25
2012
If You (Re)Build It, Will We Come?
An article by Tie Dyed
As the Mets play out their fiftieth season they are paying tribute to their 1962 counterparts. That THUD you heard was our beloved Amazins’ falling into last place. Fifty years later…and some things remain the same.
It’s been half a century since National League baseball returned to New York and it got me thinking. At the time, the Mets along with the Houston Colt 45’s, brought the total number of teams in existence to 24. Baseball has expanded several times since then and I wondered how we matched up against the more recent additions to our National Pastime. The results were a bit disheartening.
Granted, the Baseball landscape was far different in 1962 than it was in 93 when the Rockies and Marlins came into existence. Same can be said for the (Devil) Rays and D-backs in 98. Nowadays it’s much easier to build a winner than it was back in 62. Arizona proved that by winning 100 games in just their second season.
However, the Mets had a 30+ year head start on these 4 other clubs. Colorado, Florida, Tampa Bay and Arizona started with NOTHING! However, they have achieved more success in their short existence than our Mets have over that same time.
Interesting facts: Of these 5 franchises, the Mets have the 2nd best record. Only Arizona at 499 has a higher winning percentage. Through Friday’s loss to Houston, the Mets have compiled a record of 1555-1581 since Opening Day 1993, (.496.) The list is rounded out with the Marlins (.476), the Rockies (474) and the Rays (453.)
One may expect that the Mets should far surpass these other teams in total wins. After all, they started with nada. However, I will admit I was surprised that we even matched up this well in the win-loss column.
Here’s the disturbing part. Although the other 4 teams started with zilch and had to build from the bottom up and rely on discarded scraps, they have all surpassed the Mets in post-season success. Downright frustrating.
Now sure, first glance at this matrix shows we are holding our own. Respectable. Not great, not terrible. However, keep in mind that we’re an existing team whereas these other clubs had to build a winner from the ground up. Yes, we’ve had an adequate showing since 1993. But these other organizations have shown what it takes to BUILD a winner.
One must also keep in mind that while we stack up moderately against these other newcomers, we are the only ‘Big market Club.’ Our payroll has far exceeded that of the organizations listed. The only team with fewer trips to the post-season is the Marlins with 2. However, at least they have 2 championships to show for it. The same numbers of World Series’ we’ve won in half a century, the Marlins matched in 11 years.
And what will this chart look like in 5 years? The Rays and D-backs are young, hungry and will only get better. The Marlins are underachieving. And the Mets? Well, yea, we’re rebuilding.
Sadly I think our post-season appearance total of 3 will not change in the next few years. David Wright will be gone, Dickey most likely will also. Johan has broken down more than a 1972 Ford Pinto.
What can we do? Nothing really. We can vent, complain, throw things at the TV and go through the motions of a 162-game season. We’ll sit back while the Mets brain trust (and I use the word ‘brain’ lightly) keeps selling us the same ol’ line. And we can watch teams like Arizona and Tampa remain competitive while we….ahem…”rebuild.”
About the Author: Rob Silverman
It was 1973 when my dad introduced this 7 year old kid to Baseball and the Mets. It's been a love and passion that has lasted for 40 years, much longer than my first marriage. Since I was little, there've been 2 things I've always dreamed of: 1) Being a successful author and 2) playing right field for the Mets after Rusty Staub retired. Although 4 decades have passed and based on the current condition of the Mets, I have not given up on either dream
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 30 | .583 | - |
| Phillies | 35 | 37 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Nationals | 34 | 36 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Mets | 27 | 40 | .403 | 12.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 48 | .314 | 19.0 |
Last updated: 06/19/2013
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the whole thing is absolutely so frustrating……and pathetic.
its a very sad time
Hard to say you’re rebuilding from within when you only sign 20 of 42 draft picks, have $1 million in draft money left over and let $60,000 come between you and signing your 2nd round pick. So what exactly are they supposed to be building here? The NL East version of the Astros? Or the Pirates of the past 15 years (before this year of course)? There appears to be no concrete plan or vision for this team except to slash payroll and save the Wilpon(zie)s $$$$. If you build it, yes we (the fans) may come. But if you re-build, maybe not so much. And that, my friends, does not really save the owners money because if those season ticket sales diminish and those turnstiles stop turning, you ain’t gonna make money. Period. But, then, when did the Wilpons care about the fans anyway, right?
I think you need to check your count on post season
The Mets have had 7 Post season appearances, 4 WS Appearances.
Really that chart is all wrong Rob.
