31
2012
Jon Rauch Is Leading An Effective Resurgence In The Mets Bullpen
An article by 
When the Mets signed Jon Rauch who was coming off one of his worst seasons in his career, there may have been none that were more critical of giving him a $3.5 million dollar guaranteed contract than I was. In fact, at the time and considering how little money we had to spend, I still say it was a questionable move for a pitcher who was expeted to provide middle relief and occasional setup opportunities. But the beauty of this game is that sometimes you just get lucky.
Rauch did little to disprove my initial thoughts after chugging along to the tune of a 4.02 ERA in the first half that included a 4.50 ERA in June and an unsightly 5.56 ERA in May. Honestly, it looked like bust city for the man with the dragon tattoo. But suddenly, things started to come together for the 6 foot, 11 inch right-hander when the calendar turned to July. In 11 appearances, Rauch posted a scintillating 1.17 ERA, and as we close out the month of August his ERA now stands at 0.93 in 14 appearances which includes his perfect eight inning last night.
So far in the second half, Rauch has held batters to a .111 batting average and has allowed just two earned runs compared to fourteen in the first half. It’s been a dramatic turnaround for him, which now begs the questions of whether or not we bring him back in 2013.
Rauch will obviously look to gain more than his current $3.5 million, but with Frank Francisco already locked into a $6.5 million dollar contract for next season, it remains very questionable that Rauch will be here for a repeat performance in 2013. It’s something to think about.
Meanwhile, in recent weeks the Mets bullpen overall has seen a big improvement and in fact the pen has not allowed a run in its last five games, spanning 13.1 innings. Closer Frank Francisco pitched a 1-2-3 ninth inning yesterday for his 22nd save of the season which ranks 11th in the league. Josh Edgin has been hit or miss which is usually the case with a rookie reliever, but he has shown some flashes of brilliance. Bobby Parnell is still Bobby Parnell and despite his 100 mph heater he can be maddeningly inconsistent and oftentimes frustrating especially in high leverage situations.
The Mets still need some serious help in this bullpen and I would suspect some more revamping to take place this offseason, but for now they have been very effective so lets hope it lasts.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 30 | .583 | - |
| Phillies | 35 | 37 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Nationals | 34 | 36 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Mets | 27 | 40 | .403 | 12.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 48 | .314 | 19.0 |
Last updated: 06/19/2013
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When the Mets signed Jon Rauch who was coming off one of his worst seasons in his career, there may have been none that were more critical of giving him a $3.5 million dollar guaranteed contract than I was”
The CORE might have something to say about that, also. as good as he’s been, it’s 135 games TOO LATE no??
The Mets were in contention before the All-Star break. Then there was a 2-3 week stretch where Rauch, and everyone else in the bullpen, lost every single game. We went from thinking about the playoffs, to having our season completely over, in the span of 3 weeks. And that was 100% on the bullpen.
So now that the games are totally meaningless, I’m having a hard time with the cheers for how great our bullpen is.
The best you can say is after the bullpen ruined our 2012 season, they’ve pitched better. Is that something to get happy about?
Spot on! Good job Mex on pointing out what most won’t ever realize because they look for any tiny success they can find to make this GM look like some damned savior.
So the bullpen is doing great in meaningless games that don’t mean shit, lets bring them all back. Gimme a break!
The idiots have are coming, the idiots are coming. Have you had your slurp today?
My good friend… I’ll have a pepsi please since it’s only 11:38 in the morning! Slurp Away!!!!!!!!!!
I this a good time to claim Rauch is just playing for a contract? LOL
Metsie, i said the same thing, after he STUNK it up when the team could’ve used more wins he now turns the page and we’re supposed to be happy? No, it’s clear to me he’s playing this well for his contract for next year, and don’t you know, i already started seeing idiotic comments about him being worth every penny SMH
So the Mets did not need more wins from June 25th until now?
You planning on actually disussing anything here this week or just going to throw out dumb questions to anyone you don’t like?
You plan on talking about anything other than Sandy Alderson?
Lets see how long we can respond to each other in questions.
Or you could try answering the questions. Alex said “he STUNK it up when the team could’ve used more wins ” and my question is that couldn’t the Mets have used more wins during the time that he did start pitching well? In fact his slump was actually absorbed by the Mets quite well as they remained in contention the entire time. However, you can’t say the same thing once FF went down.
I have….Plenty this week….have you?
If we didnt’t mention Sandy you would really have no reason to post here so you should be thanking us for giving you the opening your obviously not getting on your own site!
FREEEE PLUGGGG, thanks again for bringing my blog into it. Each time you do, one of the countless readers here that think you are a joke, click on my name and head to my blog. I am very appreciative that you continue to bring it up. If you had only started this three years ago we would have much more than the 1400+ registered users and 200,000+ comments made in those three years. Thanks again, should I send you part of our advertising check?
“click on my name and head to my blog….”
See nothing worth reading or responding to and move on because if they stayed and posted you would be there replying not here looking to get your link into 1000 posts hoping someone will click on your name and go there!
Lets be serious a moment Metsie. I play off the insults as free press but do your really think the 10 people here that click on my name because of you really make a difference in the 1,000′s of views we get per month? We get those due to the fact that we have been around for three years, not because I come here.
Get over yourself no one clicks on your name because I metioned you have a website!
The point remains if things are so active over there why do you spend your entire day here trying to make 200 comment threads and not trying to do that back on your own site?
Because there is no one to bait into a long boring conversation back at your home?
Sure the do Metsie. Not many but a few and I appreciate your mentioning. Many people have links in their names here. I am proud of my blog so why wouldn’t I link to it when there is a box in the registration for Website?
Again, why am I here? Because I am there as well. I know… multitasking.
If it’s so busy over ther whay are you here all day and not there asking all these questions you seem to have?
I bet you have made MORE posts just in this thread alone than you have made in EVERY ARTICLE on your site today!
Free Plug?? Where did metsie mention desert??? HE’s telling you to basically go take care of a blog that has 3 to 7 comments at most in each article… Sad but true.
It’s quite understandable why he is here Alex….
He can’t outright post a link to his site but if he leaves 100 posts that contain a link to his site he gets a jump in google ranking and the potential to drive traffic to his hole in the internet!
If you will notice Alex, I am never the one to bring up my blog. That’s on you guys. So as I said I do appreciate the press. While we may not be MMO, which I still say is the best Mets blog, we have our own thing going with 3 years of hard work from many different authors including some who call MMO their home. Due to that hard work we have 1400+ registered users and have 200,000+ comments during that time. Again, I am not ashamed of my blog or the hard work that those people put in.
Also Metsie, I am sure you must have no idea how Google rankings work, but if you want to be the highest on the list it has nothing to do with how many times my name appears on this site. But thanks for the tip.
“I am never the one to bring up my blog.”
You bring up your site everytime you post by having your nick link to your site!
And since you didn’t know Goolge Ranking are based on how many sites link to yours and how often!
So everytime you post using your nick the Google Spider sees a link and credits you with being linked to in the ranking system!
I’ll bet you post on many different blogs to be sure that linkage is crawled and helps you with Google!
If you were not interested in pumping traffic to your site you would not have you nick link to it!
The biggest determination of Google ranking or where you appear in a Google search has much more to do with what is on your actual page. Having that key word splattered every where on your site. The second part does have to do with back links but comment links are not part of the page. Thanks though.
Only where Keywords are concerned!
But the ranking of where you show up in the list of ALL SITES that fit the keywords is in how many sites link to yours as the Google Spider ASSumes that if many sites link to your the content on your site must be meaningfull since sites link to that!
