16
2012
Are You Happy With The Direction Of The Mets?
An article by 
Are you happy with the direction of this team?
Never mind all that 2014 mantra you keep hearing about, lets be honest here… When do you think the Mets will ever advance to an NLCS again?
Seriously…
Are You Happy With The Direction Of The Mets?
Robert P. – A few months ago I would have said yes, now I’m back in a wait and see mindset. The Mets can’t fall back on their home grown guys again this offseason. They need to make significant free agent acquisitions at positions where there in house options have failed. If that doesn’t happen, I don’t see the team back in the playoffs, never mind the NLCS before 2015.
Clare – Wow, tough question. I would like to see the Mets in the NLCS within the next 5 years. I know that we have a young team and we need to improve in many areas. Still, once the money situation gets straightened out and we can dump some bad contracts, I am hopeful that Sandy will go out and get the pieces we need to make the Mets contenders again. Wouldn’t it be nice,especially in our All Star 2013 year, if the Mets were competitive next year? Still, we need to be patient and get the right players that fit, not just big name players.
XtreemIcon – I’m happy with the direction the team is taking. While not every decision has made me happy, by and large I’m happy with the direction. I can’t predict who advances once the playoffs start. It’s a different animal. The Nationals were expected to win 85 games this season and they have a real shot at a World Series. The Marlins “won” the off season and were the first team to sell, even before the Cubs or Astros. Last season’s 102-win Phillies barely showed up to the NLDS. I’ll be happy when the Mets are a legit contender every year, and that’s the way it’s headed. When they get there, let the chips fall where they may.
Mitch – If the Mets want to spend some money they can compete as early as 2013…the problem is they have a small market mentality now. As long as they have that small market mentality, I don’t think they will make a World Series appearance in my lifetime (I’m 34).
NYMets945 – I have hoped since Alderson was hired that 2011 and 2012 would be assessing years seeing who could help in the future and I am still hoping 2013 is the playoff year. I do not want to hear any further excuses from Sandy and company following this offseason. The Wilpons have the Madoff situation figured out and now its time for them to begin spending again where necessary. 2013 is the year I want the Mets competing into September again.
Mike B. – No. I am not seeing as I have no idea what direction they are headed. Can this team add payroll? Can they keep any of their big names? This club is shrouded in mystery and I am sick of it and it is time for some answers. I can’t see them advancing into any significant October baseball anytime soon.
Jessep – The direction is a tough word for me to comprehend. I believe they are recognizing significant problems and are not rushing to do a quick fix. If that is a “direction,” then yes I am happy with it. I am tired of these short glimpses of success. They are restructuring from the bottom up, and that takes time. Is it working? I have no idea – I don’t think anybody can say one way or the other for a few years now. I do not buy into the idea that the farm system proved Omar was doing a good job. I think every team should have some big leaguers in it – but the truth is, we aren’t seeing anything more than fringe talent right now. There’s a long way to go.
Joe D. – What direction? I see a team adrift at sea with no vision from the man at the helm. I’ve seen a team that could compete and was competing, stripped of all confidence and left to whither away while the front office did nothing to help. To those who say we are rebuilding, I say then why did we walk away with just 21 of 42 players drafted? Why did we fail to sign our second round pick – one of the top right-handed high school pitchers in the country? Most of the other players we did not sign were for $100K or less. That’s not building from within. All those players could have added more depth and quality to a system that is sparse in those areas. We were told that there would be money to spend mid-season if the team was in contention for a wild card and that the organization would not punt this season like they did last season – just two more untruths in a tenure full of them. I see a team that can’t hold onto their homegrown stars. I see a team that would rather have the picks instead of those stars – even though they don’t even end up signing those picks. If that is the new direction, we must be on the highway to hell.
You have a voice too, and we want to hear from you. Tell us what you think…
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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At this moment, no. I’m annoyed we could not add a couple minor pieces to stay competitive this season. I understand a long term plan but what if that plan never comes to fruition…we put up with crap every season until, when?
First I read 2013 then 2014 and yesterday I read 2016.
I don’t know how Pirates fans did it.
XtreemIcon – I’m happy with the direction the team is taking”
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lmao, i mean, you cannot make this up… the team is getting worst by the day, the team is looking more lifeless by the second, lies from the GM keep piling up, on rout to our 2nd consecutive losing season under this front office, our prospects are not a guarantee to be good, so i am not sure why anyone, and i mean anyone would suggest that the direction of this team is good or that they’re happy with it.. unless you’re a person who love sandy alderson and still believe in him i don’t see what’s to like about what’s going on with the team.they’re not gonna spend on good FA since the GM does not like to sign good players to long term contracts, so look for more 1 and 2 year bad deals in the foreseeable future, they didn’t even wanna spend on the draft picks, 21 out of 42 players didn’t get sign, and the RHP they picked from the reyes deal was not signed due to $680 K more he wanted, and the mets had like $1.2 million still to spend, so not sure why anyone with some objectivity can say they’re happy or content with what’s going on … seriously people, it’s time to admit this FO is a failure and stop slurping SA.. My goodness.
Since 2000 there has been one successful season, yet now “it’s been two consecutive years of this FO failing”.
Can you please come up with a grown up word beside slurping?
