I never ever ever ever said he had anything to do with Jose Canseco and I never ever ever ever ever said he scouted the players.

And after just one full year involved in baseball operations, which you interpret as player development, he developed the skill and talent to evaluate raw talent and decided to draft McGwire? I have attached numerous articles written by PROFESSIONAL MLB SCOUTS AND SCOUTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE WORKED WITH MLB (which means you were only mistaking about this while I was instead a liar?) that batting and pitching statistics are virtually useless and it’s a rating system based on mechanics, adaption, physic, mental ability, etc. that leads to the recommendations and decisions.

Again I never ever ever ever ever said he developed the skills to develope raw talent. Now do you see why I call you a liar. I said he made the baseball decisions with the INPUT FROM HIS ENTIRE STAFF. YOU SAID BILL RIGNEY DID. Rigney was involved in the process he didn’t make final decisons.

I just proved to you that Bill Rigney was a consultant and a broadcaster and now your saying that I said Sandy developed the skills to evaluate talent as a scout. He evaluated MLB players with statistical analysis and no college stats are not useless. They are used today. You don’t see 150 hitters in college drafted. You see hitters with good statistics drafted. HS is a different story.

Go back to the archives and look at the links I left back when this nonsense started that said he decided to take McGwire over the other 2 his scouts recommended due to his power and on base skills. What is so hard to understand? He didn’t make all the damn draft picks. GM’s only stick around for the first few rounds. The rest is left to the director of scouting. Some GM’s don’t get involved with the draft at all.

I showed articles naming each trade he made and free agent signing and you tried to say that Bill Rigney made those choices. He advised. He consulted he did not make the final decision. You have never ever ever showed anything that backs your claim that Rigney was the architect and that’s because that evidence does not exist. He consulted. But I’m sure you’re going to try and change the point because you refuse to admit you’ve been wrong all this time.

You had credited Sandy Alderson on numerous occasions for drafting Jose Canseco in 1982, Terry Steinbach in 1983 and Marc McGwire in 1984.

He was the Vice President and General Counsel functioning in the role of General Manager in 1982 so both Canseco and Steinbach (given Sandy just took the job) could not have been his calls.

And after just one full year involved in baseball operations, which you interpret as player development, he developed the skill and talent to evaluate raw talent and decided to draft McGwire? I have attached numerous articles written by PROFESSIONAL MLB SCOUTS AND SCOUTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE WORKED WITH MLB (which means you were only mistaking about this while I was instead a liar?) that batting and pitching statistics are virtually useless and it’s a rating system based on mechanics, adaption, physic, mental ability, etc. that leads to the recommendations and decisions.

So, as he was apponted General Counsel he was immediately able to just go ahead and evaluate Caneseco? As he was apponted VP in Baseball Operations he immediately was able to do the same with Steinbach? And one year into the job did the same with McGwire?

Having in the past always crediting Sandy for at least the first two draft selections in question shows a contridiction with what you say now. Could just be an honest mistake on your part when doing further research – not one being a liar.

Metsie August 31, 2012 at 12:08 am .

Yeah funny but wh was the one who wrote the piece and got attacked by all of you when he said Ike should stay and work things out?

http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/06/mmo-fan-shot-can-we-all-just-get-off-ike-davis-back-already.html

I note Kay, Jessup, TRS were all on the WRONG side of that issue!

Fonzie didn’t even bother to post because I guess he was too busy attacking JoeyD that day!

You accused all of them of attacking you in that piece and even accused me of attacking someone else, all of which did not happen.

Joe D August 28, 2012 at 9:59 am .

The Alderson defense has become so acrimonious that it’s like a fight to the death.

Note he didn’t Say Alderson Criticizers in that sentence!

I suggest if you folks have problems and are convinced your little angels who have NEVER done any wrong that you Write to JoeD and get me banned!

Good Luck!

I never said Rigney was stripped from anything. He was in his mid 60′s, he may have not wanted to be a GM. That role was given to a legal mind it’s a fact. It was out of the ordinary but a fact none the less. The Lansford deal was struck in 1982 before Alderson became GM. Below is just one of many links stating that Rigney was a front office consultant and a broadcaster for the A’s. I’m not naive. It is what it is. history can’t be changed although I’d like to change Met history a bit the fact is it can’t be done.

http://www.centerfieldmaz.com/2011/01/former-new-york-giants-player-manager.html

Here’s another link that states Rigney is a consultant to Eisenhardt and Alderson.

