What you say is all true, however, from a business perspective I’m sure that in-house marketing research determined what they could and could not charge. I once posted a link that had an interview with a Met executive (forgot who) who said in 2009 they expected to break even if they could draw an average 38,200 per game. That was also based on 2009 ticket prices (including luxury suites). This projection had to be made years before when the decision to build just a 42,000 capacity seat stadium was reached and had to consider how much revenue was needed to offset the costs of running the organization – from player contracts to the minor league system to the grounds crew.

It seems they believed less paying more at Citi Field would bring in just as much revenue (or possibly more?) than more paying less at Shea Stadium. Whoever determined this economic path, let it be the Wilpons or those under them, it was a pathway to disaster. Profits were made the last few years at Shea but Sandy Alderson tells us that the Mets lost money the very first season at Citi Field.

To me that creates a problem that will be long-lasting. With such a small seating capacity, even if the Mets sold out Citi Field every night it would not bring in nearly the revenue they counted on due to the cost of tickets falling so drastically (despite those add on fees). Fans will be even further outpriced than they are now if the cost of tickets are again raised.

From my pespective, that creates a problem that will be long-lasting and perhaps never be resolved by whoever owns the club and wants to turn a profit – the revenue to run the club in the financial manner they hoped for cannot be obtained in such a small park.

Boston, of course, has the same problem yet makes countless millions in profit each season – not from ticket sale revenues but from NESN. Same with other clubs. For the Wilpons not to be able to offset loss at the gate with television and merchandise revenue – which in turn would result in more spending by the club – something must be very wrong in their overall financial world.

Nobody should blame the Wilpons for trying to make as much profit as they can, but when they first opened Citi Field they made it at the expense of shutting out many working class families by charging an arm and a leg for even the least expensive seats and adding extra expensive processing charges to boot. In 2010, when prices were reduced, I paid $63 total for two $19 tickets in the upper promenade outfield reserved. That was $25 more for processing and shipping? The computer prints the tickets. Overnight Fed Express and UPS cost individuals $6.95 so the rate is much less for corporations and it being second day delivery as well.

So while nobody faults the Wilpons for trying to make as much profit as they could, they can be faulted for trying to squeeze the fans as much as they can to make that. And because that also comes from the salaries of the players today being so high – like at age 23 a rookie pitcher is making a half million dollars a year – shows this is not just the Wilpons but everyone in MLB, let alone any professional sport.

WHILE EVERYONE SHOUILD KNOW BY NOW, I’VE NEVER BEE A WILPON FAN OR APOLOGIST
I CAN NOT IN GOOD CONSCIENCE ONLY WITNESS THEIR BEING PILLARIED FOR SO CALLED PROFITEERING. PERSONALLY, I BELIEVE 75-90M IS THE BASEMENT LEVEL TO SUSTAINING A COMPETITIVE TALENT LEVEL IN NYC AS COMPARED TO 50-75M ELSEWHERE AND THE FRONTOFFICE & OWNERSHIP MUST ACCOMODATE THAT SIMPLE FACT OF DOUING BUSINESS IN THEIR CHOSEN GEOGRAPHY.

How could I be missing the point when I wrote:

“But of course, I understand and appreciate the point you were trying to make about taxes, especially with those like you who have worked hard all their lives and find themselves in your situation.”

It was just using Matt Harvey instead of some higher priced verteran as an example. That is why I added “It’s just that at 23, thre is no need to feel bad for Matt Harvey when he sees what was taken off his paycheck.” That to me is not obsene.

But to say “I’M SORRY; BUT WHEN DID MAKING A PROFIT BECOME SOMRETING TO BE ASHAMED OF?” – that is changing the conversation about the Wilpons to a political discussion of which I will not add anything more to what I have already said, that being:

“”But of course, I understand and appreciate the point you were trying to make about taxes, especially with those like you who have worked hard all their lives and find themselves in your situation.”

And keeping this geared toward baseball, the tax situation seems not to have been affecting the Yankees who have the same set of circumstances to work with as well.

IS YOUR TRUE MONIKER… OBAMA OR BIDEN?

WE KNOW YOU AREN’T MITT!

ROTFLMAO!

BOURNE IS A POTENTIA F/A THE METS SHOULD BE INTERESTED IN AS ARE THE BRAVES, NATIONALS & PHILLIES HOW MUCH HIGHER WILL HIS NET INCOME BE IN ANY OF THOSE LOCATIONS?
WHERE DO U THINK HIS FIN’L ADVISORS WILL RECOMMEND HE PLAY?

JOEY, THE POINT IS THAT BECAUSE OF THE DRACONIAN INCOME TAX BURDENS F NYC THE NY METS CAN NOT POSSIBLY EXPECT TO ACQUIRE & RETAIN FREE WILLED TALENT FOR THE SAME GROSS PAYROLL. TO BALANCE THE DIFFERENCE THE METS NEED TO PAY NEARLY $6.6M FOR EVERY MIAMI $1M.
TAK ABOUT OBSCENE…

I think most of us older than Matt Harvey would love to have an annual take home salary after taxes of close to $200K. One can easily live on that each year if not careless.

