25
2012
Who Inherited The Better Farm System?
An article by 
In one of yesterday’s posts, I saw a little debate pop up as to which GM inherited a better farm system between Omar Minaya and Sandy Alderson. In my mind, the perception was that Alderson had a significantly stronger base of prospects to work with than Minaya did, but I decided to see what I could dig up to support that perception.
I decided to go to the ultimate authority on prospects and minor league systems, Baseball America to see what the Mets top prospects looked like in the periods 2004-2005 compared to 2010-2011. Take a look…
Minaya was unable to reap even one everyday player from the farm system he inherited. Carlos Gomez lasted one season as an everyday player until the .244 career hitter settled into a reserve role with different organizations. Philip Humber had his one moment in the sun when he tossed a perfect game for the White Sox in April, but he’s been one of the league’s worst pitchers since and boasts a 5.93 ERA this season. Jesus Flores? He’s batting .222 as a backup catcher for the Washington Nationals these days. That’s it.
Alderson has reaped five everyday players already in Ike Davis, Jon Niese, Josh Thole, Ruben Tejada and Matt Harvey. Plus based on comments made yesterday and today by Alderson and Terry Collins, you can count Lucas Duda and Jenrry Mejia as everyday players beginning on September 1st and continuing onto the 2013 season. Wilmer Flores, has now become the top hitting prospect in the Mets system and could possibly debut late in 2013 as well. Kirk Nieuwenhuis has an undefined role going forward, but is not completely out of the picture for the starting center field job next season. Harvey and Tejada could be future All Stars, and Ike Davis could become one of the best power-hitting first basemen in the league and is already a Gold Glove caliber defender. Jon Niese was so highly regarded by Alderson that he quickly locked up his prized southpaw to a five-year deal this season.
I think this settles which general manager inherited the better system. And it’s not even close…
Omar Minaya left Sandy Alderson with a strong bounty to build with including potential core players in Matt Harvey, Ruben Tejada and Jon Niese.
In fact, the other day, Mike Francesa asked Sandy Alderson when the Mets were ever going to be “his” team.
Alderson replied, “What do you mean… This is my team.”
The point Francesa was making, much like the last two seasons, sailed completely over Sandy Alderson’s head.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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awesome study. omar got all kinds of crap but he did turn the team around faster than it could have been expected considering the lack of talent in the minors. maybe Omar should be cut some slack. I am no omar lover. I dont believe he did a good job as GM but he isnt the antichrist GM that many have portrayed him as. His problem was not being able to sustain the product once he built it up. an over reliance on Latinos past their prime (Alou, Castillo, Perez, Valentin, El Duque, etc) led to the team’s demise. lets hope Sandy is speaking the truth saying he sees the moves need to be made and lets hope even more that he has the ability to make the right moves to get us back on top.
To be fair – if you’re going to count guys like Ike, Niese, Tejada, Thole (really?) against Alderson as inheriting young ready players – don’t you have to include the inheritance of a 21 year old Jose Reyes and 22 year old David Wright?
I mean that has to be counted no?
We really don’t know how good the “inherited” farm is for Alderson yet. If you asked us in 05 we’d all have thought Lastings was gonna be a quality big leaguer right?
So I can’t really weigh guys like Mejia, Flores etc yet.
The thing I find interesting is no matter what – Alderson will never, ever get credit for any of the young players he inherited. Even though they are focusing as in his own words on the development of young players and scouting etc. We’ll never know if something they did helped a kid like say Wilmer Flores (just an example) – so no matter what Minaya will get credit for them.
To me its about the development not the draft.
They were already established players. I used a two year window for both of them. Take it up with Baseball America. We can take this game further and say Minaya left Alderson with Reyes and Beltran too who had MVP caliber seasons in 2011. Lets just stick with the facts as evidenced by Baseball America’s list. They have no reason to be biased.
By the way, Minaya did have a hand in scouting and signing Reyes didn’t he?
Yes he did.
Eddy Toledo and Juan Mercado found Reyes and brought him to Minaya and until Duquette heard the Cubs were interested he wasn’t going to get signed.
And it was Jim D who put Reyes in Kingsport right away rather than Dominican League right?
Omar Minaya didn’t “find” Reyes. I think when you say that you make it sound like Minaya sat through practices and brought this kid nobody knew to the Mets.
Toledo was the guy who discovered him and Toledo was not a Minaya hire either – so you can’t even give him credit for bringing Toledo to the Mets.
Toledo was allowed to walk in 2006 (who was the GM then?) to go work for Tampa Bay in the same exact role because Minaya wanted his guy Pena in there.
So I think its terribly easy and unfair to act as though Jose Reyes would not be a Met without Minaya. The truth is if Minaya was the GM at the time Reyes was found – he would have gone elsewhere because Minaya replaced Toledo (Cashen/Joe M hire) with his own guy.
One GM was smart enough to keep Reyes, the other saw fit to let him go for comp picks.
1st, I did not say he”found” Reyes. Joe D said he had “a hand in scouting or signing Reyes”(his exact words), and he is correct:
“It was Minaya’s eye for talent — he scouted and signed several star players including Sammy Sosa and Jose Reyes”
http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20040930&content_id=876515&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym
“The son of two schoolteachers in Monte Cristo, Dominican Republic, Cruz was signed at 18 by the Mets’ international scouting team of Omar Minaya and Eddy Toledo (who also signed Jose Reyes, the Mets’ shortstop). ”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/sports/baseball/late-sudden-unsurprising-the-emergence-of-nelson-cruz.html?_r=1
Yes, there were other people invloved with Reyes, however, Minaya DID have a hand in it, and it’s an Indisputable fact.
No you’re wrong. Straight from Minaya’s mouth, it was Toledo who Minaya gave all the credit to. It was Toledo and Mercado who actually went to Santiago to a baseball camp. Minaya wasn’t even there.
Omar also said that he had to approve of the signing. So obvioulsy, since he had a to approve of the signing means he had a hand in the signing. Joe D is correct.
Maybe someone else in Omar’s postion wouldn’t approve of it? Omar saw that Reyes was a special talent, so he approved of the signing.
He had a hand in the signing, and it’s an indisputable fact.
Duquette approved it after denying the first attempt. That’s the indisputable fact not the other way around. Relaying an approval for a signing bonus is not having a hand in the signing. He didn’t have the authority to approve it wiithout permission.
“Eddy really was the one who did a great job. I kind of oversaw the department. And Eddy called me, because before he signed him, I had to approve him. When I first saw Reyes, I thought he was the kind of player that was important in the organization – a more athletic player. But I think all the credit should go to Eddy Toledo.
Hi Jessep,
I know this is getting off the subject but because you are right to quote Omar as you did, it also raises the point many of us make about the Alderson/Rigney situation at Oakland.
Omar being the one who had the authority to approve the signing of Reyes means his role was administrative and he was not involved in the scouting, evaluation and decision that led to the recommendation to sign him. That is the same point our side of the fence makes about Alderson regarding player personnel decisions – that his role too was administrative and he was not involved in the scouting, evaluation and decision that led to the recommendations to make those moves. He too acknowledged Bill Rigney’s role in player personnel decisions Upon Rigney’s passing. Sandy said:
“When you talk about people who have contributed to our success, you have to single out Bill Rigney. His contributions have been enormous. He has been involved in every one of our player acquisitions since I came here in 1982. I’ve watched 600 or 700 games with Bill, and it’s been an education.”
That is why I am glad you used Omar’s actual words to justify your position on the Reyes signing. It shows the same set of principles must also be applied to what Sandy said when he singled out Bill Rigney. When he talked about “our success” he was talking about the contributions made to the organization, not to himself.
Hi Jessep,
I know this is getting off the subject but because you are right to quote Omar as you did, it also raises the point many of us make about the Alderson/Rigney situation at Oakland
Who’s many? I know of two people who don’t know what they’re talking about and totally speculating about Bill Rigney being the one in charge of personnel decisions in Oakland. And what exactly does it have to do with this?
“Omar being the one who had the authority to approve the signing of Reyes means his role was administrative and he was not involved in the scouting, evaluation and decision that led to the recommendation to sign him”.
No Omar didn’t have the authority to approve the signing of Reyes which is why he was asked to get permission to sign him. Omar was the Assistant GM not the GM. Steve Phillips was the GM so to compare Omar’s role with the 99 Mets and Aldersons Role with the 83-97 A’s is apples to oranges.
“That is the same point our side of the fence makes about Alderson regarding player personnel decisions – that his role too was administrative and he was not involved in the scouting, evaluation and decision that led to the recommendations to make those moves”.
No he was the GM and VP of baseball Ops he was not a scout. he never scouted those players and no one has ever given him credit for scouting any of them. He was in charge of player personell decisions with input from his entire staff. How many fkn times do we need to go over this???
” He Too acknowledged Bill Rigney’s role in player personnel decisions Upon Rigney’s passing. Sandy said:
“When you talk about people who have contributed to our success, you have to single out Bill Rigney. His contributions have been enormous. He has been involved in every one of our player acquisitions since I came here in 1982. I’ve watched 600 or 700 games with Bill, and it’s been an education.”
Again how many fkn times do we have to go over this. Rigney was involved in the decision making process he was not in charge of it. Do you have anything else you can talk about besides trying to make up something that Bill Rigney did not do. Bill Rigney would’ve been hired to be the GM and Alderson would’ve been left as legal counsel if what you’re trying to pass of was true.
“That is why I am glad you used Omar’s actual words to justify your position on the Reyes signing. It shows the same set of principles must also be applied to what Sandy said when he singled out Bill Rigney. When he talked about “our success” he was talking about the contributions made to the organization, not to himself”
One has nothing to do with the other. This entire debate has nothing to do with what Sandy Alderson did with the Oakland A’s. Nothing what so ever.
Please come up with some new material besides a false theory that Bill Rigney was the man who built the 80′s A’s and the Carlos Beltran trade. Just say you hate Sandy Alderson’s fkn guts instead of trying to make something up that happened almost 30 years ago.
Bill Rigney a speciall assistant to President Roy Eisenhardt and Broadcaster was not the GM or in charge of player personnel. He was also a special assistant to Alderson in 89, not the other way around. He was a consultant. I’ll say it for the 400th time just in case the other 399 times didn’t get through to your thick headed skull which obviously it didn’t.
If your saying Omar wasn’t involved and didn’t have a hand in the signing, then that’s just flat out wrong.
Yes, we all understand that there were other guys that were involved and some guys who may have been more responsible for Reyes than Minaya – We all get that. However, without Omar seeing something and Reyes and giving his approval, Reyes would have never been a New York Met.
So he absolutley had a hand in the signing.
No Omar had to get the approval from Duquette who had to get the approval from Phillips. If anything Reyes goes on Phillips ledger. Omar relayed the approval. Without Toledo and Cruz, Reyes is a Cub. Originally Duquette said no. I can’t give someone credit for signing someone who just got an approval from his boss and relayed it. What Minaya saw is what Toledo told him. Minaya did not go and see him play, Mercado and Toledo did. Omar said it was Toledo, Duquette said it was Toledo and Phillips said it was Toledo. That’s al there is to it.
That’s not what he said.
Omar said HE had to approve. He said he saw reyes and thought he was the kind of player that was improtant to an orginazation. And if what Minaya saw was just what he was told, then he wouldn’t have said, “when I 1st saw Reyes”. That sounds like he seen Reyes in person. He also said he oversaw the department, so how could he not be involved?
If you want to give Toledo credit go ahead. But you have to realize there was other people involved, and Omar was one of them.
“Yes, it was devoid of bulk, but it was springy and elastic and loaded with potential. Toledo’s boss back then, assistant GM Omar Minaya, valued raw athleticism. The Mets weren’t hurting for cash, and Minaya, inherently aggressive, rarely shied away from risk. So when Toledo called and told him of the unremarkable skill set of the kid he thought could maybe, one day, be remarkable, Minaya gave him the green light.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3647259
“Jose had worked out for several other clubs, but he failed to grab anyone’s attention. Toledo—who had also discovered Octavio Dotel and Quilvio Veras—urged Omar Minaya, who headed up New York’s international scouting, to let him sign the scrawny teen. Minaya consulted assistant GM Jim Duquette, but he hesitated after seeing Jose’s height and weight. When Duquette heard that the Chicago Cubs were sniffing around, however, he had a change of heart.”
http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Reyes/Reyes_bio.html
“Montreal Expos general manager Omar Minaya was in charge of the Mets’ international operations in 1999 when scout Eddy Toledo urged him to sign Reyes. The Mets did not like spending $15,000 for a scrawny teen. But after the Chicago Cubs showed interest, Toledo and Minaya won out.”
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/minors/2002-09-18-reyes-minor-leaguer_x.htm
There is no arguing it. Article after article from all different sites say that Omar was involved – Mets.com, ESPN, NY Times, and USA Today, all say Omar was involved. The only ones saying he wasn’t is you and Jessep – And sorry, but I trust them more than you. And even though Minaya credits Toledo, judging by what he also said, it is CLEAR that he was involved – He said he saw Reyes and valued him, and oversaw the department.
If you want to give credit to Toledo, go right ahead. But you have to realize that Toledo wasn’t the only guy involved. And one of the other people who was involved was Minaya.
I just sent a comment and it didn’t show for whatever reason. I’ll try again though.
“Toledo’s boss back then, assistant GM Omar Minaya, valued raw athleticism. The Mets weren’t hurting for cash, and Minaya, inherently aggressive, rarely shied away from risk. So when Toledo called and told him of the unremarkable skill set of the kid he thought could maybe, one day, be remarkable, Minaya gave him the green light.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3647259
“Toledo—who had also discovered Octavio Dotel and Quilvio Veras—urged Omar Minaya, who headed up New York’s international scouting, to let him sign the scrawny teen. Minaya consulted assistant GM Jim Duquette, but he hesitated after seeing Jose’s height and weight. When Duquette heard that the Chicago Cubs were sniffing around, however, he had a change of heart.”
http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Reyes/Reyes_bio.html
“Montreal Expos general manager Omar Minaya was in charge of the Mets’ international operations in 1999 when scout Eddy Toledo urged him to sign Reyes. The Mets did not like spending $15,000 for a scrawny teen. But after the Chicago Cubs showed interest, Toledo and Minaya won out.”
