17
2012
He Speaks…
An article by 
Caught this quote from Sandy Alderson on MetsBlog…
“I think we have a much better sense now of who our players are, who we think are going to develop into those championship-caliber players, who may not, and are in a position to act on that. The last couple of years, we’ve done a lot of experimenting. Some things have worked out. Some haven’t. But I feel a lot more confident about where we’re going than I did a couple of years ago.”
Actions speak louder than words. I’m sick and tired of just words. Especially when those words never come to pass.
This is a results oriented job and a results oriented business.
Don’t kid yourselves, baseball is 99% business and 1% pastime.
I don’t really care if I’m on a one man crusade here…
I’m With #5 – Baby steps don’t cut it…
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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I have a serious question: given that we know that the Wilpons’ financial situation has prevented Sandy from adding payroll, and in fact required him to significantly decrease it, what would you have him do to improve the team over the past two years? I won’t sit here and defend his every move. Not trading Reyes – assuming that Sandy knew he didn’t have a realistic chance to retain him – was a mistake. His attempts to revamp the bullpen have failed, to say the least. And I take issue with some of his moves on the margins (DFAing Rottino when he was a capable RH bat and possible second C, keeping Turner over Quintanilla). But overall, he inherited the untradeable contracts of Bay and Santana, which the team is now waiting out (and Castillo and Perez last year). He managed to turn Beltran, who would have walked, into one of the best pitching prospects in the game, which was a tremendous achievement, and he got us out of K-Rod’s vesting option.
Basically, I agree that Sandy has not been perfect, but it’s not clear to me what exactly he should have been doing. He can’t add payroll, or at least not substantially enough where it would make a difference (one bat or one arm was not going to turn this into a playoff team, and to the extent that the first half fooled us into thinking so, we were wrong). This has always been about waiting until 2014 when Bay and Santana (who, again, are untradeable) come off th books and then we can finally make meaningful free agent signings. But it’s not like Sandy can make Mike Trout materialize out of thin air or something.
Sandy is no different than every other GM in that you can debate endlessly moves made (or not made), especially the smaller/filler pieces. Some work, some don’t, but at least short-term/lower $ deals don’t serve as an anchor. Botching the huge LT deals, those will bite you in the arse if you don’t have a huge budget to eat mistakes.
Reyes? I still believe that pulling up lame before the ASG, just as the trade market was heating up, eliminated that trade option. or at least, the idea of getting anything worthwhile back. Only the FO really knows (and they aren’t saying!) if they were looking/willing to trade Reyes for the right return. But it is hard to trade a speed guy on the DL with an again bad hammy, and even when he came back late in July he was obviously limited.
I basically agree with what you said, including that the Reyes thing wasn’t as clear-cut as I made it out to be given the timing of his injury. What’s preventing the team from contending is the complete absence of any ability to increase payroll (which is due to a combination of the ownership situation and Minaya’s legacy), as well as the absence of anything resembling major league-ready OF prospects (which, again, is mostly on Minaya).
Wow Jesse, a voice of reason. We don’t get too many around here nowadays.
Hi Jesse,
The solution would not be Sandy Alderson but for the Wilpons to sell the team if they are unable to operate it other than in this fashion. As many of us have stated, had the finances been in better shape, Sandy most likely would still be working in Bud Selig’s office. As it is, he might just be delaying the inevitable change of ownership.
Joey, I agree 100% that I’d like to see the Wilpons sell the team. But the original post seemed to be aimed at Sandy, so I was trying to defend him. The implication is that Sandy can/should be doing something differently, and I think that overall he’s doing what he can in light of the resources he’s been provided by ownership. Believe me, I’d love for new ownership to take over two of my teams (I’m also a Knicks fan).
Hi Jesse,
While the responsibility for this mess falls entirely on the Wilpon’s shoulders, I do share the thought with many others that Sandy Alderson is not a baseball person to begin with when it comes to matters of club personnel, draft picks, etc. That is what I meant by if the financial circumstances had been different he wouldn’t be here. He is an expert in matters of legal and finance and his main concern is keeping the franchise afloat for the Wilpons financially until they are able to re-invest more money into the organization and start concentrating on building up the team on the field once more. Until that time, he is having his people concentrate more on filling spots with those the like of Francisco, Rameriz, Torres, Young, Carasco etc. and young players in hope that more than the statistical nine percent make it to the majors wearing the orange and blue.
What you said.
Too bad it isn’t going to happen.
I think it’s quotes like this that are increasing the level of “hate” being spewed on Mr. Alderson. This is why people think he’s smug and belittling our intelligence. We understand he’s paid to know more than we do, and most of us even understand that he does. But…we know who our players are and who’s going to develop into championship players?? Please, our best player might leave after a year, we have league average players who could develop into a maybe more, and we have prospects we’re hoping become championship players. It’s still very much a crapshoot Mr. Alderson. And…that’s a lot of hoping for the best. Inferring the experimenting is over (Justin Turner to the outfield anyone, Lucas to LF or maybe 1B or maybe back to RF, Mejia as a SP or RP, etc.). But nope, we’re not still experimenting. Right.
We need a miracle to no have a losing season this year; there’s a good chance we finish with less than last year’s total wins. We have an even more flawed roster of players, and our best sell is wait until we have money to spend. We know Bay and Santana will be off the books by 2014, but good luck finding gold in free agency when more teams are locking up young talent.
People say we’re on the right track are deluding themselves. I’ll believe it when we actually post a winning record by 2015.
I agree with you that Sandy can sometimes come off as a bit smug, but I’d prefer a smart guy who might annoy a few people to a guy who “says the right things” and plays to the fans. I mean, sure, the team is experimenting (Mejia’s a good example. Turner to the OF I think is classic Terry Collins crazy talk like Bay in CF), but I think some questions have been answered. Is Tejada a cornerstone of the future? Absolutely. Is Duda a legitimate OF option? Almost definitely not. Is Jon Niese a solid, if not spectacular, big league pitcher? Yes. Does the team have a lot of good young pitchers in the pipeline, who will likely be the backbone of any future contending teams? Yes.