Unfortunatly Spiders can;t really determine what keywords actually are useful and what links are to good content or just meaningless drivel with a keyword list at the end of the page!
Google also uses the meta Data in the HTML header to determine keywords as well.
i know you think because you RUN a site (I actually code and design them and make sure they are best SEF and SEO friendly) you might know more than me….But here is a little lesson to illustrate what I’m saying here, Maybe you will learn but more likely you will not!
http://www.webworkshop.net/pagerank.html
“PageRank is a numeric value that represents how important a page is on the web. Google figures that when one page links to another page, it is effectively casting a vote for the other page. The more votes that are cast for a page, the more important the page must be. Also, the importance of the page that is casting the vote determines how important the vote itself is. Google calculates a page’s importance from the votes cast for it. How important each vote is is taken into account when a page’s PageRank is calculated”
And from Google itself
“In general, webmasters can improve the rank of their sites by increasing the number of high-quality sites that link to their pages”
http://support.google.com/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=34432
OK twist that slappy and I’ll see ya after lunch!
Lmao, holy crap!!! i just saw that metsie!!!!!!!!!
ZZZZZZZIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow, TRS, what you got to say to that?????? Lmao…..
I’m going to play one more round of lets see who can askthe most questions….
Would we have needed those wins after June to stay in contentions if we hadn’t screwed the pooch and the Division lead with the sucky performance of our Bullpen before that?
AND
Would Sandy have given up on a team that was only 3 or 4 games out of the Division if that Sucky Pen didn’t cost us the games that would have put us in the lead before the ASG and the week after the ASG had us ahead or tied with the Nats and Braves around the same time Sandy waved the white flag and gave up on the season?
We should have (if the pen didn’t suck) have led the Division going into the ASG!
Would have even had a 2 or 3 game lead which meant the 5 game losing streak that followed the ASG would have left us just 2 or 3 games behind the nats when Sandy gave up in his second consecutive July!
LOL well truth is, Knowing Sandy, he’s likely to be resigned by us anyway!
I hope so, I certainly wouldn’t mind him being back and dumping FF. Seriously, even with his poor 15 games he has a WHIP under 1.00. You mean that if there was a FA with a 3.00 ERA or below with a WHIP under 1.00 for a reasonable price you wouldn’t want Sandy to sign him?
Dumping FF? Ahh assumptions. lol So we dump FF bring back Rauch to close at lets say $6MM and essentially pay $12.5MM for the closer? That’s K-Rod money. lol
I did not say release FF. I said dump him, which implies that you can get either part of the money back in return or another usable player in the return.
I also have a hard time thinking he will get 6M per year, but I guess it will depend on the market. My idea is for him to co-close with Edgin. You think anyone else will offer him a full-time closing job? I wouldn’t think so, but if they do then bye-bye Johnny.
Co-close with Edgin? That’s one way to make sure they don’t overuse him.
I’ve seen a few comments on Met fans coming down on Terry for over using Edgin since he’s been up here.
In fact, they’re discussing it on the pre game show right now too.
I’m not really worried about it. He’s 25 and they’ll be bringing up some arm reinforcements in a couple of days. Going into next season, I expect he won’t be the lone lefty out in that pen.
He got $3.5mil as a scrapheap signing coming off worst season ever. You dont think he’ll get $6mil the going rate for setup men? I disagree.
“….you wouldn’t want Sandy to sign him?”
I’m at the point where I don’t want Sandy to sign anyone because he sucks at evaluating talent! And the guys he likes to sign aren’t worth having even at the prices he gets them for!
We started two years ago with the Bullpen being the focus need to improve….
Two years later whats the focus going to be again this year?
The Bullpen!
EVEN if he manages to fix it this time (third times the charm principle) anyone who takes 3 years to fix a bullpen has no business running an MLB team!
OK, I understand. So this off-season you want Sandy not to sign anyone. However, I am sure most would be ok with the addition of a guy who has an ERA around 3.00 and a WHIP of under 1.00.
Sure I would be happy if some other GM signed him…The best signing this team could make would be a new GM!
I already got your answer Metsie, no need to clarify it. You do not want Sandy to sign anyone this off-season. I got it.
Yep I want him fired!
Now twist that to your hearts content!
I am not twisting anything you said. You keep saying that but I am just not arguing with your points. I understand that you do not want Sandy to sign anyone this off-season because you fear his decision making ability. Completely understood.
Twist
Reality
Senselessly!
I get the Nick now!
I said I want Sandy fired if he is fired he can’t sign anyone!
If he is here of course he SHOULD sign someone but it will be for nothing cause he sucks at evaluating talent!
“I don’t want Sandy to sign anyone because he sucks at evaluating talent!” I am not sure how I can twist that. Again, why do you keep clarifying the comments you have already made and are understood?
You do not want Sandy to sign anyone this off-season because you fear his judgment. I got it already. This is turning into the same as the you wanted the Mets to trade for Agonz to replace Johan’s veteran leadership when he went down. We got it.
I don’t want Sandy here to sign anyone!
Now go a try and twist that to put words in my mouth Buttwipe!
Why do you keep clarifying what you said over and over again. We got it already. You are now just making your self look bad, especially throwing in needless insults.
You clearly said you did not want Sandy to sign anyone because you fear his judgment and I understand your point of view. Why do you keep repeating it? It’s understood.
Buttwipe? I thought you weren’t the first one to throw insults.
Why do you keep trying to change what I said?
“I don’t want Sandy to sign anyone because he sucks at evaluating talent!”
Right that doesn’t mean the NY mets should not sign anyone….
It means Sandy should be fired so he CAN’T sign anyone!
You keep trying to twist it to mean what you want that if Sandy stays he should not sign anyone!
You usual game!
I am not twisting anything. Given that later on in the statement you talk about him trying to fix the pen then it’s a given he’s gonna be here.
“I’m at the point where I don’t want Sandy to sign anyone because he sucks at evaluating talent! And the guys he likes to sign aren’t worth having even at the prices he gets them for!”
That is what you said. There is nothing to twist.
Sure you are nothing I said was taking Sandy being here as a GIVEN!
I never once said he should stay and sign no one!
I said exactly what I meant in the last post and no I see your trying to make more crap up to try and cloud what was as clear as day!
I also notice you dropped out of trying to school me on Google are we done there for good?
Yeah, I dropped out of that one because I know exactly what I did do to get my site near the top of two specific searches related to Mets and Mets blogging and it worked. Linking it here is not one of them.
Again, I can’t twist what you said by taking and repeating your quotes word for word. You do that enough on your own. Later buddy.
AH yeah you THINK you know what you didto increase the traffic I KNOW what you did and your doing it again today!
This site is well ranked! Google deems it important!
Undo whatever it is you think you did and guess what it will remain ranked that high due to your constant creation of 200 post comment pages with your link appearing in them!
Metsie, go to Google and search for Mets Blog and see where we come up. That is the only thing I care about in terms of Google. As for your insistence that it has anything to do with linking in the comment section, I am sorry it doesn’t and even if it did it would be so minuscule that it would be as trivial as one of your arguments.
But again, I do appreciate all the free press that you continue to give. Now can we move on from about my site? I would actually prefer you never mention it.
And what pray tell do you think you did to get to the bottom of the page just ahead of a bunch of blogspot sites? LOL
You obviously don’t understand how Google works you should try reading the links I posted as it was being linked here (and I’m sure other Met Blogs you go to) that probably had the majority influence on how high you got ranked!
NJ.com’s site is right behind you!