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/minors/2002-09-18-reyes-minor-leaguer_x.htm
I have that same problem with sending comments. It doesn’t appear and when you try to resend it you get “Duplicate comment you have already said that” but nothing shows up. Only with certain links.
Again it was Duquette who gave that approval.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/sports/baseball/mets-eyes-are-on-reyes-as-free-agency-begins.html?_r=1
I remember the scout, Eddy Toledo, called me, and he really didn’t call me very often,” said Duquette, an assistant general manager for the Mets at the time. “But he just said, ‘I got a special one.’ ”
So after Minaya originally was turned down by Duquette, according to Duquette Toledo called him personally. And if Minaya was in NY how did he see him play in the DR before they signed him? That statement could be after they signed him. In the end straight from Minaya’s mouth he said all the credit should go to Eddy and straight from Duquettes mouth Toledo called him personally to tell him about Jose, even in your link it says Duquette balked until he heard the Cubs were in on him, so I can’t say that a guy who was urged by a scout to get an approval is involved in bring a player into the organization. Saying he would not have been a Met if Omar wasn’t with the team is false.
You really take a half a sentence and put anthe book behind it and call it fact!
He called Duquette AFTER Omar approved the signing!
He didn’t need Duquette’s approval he already had approval from Duquette’s boss Omar!
And YES toledo gets credit! You say no one else? FINE!
No one above a Scout or someone who hired him gets credit for any player!
Now tell us which of the 2011 Draft class was found by the two scouts we hired that year and which are all credited to Omar because he hired the majority of the scouts we had at th time!
McDonald is just another Omar. Didn’t hire the scouts and gets no credit!
Thats what you guys are saying about Omar we will apply it to Sandy and see you all of a sudden cry UNFAIR!
A boss doen’t have to ask his subordinate for permission to do things.
Omar was Duqutte’s Boss but you eep lying and saying otherwise!
“You really take a half a sentence and put anthe book behind it and call it fact!
He called Duquette AFTER Omar approved the signing!
“He didn’t need Duquette’s approval he already had approval from Duquette’s boss Omar!”
The biggest liar to comment on this site as the nerve to call someone else a liar. Nowhere in that article did it say He called Douquette after the signing. He absolutely needed Duquettes approa or else Omar would’ve approved when Toledo first called him and he wouldn’ have had to get the okay fom Duquette who said no at first and then changed his tune after he found out the Cubs were in on him.
If you can’t have an honest debate without making things up and calling people what you are which is a liar then just move along when you see any comments from me. Your twisting of words from other peoples comments and flat out lies are an embarrassment. All you do is make yourself look worse and uninformed.
Nowhere did it say he called Duquette before they signed him either!
Since you digressed and decided to call me a Liar I expect JoeD to note who started this and excuse the reply that will surely come from something you started!
Your the only liar here trying to insinutate Duquette was Omar’s boss when the truth is it was the other way around!
Is that why you made a comment about me being unemployed before any of this debate started from another thread.
Yeah I’m sure Toledo called Duquette to tell him about Reyes after he signed him. Whatever you wanna believe. Whatever you wanna make up and whatever you wanna twist. Enjoy!
And before that you have called me far worse and constantly accuse us of lying whenever your facts trip you up!
So stop trying to play the angel accept Joe’s warning and be done with it!
The article I showed said that Omar consulted Duquette about Reyes, so he obviously was involved with the decsison that was made. Every article I showed said that Omar had some involvement with Reyes, and sorry, but I’ll believe them over you and Jessep. And all those articles say Omar was encharge of the Mets international scouting at the time.
So saying that the guy who was encharge of the Mets international scouting wasn’t involved with one of the international signings, when article after article say he was, is ludicrous.
And go ahead, give credit to Toledo. But what I’m saying is that there was other people involved, and one of those people was Minaya. There’s just no arguing it.
If getting an okay from his boss and passing it on to the scouts who did the actual scouting is involvement then Bravo Omar. You’re one hell of an approval passer. And I’ll take Omar and Douquettes assessment over yours. Because it appears from Jim Douquette, Toledo called Douquette himself so that tells me he went right over Omars head and straight to the source after Douquette originally said no. His words not mine. You made it sound is if Omar went to go see him after Toledo called him to tell him about Jose. I guess you an say the receptionist who answered Toledo’s call and passed t to Omar was also involved.
Hey then Neither Sandy or McDonald get credit in your credit system either since they did no more than Omar did!
As for Toledo calling Duqette that was AFTER he had already signed Reyes and called Duquette to get him assigned to a farm system!
Get him his Visa, Housing, and figuring out where it was he needed to go to start his Mets career!
But you keep pushing the point Omar had nothing to do with Reyes and shouldn’t get credit and we will use that standard on Sandy and mcDonald and remove thier credit as well!
Your Choice dude!
Article after article from all different sites says that Omar Minaya was involved. So your telling me they are all wrong?
Mets.com, ESPN, and USA Today all got it wrong but you and Jessep have it right? I’m not going to believe that.
I have unbiased sources that say Omar was involved. And what do you have to back up your claim? A few quotes that didn’t even say that Omar wasn’t involved. Omar gave credit to Toledo, but he didn’t say he wasn’t involved, in fact, he said he oversaw the scouting deparment at that time and saw Reyes and valued him – So that quote actually backs up what I’ve been saying all along.
Vinny, saw your comment about a post you made not appearing. I just pulled it out of spam. Dont know why it did that. Sorry.
Again, my comment didn’t appear. UGH.
Fonzie, article after article from unbiased sources ALL say Omar was involved. The only two people in the entire universe that are saying he wasn’t involved are you and Jessep. Even the quotes you showed don’t say Omar wasn’t involved.
Omar said that Toledo should get credit, but he didn’t say that he wasn’t involved. In fact, he said he oversaw the scouting deparment and saw Reyes and valued him. So, even that quote actually backs up my point about Omar being involved.
You have shown nothing to prove Omar wasn’t involved, and I have numerous unbiased sources that all say Omar was involved and did more than just get an ok from a boss.
As for Toledo calling Duqette that was AFTER he had already signed Reyes and called Duquette to get him assigned to a farm system!
Get him his Visa, Housing, and figuring out where it was he needed to go to start his Mets career!
Just proved my point when I say you make things up. Get him his Visa.
Last time on the subject.
Orignal comment by Joe D
By the way, Minaya did have a hand in scouting and signing Reyes didn’t he?
A hand in scouting and signing means he was there scouting him with Mercado and Toledo and that he actually gave the go ahead from the get go. He wasn’t there. He was in NY when he took the call. And he had to get approval. Got it after a 2nd attempt.
When did he see Reyes? Do you have that info? After they signed him? When they brought him to the states.
Did Toledo send him an email with video clips or was he going by what he scouts told him?
It went from having a hand to souting and signing him to he as involved in getting him signed and you also said he wouldn’t have been a Met without Minaya which was not the case. If Duquette doesn’t approve it in the end he’s never a Met. He’s a Met whether Minaya was there or not. He’s a Cub if not for Toledo.
If he was at the camp with the scouts then I would say he had a hand in it. He got an approval from his boss because of what his scouts told him. Saying he’s involved for getting approval from Duquette who originally said no is not having a hand in scouting and signing him.
Joe that’s been happening to me too.
There’s just no arguing it – Omar was involved. Article after article from all different sites say that Omar was involved – Mets.com, ESPN, USA Today, and the NY Times, ALL say that Minaya had some involvement with the signing of Jose Reyes. The only people saying he wasn’t involved is you and Jessep. Are you going to tell me that all those sites got it wrong, and you two are the only ones in the world that have it right? Sorry, but I trust those sites more than you and Jessep. Especially on a subject about Minaya.
And even though Minaya gave credit to Toldedo, judging by his words, it was CLEAR that he was involved – Minaya said that he saw Reyes and valued him, and oversaw the deparment at that time – So he was involved – There’s no doubt about it.
No he did not. It was Juan Mercado and Eddie Toledo who scouted and signed him. Minaya who was in NY, got the okay from Jim Duqette who got the okay from Steve Phillips for his signing bonus and relayed the okay to Toledo. That’s a fact.
Minaya was above Duquette in the organization at the time so the Liar Liar pants on fire script you rely on for everything won’t work here!
All Duquette did at the time was run the Farm!
Omar was in charge of International scouting!
But don;t let facts stop you from embarassing yourself further!
Okay Metsie show proof that Omar was involved in any way other than relaying the okay to Toledo from his boss. It was Mercado and Toledo. Minaya was in NY while they were scouting Reyes.
http://baseball.wikia.com/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Reyes
You didn’t show anything. No mention of Jose Reyes in that link at all. My link shows who, how, when and where he was signed.
I read up on Eddy Toledo and read that his title was Latin America Scout. Who did he report to?
Doesn’t matter who he reported to. The debate was who was responsible for scouting and signing Reyes. Eddy Toledo and Juan Mercado. If anything Reyes goes on Steve Phillips Ledger not Omar Minaya’s.
Just like Minaya is getting credit for Mejia, Familia, Lagares, Puello, Flores, Tejada and Marte even though the scout that signed them was Ismeal Cruz. He reported to Ramon Pena but you won’t hear Pena’s name mentioned as being responsible for those players.
Exactly – you cannot have it both ways. You can’t give Minaya credit for a kid like Tejada and also Reyes.
Because then all you’re doing is blindly giving him credit because of a role he once played.
The bottom line and truth of it is – Without Eddy Toledo, Jose Reyes would have never been a met.
Toledo was hired by Frank Cashen, had already an established record as a great international scout and in 2006 – Omar Minaya allowed him to walk out the door for the SAME JOB with Tampa Bay.
Yet in Omar’s own words – Toledo deserves all the credit for Reyes.
All Minaya did was say “ok” and before he said ok, he needed Jim D on his side as well and Jim D said ok when he heard the Cubs might be interested.
So if Minaya gets credit for Reyes – so does Jim Duquette.
But neither had anything to do with it
LOL it’ you two that want it both ways!
You don’t want to give Omar credit for being the guy in charge of Intl scouting credit but you want points taken off for that guy they signed while he was running those scouts for still being there!
And then go on and give Sandy credit for every draft pick we have made since 2011 when the guys who made those selections were hired by Omar and the only draft totally under Sady’s hiring we failed to sign half those picks!
Your attempts to run around in circles got you lost and took you someplace you REALLY didn’t want to go!
You see we recognize your attempts to double standard things but we apply YOUR standards to both and STILL come out ahead!
Not to mention the subterfuge and subject changing being exhibited in a conversation of who started off with a better MiL system and you have avoided it or tried to avoid it using subjects like:
Who Hired Who
How Much Money was spent,
Who was on the MLB team
and competly ignoring the talent mentioned and compared in the article!
Omar!
I guess by Fonzies standards that Sandy isn’t responsible for Nimmo or Wheeler since he didn’t scout either of them!
Just ignore him he will change positons three or four times before the next sun comes up anyway.
That’s exactly right actually with regard to Nimmo. How many times have I said it? The GM has little to do with the amateur draft. That is why you have a director of amateur scouting. That’s their job. Their job is to manage all scouts and read all of their scouting reports and manage the draft room.
The GM certainly has more input in a 1st round pick… but you can bet when it comes to later rounds he relies more on the people that he hires to scout to make the decisions.
No Nimmo was scouted and drafted by Chad McDonald. Alderson did not overrule the pick which had been rumored to be their pick for 2 months. So you can say that Sandy didn’t have anything to do with that pick at all unless he would’ve overruled McDonald’s reccommendation which he didn’t.
Wheeler was drafted by the Giants so don’t see why you even bring him up. Sandy traded for him he didn’t draft, scout or sign him.
Wrong McDonald was not a scout for us he was no different than Omar was!
Since he did not hire the scout who found him either then he gets as much credit for Nimmo as Omar gets for Reyes!
And if you try to change that standard we will apply your changes to Omar as well!
Most of the guys drafted were found by scouts Omar hired not McDonald that makes the 2011 Draft all Omars not Sandy’s!
This is what you have done all in the name of removing Reyes from Omars record!
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/sports/baseball/mets-eyes-are-on-reyes-as-free-agency-begins.html
“I remember the scout, Eddy Toledo, called me, and he really didn’t call me very often,” said Duquette, an assistant general manager for the Mets at the time. “But he just said, ‘I got a special one.’ ”
Oh I got an even better one than that!
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2004-10-03/sports/18273207_1_hispanic-heritage-management-skills-jerry-manuel/2
Question:
Eddy Toledo, the scout, signed Jose Reyes. But you get credit for being involved with bringing Reyes to the organization when he was only 16. What do you remember about a young Reyes?
Answer from OMAR MINAYA:
Eddy really was the one who did a great job. I kind of oversaw the department. And Eddy called me, because before he signed him, I had to approve him. When I first saw Reyes, I thought he was the kind of player that was important in the organization – a more athletic player. But I think all the credit should go to Eddy Toledo.
And in 2006 – The Mets let Eddy Toledo who OMAR MINAYA SAYS deserves ALL the credit for Jose Reyes. And in 2006 – the GM of the Mets was – who?
Yeah thats why he was promoited to SENIOR AGM not Duquette twoyears later!
Face it boys you got caught in your fantasy!
Omar was with the scouts all Duquette did was run the farm!
Since Reyes wasn’t on the farm yet Duquette had nothing to do with his signing!
Nobody said Duquette signed him. Mercado and Toledo scouted and signed him. Indisputable fact.
Backtracking now?
Did you not say this earlier?
“Minaya who was in NY, got the okay from Jim Duqette who got the okay from Steve Phillips”
“Okay Metsie show proof that Omar was involved in any way other than relaying the okay to Toledo from his boss”
No you didn’t say he signed him you just said Duquette was his boss he wasn’t!
