19
2012
Dan Warthen – The Sacrificial Lamb?
An article by 
Someone is ultimately going to have to answer for the collapse of the Mets pitching staff and poor performance of the bullpen in 2012. It won’t be Sandy Alderson. I doubt it will be Terry Collins. The only person left is Dan Warthen.
Is it really fair that Warthen takes full responsibility for what has happened with the Mets pitching staff over the course of this year?
Warthen did a fantastic job with the pitching staff in 2012 right up to the All-Star break. His job is to get as much out of his pitchers as he can, and put the offense in the best position to go out and win the game. That is exactly what he did for the first half of the year. The starting staff was pitching great, and we all thought the team was primed for a playoff run. They were hitting on all cylinders…and then the wheels came off.
The Mets bullpen has been about as reliable as a chair with three legs this year. But who’s to blame for that? Is it the pitching coach’s fault? Should it fall on the manager, who ultimately makes the decisions on which pitchers to bring into the game? Or is it on the general manager who brought these guys in?
There isn’t much coaching that can be done when it comes to bullpen guys. They are either going to perform, or choke – so I think that clears Warthen to a degree with the bullpen. We can’t blame him for the pitchers he has in the bullpen. Putting all the blame on Warthen for the bullpen woes, when Alderson brought these guys in, really isn’t fair to Warthen.
I don’t know if we can blame Warthen for what has happened to the starting pitching either. It isn’t Warthen’s fault Santana seems to be running out of gas. We can’t blame him for Gee getting a damaged artery. We can’t blame him for Dickey not being as effective the second half of the year. In fact, he’s doing about as good a job as can be asked given the situation surrounding this starting staff.
I’m not saying Warthen is a great pitching coach. I am looking at this strictly from the perspective of the 2012 season, and what he should be held accountable for. Everyone played a part in this collapse. But regardless of who it is, someone will be held accountable for what has happened in 2012. Unfortunately for Warthen, he may be the person who receives a pink slip come season’s end.
About the Author: Mitch Petanick
Mitch is currently an Editor and Minor League Analyst for Mets Merized Online. His baseball experience includes being a former All-Conference collegiate baseball player who had numerous professional tryouts, and he is currently a hitting instructor. He has been involved with the game of baseball for over 30 years now as a player, coach, and consultant. Mitch is also a former Featured Columnist on Bleacher Report. You can follow him on Twitter @FirstPitchMitch.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 24 | 18 | .571 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 20 | .535 | 1.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 23 | .465 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 24 | .400 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 32 | .256 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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Fair?
Its BEYOND FAIR !
This fawker should’ve been given the boot eons ago !
Sacrificial lamb MY ASS!
Mitch, he’s been here since what, halfway through the 2008 season. Over that period of time, under his watch, we have witnessed the worst pitching staffs in franchise history and the worst I’ve ever seen. The only reason he still had a job & wasn’t shown the door with Omar, HoJo, and Jerry is because of a guy who won’t even be here next season (Pelfrey). Don’t try to feed me the “he did a fantastic job with the pitching staff in 2012 right up to the All-Star break” line. Tell me how fantastic he did with the BULLPEN right up to the break? Whenever both of our staff is clicking (rotation/pen), it rarely lasts. That has been the case ever since Warthen arrived. Cutting this clown loose will be one of the best offseason moves they make.
What I forgot to mention….
You may say “There isn’t much coaching that can be done when it comes to bullpen guys”, but try telling that to the pitching coaches in Texas, Cincy, or Washington for instance.
It’s about time this team gets a real pitching coach. Warthen may not bear the responsibility for the staffing probems with this staff, but there has certainly been plenty of coaching shortcomings for this staff this season and earlier since he has been here. As far as I’m concerned, it couldn’t happen soon enough.
You can play this game with every coach but fact is when the hitting or pitching goes bad for a long period the coaches are usually the first Togo. How Warthen is still here?….