But of course, I understand and appreciate the point you were trying to make about taxes, especially with those like you who have worked hard all their lives and find themselves in your situation. It’s just that at 23, thre is no need to feel bad for Matt Harvey when he sees what was taken off his paycheck.

Can’t comment one way or the other about Frank Cashen since I have not made a study about him. But we both raise valid questions and points over Sandy and his role and whether indeed a new generation can assess player decisions based on less experience and more ability to analize information and trends through saber metric and other new methodologies. I just don’t believe so because of the complexities of the game itself. Nor do I think that one with Rigney’s experience would suddenly take a back seat to one with Sandy’s background. .

But about Sandy’s role in authorizing decisions with Oakland, it is still a matter of interpretation regarding the public statements. For example, your quote:

“Sandy won’t comment or make any decisions until the Series and the roster study is over,” Rigney said. ”That’s been his policy. He wants to see what we need next year and the next year after that.”

It could mean that Sandy is the one who worked out the trades and signings but it could also mean that Sandy was the one who wanted to see what Rigney was requesting, the reasons why, and if the money Rigney was requesting should be given to him.

Also, you do make the point that “Rather than old baseball men, many teams specifically looked for young newcomers who thought differently than “what we always knew.”” but I’ve also read where general managers have said they hired these people more to decipher what other clubs were leaning toward and how to deal with them rather than to access their own personnel decisions (I forwarded that article quite a while ago and it is hard for me to find it but trust me, I did).

As far as the steroids, I think that is a blot on all of major league baseball. I was reading an article in Sports Illustrated where three who never made it to the majors were personal friends with Dan Naulty and did not think anything twice of him suddenly gaining 30 to 40 pounds and adding about eight or nine miles an hour to his fastball. Sure, I think Rigney, Alderson, Selig, Joe Torre were all aware of it despite the fact that it was something players didn’t discuss with each other. In that article Nautly said about half the players in the majors were juiced – who knows how many were but there were things we saw with our own eyes that we understand today were just not humanly possible. As fans, we were told this was due to weight lifting, etc. and that simply there were so few good pitchers out there like before (which year was it that the AL ERA average was 4.99?). Also, many of us did not follow players so closely as to notice their increased body size, including the head and the feet.

So most everyone from the top down either encouraged it or turned a blind eye to it. Absolutely nobody tried doing anything about it – including Bill Rigney who was raving about the power and muscle build of Canseco in many an article I attached back in the mid eighties.

WHO COMES IP WITH THESE NUMBERS? BTW IN FL (TAMPA,MIAMI) PLAYERS TAX LIABILITY STOPS @ THE 35% LEVEL AND EVERY OTHER STATE WHERE MLB IS PRESENT THE STATE RATES ARE SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER WHILE NO OTHER US CITY HAS THE AUDACITY TO CHARGE INCOME TAXES.
ALL THINGS CONSIDERED, PERHAPS MIKE HAMPTON WASN’T THAT FAR OFF CONSIDERING THE PRICE TAG ASSOCIATED WITH NYC PUBLIC SCHOOLS LET ALONE THE EDUCATION LEVEL BEING SUPPLIED. PERHAPS ITS BEST THE WLPONS DIVEST THEMSELVES OF ALL NYC MLB HOLDINGS & CONCENTRASTE ON MINOR EAGUE OWNERSHIPS IN THE PIONEER OR OTHER INDY LEAGUE LOL

I KNOW, FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCES HAVING BEGUN MY CAREER WITH A NATIONAL CORPORATION IN ’69 IN NYC UNTIL I WAS PROMTED TO CHERY HILL, NJ (HUGE TAKE HOME INCR BY ALTERING TAX JURISDICTION THEN ANOTHER HUGE TAKE HOME NET BUMP BEING ROMTED FROM CHERRY HILL TO WILMINGTON, DE, AGAIN WHEN PROMOTED TO COLUMBUS, GA SUDDENLY A REVERSAL AS MY NEXT OPORTUNITY WAS BACK TO A NJ WORSITE. TALK ABOUT STICKER-SHOCK AS I KNEW THEN I COULD NEVER TOLERATE A RETURN TO MY OVER TAX-BURDENED OOTS OF NYC SELECTING TO PROCEED FROM NJ TO LA,CA. WITH A FINALITY IN MY PRESENT NC SURROUNDINGS WITHOUT A GOV’T HAND IN ALL 4 OCKETS SIMULTANEOUSLY.
CAN U IMAGINE, WHAT HARVEY THOUGHT AFTER SEEING HOW LITTLE WAS LEFT ADFTER HIS BIG PROMOTION? TO THE 425K MINIMUM LEVEL. WHICH LOOKS LIKE THIS…

$ 425,000
-148,750 FEDERAL INCOME TAX
- 68,000 STATE INCOME TAX
- 10,000 CITY INCOME TAX

BTW THAT’S THE MISERY PLACED UPON THE MLB MINIMUM WAGE EARNER; IMAGINE WHAT REYES WAS CONSIDERING AS THE TRUE EARNINGS DIFFERENTIAL

AS TO MATT HARVEY’S TAKE HOME PAY FOR THE FIRST YR THE 425,000 IS NRETTED DOWN TO LESS THAN HALF (46%) WITH 54% BEING SPLIT BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT, THE GOVERNOR & THE MAYOR EUPHEMISTICALLY SPEAKING.