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-06-16/sports/sp-2825_1_bill-rigney

“That post you are referring to was in response to a point made by another whom agrees with you on Alderson’s role in Oakland (I will not mention names so not to put that individual into the middle of this). It regarded the subject of how one gets to the position of general manager in terms of player personnel decisions and that individual pointed out that one just does not come off the street and takes over such a position – which is what you infer with the first statement I have just quoted”

Again I never said he came off the street. I said he worked in the front office for 2 years before he became the GM. You are the one that said he came in off the street “Cold”. I honestly never heard Alderson use the term “Cold”. I saw an interview he did and he said when he was named GM he had no backround in scouting and player developement which is why he turned to the works of Bill James and Eric Walker and adopted statistical analysis. You call it computer analysis. That’s wrong.

Try reading what I say and not what you hope I said in hopes of calling me a liar for what you thought I said not what I actually said!

You attacked me first in this thread!

Kay August 30, 2012 at 6:37 pm .

You mean like yourself?

And since you fired the first shot between me and you, I fired back! Don’t like that? Don’t fire off shots and feign innocence when the bullets come the other way!

“Are you unintentionally trying to pass off to the viewers here that Sandy Alderson wasn’t the man making player personnel decisions for the A’s during his first 9 years when he was the GM and a semi retired special assistant and consultant and Broadcaster Bill Rigney was the guy who built those teams? Is trying to pass that off as fact unintentional? ”

Referring to one who had approximately a 40 year career in the game as a player, manager, scout and front office man who even you admitted called the shots at the winter meetings that landed Carney Lansford as “a semi retired special assistant and consultant and Broadcaster” and implying that role was then stripped from him and given to a legal mind whose only experience in the business of baseball was being it’s general counsel and who described himself as an outsider coming in cold – I think that is trying to pass off something to the viewers – though not intentional on your part but one of being quite naive.

“So Joey you’re saying that you unintentionally made a post that I said something I never said? ”

That post you are referring to was in response to a point made by another whom agrees with you on Alderson’s role in Oakland (I will not mention names so not to put that individual into the middle of this). It regarded the subject of how one gets to the position of general manager in terms of player personnel decisions and that individual pointed out that one just does not come off the street and takes over such a position – which is what you infer with the first statement I have just quoted.

Just because the writer of that post used different words, the meaning was the same and that is what I attributed to you. Your own statement above confirms that is your position.

Shakespeare wrote somethng about a rose by any other word. What matters is what something is, not what it is called – or in this case, described.

You are right, in part, I really don’t need to respond to the nonsense you post because 99% of the posters here, can see right through your crap and know you for what you are, I don’t need to point it out the obvious.

Kay June 9, 2012 at 9:15 am

I think this goes far beyond whether Ike has cost the team wins or losses. It’s about getting this guy on the right track, same track we all thought he’d be on since we’ve initially seen him.

Fair assumption is the bulk of this fan base really does like Ike and wishes him to do well, obviously as Mets fans and for him personally.

Looking long term, sending him down may be the best for him and the team, even if its just for a few weeks. As far as his fielding, he’s been good, but lets not make him out to be Keith Hernandez out there. All season adjustments have had to be made, I believe it’s in our best interest to get him on the right track and get that help in the minors.

Metsie June 9, 2012 at 11:52 am

Key no one is saying Ike doesn’t need to be fixed…

The Question I was asking but went over most peoples head is how good is this team that everyone thinks Ike is holding back?

Are we the best team in baseball but are being denied that title because of Ike?

There were 2 more exchanges – but don’t wont to bore the rest of the readers, they can use the link, maybe you should too.

So Joey you’re saying that you unintentionally made a post that I said something I never said? Are you unintentionally trying to pass off to the viewers here that Sandy Alderson wasn’t the man making player personnel decisions for the A’s during his first 9 years when he was the GM and a semi retired special assistant and consultant and Broadcaster Bill Rigney was the guy who built those teams? Is trying to pass that off as fact unintentional?

