24
2012
Lucas Duda Optioned To Triple-A Buffalo
An article by Craig Lerner
As expected, the Mets have announced that they have optioned Lucas Duda to Triple-A Buffalo.
Duda was batting .241/.335/.391 in in 89 games with a dozen home runs and 44 RBI. Duda drew 42 walks and struck out 94 times in 307 at-bats this season, almost a third of the time.
The big guy was mired in a horrendous slump in July that forced Terry Collins to start using other options in right field. His defense in the outfield cost the Mets a few games this month as well.
This clears the way for Matt Harvey who is now active and with the Mets.
Original Post 8:00 AM
Following last night’s 8-2 loss to the Washington Nationals, reliever Pedro Beato was optioned to Triple-A Buffalo by the Mets, and reliever Manny Acosta was recalled from Triple-A Buffalo to replace him om the roster.
For Beato, Monday’s meltdown was the second time in a week that Beato cost the Mets a game. Last Tuesday Beato uncorked a game-ending bases-loaded wild pitch in another 10th inning loss to the Nationals.
In seven games with the Mets this season, Beato posted a 10.38 ERA, having allowed five earned runs in 4 1/3 innings.
Meanwhile Acosta tossed two scoreless innings Monday night for Buffalo and since he was demoted there he has posted a 2.28 ERA in 17 appearances spanning 28 innings.
The Mets still need to clear room for Matt Harvey’s activation today and there have been strong indications Lucas Duda will be that casualty.
Before last night’s game, comments by Sandy Alderson led many to believe that Duda would be optioned including Gary Cohen and Ron Darling who mentioned it a few times throughout the broadcast.
About the Author: Craig Lerner
I'm a data analyst and researcher for a leading news agency who loves life and is hooked on the Mets. I love following the Amateur Draft and have a particular fondness for the Mets Minor Leagues who I follow each day. Give me a cold beer, a summer day, and a Mets game, and I'm good to go.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 23 | 18 | .561 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 19 | .548 | 0.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 22 | .476 | 3.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 23 | .410 | 6.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 31 | .262 | 12.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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According to Amazin’ Avenue the Mets have recalled Manny Acosta. Yes, “THAT” Manny Acosta: 1-2, 11.86 ERA, 22 IP, 35 Hits, 29 Earned Runs, and a .361 OBA. I guess they think that since he’s mastered AAA hitters that he’s “fixed” and ready to come back. Really, they’re just exchanging kerosene for gasoline to throw on late inning fires. A big “thanks” to the front office for doing such a great job of adding quality depth over the winter.
Well, as Sonny and Cher used to sing “And the Beat(ings) Goes On”.
Lmao…I couldnt have said it better 86′
BRAVO SIR….
BRAVO
hey craig, I thought somehow this was a good Rule V pick up by your lord sandy alderson no??
there has not been a single player i can point out that have been good for us since sandy has been here. I mean, if you wanna use a back up hitter in hairston go ahead be my guest.. But i can not mention one single player.. sorry, the man has been an ABSOLUTE FAILURE. But hey, as long as this blog have guys writing articles about how great he is and that somehow he had a good day he’d still be getting a pass..
In almost two years Hairston, a backup who got hot for a few weeks is it?!?!. I can’t even argue with false god supporters anymore. the lord has been so pathetic.
Amazin, that’s nothing… You’re boy jesseP admited to me that josh hefner was a good pick up by sandy alderson… that should tell you all you need to know about the support he gets here by some peole
That’s not supporting Alderson… that’s just saying that he thought Hefner was a goo move…. Why do you have to put a spin on everything?
Connor, I still stand by my statement too.
See some people think the only “good” moves can be when you sign a guy to $60/4 year deals.
Hefner was found off the scrap heap, just like every MLB team tries to do with players. He’s a 26 year old with limited MLB experience and Toronto, Philly, and Washington he gave the Mets solid starts or long relief when they badly needed it. Also had solid relief appearances against the Yankees and Cubs.
Hefner is a depth find. That’s all. Nobody is saying he’s a future cy young or some amazing talent. But when you need depth from your minors, he’s a solid addition in that department because he CAN and HAS given you good outings.
That’s all I was saying. He’s just a nice pickup when he was on nobody’s radar here.
Hi Jessep,
Hefner does seem to have the potential to do something and he was a good pick up by the front office. Obtaining Heffner was overlooked but guess that is what happens when one is so used to so many blips on the radar screen.
Quintanilla worked out ok. No telling how much the O’s paid…very minor though.
He’s made plenty of smaller moves that have helped this team. He hasn’t gone out and traded for a superstar.
Plenty???????? How many is plenty? 1? 2? 5? 10? Please tell us the plenty moves. Not all obviously…There are so many I’m sure. And bringing up guys that another GM brought into the org doesn’t count.
Alderson has handled the farm system very well. He’s brought a bit of a culture change to the system and has made it respectable. He”s made some great moves for the future, such as holding out for Zack Wheeler in the Carlos Beltran trade. Instead of dumping Beltran the first chance he got, he waited it out and got one of the best pitching prospects in baseball.
I don’t understand how anyone can be SO angry at him. He’s making moves for the future. This team is a long way away from being a playoff team. You want him to be Omar Minaya and make ridiculous and desparate moves every year?
Of all the fanbases, you would think that considering all the frustration over the past 50 years, the Mets fanbase would be one of the more patient. I guess that’s not the case… We all (well, maybe the rational fans) knew coming into this season that it would be a development year. A year in which we would give a chance to some young guys while also waiting for Wheeler, Harvey, and others to come up in 2013. So now hat the team played pretty well in the first half we have to do a 180 and trade the future for a bunch of win-now pieces?
I know that many commenters here have been against Alderson since last year. I’ve been a little frustrated recently as well. But I know that he has the future in mind and we shoulld too. Why can’t we all just be patient and at least give him a chance??
I believe in a prior post u said you are 15 years old.Not knocking youth because it is a wonderful thing.You do not seem to understand that the Mets are operating in a big market.They charge astromical prices for tickets , food and parking like a big market team but can only get players off the clearance rack??This is my biggest beef.Bringing back Acosta is a complete joke as is Sandy Alderson
Look, I’m not stupid. I’m 15 but I’m just as smart as anyone here. Don’t bring age into this because I really don’t like it. You can’t dismiss my opinions because of my age. In fact, I’m being more rational than most Mets fans are being right now…
But back to your point: Yeah, why hasn’t Sandy done anything with this team?? We are only a .500 team, but we had a decent first half, so we should go ALL IN. We should get Street, Upton, Hamels, Greinke, A-Rod, Ruth, Mays…! We don’t need a farm system! Let’s just get rid of everything! Who cares about the future?…….
I’m just saying be patient. We have a bright future ahead of us. Sandy is just trying not to blow it.
Connor: I find your comments among more of the level headed and insightful ones on here.
Keep up the good work.
It’s only opinions by most all on here anyway. No one really has a clue what is going on behind closed doors. It’s all speculation right now.
Connoe — You are on the money. Level headed. Fair. No agenda. Keep up the good work.
II never said you were stupid.If you post on blogs you need to calm down a little bit.I have been a Met fan for 46 years.I find it a little comical a 15 year old is preaching patience on this website.Just write a rant or an opinion like everyone else.We are not the enemy.Everybody is pissed because they are tired of watching the Mets become irrelevant by August 1.forget the patience nonsense
Gary S. — We’ve all waited many years. I’ve been a Mets fan since their inception, which is a bit longer than all but a few MMO fans who post. I don’t find the Mets success a life and death issue. It’s a great pastime, but it’s just that. Let’s chill out. No one is the enemy within MMO. Considering that there are thirty teams who want the same prize and we’ve won the big one a couple of times, Connor’s advice rings true: Patience.
you need to realize that despite being in the biggest market and charging high prices, they are not going to spend money because of their failed business ventures and poor baseball decisions.
The Mets are going to have a sub 100 million dollar payroll until they start turning a profit from baseball again and then they can slowly increase payroll.
Sandy was not brought here to win games or be a genius, he was brought here as condition on receiving a loan that would keep the Wilpons as the team’s owners. Sandy is here to make the Mets profitable again, which means spending as little money as he possibly can while still putting a watchable product on the field.
It sucks, but’s its the reality of the situation. It might take 3 years or it might take 13 years, but the Mets are not going to be spending money like we were used to under Omar and if that means the Mets lose games because of it, well that’s what the Wilpons want…
It’s good to see such a young Met fan like Conner, who I believe is 15 years old have common sense. I think it’s hilarious how some people think Omar left a core group of players that just needed a little tweaking to put us over the top.
The franchise was an absolute mess and the joke of all MLB when Omar left and people expected Alderson to come here and wave a magic wand and “POOF” a championship nucleous would be in place.
Nobody can deny the fact that his bullpen moves have failed mightily but at the same time why don’t you ask why the farm system hasn’t produced one reliable arm in the bullpen. The fact that we have to go out and buy a new bullpen every year is an absolute joke.
Omar and his scouting staff had 6 drafts to develope a halfway decent bullpen and the best they did was Bobby “Don’t let me pitch the 9th: Parnell.
And now we hear the whiners out in full force because he hasn’t added any good players, just cheap crap. True he added cheap crap but tell us why he had to add CHEAP crap. He only had to cut 50 million from the payroll. But hey lets pretend that didn’t exist. Either way it’s easy to go out and get big time players when you’re cutting 50 million off the books right?