Yeah, it sucks to lose, especially after a good first half, and mistakes were made, but I think some progress has been made too.
You left out a couple of key words when you were paraphrasing Sandy. Your quote “…we know who our players are and who’s going to develop into championship players??” was actually “… we have a much better sense now of who our players are, who we THINK are going to develop into those championship-caliber players.” The difference? Yours is stated as an absolute, while Sandy’s quote clearly states that he merely has a more educated opinion than he did when he took the job.
As far as his being done experimenting, he doesn’t say anything that even implies that point. He just says he has done a lot of experimenting over his tenure, some of it hasn’t worked, and he has learned from it.
I don’t approve of a lot of things that have been done by the FO in the past few years, but the fact that the same type of bad decisions were made no matter who the GM or field management were shows who is causing these bad decisions. Why, it’s no other than our old friends the Tampon family! And, of course, we have to thank Uncle Bud for keeping them in charge! Hopefully when Buddy retires, the new commish will chase these dilettantes out of baseball and someone with deep pockets will buy the team. If the new guy is Sandy, you can bet he will, after working for them and their two-faced style of ownership.
Sorry for turning this into a rant, but When I start thinking about Fred, Jeff, and Saul (our version of the Three Stooges), I see red!
I am running out of patience. There has to be real improvement next year. There was no improvement at all this season. Sandy is a smug bullshitter, which is fine if he can actually make positive change. Right now I am not seeing enough positive change.
It’s time for S. Alderson to “step up” this off season. Hopefully he can get some young players that will help us start to win. If he stands pat, then you know it’s the owners who won’t let him spend. I don’t neccesarily mean add 25 million in payroll, but even spend wisely. Upgrade at Catcher and outfield. We need a speed guy and big bopper in outfield and maybe one of the Toronto catchers.
1b-Ike Davis, 2nd- Valdespin or Murphy ss- Tejada 3b- Wright Lf- Valdespin / Bay(would be shocked to see him gone) Cf–Borjous or Bonafacio Rf– Upton C- Arencibia
I like the idea of Borjous. And the Angels have sabotaged his value by never playing him. They wont get near the return they would have last winter.
Last winter I asked one the Angels newspaper writers about him and he said Bourjous was untouchable. That was before the T and T boys, Trumbo and Trout.
They can’t expect half of what they would have hauled in last winter. Put it this way….who in their right mind would offer a lot?
It’s not Sandy with the purse strings – it’s the ownership group.
Forgot – I also like Borjous. Cheap, and decent offense. Another year before before arb, too. I just don’t think we’re going to see anything until next offseason, when Bay and Santana are off the books. Then again, the way attendance is dropping, losing their contracts may just bring us to the break-even point. Better think about who to trade, too.
His defense is way beyond decent – its outstanding.
Great quote. I love it. This flies completely in the face of the “Thanks, Omar” group who credited him for leaving a deep farm system which included solid MLB ready pieces and were on record including Ike, Duda, Kirk and Thole in that group, then complain to high heaven out of the other side of their mouths that the catching and outfield stinks and Sandy did nothing in the offseason to replace the guys they lauded Omar for acquiring.
It’ll probably hurt those people to read this and realize that Sandy also thought, much like they did, that he had the makings of a solid MLB team, and now realizes he doesn’t, much like they do.
Deep farm system my ass. The MLB squad has a bunch of one dimensional players and the farm doesn’t have any quality position players above A ball except for maybe Flores and even he doesn’t have a position. The arms are what make our farm system halfway decent. A lt of them were brought in last year too.
You know that and I know that and a large majority of people know that, but the “real” baseball fans thought Omar left a great foundation for the future. Not quite sure that they were watching.
I think saying “great” is exaggerating. I don’t think anybody ever said “great”. I know in my fan post in ST, I said he left over a solid group of young players and I still think that’s accurate.(And both of you praised me for that post by the way).
You mention the players that took steps back, but you didn’t mention players that have taken steps forward like Tejada, Niese, Murphy and Harvey. And with the players who have taken steps back the jury is still out on them – Who’s to say Ike won’t come back like Heyward did this year? And who’s to say Duda won’t rebound and turn into the hitter we’d ALL thought he would be? Or who’s to say Kirk won’t cut down on his K’s next year, and hit like he did at the start of the season?
The jury is still out on those guys. And everyone also knew that not every young player was going to turn out as expected. So I don’t see how Sandy’s comment “flies in the face” of anything.
And because some people say we need to pick up some veterans to compliment the team does not contradict my point or others point about Omar. You can’t win with just kids from the minors – It’s almost impossible. I don’t care if you do an AMAZING job developing talent, your still going to have to sign or trade for guys to fill in the gaps. Your never going to have all homegrown studs at every postion.
All those kids have as good a shot as any to rebound and become superstars for all we know. But I referred specifically to this past offseason and then the period right after the break, when the same people who lauded these kids one day and blasted Sandy for not replacing them the next. And Sandy did pick up veterans to complement those guys. Hairston and Torres are very solid choices for backup OFs but they get exposed when they are forced into an every day role, just like every backup in history. That’s why they’re backups. Hefner’s ERA as a starter after that terrible SD start (which was only the first of his career) has been 3.94. Chris Young is another solid back of the rotation guy. Quintanilla played very well in his role as backup IF. Byrdak was very good against lefties. Rauch has been very good for the most part. Ramirez will probably end the season with a sub-4 ERA.