Seriously – I’m not asking you to change your mind, but for the love of God make your point like a grown up, there plenty articulate ways to repeat your hatred minus the juvenile, pretend language.
Not using middle school rhetoric? Impossible.
PLEASE stop using “slurper”
Grow up.
IMO, there’s a reason most of us Met fans seem to be confused on the direction of this team – and why no clear cut plan seems to be forthcoming.
All connected dots lead back to the Wilpons. Like a house built from a deck of cards, one good breath and it will all come tumbling down. They’re holding onto this team by the skin of their teeth right now.
Where is the documentation to support that? Are their obligations all paid up? Are any loans in default? Did they bounce any payroll checks? Are you their accountant or something? What about the $250 million cash infusion from minority owners of which half went to pay loans &,debts and the other half in their pockets? Skin of their teeth? I wish I was as broke as Fred.
Documentation has been reported on various sites by various writers over the past year or longer.
No, not all loans are repaid.
No, I’m not an accountant.
Wilpons are not broke. The Mets are.
LMAO@ The Mets are broke….Hilarious!
You continuously beat this drum as a matter of fact you are the only one beating it.
“Still, the deal announced Monday left Wilpon and Katz, who together personally promised to guarantee $29 million for the trustee, speaking confidently of the team’s future.”
“Katz said outside the courthouse that the Mets were on secure financial footing. “Always was,” he said.”
Straight from the horses mouth!!!!
THEN THEIRS THIS OF COURSE:
http://observer.com/2012/06/metlandia-related-and-wilpons-score-a-bigger-than-predicted-willets-point-development/
LMAO!!! quit it SRT
Leroy, she’s using that as an excuse for the upcoming offseason, once her lord fails yet again she can blame the wilpon for his ineptitude. these slurpers are smarter than you think. They know how to build an all world defensive front for their idol… It’s amazing how they continue to defend this clown with heart and sould
Alex,
You’re absolutely right
Dont get me wrong we all know the Wilpons are terrible owners, BUT Selig didnt suggest Alderson to the Wilpons for the job to be a puppet. He is in full control of this team after Fred made those comments about Wright not being a star and the team just sucks he has played the background. Sandy is in full control of this team to run it as he sees fit. The only input he needs from Fred is whats the payroll for the year. And I refuse to believe that the Billy Beane has more money to work with in Oakland than Sandy has in NYC.
You don’t think the Mets are broke???
Mets? Maybe…Wilpons? Hardly!
Notice friend alex how world about how pathetic you are. lead cult puppet JESSUP starts off by telling us just how stupid he is. He doesn’t know what direction means, but of course in his cult puppet world he is happy with it. The word slurper that they are offended by is totally appropriate for someone like jessup who is happy even though he admits to his ignorance.
Well, get used to it, that guy is the worst.
Amazin, I know who you are. Why don’t you stop antagonizing people and talk baseball? I was kind enough to unban you after a year-long exodus. I was hoping that when you showed up as Amazin, that you would share some amazing insights. We go all the way back to those game chat’s on LoHud, I know you have it in you.
And the Wilpons said when Madoff was first arrested, that the Mets aren’t in any financial straights.
Lo and behold, couple of years later we’ve got minority investors for the $$ and nothing but the $$.
Look at the entire picture.
srt in all seriousness, they weren’t.
It wasn’t until Irving Picard went after them with a billion dollar suit that things changed and got scary for them and they pulled back while professing their innocence as any owner would be advised to do by counsel.
I wrote about that, and also said from the beginning that Picard had no case and no smoking gun. Nobody would listen to me at the time because they were busy wishfully thinking.
Also, to be clear, all MLB teams operate on a significant debt threshold and that is nothing that is exclusive to the Wilpons or the Mets.
‘It wasn’t until Irving Picard went after them with a billion dollar suit that things changed and got scary for them and they pulled back while professing their innocence as any owner would be advised to do by counsel. ‘
No argument from me on this point, Joe.
I believe they initially thought they’d be O.K. Wasn’t until the lawsuit and the down revenues since Citi opened, especially last season – that it all changed.
Not disputing that most MLB teams operate in the red. Still doesn’t change my opinion that the Wilpons are holding on by the skin of their teeth.
Hi SRT,
In addition to what you mention – in which the Wilpons did not anticipate – was that they were expecting continued approximate sixteen percent returns on their half billion investment with Madoff and saw both wipped out over night – along with those projected revenues from attendance at those high ticket prices.
Murphy’s Law (not Daniel’s) certainly applies to them.
srt and Joey – Only the Mets could build a new ballpark and see down revenues every year since it opened.
That’s what they get for selling the naming rights to a bank that contributed heavily to the mortgage crisis and recession and took huge money from the government bailout.
They were jinxed right from the start.
At least the Houston Astros wasted no time tearing down the signs that read Enron Field.
Hi Joe,
Never even thought about the connection with the naming rights. All some of my friends and I did was slightly alter the name to “shitty field”.
Enron Field…Oh, boy…..
The problem here is oe people don’t really want to hear the truth on the finances and even if they do they look at it from the perspective of a Middle class POV where having a 150 million dollar loan seems crazy!
I don’t blame SRT and the others but the truth is believing this makes them feel better about what is happening because they think will the simple change of ownership everything else will change with it. But it won’t if the same guys are running the show in the front office which is where the majority of the spending decisions are being made!