And lets have a look at the roster that everybody thinks Omar did such a good job constructing . The core that people think if Sandy had just did a good job fixing the bullpen would be in contention. Lol. Fkn hilarious.
Catcher = LMFAO. Not one of them are MLB talent.
First Base = supposed to be our power hitter of the future. LH Dave Kingman, better glove.
Second Base = LH bat off the bench. Not an everyday MLB player. Nice bat, no power.
Shortstop = Ding ding ding. We got something. Yay!
Third base = Possible MVP, Great rebound off three off years.
Left field = If not for Hairston we’d be better off leaving unmanned.
Center field = Combined Kirk and Torres have outproduced Pagan but still below avg
RF = Terrible defense, can’t hit lefties. Now at AAA.
SP = very good first half, unlikely able to sustain and they haven’t.
Bullpen = What a fkn joke. Went from bad to worse. Bes t(only) homegrown reliever Bobby Parnell. Again What a fkn joke.
Bench = Hard to say cause the bench starts and the regulars are sometimes on the bench.
The holes on this team are so deep I can tickle a Chinamans feet. Even if he did a good job with the bullpen which he didn’t he absolutely sucked and no stats anybody can show me can prove otherwise (Jessep) the team was still no where near being a contending team. Anybody thinking that Sandy is just sitting on his ass waiting for something to happen is really wearing Met sunglasses.
We are full of one dimensional talents with not a lot of help on the horizon in terms of position players. Who are we trading to and for what to help not just in 2012 but beyond? I’d love to hear it.
I wish the internet was around when Frank Cashen was the GM. Everybody would’ve claimed he sat on his ass too. After all he didn’t start making trades until his 3rd year into his tenure. And we sucked until his 4th year in. And before somebody chimes in with Cashen took over a worse farm system, remember that the 86 team had 4 members that Cashen inherited from Joe McDonald and a few were traded for Keith Hernandez and Gary Carter. Bottomline we are still a very mediocre team.
“why don’t you ask why the farm system hasn’t produced one reliable arm in the bullpen”
Maybe because it has been too busy filling the Starting Rotation?
Gee, Niese, Dickey, Harvey …you know the guy that everyone wants to wait for before we start trying to get better?
Dickey came from our farm system? Wow when did we draft him? I follow the draft religiously and I must’ve missed that pick.
Which one of those guys pitches in relief? Do we have anybody except Parnell in the pen homegrown? No! Why couldn’t he do?
The Braves always pick after us and look at their pen and their rotation. They did both, picked after us so why couldn’t we?
BTW we picked Nathan Vineyard right before Giancarlo Stanton who was picked right in front of our own Scott Moviel, one pick right in front of Freddie Freeman. We could’ve had a power hitting RF and an actual 1Bman who can hit. Instead we got 2 guys who are both out of baseball. Yeah Omar was a draft guru. Man a few tweaks here and there from Sabergoon Sandy and we’d be in the hunt.
Yeah, like we are the ONLY team to pass on good players in the draft.
Maybe if we’re talking about the NFL draft, you would have a point. but in the MLB? You can say the same thing about every team.
Yeah but other teams hit on impact players. When do we????? 3 in the last 2 decades. C’mon Vinny wake up. Stop defending the horrendous job this franchise has done developing players.
No, you come on. It’s just ridiculous to say this franchise has done a horrendous job developing players. How many teams have the ability to fill on an entire lineup of homegrown players? Not many I can think of. And while they aren’t all perfect players, a lot of those guys do have very bright futures.
Maybe they aren’t “impact” players yet. But that’s because they are just STARTING their major league careers – Why can’t anyone understand that?How many young players other than Harper and Trout, are big time impact players in their 1st or 2nd year starting? Not many – So you need to have patience with the young talent we have,.
other teams picked in the top 10 more than we did!
Or picked before we did for most of those years like 1999, 2000 2006-2008
More than Half the time we picked ahead of anyone you can name who picked an impact player!
And who is to say we didn’t pick any?
Ike Davis hits for average he is an impact player.
Rueben Tejada keeps doing what he is doing he will be an impact player.
Kirk early in the year before he slumped was on the road to being an impact player!
Harvey could very well be an Impact Player!
David Wright IS an Impact player!
Jose Reyes is too!
Guess you just like players and think they worth more for doing the same thing but wearing someone else’s jersey!
No, you come on. It’s just ridiculous to say this franchise has done a horrendous job developing players. How many teams have the ability to fill on an entire lineup of homegrown players? Not many I can think of. And while they aren’t all perfect players, a lot of those guys do have very bright futures.
No it’s 100%n accurate to say the Mets have done a horrendous job developing players. Impact players. 3 position players in 2 decades and not one stud pitcher is doing a horrendous job developing players.
So we put 9 homegrown players on the field at once. That’s good. Which one of those players are impact players? Maybe Ike has the chance but he’s not close to one and neither is anybody else. It’s not about patience. I’m all in for a total rebuld so I have all the patience in the world but I don’t see any big time talent, a player to build your franchise around. A Joey Votto, A Robby Cano, A pre injured Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, Ethier, Kemp, etc… Lots of star players but the Mets have deliverd 3 to their fanbase in 20 plus years and not one stud pitcher to anchor a staff.
And don’t you think every team has a bunch of talented players? Or is it just us. that’s ridiculous to keep sayng we have a lot of promising guys. We don’t have anybody that looks to be a franchise player. Murphy is a nice hitter, does nothing else. Duda is a DH. He can’t play defense no matter where you put him. Kirk is a 4th OF or a platoon guy. Tejada is the only well rounded talent to come up thorugh our system. We have a shit load of one dimensional players, most of whom I’vw watched throughout the minors.
Funny how you say Freemans number are meh, but they dwarf everybody on our team except Wright, No other Met regular has an OPS near over 800 like Freeman does and he’s 251 hitter for his 2 year career vs LHP, he’s not an automatic out like some of our LH. Ike for instance is 232 and don’t even look at Kirk and Duda’s numbers against LHP and I could use the same argument that you have with the Braves staff being very talented but struggling. What that only counts for the Met players. They are struggling but talented but the Brave guys are just overrated and flamed out.
Maybe Ike, Duda, Kirk and the rest of our struggling guys are overrated too. You’re already saying that the majority of their arms have busted or flamed out. But our guys are still promising. All I know is they have been out producing us for 20 years now and they pick after we do every year. I’d rather have less quantity and more quality.
And btw I agree with being patient. I’m not suggesting to throw Ike to the curb. I’m saying 1B is now a question mark. It’s no longer a locked down position. We haveno choice but to stay with him. I am saying that Duda isn’t a good fit in the NL whether or not it’s LF or RF. He was a horrible 1Bman in the minors too. Murphy is another guy who can hit but can’t do anything else. He’s not a 2Bman. He never will be adequate enough. He has no range at all.
I’m all for waiting on these kids and keep trying to develope them. It’s not me that’s saying that Alderson needs to go out an bring in a big bat like Upton. We don’t have a core in place yet to start adding those types of pieces yet unless it’s a free agent and we don’t give up pieces. So you don’t have to tell me I need to be patient.
Oh ok, now we are going back 20 years, instead of the just looking young players developed by the previous FO. Who the hell cares about 20 years ago now? Why do we have to go back so far in time to prove a point? What the Mets did in 1992 is irrelevant to now.
“A Joey Votto, A Robby Cano, A pre injured Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, Ethier, Kemp, etc”
I bet when a lot of those players came up, some people we’re saying the same thing about them that your saying about the young guys we have. “joey votto is never going to be a an Albert Pujols or a Lance Berkman. Andre Either is never going to be a Carlos Beltran”.
You can say that about EVERY player that just comes up, that “they will never be a Matt Kemp”. Every single player that has come up(with the exception of Harper and Trout) I can say the same thing about them. I’ll just pick a rookie at random, Zack Cozart? He’ll never be a Derek Jeter. Yonder Alonso? He’ll never be a Albert Pujols – See how unfair that is? Instead of just evaluating their talent, I’m putting them up against the top players of the game and dismissing them because I don’t feel their talent stacks up against them – And of course pretty much every rookie isn’t gonna stack up against a Matt Kemp or Joey Votto – So it’s just so unfair what your doing.
…And with Freeman, his average against lefties this year is .236. Also has a .305 OBP against. Yep, so some people here would be calling him a platoon player. His OPS is just one point over .800, compare that to Ike Davis career OPS of .775 – i don’t see a big difference there. I’m also gonna say the same thing about him, that your saying about our guys too – “he’ll never be a Joey Votto”. See how unfair that is?
My point with the Braves is I’m holding them to the same standard that your holding our guys to. I was just doing the same thing to them, that you were doing to us……..to show you can pick apart every teams young talent and find all their flaws.
I thought this was funny because of the discussion we’re having, on baseball reference they have something called “Similarity Scores”, and you know what player was the most similar to Ike Davis? Freddie Freeman.
Yes we’re going back 20 years because we’ve had the same owner who’s had the same philosophy of not spending on the draft except once which was last year in 2011 but that didn’t last long cause I’m sure you know by now we let half our picks walk and most were willing to accept slot money. So it is rellevent. Again until our guys reach their potential they are not impact players.
Joey Votto, A Robby Cano, A pre injured Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, Ethier, Kemp, etc”
“I bet when a lot of those players came up, some people we’re saying the same thing about them that your saying about the young guys we have. “joey votto is never going to be a an Albert Pujols or a Lance Berkman. Andre Either is never going to be a Carlos Beltran”.