Omar was Duquettes boss a point proved to you when Omar got the SENIOR AGm title who you claim would mean his BOSS reported to his subordinate!!
This is what I said.
Fonzie13 August 25, 2012 at 1:38 pm .
No he did not. It was Juan Mercado and Eddie Toledo who scouted and signed him. Minaya who was in NY, got the okay from Jim Duqette who got the okay from Steve Phillips for his signing bonus and relayed the okay to Toledo.
I didn’t say who was who’s boss. I said No Minaya did not scout or sign Reyes. It was Juan Mercado and Eddie Toledo. Minaya relayed the okay from Phiilips through Duquette. Who was the boss of who is irrelevant. We’re talking about who brought Reyes into the organization.
So 1 guy is in charge of International Scouting
The other is the FARM DIRECTOR and DIRECTOR of PLAYER PERSONNEL
Which means (if you use logic)
International Scouts find player A
They tell their boss
Their boss goes to the farm director and the person in charge of player personnel
Player personnel gives go ahead for the signing
I showed you multiple spots where Minaya had nothing to do with the scouting of Reyes. Nothing. Scouts he didn’t hire found him, and it was Duquette who gave the go ahead on SIGNING the player.
It went
Scout tells boss, boss goes to guy who is in charge of the farm and player personel, guy who is in charge of personnel decides to sign or not sign
Stop trying to act like you got anybody.
I have a quote above from Omar saying he deserves NO credit for Reyes. His words.
The Dir of Int’l Scouting doesn’t sign players without the farm director and player personnel director giving the approval. Fact.
Nice story if only it were true!
Omar was Duqutte’s boss! Showed you this and you ignored it!
WHy was Duquette not the senior GM over Minaya if he was his boss?
No your wrong!
First off in trying to cnvince ayone that Duquette was Omar’s boss…Phillips as his boss not Duquette!
Second the only reason to call Duquette is to arrange for housing and assignment of a player that has already been signed!
So he called him to issue ORDERSW not get permission as you suggest!
Omar was in charge of pretty much all of the scouting since 1997, Duquette in charge of those kids they deemed worthy of signing. Duquette as an assitant merely reported to Phillips on how the farm and the players already signed were doing!
And in two years from the time Reyes was signed he then reported to Omar as the “SENIOR” GM” not Phillips unless Phillips had no interns to bang that day and wanted a direct report from the horses mouth!
SO here is how it REALLY went!
Toledo went to Omar
Omar may have or may not have had to go to Phillips to say I want to sign him.
He got the OK from Phillips or didn’t need it.
Toledo signs him.
Omar tells Toledo call JimD and tell him to expect a kid he needs to assign and deal with.
Reyes is a MET!
And if you keep sticking to this need to remove Reyes fro m Omar’s record by changing the standards being used to assign credit your also going to lose the ebntire 2011 draft from Sandy and his Scouting Director’s resume because all of the scouts who found those guys were Omar hired scouts!
IS that what you want?
Truth is you probably should! Cause if this FO picks kids the way it picks FAs then the entire 2011 draft and the half a draft we signed from 2012 are very likely busts as well!
Hmmmm Ok I see what your trying to say….
Guess what then the entire 2011 draft goes on Omar’s record because a guy who Sandy didn’t hire (Omar did) made all the choices on who to pick and who to sign meaning that so far Sandy has a half of draft to credit him with in the future.
That what you want mr Semantical Boxer?
Hmmm? Wqnt to continue with this diversionary who hired who tactic?
I’ll apply it to Terry Collins next!
Actually the scout that found Cory Mazzoni was an Omar holdover, Ian McPhail but otherwise Most of the 2011 picks get credited to Chad McDonald even more so than DePodesta. There were also scouts that were holdovers during Minaya’s tenure.
Chad McDonald is not a scout!
So he gets no credit for running the scouts he didn’t hire just as Omar doesn’t get credit for Toledo who he didn’t hire!
He gets hired in December
Draft is in June…
How many months and whose scouting reports did he use to make his decisions?
Who hired the majority of scouts under him?
You think the diamonbacks just let Chad clone thier Hard drive of all scouting reports to use in the 2011 draft?
Really?
Sorry to both of you but McDonald is not a scout he is the same thing Omar was to Intl scouting!
Since he did not hire all the scouts (they only hired two one the nepotism hiring of Sandy’s son!) McDonald gets no credit just as Omar gets no credit for not hiring toledo despite the fact he was in Mcdonalds position as fas as Intl goes!
I know you both know this and the only reason why Jessup has given up is because he knows I used his own Omar standard used to remove Reyes off his resume to remove an entire draft from Sandy because he didnt’t hire the scouts they used either!
Actually the scout that recommended Mazzoni was Marlin McPhail not Ian McPhail. He’s also responsible for Josh Edgin, Reese Havens, Bobby Parnell,Ty Wigginton, Dylan Owen, DJ Wabick, Mike Antonnini, Jeremy Gould and an some guy Matt Harvey. He’s actually been here before Omar.
Right Fonz but he said “the guy who made the picks” meaning the Dir of Amateur Scouting.
Which is 100% false. The guy making the picks since Alderson has been here have been guys hired by Alderson.
But YOU said it doesn’t matter who runs the scouts only the SCOUT and who hired them gets Credit!
So in your rush to get Reyes off Omar’s resume you lost an entire draft on Sandy’s resume!
YOUR STANDARD! Your mistake!
All because your too afraid to have Reyes credited to Omar!
Omar had a very importantant role. Minya was the Director of Scouting in DR. Tulo the scount found Jose Reyes. He told Minya. Minya told assistant GM to Steve Phillips who was Jim Duquette who said NO we will not sign him. Minya went back to Duquette and said the Cubs have scouts sniffing around Reyes. Begrudingly Duequette agreed. I think it was somehing like $20,000. End of story.
YES, HOWEVER BOTH F-MASRT & GOGO GOMEZ WERE INKED BY MINAYA AS 16YR OLDS IN HID FIRST YR AS GM. I BRLIEVE U CAN LOOK IT UP AS I DISTINCTLY RECAL GETTING A CAN OF CRAP OVER ROBBING THE CRADLE FROM MY NYY IDEALOGUE COUSIN VER BOTH OF THEM.
BY FAR OMAR ESTABLISHED THE FARM BETTER THAN PHILLIPS EVER DID WHILE DUQUETTE/JEFFY COMBINED TO DECIMASTE IT.
I’VE LONG HELD A BELIEF THAT FLORES WAS LOST DUE TO A TRAITOROUS ACT BY OUR FORMER FARM DIRECTOR, WHO’D BEEN AN ACTA SUPPORTER OVER RANDOLPH SO WHEN ACTA WAS ALLOWED TO LWAVE FOR DC HE GAVE THE HEADS UP ON THIS TOP SINGLE A CATCHING PROSPECT FEW COULD ANTICIPATE ANYONE SNATCHING AS A RULE 5 BEING A BASEBALL INFANT KEPT ON THE MLB ROSTER FOR AN ENTIRE YR.. U KNOW THE ‘AH’ WHO COULDN’T “KEEP HIS SHIRT ON”
Joe, how do you consider Wright and Reyes established big leaguers prior to the 2005 season when Wright was just called up in 2004 for less than half a season and Reyes hadn’t even played close to a full season yet but you include Niese, Thole, Tejada and Ike Davis as prosepects Alderson inherited who all played the season beforehe came aboard, Niese up with the team even 3 years before?
You can’t say that Wright and Reyes were established MLB players when both had their first full seasons in 2005.
And you’re also forgetting the not too shabby everyday players Omar picked up with that mediocre farm system he inherited. Delgado, LoDuca, Johan and Duaner Sanchez were acquired using inherited trade chips. Humber drafed in 04 and the centerpiece of the Johan.deal.
You can say Alderson has inherited more players with higher upside but you can’t even compare the 2 situations they walked into.
Omar took over a team with 2 young emerging stars and a lot of expiring contracts and Alderson took over a mess of a team with bloated contracts and underperorming stars and had to cut payroll. 2 entirely different situations.
I doubt one GM of the other 29 teams would rather inherit Aldersons 2011 team and financial picture ahead of the 2005 team and their financial picture. It’s a no brainer.
Fonzie, first in case you are wondering. I was banned from the shoutbox without even an email explaining why. I never insulted anyone other than pointing out obvious baiting and bias. Anyway, enough on that. Let me jump in here and answer something because I know you subscribe to BA like me. They have strict guidelines as to what determines a players prospect status as you know. Once that barrier is passed they are considered major leaguers and no longer prospects. How can you count Reyes and Wright as part of the farm when they were no longer a part of the farm by BA standards? How can you make a fair assessment if you don’t stick to one standard and in this particular case a tried and true standard? Alderson inherited a better farm system and in fact he even inherited a better active roster as well. If you want to say Minaya inherited a farm system plus Reyes and Wright, than you have to say Alderson inherited a better farm system plus Reyes, Wright, Beltran, Dickey who have been all stars under Alderson. It goes both ways. That’s why you have to stick to one standard, the same as Baseball America. It’s the only way to compare without any bias IMO.
Wow Maniac I’m sorry to hear that. I didn’t know you were banned from the shoutbox. I actually don’t subscribe to BA to be honest.
I agree that Alderson inherited a better farm system than Minaya did but besides BA’s guidelines I still have a hard time considering both Wright and Reyes established MLB players heading into the 2005 season.
Wouldn’t Ike Davis be considered and Jon Niese be considered established MLB players since both played the entire 2010 season except ike who came up after the 12th game of the season.
I think there’s a big difference inheriting a 34 year old Beltran coming off 2 years in which he missed half those seasons and didn’t even play in ST until the last 5 games of grapefruit leagua ball and in his walk year as opposed to being able to sign a young 27 year old Beltran coming off a monster year with Houston and record setting postseason.
My point of contention is while Omar inherited a weaker farm, he did in inherit 2 young stars and expiring contracts with flexibilty where he went out and signed Beltran and Pedro and also had offers to Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Delgado on the table that both turned down. Can you imagine the buzz around NYC if all 4 of those guys inked with the team in one offseason. Alderson didn’t have the luxury to bring in one guy like that let alone try and sign 4 stars and ending up with 2.
“If you asked us in 05 we’d all have thought Lastings was gonna be a quality big leaguer right?”
But now we have a larger group of quality prospects. So, if one of our guys busts(and I’m sure some will), we still have other young players that can be prodcutive.
That’s the difference between now and then.
Yeah I guess Reyes and Wright is better than being left with the SAME Reyes and Wright plus K-Rod and Beltran.
Three of them are gone and so far all we have to show for them is Wheeler!
Yes I would much rather have had a 21 year old Reyes, 22 year old Wright and a 27 year old Beltran who just came off a monsterous year with Houston and stepping into his prime, with a lot of payroll flexibility over the 2011 Wright who just came off 2 years of regression, Reyes who just missed almost an entire 2009, a lousy 2010, also missing a lot of games and a 34 year old Beltran in his walk year with bad knees who just missed more than half of the previous 2 years, a dud in Jason bay, Ollie and Castillo, no Johan and no room to add payroll. There isn’t a GM in sports that would rather take over the 2011 Mets ahead of the 2005 Mets.
This argument again? Minaya was able to spend Alderson hasn’t. Minaya walked in with 2 young All Stars under reasonable control financial coming into their own. Alderson so far hasn’t. Minaya came in pre Madoff Alderson in the midst of it. We been down this road 2 different eras plus and minuses on both sides.
Actually, if this is about the draft. It was Alderson who was able to spend, not Minaya. If this is about minor league systems as the title suggests, Minaya had his hands tied on draft day, Alderson spent over slot and got whomever he wanted. That was never the case with Minaya.
Now if you want to make this about free agency, yes Minaya was able to spend. But this post seems to be about the minor league system each inherited.
Minaya I believe spent a little more in the Intl Draft where I believed at least it was going to be one of his strengths. He paid Fmart how much again? Fmart may still prove Minaya right but so far it has yet to be seen. Minaya in 6 years had little to show that came up to the Bigs as far as legit upper caliber prospects. I have been saying this forever now. His best work may be yet to come but it was too late to save the mess he did at the Big league level.
Yes, but Alderson just broke the Mets all time record in international free agent spending this season, and also the largest international bonus ever paid in Mets history.
How does this change the fact that Minaya spent what he did to sign Fmart or that his perceived strength in Latin America has yet to be seen?
Oh please with the checkbook bul!
What does how much you have to spend have to do with the Minor leaguers your left to build with?
Rather than just answering the question of who inherited the better system Metsie, some just want to say but, but, but, but, but, but, but. It’s typical on this site. A site that banned a dozen users because they were too critical of Alderson mind you.
A magician doesn’t utilize as much mis direction and slight of hand in his entire career as we see in one season to defend Sandy!
I’m glad joe posted this becuase this on one Myth and excuse that needs to be put to rest!
All the complaining about Omar wasting picks and Omar in his entire career combined has not wasted as many draft picks as Sandy did this year!
In the immortal words err word of srt. This.
MR NJ, you gotta remember, Omar was able to spend, but he didn’t increase payroll to high levels until 2007. In 2005, he increased payroll about 4 mil from the year before, in 2006 payroll actually dropped 3mil. then it went up 14mil in 2007 and 23mil in 2008 and dropped in 2mil in 2009.
I think the difference is Omar was able to spend, but he had freedom with the payroll and was able be increase it because to the success he had in 2005-06 to make the push in 2007 and beyond.
I think the lack of depth in the farm was main reason for Omars down fall. while he did a good job turning the team around, his only option to “make the push” or improve the team was to sign risky free agents. He even admits that the team got good before he planed and he was unable to let his plan play out and was more focused in finding that missing piece.
Sandy has only decreased the payroll. Omar was able to add free agents because big contracts from Pizza and Leiter came off the books and Omar spent the money other places. Sandy has let big contracts go, but hasn’t reinvested the money.