While the idea of being sued for 1 Billion might cause the Wilpons to say hey we can’t afford to lose money because if we lose we won’t have extra cash laying around to pay the bills so don’t spend much…. they didn’t tell Sandy what to spend what he did on and lets face facts the money we spent on that Bullpen is pretty much a wasted bust!
1 Billion dollars would pay for the current team Salary for 10+ years!
if it was what most expected 300Mil that would have covered the current payroll for the next 3 years.
If they had lost the billion then maybe they would be broke, If they had lost 3 or 400 Mil then maybe things would be tight.
They didn’t lose a thing hell they may even make some money if their equal share of the claw backs come out to more than 170 Mil!
The debts owed on the Stadium were affordable when they took the loans and are affordable now!
The fact they were getting some quick extra cash out of the Madoff fund was not what they were depending on to pay the loans for the stadium off they were counting on US and truth is the way this team is being run they are in way more trouble in regards to not having money to make thier payments due to the lack of fan interest in going to that stadium due to the sorry state this FO has been putting this team in by thier inaction to improve.
All of this financial talk is nothing more than to make fans feel better by allowing them to deflect the blame from the guy running the team to the guy who owns the team.
As if there was money we would see the front office do anything differently!
Well this Front Office has had money before and never used it!
Everywhere they have gone by the time they left they had cut total payroll and left a team in a state that required drastic measures to succeed.
We talk about the success of the A’s but it all stopped two years before Sandy left and Beane had to invent Moneyball to compete because Oakland (to THIS DAY) has never reclaimed the attendance they had in 1991 (when I say Sandy took over as the total power there!).
That year they drew 2.7 Mil the 2.4 mil the next year and have never come close to those numbers since!
He gutted the padres as well and the only increases he made were due to keeping one or two guys that were there and signing a quanitiy of the same types he has signed here!
San Diego currently has the lowest Payroll in Baseball!
Why? Because they never got those KIDS they were promised who played well enough to be worth raising Salary for!
People want to feel better thinking they can win a WS once Wilpon is gone are just in denial about what this FO has and is (not) doing here.
To say the OWNER who has a history of spending and OVER spending is the reason for our lack of spending as opposed to the GM who has never spent freely anywhere he has been and has a history of cost cutting wherever he goes is just naieve if you ask me!
I think they do it only because they went on record think (on hope) that a new GM would make things better and he hasn’t. So now to save face lets blame it on the Owners who like it or not were the ones who brought us the last good season everyone pines for 1986!
Still can’t go 5 minutes without lying. He was forced to cut payroll in both Oakland and San Diego by ownership but I guess it’s easier to make things up instead fo a few minutes of simple reasarch.
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Rickey-era-ends-in-Oakland-again-3117056.php
A’s general manager Sandy Alderson is under orders from new owners Steve Schott and Ken Hofmann to slash the 1996 payroll from last year’s $31 million and play younger players.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Rickey-era-ends-in-Oakland-again-3117056.php#ixzz23kULfncF
To meet the $40 million payroll mandated by club chairman John Moores, the Padres apparently need to trade a high-salaried player either before or during the season. Whether Jake Peavy is that player still could hinge on whether prospective Cubs ownership approves a larger payroll for 2010, when Peavy is due $15 million.
Padres CEO Sandy Alderson, who has said Peavy likely will remain with the club until Opening Day, recently confirmed that San Diego’s payroll projects about $5 million above budget.
“Right now, what we have projected is between $44 million and $45 million,” Alderson said Friday. Asked if that number is about $5 million above budget, Alderson said, “Right now, it would be.”
Alderson gave no indication that either Moores or prospective part-owner Jeff Moorad would expand the payroll.
Though Alderson said last year that a $15 million cash call was planned for 2009, Moores has made it known that’s off the table
So what you are saying is that you are not a parrot of Alderson, you are a parrot of Wilpon. That’s even more pathetic, unless of course he gave you some of his ponzii scheme profits. the cult is indeed a hapless and demented group.
What I am saying Amazin is you’re a fkn idiot who does nothing but stalk people. Get a life.
Trying to have an intelligent debate about all things Mets with some of you angry posters is just a waste of time.
Your constant Wilpons are broke comments are hindering intelligent discussions. Try something else for a change.
Really?
Wonder where we would be if Reyes and Beltran were still here! You have some people here in a drunken stupor who think we are in Margaritaville. Wake up and smell the fumes! This front office sucks!!!!
Hi Bx,
Be careful about mentioning the name Beltran here……
” I do not buy into the idea that the farm system proved Omar was doing a good job. I think every team should have some big leaguers in it – but the truth is, we aren’t seeing anything more than FRINGE TALENT right now. There’s a long way to go.”
REALLY!!!
1.Jon Niese
2.Dillon Gee
3.Matt Harvey
4.Ike Davis
5.Daniel Murphy
6.Ruben Tejada
The whole lineup is Omars players and “IF” they were fringe MLB’ers(which i disagree with) shouldnt the GM have addressed that??? He’s had 2 FULL YEARS!!! And no improvements from him but promoting these supposed fringe guys…So what does that say about him and the job he’s doing or should I say NOT doing.