Most of the complimentary players acquired have done well in their complementary roles, but were exposed when they were forced into starting roles because of the complete inability of the perceived starters to maintain any sort of consistent, ML level production. Let me make this clear, this is not Omar’s fault or any sort of slam piece on Omar. I think you know I give Omar all the credit in the world for his eye for talent. This piece is strictly a rebuttal to those who thought Omar did a great job, but still blamed Sandy for not replacing that “great” job (and yes, people used “great”, several times from several people….it’s there if you want to look it up).
So, you still agree that he left a solid group of young players, right?
Just two things I want to talk about in your post. 1st, Torres was the starter – He wasn’t forced into the role. 2nd, you know as well as anybody that ERA can sometimes be misleading for relief pitchers since they don’t always finish their innings or come in during the middle of innings. And that’s exactly the case with Ramirez – He’s been letting way too many runners on base. He’s walking a ton of batters, and is giving up a ton of hits, and that shows in his WHIP which is 1.50.
I think Omar left a solid couple of kids, the ones you mentioned. Tejada, Niese, Murph and Harvey. I also think there are still some kids in the minors who will make some noise. But you’re turning my words into something it’s not. This is not an anti-Omar post. This is a point pointing out the most egregious of hypocricies when some people laud Omar for some kids, then complain about Sandy for not replacing them.
And as far as Torres, he was the backup. At the beginning of the season, he was a place holder till Kirk was ready. If Kirk hadn’t gotten hurt last season, and played with the Mets in September, he likely would have made the team out of ST and Torres would never even have been included in the Ramirez deal. And I think you know that’s probably very close to the truth. Kirk was ready three weeks into the season and Torres went to the bench. Then Bay broke his ribs and Torres/Hairston were forced into the starting lineup more regularly.
murphy and neise were not MiL kids that Omar left for the future. they were part of the ML team. Every team has ML players, so it would only be fair to compare them to other teams ML players.
Exactly. Look at Washington and Atlanta’s core group from their systems and compare what we put out on the field and it’s not even close. Cincy, Tampa, Texas, SF, STL, to name a few.
If count just from 05-10(the years Omar was here)?
If you take out Votto from the Reds (cause he was drafted in 02 – you can’t compare players from the 02 draft to players from the 05-10 drafts), their core doesn’t look as good.
And remember nobody is saying “great”, we are just saying “solid” or just “good”.
Also, you have to remember, the Mets didn’t have the luxruy of having two #1 overall picks and other top 5 picks like the Nats.
Could you imagine what kind of core we would have if we had that luxury???
I think what happens is that we look at these other teams, let’s say the Reds for example, and we say “wow look at their core, Votto, Cueto, Phillips, Bailey, ect. our guys can’t match up with that!!!”.
But when you look at it, Votto, Cueto, Phillips, and Bailey, were all in the orginazation before Omar was GM here! So of course they are going to be better because they had more drafts and more time to develop players than Omar did.
And let’s look at Texas for a momment. your right that their core blows ours away, but your comparing apples to oranges. When you look at their team, you would see that the majority of their players have not come from within, they came in through FA’s and trades. And the best guy that have developed, Ian Kinsler, was drafted in 2003. Like I said, that it’s unfair to compare players drafted in 2003 to guys from 05-10.
C Napoli – Acquired in a trade.
1B Moreland – Drafted in 2007
2B Kinsler – Drafted in 2003
3B Beltre – FA signing
SS Andrus – Acquried in a trade
LF Murphy – Acquried in a trade
CF Hamilton – Acquried in a trade
RF Cruz – Acquried in a trade
DH Mike Young – Acquried in a trade
SP Yu Darvish – FA signing
SP Ryan Dempster – Acquried in a trade
SP Colby Lewis – FA signing
SP Matt Harrison – Acquried in a trade
Sp Derek Holland – Drafted in 2006
Closer Joe Nathan – FA signing.
So, when you just look at the guys they developed, they certainly don’t blow us out of the water. The only guys that they have starting for them that are drafted or signed as IFA’s(Yu Darvish doesn’t count because he cost them 100M), from 05-10 are Moreland and Holland – That’s it. So, compare Moreland and Holland to our guys from 05-10.
Also, the biggest signing of the offseason, has a worse ERA and WHIP than D.J Carrasco had in his two years with the Mets.
And when I was talking about complimentary players I was talking about players that could actually start on a major league team – Not stars, but guys who can start.
Start where? Who were you replacing? Remember, Ike, Thole, Duda and Kirk were part of a solid young group of kids, right? Obviously you’re not replacing Wright and Tejada. Murphy deserved his chance at 2B and look how much better he is than we all thought. And you know Bay wasn’t going anywhere with his contract. What starters were you bringing in? Yeah, the closer hasn’t worked out. But the starting pitching as a whole had been very, very good for most of the season. I questioned bringing Pelf back like everyone, but in the ende it made a ton more sense, especially with all the pitching depth. Harvey is the 10th starter Hefner was the 9th That’s pretty deep. And Dickey, Gee, Santana and Niese were locks for the rotation. Gee had a freak injury. Who exactly was being replaced?
Whoops, I should have read yours before making mine below… Lol
So long as a good point is made, I don’t care who makes it.
CF was the only open position in this past offseason and there was nothing on the FA market to fill that position with and everybody and their mother knew they could not come back in 2012 with Pagan as the CF again after his disasterous defensive play last year and not to mention even if the free agent market was deep we were in the midst of a record payroll cut that some think Alderson wanted to do instead of maybe thats what they needed to do. WTF were people expecting him to do while shaving 50 million from payroll. We have a ton of holes and very limited resources to work with while half the payroll is eaten up by 2 players who ae not contributing at all.
Well, obviously the bullpen was the biggest weakness and his efforts to fix the pen have been an epic failure since the Mets bullpen has been the worst in the majors. Francisco, Ramirez, and Carrasco, were toal busts. And since he failed to add a 2nd lefty, it lead to Byrdack being misused and eventaully injured.
That’s just unnacceptable, and there’s no way to spin that.