Warthen is no “sacrificial lamb”. He is more cause for the Mets’ pitching problems than innocent bystander. Let’s go back to 2009 when Johan Santana began having shoulder issues around the all star break, subsequently altering his between starts routine because of the discomfort. Warthen said he knew nothing about it! You’re the pitching coach! It’s your JOB to know what’s going on with your pitchers! Then, there’s the Pedro Feliciano situation where the Yankees blamed the Mets for overuse (Yankees aren’t blameless, they should have checked him out better) and Warthen responded by saying Pedro always said he was good to pitch. Well, Dan, any ML player worth his weight is going to say that! Regardless if he is or not! Warthen did nothing to protect him from overuse, he just kept telling the manager that he was good to go. Could probably say the same thing for Byrdak this year.
Where was Warthen to step in and say they should have Santana’s ankle checked after the Cubs game and subsequently put on the DL? Who knows, maybe he did but the F/O said forget it because they needed Johan to continue to pitch so they could keep fans coming through the gate. Either way, Warthen has done more to contribute to the problems this staff has had rather than help. How is it that he’s still here?
Well Mitch I was one who thought Warthen should have been gone when Manuel left.
As for our current pitching problems I don’t blame him or identify him as the problem, I identify him as ‘NOT THE SOLUTION”
Saying that has nothing to do with his knowledge or coaching ability it is just that some coaches are better in certain situations than others.
Warthen is a pretty hands off tweaker. For the most part he lets the pitcher find his way with minimal input and gentle reminders.
Works fine with guys like Santana and Dickey who pretty much are thier own Pitching coach and don’t need a coach to stay on top of them.
Warthen would be an ideal Pitching coach for a team like the Phillies (circa 2011) where the top 4 in thier rotation was filled with Veteran ACE types who don’t require a lot of coaching just a second set of eyes to point out things they see that the pitcher then corrects on his own.
In that respect he is sort of the Joe Torre of Pitching coaches. Great with experienced Vets who nidges when needed but for the most part merely lets them do what they do.
As I said that works here with Santana and Dickey but it’s certainly not what a guy like Pelfrey, Gee, (and even more so) Harvey and Wheeler are going to need to succeed.
Niese seems to be coming into his own but still is inconsistent at times.
In the end I look at Warthen as the Antithesis of a Peterson who doesn’t know when to stop and leave well enough alone.
As for the Bullpen I put that squarly on the GM. Can’t blame a coach for not being able to fix crap!
As I’m apt to say, “You can’t polish a turd!”
Google metsblog 2010 mets-could-shut-down-jon-niese
In 2010 Dan Warthen wanted to shut down Jon Niese but was overruled by Jerry Manuel. The mets blog article is somewhat misleading as Jerry Manuel did not listen to Dam Warthen. Jon Niese collapsed at the end of 2010 and eventually had to be shut down. Jerry Manuel was trying to save his job and Minya too.
PS I was not trying to defend Dan Warthen but trying to be objective. Yes Warthen has to be be replaced.
Linking to SNY/ CerroneBlog? YIKES!
Hotstreak on metsmerized…lol…It mustve gotten really bad over there at snyblog
Absolutely correct Bad News!
LOL@Hotstreak!
Awwwww you remembered…wonder what gave me up lol
I don’t know if he will or be fired or not but I don’t think he is as bad as some make him out to be. Though I agree that taking on the job of a Hitting/Pitching coach comes with having to sometimes be the sacrificial lamb. I don’t think Warthen will be it this off season unless it comes with Terry being let go as well and Backman coming up to be the manager in 2013 with his own pitching coach.
If Dickey happens to win Cy Young award, it would be politically tought to fire Warthen.
I think Warthen’s days as Mets pitching coach are numbered having already been on short leash after last season in which retention of his job after 2011 evoked serious debate within Mets brass. Another bad year such as this, does not bode well for his return. It’s time for someone else to take the helm and I think it highly likely to be the case.
Running with the idea that he is let go who would you think replaces him Longtime? Brewer down in AAA?
Like i’ve been saying, to me it’s the owners and the gm who puts a team together, That’s why the wilpons need to get out and everything start over from top to bottom, new manager, new coaches. We need new blood for these players, baseball is in the old fold any more. We need people who can give confidence to these players, mode them right on how to play the game. We also need a new hitting coach, cus bay needs it, some of these players need it. So let’s get rid of the wilpons and start over with a new vision, better our team for the right reasons.
No offense to the author of this article personally, but it’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve read in long time. The excuse-making for Dan Warthen is way over-the-top, some of it, jaw-dropping.