Players whom helped this team to the good 1st half the mets got off to before being sent down to be replaced by SCRUBS
1.Lucas Duda
2.Kirk Nieuwenhuis
Sandys is always receiving kudos for his signing of Scott Hairston whom is probably having his best season of his career. And Lucas Duda is seen to be struggling this year, BUT if you compare the numbers between the two they are having identical years
Duda .241AVG .335OBP 12HR 44RBIs
Hairston .267AVG .307OBP .14HR 44RBIs
Very similar stats only difference is one is coming from a 32 yr old whom probably wont be here next year and the other is from a 26 yr old whom will be here…And I know some will say “oh Duda stinks defensively” and negate the fact that he was forced out of position to accommodate Ike Davis return(rightfully so) and Jason Bay of all people a la Daniel Murphy….BUT Hairston is no better than Duda in RF for that matter.
Nothing but excuses for this guy no accountability…YOU CANT BLAME OMAR FOREVER!!!
No one blames Duquette for Omars tenure
The comparison of Duda’s season to Hairston are lacking 1 thing. The number of plate appearances it took to reach them.
Duda hit .241/BA, .345/OBP, 12/HR, 44/RBI over 355 plate appearances from April 5 to July 22.
Hairston hit .256/BA, .296/OBP, 12/HR, 37RBI over 223 plate appearances from April 5 to July 22.
But your also being unfair because a lot of those PAs of Duda’s were vs Lefties where Hairston’s reduced PA were due to him being protected and not exposed to the Righthanders early on!
Hairston has 117 AB vs Righties and a lot of those came just recently (last two weeks) after Duda went down and Bay was sat.
Duda had 111 ABs vs Lefties and stopped compiling stats almost two weeks ago!
Doesnt change a thing…. I’d still take Duda over Hairston whom was put in favorable matchups against lefties for most if not all of his at bats…check those stats
Definitely Hairston was put in vs lefties and most of his damage came against lefties but that is not what you initially said. You simply compared them straight up but in doing so the hr’s and rbi’s while looking similar are not due to the number of plate appearances it took to reach them.
Long term I still think Duda as an everyday player can produce similar to what he did last season. Duda was sent down unlike Ike in my opinion simply due to the team not playing well at the time and they couldn’t afford to carry his struggling any longer when he also was not providing and defense as well.
Hairston is not an everyday player in my opinion. His strength is in how he was used most of the season as a bat off the bench and a spot starter. The fact that he struggles vs righties makes him a poor choice as an everyday player in my opinion.
Actually I think Duda got sent down because he was also a Fielding Liability where Ike was the best fielding 1B we have.
Metsie,
Hairston is a fielding Liability…why would you replace a fielding liability with the same
He is slightly less a fielding liability than Duda is….
I’m on your side here FYI LOL
I’m just pointing out that Duda was not performing at the plate enough to offset his liability in the field, if he had been hitting better or batted right handed he would still be here!
truth is the fact that hairston hits RH is the main reason why he is getting into the game at all!
If there was someone else who hit decently and was RHed then Duda might still be up here!
I compared them straight up because in doing so the plate appearances is only separated by about 52 PA, not that big a disparity between the two. The stats are roughly the same only difference is Hairston SLG% is most likely much higher but Duda has much better OBP%/plate discipline. My point is Hairston is a 1 trick pony, he’s equivalent to a Byrdak out of the Bullpen a LOOGY lefty specialist same as Hairston he is LOHGY(Left one-hit guy).
And you cant justify sending Duda down and keeping Ike up. As poor of a season as everyone believes Duda was having he was part of the reason the team was winning. And may I point out he had it worst than anyone on the team at the time because he had Ike batting behind him for a while and when it wasnt Ike it was Bay. And both guys were batting below the Mendoza line so Duda got nothing to hit no protection. It was an unfair move period no excuses if you tell the team they will be held accountable for their play and you show favoritism or you’re inconsistent with your judgement you lose all credibility and lose the respect from guys.
If youre telling the fans we’re rebuilding you need to play the players whom have a shot at being a part of the future. Not vets whom have been part time players for the majority of their career. It makes no sense this should be an evaluation season since we’re completely out of it and the GM refused to add help when they needed it because he didnt believe in them. You dont demote a player based on 1 month of struggles after he has played well prior. With that logic David Wright would be benched or sent down and he’s our best player but has been struggling for about a month.
But it is not 52 plate appearances. At the time the decision was made it was 132 plate appearances.
You may feel one can’t justify sending Duda down and your welcome to your opinion but I feel otherwise based on what I previously mentioned.
I’m 25 and the closest thing to a championship club I’ve seen out of this team is the 2006 version that came within 1 game of a World Series appearance. However, given the current state of affairs, I’m afraid I’ll never see that again as long as the Wilpons continue to own this team.
If they’re as broke as they say they are, then why doesn’t MLB step in and take the team away from them like they did with the Expos (now the 1st place Nationals) and the Dodgers? Both of these franchises are thriving under new ownership when they used to be doormats not unlike this current Mets team!
Joe I’m glad you said it cause you saved me the trouble!
WHAT DIRECTION?
I see a lot of wheels spinning in place, none getting any traction just doing doughnuts that at any given point in time looks like they may go in one direction only to keep spinning and then look like they are heading in the opposite direction only to spin around again!
there is no movement in any direction to make judgement on!