Look no one really cares how you get whatever traffic you get because in the end the point I made remains…
If it was getting enough traffic you wouldn’t spend all day here or be making more posts in one Article posted on MMO than you do on your entire site!
What basically is going on here is you opened a luncheonette and then go to the Diner next door to eat because you want someone to talk to!
Wrong again Metsie. I visit many Mets sites, we started TRDM because we all loved to comment on multiple sites and when Metsblog shut down we needed somewhere to go.
Again, when you type in Mets Blog on Google Search, we are behind
Metsblog
Mets Blog
Amazin Avenue
Mets Minor League Blog
Lohud
MMO
Kranepool
If you type in Metsblog then we actually leap over MMO to 6th. Could it be because we have “blog” in our title?
Where we don’t do well is when you just type in Mets? Why? Because we are a blog, not a Mets news site.
At one point we were much lower even though we had more traffic than we actually do now? How did I change it? By making sure Mets and Blog were all over the site. What happen? We went up about 10 spots instantly. Also Pagerank gives a ranking to individual pages not websites. Thus me commenting in a story on John Rauch isn’t going to do a dang thing. Now if all of my comments were linking to the MMO homepage? Then I would be doing something, huh?
Now can we please drop the subject of my blog?
“I visit many Mets sites….”
Yep precisely my point…I bet most have a way to link your username to your site and by posting there you add a link to thier site that increases your rank on Google!
Thanks for paying attention. Now let’s see if you can slow down and think. ONE again the page itself would need a high rank… this page doesn’t but the main page does. TWO I would spend all my time on Metsblog and Mets Blog not here if I was out for views. THREE if Joe doesn’t care that I come here, why do you? Of course we already know the answer to that.
I ddn’t say I cared you came here…
I merely stated that traffic was so low on your site which is why your here all day and using your Nick Linkage to get more traffic so maybe one day you will be busy enough to stay on your own!
Nope you don’t care at all…
Nope and never once have I complained when you stay on topic!
I only complain when you take subjects you don’t like and try to turn them into something else to avoid the original topic!
But i DO find it odd you spend more time here than your own site….
Specially when you have it ranked so high using your special secret sauce that has nothing to do with you putting links to your site on every met blog in creation! LOL
Boy you sure do spend a lot of time on something you don’t care about.
Also if you read, I told you exactly how I increased our search results and it had othing to do with links and we did it in five minutes.
No I don’t! You just think I spend a lot of time here but I actually type rather quickly and will always respond to you when you reply!
I’m polite that way! LOL
Well Said Mex!
Anyone can find a way to qualify out the suck, and manipulate the story to only show the good stats!
Hell Ramon Ramirez was lights out in June with a 0.00 ERA!
nevermind he only pitched in 2 games and 2.2 innings giving up 2 hits!
As I pointed out the changes in Rauch’s number have everything to do with how he is being used.
In games where there is a lead he has been used as a RH Specialist or to get a single out.
The times he gets a full inning are in games where we are already losing!
He is being used far less than he was in May and June!
Which explains why he looks better, less chance to screw the pooch!
Less chance for a batter to adjust to him.
Less chance to give up a HR!
Hi Mex,
Good going! You speak for many of us.
A similar argument could be made for the turnaround in Ike Davis.
Kay — Touché.
That’s a good point Kay. Hey, I heard you don’t make baseball points. lol
You have to be able to read and understand about basebal to follow, clearly it!s not that easy for some.
Yeah funny but wh was the one who wrote the piece and got attacked by all of you when he said Ike should stay and work things out?
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/06/mmo-fan-shot-can-we-all-just-get-off-ike-davis-back-already.html
I note Kay, Jessup, TRS were all on the WRONG side of that issue!
Fonzie didn’t even bother to post because I guess he was too busy attacking JoeyD that day!
Hi Metsie,
Don’t feel so left out — I’m sure Fonzie found some time to attack you that day when taking an occasional break from calling me a liar.
Instigating I see Joey. I wouldn’t have called you a liar if you didn’t lie about things I said when I didn’t say them. I also saw you in the shoutbox one night lying to Maniac that I attacked you when I said I wish you would back up your claim with facts which is not an attack.
You also claimed Mr North and Des attacked you and neither one of them did. You said I claimed Alderson drafted Canseco and I never said that. You said many people contend that Bill Rigney was the person responsible for building the A’s and not Sandy Alderson. 2 people made that claim not many.
Are you now going to start saying this every night about calling you a liar. It was certainly justified because you have lied. Your opinion is your right but when you keep trying to pass it as a fact you can’t get insulted when you are called out for it. Especially when you constantly repeat it.
Liar!
(Now THATS Instigating!)
Hi Fonzie,
“Are you unintentionally trying to pass off to the viewers here that Sandy Alderson wasn’t the man making player personnel decisions for the A’s during his first 9 years when he was the GM and a semi retired special assistant and consultant and Broadcaster Bill Rigney was the guy who built those teams? Is trying to pass that off as fact unintentional? ”
Referring to one who had approximately a 40 year career in the game as a player, manager, scout and front office man who even you admitted called the shots at the winter meetings that landed Carney Lansford as “a semi retired special assistant and consultant and Broadcaster” and implying that role was then stripped from him and given to a legal mind whose only experience in the business of baseball was being it’s general counsel and who described himself as an outsider coming in cold – I think that is trying to pass off something to the viewers – though not intentional on your part but one of being quite naive.
“So Joey you’re saying that you unintentionally made a post that I said something I never said? ”
That post you are referring to was in response to a point made by another whom agrees with you on Alderson’s role in Oakland (I will not mention names so not to put that individual into the middle of this). It regarded the subject of how one gets to the position of general manager in terms of player personnel decisions and that individual pointed out that one just does not come off the street and takes over such a position – which is what you infer with the first statement I have just quoted.
Just because the writer of that post used different words, the meaning was the same and that is what I attributed to you. Your own statement above confirms that is your position.
Shakespeare wrote somethng about a rose by any other word. What matters is what something is, not what it is called – or in this case, described.
“Referring to one who had approximately a 40 year career in the game as a player, manager, scout and front office man who even you admitted called the shots at the winter meetings that landed Carney Lansford as “a semi retired special assistant and consultant and Broadcaster” and implying that role was then stripped from him and given to a legal mind whose only experience in the business of baseball was being it’s general counsel and who described himself as an outsider coming in cold – I think that is trying to pass off something to the viewers – though not intentional on your part but one of being quite naive”
I never said Rigney was stripped from anything. He was in his mid 60′s, he may have not wanted to be a GM. That role was given to a legal mind it’s a fact. It was out of the ordinary but a fact none the less. The Lansford deal was struck in 1982 before Alderson became GM. Below is just one of many links stating that Rigney was a front office consultant and a broadcaster for the A’s. I’m not naive. It is what it is. history can’t be changed although I’d like to change Met history a bit the fact is it can’t be done.
http://www.centerfieldmaz.com/2011/01/former-new-york-giants-player-manager.html
Here’s another link that states Rigney is a consultant to Eisenhardt and Alderson.
http://articles.latimes.com/1985-06-16/sports/sp-2825_1_bill-rigney
“That post you are referring to was in response to a point made by another whom agrees with you on Alderson’s role in Oakland (I will not mention names so not to put that individual into the middle of this). It regarded the subject of how one gets to the position of general manager in terms of player personnel decisions and that individual pointed out that one just does not come off the street and takes over such a position – which is what you infer with the first statement I have just quoted”
Again I never said he came off the street. I said he worked in the front office for 2 years before he became the GM. You are the one that said he came in off the street “Cold”. I honestly never heard Alderson use the term “Cold”. I saw an interview he did and he said when he was named GM he had no backround in scouting and player developement which is why he turned to the works of Bill James and Eric Walker and adopted statistical analysis. You call it computer analysis. That’s wrong.