Actually those guys were expected to be star players, all of them. Whether or not fans were saying this or that guy is never going to be Albert Pujols or Carlos Beltran is irrelevent to the point I’m making. The point I’m making is we have only produced 3 players like that in the last 20 + years. And until the new wave of Mets potentials actually become impact players nothing has changed on that front.
The franchise has still done a horrendous job producing, excuse me Impact players. I don’t care if they have potential. Only Ike even has the potential to be on that list and I frankly don’t see the talent in Ike to be more than just a 250-270 hitter with power. Not until he fixes the major holes in his swing. I don’t ever see him being a guy that hits 330 40 HR 135 RBI. Joey Votto was thought to be that before he stepped foot onto Cinergy Field. He was expected to be that type of player. He has quickly become that player. Kemp, Cano. We just don’t produce those types of talents. Right now we don’t have anybody in our farm that projects to be anywhere near a Matt Camp. Nimmo is compared to Paul O’Neill. I’d sign for that right now.
So you can sing the praises all you want about the Mets farm system and their potential but until they produce a player we can build our franchise around I’m not changing my stance on the matter. The jury is still out. I’ll only give you that Omar’s staff has done a better job than the previous 3 GM’s providing the farm with decent players. Still a lot of one dimensional 1B/LF/ DH types. Duda,Satin, Lutz, Murphy and some of our better prospects like Flores and Valdespin don’t even have a position. And I don’t know where you cam up with we have a deep farm system. We don’t have a lot of position players. We have a lot of arms. We don’t have a deep farm system We have an improving farm system.
And the Freeman and Ike comparisons are probably due to their overall career numbers being close. But Freeman this year is having a much better year and is nearly 3 years younger. Ike has better hands but both are statues at 1B. I’d take Freeman ove Ike Davis.
That is not true that they were all expected to be stars – Andre Etiher was never an elite prospect. He was a good prospect, but never elite. Same with Utley. The highest they were ever ranked by baseball America was 81 and 89 – Just as a comparison, Jon Niese was rated number 77 by them, and nobody ever says anything about him being a star.
So, it’s not true that they were all expected to be stars. And saying Votto was expected to be the player that he has become would be like if Matt Harvey one day became the best pitcher in baseball, and then we all would say that we EXPECTED him to be the best pitcher in baseball – Which isn’t true. Votto was rated number 44 prospect by BA, and Harvey 54. So, their talent level in the minors would be similar. And nobody is expecting Harvey to be the best pitcher in baseball(well, at least before last night they weren’t, lol).
All of these guys I’ve mentioned were highly touted prospects in their organizations. It doesn’t matter if they were ranked 15th 78th or whatever. They were expected to be excellent players. Some like Votto, Kemp and Howard were thought of as potential superstars and guys like Ethier, Utley and Cano were expected to be stars.
When you get compared to Rod Carew which is who the Yanks were comparing Cano to that pretty much says they’re looking at you being a star. Just like the Mets did with Wright and Reyes. I follow the minors so I remember their teams being very high on them.
I don’t consider Ethier to be a superstar BTW. A Star but not a superstar. I didn’t say the Reds expected Votto to be the best LH hitter in the game but they were looking at him as a game changing offensive force.
Harvey doesn’t have to be the best pitcher in the game but he is billed as a solid number 2 so I’d say he’s expected to be an excellent pitcher. Niese has expectations of being a very solid #3 and some say he could reach his potential of a #2 starter one day.
But none of this has anything to do with my original point which was the Mets poor job producing players for the better part of 2 decades. So they’re starting to do a better job but the jusry will be out until somebody does reach their potential. Just because they’re finally putting more of an emphasis on developing players doesn’t wipe out what’s gone on here for many years. I’m also worried that we’re going back in that old direction since we let half our picks go unsigned. If they’re resting their laurels in the last 2 draft classes and last 2 years of IFA signings then I think they’re making a huge mistake.
And what’s this obsession with Freddie Freeman? What makes him better than the talent we have? His numbers are kinda “meh”…..I bet if we had him, everyone would give up on him too, because he hasn’t instantly become a impact player, and “can’t hit lefties”. You would be saying the same thing about him that your saying about the players we have now.
“The Braves always pick after us and look at their pen and their rotation.”
And why does everyone overrate the Braves rotation? Their starters ranked 22nd in the league in ERA – Yes, you read that right, 22nd. And the Mets? They are 7th.
The majority of their arms have busted – Jurrjens flamed out – Minor has a ERA well over 5. Julio Teheran is really struggling in the minors. Hanson has been disappointing, and if you look at his numbers, two of our homegrown guys Niese and Gee, have out-pitched him this season.
So, knock it off with the Braves rotation already!!!!!! Their rotation has actually been one of the worst in the league.
He was promoted from where again?
Who did we trade for to get him on the MLB rposter?
I guess Wheeler isn’t part of Sandy’s Farm system either if you think that way!
OH GOOD now you can’t give him credit for Wheeler either!
I Guess we will just have to judge him based on ramirez and Torres then! LOL
Wheeler is not part of our farm system, he was traded for like Ron Darling and Walt Terrell were. Dickey was a minor league free agant and I’ve given credit to Minaya as his best pickup as GM. So what’s the point again?
My point is where is Sandy’s Impact player?
We’ll have to wait and see who becomes an impact player, it’s only 13 months since his 1st draft. His farm system in Oakland produced more impact players than our last 4 GM’s combined so I have confidence that we’ll have 1 or 2 eventually from our 1st 2 drafts with him. Especially with Chad McDonald running our draft last year.
ding ding ding. I think we have a nomination for best comment of the year?
Spot on and well said.
Did frank cashen say that there was no point in trading for Hernandez because it could help that season?
I think not!
He fixed things as often as he could!
he didn’t wait until the season was on the line or before they were in competition for a division before he made moves to improve his team!
And he certainly didn’t moneyball his way through the season HOPING something good came from it!
George foster was one of his first free agent signngs…One of the richest in baseball at the time.
Didn’t work out but at least he was trying to win some games along the way!
Did Frank Cashen trade for veterans in year 2 or was Keith acquired in the middle of year 4? The one guy he traded for in his 3rd offseason was against his judgement and ordered by Nelson Doubleday, George Foster. Cashen didn’t start acquiring the veterans to go with the youth until 83-86. Keith, Carter, Tuefel, Ojeda. In year 2 which was 1981, Cashen did not bring in any big names either so lets stop pretending he was more active and Cashen didn’t have to worry about slashing payroll. You have absolutely no idea what’s going on behind closed doors.
Frank cashen went and got vets in Year one!
George Foster and Dave Kingman!
Kingman and Foster were horrible. Kingman in the 2nd offseason and Foster in the 3rd. Both sucked you would be writing posts about how Cashen sucked ass for bringing those guys in and he didn’t even want to bring in Foster that was Doubleday wanting to sell tickets.
Yes they were!
My Point exactly!
I’m not the one holding Cashen up as GOD compared to Omar, you are!
The only thing you can credit Cashen with really is the drafting of Strawberry and Gooden….
Where did we pick when we got them again?
How many top 5 Picks did Omar have to get these impact players you claim he should have again?
How many top 5 picks have we had in the last 10 years? 20 Years?
And you blame this organization and the Owners for not developing Impact players?
You don’t need to draft in the top 5 to get impact players. Joey Votto was a 2nd rounder, so was Beltran, we passed on him btw, Albert Pujols was a 13th rounder, Mike Piazza was a 63rd rounder. David Wright was the 38th overall pick. Hundreds of Allstars have come out of rounds after the 1st we just so happen to never be one of those teams that don’t come away with them.
And please don’t compare Omar to Cashen. Cashen was and still is the best GM in franchise history. And Cashen’s drafts produced a lot more than Strawberry and Gooden. Could’ve had Clemens to go along with Doc but the cheap ass Wilpons didn’t want to give him his signing bonus.
Sure you can get impact players in the 2nd round….
But you have to sign them don’t you?
Yes we have to sign them. We did last year, we didn’t sign one of the two this year. When I find out more info as to why we didn’t sign half our picks I’m going to write about it here. We followed up a very nice draft last year with letting half of our picks walk this year over $$$. Back to the old Wilpon way of doing business after one year of splurging on the draft for the first time since the Wilpons bought the team.
So which one from last year is an impact player Fonzie….let us all know!
Go On record so we can all laugh you out of here when you get exposed on your prediction!
I’ll repeat the same thing as in the other post. Time will tell who becomes the impact player but you have a better chance at hitting on one when you draft based on a players talent and not because he’s an easy sign. Last year we took a decent amount of players that teams passed on because they were said to be tough to sign. Like Phil Evans in the 15th tround who we paid a franchise record 600K for a 15th rounder. We’ve never spent that much for anybody higher than the 2nd round. We took Fulmer in the comp round and paid him overslot money to forego college when other teams didn’t think he’d sign. This year we wouldn’t give our 2nd rounder 680K and that’s how we’ve operated in years prior to 2011 which is why we’ve done a poor job developing star players.
You know what Mets Fans need patience with? Our young players. It seems as though the second on of young players struggle we dismiss them and give up on them.
Everyone says now we have something in Tejada(and rightfully so), but I guarantee you, the second he struggles(or if he hits let’s say .260 or so next year), they’ll run him out of town.
Ike Davis for example, he’s STILL a very talented player. The potential is still there. You know,despite for how bad he’s been this year, he’s still on a pace to hit over 20HR and close to 100 RBI. A lot of young players struggle in their 2nd year starting(remember Heyward last year?), so I’m not gonna give up on him – I still have faith that he will be a big piece in our future.