And the catcher postion certainly could have beeen upgraded in the offseason. I didn’t feel Thole was part of the young group of players that we had.
Also the reason why I brought “complimentary players” here was because I wanted to point out, that you always have to have “complimentary players” to fill in the gaps, no matter how good you’ve done developing guys – So people saying we need guys like that, wasn’t contradicting any points made about Omar cause you will always need those guys – I just want to make sure we all understand why I 1st brought that up.
And Fonzie and TRS, if your saying there weren’t many open spots in the lineup or rotation, then those guys who filled those spots must be pretty good, no? If you think there weren’t many open spots, then you basically agree with me about the guys Omar left behind. Cause if they sucked or weren’t any good, then they wouldn’t be filled, right?
1st of all I never said they sucked. I just don’t think you can or ever will be able to build a championship club around that group. There were no open positions because they were seeing if any of these guys could hack it at the MLB level and there weren’t any other opttions then to go with that group. There’s nothing better in the system and won’t be for next year either.
And again you can’t forget how weak the free agent market was and the fact that there was so much uncertainty with ownership and finances that they couldn’t delve into it anyway. They slashed a record amount of money from the payroll which was happening no matter who the GM is. Teams are also not knocking down our door to get at any of our players not named Harvey or Wheeler.
I don’t disagree with you about the pen, it’s been awful. No way around it. I also knew from day one that Thole is not a MLB caliber catcher, I can’t imagine why I can see that and no one in the FO can. There really weren’t many viable options except maybe an offensive catcher who’s not much better defensively than Thole which is who I wanted them to go after, Ryan Doumit but other than that there was nothing else out there that’s any better than what we had already.
My problem with our system is what my problem has always been. We don’t produce impact players. Only 3 of them in the last 20 plus years and 2 of them were IFA’s, Reyes and Alfonzo. Wright is the only draft pick since the 80′s who’s turned out to be a star player. That’s even more unacceptable than a bad job buying a bullpen.
6 drafts and all I can say is he did an average job at best as we speak right now. That can change but right now the best we’ve got is complimentary players. We don’t have a nucleous. It’s the nucleous that needs to be developed not the complimentary players.
You can go out and get complimentary players on the FA market, trades, Rule 5, etc. It’s much harder to try and build your core that way. Especially now that ownership has capped spending like a mid market club.
Had they spent on the draft over the last 20 years we wouldn’t go through so many down periods.
I don’t care about 20 years ago. It’s irrelevant. It’s ancient history.
I care about the young guys we have now, and the job the current GM is doing.
And I think it’s too early in these guys careers to say they aren’t impact players. I think you should wait before making that judgement. Cause at this moment right now you may be right, but a few years from now? The chances are a few of these guys will turn into impact players.
Like Harvey has a very real shot to be VERY good, and I don’t think I have to tell you that.
All I’m saying is to just give these kids some time – That’s it.
I think that’s well thought out and very level headed. But now I ask you, should we give them time, or should we bitch about Sandy not signing FAs to play in their place?
I’m not saying we should sign players to play in their place. And I never did. What I think the Mets should have done a better job at were the pen, C, and CF – All postions where I feel we didn’t have any good young players or the young guys weren’t ready just yet – Like I think Kirk would have benefited from some extra time in the minors.
Ok, then. Fair enough. A mojority of the people thought Kirk was ready, or at least advanced enough to adjust at this level. I was one of them (the adjusting part, not immediately ready). A very large majority were. If you weren’t, then I appluad your foresight. If you say you saw this coming, then that’s good enough for me.
I was really surpised at how well Kirk played when he 1st came up. I thought he was going to struggle……I thought he proved me wrong, but turns out, he did struggle, but just much later than I 1st thought.
That’s sort of the exact opposite of how I fel about Tejada. I thought he’d be good, then really play well next year. He’s playing now like I thought he’d play in 2013.
Didn’t have a whole lot to work with when they got here, including $$ and a bottom feeder farm system..
Still think you’re shooting the messenger. If not for the $$ problems, quite possibly this FO looks different, as does the team.
Here’s the thing, we all knew this was a transition or a find out what we have year. So let me ask you this, what spots would you have dumped in the name of being competitive this year?
1B nope
2B they were going to see if Murphy could play 2B and that has worked out pretty well.
SS nope
3B nope
C you could make a case against Thole for sure but he is still young and learning the position. Last I looked he and Pena had about the same amount of innings caught. So even if some of you are sure he is not the catcher of the future I am not sure the Mets feel that way.
LF Bay was a lock stinky or not any team would have given him another chance.
RF Duda was in a similar position to Murphy and it did not work as well. How many were clamoring for him to go to AAA to start the season?
CF I guess you could have gone out and got a better CF who was a great defender but I don’t remember many available. The plan all along seemed to be get it to Kirk.
SP was set as far as the first 5. You could have left Gee in AAA not in the pen if I remember correctly he can pitch there. Besides, then you would have questions about Gee.
The bullpen, however didn’t have those same situations. Really there were few in house possibilities, thus why they spent so much money on the pen.
Finally all this to say, the problem for next year is that although some questions may have been answered we may not like the answer.
Coco Crisp and Rick Ankiel were pretty much the cream of the crop in CF this past offseason.
A lot of those “real” baseball people wanted Ankiel. DFA’d. They wanted Lidge. DFA’d. Wanted Pudge. Retired because no one wanted him. Wanted Qualls. DFA’d, then traded away.
Part of me doesn’t think for a second those people thought those guys were any good. I’m fairly certain those guys were desired because Sandy DIDN’T sign them. I don’t know what’s worse.
Didn’t you also want Qualls?
After 2010. Not after last year. I wouldn’t have hated it, but I was happier at the time with three guys Sandy brough in. I got killed for wanting him after 2010 because of his ERA.
At least he wouldn’t have been as bad as Francisco.