Fonzie,
You had credited Sandy Alderson on numerous occasions for drafting Jose Canseco in 1982, Terry Steinbach in 1983 and Marc McGwire in 1984.
He was the Vice President and General Counsel functioning in the role of General Manager in 1982 so both Canseco and Steinbach (given Sandy just took the job) could not have been his calls.
And after just one full year involved in baseball operations, which you interpret as player development, he developed the skill and talent to evaluate raw talent and decided to draft McGwire? I have attached numerous articles written by PROFESSIONAL MLB SCOUTS AND SCOUTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE WORKED WITH MLB (which means you were only mistaking about this while I was instead a liar?) that batting and pitching statistics are virtually useless and it’s a rating system based on mechanics, adaption, physic, mental ability, etc. that leads to the recommendations and decisions.
So, as he was apponted General Counsel he was immediately able to just go ahead and evaluate Caneseco? As he was apponted VP in Baseball Operations he immediately was able to do the same with Steinbach? And one year into the job did the same with McGwire?
Having in the past always crediting Sandy for at least the first two draft selections in question shows a contridiction with what you say now. Could just be an honest mistake on your part when doing further research – not one being a liar.
I credited him for McGwire and Steinbach not Canseco, Canseco was in the organization before Alderson became GM. I posted the article that said he drafted McGwire over Shane Mack and Oddibe McDowell for his power and on base potential rather than speed that the other 2 guys possesed. The article stated that those 3 players were recommended by his scouting staff and he made the decision to take McGwire based on his power potential. I posted numerous articles stating how the organizations drafting philosophy was his.
I never ever ever ever said he had anything to do with Jose Canseco and I never ever ever ever ever said he scouted the players.
And after just one full year involved in baseball operations, which you interpret as player development, he developed the skill and talent to evaluate raw talent and decided to draft McGwire? I have attached numerous articles written by PROFESSIONAL MLB SCOUTS AND SCOUTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE WORKED WITH MLB (which means you were only mistaking about this while I was instead a liar?) that batting and pitching statistics are virtually useless and it’s a rating system based on mechanics, adaption, physic, mental ability, etc. that leads to the recommendations and decisions.
Again I never ever ever ever ever said he developed the skills to develope raw talent. Now do you see why I call you a liar. I said he made the baseball decisions with the INPUT FROM HIS ENTIRE STAFF. YOU SAID BILL RIGNEY DID. Rigney was involved in the process he didn’t make final decisons.
I just proved to you that Bill Rigney was a consultant and a broadcaster and now your saying that I said Sandy developed the skills to evaluate talent as a scout. He evaluated MLB players with statistical analysis and no college stats are not useless. They are used today. You don’t see 150 hitters in college drafted. You see hitters with good statistics drafted. HS is a different story.
Go back to the archives and look at the links I left back when this nonsense started that said he decided to take McGwire over the other 2 his scouts recommended due to his power and on base skills. What is so hard to understand? He didn’t make all the damn draft picks. GM’s only stick around for the first few rounds. The rest is left to the director of scouting. Some GM’s don’t get involved with the draft at all.
I showed articles naming each trade he made and free agent signing and you tried to say that Bill Rigney made those choices. He advised. He consulted he did not make the final decision. You have never ever ever showed anything that backs your claim that Rigney was the architect and that’s because that evidence does not exist. He consulted. But I’m sure you’re going to try and change the point because you refuse to admit you’ve been wrong all this time.
You clearly misunderstood the point Kay made. The article was about how the pen has been very good albeit too little to late. What Mex and Kay were saying so has Ike’s resurgence. Too little to late in meaningless games. It had nothing to do with your fan shot.
And as far as Kay Jessep and TRS attacking you, that is 100% false. The respectfully disagreed with you. You were the one who insulted TRS in a few of your comments and he didn’t even retaliate. Kay didn’t even come close to saying anything insulting. This is why I call you a liar. And no I was not attacking Joey. I have never attacked him. I have only called him out for not backing his claims and lying about things I said that I didn’t say.
You even said in a comment to TRS that you had ultier motives for writing that article because you knew it would incite negative comments towards you and Ike so you were obviously looking for confrontation.
” But I did want to get all those on record who two weeks ago were slamming others for being negative about some player performances as NOT FANS and bringing back up their own excuse for chastizing us for being negative when they said We are fighting for the playoffs and are above .500! WHy the gripes”
You know why people were slamming others 2 weeks prior for being negative and not fans? Because despite the fact that Wright was hitting 380 with a 500 OB% and a 600 Slg% a certain group of people were nitpicking everything the guy does. Ike’s situation was an entirely different case. He was lost. It wasn’t the worst idea in the world to send him down and hopefully right himself. Wright was carrying the team and was treated by a small group of people IE the Core like he was Richie Hebner circa 1979.
Also I didn’t comment once in that thread but you brought me up and it which shows you are the instigator here.
LIAR! lol
This is why you are called a liar. There was NO attack, it was actually grown up people with their opinions that sometimes differ, and if you actually read what you just claim, you and I actually had civil back and forth. There is never a WRONG side of an opinion by the way and that is what that thread was all about.
Kay June 9, 2012 at 9:15 am
I think this goes far beyond whether Ike has cost the team wins or losses. It’s about getting this guy on the right track, same track we all thought he’d be on since we’ve initially seen him.
Fair assumption is the bulk of this fan base really does like Ike and wishes him to do well, obviously as Mets fans and for him personally.
Looking long term, sending him down may be the best for him and the team, even if its just for a few weeks. As far as his fielding, he’s been good, but lets not make him out to be Keith Hernandez out there. All season adjustments have had to be made, I believe it’s in our best interest to get him on the right track and get that help in the minors.
Metsie June 9, 2012 at 11:52 am
Key no one is saying Ike doesn’t need to be fixed…
The Question I was asking but went over most peoples head is how good is this team that everyone thinks Ike is holding back?
Are we the best team in baseball but are being denied that title because of Ike?
There were 2 more exchanges – but don’t wont to bore the rest of the readers, they can use the link, maybe you should too.
Did I say you attacked me in that thread Kay?
Try reading what I say and not what you hope I said in hopes of calling me a liar for what you thought I said not what I actually said!
You attacked me first in this thread!
Kay August 30, 2012 at 6:37 pm .
You mean like yourself?
And since you fired the first shot between me and you, I fired back! Don’t like that? Don’t fire off shots and feign innocence when the bullets come the other way!
Reply
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Metsie August 31, 2012 at 12:08 am .
Yeah funny but wh was the one who wrote the piece and got attacked by all of you when he said Ike should stay and work things out?
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/06/mmo-fan-shot-can-we-all-just-get-off-ike-davis-back-already.html
I note Kay, Jessup, TRS were all on the WRONG side of that issue!
Fonzie didn’t even bother to post because I guess he was too busy attacking JoeyD that day!
You accused all of them of attacking you in that piece and even accused me of attacking someone else, all of which did not happen.
Anyone who has paid any attention to what I’ve said know that soon after the signing of Rauch before he threw a pitch I said he started to grow on me as someone worth watching.
He got off to a good start pitching to a very good line over his 1st 13 games. He then had a terrible 15 game stretch but he started to turn the corner on June 12 and over his last 32 games he has pitched to a record of 0-1, 2/S, 10/H, 1.16/ERA, .111/BAA, 23.1/IP, 12 Inherited runners 0 Inherited runners scored.