Daniel Murphy may not be a perfect fit for this team, and a perfect player overall….But how about giving the man some God Damn credit for crying out loud? He hit .320 last year, and he’s over .300 AGAIN this year… and he is also doubles machine – I believe he has 10th highest average in the MLB the last two years. He’s also done a much better job at 2nd than I thought, he’s still not great out there, but he’s still doing better there than I thought…..A guy that can hit like he does is CERTAINLY a starter in the league. Maybe in the future he isn’t for us, but he is going to be starting somewhere.
And I think sending Duda down is just a knee jerk reaction. He was just in a slump, and I believe he would have eventually broken out of it. He could have finished the season with over 20HR and maybe a .260 average if they stuck with him – Which isn’t bad for your 1st year starting. But anyway, I believe this is just a minor setback for him, and he’ll develop into a good power hitter….And It’s just ridiculous to say he can’t hit lefties just by his 1st full year starting – You know how many good left handed hitters struggled against lefties in their 1st year? TONS. So there’s just another example of where we need to be “patient”.
Then you have a guy like Kirk, who’s not 100% ready, but will be a player that can give you a little bit of everything – Some speed, some pop, some defense – He’s going to be a very nice player for us, you just gotta be “patient” and stick with them during the though times.
I think this just goes to show that you can pick apart and find flaws with EVERY young player with the exception of Mike Trout and Bryce Harper. You just have to stick with the young guys through the dark times because the talent is still there, and if your patient, their talent will eventually turn into results.
BTW, sorry for the “t agee” post. lol.
Thats because they want the GM to run this team like they run thier Fantsy league!
They forget that replacing a guy on thier Fantasy Lineup doesn’t add the rust of sitting on a bench and not playing to that player.
They can remove him and sit him for weeks while he works his issue out in the real world and then when he gets hot agina they can simply put him right back into the linup with no ill affects!
It’s just completely ridiculous to say the Mets have done a horrendous job developing talent. If you can fill out an entire lineup of homegrown players, and most of those players either are already good major league players OR can realistically become good starters in the majors in the future, you did not do a horrendous job – You actually did a good job.
In the lineup, Ike, Tejada, Murph, Valdespin, Kirk, and Duda either are already good major league starters, OR can be good major league starters someday.
Same with the rotation, Niese Gee, Harvey, either are already good major league starters, OR can someday be a good major league starters. And you can’t exclude Pelfrey either even though he’s been a huge disappointment, because he’s still a starter in the major leagues.
And in the pen you have Parnell, Joe Smith(who counts even though he was traded because this is just about developing players), and Edgin who either are already good OR can be good in the future….Parnell may not be a dominating closer, but he’s not a bad relief pitcher – 3.10, 1.27 WHIP, 39 K’s, and only 8 BB’s in 40IP is pretty good if you ask me.
if you look at just 05-10(not 20years ago), when all those guys were signed, the Mets did not do a horrendous job, they actually did a good job.
And then on top of that, you still have prospects in the minors from those years who have a lot of potential too.
If your point is that Omars tenure has done a better job then his predecessors producing players I’m not disagreeing with that but until one of these guys reaches their potential they are just that, potentially good players. None of them have proven that they are good MLB players yet. And it is still a valid point that they have done a poor job developing impact players.
Before Omar they didn’t produce much of anything at the very least there are some players that can be good players but it’s still untapped potential. There’s a reason why Wheeler jumped to the organizations number one prospect. And until harvey and Edgin prove they are good then they are also in the untapped potential category and please don’t try and sell me that Parnell is anything more than a mediocre reliever. The guy can’t pitch in a big spot to save his life.
And I think you are totally overrating Duda and Murphy all stick and nothing else. . Neither player has any business in the NL. When the players have proven themselves I will say they did a good job. Right now the jury is still out on most of them. I’ll give you Niese and Tejada, possibly gee but I wanna see how Niese finishes the 2nd half. The last 2 years have not gone well for him he runs out of gas.This list of names you mention Ike, Tejada, Murph, Valdespin, Kirk, and Duda I will go on record right now and say they are not a championshp core. Tejada is right now the only well rounded two way player. I can’t even give you Ike anymore until he makes the adjustments neccesary.
And you once again are really missing the point of what I’m trying to say. This isn’t a knock on Omar although I think he’s gotten a lot of mileage out of signing Sammy Sosa but saying the Mets over the years have done a lousy job developing impact players is more of a knock on ownership than it is on any of the front offices. They have been historically in the bottom 3 teams spending wise on the draft and that’s why we rarely develope any top players. And that is 100% true.
Except for last year. We spent the most we ever had before but this year we went right back into cheap mode by not signing half our picks. There’s no excuse for that. They weren’t even willing to spend slot money and we let our 2nd rounder walk away. That’s a god damn disgrace.
And Famillia didn’t really take that big of a step back anyway. He’s only 22 years old pitching in a league where the average age is 27. I don’t know for sure, but he’s probably one of the youngest players in that league. So, It doesn’t bother me that much that he struggling. Also, what’s important is that his stuff is still there – He still has electric stuff, and is still striking guys out.
His problems I think have been mostly mechanical, which can be fixed, and it really isn’t that much of a surprise considering that he didn’t start pitching until much later on in life than most other pitchers I believe – So, that’s most likely why he’s still very raw.
You’ve been beating this no homegrown bullpen arms for a while now….but i’ve never heard anyone put such an emphasis on building bullpen arms due to the fact that it is a crap shoot and would be a waste of resources to focus in on building up a stable of relief pitching and draft players based on them being relief….rather than draft good pitchers and let the chips fall where they may…I think you’re grasping at straws…Minaya had PLENTY of flaws as a GM but finding talent with what he was given wasnt one of them….
Also, Parnell isnt the best home grown talent relief pitcher that Omar drafted Joe Smith whom he traded to cleveland is(Flawed move trading him)…and Edgin doesnt look bad at all either
FYI Relief pitching is the last position I’d want my franchise producing….How many of these relief pitchers whom are successful even stay with the team that drafted them(not name mariano)? Most have 2-4 good years and sign gigantic contracts with other teams(see K-Rod)the others implode(Lidge,Broxton)
BBLB when did I say to put emphasis on developing or even drafting relievers? You’re missing the point. My point was that we shouldn’t have to go out and buy 3-4 guys out in the free agent market. we should produce a few here and there, We don’t. We go out and buy them every year.
That’s exactly what I mean when you said draft good pitchers and let the chips fall where they may. It’s not just a knock on Omar. We didn’t develope any long before Omar was here.
Of course relievers are the last thing you want to develope but we should still have some coming from our farm system. Joe Smith is gone, he traded him for a guy who was hurt and didn’t even bother to give him a physical. I didn’t agree with that pick or Kunz either. So right now Parnell is the best homegrown reliever until Edgin who I believe will surpasses him.
Point is Phillips and Omar had 6 drafts each and not one closer came through our system. I don’t know how you defend that. I don’t know how any Met fan can defend the poor job of developing players the franchise has done for many years and even the guys that we have such high hopes for are still untapped potential.
Freeman and Ike is debatable. If you like Freeman better, Ok. But don’t make it seem like Freeman is a star in the making, and Ike isn’t an “actual” 1stbaseman. Because they both have similar numbers for their careers, and are both young and have upside.
It’s not that I like Freeman better I just think he’s an overall better hitter and being almost 3 years younger, putting up equal numbers means he’ll probably get better. I like Ike’s power a little more but I like Freemans ability to spray line drives all over the field I like a little more. But Ike’s past 2 nights he not only hit 4 HR’s he drove the ball and kept his weight back. Even though people were saying Ike is back about a month ago I wasn’t buying it. He was still out in front of everything but he’s so massively strong he can still hit it out being off balance. H’e swinging his best bat of the year right now.
I say that we now have a good minor league system because of the pitching – It isn’t just because we have a lot of arms, it’s because we have a lot of POWER arms with high ceilings – Harvey, Wheeler, Famillia, and Mejia, have great power arms as everyone knows. But also in the lower minors there’s Fulmer, Montero, Tapia, Mateo, and Matz who have power arms, and high ceilings – There’s not many teams out there that have that many quality power arms in their system. That’s why I say the Mets have a deep minor leagues.
and there’s more too! Mazzoni, Verrett, Pill, from the 2011 draft, and there’s guys like Gorski, Mchugh, DeGrom, who still have a shot.
The hitting isn’t as bad as your making it seem. Valdespin is still technically a prospect. Flores is having a great season at only 20 years old. MDD is having a good year overall. Marte is a solid prospect. Vaughn is not a bad power hitting prospect – So is Aderlin Rodriguez. Cesar Puello is very talented, he doesn’t have great numbers, but he’s still young , so he still has a shot despite his numbers. Taijeron is having a good year. Tovar is a solid defensive SS, and he’s only 20 playing in AA(reminds me of Tejada). And then there’s the savior, Brandon Nimmo!!!! All kidding aside, Nimmo is a good prospect too.
So, while the hitting isn’t great, it’s not bad either. And I feel that since our pitching is so strong, it makes up for the hitting.
Vinny you’re preaching to the choir. Not too many people follow our minors as closely as I do. I know exactly what we have in terms of power arms. I even watch a lot of these guys play. My point was the pitching is way ahead of the position players and the position players that we have are mosty at the lower levels. Flores and Den Dekker not withstanding.