I had no problems with a long term view when Sandy first took over all I wanted to see them do is not dismantle the team while they put it in place. That didn’t happen.
There was very little added instead, what was added was cheap crap for the most part and what they dismantled they got very little back in return.
They got SQUAT for Reyes and K-Rod!
Beltran who is twice the Player Upton is got a single top pitching prospect while the same folks who support getting Upton think he is worth three top prospects on top of the top pitching prospect we got for Beltran. Some even think it would take Wheeler to get him!
We pretty much sat on our hands this past offseason and what we got has a record of 6-12 coming out of the pen.
And all claims to us having a long term plan were smashed when we decided not to sighn half our draft picks which is supposed to be the key component of long term build from within strategy.
I see no direction no plan at all.
The only consistency of philosophy seems to be regarding payroll.
He costs more than 3 Mil we tend to pass. he wants more than a year we tend to pass.
To go in a direction requires COMMITMENT!
Something this front office does not seem to have in anything they do!
We like this kid lets draft him, but we don’t like him enough to sign him to his slot money!
We think this kid could be a starter, but wait maybe he is a Reliever, No? Wait lets just start him again!
We think this team is good enough to be buyers and 5 losses later change our mind.
We think a kid is ready, but then say no he’s not ready and a week later he is on the Buffalo shuttle heading to start the next Mets game!
We think this guy is no good and send him down then bring him back up to fail again then send him down to try someone else and when they fail we try the guy who failed twice before again!
You can’t go in any one direction if you keep reversing yourself and changing course!
All your really doing is DANCING in place, not progressing and moving from where you are to someplace else you would like to be!
Metsie, you hit the nail on the head. This team is not progressing. It’s regressing. At this rate, we’ll be stuck with the bad Mets teams of the 90s all over again.
Hi Metsie
They got SQUAT for Reyes – They got Plawecki and Matt Reynolds. We won’t know if that is “squat” for a few years right?
“Beltran who is twice the Player Upton is got a single top pitching prospect while the same folks who support getting Upton think he is worth three top prospects on top of the top pitching prospect we got for Beltran”.
Beltran is 11 years older than Upton, and was a pending free agent. Upton is signed through the next 3 seasons.
Comparing them now literally makes no sense and I think you know that. I’m not a big Upton guy but compare him to Beltran through age 24. Upton has a better OBP and SLG, Has way more experience, and was a top 5 MVP. Beltran didn’t crack an MVP list until he was 26.
Excuse me but getting a second round and supplemental pick for an All Star when compared to what you would get in a trade is SQUAT!
As for your comparison of Upton OBP and SLG? First off your wrong about SLG
Upton has a .402 SLG Beltran is at .540
Guess we should dismiss all those HRs and RBIs right?
Beltran has 28 HRs right now how many does Upton have? Answer 9! Beltran has three times the HRs
Beltran has 83 RBI Upton just 46, nearly double the RBI
The difference in thier OBP is the difference of 6 or 7 walks where Beltran gets hits instead!
Maybe we should ignore that BA of Beltran’s too!
And as for his being signed the next three years he cost a Mil more than Beltran does for the next two!
So your not getting a bargain there either!
Yes he is young and you already know how Young doesn’t mean better in my PRODUCTION based criteria for what is good and what is not!
Beltran out produces Upton for less money and if you believe a world of what you have been preaching for the next year you realize that Beltran would have been worth more than Upton even if it meant he had to be resigned because what he signed for was less than Upton with nearly twice the production in the RS side of the equation!
And you can go on with your excuse that he was never coming back here but that doesn’t mean he was not worth then what he is worth now!
Our GM is supoosed to evaluate what a player is worth to ANY MLB team when making a trade and this GM undervalued Beltran and got rooked when compared to what you all think is proper value for a guy like Upton who isn’t as good!
“Excuse me but getting a second round and supplemental pick for an All Star when compared to what you would get in a trade is SQUAT!”
But how do you know? How do you know what they’d get in a trade? You don’t.
“As for your comparison of Upton OBP and SLG? First off your wrong about SLG
Upton has a .402 SLG Beltran is at .540″
No… you’re wrong. Because as I said Metsie, I compared Beltran through the same age as Upton is now. You said Beltran is twice the player Upton is. Yet through the same age, Upton has him beat for his career.
So until Upton turns 35 years old – it’s a pointless debate is it not? But it’s undeniable that through the same age, Upton was a more established and better big leaguer than Beltran was.
Your argument however was that a 34 year old free agent with bad knees should net a greater package than a 24 year old player under contract for 3 more years and who just finished in the top 5 of the MVP race at age 23.
And I’m sorry but that is just wrong.
How do I know?
What was given away in trade for lesser players?
What was being proposed as what it would take for Upton?
How do you know he would NOT get that much back?
I mean if you want to play the How Do You Know game I know the same way you know what Upton and beltran is worth in your opinion!
I’m looking at what they both get paid and by what they do for that money!
And by those criteria beltran is worth at least twice what Upton is!