The only reason why I ever give Sandy a pass is because the financial situation he got wasn’t good and I think you need a strong farm in place to support a long run of success.
But he’s going into his third year. There is only so long we can watch this garbage and not get upset. We can sit back and blame ownership and money problems for this current mess, but the Dodgers were in worse shape than the Mets, they didn’t cut all spending…they didn’t go run and hid and say they are broke…they’ve increased spending and have built a winner.
Without going back to look through what transpired exactly the point is he was able to add about $20M in 2005 to the payroll in just 2 players Beltran and Delgado. As you say he was able to then actually increase the payroll.
Sorry USMF that should of read Beltran and Martinez*.
I guess my point is that Omar added to the payroll, but didn’t really increase payroll drastically increase it until 2007.
Omar spent the money saved from players coming off the books on other players. Alderson has had money come off the books and hasn’t reinvested in players.
Of course part of the debate is; is the decrease in payroll a restriction that ownership, money issues or self imposed on Alderson?
I’ll I’m trying to point out is that people just assume that Omar did nothing but inflate the payroll and that’s the reason for any success the team had. While Omar did spend, he actually only topped what Steve Phillips did buy about 13mil.
Let’s not also forget that Omar had his share of duds on the team when he took over. He had a old Piazza, Kris Benson, Steve Trachsel, Kaz Matsui, Victor Zambrano and Braden Looper.
Other than Wright and Reyes, Omar had very little to work with on the MLB team. That’s why he had to get a couple of starters, OF help, catcher, 1st baseman, bullpen arms and a 2nd baseman (although he got lucky with Valentin and Castillo sucked)
When is Sandy going to do anything to fill the holes with something more than scrap players?
http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm
Let’s not forget he also had Glavine and Floyd
are they on the “good” side or the “bad” side?
Glavine was good for a quality start and Floyd was good but always injured.
Well I’ll let you be the judge of that. I was never that high on Glavine but I know some feel he had his good seasons. I liked Floyd though and he did give the Mets a solid season in my opinion during Minaya’s 1st year.
The thing is you can’t under estimate what it was to have 2 up and coming All Stars under reasonable team control with the ability to immediately add the type of players Beltran and Martinez represented at that time. Now take that with the current administration coming in under the cloud of Madoff spending next to nothing in free agency due to being handcuffed with contracts some unmovable. I still have reservations if ownership will really have the ability to spend since they will be doing so for the 1st time without whatever edge Madoff provided them. I believe that they will but I am just speculating on my part. The reality is until they actually do so who really knows? No one.
I loved Floyd when healthy, I didn’t mind Glavine, he was solid, but not spectacular.
let’s be honest with this, Omar had no farm system and had some duds on the team, but a young Reyes and Wright.
Sandy got a better farm, but it’s not like he got anything fantastic either. There are some really solid players there. I’m big on Neise, I like Murph and Tejada looks to be a very nice player. Ike is still up on the air, but I feel he could rebound. Alderson got Wright, Reyes and RAD but he also got stuck with Bay, Castillo and Perez.
I think Alderson got the better team and system, but Omar was here to build a winner and could sign who he wanted…Alderson is here to get the team in the black. Sadly, it’s been proven that it is easier/safer to cut spending and make money than it is to risk a high payroll and try to make money, Alderson is running the safe bet and i feel that’s by the direction given to him from MLB.
Fair enough. I don’t necessarily agree with all you said but I’ll leave it there. I told myself that I would wait and allow at least 3 years to see the process play out and see where the Mets are at the end of it. Something I understand not easily done. Time will tell I guess if it pays off in the end.
Have a good one USMF.
fair enough, I know that three years is hard, especially seeing how good they can be.
It’s nice it have a discussion on something we don’t necessarily agree on 100%, but have the conversation respectful and civil.
Nice job here. It’s hard to believe we went to the post season in 2006 based on that, but of course Beltran and Delgado had a lot to do with that. Actually Jacobs was the chip that netted Delgado as shocking as that sounds now.
What this does do is how that Minaya was not the terrible GM he has been portrayed as by many Alderson advocates. Oddly enough, you didnt mention the fact that not once was Minaya allowed to drat over slot. Imagine if he was able to how much better the syatem would be today?
He went overslot twice. Goeddel was one, I’m forgetting the other.
Interesting that Fernando Martinez lasted through both GM’s early tenures.
Whats more interesting is how F-Mart fooled EVERYONE….Even the highly touted scouts and managers used by Baseball America!
Kudos to some of you folks, such insight and resources, I love it!
Omar’s grades:
Draft/player develpoment: C. most of the guys of this team were drafted by Omar but thats not really for the best
Trades: C. check out history: http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/5820150/16633545 the only one that worked out better than average was the trades for delgado and johan. the rest either backfired or didnt have any impact
F/A: D. pedro and beltran: good. resigning of Oliver perez, castillo, el duque, etc, Bay: horrible
international scouting: D. Tejada and Mejia are only ones to make it to bigs so far while flores, puello, urbina and Aderlin Rodriguez may make it. You would figure more of an impact since that was supposed to be his forte.
Overall i think he only gets a C. they made it to the playoffs once but that was it. He brought the Mets to relevance only to run them back into the ground
btw. as i type this Justin Turner just hit his first HR. that still gives us 7 Mets with 100 or more ABs and 3 or less HR. Could that be another reason why they cant score runs?
any thoughts?
I think that’s a fair grade as far as overall. I would go D+ or C-. That could change.
Alderson’s Grades.
Trades: D – Ramon Ramirez is a bust, Beltran having MVP season Wheeler still in minors.
Free Agents: C – Rauch (overpaid for someone coming off career worst year), Francisco (gave closer money to middle reliever with awful save ratio), Carrasco (bust),
Minor League Deals: B – Hairston, Young good minor league deals. A dozen other bad ones, but they were minor league deals so no big loss.
International Scouting: I – Spent like a drunken sailor and it will be years before we know if it was worth it all.
MLB Draft: D – Took good reaches on players he knew he could sign in 2011, big fail in 2012. Failed to sign most selections than any MLB team, couldn’t sign second rd pick, Cecchini was widely considered late first rounder, early second. Nobody from 2011 draft ready to make impact in 2013, the way Harvey did.
Overall: C-
It’s way too early to grade Alderson. You can grade the minor league system he got along with Minaya, but you cant grade him as a GM yet. That said, if he doesn’t start making some moves for next season, he may not finish out the rest of his contract. It’s time for some moves with teeth to them.
When do we start grading Alderson…I don’t like what he’s done, but I’ve given him a long leash but after the past two years of doing nothing, the leash is getting pretty short.
But I’ve said this in the past, MLB/Selig forced Alderson here to get the Mets back in the black. it was a secret /almost/MLB take over of the Mets until they get their money problems under control.
It’s already a given that Alderson won’t be here for longer than his contract, he’s admitted as much. What GM out there planing to only be around for a couple of years? Most know that they could get fired any day, but they plan to keep the job forever.
Why does it matter what kind of season Beltran is having this year? They got Wheeler for two months of Beltran who then became a signable FA thus if either party were interested they could Have resigned him. I know it hurts some to admit it but getting a guy who instanly became our top or #2 prospect for 2 months of Beltran was a good risk.
Why? Because it speaks directly to the ability of this front office to determine who is not worth having and who is!
Beltran was traded not because they could get Wheeler for him he was shopped around long before that offer was made…
He was shopped because they decided they were not going to resign him and that means they thought he was not going to be worth the price….
But this year has proved not only was he worth the price he would have been cheaper than what you were already paying for around the same production!
Beltran was not resigning with the Mets anyhow, he made that clear, so stop with the FO decided……..clearly it was a mutual opinion and instead of getting nothing, the team got a potential good MLB pitcher. This is not that hard to understand.
Hi Kay,
It’s not so cut and dry that Carlos was going to walk as he said he wanted to finish his career as a Met. It was more a case that the Mets didn’t want him to.
http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/6773844/new-york-mets-carlos-beltran-want-finish-my-career-here
Please post the quote before he got to StL that said no way he was resigning please!
Easy to say anything, But since you say he said that I suppose you have the proof to back it up!
Nobody put a gun to Beltran’s head to sign with the Mets, why do you say he wasn’t coming here anyhow? Do you have a quote or a link? If he didn’t want to be here why was him and his wife on TV crying after they traded him? Baseball is a business and Alderson traded him, but we shouldn’t pretend to know what players were thinking inside and what their personal thoughts were.
“why do you say he wasn’t coming here anyhow?”
he says it because it’s convenient!
not because there is any evidence or plausability attached to the statement.
Again that has nothing to do with the trade. He was going to be a FA no matter if the traded him or not. Thus you can hold Beltran to the same standard as any FA we didn’t sign. His numbers this year impact that trade zero. Only his numbers for last year after the trade are relative and will have to be compared to what we get from Wheeler his entire time with the Mets.
Point remains, He decided Beltran was not worth having. FA or Trade he could have made an offer in the offseason…did he?
Hi Trs,
Actually it does have everything to do with the trade for most people here claim the deal was a good one specifically because Beltran was going to walk and not re-sign with the team. It was not the risk of losing him, it was the certainty of it.
If that certainty was based on the fact that the front office was not going to re-sign him no matter what Beltran’s feelings were, then that is another story and one I think is correct. But that puts the onus squarely on the shoulders of the team and not the player. Like with Reyes, the Mets wanted to part ways.
Man this place is difficult. Again, the trade was for 2 months of Beltran and at the end of that 2 months they like anyone else would have had the opportunity to bring back Beltran which was most likely not desired by either party but moot to the trade itself.
Which begs the quetion why wasn’t it wanted by OUR party if not Beltran’s?
Why was he not worth having? Why was he not worth making an offer that he could turn down, Sandy would look like he was trying and get some points on the proactive scoresheet and then move on because your so damn sure beltran would have said no?
Is the reason why they never made an offer is because the fear was he might say yes and then you would be stuck with a player you didn’t really want like they did with Reyes?
Which again has nothing to do with the trade which is my point entirely. If you want to discuss why the Mets did not sign Beltran as a FA then fine. However, that has nothing to do with the trade itself.
Your the only one trying to talk about the trade…
WE are talking about the mentality of the Front Office at the time in regards to thier feelings about Beltran.
If they had really wanted him and they had planned (or tried) to go after him in FA then you could say they wanted him back, knew he was an asset worth having and and just couldn’t get it done…Then your Beltran refused angle might be at play.
But it is clear now they decided he was not worth having or even going after which says something about thier ability to judge how valuabe a player like him would be!
They traded him with no intentions of wanting him then or in the future!
And while youi might want to believe Beltran would have turned them down the problem is he couldn’t turn them down because just like Reyes they never made an offer!
“Trades: D – Ramon Ramirez is a bust, Beltran having MVP season Wheeler still in minors.”
If you scroll back up that is what I originally responded to. Thus Beltran’s MVP season this year has nothing to do with the trade last year. NONE, 0…. the only thing that you can compare are Beltran’s numbers last year after the trade to that of Wheeler the entire time he has been and will be here.
Again, if you want to discuss him not being signed as a FA then fine. There are plenty of people I wished we could have signed in the off-season but that’s not what started the discussion that you felt the need to blow up, as usual.
Yep which was said to illustrate the point that what this GM thinks is worth having is not worth having and what he deems is not worth having IS worth having!
If Wheeler’s arm falls off and ends his career or fails miserably in the MLB, Are you still going to say the beltran trade was a good one?
That this FO is a good evaluator of talent and makes smart trades?
Will you say it even if Wheeler is no better than a Pelfrey?
What will it take for you to start to question the front office on ANYTHING?
Well if Wheeler’s arm falls off and we get absolutely no production out of him as a NY Met then the trade will be a failure. If he turns into Pelfrey? For 2 months of Beltran? How would even that be a failure?
Again, it has nothing to do with the trade. They could have re-signed him and did not. So why would I critique the front office on a move that I think was one of the ones that were successful? Two months of Beltran for a top pitching prospect? Sure.
This has nothing to do with Sandy or anti-Sandy, FO vs another FO. It has to do with the fact that Beltran’s current season has nothing to do with last season’s trade of a rental player.
Sorry, I am done with this one. You have plenty to attack Sandy on. This isn’t one of them.
“So why would I critique the front office on a move that I think was one of the ones that were successful?
For beieving Beltran was only worth two months and passing on more!
With an 8th year option for 30 million based on 50 games played in each of the previous 2 years.
Dont know where all the Reyes and Beltran stuff is coming from on this thread, but based on just the players in the farm system, Alderson has benefited greatly, more so than Minaya. Honestly I dont see the need for this post or the need to argue the point. This is common knowledge unless you have an agenda.
In fact, the other day, Mike Francesa asked Sandy Alderson when the Mets were ever going to be “his” team.
Alderson replied, “What do you mean… This is my team.”
The point Francesa was making, much like the last two seasons, sailed completely over Sandy
What he was asking was when is the team of players that are on the field the ones that you want as a core, the Players you choose to move toward with and build around. Minaya was a scout and is a good talent evaluator, but a extremely bad gm and pr person.
Omar wasn’t as bad as we thought when he was fired. But still, we have Sandy for better or worse and he did at least get us Wheeler. I have a feeling this winter is going to see a ton of changes coming to the Mets.
Omar R.A. Dickeya CY Young candidate (he was a minor acqusition small bucks)
Sandy: Wheeler a good prospect but nevertheless a prospect.
Dickey should be a combined accomplishment. Omar found him as a MiL invite (aka scrap-heap) guy, but Sandy recognized the potential and signed him to a multi-year deal.
Im not sure Matt, I would like to see a rebuilt bullpen, a extremely strong rebuilt bullpen. Also add a outfielder, trade route is actually the best route after looking at free agents, coco crisp would be a nice fit in center and lead off, duda unless traded will be in left, and hopefully there is a way to pry upton or preferably in my view a under the rador move in Cory hart in right. Also bourjos in center should be available, Carlos Gomez looks to be coming into his own in center, a catcher would be nice but I am fine with shoppach, molina would be nice as back up, I am done with thole. If duda improves that deepens the line up, if Murphy goes in trade valdespin at second or sign Kelly Johnson or Aaron hill. I’m fine with valdespin at second or murph. Lots of ways this can go. Just young with best years ahead is what I want.