WldCards = 2 (1999,2000)
Div Titles = 5 (69, 73, 86, 88, 06)
Pennants = 4 (69, 73, 86, 00) Note Championships and Pennants are the same thing no?)
Championships (if by that you mean WS wins) = 2 (69, 86)
I’m guessing you limited this chart to just since 1993 which I will point out is not really fair considering the Mets in 93 were just on the downward side of the Win cycle at that time While many of the others were just starting, getting top draft picks and had free Agency to help them that was not available to the Mets when they first started which helped these teams get there quicker than what we had when we started.
It is actually much easier for an expansion team to succeed quickly these days and while they have had that success they have yet to go through one of those long cycles of competitiveness followed by an even longer period of decline.
The strength of your division is also a big factor here. Us and the Marlins play in the NL East and vs Teams like the Braves and Phillies.
The Marlins two wins have as much to do with the fact they had thier talent selloff while the talent value was at it’s highest and in the same year they achieved thier WS win (at thier peak) which meant they pumped a ton of talent into a MiL system that already was built pretty well and had produced players that got them to the WS and with all those top prospects they were able to repeat so quickly.
Arizona’s first 100 game season in thier second year had a lot to do with all the great Veterans they had on that team and one awesome pitcher named Randy Johnson.
Thier starting rotation didn’t have a guy younger than 27. Of their starting regulars only their 1B Travis Lee was under 28. A testament to how well they picked in the expansion draft plus free agency.
As far as Houston’s success We ended thier first rn of being a playoff type team in 86 and it wasn’t until they were moved into the weak NL Central that they started to get back into the post season. They too are on the downward side (perhaps the bottom of it) of a WS appearing franchise and how quick they come back will be interesting to see, should be easier as they are moving to the AL and DH land!
Look at someone like the Nationals (formerly Montreal) who were expansion the year we won our first WS and how have they done in the post season?
Winning and team building is a cyclical thing because you can’t possibly draft, develop, and promote enough kids to fill effectively every hole you will develop over the course of a winning up cycle. Certainly not enough to replace the guys who got you wins once they can no longer get it done. The teams that have maintained long term success used trades and free agency to keep that ball rolling and it took them a long time worth of losing to get to that point.
We are on the downward side of a short win cycle.
We were on a downward side of a big win cycle right around the time your chart starts.
None of the other teams on your chart were in that position.
And yes in this day and age of Free Agency it is much easier for an expansion team to get to the winning muchquicker than what we had when we were forced to draft and sign guys like Seaver to get the players we needed.
It’s a different day and age, and starting from scratch is a lot easier to build up than from a team who recently won, spent their load of assets to get there and now have to start off even further behind than some newly created expansion team who was comprised of good players that could not be protected and top draft picks in the first couple of drafts.
Metsie, the chart is illustrating 1993 until now. It’s intended to show how we fared since the last MLB expansion.
I got that from the totals (It didn’t say 1993 until AFTER the chart was presented which is why I got confused)
My point is that cherry picking times to start is a bad habit when you start your comparison at a time where the other team was just recently at the top and is still on it’s way down (before it can rebuild) compared to a team that is down and has no way to go but up PLUS gets the advantage of starting off at the top of the draft despite the fact thier expansion draft may not have left them as the worst team in baseball as a starting point!
It’s no different than a race where one guy starts the race after having blown his load racing to the top of the previous hill and expecting him to be able to beat a guy who started at the bottom of that hill and expecting the first guy to beat him up the next hill!
They are not starting from the same point!
In 1993 we were not trying to rebuild we were trying to maintain!
So we had to get to the point where a rebuild was the plan before we could race those who started the race rebuilding!
And it’s rediculous to think that we were going to win as many as those teams did!
We did get to as many postseasons as most of them!
Metsie–thanks for your opinion. I just tend to disagree…but it’s all good.
The Marlins, for example, play in our division and with 2 championships they achieved in their short existence, they have matched our total in 50. And think about it: The Marlins won in 97–then went ahead and destroyed that team. But within 6 years–just 6 years they were Champions again.
Yes, the Barves have been a powerhouse in our division for 20 years but the Phillies have only been a force for about 5 years.
We play in a tough division, granted. But what about the Rays who have to face the Yankees and Red Sox all summer?
As for the Rockies, they probably have the toughest team. They are a team built for power–yet the play in a division with 3 stadiums (LA, SF and San Diego) that are all pitchers parks.
Yes, it definitely is easier to build a winner nowadays. But yet our Mets–big market and big payroll–have not been able to to the same degree as these other clubs I mentioned.
Just a difference of opinion. It’s all good.