In hindsight, sure. But Frankie has never been this bad. I’m not convinced he’ 100% healthy yet, but that’s only an excuse for being dreadful, not for being otherwise bad.
There was another guy: Yoenis Céspedes
I know what your gonna say: “can’t afford him”. But take a closer look. He makes about 9M per year, Francisco makes 6M – We could have made a play for him. No doubt.
It would have been a bold move, but it would have given us a potential building block at a postion we are weak at.
That’s the type of move the Mets should be looking to make.
Agreed, but Cespedes wasn’t signing to play in AAA. So I’ll ask you again. Who was he playing instead of?
Torres. I would have liked Kirk to spend a little more time in the minors.
Fair enough.
Joe D.,
With you 100%. Alderson is bright and respectable, but he no longer gets a pass for being the $3 million Wilpon mouthpiece. We’ll see this winter. No more talk. Do what is necessary to field a team with major league caliber catching, outfielders, and closer. Spend, trade, beg, borrow, steal, whatever. The Madoff excuse is gone, the keeping all draft choices is gone with the new collective bargaining agreement, the young pitching is ready or very close. No more excuses. Anyting less than 100% completion of required tasks should result in fans voting with their feet and wallets. If not, then the fans should keep quiet. Oh, and #5 will vote with his feet as well.
We all thought Duda and Davis were going to have break out years especially with the closer and lower fences at Citi Field They didn’t. But that doesn’t mean their careers are over, either.
We really created a hole in center by trading Pagan and getting Torres in return. Whatever one wants to say about Angel, he has been a key player for the Giants this season and they are in a battle for the division with him. I don’t think there are many who would wish the trade this past winter was never made for it is obvious the Giants were the winners and we were the losers in that one.
We also went to try to fix our bullpen this season but all that meant was that new pitchers took over for Carasco and company with the same results.
And Sandy Alderson did anticipate problems with Johan this past winter. He expressed concern about how effective Santana could be over the course of the season – something we all knew. But what was his solution to the problem when Pelfrey went down? Chris Young! That left him quite open by relying on two starters away from the game for a year (and with Young, many). That’s why when Gee went down, Johann started to wilt and Young not able to go more than a few innings, all we had was Matt Harvey in reserve. That’s what happens when counting on those recovering from major injury to do the job.
And again, Sandy did speak about Santana’s stamina last winter. He just did nothing for contingency.
Nothing for contingency? Come on. Carrasco got a start or two and he was a complete bust, Batista was terrible this year, but he did well in that role last year and deserved a shot. Maybe his leash was too long, but at the beginning of the year, he wasn’t a bad 7th starter. After that, you have Young, Hefner and Harvey. That’s plenty of contingency. Harvey notwithstanding, because of his pedigree, obviously, but Young and Hefner could likely crack a lot of team’s top 5. And they were the 8th and 9th for the Mets.
Young and Hefner would be 1 and 2 in Colorado.
Schwinden would be #3.
Hi Extreem,
Carassco got a start or two? He has started a total of two games over the past five years!
Since Sandy not only expressed the organization’s concern about Santana’s stamina, we all know that Mike Pelfrey’s status as a starter was in jeopardy as well.
So the Mets were only truly counting on Dickey, Gee and Neise. Was all he could come up after that was injury plagued Chris Young who had pitched a total of 40 games over the past four years coming into 2012 – does that mean the concern he expressed about Santana’s stamina didn’t apply to Young as well?
By contingency plans, it could have included re-signing Capuano whom he liked (I didn’t but that doesn’t matter). Or how about one or two starters in the top 30 or so in the attached rankings?
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/transactions/free-agents/pitchers
Didn’t have to go after C.C. Sabathia but there were others out there which could have helped fill the rotation – and our bullpen – a lot better than what he did. Again, it seems the Mets were only counting on three starters in the rotation and did little in “contingency” to compensate for the lack of perceived depth that winter.
That’s just revisionist history and complete ignorance of fact. Pelfrey was in jeopardy? Of what? He wasn’t even the fifth starter. Gee was. And all winter the Mets and Santana were saying he’d be ready for opening day. So that’s all five pitchers they were counting on in April. As far as insurance, why would you just ignore the fact that Batista, Schwinden and Hefner were all waiting in the wings besides Young and besides the general thought that Harvey would make starts down the stretch?
Hi Xtreem,
Sorry that you said this was an ignorance of fact for unfortunately it is now a case of your own words being thrown back at you.
Pelfrey’s stay with the Mets was not in jeopardy? Not according to what Terry Collins told him. Not according meeting that Met executives had before breaking training camp considering just releasing him outright.
http://metsblog.com/news/morning-news-mike-pelfrey-was-warned-job-was-in-danger/
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/03/30/report-mets-brass-recently-suggested-releasing-mike-pelfrey/
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-30/news/31256475_1_mike-pelfrey-mets-dan-warthen
“And all winter the Mets and Santana were saying he’d be ready for opening day”. Oh really? In December, Sandy said:
““We do have some question marks, of course, with Santana being one of them We think he’s going to be ready, but he might not be. That’s where the [pitching] depth becomes important.”
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/mets/santana_may_not_be_ready_for_opening_7R6XCeLHhBS7LIFs2ibb1L#ixzz23wELHG8S
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/13/gm-says-johan-santana-might-not-be-ready-for-opening-day/
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ycn-10678621
So attached are two sets of documentation confirming how much in danger Pelfrey was in regards to being released and the worry about Santana’s physical condition over the winter. Next time I suggest a little bit of research so to properly recognize when and when not history is being revised – and by whom.
Not one of those articles about Pelfrey were written in April. They were all ST articles about his spring performance AFTER he was given a spot in the rotation and being counted on to perform. By the way, he pitched very well before he got hurt. That’s precisely the definition of revisionist history. The Mets were couting on Pelfrey in the rotation. He struggled in the spring, yes, and recourse was discussed. Nothing came of it. To then go back and say that they weren’t counting on him and show articles that said he struggled and recourse was discussed AFTER he was given the opportunity to perform is textbook revisionist history.
