Metsie, I don’t think we need expire ourselves anymore on this particular subject since it has been made obvious to us that no experience in baseball is required to formulate player personnel from the selection of draft picks through to the trades, signings and releases made on a major league level.

It’s been well documented through the praises made by those working with Sandy regarding his influence on them with statistical analysis – though they don’t specify what specific work he did more than how he applied it more than making it an organizational requirement – and all the articles that say how Sandy “built” the championship Oakland teams, even though the same word has been applied to Bill Rigney in other articles.

In the case of athletic competition, computer analysis is intellect without substance. One can gain knowledge of factual information from it but derive no understanding of it’s roots and meaning. It is void of all elements that do not apply to logic.

As one can see on page 147 of the book “Statistics for Management and Economics”, Sandy Alderson is being praised for new revelations and insights like “he concluded that before three outs everything was possible but that after three outs nothing was possible” and “to score runs is to minimize each player’s probability of making an out”.

An example of statistical supporters failing to acknowledge this was understood and applied to the game all along. And, as mentioned above, facts without substance is not knowledge.
But let’s forget about all that. It has been proven that when it comes to baseball matters, no experience is required.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5rnoaeL5bW0C&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=sandy+alderson+oakland+general+manager+with+no+experience&source=bl&ots=v_sCdZAB64&sig=0y2G3oFzcxZaFRP6DjekpArZgB4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8SoXUOb0BuLv0gH2u4C4CQ&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

And that is why in that interview Sandy Alderson said he is against giving up an out. So with a runner on first, one hits away. With a runner on second and nobody out, advancing the runner to third is out of the question.

We have showed proof that Sandy was not given the full powers of a GM despite having the title as Eisenhardt took over many of the GM decisions making from Martin and used Rigney as his assistant in those decisions such as who would replace Martin! Who would be brought in to develop the players they were about to get, and to then give Sandy a school on Baseball that he would not get to use to make decisions on until 1991!

No Joey you inferred. I showed facts. I showed the people that worked for Alderson that sd he was the one making the decisions and those decisions were based on his philosophies. You have no merrit you have conjecture. I showed evidence and you refuse to acknowledge it. That’s your problem because your agenda is so deep it makes you stubborn to the facts.

And so again, here are the words of Sandy Alderson talking about Rigney:

“When you talk about people who have contributed to our success, you have to single out Bill Rigney. His contributions have been enormous. He has been involved in every one of our player acquisitions since I came here in 1982. I’ve watched 600 or 700 games with Bill, and it’s been an education.”

“He has been involved in every one of our player acquisitions”? Within any organization, decision making for each specific area is delegated to a certain function within the flow chart and then coordinated with the departments underneath. He didn’t report to the general manager – the one you say was in charge of player decisions. His function – baseball matters – reported to the President.

The entire article in which Alderson says those words about Rigney is again attached so to confirm I didn’t make this up.

I never disputed that Rigney was involved in the decision making I said he wasn’t the one making those decisions. He was involved. Big difference. In Baseball decision making is done by the GM and VP of baseball operations in regards to baseball personnel and he was that person. How many times do I have to repeat he same damn thing. Show me someting linking Rigney making the call on a trade, signing or draft pick. Saying he was involved does not mean he was making the decisions.

That’s like saying Omar’s assitants who were invloved in the decision making process were the actual ones making the decisions. Special assistants which is what Rigney was do not make the decisions. They are involved in them. You have no idea how the front office structure of a baseball team works

“So you see, I have professional knowledge of how an executive structure works, how responsibilities are delegated, what it takes for one to get to be an office. Your contention that Sandy just stepped right into the job with no professional knowledge or experience and took over the role of making player personnel decisions has no merit”

What professional knowledge do you have that compares to professional sports? Please I’m dying to hear this. Your baseball knowledge is sorry to be so blunt, is lacking.

Also, none of these executives got to the position they were without decades of experience in their fields leading up to their titles. Same holds true with Sandy Alderson – he had decades of experience and education in the fields of legal and finance – the qualifications necessary to do the job of running an operation. And that was his function.

Actually one can come in as an outsider without experience and do the functions of a professional sports GM, Sandy wasn’t the first he won’t be the last. He was the first to use statistical analysis. Why the hell do you think he’s one of the most respected executives in the game? Because of what he accomplished as an outsider. Just because you don’t believe it can happen doesn’t mean it didn’t and it’s still happening. Do you need me to run off the list of names that are currently working as GM’s and Presidents of MLB clubs? Scroll up. Those guys all came into baseball with no professional backround. All those links show how and what went on and how he accomplished what he did. There’s two people that don’t want to deal with facts and unfortunately they both post here everyday.