Metsie – Sorry but if you’re in the camp of
34 Year old bad knees outfielder with expiring contract in 2 months
is worth more in a trade than
24 year old outfielder without bad knees, with 3 years on his contract and coming off top 5 mvp season
Then we part ways and agree to disagree. I doubt you’d get many people to agree with you though.
And if you can’t see that beltran is better than him this year and cheaper for the next two then I doubt anyone will agree with you either.
You keep going off What Ifs on both…Well What if Upton is the .250 hitter he seems to be whenever he leaves the Arizona Ball park?
Is he worth more than Beltran then?
You keep talking about top 5 MVP (mind you never won it!) but dismiss the fact your compaing him to someone who is a ikely Hall of Famer and will go in as one of the best CFs to play the game in the last 20+ years!
Your problem is you think KIDS are worth four times as much based on thier age!
But in this case you would need to have Upton signed for 6 years to get the same thing you would get from Beltran in the next 3!
The only ones who would agree with you are other kids who don’t really know any better and think being young is better than being good!
Which seems to explain why you have been so wrong about so many moves we have made so far!
You seem to ignore the performance in favor of things that never seem to translate to performance on the field!
Having crap twice as long as something good is not a way to succeed.
Please do not try to change the topic which I replied on
You said and I quote “Beltran who is twice the Player Upton is got a single top pitching prospect while the same folks who support getting Upton think he is worth three top prospects on top of the top pitching prospect we got for Beltran.”
Therefore you are comparing the July 2011 return of Beltran to the June/July 2012 “rumored” price tag for Justin Upton.
That’s what you said and that is what I replied to. What Beltran is doing now has nothing to do with July 2011. Nothing.
If both players were on the market in July 2011 there is absolutely no way you would convince anybody that they should trade more to acquire Beltran than they should to acquire Upton. No way. 0%.
When trading for Beltran in July 2011, you don’t get 28 year old Beltran. You get 2 months of 34 year old Beltran.
By the way this is a false statement
(about beltran) “and cheaper for the next two”
Beltran makes $13mil a year for 2 years. During the length of his contract he will earn $26million. During that same time frame, Upton will earn $16.5.
Sorry you and I agree on Upton not being AS Good as people make him out to be – but you cannot logically tell me that he should be worth less on a trade market than Beltran was in July 2011. It doesn’t even make sense.
Oh please…What YOU thought Beltran was worth on a partiular dat even what someone ELSE thought Beltran was worth on a particular date does not negate the fact thet TODAY HE IS WORTH twice Upton!
This entire season I sparred with fellow passionate Mets fans, especially my man, Alex, about the verdict on Anderson. I wanted to give the man the benefit of the doubt. And while our Bad News Bears played .500 or above, I clung to this crazy notion that this was Alderson’s quiet plan all along.
However, like anybody else with a few brain cells, it was clear some Alderson decisions looked worse and worse by the hour–Ramirez of the BP for one, Torres of the OF for two–and so I was very expectant that some triage-type deals would be initiated as we headed toward trade deadline. Sound of water dripping from faucet or ticking of a clock…
Now we are in free fall, and the small tears in the fabric are becoming gaping holes. Through all this, I have looked to ownership and the GM to at least come out hard-charging, speak to the fans, tell us how badly they want to win, tell us that we don’t have to look like inferior fools to the creeps in the Bronx forever, but…you see where I’m going.
So I see no discernible direction, unless because of the fact that you’re cast adrift–and you have to go in some direction necessarily–you’re going somewhere, and that direction is toward the bottom.
As I look at the 2012 Mets, it seems there’s no reason for us not to plunge to last place within two weeks. If not losing 100 games is your goal, we may achieve it!
As for COllins and coaching, I dunno. Sometimes it seems easy to like TC and then it seems likes he’s a real nitwit at other times. I think he’s giving it his all, and I think he’s a serious baseball man, but he ain’t Tonny Lo RUssa or Davey J. or Earl Weaver. He’s a passionate mediocrity. The rest of the coaches…would any of us miss them if they didn’t show up for work tomorrow.
It says a lot about a GM when Fans whom want(ed) to support him start falling by the wayside.
LOL I guess Alex will have to mail out your membership card to the CORE this week!
I agree wih Clare and XtreemIcon. Sure,t his season hasn’t been great. I would’ve liked to see Alderson go out and get a RH bat to help next year. but overall, things are moving in the right direction. Prospects are playing well and it looks like we’re going to have a young, solid pitching staff in the coming years.
I know a lot of people are upset with the team, but think of it this way- At least we’re not the Astros!
We are getting there though.
dead wrong. We’re not even close.
Astros will be contenders before the Mets and they are doing a far better job of replenishing their farm system than the mets are.
They are the worst team in baseball because they fully committed to improving there team for the future by trading away there best players(Pence,Wandy,Myers,Happ to name a few) for almost mlb ready prospects. While the Mets would rather let there best players leave via free agency and get draft picks.
I disagree. The Mets have big league talent ready right now and a bunch of prospects that will come up in next 1-2 years.
Big league talent is different than performing like a big leaguer. All the talent in the world doesn’t win anything.
We’ll lets see, I’m 58 and I’ve enjoyed championships in ’69 (as a teenager) and ’86 (as a young man.)
Would it be greedy of me to want one more big dance? Hell No. Do I think it will come in 5 years? I hope so. But I d have my doubts.