We have a greatly improved system but it’s still not considered deep around MLB yet It’s middle of the pack and climbing to where I’d say it should be within the top 10 by next year, so long as the kids continue to make progress and have back to back successful years and not take steps back like Famila, Puello and Lagares just to name a few. Right now we’re about 15th-18th best farm.
Be carefull calling Nimmo a good prospect, the core won’t be saluting you for that one. Most of the high ceiling talent was brought into the system in 2010 and 2011, between the draft and the IFA’s from both GM’s staffs. For all the knocking of DePodesta on this site mainly he did sign Mateo and Montero, both whom he tried to sign when he was with SD just to name a few. And Omars Internatonal scouting staff signed some high upside players right before he left. The thing that bothers me is this years draft. We failed to sign half our picks and that’s disturbing to me.
In your 1st post, you mentioned nothing about the past 20 years. You only started with that when I said you were being unfair about the 07 draft when we passed on Stanton and freeman. Your original post was all about what Omar left behind.
I think what happens is, that you don’t have a strong enough argument about the years that really matter (05-10), so you have to go back 20 years to make your argument stronger – Just like T Agee used to do.
And if your saying Harvey is expected to be an excellent pitcher, then that refutes your point about not having any impact talent then. You said before that you don’t see any big time talent that we could build around, then you say Harvey is expected to be an excellent pitcher – You contradicted yourself there.
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that you don’t see any big time talent, then say one of our pitchers is expected to be an excellent pitcher.
I mentioned how we passed on Stanton and Freeman becuase of all the talk about how excellent a scout Omar is in other discussions that leaked onto here. I guess you didn’t see those other discussions. What exactly did Omar leave behind? Am I missing something? I’m talking about the ML roster which I think you totally overrate. When I made my original point it was referring to our current roster, which is not even close to being a real contender for reasons I stated in that post.
Niese is a pretty good pitcher, I’ll give you that, good not great, Gee is a solid 5 so far. What else did he leave us? Murphy, Duda, Thole, Ike, Kirk. Nothing special there. I thought Ike was going to be but who knows what Ike is. Is he the 2010 version or the 2012 version or somewhere in between?
That’s not a championship caliber core. Sorry, that’s not gonna cut it. So 7 years after his first draft and we have a Nice number 3 and number 5 starter and a bunch of one dimensional players with the exception of Ike who I still feel is going to be pretty good. How much longer do we have to wait. Maniac says the same thing I say that we have a bunch of one dimensional players at the ML level but I don’t see you take him to task.
The 20 years is what I’ve always stated and always agreed with Agee. 2005-2010 was better than the previous 2 regimes but it still hasn’t produced any impact talent as of yet. There’s still time but it hasn’t happened yet. So the way I see it those years are still part of the 20 plus years of not producing any impact players.
You’re calling guys who have potential impact players but they’re not there yet. I also said that Omar did a better job producing players than the last 2 GM’s so I don’t know what the problem with me stating the fact that none of them are impact players yet. You can’t tell me that 2005-2010 hurts my argument until a star or even a very good player emerges from those drafts. Like I said the jury is still out on that front.
As good as I think Harvey is going to be it’s been only one start. I never said we can build around him. Just because I think he’s going to be good doesn’t mean he will. Pro scouts are wrong, so could I. We can’t call him an impact player yet.
I don’t know how many times I have to say it, if and when some of these guys become impact players I will gladly give Omars regime the credit it deserves. Right now there’s yet to be one on our roster. Potential is just that potential. I don’t see any impact players means on the current roster.
I am always talking with Maniac in the shoutbox about our prospects and I rave about them. I just don’t rave about the ones currently at the ML level. Most of our higher ceiling talent is at the lower level. Flores is the only one above A ball that I think has a chance to be an excellent hitter.
I’m not a believer in DenDekker’s offensive ability, he will make it to the majors because he’s a great CFer, but his bat might be an issue. He looks as bad as Kirk against LHP in AAA. And I’m not saying we could build around them without them making it to the majors yet. So I don’t know how I contradicted myself for saying we don’t have any impact players but I think Harvey is going to be an excellent starter.
And why is it the 2005-2010 are the only years that matter? That makes no sense. Even in those years not one star player has yet to emerge. Why doesn’t 2011 and 2012 matter or even 2004 for that matter.
One thing I think that makes you contradict yourself is I remember you saying how massively overrated Julio Teheran is in the shoutbox and that you don’t think Jason Heyward is going to be a star yet you preach that Met fans should have patience with their young players. Shouldn’t work for other teams young prospects too or just ours.
I thought I made clear that I was just doing the same thing to the Atlanta players that you were doing to our guys – I was being unfair on purpose to prove a point. I also said a number of things in jest because I was annoyed about having to hear about them all the time on a Mets fan site, and, well, because I hate the Braves.
It wasn’t really my honest evaluation of their players, and I thought everyone was aware of that – I guess not.
But anyway, your just going right back where we started – You don’t think we’ve developed any star players under Minaya…..And my counter to that is, they aren’t stars YET because they are just starting their careers – You can’t expect them to be stars the 1st second they step on a major league field. Just give them some time before we rush to judgement.
And I said 05-10 are the only years that matter because they were the years that were being discussed – Your post was about Minaya, so the only years that matter when we are talking about him is the years that he was here – Going all the way back 20 years is just moving the goal posts.
“Maniac says the same thing I say that we have a bunch of one dimensional players at the ML level but I don’t see you take him to task.”
I’m not really sure what your suggesting here? Could you explain in more detail?
Nice Job Connor!
Byrdak has been a good move, but he was the only one kept out of a large class of used pitchers, Young excluded.
Patience.
Connor I know you don’t like it when people bring up age but I have to tell you some of us have been patient with this team since before you were born!
Thats not meant as a knock on your age at all just a fact that some of us have been waiting for this team to get back to the 69 and 86 Mets for quite awhile and have no more pateience to spare for a GM who is not even trying to make imporvements just plugging in some other AAAA player hoping he doesnt’t smell as bad as the guy he replaced!
If I worked at a restaurant you went to eat at and all I did was give you the same 5 dishes that tasted like crap over and over again whle never once going after an item you might really like how patient would you be before you got pissed and went somewhere else?
If I keep serving you day old Pizza how much patience do you have before you go get or insist on a fresh one?
DUDE!!! Get off it already!!! Your like a broken record! We get it you hate Sandy Alderson! You hate David Wright! You hate this team! Move on already! You used to at least be witty now your just a crumudgeon with an ax to grind. Did Sandy kick your ass in High school or something? Did he steal your lunch money? We get it Sandy Sucks there you’ve accomplished your grand mission of bringing misery to all Mets’ fans. Now can you please move on to something else!!!
“why is the car slowing down and sputtering dear”? “Wow I think the tank is empty and we are stuck in the middle of nowhere.” “You dummy, didn’t I tell you to stop and buy gas ten miles back but know you just had to keep driving looking for CHEAP gas. I’ve got your cheap gas right here and as the Donald would say “you’re fired.”
So we replace Batista with Acosta. NOW comes the nervous breakdown. CRRRUUUUD.
Acosta’s back? In the words of that Japanese player (drawing a blank on the name) from Major League 2: We’re dicked.
Duda could be DFA’d? Good. Like I’ve mentioned many times in the shoutbox, Tampa likes him so much, so why make use for him for packaging him in a deal? I
He won’t be DFA’d. He would be optioned as he still has options. Won’t go thru waivers as he would if DFA.
DFA’d, optioned, whatever. Duda needs to go somewhere. His defense has been brutal and his bat isn’t any better.
DFA’d? How the hell would they accomplish that one? He has options and can go to the minors. Who cares who the Rays like, Sandy isn’t doing anything to improve this team anyway.
With Valdespin, Kirk, Den Dekker and Duda that’s one very left handed outfield so 2 of them may be gone by the time April 2013 comes around.
“Who cares who the Rays like, Sandy isn’t doing anything to improve this team anyway.”
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
Duda belongs at the minimum LF and backup 1B, so maybe gets his swing back and replaces Bay soon.
WHy do people praise and defend Alderson so much? He decided to go to battle this year with Thole and Nickeas as our catcher. Nickeas is probably the worst hitter in baseball and thole has no power and hits .270. He goes to battle with Chis young as our only starting pitching insurance not named schwinden or hefner. Oh wait did i forgert 41 year id miguel batista. woww what moves. Scott Hairston is so overated. When he plays everyday he is totally exposed for what he is. A .240 hitter at best with streaky power and always strikes our or pops up in a big spot. Maybe twice a year he hits u a big homer. Alderson did nothing to help the outfield. He gave us Torres who is a downgrade offensively from Pagan who is having a pretty good year with speed. He doesnt sign Reyes and instead spends the money it wpould cost for reyes in 2012 on washed up releivers like rauch francisco and ramirez. Nobody wanted tho guys its ridiculous. We could have had reyes and tehada up the middle for years. Awesome defense up the middle. Murphy could have a been a nice utility man off the bench. He could have kept pagan, improved catcher with anyyyyybody, and signed a decent right handed bat for the outfield. Bay should be on the bench and nothing else. As for the rotation. Ok they didnt have the money for gio gonzales but how bout the tons of other decent pitching they could have got for cheap as insurance for injuries. ALderson is a lazy do nothing gm. How is Brafd Eamus doing? How is willie harris, dj carrasco? the list goes on and on. he is a nightmare. He let this season die
Eric, the CORE salute you… trust me, i’ve been singing the same tunes for over 2 years with this man, when i satrted seeing he was just shaving money off the payroll for the wilpons’ debt i knew something was awry, yet, people kept saying how everything was part of his plan. after faling the first offseason people were quick to blame minaya somehow. last offseason the same thing happened, another terrible offseason and people somehow kept coming up with excuses for his shortcomings… I mean, even to point out how acquiring a POS like hefner was somehow a smart baseball move because he fills a gap and don’t cost much… YEt his 700.34 ERA that has cost the team is overlook… SMH..