But a lot of those numbers has to do with being used less.
Had a good April and March Pitched only 10.2 innings in those teo months combined.
Pitched 11.1 in May and had a horrible month!
Pitched two innings total in June before the date you say he turned it around, Two Losses the result of those three appearances. So he only pitched 6 more inning the rest of that month
Pitched 7.2 Inning in July and 9.2 Innings in August.
His better work corresponds with using him less and maybe just a tad more wisely!
He certainly is getting pulled quicker than he was!
And now the only time he pitches a full inning is in situations where we are already losing when he comes in and he couldn’t cost us the lead!
This whole Moneyball Mets philosophy has been fascinating to see if nothing else in these last two years. It’s been a real eye-opening experience.
Maniac, let me know when they start playing Moneyball and I will be able to make an observation as well. So far, who is the “Moneyball” signing or even trade? Moneyball wasn’t about just slashing payroll, teams all over many sports have been doing that for years. I am not sure we have brought in anyone that would be determined “Moneyball” yet.
“let me know when they start playing Moneyball and I will be able to make an observation as well.”
October 27th 2010!
So what have you observed?
One move associated with the theory of Moneyball that the Mets have made? Who has Sandy brought in for high on base percentage or who has he brought in for cheap undiscovered value?
More Questions eh?
How about Emaus?
How about Torres?
Willie Harris ring a bell?
What does Moneyball use to select Pitchers?
Metsie, I believe it was you who pointed out in another argument with a previous poster that Sandy wasn’t playing moneyball because his signings did not match those principals. I guess now you are changing it pending the argument.
Selecting a 2B to compete with other 2B on the team… not moneyball.
Trading a CF with a higher OBP for a CF with a lower OBP… classic moneyball.
Willie Harris? Are you serious? Does that mean Omar was a moneyballer?
I did say I see NO philosophy being used at all!
No Rhyme or reason to any move!
The closest philosopy that fits is Moneyball!
It’s ATTEMPTING to play Moneyball but it forgot the key piece of Moneyball…
The Deep Statistical Analysis part!
I’m not saying it’s not moneyball what I am saying is it a poor implementation of it despite that being what is attempted!
Sandy is playing Moneyball only without the statistical analysis involved…
If he IS using statistical analysis then it may not be OBP that he slected as the undervalued stat which anyone who read the book knows OBP was not the key to moneyball just the metric that was undervalued at the time!
So what metric Sandy thinks is undervalued these days is obviously not working but more likely the undervalued metric he is using to make decisions on is Payroll!
Anyone under 3 Mil a year is a undervalued player as fas as Sandy is concerned!
He is playing Moneyball but he has not figured out what metric he needs to use to make it work and has failed because of it!
LOL Eye Opening? I find myself closing my eyes hoping it all just goes away!
Especially when Ramirez is throwing the baseball!
I was a little skeptical, but the more and more he keeps talking, the more and more i am getting convinced TRS86 is either a moneyballer or a sabermetrician… Either way, he’d be a slurper candidate of the week sooner than expected
He’s a closet Moneyballer….
Most Moneyballers are!
Claim up and down they aren’t but the second you say somthing derogatory about Moneyball they come out guns a blazin!
I’m starting to think so as well…..
Why is it that “getting convinced TRS86 is either a moneyballer or a sabermetrician” is an insult to some people?
First of all, you’re calling him a title of a book – and don’t even know what the book was about.
But getting to the main point calling him a sabermetrician? You think that’s an insult? First of all – all sabermetrician’s as you call them have a very high understanding of math. Secondly, all sabermetrician’s also understand basic statistics such as bavg lets say. So you’re insulting him by saying he understands statistics… more than you?
If you think calling somebody a Sabermetrician is an insult – I suggest you write Bill James a letter and tell him you are smarter than him and see what happens.
Not saying this is the case here but it’s been my experience that people often mock what they do not understand.
And it’s my experience that people get INSULTED by being associated with things they believe in but are ashamed to admit it!
If you fight and defend Moneyball and think it is a good thing as Jessup and TRS have argued many times, then being called a Moneyballer should not be an insult to them! They should wear it as a badge of pride!
But while they argue and believe it is a good thing they get insulted when they get recognized for having that opinion!
You tell us why you think it’s an insult? Your one of those who gets insulted being named a supporter of a philosophy you defend whenever it is discussed!
Why would you feel insulted being named after a book that discusses a philosophy you actually believe is good?
I mean it’s kind of like being insulted by being called a christian when you believe in Jesus and his philosophy isn’t it?
Oh no – you are mistaken there. I don’t get insulted that you call me a name. I get insulted that you attach ideas to me that I never had.
I don’t come here and brag about sabr stats, ever. Yet you and others say I do. That’s the issue – if you wanna talk about my thoughts, at least take them as they are and don’t add your own spin to them.
Next time you or others insult TRS by calling him a sabermetrician – just say “your general understanding of mathematics far surpasses anything I can ever comprehend. Therefore, I mock you.”
It would be more to the point.
No you don’t come here to brag about Sabers but anytime someone dares to take issue with one your the frrst one to defend them!
So the SABR society have you on retainer as thier lawyer and your contractually obliged to defend them despite your belief they are guilty?
No you don’t come out and say your a moneyballer…
But whenever it is brought up who is the first to make a stink about it? (Hint: Look no further than this Comment thread!)
You get insulted for being identified as a defender of these philosophies!
If you didn’t run to be the first to defend what you don’t believe in you wouldn’t get labeld a Moneyballer or Saber rattler and therefore wouldn’t get insulted!
You only take it as an insult because you DO agree with both and defend them whenver they come up and it embarasses you so you get insulted for us pointing out how you constantly defend them!
Don’t wish to be labeld a moneyballer or be insulted as one then stop defending it!
I get offended when people name call and have no reason to do so. Attaching names to things that make no sense just so you can have the last word or insult somebody you do not even know?
You call me a moneyballer, tell me what that is exactly?
I assume it has to do with the Oakland A’s, so you’re calling me a name that represents 5 playoff teams in 7 years? The Mets FYI have 5 in 27 years.
So I guess I just don’t see the insult. Seems to me like you’re calling me a winner the likes you’ve never seen before.
So Thank You.
“You call me a moneyballer, tell me what that is exactly? ”
A person who believe Moneyball is a good sytem and defends it!
The only reason to be INSULTED for being called a Moneyballer is if you think it’s an AWFUL system, NEVER WORKS, and hate it as a philosophy….
Which of those applies to you and if any then why do you always argue counter to those beliefs?
Why is it that Jessep no longer chats in the shoutbox ever since me and the others got banned? Now that you did your job as Cleanup, where have you all gone? I bet you will all be back on September 1st right?
I’m sure people like Fonzie, Hitman, Vinny, Donal, Angelo, FP Mets and others can verify whether or not I have been in the Shoutbox.
The shoutbox has been an amazing feature for this site lately. I wonder why?
Thanks for keeping tabs on me though – or trying to at least.
An amazing feature? lol Page 15 goes back 3 days ago during a Mets winning streak!!! You were getting 30-40 pages a day before!!!! Amazing indeed!!!
Maniac, this is what he said to me one day in the shoutbox:
jessep I look forward to the day that Joe D finally eliminates you from this site. You bring nothing and I mean nothing to this site.
Now that he did his job in there, he now roams here to try to antagonize and twist everything we say.. The guy is not only a pathetic human being, but one of the worst kind of snakes there is… but again, we get the raw deal of it
Alex, I got emailed that I could come back on September 1st. My first reaction was to say go perform an unnatural sex act on yourself. But then I took a look at shoutbox convo and I felt pity for Joe D to go from 800-1000 comments a day to 30-40. lol So the Core will be back to breathe some life back into the amazing feature that is currently dead in the road.