Firstly, we need a catcher, because Thole, Johnson and Nickeas aren’t cutting it. I haven’t seen Kelly Shippick in action yet, but i don’t think he’s the real deal.
I’m okay with Tejada at short, but we need a lift at 2nd base and centerfield. I believe David Wright when he says he will walk away if management doesn’t get bonafide players to support his efforts. Everyone sees what’s happening to David when he tries to carry the whole team on his shoulders.
As much as I admire R.A. Dickey, I say let him get to 20 wins with the Mets, then cut him. Get what you can for him. Also, unload Santana. He’s over the hill. I’m grateful he got us our first franchise no-hitter, but his skills are waning. If the best things that have happened in ’12 are the no-hitter and, hopefully, a 20-game winner, I’d be happy.
The future of our pitching staff is Matt Harvey, Zach Wheeler and Jon Niese. If we get a healthy Dillon Gee next year, that’s great. Can Jeremy Hefner be a productive starter? We got to find out. Is Mike Pelfrey ever coming back?
I also think we need a new manager and pitching coach. I want Wally Backman. He’s a tough, gritty sob who can bring pearls of wisdom from ’86.
I’d like to see Upton/Victorino in the outfield. Vic is a winner and I know he’d like to stick it to the Phillies. Ship Jason Bay to the AL along with Dickey.
What pisses me off is that everything the Yankees do turns golden. Sabathia’s on the DL, Pettite’s gone, no problem. We’ll just get Nova, Garcia and Kuroda to pitch like they’re Cy Young. And they manage to win 95 games. Mo Rivera is out, no problem. We’ll just plug in Soriano to get the job done.
Every damn thing the Yankees do goes right. They have that cocky air of confidence and are always smirking at opponents. Cases in point, Robby Cano, Nick Swisher and Andruw Jones. Jorge Posada goes down, no problem. They’ll just pick up Russell Martin from the Dodger’s scrap heap and turn him into a very serviceable player. Holy sh.t, I hate the Yankees and their Bronx Zoo fans.
Joe D and Alex 68 nailed it. Something is not kosher in this front office. I was a big supporter of Alderson and his staff, but not anymore. Either their hands are tied by ownership or they are not the “moneyball” wizards we were led to believe. They told us we will not be big players in free agency. OK, I get it. They told us that job one, once the payroll was stabilized, would be the rebuilding of the farm system and the upgrading of our minor league talent. Further they told us that they have the money for the draft. According to Stankiewicz (our second round pick), he received no phone call from the Mets on the last day of the signing period. How is this possible? We completely whiff on signing half of our picks. How is this possible?
Somebody in that front office needs to come clean and give us, the ticket buying fan, an explanation. Thus far, Alderson and staff have done everything to avoid this explanation. I am a lifelong Mets fan, for better or worse. But don’t tell me we are not going to be players in free agency because we are building our farm system and expect us to accept this draft performance.
Hi Buckduck,
So true of what you said. And of your objectivity since you pointed out “I was a big supporter of Alderson and his staff, but not anymore”.
It’s because of comments like that from you and many others than I raised the question if some were possibly having second thoughts about the moves made last season as well. I hope that perhaps MMO might conduct an opinion pole to see if feelings regarding last season have changed in either direction – and that includes those who thought the moves were wrong last year but have since changed their mind as well- in light of all that has happened since. It would be interesting if nothing more for it will show whether or not there is a growing trend one way or the other.
Using the word DIRECTION in the same sentence as the word METS is an oxymoron.
joe how do you know those drafted players were actually signable?
Spoke to Stanky’s dad and cousin so the one that mattered most was signable and the difference between deal or no deal was about $80K.
But Martin, maybe you are on to something.
Maybe it’s just bad luck that 20 of our last 21 picks were unsignable?
Wait, you once told me there is no accounting for luck in baseball because it’s immeasurable. If I do happen to find out about the others, I will post an update.
Or Maybe we don’t understand the new draft system and how those unsigned picks impact next years stronger draft. Until then it’s hard to say.
Well, money they don’t use rolls over, so it’s possible that not signing those 25th rounder and beyond selections was a plan to make sure there’s more money to go over slot on the top picks next year. But that same CBA that rolls over money also penalizes for going over slot. So we probably won’t know for sure till next year’s draft at least.
Yeah, that’s my point.
Yes money they dont use rolls over.
That’s a fallback option not really a draft strategy, especially for a large market team that is “building from within”.
$185,600 in roll-over dollars?
That should be enough for the hotel, meals, player jerseys and caps, and coffee & donuts.
They could have spent an additional $1.2 million without penalty, the roll-over is only $185,600. You see, the money you spend over budget that is in the cushion, doesn’t roll over.
Trs86, maybe you dont understand the new CBA, but why are you assuming I don’t? I’ve read it at least 3 times in full and still refer to my pdf of it whenever I need to check something or verify.
You can read it all you want. Does not mean we understand the impact it has yet.
The difference between signing and not signing could be one cent, why does that matter? The mets offer what the player is worth and the player signs or he doesn’t. My question is how you know what the player is worth.
Umm they are called slotting guidelines Martin. And as Mr. Stanky told me, slotting guideline of $680K would have had his son in Flushing standing next to Plawecki and Cecchini last June.