Alex, I guess were just supposed to be all impressed that he went to harvard and was a marine in vietnam. Hey thats pretty cool dont get me wrong but it has nothing to do with buliding a baseball team. I see him as an alrady accomplished 63 year old guy who really has othing to prove and has no sense of urgency with this team and doesnt really give a crap
Does he need to have a sense of urgency? You think that because we got off to a nice start, we should go all in? alright…
go all in?? what the hell does that even mean? Noone in here is saying trade wheeler or harvey, but to upgrade the bullpen.. I don’t think a guy like huston street would cost u that. the mets needed help, everyone knew it and saw it, except the guys leading the team.. They gave up on the team, let the players and the coaches on the dry, then the team starts 1-9 since the break, 2 games below 500 and it will prob get worse when we have to see hefner and chris young every 5th days…
Huston Street, the guy that the Padres are trying to extend now that they got the Quentin deal done? I’m sure in a sellers market he would have cost quite a bit. Add to that an extensive injury history as well. Be smart, a lot of teams are in contention and not a lot of teams are convinced they want to sell as of yet. This happens to be simple economics. Supply is low, demand is high prices are high. We can all agree that the team is not exactly ready for the big time as constructed. Maybe we should try to avoid another Kazmir for Zambrano type deal. Or does the “Core”, that’s cute they have a nickname, not think of such things?
Forget it Sane. The core doesn’t take economics of baseball into consideration. They think if Alderson made a few tweaks we’d be a complete team. They don’t understand just how mediocre at best that this team is. It’s not even worth it.
Yea and who’s fault is it that the team is so incomplete? Alderson! We have no team speed. Well who let Reyes and Pagan go? No power well who decided that duda and davis two in my opinion unproven power bats being that duda never played a full season and Ike davis played only 1 full season. A season and a month in 2011. You dont get rid of all your speed, not replace a bat like beltran and do nothing for rotation depth and get scrubs for the bullpen. In all his pennyt pinching he really overpaid for guys other teams didnt even want if u think about it. Rauch and Francisco. Yet we were 7 over .500 and he did nothing to keep it that way. a couple of tweaks here and there and im not saying were still 7 over .500 but maybe wed have 3 or 4 less bullpen losses and maybe a lil more hitting and we could have 5 more wins easily right now. If we were 2 games over .500 right now instead of 3 under wed right in it still. Hell theyre still only 6 out. If this team wins tom, 3 of 4 in arizona, and 2 of 3 in san fran. We could easily 3 or 4 out of second wild card. All its gon a take is one hot streak and were back in it but this team cant have a hot streak because alderson wants them to lose. No gm who gives a crap would allow nickeas to still be here. The guy is not even flirting with the mendoza line hes wayyyy under. Thole has 11 rbis! Bay should b released! Hairston should not be starting everyday on any team in th emajor leagues he sux!! Migues Baltista should never have gotten this many starts!
And tell me Eric when your team is losing 70 million bucks after losing 50 million bucks the year before and just cut 50 million from payroll, how the hell is replacing a bat like Beltran’s? Explain that one to me.
Why would he spend 106 million on Reyes when Reyes has been injured the last 3 years and we have a very capable SS for the future for 400K. And don’t even give me the Pagan nonsense who was a miserabla in the clubhouse and played the worst CF defense I’ve seen in 40 years, ran the bases like a moron and was below average offensively.
What good is speed if you run yourself out of innings and in case you didn’t realize we were 3rd in Runs score at the break and are 4th now. Plus I might add we have gotten better run production from the platoon of Torres and Kirk. Pagan had one good month in May and has been horrible in every other month and his defense is still worse than Torres’ this year.
And what would you like him to do not play Ike and Duda? How do you ever find out if these guys can play if you go out and try and plug holes through free agency every year. Yeah cause that’s worked so well for us. When do we start producing our own players?
I have no arguement regarding the bullpen he did an absolutely horrible job. But whay do we have to go out and buy a entire new bullpen every year, Why don’t we have guys from the farm ready to step in and do the job? What are the odds of hitting the lottery every year and 4-5 guys you bring in all work out.
He didn’t upgrade Pitcher, I agree. bad job on his part, I would’ve liked them to bring in Pat Maholm, a SP and Ryan Doumit to catch and also plays some 1B and RF. H’es not much better than Thole defensively but a much better offensive force
Not every body is a fkn Sandy apologist like the idiot beneath me claims. We realize that the team was an absolute mess and had a ton of holes to be filled and had to cut payroll 50 million so what can you realistically expect.
He should’ve tried to add a bullpen arm last month. I’m sure he tried Who knows what’s going on behind closed doors but to act like the guy is out playing golf and not working the phines is utter BS.
We have way more problems than just the bullpen. We have a hole in RF, CF, C, 2B, LF, possibly 1B after this seaon , an entire bullpen and a couple of starters. How in the name of Christ is any GM going to fix all of that in less than 2 years while he;s cutting 50 million from payroll from the last GM’s fk ups.
We gets me is you guys actually think Omar left a team on the cusp of a championship that neede to add a few pieces to get over the top and Sandy dismantled good team. The team he inhertited was an absolute mess and the joke of MLB. When Family Guy and the Simpsons are making fun of your team you have reached utter embarrasment. If you though Sandy or any GM was going to get this mess fixed in less than 3-4 years you were greatly mistaken. They didn’t win jack shit with Beltran, Reyes, Pagan or K-Rod, infact we never once finished over 500 with those 4 guys as teammates.
Yep the core doesn’t merely accept the bullshit of Sandy Apologists without them showing a shred of proof of what they claim!
All you guys have are beliefs but you all way short of any facts!
Who’s the Sandy apologists? Give me some names. And stop grouping everybody as an apologist just because they don’t have a blind hatred for him and support him. What’s the bullshit that the team he inherited was a mess? That’s 100% accurate. That’s a fact. They were a mediocre team with a star studded payroll, that had players constantly hurt and constantly underperforming and because of that they lost a ton of money and have to rebuild while cutting a record number of payroll. That’s a fact. And I have no idea why I’m debating with the number one most clueless poster, barnone on this site. Yeah we have a glut of middle infielders in the farm system right. Lol. We have a glut of hotdog vendors too.
Anyone who makes excuses for the moves Sandy has made and instead blames someone else!
Like you blaming the Wilpons for the payroll cuts and not the guy who is quoted as saying ‘You can’t have more than two big contracts on your payroll”
The team was lost 120 million the last 2 years combined. Common sense tells you payroll was getting slashed. Checkbook baseball is over for the time being.
And made 200 Million on Stock Sales!
Guess what….If Attendance stays what it is or declines because we gave up in July again they will lose money again!
Who you want to cut this time to solve that problem?
Wright? Santana?
That 200 million as needed in order for them to keep the team. They have both short and long term debt obigations. I don’t think that money was oing to be used to sign players. The team will probably lose money this year, in fact I’m sure of it but it won’t be in the neighborhood of 70 million, or even 50 million but if their payroll was 142 like last year then they would’ve. Despite the nice 1st half this is still a long term rebuild for reasons that I stated in my original post.
You failed Math in school didn’t you?
Tell us all why they would have had to sell the team if they didn’t make that extra 80 Million!
What else did they lose money on that they needed that money or they would have to sell?
Got anything or is this just another classic case of Fonzie insisting his bullshit is real?
no one is talking about urgency, just activity. Anything! show the fans and players something by getting a reliever or 2. Even just 1 releiver would b nice. Maybe a right handed bat off the bech, maybe releasing bay. Something!!!
I don’t see a point to making a move just to make a move. it has to make sense in terms of cost and benefit. its a seller’s market. To overpay for things when you really dont have a position of strength to deal from doesn’t make sense. I’m sure if a palatable offer presented itself a move would have been made. Be realistic, that’s all I’m saying.
Be realistic….
Sandy is just as capable of presenting an offer as any other GM…
Why should he wait for one to come around and why doesn’t he go make one up himself?
And you know as avsolute fact that no phonecalls were made and no names were discussed? Just because theres no reports doesnt mean nothing is happening. Get real. Discussions are constantly going on that no one would ever hear about outside of a few members of the front office. unless you are some sort of a special assistant to the gm that is privy toball internal discussions and plans of the team.
get real? Has any deal been made?
If calls were made then Sandy sure hasn’t been willing to make any of the deals!
Lack of evidence is not proof that something IS happening either!
Point is NOTHING HAPPENED!
Whatever reason you want to give the results is still NIL!
You know what I do have Sane?
I have the quote of a GM who announced to the entire world that we are no longer buyers so if you have a good player you want to trade for some kids don’t bother calling the Met Offices!
And really thats proof positive we are not making calls either!
Cause we aren’t interested in making a trade at all and I suspect we never really have been interested it was just lip service to wring out a few more thousand ticket sales to the suckers who have had a sip of the Sandy KoolAid and think he is actually interested in improving the team outside of just drafting and K-Mart!