Well actually the chatbox decreases the overall views because those post do not count as views. However, the ones in here do. Why do you think MB does not have a chatbox?
Never looked at it that way, but you are right. Matt Cerrone may no diddly about baseball but no one can say he doesnt know how to run a successful blog.
Yup, the only reason they even restored their comment section at MB was due to the decrease in page views. It doesn’t help your unique visitors numbers but it does help your overall views which is what most sites ad revenue is based on. If it was up to him he would get rid of that as well.
Personally, I have never got in to the page views race. We are not running it to make money, just enough to pay for the site with some to spare and we have been lucky to do that and then some.
F*** MB!!!
Wow, yeah i got the whole “banned for a week” crap… At least you got an email, i was as usual called out in front of everyone just because i posted what fonzie SAID TO ME, not me saying it, but i said what someone else called me and i got banned… i mean, i see the chatroom, and it’s very sad the conversations they’re having there… Guys who know nothing about the mets, baseball just talking junk.. But hey, at least they’re cleanupshoutbox free while we’re not there..
LOL I wonder if it is amazing for thsame reason Rauch has been good since June 23rd….
Because it hasn’t been used much?
Maniac, the other day i had a few people in there wondering what had happened to the shoutbox, saying it’s different, lame and boring with a bunch of idiots even talking fantasy football etc..
It’s a shame joe D allowed that jackass to be the guy who controls the behavior of others, when i got cleared called a name i won’t say in here the guy who called me that fonzie still roams around in the shoutbox, and just because i repeated what he said i got banned.. But it is what it is, at this point i can care less about the chatroom, i haven’t even attempt to be back since you nor bayonne post there.. the CORE still dominates the headlines!
Alex – Fonzie wasn’t even in the room when you got your suspension. You were in there cursing about me and saying things about Joe.
Your comments were being deleted and you kept going on and on about how *I* was the one deleting your comments – little did you know, Joe D was.
He deleted your account and said in the chatbox that you needed to “cool off” and could come back Sept 1.
That is what really happened the day you got suspended.
The shoutbox has not been a detriment to this website anymore – therefore it’s serving its purpose. Only the people suspended are the ones unhappy about it, and your comments above only further prove the suspension was warranted.
I guess beginning Sept 1st the shoutbox will be infected again. What Alex fails to state is who was the one who attacked who. He attacked me and I stooped to his level. Joe saw it as plain as day. You don’t see anybody getting cursed out in the shoutbox anymore, Hmmm, I wonder why.
Again, all i said was what he called me… and even after he called a you know what he kept gloating about it because he wasn’t suspended. don’t try to play the idk what’s going on card….
Again you’re a liar. I never gloated about anything and I was banned for the weekend in there. It’s amazing how you can lie when Joe can look at any comment from any date and see who says what.
LIAR LIAR (Screech)….LIAR LIAR (Screech)….LIAR LIAR (Screech)….LIAR LIAR (Screech)….LIAR LIAR (Screech)….LIAR LIAR (Screech)….
Someone change the record please this one skips like crazy!
First you can grow up an act your age and 2nd you can show me where and when I gloated in the shoutbox about anything. Unless you’re looking in the mirror while you’re acting like a 5th grader in which case I say have fun.
Whatever you said was probably deleted when you got banned so it’s pointless to ask for evidence that has been deleted or run out of the CUE….
My comment was in regards to any subject you seem to get involved in where at some point the word LIAR will be used by you which is quite a bit more insulting than Slurper is yet you claim little angel halos and innocence as far as insulting users is concerned.
As far as growing up…The last time I used the LIAR LIAR defense was sometime in 3rd grade!
I suggest you get a new script because running to call someone a liar (and there are at least 3 or 4 people you do it to now not just me or Alex) is why your getting insulted back!
Sorry but calling someone a liar when they are lying is not an insult. If you lie and are caught you shouldn’t be insulted when you’re called a liar. I have caught you in plenty of them and you have never once proven me a liar because I don’t come here making stuff up trying to look smarter than I really am. I tell the truth. I may not always be right but I won’t make something up to try and prove a point.
I have called 3 people a liar. You, which you make a habit of. Joey which I have already pointed out when he has and Alex for saying I gloated in the shoutbox about avoiding a ban that I didn’t avoid. Slurper on the other hand is a disgusting thing to say especially when it’s used towards a female poster. The word slurping on this site which was invented by Alex means you are slurping Sandy’s balls.
Btw. Way to blow up another thread. 134 comments dominated by Metsie.
Calling someone a Liar in EVERY case is insulting!
And your case everyone seem to be a liar you have called just about everyone here one at one point or another!
Here is my suggestion to you…
If you want to whine whenever you get insulted stop insulting people!
If you want to insult People expect to get insulted back!
And if you think you should be free to insult and be able to go crying to Joe when someone gives it back then you will learn a very hard lesson soon enough…Keep it Up!
Wait so calling someone a slurper if their opinion doesn’t match yours should not be an insult but calling a liar a liar while providing proof is always insulting?
Metsies world, Metsies world, party time, excellent.
Fonzie,
A liar is one who intentionally distorts things knowing what he or she is saying is not the truth. That is different than looking at things with a different viewpoint.
Everyone else who has disagreed on my take has said in one way or the other- politely or not so politely – that I am interpreting things differently and wrong in my conclusions but not that I lie.
Remember, you were the one who was told by the owner of the website – not privately but in public for everyone to read – to rise above the gutter or something to that extent.
First off TRS I didn;t call you a slurper today did I? Yet here you are complaining about it!
Calling someone a Liar when they have 10 links to prove what they said is not FACT!
It’s an outright insult!
You guys started this and I WILL finish it so keep right on going!
Now if you have a problem with me then I suggest you all write to JoeD and complain!l
And he will look at who started what and take appropriate action!
Roll the dice my friends Roll the Dice and take your chances!
But this innocent act isn’t going to work for you and everytime you attack expect return fire!
You don’t like that then stop firing the first shot!
Play with fire you can expect to get burned!
Calling someone a Liar in EVERY case is insulting!
See that’s a lie. I only call people a liar when they are lying. I do not call people a liar in every case. Maybe I say it quite often about you because you often lie like you are right now.
“And your case everyone seem to be a liar you have called just about everyone here one at one point or another!”
Nope, not everyone just 3. I’ve only seen 3 people lie here.
Here is my suggestion to you…
If you want to whine whenever you get insulted stop insulting people!
Here’s a suggestion! Practice what you preach. You have insulted 3 different people in this thread and none of them insulted you. I only retaliate to insults. I only have this problem with a select few from the Core because that select few insulted me first including Alex who called me an idiot and a piece of shit for saying it sure seems like you’re happy Wheeler got bombed cause you only bring him up when he pitches poorly. I got cursed out for that and I stooped to his level. Joe D saw the whole thing.
If you want to insult People expect to get insulted back!
I’ll only insult when I get insulted. The first debate I got into with you about last years WC race when I disagreed with you that the Mets were as good as the Cards you called me every name in the book and I never retaliated in that thread. From that point on I insult you when you insult me.
And if you think you should be free to insult and be able to go crying to Joe when someone gives it back then you will learn a very hard lesson soon enough…Keep it up!
Once again I’ll spell it out for you. I don’t throw the first punch. you insult me I’m giving it right back to you and I never go crying to Joe so if you don’t want me to call you a liar again then don’t say I go running to Joe. He saw with his own eyes who attacked who in the shoutbox and acted accordingly.