Rob just pointing out thspecial case of the Marlins.
Starting from expansion it took them 5 years to build a Winner (us only 7) but they had the advantage of Free Agency to help build that team, So no miracles there!
They had the advantage of 3 years of high draft picks, plus the original top draft picks thier first year in existence and the expansion draft as a starting off point.
They then sold off anyone who was good the year they won the WS and those players were at thier most valuable and stockpiling kids into a MiL system that was already chock full of highly touted draftees from the previous 5 years!
And those kids 6 years and a lot of losing later won another WS!
So they never sustained success to drain the Minors in thier two runs the way we have roughly three times in our existence, the last coming right around 1989 just three short years before you started tallying wins.
Here is something more that goes with your post Rob. The Mets over the last 21 years (1991-2011) for those 3 playoff appearances have spent the 3rd most in payroll. $1,692,271,335. More than any other team in MLB during that span except for the Yankees ($2,539,418.747) and Red Sox ($1,875,835,232).
The Mets for all their spending got no more return in their investment than many other teams who spent less. The message being the Mets have shown they did 1 thing well, spend money but they just didn’t spend it wisely.
http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0ApxE2V-jZhJHdER6WThGaDk4dkZnYW9YNm9xaGRIekE&single=true&gid=16&output=html
Or it means that to get players to play ithe highest taxed state in the nation theyhave to pay a little more to offset those taxes than a low tax state like Arizona dna Florida!
Thanks Metsie. I was searching around last night for a stat like you found.
I mean Thanks ‘North Jersey’
No prob Rob. I did that chart back in November because of the myth that simply spending more means more wins. Far far from it. Spending wisely not more. If a 21 year window does not show that when it comes to the Mets nothing will.
TC is not looking so good: It doesn’t matter that very little is his fault. We know it is ownership’s fault. Wally is looking real good. Use him or loose him. During the off season it is MORE important to make WB manager than extend DW.
Sure, Wally is looking good unless you look at some YouTube videos. The man is occasionally nuts. Reminds me of Leo Durocher. Wally is one of many fine baseball minds available. My hunch is Wally never manages the Mets.
Technical Foul
The state sales tax rate in New York is only 4.00%
The state sales tax rate in the California is 7.25%
Combined taxes in major American cities:
Birmingham Alabama 10.0%
Montgomery Alabama 10.0%
Chicago Illinois 9.5%
Glendale Arizona 9.5%
Seattle Washington 9.5%
Phoenix Arizona 9.3%
Memphis Tennessee 9.25%
Nashville Tennessee 9.25%
Tucson Arizona 9.1%
Mesa Arizona 9.05%
Baton Rouge Arizona 9.0%
New Orleans 9.0%
Scottsdale Arizona 8.95%
New York, NY 8.875%
Ahhh I see a little bit of David copperfield going on….Don’t look here look there!
What are the income tax rates?
What are the cost of living standards for those locations?
A 1 room apt can go for as high a 2K in NYC…What does one go for in Atlanta Miami and Alabama?
You don’t have to live in NY just because you play in NY.
But you have to pay NY taxes if you earn your money in NY no matter where you live!
Unemployed folks like you would not know that!
This is why you’re a fkn ass whole. Make your point without resorting to childish insults. You have no idea what my employment backround is. A lot of people would love to be in my position. And Maniac is the one that gets a ban. Go figure.
LOL Guess I hit a nerve…I hear people are getting banned for bad language these days…
Better be careful!
Hi Metsie — I was responding to what you wrote, not what you intended. NYC is a tough environment for keeping what is earned, no doubt.
I think the comparison was on total income taxes, not sales taxes. Please correct me on this if I am in error.
Correct Steve!
Total taxes and cost of living which in many ways is due to all the extra taxes on businesses and commercial spaces causing higher prices and yes even the mentioned Sales taxes.
It is way more expensive to live in NY or NYC than most places in this country.
In fact the only place I think it’s more expensive is hawaii!
And that has as much to do with having to import most of the good your can buy and the fact real estate costs a fortune.
This is really pathetic. This is a clear cut example of a piss poor job devloping your own players. Spending money in the wrong areas. Paying players for what they did for other teams, instead of spending money drafting and developing their own.
If the Wilpons had any sense, they would sell the team to a more savvy and more competent owner not afraid to take bold steps and spend money. Red Sox management is good model. Recognizing they have lost their way this year, they make a blockbuster deal with the Dodgers that gives their fans something to hang onto. In contrast, Mets fans are insulted with status quo bush league steps. Pathetic.