That list you made doesn’t even show Dillon Gee who had a solid rookie year in 2011 and was having a solid season in 2012. Don’t know why you left him off. Also Josh Edgin looks like he’s going to be something special.
that was the list of BA top prospects. Those guys most likely were not on it.
Hi Stick,
The fact that you point out “that was the list of BA top prospects. Those guys most likely were not on it.” does make one wonder why Sandy demanded a top prospect for Hairston when Gee and others have proved there can be diamonds in the rough worth the gamble even though they are not considered top prospects.
That’s where the scouting comes into play with the real astute ones seeing things in a player that others might not.
I don’t really agree with the mix though. Ike, Neise, Tejada and Thole were all either fully ML guys, or primarily ML guys. Basically, they were a part of the ML team Sandy inherited. Not different than the players that Omar inherited (Reyes, Wright at minimum who were in roughly the same position).
Agreed. Big difference in a 21 and 22 year old Wright and Reyes and a Ike Davis and Lucas Duda. Omar inherited young cheap under control all stars. Sandy might not Have.
I think people miss the point on the number of “prospects” playing on the major league team. This is NOT necessarily and indication of a quality farm system. This is directly linked to the inability to spend real money on established pros.
Do you think we would have seen any of these prospects if Sandy had a $180M budget? On the same token, if the Steinbrenners told Cashman to cut his budget in half, I think we would also be saying, “look how many young players the Yankee farm system has produced”.
They did not churn out a bunch of studs, they pencilled in the next-man-standing.
This is not the 1980′s LA Dodgers farm system by any stretch.
‘The point Francesa was making, much like the last two seasons, sailed completely over Sandy Alderson’s head.’
The debate on who ‘inherited’ the better farm system aside…..I laughed right out loud at this parting comment.
The day Francesa bests anyone in a war of words is the day the Cubs win the WS.
You might hate Alderson but using Francesa to illustrate that point shot the whole debate, IMO.
Thanks for the chuckle, Joe.
No, not cause of all the flame wars. But most of it.
By the way, I have appreciated the work of both Omar and Sandy. Now, Let’s have another BINGO from Metsie!!! LOL.l
LOL I’ll give you half a Bingo!
I appreciated Omars work and whenever Sandy gets around to doing some he might get some appreciation from me as well!
I will point out mot of the flame wars are involving those who seem to be more concerned with coverup than the crew who worked for Nixon during Watergate!
When they can admit Sandy has made mistakes and that had a good team to work with despite the bad payroll you can cite, then maybe we wouldn’t have such vitriol as we have!
The only reaso why there is an Omar vs Sandy is because the Sandy side can’t defend Sandy’s actions and move without referencing Omar as WORSE or blaming Sandy’s problems on Omar!
They want to give him credit for what he has done they should.
List the things he should get credit for and cutting Payroll is not something that should be credited because it is not contributing to better baseball!
List the way Sandy has improved the basebal here using some stats and performance not just a business ledger!
The problem is they can’t do that so they resort to blaming Omar for leaving Sandy in a bad state when the truth is Sandy has made that situation worse not better!
Payroll is down but so is Attendance meaning even less money to spend than he started with!
The team has lowered Win Pct each year from what it was in an injury plagued 2009!
If they would pump up Sandy for what he has accomplished as opposed to blaming Omar, Wilpon for what he has failed to do we wouldn’t have these arguments here!
Sandy and Omar have had different objectives. I’ve viewed their performances in light of their unique challenges. If a person denies the importance of sustaining a franchise (financially) and cost isn’t a consideration, then the game of baseball is just a game. But there is much more to it than that. There are numerous challenges of running a franchise at the MLB level, of the need of a GM to placate ownership and fans, of the different views of stocking the minor league system, of the draft system, etc. The ups and downs of the Philadelphia Phillies, a franchise I admire for its evolution and current success, is in many ways an example to follow.
Reading some of the comments here on MMO, I often wonder if the views of many fans begin and end when they enter and leave a ballpark. Baseball is first and foremost a business, not any less of one than that of IBM or a couple of other companies I’ve worked for. Take the business out of baseball and you wind up with the Saturday or Sunday softball game followed by a keg of beer.
Des
everyone always seem to run to the checkbook excuse but tell me this….
If Sandy got a better Farm than Omar had
The only excuse to be made regarding checkbook is the fact Sandy hasn’t been able to make a playoff run via spending!
But it’s no excuse for not making the Farm better!
Omar improved the farm DESPITE spending and losing Draft picks due to that spending!
Sandy hasn’t spent and hasn’t lost draft picks due to that!
But he did waste half a draft all due to his lack of spending!
And no one in thier right mind thinks not spending there was a good idea!
Some have tried but even those that did know that argument is so weak it isn’t worth the beating they will take trying to push it!
We are talking less than .5 to 1.5 Ml of spending on our draft! (And I;m being generous there!)
Thats not smart “NOT SPENDING” thats just dumb!
So while everyone seems to want to say you ant’t spend and build the Minors the truth is Omar did that!
Use spending as an excuse for no quick playoffs no one has a problem with that
But don’t try to tell me spending has anything to do with the farm Sandy was left nor Sandy’s ability to make it better the way Omar did WHILE he spent and gave up 1st rounders!
This is just subterfuge to cloud the story JoeD was trying to tell.
This Myth that Sandy has a worse MiL system than Omar has gone on long enough!
They need to find some other excuse!
How quick we forget that last year in a much much deeper draft that this FO spent the most money in franchise history on the draft. And when I mentioned months ago how the Mets before last year spent the 2nd fewest amount on the draft for nearly 20 years you dismissed it. Now because we only signed half our picks this year, all of a sudden it has become a concern for you. It didn’t bother you that for nearly 2 decades we operated like the smallest of markets being outspent by small market teams but now you whining about one draft after a record amount of spending for this franchise last year. And every cent of that 1.2 million leftover from this years draft gets added to next years budget and is considered a deeper draft than this year. And there is no Myth. Nobody said Sandy took over a worse farm system than Minaya. Again, debate without twisting words and making stuff up and you’d be involved in less flame wars. Unless Joe D is paying you by the comment.
Have proof it was deeper?
Was BA only able to find 50 guys to put on their draft list this year compared to last?
Hence the need to not sign half your picks?
Since BA said there were only half thre players available?
Do you follow the draft? If you do which I highly doubt, you would know that last years draft was considered the deepest draft in over a decade and we spent the most in franchise history on it. I also find it funny how someone who dismisses BA is now running to them for info.
Yeah well we will see how deep it is in 5 years won’t we?
Opinions are a dime a dozen!
You need ALL your draft picks to succeed especially if you refuse to spend to get players in FA!
When we have no kids ready to promote 5 years from now you can Thank Sandy for putting the entire farm one year behind everyone else who DID sign all thier picks!
Why don’t you wait until next years draft plays out and how they handle that before going off on how dumb it was to not sign half their picks this year without having any information as to why they failed to.
Because next year we will be one year behind player development of all the other teams who signed the guys they picked!
Metsie — Omar played his role while he was here to the best of his ability. Jeff Wilpon wound up keeping a tight collar on him. But more to the point, our old friend Tony Bernazard ran the farm clubs, not Omar. If Omar was so good, why did Jeff and Tony undermine his genius?
You ask why an idiot (Jeff) got in Omar’s way?
And Bernazard who challenged players to a fight?
Your using what they thought as proof Omar didn’t know what he was doing and did everything to stop him?
Get back to the point Des….
Did Omar inherit a better farm than Sandy did? Yes or no?
Metsie — Joe D. crafted a well constructed view of one aspect of a GM’s job. But as many posts here attest, the job involve many other aspects of a lead operational manager’s responsibilities. I’m less concerned about just the farm system than the organic changes each guy did for the Mets franchise. Both show themselves to be capable. Because what I’m most interested in are the overall franchise enhancements than just one issue, the answer is each did well in their managerial efforts. But each had hiccups. That’s a tough answer for those who want a cookbook recipe, but the real issues demand it.
Then someone should write an article about those things instead of just trying to take a piece that blows up the Myth that Sandy had a worse Farm than Omar started with!
You want to talk about those other things fine!
Write a piece about it JoeD will pblish it I’m sure he usually does!
This piece was about how crappy the Farm was when Omar took over and how good he made it suring his tenure that Sandy had to work with as HIS starting point.
It devolved to what it did because there are afew around here who wanted to continue pushing this Myth that Omar sucked at everything and he is the reason why Sandy has a lower winning pct each year.
They need people to believe that Omar had a better Farm and ruined it so Sandy has yet another excuse!
And the whole crap about reyes was just rediculous “Lets Change the Subject” so the discussion of what JoeD wrote about gets lost!
Metsie — Your ammo is low and you’ve run out of bullets. Give it up man. You’re repetitious and not interesting when you keep repeating yourself. You don’t seem to appreciate the views of others. Whew!!!
Well I didn’t start the repetition here Des!
I’m no the one who started the Who gets credit for Jose debate now was I?
So I suggest you take your issu about repetitivness to them!
They took this thread off topic not me!
DES, #1 JEFF RESENTED OMAR AS HE WAS TRYING TO GET HIS FATHER TO COMBINE HIS COO POWERS WITH THE GM’s JOB. I BELIEVE JEFF’S PRIMARY MISSION WAS TO UNDERMIND OMAR WHOM HE’D THOUGH HE’D ELIMINATED FROM CONSIDERATION BT ACQUIESCING TO PHILLIPS’ OFFERING HIM UP TO MLB FOR MONTREAL’S REINS. I TGHIS REGARD IT BECAME PRETTY OBVIOUS TO MOST CLUBHOUSE INSIDERS THAT BERNAZARD WAS IN JEFF’S POCKET MOST LIKELY JEFF PROMISED TONY THE GM TITLE MUCH THE SAME “ON-PAPER” CAPACITY GIVEN TO DOUQUETTE.
THE FRANCHISE SPENT TOO MUCH TIME & ENERGY ON THE CIVIL WAR THAT HAD ERIPTED BETWEEN OMAR & JEFF WHICH ULTIMATELY CAUSED EACH TO LOSE A SIGNIFICANT ALLY AS OMAR LOST WILLIE WHILE JEFF LOST PETERSON, HIS PERSONALLY HIRED PERSONAL AIDE/CONSULTANT ON PITCHING ULTIMATELY UPLIFTED TO CZAR STATUS BY JEFF FINALLY ELIMINATED BY OMAR AS FRED “SPLIT THE BABY” BY SACRIFICING OE LIGHTNING ROD FROM EACH SIDE RANDOLPH/PERTERSON. ULTIMATELY OMAR HELD ON TENACOUSLY, IMO, SIMPLY BECAUSE FRED IS NO ABJECT IDIOT AND IS PAINFULLY AWARE OF HIS COO’s ISSUES; BUT WHAT TO DO? IT’S HIS ELDEST SON, THE COMMUNITY COLLEGE GRAD IS OBVIOUSLY OVER HIS HEAD AND HAD SUCCESSFULLY DISCREDITED HIS “BABYSITTER(OMAR) FRED IN DESPERATE NEED OF HELP, TURNED, I BELIEVE TO HIS BUDDY, BUD “THE CHUD” SELIG, FOR A MUCH STRONGER BABYSITTER IN ALDERSON.
AS FAR AS I CAN DISCERN, ALDERSON’S ASSIGNED MISSION IS TWOFOLD GETTING THE INTERNAL OPERATIONS FUNCTIONAL @! A LIVABLE PRICE WHILE MITIGATING ANY POTENTIAL DAMAGE THAT CAN BE WROUGHT BY JEFF & HIS SPY NETWORK. TO THIS EFFORT ALDERSON LEARNED FROM HIS PREDECESSOR’S MISTAKES BY FLANKING HIMSEL;F WITH UNCORRUPTABLE(BY JEFF) ALLIES IN DiPODESTA & RICCHIARDI.
METS62FAN — Thanks for your input. I agree with much of it, especially your critique of Baby Jeff. A minor point of emphasis: Jeff might have only graduated from a community college but I don’t think a strong correlation between a GM’s performance and formal education has been proved. So I wouldn’t hold that against Jeff. Of course he was raised in an affluent neighborhood which had many educational advantages, so it’s probably inevitable that questions arise about his educational choices and achievement.
For a lighter look at what it takes to become a GM, watch:
http://www.ehow.com/video_5362054_become-baseball-general-manager.html
DES, I AGREE THAT A DIRECT CORRELATION BETWEEN FORMAL EDUCATION LEVEL & BASEBALL G.M COMPETANCY IS A DIFFICULT DOT CONNECTION; HOWEVER, EITHER A STRONG BUSIBESS BACKGROUND [GARNERED BY EXPERIENCE OR EDUCATION ] OR A LONG “HANS-ON ” UP THROUGH THE RANKS”, INDUSTRY SPECIFIC RESUME’ TYPICALLY IS FOUNDATION FOR A COMPRETANT GM; HOWEVER JEFF, IS NOT A GM NOR HAS HE EVER BEEN; HE IS THE CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER OF A MULTIMILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS ENTERPRISE A POSITION TYPICALLY ASSOCIATED WITH MORE THAN 2 MEDIOCRE YRS OF HIGHER LEARNING MORE MBA THAN ABA.