As far as Santana goes, your own quote speaks to my point about the depth, first of all. The second article you provided, but curiously didn’t quote from says the following “For now the Mets’ projected rotation is Santana, Jon Niese, Mike Pelfrey, R.A. Dickey, and Dillon Gee.” But they weren’t counting on Santana or Pelfrey. Of course. What was I thinking.
As far as thie third article goes, well, consider the source. “Adam Martini is a freelance sportswriter who grew up in Queens, N.Y. with a view of Shea Stadium from his bedroom window. He spent many nights in the upper deck at Shea rooting for the Mets.” The title of the article is “Mets’ Santana May Not Be Ready for Opening Day: Fan Reaction” Fan reaction? That’s the best you have?
Your embarassing yourself again…One had a dateline of March 30th
The only reason they counted on him is because they had no one else to go to!
So it’s not like they didn’t go after another Pitcher because they had Pelfrey in the wings they had BIG questions about giving him ARB and even honoring the arb before the season started!
They kept him because when they looked to see what thier Plan B was they really had no one other than Young who was another two months away!
Basically they went into the season with no real backup plan just the minimum starters and hoped for the best!
That makes you the one trying to be revisionist because you are trying to re-write the history on WHY pelfrey got his rotation spot…Not because he was good but because they had no one else and couldn’t find anyone better! At least not for the peanuts they are willing to spend!
Hi Extreme,
Well, do you mean to imply that Terry Collins telling Pelfrey the front office wasn’t happy with his performances and that it subsequently had a meeting in which they discussed releasing him was all due to his spring training performance and nothing else? That it was just a sudden reaction and something they weren’t concerned about up to that point? That they weren’t having such thoughts at all during the winter based on his prior season and a half performances?
If that is indeed the case, then it doesn’t display much of a thought process of the front office, does it? Wouldn’t that show a tendency toward reacting on knee-jerk impulse instead of deferring judgement until one has had enough time to come toward a reasonable conclusion?
The Mets were counting on Santana, Dickey, Neise, Gee and Pelfrey as their starting five. The Mets also had serious reservations about two of them. The approach they took was based on those two facts. Agree or disagree with standing pat and their course of action is is fine with me for that is only an exchange of opinions on our parts – but to suggest that Pelfrey’s job – let alone his roster spot – was not in serious doubt, or that Santana’s health was of no concern to them – THAT is revising history.
And as far as an article being the best I’ve got…. well, it was just one of three I posted and again the point I was to show what the Met front office was thinking and that my criticism – right or wrong – was based on true facts and not anything revisionist.
Also, if nothing more, that “freelance sportswriter who grew up in Queens, N.Y. with a view of Shea Stadium from his bedroom window and spent many nights in the upper deck at Shea rooting for the Mets”showed more credibility with his facts than the one insisting the front office was not worried about Santana not being ready or Pelfrey not being in the rotation.
Joey D. August 18, 2012 at 9:15 am .
So the Mets were only truly counting on Dickey, Gee and Neise.
Joey D. August 18, 2012 at 9:15 pm .
The Mets were counting on Santana, Dickey, Neise, Gee and Pelfrey as their starting five.
Only took 12 hours, huh? Yes, there were reservations about two of them. Which is why Batista and Chris Young were re-signed, Hefner was acquired, Schwinden was protected on the 40-man and all that while having a pretty good idea Harvey will be ready at some point. Plenty of depth. Say what you will, but as I mentioned before, Young and Hefner would break lots of team’s top 5, and here they are as the Mets 8th and 9th starters. Depth.
“One team official characterized the recent discussion about cutting Pelfrey as “just what you do in meetings, throwing (stuff) against the wall, and we throw a lot of (stuff) against the wall,” and went on to predict that Pelfrey would have a strong year for the Mets.”
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-30/news/31256475_1_mike-pelfrey-mets-dan-warthen
That is from your above link.
He was never cut it is that simple. It was considered as it would be with any team when you have a deadline before you are commited to pay the agreed arbitration figure. Not only was he not caught but he started pitching better after that. The Mets came into camp expecting to have Santana, Dickey, Pelfrey, Niese and Gee be there starters.
Hi North,
That they didn’t cut Pelfrey was not part of the discussion regarding what was fact and what was revisionist history about what was being contemplated over the winter.
It was reported that Terry Collins warned Pelfrey about what the front office was thinking on March 18. Do you think that was not serious and that the front office was just “throwing stuff against the wall” during a closed door meeting 12 days after a manager tells his pitcher coming off one and a half bad seasons of poor pitching “This front office isn’t like the one you’ve had in years past. This kind of stuff isn’t good. They want answers.”? Or that this was a case of the media overplaying it?
And Extreem,
Yes one can say the Mets were counting on five starters – Santana, Dickey, Gee, Niese and Pelfrey and also say they also had doubts about two of them – Santana and Pelfrey at the same time – because that was the case. That they decided to stick to the five they had despite their concerns was the action they took.
There is nothing to suggest it was serious. Again he was not cut the article you posted goes on to say that it was more about discussing options.
Your speculating the seriousness of it. The fact remains he was not cut.
He was offered arbitration and he was part of the Opening Day roster. The serious stuff is speculation.
Wow!!!! WOW!!!! Its true…..It is a freakin cullt. A cult of slurpers.
That quote is nothing more than just a bunch of words to make it through the day. If it’s taken this long for him to figure out the situation the team is in, just how long will it take him to fix it? You can figure that will be a REAL long time. Will there be a championship in the Mets future before we reach the next century? Realize that may not happen in the lifetimes of all of us who read this blog.
Hi Joe D.
What does it mean having “Your comment is awaiting moderation” appear after one’s comment?