Dear “Sane” If one agrees with your premise that it is a sellers market and even the most ardent fan of the GM must admit that he stated the Mets aren’t buyers, then how come the great GM can’t make a deal to sell any of the players? Fact is in two Winters and two deadlines at the helm the ship has not gotten fixed in any area. What are you defending?. Stagnation…
Hi Eric,
There is Sandy the man and Sandy the myth.
Obviously he is astute in finance, corporate structure and legal matters. He could easily be the CEO of a major corporation. That is the man. But he has also been placed on a pedestal by the champions of saber metrics and money ball to prove their point that one does not have to be a traditionalist to understand the game, citing he came in with no professional knowledge of the game and then crediting him for the Oakland successes instead of Bill Rigney. That is the myth.
His people have now acquired, released, didn’t re-sign or traded for three dozen or more players in his almost two years at the helm. For one who was able to see outside the box and be a judge of undervalued talent it, his moves certainly don’t seem to fair so well against his reputation.
It is also contended how his new vision will bring success to the Mets in the future but don’t forget, that vision is being implemented by Paul DePodesta whose use of computer analysis, money ball and draft picks during his years at San Diego does not exactly have fans knocking down the doors at the Padres ticket office today. His first year with Los Angeles, the Dodgers got their first playoff win in 16 years. However, Podesta only took the position of general manager two months before the season started, too late to make any sort of mark on that team. In his second season, they dropped to their worst record in eleven years.
Again you are starting with your false assumption. Whether you want to believe it or not it wasn’t Rigney who built that team. It would be very difficult for a man spending most of his time on the golf course to build a franchise. Rigney was Sandy’s consultant. He consulted Sandy, he had a hand in the decision making, he didn’t make the decisions. Sandy did. It’s an indisputable fact. You just don’t learn do you?
Sorry to still have to disagree with you on that Fonzie, but Rigney was a special assistant to the President, not the General Manager. Sandy also credited him for being involved on every player move ever made during his time with Oakland until Rigney’s retirement.
Our point of contention is also how one who admits he came in cold with no professional experience could suddenly turn into a baseball genius. But let’s just agree to disagree on that perspective since I credit the moves to Rigney and you do to Sandy.
But if Sandy made those great moves with Oakland, why hasn’t he been doing that for us? I know he said he’s known the Wilpons for a long time – wonder if they talked him into investing some money with Madoff too and this is his form of revenge.
Valdy the only real bright spot tonight.
You can disagree but facts are facts. It doesn’t change what the facts are that Rigney only consulted, he didn’t decide anything. He had a hand in the decision making and Sandy said he did but it was Sandy that made those decisions. If you’re not going to believe the owner Walter Haas, then we’ll leave it at that, but you’re wrong.
And why hasn’t he been doing this for us? He didn’t turn that mess of a team around in 2 years and he’s not going to turn this mess around in 2 years. Especially when you have to cut the fat from the payroll before you do anything else.
Hi Fonzie,
Both Metsie and I have submitted numerous articles on the subject of who made the personnel moves through to 1991 in Oakland. It is not conjecture and it is not speculative.
If one can come in cold with admittedly no professional knowledge, how can one then just suddenly make decisions on a major league level?
Since we’ve found a lot of material on the web to back up our advocacies, what would be good is to find some articles about the old Oakland teams in which Sandy talks about what his decision making process was in terms of one or specific trades and signings. Not generalities about his philsophies and what he looks for in a deal, but specific deals in which he says he did the player assessments himself and negotiated with other general managers – not that he approved recommendations placed to him. This only applies to pre 1991.
Thanks again for the support last night in the chat box.
Joey please stop with the inaccurate claims. you didn’t show one piece of evidence of anybody other than the GM making the personnel decisions. The only link you gave had nothing to do with who made the player personnel decisions. You showed a grading system that scouts use to try and pass as proof that the GM of the team couldn’t have made any decisions and when you were called out for not having any facts and just conjecture you took at as a personal insult and sttopped commenting for a while . I showed you plenty of links and they’re still there if you wanna go back showing Sandy made the decisions you claim Rigney did. Rigney was a semi retired consultant who spent more time on the golf course than he did with the team at that stage in his life. He had a hand in the decision making process he did not make them and until you show the proof that he made any decisions from 83-97 all you have is your false speculation. It boggles my mind how you refuse to accept facts handed to you on a silver platter.
So by your conjecture then Jon Daniels the GM of the Rangers who had no professional baseball experience and didn’t even play in college doesn’t make the baseball decisions, the consultant and special assitant who was the former GM of the Indians and Rangers, John Hart makes the decisions according to you becuase it’s basically the same set up in Texas now as it was in Oakland then. Insert Daniels in place of Sandy and insert Hart in place of Rigney. John Hart who spends most of his time as an analyst on MLB Network and is the consultant to the Rangers is the one that makes the decisions. See how ridiculous that sounds. Lets move on Joey unless you show something linking Rigney from 83-97 being the one making the decisions you’re just as wrong now as you were the first time you made this claim. Neither one of you showed anything of that nature. Only pre 1983 did anybody show Rigney making a decision. Case closed.
Hi Fonzie,
Huh?
Last night (probably on a different post) I must have again attached four or five links about decisions attributed by Rigney, including quotes about him from Sandly Alderson (and even prior to that I had posted one which Sandy said Rigney was involved in every player decision made while Sandy was with Oakland), what he saw when they signed Canesco, the Carney Lansford deal and quotes about player abilities which the reporters spoke to Rigney and not Alderson. And then I attached one in which both figures were quoted – when Canesco was traded by Oakland. If you notice, Sandy talks about it in terms of business while Rigney talked about it in terms of player and team dynamics. If Sandy was the big man who made the trade, why even involve Rigney at all in the conversation? It was because Sandy gave the business side of the deal while Rigney spoke about the baseball side of it.
Also, on different occasions I had posted two articles from professional scouting organizations who all concurred stats are virtually useless when it comes to evaluating raw talent in high school and college. The articles pointed out the reasons why – most notable the lack of opposing talent to base those stats on. In fact, very little was talked about statistics at all except for this. Those articles were deep in what a scout looks for – mechanics, ability to adjust in situations, the attitude…. so many things. And that grading system was something that was put together after extensive observation and meeting with the player and was simply a point system they gave based on that extensive evaluation of one’s mechanics, thinking, approach, etc. That is not statistical analysis – that is a grading system.
So after all that ,the subject of crediting Sandy Alderson for draft pick selection? He couldn’t even answer Gary Cohen’s question about what was wrong with Ike Davis, saying he was not a player and only an observer.
To answer your questions about other general managers, well, since a general manager wears many a different hat, it’s irrelevant except with what Sandy did in Oakland and New York. And think of it – with all the burdens placed on Sandy’s shoulders regarding the financial and structural disorder with the Mets – isn’t there a limit as to how many assignments he can tackle and handle efficiently? He’s trying to get the Mets financially back on track – that’s a 24/7 job right there.
Fonzie,
Forgot to ask one question to the above. Do you think Omar, in his position as general manager, handled all the financial and legal matters that Sandy is doing now – along with player moves and development? I don’t think so, so unless some proof is submitted that shows he did, the point is the role of the general manager varies. Omar had no legal background nor was he a businessman – but Sandy is handling those responsibilities in his position as general manager. So Omar handled different and specific assignments in his role as General Manager than Sandy is now. Neither of them could handle everything.
Yes Joey involved. He was involved. Involved. He did not make the decisions he was involved. Canseco was drafted before Alderson was GM. Lansford was traded for before Alderson is GM.
Here’s something for you to grasp. nobody knew WTF was wrong with Ike Davis not even the hitting coach so stop grasping at straws with more bullshit conjecture. You’re doing yourself a great disservice making yourself appear to not have much baseball knowledge by using points that don’t help your argument, they show your agenda.
You still didn’t ask my question. Is John Hart making the baseball decions in Texas or is Jon Daniels making them? Almost identical situations. Daniels an outsidr with no professional baseball knowledge becomes the GM and John Hart an ex GM of 2 franchises who put together 2 fantastic farm systems. Who’s making the baseball decisions? Hart the consultant or Danuels the GM?
And I’ll ask this again even though I realize it’s a waste of time but I enjoy how far a person will go to try and discredit a man for his all accomplishments. WTF the the scouting grading system have to do with a GM making trades, signing free agents and even making the determination of which draft pick to make. I hate to break it to you Mr. Anti Stats but stats are used for college level players. Happened back then and still today.
It’s funny cause the teams that are doing a good job building their farm systems are using stats to make determinations as much as that bothers you it’s true. Scots eyes make way more mistakes then the scouts that use their eyes and balance out what they see on paper. Wrong again my friend. Perhaps you will show an actual link that shows Rigney making a trade or free agent signing between 1983 and 1997. I’ve yet to see one posted. Probably becuase they don’t exist, sorry to say.
To answer you Omar question. Omar made the trades, offered the contracts and John Ricco the asst GM took care of the paper work. What you don’t think Sanday had an asst that handled the paper work in Oakland. You think he was drawing up the contracts himself. Eisenhardt handled the legal end and marketing with Oakland not Sandy after 1983. Sandy did from 81-83 and then became GM in 83.
Should say you still didn’t answer my question.
“nobody knew WTF was wrong with Ike Davis not even the hitting coach so stop grasping at straws with more bullshit conjecture”
Excuse me but I knew what his problem was! Said so for weeks before I posted this:
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/06/mmo-fan-shot-can-we-all-just-get-off-ike-davis-back-already.html
Oh and to answer your Jon Daniels question, the situation is NOT similar!