AT THE TIME JEFF WAS BROUGHT INTO THE BUSINESS TO LEARN @ STEVE PHILLIPS’ KNEE OMAR WAS AN ASSISTANT GM & IT CERTAINLY WOULD NOT SHOCK ME TO THINK SOME BAD BLOOD OR HURT FEELINGS GOT FRICTUIONALIZED BEWTWEEN THE AROGANT SON OF THE MINORITY OWNER & THE HISPANIC UNDERLING OF THE ASSIGNED MENTOR WERE THROWN TOGETHER DAY IN & OUT. I CERTAINLY HAVE ZERO DIFFICULTY IN PRESUMING STEVE DELEGATED MUCH OF THE CORRECTIONAL INSTRUCTIONS TOWARDS THE “WUNDERKIN” SUCH AS EXPLAINING WHY JUMPING TO THE FRONT OF THE CUSTOMS CONTROL LINE AFTER RETURNING FROM[PUERTO RICO WAS UNCOOL ESPECIALLY WHIKLE THE PLAYERS HAD BEEN IN THE QUE FOR SOME TIME(AS REPORTED BY BIL MADDEN)
MOST OF US HAVE IKELY TOILED ASIDST PETTY OFFICE POLITICS @ ONE TIME OR ANOTHER. IRRATIONAL BIAS FLOURISH LIKE A DAISY IN A GREENHOUSE.
Hi 62,
Somebody recently raised the subject of the lack of creativity with those who rely mostly on analization. That individual was so right – creativity is the important word that so many overlook.. When it comes not just to Sandy Alderson but with statistical analysts in general there is an actual lack of creativity because analyzing is the understanding of patterns and with statistical analysis – as the original author pointed out – one can only react.
True creativity produces something from imaginative skills or in terms of a baseball team what builds a good organization and hopefully a good team based on ideas, a course of action or behavior and not an inflexible set of rules and standards which entraps imagination.
Again, it’s what I call the human factor. It allows for ingenuity, risk and the forsight. That includes allowing a young team to learn how to win even if it will probably fall short. It’s understanding that the emotional experience builds character, toughness and a winning attitude – not that of a quitter or one resigned to losing as we’ve seen the past six or seven weeks . It allows a team to take shape.
That’s the difference between looking at patterns and having a vision.
That’s what I want to see with the Mets – neither the unemotional analytical mind or uncontrolled, unrestrained and foolish spending but something in between that allows for objective thinking and creative thought at the same time. Unfortunately, as long as the Wilpons remain owners with the financial debt they find themselves, that won’t happen for quite a long time and when it does, who knows how long it will take to get the fan base to come back.
JOEY, IT’S BEEN MY EXPERIENCE THAT THE MOST SUCCESSFUL APLICATIONS OF CREATIVITY TO ANY BUSINESS MODEL IS WITHIN A FRAMEWORK OF COMPLETE & TOTAL UNDERSTANDING OF THE ENVIRONEMENT SURROUNDING THE BUSINESS IN QUESTION IF I CAN GET JUST A LITTLE POLITICAL IN MY EXAMPLE U CAN COMPARE THE PROGRAMS CREATED BY BOTH FDR & BARACK OBAMA IN DEALING WITH A CRITICAL ECONOMIC DECLINE AS WHILE BOTH EMPLOYED PROGRAMS CONSISTING VAST GOV’T SPENDING ALLOCATIONS FDR WAS TOTALLY AWARE THAT THE FULL INDUSTRIALIZATION HAD NOT COMPLETELY ENGULFED THE AGRICULTURAL FOUNDATIONS SPREAD FAR & WIDE THROUGHOUT THE VAST RURAL ACREAGE THAT COMPRISED MOST OF THE POPULATED US LEAVING MANY OF THE UNEMPLOYED & UNDEREMPLOYED KNOWLEDGEDIN TURNING SHOVELS FOR THE TVA & OTHER SIMILAR REBUILDING/FIRST CONSDTRUCTING OF A MORE MODERN AMERICA AS FDR WAS MUCH MORE VERSED IN THE MAKEUP OF WHAT WAS DEMANDED & REQUIRED HIS CREATIVITY COULD INCLUDE MANY MORE UN OR UNDER-EM[PLOYED WHILE OBAMA FAILED TO RECOGNIZE SHOVEL READY WAS NONCOMPLIANT WITH THE SERVICE LEANING CLEAN NAILED WORFORCE LEFT IDLED BY THE “GREAT RECESSION”
THUS FIRST & FOREMOST TO SUCCESSFUL USE OF CREATIVITY IS COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING OF THE INDUSTRIAL ENVIRONEMENT U ARE ENDEAVORING.
BACK TO THE METS, I FEAR THAT DEPTH OF FULL WORKING GRASSROOTS INFORMATION IS LACKING AMONG THE 3 PROFESSIONALS (ALDERSON,DiPODESTA RICCIARDI) TASKED WITH RIGHTING THE LISTING SHIP ANCHORED IN FLUSHING BAY THERE IS A DEFINITE REQUIREMENT FOR ACTIVISTS CONJUNCTING WITH THE THEORISTS PRESENTLY HOLDING THE STRINGS & PUSHING THE BUTTONS.
MUCH LIKE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MEL STOTTLEMYER & A RICK PETERSON AS A PURE BASEBALL EXAMPLE.
SPEAKINGOF THE HEADMIESTER OF PITCHING, I’VE LONG SUSPECTED HE SCREWED WITH THE SELF-CONFIDENCE OF MAINE,PELFREY, PARNELL AS THEY’VE ALL FALLEN VICTIM TO THE BEWILDERMENT THAT PETERSON IS KNOWN TO DAZZLE WITH. THEY ALL APEAR CONFUSED BY WHAT HAD TRANSPIRED WITH THEM ON THE BUMP
AS TO WHAT’S CURRENTLY NEEDED, I TRULY BELIEVE THE TEAM WOULD BE BEST SERVED BY UTILIZING THEIR STRENGTH IN YOUNG PITCHING TO BACKFILL THEIR OWN ’13 NEEDS OF 2 ROTATIONALS(PELFREY,YOUNG SLOTS) & 3,4 BULLPEN SPOTS PRESENTLY HELD BY ACOSTA,RAUCH,RAMIREZ(PERHAPS PARNELL) WHILE DEALING OFF FROM SURPLUS(POSSIBLY INCL PARNELL) TO ACQUIRE A PRTICULAR RFer FROM AZ
FORTUNATELY, SOME OF OUR LESSER PITCHING OPTIONS SUCH AS McHUGH,HEFNER HAVE RECENTLY SHOWN PROMISE TO A DEGREE THAT COULD ALLOW ALDERSON TO STUFF HIS POCKETS WITH YOUNG PITCHERS NOT NAMED HARVEY,WHEELER ALONG WITH EXPENDABLE POSITIONERS LIKE TORRES,MURPHY,VALDESPIN TO APPROACH AZ WITH A VIABLE PKG OF PROMISES.
AS UPTON EARNS 9.75M IN ’13 ENOUGH SAVINGS IN REPLACING PITCHING VETS WITH UPSTARTS CAN EASLY ACOMODATE A NEAR FLATLINED SALARY PROJECTION.
Hi 62,
“BACK TO THE METS, I FEAR THAT DEPTH OF FULL WORKING GRASSROOTS INFORMATION IS LACKING AMONG THE 3 PROFESSIONALS (ALDERSON,DiPODESTA RICCIARDI) TASKED WITH RIGHTING THE LISTING SHIP ANCHORED IN FLUSHING BAY THERE IS A DEFINITE REQUIREMENT FOR ACTIVISTS CONJUNCTING WITH THE THEORISTS PRESENTLY HOLDING THE STRINGS & PUSHING THE BUTTONS.”
I love the way you hit the hammer on the nail.
Lets just put it this way….
If Jeff was truly qualified to do anything on his own he would have gotten a job outside the family business to make his own name for himself! Maybe even started somwhere in the family CORE business (Real Estate) since that is where the majority of the family money comes from and is maintained!
He didn’t even get close to that!
He doesn’t have the personality of an executive, sure doesn’t have the confidence needed to succeed as one.
The look on his face during the Minaya firing press conference was one of a kid getting punished by his father in front of his friends it was that excruciating of a look.
Fred (and his buddy Saul) is the business brains and Jeff is nothing more than the best place to put a son who can’t be trusted with the real money making enterprises of the Family!
He makes no decisions (but he sure tries by refusing to bring things to Daddy for decisions) as Fred and Saul make the final say!
I can’t really blame Jeff for what he is…He has to do something to make a living and being the Camera for Fred and Saul is about all he is good for!
Hi Metsie,
I remember before Citi Field opened how Jeff was the one promoting the new park, hyping the “excitemen” the new field dimensions, angles and walls would create, the ammenties, etc.
Do you think he was the one responsible for insisting on those monstrosities?
I also know that MLB has a set of rules for the construction of new parks to conform to. Think he got permission to waive some sort of line of sight rule for those of us in the upper prominade along the left field side so to design a better restaurant underneath? It sounds like a Jeff Wilpon moment but I can’t imagine Fred and Saul allowing him to have such authority on such a project. Certainly, MLB should be held accountable for approving such a major blight on the paying customer.
“Do you think he was the one responsible for insisting on those monstrosities?”
Nope I don’t think Jeffy makes any decisions other than which side of his teeth he brushes first in the morning….
He is the front man on those things only to build up the facade that he is running the team so if and when the Wilpons do ever have to sell the team (Probably never) he can put it on his Resume and say I did this!
They put him in a position where he doesn’t have to make decisions just be a sort of telephone between the GM and fred (and maybe he’s not even doing THAT anymore) and given a salary to live on where if he had to go out into the real world to earn a living he wouldn’t be able to….
Jeff is just a silver spoon put into the family business in a position he can do the least amount of damage!
Geez everyone, relax. I didn’t say Minaya signed Reyes, I simply said he had a hand in it and he obviously did. Is this all about not giving him even 1% of credit? The things I write that get cherry-picked and emphasized more that the thrust of an overall opinion is simply remarkable sometimes.
A simple query brang up a couple of simple articles on the matter:
ESPN Magazine – Seven years ago, it was the smile that earned Reyes a job. Eddy Toledo, a Mets scout at the time, first saw him in August 1999 at a tryout camp in Santiago, the second-largest city in the Dominican Republic. The boy was just 16 years old, but scouts from four other major league clubs had already checked him out, and all four had passed. He was nothing special across the board, they thought: a below-average hitter and fielder with below-average speed and a below-average arm. But Toledo was taken in by the grin. “There was something special in his face and eyes,” he says. “He was so exciting to me.” Toledo looked a little harder at the body the other scouts had dismissed as weak. Yes, it was devoid of bulk, but it was springy and elastic and loaded with potential. Toledo’s boss back then, assistant GM Omar Minaya, valued raw athleticism. The Mets weren’t hurting for cash, and Minaya, inherently aggressive, rarely shied away from risk. So when Toledo called and told him of the unremarkable skill set of the kid he thought could maybe, one day, be remarkable, Minaya gave him the green light.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3647259
USA Today – Montreal Expos general manager Omar Minaya was in charge of the Mets’ international operations in 1999 when scout Eddy Toledo urged him to sign Reyes. The Mets did not like spending $15,000 for a scrawny teen. But after the Chicago Cubs showed interest, Toledo and Minaya won out.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/minors/2002-09-18-reyes-minor-leaguer_x.htm
Just an FYI, there seems to be some confusion on this matter so let me explain things as they were once explained to me by Jody McDonald (son of Mets former Mets President and GM Joe McDonald) during a fund raising dinner we both met at once I believe in 1993.
No scout employed by the Mets has any authority to sign anyone. All they can do is scout, assess, and make recommendations.
They have no budget of their own to spend aside from a per-diem for food and lodging, and reimbursement for travel expenses which they must report weekly.
They have no authority to sign checks or agree to contracts with players, only to pass the information and any recommendations to their boss – in this case Minaya. Other MLB teams with smaller staffs and front offices may do it differently, but this is how the Mets have always done it.
I grabbed my MLB Media directory and just reached out to Eddy who is with the Rays unless that’s changed since this April 1st update, maybe he can answer a few questions for me I hope.
But what concerns me more is why does this even matter? Why is it so important to some of you, even now 14 years later? Someone please shed some light on that for me.
I’m about to delete some of the comments here that I feel are inappropriate, and apologize to those who have been offended by any of them.
Damn, almost a half hour of my Sunday sifting through 130 comments mostly about arguing semantics or refusing to give one person credit while taking it away from another.
Mr. North Jersey, USMF, Vinny B. – Thank you for debating with class and not going into the gutter ever. Thank for also agreeing to disagree and ending your disagreement on positive notes.
Maniac – You have your email now.
Metsie, Jessep, Fonzie – Follow Vinny, MNJ and USMF’s examples.
Everyone else, my apologies.
What do you mean Joe? There were no insulting comments at all from me or Jessep.
Hi Fonzie,
That is indeed the shame of it all – you don’t even see it in yourself.
If you were above what Joe was getting at he obviously would not have included you when raising the issue about the manner in which people are conducting themselves on his website.
Let me ask you Joey. What is the point in you bringing up the same thing that has no rellevance to the Mets every single day? Why would anybody in their right mind feel the need to bring up the 80′s A’s on a Mets fan site not just once or twice but just about every day for the past 6 months? Only someone looking to stir up a flame war would do such things.
What point? Really? Complaining about an off topic post?
Who was it that turned a thread about who started with the better Farm system turned this into a credit syste and dissertaion about who gets credit and Jose Reyes?
Amazin, Alex and Bayonne? Nope they are all gone!
Me? Nope!
JoeyD? Nope!
It was the Who Me twins who claim to never start the fights and insults who took us where we are today and when they got called on it started with the insults that led me and others to give it right back at ya!
So you made this thread a mess as you guys do to MOST threads that start off with a peice or premise that Sandy doesn’t have X as an excuse!
And it is your constant Teflon cleanup that always takes it way off course, off topic and off manners to create yet another 100+ comment thread that posts need to be deleted in!
SO you want to see who took us off target and off mission….
Get a Mirror and a Pitcure of Jessup and stare the culprits down!