And that interview you posted showed absolutely nothing. Again another waste of time article that proves nothing about what he did in Oakland. Did you even bother to read the articles I posted that explain everything? I think it’s hilarious how you took out of that interview that he couldn’t have been the one making the personnel decisions. Really hilarious the things you try and pass off as proof. You should do a comedy routine you’re quite funny.lol. Nice try though A for effort

Inferring on your part is not providing evidence of one doing the evaluation and contemplation. Articles that say he helped build the Oakland clubs have as much meaning as the one I attached which said the exact words about Rigney – which is why I attached it – to point out how one can’t judge by what is said about a person but what the specific acts are.

And so again, here are the words of Sandy Alderson talking about Rigney:

“When you talk about people who have contributed to our success, you have to single out Bill Rigney. His contributions have been enormous. He has been involved in every one of our player acquisitions since I came here in 1982. I’ve watched 600 or 700 games with Bill, and it’s been an education.”

“He has been involved in every one of our player acquisitions”? Within any organization, decision making for each specific area is delegated to a certain function within the flow chart and then coordinated with the departments underneath. He didn’t report to the general manager – the one you say was in charge of player decisions. His function – baseball matters – reported to the President.

The entire article in which Alderson says those words about Rigney is again attached so to confirm I didn’t make this up.

http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/It-Musta-Been-Rigged-Bill-Rigney-dead-at-83-2949823.php#page-1

Now about my own personal experience, for twenty years I worked directly for a Vice President as his assistant and coordinator. I saw how he had specific responsibilities. I knew what the other Vice Presidents were doing and their functions were of different natures. Each had it’s own set of mission goals. They did not conflict with the other, though often had to be coordinated with the other (i.e., our capital budget, which I coordinated, had to be developed upon the requests of other Vice Presidents and then presented to Executive Vice President for Finance. He would then give us an idea of how much capital we had to work with. We then trimmed down the requests based on necessity, urgency of time frame, ability to phase out the work over longer periods making it less costly for fiscal years, etc.).

Also, none of these executives got to the position they were without decades of experience in their fields leading up to their titles. Same holds true with Sandy Alderson – he had decades of experience and education in the fields of legal and finance – the qualifications necessary to do the job of running an operation. And that was his function.

So you see, I have professional knowledge of how an executive structure works, how responsibilities are delegated, what it takes for one to get to be an office. Your contention that Sandy just stepped right into the job with no professional knowledge or experience and took over the role of making player personnel decisions has no merit.

In fact, here is a very revealing interview he had while still working for the commissioner which shows where his extensive expertise and talent is – business – and that his desire was to continue working with “operations” (when asked about becoming the Commissioner):

http://www.sportsradioservice.com/interviews/interview2.html

What you fail to grasp is Sandy doesn’t run the evaluations even to this day!!!

He may decide which of his advisors gets his way but it’s not Sandy saying this player over that one!

Which is why Harvey is ready but he not ready then he’s ready again!
Which is why We are Buyers no we are Sellers no we are builders!

Sandyu isnt deciding a thing even to this day he is just flying by the seat of his pants which is all he has ever done after Eisenhardt left and Rigney stopped giving him advice!

So your so full of shit it isn’t funny!

Yes precicely our links are from 1982 that when Martin was fired and Eisenhardt took over his GM duties! And what were those duties?
he ran player personnel! Which Rigney now was going to consult Eisenhardt on. So Rigney Eisenhardt pick whoever it is you want out of those two…THEY decided! Not Sandy!

Your link was 1982, 1982. Again I’m talking about 1983. The link shows his 20 most significant moves. Other links show he drafted Big Mac and Terry Steinbach in 1984. Plenty of proof right there. I don’t need to waste any more time going through my recycle bin.

just more proof that you know your full of shit but just can’t let it go!

If you report directly to the president then your equal to or ABOVE the vice president!
Power structure is based on access to the boss!
Since they both had equal access you might be able to prove they were equal in power…
Wghich means in the end Eisenhardt made the decisions and all Sandy and Rigney did was make suggestions And we know Eisenhardt trusted Rigney more than Sandy because Rigney picked the next manager after Martin not Sandy!