Why are you free to insult? Why are you free to badger people who don’t agree with you. why do you bring people up in your comments who are not even involved in your debate?
LIAR!
“A liar is one who intentionally distorts things knowing what he or she is saying is not the truth. That is different than looking at things with a different viewpoint.”
So Joey you’re saying that you unintentionally made a post that I said something I never said? Are you unintentionally trying to pass off to the viewers here that Sandy Alderson wasn’t the man making player personnel decisions for the A’s during his first 9 years when he was the GM and a semi retired special assistant and consultant and Broadcaster Bill Rigney was the guy who built those teams? Is trying to pass that off as fact unintentional?
Everyone else who has disagreed on my take has said in one way or the other- politely or not so politely – that I am interpreting things differently and wrong in my conclusions but not that I lie.
Well you did claim Des attacked you when he said your opinion was just your conjecture the same day I said you don’t back up your opinion as fact when in one of your 400 posts claiming Bill Rigney was the man who built the A’s teams and not the GM and VP of baseball ops when you decided to stay away for 2 weeks. You also said MNJ insults you but is coy about it. I don’t think you can honestly say either of us 3 insulted you. You took it as an insult.
Remember, you were the one who was told by the owner of the website – not privately but in public for everyone to read – to rise above the gutter or something to that extent.
Remember I was one of three who was told that because I abbreviated the F-word not because I insulted you. I mean how many times can you bring up Bill Rigney’s role with those A’s teams on a Mets blog especially what you are claiming isn’t true. Like I said you keep bringing it up to stir up another flame war. There would be no other reason to talk about the Oakland A’s from 30 years ago over and over and over.
You know why you got banned and you have nobody but yourself to blame. You were just unaware that Joe D happened to be watching when you were in your daily curse people out mode and instigation mode. You blame others for your actions. The comment you made was no different than the one I made and I was suspended for it. I personally apologized to Joe D for what I said and he saw who was the one who started that in the 1st place. You were skating on thin ice for months and finally got what you deserved. The only one I’m sorry to see go is Maniac who despite disliking the job the GM is doing is at least objective and has a lot of insight. So cut the crap with the victim card and stop mentioning my name. You should be grateful that Joe even lets you comment in here.
Alex, I could think of all kinds of flattering names for you as well, but why would I?
TRS, again, you can go ahead and call me anything you want, 1st of all i won’t get mad, 2nd of all, no matter how offensive it is you will not get banned from the site.. If fonzie called me something despicable and horrible and he’s still here, i’m sure you’d be fine..
Alex, you are still missing the point. WHY would I? I have no desire to use middle school rhetoric. As a teacher, I hear that enough. I come here and other blogs for an attempt at higher level conversation. Until someone says I am ridding the Wilpons, while sitting in Wright’s lap and slurping on Alderson. I seriously don’t get the need.
Well, you can always go to YOUR BLOG to avoid get offended. again, not sure why you get offended when someone says moneyballer, or sabermetrician, or slurper… if you aren’t. you aren’t…
Well I am neither a moneyballer or sabermetrician (I wish I did understand stats that well maybe I wouldn’t be a teacher, lol), the slurper thing? Seems middle school for sure. Again, it’s not about being offended or not. I just don’t see the need.
OOOOOOOO I get to play the Question game!
Do you think Moneyball worked and was effective? Yes or No?
Do you believe in metrics such as WAR and wOBA or place a higher importance on OBP than BA? Yes or No?
Careful cause the answers you give will determine if you are a Moneryballer or SaberRattler!
“the slurper thing? Seems middle school for sure.”
No more middle school than calling someone a “Hater” or “NOT A FAN” which has happened to anyone who questions any Move Sandy has made!
Go back where I have called someone a hater, lol.
The answer to your questions.
Do I think moneyball was effective? It depends on what the goal was. Over a long period of time, no I do not think moneyball would be effective. Over a short period of time, to attempt to keep a team competitive when there is no money? Maybe. However, with every team using deep statistical information is it even possible anymore?
Do I think that WAR should have more impact than OBP and BA? Well considering you know my view on OBP, I wouldn’t think you would ask that question. I am not a big fan of any stat that I can’t pull out a calculator and do for myself. That is why I am also not big on most defensive metrics.
Really you became a SS teacher with reading skills like yours?
Ok item 1 – Go back where I called you a slurper…
Item 2 I gave you yes or no questions and not a single yes or no was given just qualifications for where it might not work and MIGHT work….Afraid to give a straight answer are you? You seem to think there is some situation it will work but your not a believer in Moneyball? Funny how you also seem to suggest OUR situation is the one in which it’s a good idea! But NOOOOOO Your not approving of using what you think would work in our situation not at all!
Item 3 I didn’t ask you if you thought War was better than OBP!
I asked you if you like War AND if you think OBP is better to use than BA!
Again the guy who is fond of asking meaningless questions avoids giving answers when those questions are posed to him!
I think we pretty much are done here! Not much else to say and certainly no point in asking YOU any questiions that more often nthan not get answered with other dumb questions!
But you will reply anyway, gotta get that extra linkage in for the Spidert!
Sure did.
Also, I answered your question you just don’t like the answers. Over a long period of time no I do not believe Moneyball can work. And no I do not value saber stats over traditional ones which includes OBP and BA and ERA and WHIP and other traditional compilation stats. Only in your world is OBP considered a Saber stat.
You gave two answers to the ame question! Thats not answering!
YES OR NO do you think Moneball can be affective?
YES OR NO!
And you agin avoid the question so I will seperate them for you to allow your limited thinking capacity to keep them seperate!
1 – Do you believe WAR is a good metric?
2 – Do you believe OBP is better than BA for judging Hitters?
Two questions now get around them by avoiding them again and it will be proof you believe in Moneybal and Sabers but are too embarassed to admit it!
1) No, it can be useful in comparing one player’s overall impact to another but again if I can’t use a calculator to figure determine the stat I don’t like the stat.
2) I see no reason to rank one stat above another because for each player one stat doesn’t tell the entire story. In terms of hitting? BA is more important. In terms of offensive production OBP is a better indicator in my opinion. But honestly they go so hand in hand I don’t see the purpose in ranking them.
LOL
TRS – No I don’t believe in what can be usefull! Do you hear yourself?
Is getting a walk or being hit by a pitch considered offensive production?
Isn’t it more defensive gift since the batter can’t really earn it just accept it?
If it’s not OFFENSE and the only difference between BA and OBP is non offensive acts aside from hitting isn’t hitting much more important than OBP in both Hitting AND Offensive production?
Would you like some Maple syrup to go with your Waffling?
So I am not allowed to have a different opinion than you? LOL.
I do not like the stat of WAR because I do not understand or have any real idea how it’s calculated. However there are not many stats that try to compile both offense and defense to compare players.
And why on earth would I want to start this OBP debate with you again?
Where did I say your not allowed to have a different opinion….
All I pointed out is if you think War is useful (whether you use it or not is irrelevent) then you believe in sabermetrics and being a believer of them makes you a saber rattler no different as those who believe in Christ are called Christians!
If you believe OBP which is Offense plus Defensive gifts is better than the metric that is purely offense then your you also a SaberRattler….
You are what you believe!
If you think Sabers are true then you believe in Sabers!
Since OBP is a better metric than BA as a central belief in Sabers your are a Saber!
For those who are happy the A’s have been doing well as a team and trying to use it as an “I told you money ball works” and are already slurping beane, Irony is these A’s are anti-Moneyball club. .306 on-base % is 3rd-lowest in AL. And they’re tied for 3rd in AL in stolen bases.