Who’s the one that’s always involved in 100 plus comment blowouts with different people every day? Metsie. You dominate every thread. It doesn’t matter who it is you’re debating with it always ends up in blowing up a thread. You even jump in between 2 other people when it has nothing to do with you like you are now. You do this with everybody that doesn’t agree with you and then you blame the other person. If you debated honestly without twisting peoples words and making things up to prove a point these flame wars you get into would never happen. Take responsibility for your own actions and at the same time Ignore me and I’ll ignore you.
Well to be honest YOU!
You were involved in them with Alex, Bayonne, JoeyD …not me!
Never once got into a flame war with Alex. Not once. And the ones with bayonne were never a third as many comments as you have with dozens of people.. I have only had long debates with you and Joey about the same subject all because you both told fabricated stories about the Aldersons role with the A’s. If you told the truth I wouldn’t even bother. You for some reason have to make things up to feed your agenda as does Joey.
Well, Fonzie,
a lot of people disagree with me but you are the only one accusing me of making up things up and claiming to have sent links that are non-existent. Nor was I the one who had the distinction of being told by the website to take a cue from others by “debating with class and not going into the gutter”.
Joe D. felt a need to say what he did for otherwise he would have had no reason to make such statement.
You’ve made quite a few things up I might add. The first one being about Bill Rigney being the architect of the A’s which was false. You gave a link aabout the grading system for scouts whch had nothing to do with the entire topic because nobody ever said he was a scout. That was your so called proof. Other things made up is you saying things that I said that I didn’t. Like Sandy drafting Canseco, something I never said. You saying I said something that Jesspe or somebody else said. Bottom line is if you didn’t repeat the same topic everyday then you wouldn’t stir up any angst towards you. To me that’s instigation only you say Hi before you do it.
Bottomline is if you didn’t repeat the same thing over and over again (i.e. Your a LIAR) maybe Joe wouldn’t have had to mention you as part of the problem?
You just do’t know when to give up do you?
Still adding posts that have nothing to do with who had the better farm!
But WE are all to blame right?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I can’t wait till the Day Joe decides to give you a ban to see how little mr innocent flips out!
You keep that dream alive about my ban cause it’s not happening as long as a troublemaker like you is allowed to flame out every thread. I guess you’ll forever hold a grudge for exposing you as a BS artist on so many occasions. Even using some of your old comments to show just how you speak from 10 different sides of your mouth. If not with me you’ll flame out a thread with someone else. It should be getting underway shortly.
And you keep that dream alive about you being untouchable and unbannable!
It will make that moment even sweeter for the rest of us!
So Joe D was only targetting me for abbreviating the F-Bomb? Looks like you were another one he was talking to as well.
Metsie, Jessep, Fonzie – Follow Vinny, MNJ and USMF’s examples.
Everyone else, my apologies.
Funny how you were the first name he mentioned. Enjoy your dream.
Oh Little Angel!
Take tyour medicine and your warning and stop whining with the Who Me Little Angel act!
Well Joe I respectively disagree.
It’s easy to look at Omars prospects now and go “man those guys never became anything”. But at the time some of them had major value. Milledge at a point was a top 20 prospect in baseball. Humber and Gomez were regarded highly enough that the Twins traded Johan for them. And I believe Gaby was used in the Delgado trade.
I’m also willing to bet that if you look at the 2011 list in 5 years we will all realize (I already have) what a disgrace that top 10 list is. Josh Thole and Rueban Tejada are not everyday players. They only play everyday because the organization is so talent deprived. But make no mistake these are utility players. Neise, Davis, Harvey. That’s what Sandy got. He also got orders to cut payroll and not make it look like a rebuilding job. Omar got Wright, Reyes, Floyd, and a blank check.
And lets not forget the reason Omar was fired, he signed some awful contracts, and failed to shake up the roster when it was clearly needed after the 2008 collapse. Omar signed Castillo, Perez, KRod, Bay…….woof!!!!
Honestly it’s really not fair to call Sandy a GM. He’s more of a business consultant, showing the Wilpons where and how they can cut costs. The fish rots from the head. The Mets are in the mess they are in not because of Alderson but because Bud Selig likes Fred Wilpon. If he didn’t, we might have a lineup of Wright, Reyes, AGon, Victorino, Hanley, and Crawford.
Hi Joe D.,
No need to apologize for the acts of others regarding personal attacks and abusive language. And I’m so glad you included Fonzie in those you called out for if what he just said to me wasn’t what you were trying to point out, I don’t know what is.
“’ll say it for the 400th time just in case the other 399 times didn’t get through to your thick headed skull which obviously it didn’t.”
And I’ll say this for him, that was one his low-key ones and actually quite polite compared to others!
Joey
Thanks again.
Low Key compared to others. Yes I committed a felony when I said you don’t back up your claims with facts or when I said you were stubborn and when I said yourepeat the same 2 topics every single day. I’m going to turn myself into the authorities. Maybe if you would stop bringing up the same thing every day, a topic that happened 30 years ago no less, none of those felonies I have committed would ever occur. You also claimes Mr North Jersey personally attacked you as well as Des and that never occured. I think you keep repeating the same thing to cause a stir an instigate a flame war. You are no better than anyone else. Just because you say Hi to everybody before you address them doesn’t make you any better when you are looking to stir up a war of words. Why else would you say the same thing every day. It’s pretty sad actually.
Yeah you seem to have two rules depending….
Two rules for who gets credit for kids that get signed depending on if Sandy was in charge or Omar
And two rules over what constitutes an Insult….
Anyone says anything you don’t like they are insulting you and deserve to be banned.
But yanything goes and is perfectly fine as long as you name is attached to who said it!
Will you for once stop making things up. There are no 2 rules for Omar and Sandy. Omar gets all the credit for what happened while he was the GM. Nobody is taking away any credit for Niese, Ike, Harvey, etc… It has nothing to do with Omar the GM. He gets credit for his players so stop. He wasn’t the GM in 99. Phillips was. And nobody insulted you so again stop. You are always the first to insult. Insult me and I’ll insult you. I don’t insult people that don’t insult me. If you lie or make something up and call you a liar that’s not an insult. But if you call someone a dumbass for not agreeing with you which is what you did the first time I debated with you well that’s an insult.
Sure there are two rules…
You don’t give Omar credit for Reyes because he wasn’t the scout and didn’t hire the scout then change it so you can give McDonald PoDesta and all the other Sandy folks credit for draft picks found by scouts Omar hired!
Since Omars scouts found all the players we drafted in 2011 (and feel free to name the ones the two scouts Sandy hired found that don’t apply) Then MacDonald gets no credit for any of them and neither does anyone else since it’s only the SCOUT and who hired them theat gets credit!
Jessup by the way doesn’t agree that the GM gets all credit regardless he thinks the guy who runs the draft in any year acts on his own without supervision….
Yet you are here saying that even an AGM in ncharge of scouting IFA and signing them has to get permission before he acts..
You guys need to get your story straight, I know it’s hard because you have gone to such great lengths to get Reyes off Omar’s record that you didn’t realize how that would affect the crediting system on Sandy’s tenue!
You two basically box4ed yourtself into a corner where NO ONE gets credit for anything!
OK lets say TIE?
Back to the topic at hand?
Omar had a worse Farm system when he got here than Sandy did!
Got a reply to that that doesn’t involve mentioning Jose reyes, Spending, and Scouts none of which having anything to do with the kids they inherited?
Actually Metsie if you were paying attention to one of the nearly 200 comments made, one comment in particular shows myself saying Sandy has a better farm to work with than Omar had. scroll up and see. Must’ve flew right over your head. And if you think it was Omar who hired all the scouts reponsible for 2011 draft then think again. A lot of them were already here before Omar was the GM and still remain as we speak today. Sandy added to the scouting staff he didn’t replace the entire staff. Scout Marlin Mcphail was hired by Steve Phillips, his ex teammate in the Mets system back in the early 80′s who caught Doc Gooden in the minor. He’s responsible for Ty Wigginton, Reese Havens, Ike Davis, Matt Harvey,Josh Edgin, Bobby Parnell, Cory Mazzoni to name a few. Players that stretch across 3 different GM’s I know which scouts were here and which ones just got here. Do you? Doubt it.
Hi Fonzie,
Please take up your argument up with Joe instead of me for Joe had his reasons independent of whatever I had felt.
Okay Joey. I look forward to the next thread that you mention Bill Rigney’s amazing accomplishments in. Should be in a few hours. Or is it the Beltran trade you’ll mention again. Suspensefull indeed.
Hi Fonzie,
Am sure you won’t have to wait long – but while you do, please note the few others who also bring up the same subject for as you know, the last few times I spoke about this was in response to one or two others who also were questioning the merits of the move.
So I am not alone – and neither is Metsie.
Keep hanging in there.
Hey Guys,
The sparks flying over who was responsible for the Mets signing Jose Reyes is almost as exciting as the sparks that were flown over who was responsible for the Mets not re-sigining Jose Reyes!
Hey Fonzie,
I note two people along with Metsie are currently having a discussion regarding 2011 and the Beltran trade.
Last week you joked how I would bring the subject up and within minutes after that you were laughing out loud (and I was sharing it with you!) that I went ahead and did just that. What you didn’t mention – and didn’t follow up on after I brought this out – was that I was responding to somebody’s original statement posted about 45 minutes before that.
I thought it was only Metsie and I who still talk about the issue and nobody else.
LOL. You guys crack me up.
“LOL. You guys crack me up.”
Hi Trs,
We just love to keep our audiences riveting!
JOEY, AS I COULDN’T GET THE REPLY BUTTON TO WORK ON YOUR COMMENT FOLLOWING I’VE CHOSEN TO COPY YOUOR NOTE HERE THEN RESPOND TO KEEP THE THREAD TIGHT.
YOUR NOTE:
Joey D. August 28, 2012 at 10:36 am .
Hi Metsie,
I remember before Citi Field opened how Jeff was the one promoting the new park, hyping the “excitemen” the new field dimensions, angles and walls would create, the ammenties, etc.
Do you think he was the one responsible for insisting on those monstrosities?
I also know that MLB has a set of rules for the construction of new parks to conform to. Think he got permission to waive some sort of line of sight rule for those of us in the upper prominade along the left field side so to design a better restaurant underneath? It sounds like a Jeff Wilpon moment but I can’t imagine Fred and Saul allowing him to have such authority on such a project. Certainly, MLB should be held accountable for approving such a major blight on the paying customer.
___________________________________________________________________________MY RESPONSE…
FRED CLEARLY EXPLAINED THAT JEFF KNEW WHAT HE(FRED) WANTED AND HE W(JEFF) WAS FGIVEN THE PROJECT(CITIFIELD) TO BRING IN.
CLEWARLY JEFF HAD OWNERSHIP OF THE DESIGN & FRED CLEARLY STATED HE’S HAD THE CONSRUCTION BLUEPRINTS FROM THE ORIG CONSTRUCTION OF EBBETS FILED & INTENDED TO USE THEM ENTIRELY TO BUILD A REPLICATION INSTEAD JEFF, CHOSE TO TAKE 5 YRS TO STUDY EVERY NEWLY OPENED & EXISTING LANDMARKED STADIUM IN MLB PRIOR TO FINALIZING “HIS” DESIGN
HOWEVER, IMO, ONLY JEFF COULD TAKE 5 YRS OF STUDY TO CREATE SOMETHING REQUIRING CHANGES EVERY YR SINCE GRAND OPENING IN 2009
2010: METIFICATION, HALL OF FMAE ADDED
2011: DIMENSIONAL ALTERATIONS.
PERHAPS THE OLD MAN SHOULD’VE DONE IT HIS WAY WITH THE OLD DRAWINGS(SPECS) CREATING A BRAND NEW OBSOLETE BALLPARK LIKE FORD REINTRODUCING THE EDSEL.
Just to point out, We can blame Jeff for overseeing what the Architect did but the problems with the design are really issues of the Architect not really a problem with Jeff Micromanaging the design.
I am betting that this architect didn’t do what needs to be done in any event and stadium design.
These days they build 3D models in a computer and use a seating camera in that model to determine the sightlines of every section of seats.
I don’t think that happened at all and once they realized the problem it was way to late to fix.
yes Jeff gets some blame for not being smart enough to insist on seeing that rendering but the Architect failed to even let jeff know such a thing was possible and should be used to approve the final design!
Hi Metsie and 62,
My own feeling is that MLB went ahead and approved the design with the knowledge of the line of sight problem and that in order to accomodate the way the restaurant was to be angled inward the architect had no other choice. Populous is not a fly by night organization as one could see by the portfolio below:
Populous, formerly known as HOK Sport, is an architectural firm specializing in the design of sports facilities and convention centers, as well as planning of major special events.
The firm enjoys a dominant role in the design of sporting stadiums and arenas, including such globally prominent facilities as the new Yankee Stadium in New York, Wembley Stadium in London, Stadium Australia in Sydney, Wimbledon Centre Court, Minneapolis’ Target Field, San Francisco’s AT&T Park, Chicago’s United Center arena, Great American Ball Park in Cincinnati, Pittsburgh’s Heinz Field, Houston’s Reliant Stadium, Arsenal’s Emirates Stadium, the renovation of Chicago’s Wrigley Field, University of Phoenix Stadium, the renovation of Soccer City Stadium in Johannesburg for the 2010 World Cup, London’s 2012 Olympic Stadium, Miami’s Sun Life Stadium, Ascot Racecourse, New York’s Citi Field, Benfica’s Estádio da Luz in Lisbon, the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff and the O2 Arenas in London, Berlin, and Dublin.
I can’t believe a group such as this, which designed the new Yankee Stadium plus the new parks in Cincinnati, Houston, Pittsburgh and San Francisco, which people will notice the difference in the way the facade of the upper decks do not suddenly angle more toward the infield along the foul lines. Nope, this was an instance upon the Mets to accommodate the dynamics of the restaurant they wanted below those seats.
Well Joey as an engineer I can say that the Architect ALWAYS has a choice!
He just didn’t look or care to look down to that level!
MY guess is they used some guy who is old school and does it with paper and models!