Joey
North,
When a manager says something as severe as what was told to Pelfrey regarding the front office’s feelings, it is difficult to conclude that what the message conveyed by Collins was not serious. Also, why did they wait till the last possible date to sign him?
At the time the Mets finally did sign Pelfrey, they had no other choice – there was nobody else to take his place on the staff. And if released they would get absolutely nothing for him whereas they might have been able to if included in a trade.
Again there is nothing but speculation on your part as to the seriousness of it.
“One team official characterized the recent discussion about cutting Pelfrey as “just what you do in meetings, throwing (stuff) against the wall, and we throw a lot of (stuff) against the wall,” and went on to predict that Pelfrey would have a strong year for the Mets.”
“just what you do in meetings, throwing (stuff) against the wall, and we throw a lot of (stuff) against the wall,”
They discussed it as they should have.
Again your speculating the seriousness of it. Pelfrey was offered arbitration and that was followed with him on the Opening Day roster. Collins comments do not say anything about him being very close or in “serious” risk of being cut.
“This front office isn’t like the one you’ve had in years past …This kind of stuff isn’t good. They want answers.” – Terry Collins
Where does it say he is in serious jeopardy of being cut?
When you already have the quote from someone in the discussions saying that the Pelfrey discussion is what they do in meetings, throwing (stuff) against the wall, and they throw a lot of (stuff) against the wall. To say it was more than that is speculative.
Hi North,
If Collins didn’t have that talk with Pelfrey, then yes, I would have also considered it just throwing things off the wall for discussion and the media overplaying it just to make a story. But when the manager raises the ire of the General Manager to a player, it’s serious. The GM is the one who makes the decision to keep him or to cut him and at that time, Pelfrey was not re-signed.
Let me ask: if told by your immediate supervisor that company executives were not happy with your work and wanted answers, that it was pointed out to you that those now residing in the executive suite aren’t like the ones in the past and if you, yourself knew your work had not been up to par for quite a while and was hurting the company – you would not take that to be serious? It’s not different for us than it is for an athlete when it comes to business.
“When you already have the quote from someone in the discussions saying that the Pelfrey discussion is what they do in meetings, throwing (stuff) against the wall, and they throw a lot of (stuff) against the wall.”
North, I’m sure you are aware that a large segment which comments on MMO does not take stock in public statements made by the Mets front office nor trusts most anything said by them anymore. Do you feel the opposite and believe most of what they say at face value? And if so, do you think under this particular set of circumstances that anybody (including you and I) would openly admit that to the media if it was true?
So you agree your speculating as I have suggested from the beginning. That is all I wanted to get at.
Look if you want to say that in your opinion you feel Pelfrey was in serious jeopardy of being cut you are more than welcome to do so.
Really I am going to put this to rest. I am only going to restate what I have already said and in fact I am already restating myself more than I care.
You can continue to speculate if you wish but that is all you are doing. That you struggle with this I can’t help.
Let me know if you ever find a quote from Collins saying Pelfrey was in “serious jeopardy of being cut”. I doubt you will ever find it but if by chance you do I will reconsider my thoughts on this.
Have a good morning Joey D.
Your all speculating if you must know!
Face it the fact it was mentioned in a meeting is a little more serious than you give it credit for!
I’m sure no one threw the same notion up against the wall for Niese or Gee!
The issue is none of you have a timeline that you can point to as to what happened when. They could have thrown it up on the wall in a meeting to discuss offerring arb and then got serious about cutting him after they gave him the 5 Mil and he was not performing.
Joey may be speculating that it was serious but then again you and X are speculating it was nothing!
North,
Neither of us would have wasted our time going back and forth had you just insisted that in your opinion I was reading between the lines incorrectly and provided your reasons for feeling that way rather than continually preaching to me about how I am being speculative.
Yes, I speculated. So does most everybody else in this forum – including you as Metsie was correct to point out. But what I was suggesting was a very well educated guess reading between the lines with all that was said and all that we had known about Pelfrey’s contract status and performances the past season and a half. It was not just idle speculation.
But it seems you go out of your way to single me out and nobody else for things that most everybody in this forum does. This time it was preaching how much I speculate in the insulting manner of talking down to one and trying to teach a lesson. You don’t lecture others like that though most every one here contemplates and speculates all the time – this being an opinion forum. First, it was telling me I “repeat” myself – while never saying that to the many others who make the same points over and over again as well – and on conversations I am not even involved in. There was also that comment pointed out how you respected somebody else when the conversation was with me.
That is why I once accused you of being coy and unforthcoming in your intentions to belittle and I think it is now understandable. And at least those who use certain expletives toward me do so with others as well so it is not a question of a personal vendetta.
Your kidding right now your playing the victim card?
Are you even aware of the number of comments you make in a given month? Now cause I reply to 1 or 2 of those many comments I am singling you out?
You keep insulting me simply because I express a difference of opinion.
Read back every comment I made in this post.
Then show me where I am insulting you.
Then go back and count the amount of comments you have made over the past month and tell me the number of times I reply to them.
Now I am supposed to not reply to you unless I reply to everyone else as well? Give me a break. I am nor insulting you or stalking you as you are trying to suggest. I am replying to a comment you made as this is one of the reasons for the comments section.
I don’t know what your problem is but it seems you mostly come here to complain more than anything else and if you haven’t noticed I seldom reply to those complaints of yours as it is your right to do so as often as you wish. Something I have already told you earlier this season but I reserve the right to reply to whomever whenever I wish so long as I do so without personally insulting the individual. Which I can’t say you have afforded me the same courtesy when we have disagreed.
You can complain to Joe D if you feel your are being somehow unfairly attacked and I am sure if he agrees with you he will let me know but I doubt it will come to that cause there is no truth to it.
You have taken to insulting him for awhile now MNJ.
Insulted the manner in which he posts and your perieved repetitiveness….