I don’t see where I made excuses for Warthen. I pointed out facts surrounding this season and this season alone. 90% of people out there need a finger to point at, someone to blame, and someone to hate without fully understanding what coaches really do at the major league level.
With opening in Houston, can we keep Wally in waiting to eventually take over TC’s job. I would appreciate your opinion.
Mitch didn’t make any excuses just pointed out a few facts that you could point to as something where he might deserve some credit.
How much credit you give Warthen for those details may vary.
In my case I think the Pitchers get the majority of it and when they ran out of gas there was nothing Warthen could do to fix that.
Warthen is a hands off guy and hands off guys usually have a minimal impact on events.
Warthen seem more to me as a conduit between the manager and the Pitching staff and less a guy meant to make our Pitchers better.
Warthen didn’t pick the staff in fact it was the staff that seemingly picked him!
Whether sacrificial lamb or not, something needs to change. Coaching is pretty much the only change the Mets can make that is cost effective. What they have now is not working. Neither pitching nor hitting.
It doesn’t really matter who your coaches are if your players aren’t very good.
Mitch for arguments sake say the Mets did fire Warthen would the most logical replacement in your opinion be Brewer up in Buffalo?
The question they have to ask themselves is if they want to bring a good coach up to the major league level where less player development is needed…or leave that guy down where they could be more beneficial developing the players and getting them ready for the big leagues.
I think there are two different coaches you can get…
Developmental coaches who teaches them how to throw this and that and mechanics,
Then the guy you need at the MLB level who can coach them on how to use what they learned to be effective in the MLB.
Developmental Coach – Here is how you throw a curveball, Here is how to locate it.
MLB Coach – Here is how you use the fastball to set up the curve, Here is where to locate it vs LHB, How to move inside and outside of the plate effectively and to maintain the mechanics that allows him to do that!
Two very different tasks that require different Coaching skill sets!
Jersey, what about the guy in Savannah, former WS MVP and the last 20 game winning Mets pitcher in “Sweet Music” Frank Viola?
Isn’t Rickey Bones like a roving pitching coach or something in the Mets organization as well? I think Mitch posed a good question in that do the Mets want to call up a coach that has done well in developing their pitching prospects in the minors or let him continue to do his job in the minors?
It isn’t necessarily true that young pitchers need less player development in the majors as Mitch suggested. What if the Mets brought in a coach that has some sort of the pedigree Viola has in developing young talent down in the minors to replace Viola? We’ll have a lot of good young talent here within the next two years who will value the tutelage of Viola.
I agree young arms do need player development in the majors. I would suspect if Warthen is kept around that signs of struggle with the prospects coming up in Harvey, Familia, Mejia and Wheeler the Mets would replace Warthen with a coach the kids have had better success with in the past like a Brewer. My point is the concern in a decision to remove someone from a position where he is perceived to be having success in the minors and replace him with someone that may not have a similar success.
Once they get to the major leagues the majority of development is complete…whether that player matures and blossoms into a solid player really is on the player. If there was major development being done on the big league level you wouldn’t see younger players being sent back down to the minors for development. There’s tweaking at the big league level but clubs expect these players to be developed by the time they get to the big leagues.
Good point. I think we are saying the same thing generally speaking for the most part. A player like Harvey is still in need of tweaking as you say as he gets acclimated to the Bigs. I called it development.
Since you brought up Harvey let me just touch on what I would do if I were the mets pitching coach – I would fine his ass every time he threw that crappy change up lol. Save that pitch for 2013
A happy Met fan is an oxymoron.
Sandy Aldersons former pitching coach in Oakland……”Dave Duncan”
Or Leo Mazzone
If they can get Duncan I’d sign up for that right now.
I dont know why but for some reason I always had this conspiracy theory of Tony LaRussa and Duncan joining Sandy in NY with Mets. That would be a move in the right direction if they could get that kind of leadership on board but just wishful thinking
That ship has sailed. If LaRussa wanted to reunite with Sandy Alderson, he would’ve made the jump to the Mets when he was still undecided in either returning to STL or not two years ago.
Back when the rumors started about Alderson possibly being the next GM I wrote a post wondering if a Alderson La Russa reunion could happen in New York. If you recall at that time La Russa was in the midst of considering if it was time to move on in St Louis. In the end it never came to fruition.
Bring Back Rick Petersen please.