So, anything moneyball represents, you know, plate discipline and speed being overrated, yeah… These Oakland A’s have taken a different approach…
Ohh, by the way, they are 2nd in ERA and their bullpen has been awesome to say the least with an 2.82 ERA
“anyone who read the book knows OBP was not the key to moneyball just the metric that was undervalued at the time!”
Right and that means your assertion that Sandy isn’t playing moneyball because he has not valued OBP as the undervalued metric means nothing because he might be using some other metric you haven’t identified and coming up with the wrong answer!
YOUR the one tying OBP being the indicator of our not using Moneyball not us!
As it looks to me the undervalued stat is anyone who makes less than 3 mil!
well, rauch’s crap period coincided with when he had to mis time (and obviously played through) his knee problems (I know he had them drained).
But, the team was still in the hunt at the point (end June) that he had really started coming on.
so you can’t blame him for the July swoon.
Truth is Stick I bet there are far BETTER justifications for His bad numbers at that time than even a knee and far better defenses of what happened then than just dismissing them as some anomoly!
It would be fine to dismiss if anyone bothered to come up with a semi decent excuse…
If it was injury well thats a poor excuse, if your hurt he shouldn’t have been in there…
The MORE likely reason for his losses is because of the suck of Ramirez who would allow leads to be lost and put men on base that Rauch would get called in for with a tie or only a run of buffer to work with and give up those inherited runners giving him the loss that should have clearly gone to someone else.
I haven’t looked at each situation or tried to analyze exactly what happened and what situations he was in but I would bet that is a better and more probable reason for that stretch of time than his knee and his ability! It seems as soon as we stopped putting Ramirez in there the rest of the pen started having better numbers!
And Rauch has been used more sparingly than he was mostly like because of that!
Sometimes the person who collected the stats isn’t the reason those stats were collected in the first place.
Money Ball is more a perception than a reality. It wasn’t what saved Billy Beane in 2002 as it was his outstanding pitching staff and many other key players still under contract to him. The players he did obtain did not have to be on par with Giambi and Damon as they just had to be adequate.
Nor was it something that Tampa Bay pulled off due to economics as it was their young kids coming together all at once – as we see occurring with Oakland this season.
And it certainly did not work for Sandy as he was gradually lowering the Oakland payroll after the 1990 season or after 1995 when he had the edict to cut payroll from his new owners.
Money ball is just being prudent in how one’s money is spent. Not a new concept though indeed not practiced by the Mets in decades. But to think that this combined with computer statistics allows one to put together a good team based on undervalued talent reminds me of Ed Wood when he thought he could put together great movies on similar shoe string budgets. For every R.A. Dickey who is signed as a no-risk financial gamble that pays off, there are probably at least ten or fifteen that don’t.
Those players that Sandy obtained his first season were certainly not examples of undervalued talent but rather examples of why such players usually remain low on the economic totem pole. Even Sandy admitted if one is going to get inexpensive players they are only going to get a fifty percent return in production for their investments.
Moneyball – A movie based on a book based on a 2002 team that never won a World Series that largely ignored the real reason they had any success; Mark Mulder, Barry Zito, and Tim Hudson. The AL MVP in 2002 was the now confessed steroids user Miguel Tejada and Zito won the Cy Young. Moneyball my freaking ass!
Hi Maniac,
And I don’t know how that myth about Oakland started exactly because of those reasons you, I and others (including Tony LaRussa) so often point out. It is true that one outspending most others has often backfired in one’s face but that doesn’t lend any more credibility to the other extreme as Sandy admitted last week.
118 comments and counting and you will be hard pressed to find 20 pertaining to the topic at hand.
MNJ — Isn’t it boring and repetitive? When the object is winning an argument instead of providing a point of view, 100+ comments are to be expected I imagine.
Or when some posters are merely here to badger those who were on topic with off topic Questions and attempts to increase thier Google Rank by adding links to thier site onto this one with every post in every page here.
You mean like yourself?
Yeah which website am I Promoting Kay?
And who was it that took a conversation about Rauch into something about wins in July?
Yeah Like me Kay JUST like me!
Cause I post under tha handle TRS as well!
Play the innocent card about badgering someone that was born yesterday. Only one you’re kidding is yourself, all day long all you do is badger people.
And all you have done all day here is Badger someone…I notice no participation on anything baseball from you today!
So you know what Kay? GFY!
GFY? After your liar liar pants on fire rant, very impressed, cool. What a tough guy.
Hey Kay you started this fight with me now didn’t you?
I find it funny how you and Fonzie love to dish it out to users and then cry foul when they don’t go crying to joe via email about it and just give it back to you!
I’m not a tough guy!
I’m just a mirror!
Don’t like when people give you crap don’t give them a reason to by giving them crap first!
When you start acting like a lady I might consider treating you as such!
But for the most part you play the role of Net Atagonist and if your good to do that I’m good at treating you that way!
Game is up to you my dear!
What exactly did Kay say to warrant you telling her to GF herself? And what exactly do I dish out the truth? You blame everybody but yourself for your own actions. It’s you that’s in the flame wars with different people every day and then you blame the other party for starting it. You just don’t know when to walk away. You have to have the last word. No one is obligated to agree with your views.
I Will say he is great at getting people sucked in. Today he starts it up with me and then says that the reason I responded to his crap was due to my Google rank, seriously? You can’t make up this stuff.
No you and Kay blame everyone but yourself!
TRS too!
You guys start crap with people and then whine about when they give it back to you!
It’s a tired script!
You call someone a liar and when they respond you didn’t insult them they insult you?
Kay attacks me and I respond and I’m the one playing innocent and wrong for attacking back?
You don’t even know what GFY means!
You think you do but you have no clue!
I love how you falsely use the word attack. When you continue to write hypocritical comments, and make things up as you go, people respond, that is not an attack, it’s you being called out for incredulous comments.
You are right, in part, I really don’t need to respond to the nonsense you post because 99% of the posters here, can see right through your crap and know you for what you are, I don’t need to point it out the obvious.
Metsie, show me one post today where I attacked or insulted you? Yet because of our difference in opinion you called me a but-twipe. LOL, who does that? Who even uses that language anymore? What are you going to call me a douch-e next?
TRS, you’re already past that stage LOL…
Oh well, I guess as an optimist I take that to mean I am clean and smell wonderful.
I’m just going to Quote JoeD here and be done with you in this thread…
Joe D August 28, 2012 at 9:59 am .
The Alderson defense has become so acrimonious that it’s like a fight to the death.
Note he didn’t Say Alderson Criticizers in that sentence!
I suggest if you folks have problems and are convinced your little angels who have NEVER done any wrong that you Write to JoeD and get me banned!
Good Luck!
Very classy Metsie, very classy.
Classy would be in the eye of the Beholder now wouldn’t it?
Metsie — As it is said, pornography may be difficult to define, but you know it when you see it. Same goes for being “classy” or not. It ain’t classy and in the eyes of the beholder when most everybody agrees it wasn’t.
I think it’s not so much getting off topic in that so often the topic itself leads to more and more inter-related side bar discussions.
For example, the discussion sprang into a debate about Jon’s role in the early season and developed into whether his salary having been a worthwhile investment and then others added to it including how much his signing could have been due to the relationship between money ball and Sandy Alderson and saber metrics – which of course opened up a can of worms – and whether he should be re-signed for next season depending upon the direction the club is heading, etc.
Guess a safer question would be whether or not the tattoos help in distracting the hitters.
Who will be the first player to charge the mound against Rauch and what will be the result?