And in this thread you sure sound a lot like Fonzie with the Your “You got nothing but threads” approach to the discussion….
He does have a quote saying Terry warned a player…Thats enough smoke and where there is smoke there is fire!
No other players recieved such a threat so to dismiss a threat and much ado about nothing is nothing more than dismissive behavior of a point for the sake of not wanting to talk about it.
It’s something that goes on a lot around here where people are so busy trying to keep the Teflon nice and shiny despite all the crap that is thrown on it and dulling the armour of the FO many of you were hoping would be loved forever!
Hi Metsie,
Thanks so much for standing by me on this one – not about whether I was right or wrong about my thoughts (which you correctly pointed out was speculation on my part) – but in which the manner that MNJ has conducted himself.
As I said, he is coy and though does not use use words like “bullshit”, “liar”, etc. will instead lecture, preach and belittle in a most obnoxious manner common of those who look down on others. What MNJ does is using a difference of opinion in a pretentious and deceptive way to come across as being polite while subtly letting one know he is above others. Perhaps I should be flattered that I was chosen as his whipping boy instead of feeling humiliated by his pretext.
As you and others suggested to me, I will simply ignore him for I am sure this is not going to be the last word on the subject.
Wow! You have taken a conversation about the seriousness of Pelfrey’s job status and reduced it to a this?
Pathetic.
And there is classic example of what we were talking about!
Did Jessup write that for you because it sure sounds like something the SMUG BROTHERS say on a daily basis to people who express their opinion around here when that opinion seems to not coincide with “Sandy is the Mother Theresa of GMs and should be loved and adored!” You Xtreeme Jessup and Donal seem to be so interested in maintaining around here!
He’s more polite in his Smugness than the others but he still is a memeber of the SMUG BROTHERS brigade!
If you don’t agree with thier “RATIONAL” opinion then your crazy, a hater, dumb not a fan or in this case PATHETIC!
And joe wonders why there is crap in the chatroom that requires banning….
You give what you recieve has been my experience.
You give respect you get it, you give insults and beratement and thats whats going to be reflected!
Hey Metsie,
Remember this?
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/03/pelfrey-was-told-by-collins-his-job-was-in-danger.html
Notice Rob Johnson wasn’t told his headline “Pelfrey Was Told By Collins His Job Was In Danger” was speculative? Rob even ended the piece by calling it a predicament. Last time I looked up the word, it’s definition was “a difficult, perplexing, or trying situation”. Nothing said about that not being serious.
While it wasn’t important to personally hammer the point about being speculative to an author who devoted an entire article about Pelfrey’s status but it was very important to do so with one who made the same comment and quoted from the same source material.
It wasn’t about our difference in opinion but about speculation. His own words were “That is all I wanted to get at.”
In his own word “pathetic’.
Joey D grow up. If you disagree with my take make your point and if your going to ignore me then do so and stop with the silly references.
I never attacked you personally I never stalked you. I had an exchange over a difference of opinion in how you described Pelfrey’s situation.
I expect more from you. I take you for a articulate and rather intelligent person based on some of your comments so why you choose to conduct yourself in this childish manner I do not know.
Again I disagree with what you said and made a point to explain why. You could always end the conversation with we will have to agree to disagree rather than resorting to insults.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt and looked the other way the 1st 2 times you insulted me but not this time. Practice what you preach and grow up.
That’s what he does North.
I big problem that I see, that could probably be changed relatively cheaply is coaching. The entire philosophy of trying to get batters to hit for more power has ruined this team. We need coaching that can maximize the averages, never mind the power. How many times have we seen this season where even a single could be the difference in a game?
North, if all you were doing was disagreeing with me, why did you have to hammer in so much about me being speculative while never saying that about anybody else? That was the reason for posting that past MMO article.
Let me ask – if the roles were reversed (and I am not talking about opinion) and if one interjected into the discussion that YOU repeat yourself, that one wanted to prove the point that YOU are speculating yet never did that with others, or that one talks in terms of respect for others and not YOU – could you honestly say that you would not feel offended and being talked down to and being singled out?
If my reaction can be dismissed as being childish, then there is nothing more I can say but to ask you to please stick to your opinions without any editorial comment about the individual. This is MMO, not “Real Dirty Mets Blog” which, in the title itself, implies something.
1st off I don’t know why you bring RDM into this but your welcome to RDM anytime to be better informed and know the meaning behind the site name then you already are based on your remark about the name.
Again “I Did Not Insult You” you took an exchange of words between us and made it personal.
Nothing you say changes this fact.
Try acting as an adult and saying “I am going to ignore him” only to then do the opposite. I am here whenever you want to debate all I ask is to stop taking a difference of opinion as some personal attack on your persona.
I am a grown man I make an effort not to play some of the childish games I see here on all sides everyday. I ignore ppl whose opinion don’t matter to me and I also don’t go out my way to bait or troll them. I comment on almost every post here everyday and disagree at times with things the site owner down to regular posters have said and I am not accused of trying to insult them.
I ask for 1 thing. Practice what you preach.
rather than* saying
Come on Joey, you now going to resort to winning again and playing the victim card? If you want people to stop patronizing you then grow up. I am sure your hero Metsie will have your back because you certainly need it all the time for some reason. I am sure it’s because you are just so nice and have no agenda whatsoever.
As for your attempt at a low blow vs TRDM, as I always say I appreciate the uncalled for attack for it leads to free advertisement. I will send you that check when ou show you are old enough to spend it.
Dude, take a Valium and chill the eff out!
Don’t put down Metsie because we happen to agree with each other most of the time. What about Jessep? Didn’t he say how we disagree about almost everything yet are both cordial with each other? Jessep and I have never had need for a discussion on civility even though we are thorns in each other’s side. Metsie has the ability to let cyber bullying slide off his back and respond accordingly – a trick I haven’t yet quite learned.