When Frank Cashen took over as Exec VP of the Orioles he had 0 front office experience in baseball.

He took over in 1965 – went from being a writer, went to law school, worked in PR and advertising to Exec VP of the Orioles.

The last time he played baseball was 1943, 1944.

So 21 years prior.

By all accounts wouldn’t you say he was an outsider also?

I’m not sure where you’re going with your argument of Sandy to be honest. Sandy was a special case in Oakland. 1 of the partners of the law firm he worked at took over the A’s as President because his father bought the team – so he brought Alderson in.

We have absolutely no chance to know what Sandy was taught in the 2 years. General counsel for all we know was an excuse to get him in the organization. We’ll never know.

If your point is based on the beane stuff allowing non baseball insiders to get jobs – nobody will tell you that NOBODY ever got a job from the outside. What I will tell you is that a specific skill set which was once never looked at – suddenly became a criteria for a lot of teams to find a new GM.

Rather than old baseball men, many teams specifically looked for young newcomers who thought differently than “what we always knew.”

That’s undeniable.

Here’s what I do not get about the Rigney/Sandy debate

If you’re going to tell me that Rigney was responsible for the A’s championships – then wouldn’t that also mean Rigney was responsible for the steroids more than Sandy?

Call me crazy but I have seen many people who side with you try to pin the steroid era on Sandy, and I wonder why you never replied to them and said “woah wait – Rigney was in charge not Sandy.”

So why is that?

I have 0 doubt Rigney’s role was significant as an advisor but I also have 0 doubt that you’ll never know who made the final decisions and if 1 guy’s title is GM and the other is not, then you really have nothing to go on.

In 1989

“Rigney said he believes that A’s General Manager Sandy Alderson will re-sign Parker as soon as the team’s player personnel department concludes its roster study.

”Sandy won’t comment or make any decisions until the Series and the roster study is over,” Rigney said. ”That’s been his policy. He wants to see what we need next year and the next year after that.”

That’s been who’s policy?

There are plenty of people that have had the title Special Assistant to the GM – or even (wait for it) Assistant GM. Yet you never heard such a huge fight over who makes the final decisions do you?

Are Eric Davis and Mario Soto really responsible for the Reds right now?

They both carry the exact same title that Rigney did.

Not even close, but nice try.

You mean asking if there are some who are now having second opinions about last year based on the growing sentiment by many who said they supported Sandy in the past but now are now too sure? Notice, I made it CLEAR there was no need for either camp to defend or attack the other, that I was only interested if there was a shift in the way some now look back at 2011 based on the history of the front office since that point. In fact, I gave both sides of the argument equal respect, brought up Beningo’s comment and added:

“No need to challenge me on my thoughts or defend your own opposite stance so please no personal remarks – I am only curious how many might be having second thoughts due to the changing sentiment expressed by many of late in relation to the front office and ownership.”

That was not opening up an argument for debate on my part. If everyone simply says “no” I think it was quite clear one you would find no disagreement from me. And to prove that, I won’t even venture a comment even if specifically asked to.

Anything wrong with that?

Everybody, see what I mean?

If somebody infers one who admitted having no baseball background when being hired by Oakland after years of private practice in law yet immediately – in addition to overseeing the complex and demanding rigors being the team’s General Counsel – began making draft pick selections, trades and free agent signings which led to a long run of post-season appearing teams…. well, the one who derives such logical conclusions must be implying this individual has to be a genius. Either that, or it really doesn’t take much to be a general manager.

My reference to Friedman pointed out he was the only general manager other than Sandy to have so little experience. I did not offer an opinion, only an acknowledgment that he at least had a baseball background which Sandy didn’t.

Or do you suppose Sandy was just trying to perpetrate a myth proclaiming he came to Oakland with no real professional knowledge of the game for reasons only known by his own self?

Oh, and Jessup, thanks for the nice words about us disagreeing so much but in a cordial manner. I wish more would abide by the example of both of us to debate their differences. In fact, it is quite often that those of us having friction in the forum get along fine in the shout box.

So I suggest that behavior simply be expanded to include the forums and llmit words like “bullshit”, “liar”, etc. to Sandy Alderson, the Wilpons or even Bill Rigney instead of each other so nobody’s feelings are hurt. I know you and I are willing to do it. So how about the rest of you guys and gals?

No that is not the year when many of you contend Alderson took over the role of player personnel decisions. That is the year 2 people contend he took over. I’ve never heard anyone ever make such a ridiculous claim. The rest of knowledgable baseball fans and even his peers, colleagues and superiors know he took over in 1983. 83-91 he was always in the top 5. 1995 new ownership took over and ordered payroll to be slashed dramatically. I don’t know how many times we have to go over this and I don’t know why you have to keep repeating the same garbage every day.