Everyone else who has disagreed on my take has said in one way or the other- politely or not so politely – that I am interpreting things differently and wrong in my conclusions but not that I lie.

Well you did claim Des attacked you when he said your opinion was just your conjecture the same day I said you don’t back up your opinion as fact when in one of your 400 posts claiming Bill Rigney was the man who built the A’s teams and not the GM and VP of baseball ops when you decided to stay away for 2 weeks. You also said MNJ insults you but is coy about it. I don’t think you can honestly say either of us 3 insulted you. You took it as an insult.

Remember, you were the one who was told by the owner of the website – not privately but in public for everyone to read – to rise above the gutter or something to that extent.

Remember I was one of three who was told that because I abbreviated the F-word not because I insulted you. I mean how many times can you bring up Bill Rigney’s role with those A’s teams on a Mets blog especially what you are claiming isn’t true. Like I said you keep bringing it up to stir up another flame war. There would be no other reason to talk about the Oakland A’s from 30 years ago over and over and over.

See that’s a lie. I only call people a liar when they are lying. I do not call people a liar in every case. Maybe I say it quite often about you because you often lie like you are right now.

“And your case everyone seem to be a liar you have called just about everyone here one at one point or another!”

Nope, not everyone just 3. I’ve only seen 3 people lie here.

Here is my suggestion to you…

If you want to whine whenever you get insulted stop insulting people!

Here’s a suggestion! Practice what you preach. You have insulted 3 different people in this thread and none of them insulted you. I only retaliate to insults. I only have this problem with a select few from the Core because that select few insulted me first including Alex who called me an idiot and a piece of shit for saying it sure seems like you’re happy Wheeler got bombed cause you only bring him up when he pitches poorly. I got cursed out for that and I stooped to his level. Joe D saw the whole thing.

If you want to insult People expect to get insulted back!

I’ll only insult when I get insulted. The first debate I got into with you about last years WC race when I disagreed with you that the Mets were as good as the Cards you called me every name in the book and I never retaliated in that thread. From that point on I insult you when you insult me.

And if you think you should be free to insult and be able to go crying to Joe when someone gives it back then you will learn a very hard lesson soon enough…Keep it up!

Once again I’ll spell it out for you. I don’t throw the first punch. you insult me I’m giving it right back to you and I never go crying to Joe so if you don’t want me to call you a liar again then don’t say I go running to Joe. He saw with his own eyes who attacked who in the shoutbox and acted accordingly.

Why are you free to insult? Why are you free to badger people who don’t agree with you. why do you bring people up in your comments who are not even involved in your debate?

(Now THATS Instigating!)

You also claimed Mr North and Des attacked you and neither one of them did. You said I claimed Alderson drafted Canseco and I never said that. You said many people contend that Bill Rigney was the person responsible for building the A’s and not Sandy Alderson. 2 people made that claim not many.

Are you now going to start saying this every night about calling you a liar. It was certainly justified because you have lied. Your opinion is your right but when you keep trying to pass it as a fact you can’t get insulted when you are called out for it. Especially when you constantly repeat it.

And as far as Kay Jessep and TRS attacking you, that is 100% false. The respectfully disagreed with you. You were the one who insulted TRS in a few of your comments and he didn’t even retaliate. Kay didn’t even come close to saying anything insulting. This is why I call you a liar. And no I was not attacking Joey. I have never attacked him. I have only called him out for not backing his claims and lying about things I said that I didn’t say.

You even said in a comment to TRS that you had ultier motives for writing that article because you knew it would incite negative comments towards you and Ike so you were obviously looking for confrontation.

” But I did want to get all those on record who two weeks ago were slamming others for being negative about some player performances as NOT FANS and bringing back up their own excuse for chastizing us for being negative when they said We are fighting for the playoffs and are above .500! WHy the gripes”

You know why people were slamming others 2 weeks prior for being negative and not fans? Because despite the fact that Wright was hitting 380 with a 500 OB% and a 600 Slg% a certain group of people were nitpicking everything the guy does. Ike’s situation was an entirely different case. He was lost. It wasn’t the worst idea in the world to send him down and hopefully right himself. Wright was carrying the team and was treated by a small group of people IE the Core like he was Richie Hebner circa 1979.

Also I didn’t comment once in that thread but you brought me up and it which shows you are the instigator here.