We have evidence that Rigney was charged with rebuilding the development and baseball side of the organization.
We have showed proof that Eisenhardt took over the Player Evals from Martin when he was fired! And he did whatever Rigney told him to do. Then he told Sandy to go and do it!

Now you find us an example where Rigney said do A and Sandy said no screw you I want B and did so!

If thats what your basing your case on your Case is thinner than a neutrino!

And all of them are articles posted long after the time in question!

We posted you articles FROM THAT TIME that said Eisenhardt took over GM DUTIES from Martin in regards to player personnel and Rigney reported to him so he could make those decisions.
The rest is all saying Sandy got things done but thats because his Boss ordered him to get it done!

Just as a gofer goes and gets you coffee thats light and sweet!
He doesn’t decide how you want it you tell him what to get and he goes and gets it!

You got nothing in all of those links other than Sandy was the guy who got it done but nothing about who decided.
We already established who made the decisions!

Doesn’t say anything about Rigney ordering Sandy to make any of these moves. It says Sandy made them. That’s plenty of proof that you don’t have a real rebuttal for. Just agenda driven conjecture.

I didn’t ignore his title. He was special asst to the president in baseball matters. You tried to make a claim that he made the decisions and Alderson didn’t. You said Alderson handled the legal end. That wasn’t the case clearly. He could’ve continued to handle the legal end and wouldn’t have been elevated to the GM position and VP of baseball Ops if that were the case. Eisenhardt remained the teams president and legal counsel. he was the one who put Alderson in charge. Rigney was on the broadcast booth in 83 and 84 how could he possibly handle GM responsibilities. That’s like sayng Keith Hernandez could while broadcasting Met games. He could consult though as a broadcaster.

Nor in 1990:
Assistant to the Executive Vice President, Baseball Matters

And that his title didn’t change until 1991:
Assistant, Baseball Matters

Also, there is no mention that the owner, Walter Hass, stepped down as executive vice president after 1989 and there was only then one Vice President to report to.

And third, Fonzie, your contention is that Sandy made the decisions from the get-go, now you’re presenting evidence based on 1989? What about the years Rigney served as the Assistant to the President.

My contention was and still is that Sandy made the decisions. I showed this because if Rigney was the one who built the 89 WS champs as you claim then what is he doing as Aldersons special assistant? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

For somebody who understands corporate management, it’s amazing how one glosses over those three slightly important factors. You would be politely shown out the door of the executive offices backing your argument with that type of evidence.

Um no I wouldn’t. I have shown you plenty of various articles the first time you and Metsie started with this BS and you refused to acknowledge it so there was nothing wrong with my evidence. For the record, I have never been fired from a job in my life. I left on my own accord and I’m my own boss now.

One way to settle this – if somebody has the courage. Email Alderson and ask him who was responsible – not for authorizing – but for doing the legwork that led to the decisions on player personnel, draft picks, etc. Did Sandy decide who he wanted or did those underneath him come up with suggested recommendations and options instead? And if he was the one who determined what he wanted and sought it, ask him when he first started doing that – and what then was Bill Rigney doing all the time?

The entire staff is responsible for the legwork just like every other MLB team. Input from scouts and assistants are discussed in meetings and it’s up to the GM to make the final decision based on that input. I don’t know whats the issue here frankly. Rigney was the consultant. That’s what he was doing.

Does Sandy scout the players? Of course not, no GM does. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t make the final decision on draft picks. Most GM’s only stick around for the first few rounds of the draft. After that it’s usually the scouting director and and assistants.

There are tons of links showing who made the decisions. I can’t find one linking Rigney from 83-97.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=12389&fb_source=message

The above link tells when he took an interest in sabermetrics and baseball, long before he joined Oakland.

http://www.nctimes.com/sports/baseball/professional/mlb/padres/article_46bd16d6-ecc9-5caa-a030-893e3f6bf3e8.html

This guy Bill Guyton sure knew who was responisble for it all.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/sandy-alderson-s-20-most-significant-moves-
1.2411013#1

Why doesn’t it say 20 most significant moves Rigney made? Because he didn’t.

http://www.sfexaminer.com/sports/teams/as/2011/09/general-manager-billy-beane-thrifty-no-genius

The above mentions Alderson and Branch Rickey sharing the same beliefs and also why writers and people like yourself scorn sabermetrics. Because you don’t understand it.
I have more but it’s just a waste of time because you’ll come up with some more BS to refute it but facts are facts.