And if he did it all in CAD then they didn’t take the step to render and see what the sightlines for the seats were and just did the restaurants.
In any case I certainly can’t blame Jeff for the design I blame the architect for not knowing how to properly design a public event stadium!
Carnegie Hall was built in the age before computer assits was possible yet the acoustics are perfect there because the Architect knew what was most important in the design phase and met those goals.
This architect focused on the asthetics more than the function from the best I can tell!
Hi Metsie,
A colleague of mine who is a licensed architect and AIA member attended a conference held at Citi Field in April of 2009. I asked him what he thought of it and his reply was “it is a great convention center”.
Hypothetical question but what can an architect do when an owner insists on a certain design that is architectually sound but, of course, goes against the functionality, in this case, the sight lines? Seeing that the park is representative of a class system (with so many restricted entrances and only certain escalators going to the very top level) it would not surprise me that the restaurant having a better view of the field took preference. And again, I was advised by someone with the Empire State Development Corporation, an agency which helped fund the construction of the park, that MLB must approve the final design of all new stadiums. That is why I can’t conceive of this being something that was just overlooked.
Dave Howard even went on FAN as fans began complaining about this and said we were just not used to sitting in outfield seats (like the dirt behind third base wasn’t the outfield at Shea?) and that the problem is similar in many of the new parks (which we know is BS).
Well what makes you think the owners insisted on bad sight lines?
Thats the job of the architect to point out and design out those issues.
Imean if you needed heart surgery should the surgeon do what you insist when he is the expert in what needs to be done?
They picked the wrong guy obviously and just were not smart enough to know he might not have the skills to design a proper stadium. The model looked good and the drawings looked like good drawings but unless you actually went that extra mile to focus on what was most important you simply trust the expert knows what he is doing and go with it!
Thats all that happened Joey.
Yes they had some things they wanted to see. Had some things they insisted on having but none of those were must have bad sightlines or screw the fans up the storefronts….
It all comes down to this…
The only negligence on the part of the Wilpons is who they picked to design the stadium.
All they were concerned with is that it harkened back to Ebbets and looked good inside and outside, something that was a major knock on Shea!
And they saw the drawings, saw the model said it looks good and when it was finally built and they could see the perspective from the actual seats it was way too late to fix it!
Hi Metsie,
Another friend of mine here in the office who is our facilities manager raised a point which I think might be the answer. I explained the dynamics of the line of site issue with him, including my thoughts about the restaurant and asked where he thought the area of responsibility for allowing this to happen fell to – the owner or the architect, His immediate response it probably wasn’t a major concern to either party. Meaning, they knew it and didn’t think of it as such a big deal.
For all we know, the Wilpons could have even anticipated how angry it would make some fans but assumed in time the flap would settle down since it’s a matter of either sitting there (if no other seats are available) or staying at home.
Does make sense more than it just being an oversight. Also, it does seem part of the Wilpon mentality thinking they could get away with anything as far as the fans were concerned.
What do ya think?
I’m sure it wasn’t a concern to both since there are bad sightlines…
But it’s still the Architect’s job to point out those issues to his client!
Even if an owner said put a giant refrigerator in front of this section of seast the architect is supposed to tell him well that would block the view and show him a better place for it!
Just you might tell your plumber where you want your sink but if he says to do that I have to run pipes accross your floor it’s his responsibility to tell the client the downside of his request!
I get the same thing from producers all the time…I want a camera here or a monitor there.
And I have to say I put it there it screws up your shot, and only if he says I don’t care just do it will it happen.
I don’t think it was ever brought up by the Architect!
They were too concerned with looks not functionality!
Hi Metsie,
In this case, we don’t know what really happened. For all we know the Wilpons wanted the restaurant even further in and then compromised to the plea of the architect.
In this case, my good friend, we really can’t say for sure, though I think I can say with good confidence that consideration to the fans sitting in the inexpensive seats was certainly of little concern to the owners.
But what I would like to know is why the escalator in left stops at the lower promenade. What space limitations could have caused such a problem which could not have been resolved? There was no excuse for that and that is what makes me suspect the architect might have been speaking to a brick wall – only because it seems so unprofessional. As you said, you know for sure something might screw up a shot but what can you do if the producer says he or she doesn’t care?
Just don’t know but considering who wanted the stupid gimmicks put into place to create (as Jeff put it) “excitement” that made a mockery of the game, I wouldn’t put being stubbornly unreasonable past them.
All I know is, they were the bosses and if one architectural firm wouldn’t go along with their demands, they could have found another one that could. Just like that plumber who would eventually have to install that sink in an area against his better judgement.
Joey all those things you mention are all issues modern arctitect and modeling software would have found and identified as problems.
There is even software available that will help you determine issues with crowd flow and egress in your design these days! You would be surprised what they can do with a 3D Architectural drawing these days. The problem is many of them have no clue how to use them and still work on a drafting table, ruler and protractor! And you won’t get a good handle on sightlines if thats how you design it.
There is the issue of Budget and trying to squeeze the entire complex into the parking lot of a stadium that is being used to play baseball!
There are a 100 reasons for everything you point to being the way they are and only one of them was Jeff possibly saying SCREW THEM I want a Golf game!
Hi Metsie,
Though I spent most of my years managing the office for the Vice President for Administration along with being the coordinator of capital projects at the University I work for, the past few years, due to internal re-organization, I have been with our Engineering Department, continuing and expanding my responsibilities in the capital area. But being in that department I’ve been able to get a little bit of insight into the points you made about architecture, design and construction. See that software being used all the time and how they are so able to project what our new structures indeed actually looked like inside.
In fact, it was always my contention that perhaps the biggest problem facing Citi Field was the limited square footage the Mets had to build it in. At the same time, with less space devoted to the stores and restaurants (which is the only reason why it was built to begin with) there would have been more space for additional elevator banks, not just having all current ones go all the way to the top, accessibility, egress and an upper deck corridor that would not give one claustrophobia.
And even within those confines, I’m sure there would have been a way to have designed a structure more fan friendly for those who can only swing tickets in the cheap (?) seats.
Well I was at the very first press conference covering the Wilpon plan for a new stadium.
THE first, the one that had different fields that would slide and move into the parking lot so they could transition from baseball park, Football field, concert site etc…etc…
The scope of what they wanted to do and even the model that was there itself was so comprehensive and intricate you could tell it took years on the drawing board.
This was back when the yankees were going to move to Manhattan and Wilpon and Steinbrenner were trying to get the City to pay a lot of money to rebuild thier venues.
Big Dreams, Big Ideas, Enthusiastic (maybe over enthused) designs.
I bet those designs had taken everything right down the the millimeter length of sightlines.
But it would have cost a gazillion dollars and the city said NO Think Smaller!
The Yankees and Mets got some money to rebuild but they had to design something that would fit into the spaces that were available where they were. Which consisted of a park and a parking lot!
The Space and the money involved required both teams to pretty much go with a plan B design. A design that had to be done as quick as possible without all the research and design touches that you might normally do merely because you had to get it done before the City changed it’s mind and decided they didn’t even want to spend what they said they would!
So yes they probably compromised, Both on what the best design was, What space they had and how to use it and even on the time available to get a final plan done!
So they missed some details….
As I said to you before Shea was no great sea of Vision either!
Anyone 10 rows back in a covered section had no idea where a fly ball was going.
So really this is nothing all that new to Met fans!
They just liked Shea and don’t like new in many cases.
Could they have done a better job?
Sure! You can ALWAYS do a better job!
Just 9 times out of 10 no one bothers to or doesn’t have the money or resources they need to do something properly!
JOEY, I’VE NO ISSUES WITH DESIGN; BUT WITH DECOR. TAKING 5 FLIPPIN YEARS TO SYUDY THE FULL GLOAT OF SPORTSCOMPLEXES, TO ME THERE SHOULD BE EXPECTED A SMALL WINDOW OF ACCEPTABILITY TO BE REACHED WITH THE INNAUGRAL ATTEMPT WITHOUT NEED TO BRING AN ERASER INTO PLAY AFTER THE CONCRETE HAS SET & PAINT DRIED
TO ME IT’S MOST FRIGHTENING TO CONSIDER THAT THE PRINCIPLE OWNER, A SUPPOSEDLY RESPECTED EXECUTIVE IN THE NY REALTY SCENE ADMITTED HIS INITIAL PLAN WAS TO RECOSTRUCT A 100 YR OLD DESIGN AS THE INITIAL PLANS FOR EBBETS HAD TO BE BY 2008′S GROUNDBREAING. COMBINING THAT “LOST TOUCH WITH REALTY REALITY” WITH THE INCOMPETANCE OF ENTRUSTING THE DIRECTION OF A MULTMILLION DOLLAR ENTERPRISE TO “THE PRIDE OF PALM BEACH COMMUNITY COLLEGE” WITH THE ATTENTION SPAN OF A FLEA PERHAPS IT’S HERE WHERE WE’LL DISCOVER WHY SUCCESS & CONTINUITY HAVE BEEN SO DAMNED ELUSIVE
Hi 62,
I gather by the “Pride Of Palm Beach Community College” you are referring to the junior Wilpon who thus went to a junior college? That confused me because under his executive proile in Bloomberg Business Week it reads:
“There is no Education data available.”
I kid you not.
http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/person.asp?personId=111710792&privcapId=12486682&previousCapId=111854334&previousTitle=Brooklyn%20Cyclones
As far as the design, my first reaction was – after allowing myself to take a brief rest after having to walk a flight of stairs to get to the leftfield promenade and hen havng to further take a long walk down a corridor to reach our section – that I actually liked the old time look and atmosphere it created. I was quite impressed despite being upset about the added leg work required to get to our seats.
Then I saw what I thought was the foul line and felt that those complainining about left field being cut off must have been way over-exaggerating. That was, until I discovered what I thought I was seeing – the foul line – was actually the suspension line to hold up the netting behind home plate. I then saw where the view of the foul line became lost and was aghast that I was missing everything from the the left of the “shea” ball on the left field fence that would be parallel with the average depth played by the left-fielder.
There was no excuse for that.other than incosideration or indifference. Not having the facade of the upper deck stands begin to angle in at the point it does wold have only eliminated a few rows of seats in the back but would have caused those in the dining room to stretch their necks a bit more to see the game.
JOEY, LONG AGO I FOUND THE WILPON FAMILY SITE WHICH I BELIEVE MAY BE WHERE I FOUND HIS ACADEMIC CREDENTIALS; HOWEVER, THE “NO INFO AVAILABLE” IS NOT SURPRISING SINCE I BELIEVE DADDY WAS NONE TOO PLEASED WITH JEFF’S EDUCATIONAL DECISIONS, KNOWING AS I DO HOW MUCH WEIGHT TRADIRTIONAL JEWISH FAMILIES PLACE UPON EDUCATION ESPECIALLY FOR FIRST BORN SONS & SINCE FRED’S SISTER’S KIDS(THE KAPLANS) ALL COMPLETED FULLY ACCREDITED BACHELORS & MASTERS LEVELSALL OF WHICH TECHNICALLY “REPORT” TO JEFF Re. NY METS’ BOARD POSITIONS DESPITE BEING PEERS WITHIN THE CORP. STERLING CONFINES HOW THAT ALL WORKS, IS BEWILDERING TO UTSIDERS AS I’M CERTAIN WAS THE OVERALL INTENTION
JEFF’S CREDENTIALS ARE FURTHER OBFISCATED BY HIS SUPPOSED PAST MiLB CAREER WITHIN THE EXPOS ORGANIZATION WHERE NOT SO SUPRISINGLY HIS LAST FIELD MNGR, A FORMER WOLVERINE TEAMMATE & CLASSMATE OF FRED’S WHEN QUERIED DIRECTLY EVER HAVING EVEN MET HIS FRIEND’S PRODGENY LET ALONE MANAGE HIM AS A PROSPECTIVE CATCHER AS STERLING BIO CONTENDS.
FOR YEARS JEFF’S FINGERPRINTS CAN BE TRACED TO NUMEROUS MET EMBARASSING REVELATIONS SUCH AS THE “SECRET VET GROUP ATTENDED BY FRANCO, LIETER, GLAVINE & OTHERS THAT SURREPTICOUSLY INFLUENCED CERTAIN DECISION AS THE ROOTS WERE TRACED TO REGULARL;Y HELD FAMILY BBQ GET TOGETHERS @ JEFF’S. ANOTHER JEFF GEM WAS HIS PERSONALLY HIRING RICK PETERSON TO SERVE HIM AS C.O.O IN THE CAPACITY OF FRANCHISE PITCHING CONSULTANT DUBBED “PITCHING GURU aka PITCHING CZAR BY THE PRESS AT THE TIME FROM WHENCE PETERSON WENT ON A JEFFREY SPONSORED CAMPAIGN OF TALENT EVALUATION THAT BASCLY DECIMATED THE MEDIOCORE/LONGSHOT PITCHING INVENTORY COLLECTED OVER YEARS BY PHILLIPS AS POTENTIAL TRADE COMMODITIES
LASTLY AS THE REPORTED INSTIGATOR BEHIND CONVINCING DAD TO “TAKE ADVANTAGE OF HIS PERSONAL RELATIUONSHIP WITH BERNIE MADOFF BY INVESTING HEAVILY WITH HIM..
CAN’T SAY NELSON DOUBLEDAY DIDN’T WARN EVERYONE THE DAY STERLING ANOUNCED JEFF AS NYM COO(OR AS I PREFER) “C.UH.OH!”
I FEINTLY RECALL WORDS LIKE SNOTTY AROGANT, & SOB BEING MENTIONED.
Hi 62,
Coming from a Jewish family myself with much less financial means (my Dad drove a delivery truck and cab) I know how much most Jewish families place on education.
As far as the personal comments others attribute to Jeff, my only experience is a story a collegue of mine told me. Before coming here, she worked for a financial institute and said that father and son were both in the offices one day for whatever reason I forgot. She did tell me that after she left, her boss said to her something on the lines of at least one of them being a total idiot.