Can I ask a draft question…
Is it POSSIBLE that they like what might be available in next year’s draft more than they may have liked Stankiewicz? They did earn a pick for not signing him right?
And is it POSSIBLE that $ saved from picks they may not have liked as much in 2012 can be used in 2013?
I’m not sure I know much about him to come up with an opinion but are at least 1 of those 2 questions possible? I think they are…
Stanky goes to college now right?
$185,600 will get you a 10th rounder paid off – maybe. THIS WAS A HUGE FAIL.
But $ aside is it possible they project the talent pool to be better next year? That maybe Stank is worth a 3, 4th rounder in next years pool which means they would rather have TWO 2nd round picks next year?
I’m not sure – I’m not sure we will ever know why it happened – but isn’t that a logical explanation?
Once in a lifetime, players like Griffey, A-Rod and Harper come along. But the the truth is that aside from those types of players, every draft, especially after #5 overall’s number has been called, it is a complete crapshoot. Can you name one player who stands out for next year’s draft? Nobody knows. The projected guys to go high in December, fall to the second and third round in June. Nobody knows. Nobody ever knows. I mean look at what took place this year with the top ten? It was a complete storm that most if not all, ever saw coming.
And yet somehow you think you have a more accurate view of this guys value than the management, having never seen him play. How much was he worth exactly, king joe? More than the other guys the money could have been spent on? How could you know this?
But dont you think the Mets have scouted 2013 players already?
I think WE don’t know the depth of the draft pool…but I hope most teams do no?
I’m just saying its POSSIBLE they like next year’s pool more than they like Stank no?
Draft picks signed and not signed should be judged 5 years from now. Also we don’t know the budget workings, so even in years we don’t know who could have been signed. We can only really judge wins and losses. I like wheeler and I like Harvey and young pitching is the most important thing.
Hi Jessep and Hi Joe D.
A follow-up question regarding those bottom 20 picks – why would they pick 20 that they didn’t care for? Was the raw talent so bad this year as compared to last year’s pool (when they signed seven of their bottom eleven picks out of 50 total) that there were only three this year they felt worth investing in?
I notice that Yankees signed 8 of their bottom 20 picks Considering that the Yankees were the 30th and therefore last to make a selection in each round, it could be considered that they actual had much less of a talent pool by rating to choose from than the Mets.
Don”t trust this FO especially SA when he starts saying the same things Wilpons said in past then they turn out to be false.
Wilpons had a lot of money invested in mortgage industry so they lost money there but there seems to be money somewhere if MLB has not taken team or offered another loan?
I, like many others, can’t trust this FO or ownership because they rarely say anything yet say enough to get fans hopes up then pull back when the situation changes, Mets dying in 2nd half, because they never intended to add any players or payroll.
Not getting another BP arm at least or a vet RH power bat that could at least hit .250 and help cover for David would have been nice but depending on just call ups from minors and not providing serious cover for David in lineup is what says this team is walking in sand and might be the reason David leaves, I hope not, because if SA can’t keep his word with fans for whom this product is produced then how can David, who has seen this FO for two years, believe anything SA or Wilpons say.
Trying to build from within is good but you need veteran leadership on the field to help the young team, this is what SA didn’t do for Mets this year which led to call ups not playing up to required level, not their fault because they were put in impossible situation, and SA did not bring in any veteran help for lineup or BP, as I stated before, so team went south w/o any paramedics or firemen coming in to put out fire.
4 hits by 2 batters does not assure me in any way that this team is going in the right direction. I weep for the future.
I write about this all the time, of course not because the wilpons still own the mets, what in the hell is wrong with everyone, why can’t u see, the fans, the world, that the mets owners don’t want us to get to the world series. They want us to pay so much money to see a product that won’t play the way they should because the players hate the wilpons, let’s be honest why would any players want to be here, cause the owners don’t show their players to be winners, once again the stupid wilpons get what they want us fans to make them rich and us fans suffer, we could have made waves on the trade deadline, but once again the wilpons screwed that up where we could have saved the season, so what eat up the money and send bay to the minors, that’s the only way to wake up a ballplayer who is doing horrible, sit torres, sit ike, sit everyball player on the bench and try younger players to let your product to think about their job. sorry, but the mets have no balls to do it. collins needs to wake up and do this cus the wilpons like i said have no balls and no chance ever of improving our team, does anybody get this besides me. Wilpons SELL- JUST SELL- PLEASE SELL.
Hi Fonzie,
This is an area in which you and I are in total agreement with (sorry ’bout that Metsie, my pal). I too believe has been well publicized and documented that the onus was put upon Sandy’s shoulders in both Oakland and San Diego. And that is the reason why he is making so many similar type moves across the board here in New York.
But that also demonstrates that when one is given such a strict and severe edict financially to adhere to it means debits and credits take priority over doing what is best for the club. The Mets will survive this – the team will not go out of business – and it’s not a matter of keeping the business afloat as it is keeping the current majority ownership afloat so not to be forced into the position where they would have no choice but to relinquish it.
That is why Sandy Alderson was hired for he knows how to handle things when the flow of capital needed to run the Mets has just about dried up. Unfortunately, all he is doing is stalling the inevitable for eventually the Wilpons will have no choice but to sell the team.