Rigney reported directly to the PRESIDENT not the GM.
Hart reports to the GM!
What you can’t seem to grasp here is Rigney for all intents and purposes was the guy who would make the reccomendations to the president who took over some of the GM duties when Martin was fired!
http://newspaperarchive.com/tyrone-daily-herald/1982-10-21/page-6
“Under reorganization Eisenhardt plans to move in and assume some of the general manager’s duties which Martin also administered ”
But Rigney was old and didn’t want to be tied down doing a day to day job. So Sandy was brought in to handle the day to day management of the office, and all that stuff Rigney and Eisenhardt didn’t want to do, including hiring/firing guys the other two decided to hire or fire and make the announcements to the press regarding trades and club PR.
Sandy did not decide a thing! He was INVOLVED in the meetings but if he thought one thing and Rigney and Eisenhardt thought another Sandy had to do what those two wanted!
He had no power to decide who got hired or who got fired and probably not even on who got drafted!
But you will continue to insist he did won’t you?
And continue to claim those who have the facts have no facts and you who have none is the only one with any!
Been here and done that…you lost that argument and got out stubborned!
I can play this game for another 2 days if you’d like. I already proved both of you wrong.I’ve lost some debates, I’m man enough to admit that unlike you but know one thing I have never come remotely close to losing a debate with you. You have not one single clue about this sport.
There are many assinine things that come out of your keyboard such as OB% has nothing to do with runs scored. Beltran is better than Griffey Jr, Reyes is better than Rickey Henderson, Greg Maddux didn’t have good stuff and Sandy Alderson not making personnel decisions until 1992 even though he was the GM from 1984.
The list goes on and on and all you do here every single day is make a total clown out of yourself with your lack of simple baseball 101 knowledge. So step aside and mind your fkn business. This was a discussion between Joey and I and I have already made a total ass out of you in this debate 3 seperate times. Oh yeah I forgot to ask . How’s that glut of middle infielders that you say we have in our farm system working itself out? Pray tell?
There’s a very intelligent kid here named Connor who’s only15 years old who’s wise beyond his years and knows the game exponentially better than you. Why not ask him to pass on some of his knowledge to you. That kid makes 100X more sense than you do.
You have proved nothing.
Metsie — I love when you play the interminable game of Last Man Standing. You’re stubborn beyond belief. Don’t change. I enjoy it when your flank is exposed to comments but you keep looking straight ahead. LOL.
Problem is my Flank has never been exposed on this issue…
There are at least 20 Links that show Sandy was the face not the decision maker in that franchise before 1991!
All Fonzie has is a quote from an owner made after 1992 and some scouts who claim Sandy Hired them (Like any HR person) vs quotes from Sandy himself that said Rigney taught him everything he knows about Players, Quotes from papers that said Eisenhardt took over GM duties from Martin and how Rigney was the guy who revamped thier development and scouting department with Sandy handling the Office work!
I got tons of proof and have showed it!
So I may be stubborn but thats because I have proof and all he has in anecdotal musings from guys who have no clue who made the decisions just who carried them out once they were made!
20 articles of complete and utter bullshit. Joey D just tried that with 4 articles and not one of them said a damn thing about Rigney making the decisions. It said Sandy did. Neither one of you guys have proved squat. That owners quote had no date on it just more conjecture from an agenda driven fool who likes to waste time being full of shit. Rigney took over for Martin in 81. Sandy took over for Rigney in 83. Rigney consulted Sandy and that’s what your proof showed. It made my case not yours. It’s the dumbest arguments I’ve ever had to encounter that you 2 guys are making that a GM did not make the baseball decisions for the first 9 years on the job. Both guys you claimed that were making them didn’t make them.
Thanks Sandy for waiting so long to make a move that now they are out of it. Maybe that was his plan all along just wait as long as possible til they collapse and he can talk so elequently about how he didnt want to mortgage the future and all that nonsense.
What I find funny is if u look at the 2006 lineup. 3 out of 8 guys were still here last year – Reyes, Wright, and Beltran. We had a career year out of Valentin and loduca. We had a 38 hr yr from Delgado, Cliff FLoyd was still here. Beltran came pretty cheap to the Cards this year relatively speaking. God forbid the mets ever keep there core intact annnnnnd add to it. No they get close to being winners they do nothing and they collapse in 2007. 2008 they get santana but that was all they did. nothing else and of course they collapse again. 2009 was an injury disaster. The last 3 years were very frustrating because both years they showed somethig in the first half of the year but ownership wants to do nothing to improve and they collapse. What is so hard for them to understand. We never got a replacement for Delgado! We never got a catcher who can hit a lick ever since loduca left! We never got an outfielder who can hit as good as Floyd! We never got a decent bullpen back after duaner sanchez got hurt n bradford and oliver left. What is so hard to comprehend. We had alot fo good hitters and speed not we have 1 big time hitter in right and no speed. We have weakened our defense. We havent improved startign ptching or relief if 4 years. Its not madoffs fault. Ownership and management gave up before that.
Oh Lord…… not him…. Acosta won’t be much better IMO, but hey! I guess we will find out….. Plus, I will be sad if The Dude goes down. Valdespin is an infielder and The Dude can hit the ball a mile. We didn’t send Ike down, so why does Duda have to go? Send down Torres. NO ONE as in ABSOLUTELY NOBODY likes him anyways. #56? Really? Like, what are you? A pitcher or a minor leaguer? I say make Torres the odd man out. He is AWFUL.
TWO WORDS!
ACOSTALYPSE NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(AGENT ORANGE EVERYWHERE)
So the Mets are done. It did not have to be this way. Upper Management never supported this manager. All they needed was to shore up the bullpen a little and the implosion might not have happened or at least it would have been delayed… and August would have brought exciting baseball. A little bullpen help would not have mortgaged the future and yet they did nothing and expect fans to come to the ballpark. Across the river , another all-star is brought in while the Mets bring up Acosta.
This organization is A** backwards Duda gets sent down because he’s been in a deep funk…But earlier this year when fans were screaming for them to demote Ike Davis when he was in a much bigger & longer slump this organization stated it doesnt make sense to send him to the minors because he needs to learn how to hit in the pro’s/major league pitching…
Yet Duda should be sent down although both situations were identical….
FYI im not saying Duda shouldnt be sent down just pointing out the confusion and mixed messages this organization exhibits….Its all LIP SERVICE
Forget Duda and Davis for a second…Why the hell is Torres still here?
At least Duda and Davis are HR threats nbut the only thing Torres is a threat to do is getting picked off or misplaying a flyball!
BBLB agreed. Davis was terrible the first 8 weeks. The logic is inconsistant. Last night there was a comment that Dave Hudgens is hands off on Davis. What is that about?
Duda got his shot and he may not be a MLB caliber talent. I feel bad he didnt become something more. The Mets have NO outfield talent at all! Scary!
DOES THIS MEAN A BAY RELEASE DOWN THE LINE?
“According to MetsBlog’s Meredith Perri, Lucas Duda will play both first base and left field while in the minor leagues.
Collins took the blame for putting Duda in a position he was unfamiliar with in right field, but Duda’s poor offensive performance was impacting the team – he wants Duda to find his stroke and feel comfortable while with Buffalo.”
Im in the Alderson blows camp, maybe he’s hamstrung by the Wilpons and spins his talk like he’s running for office, which i can’t stand. But he’s been bad.
All i know is our cathers stink(i like tthem, seem like team /good guys) he should’ve got a real right handed hitting catcher to platoon.He did next to nothing to improve situcation.He provided ZERO depth at SP going into a season where Santana was one of our 5 who was out for a year and a half, Neise hadnt pitched a full season , Gee also broke down..thenPelf goes down in April, Pelf goes down shouldve rung the bell in his head that geez we might need some help because Batista, Schwidin, Hefner and Young have provided about 2 wins.
His trade of Pagan for Torres and Ramirez was a bust, Rauch has disappointed, Francisco has been fine but obv we have bullpen issues.
Reyes was never traded to keep fans in seats, a joke, a shame. And never had any intention to resign him.
I think the plan is to wait out Bay and Santana’s contract and start over and BS every interview about how to improve team. This team was 7 games over 500, if they spent money and picked up a starter and reliver(taking salary not trading top prospect but i would trade B level no issue) we could easily still be in this but now that we’ve imploded as his bullpen completely broke down and his zero depth SP did as well , now we are no longer buyers..first it was, we like our ‘chemisty’ ,dont want to buy to disrupt it,,, how’s that chemistry now Sandy ??
Duda goes down to the minors now after being mainstay in RF. Nice. Im assuming they have enuf confidence where this demotion won’t effect him. Duda showed extended flahes of being a powerhouse yet somehow now just send him down.OK. I wish they ‘d send Nieuwenhuis with him, the guy has so many holes , he got a taste of the bigs, had some success, now he plays every 3rd day and looks bad. Let him get consistent abs in Buffalo.
Turner lost games being the right-handed 1b spelling Ike. Bad move. Not hard to find Rifghty power IB /ph . I actually liked ROttino and Quintenilla more then Cedno and Turner not that this matter in the end..
This years draft on the suface looks pretty eh but obv thats to be determined..
If im David Wright, i say after the season if the team doesnt show any committment to winning i sign elsewhere.
Im also tired of Collins as much as i like him shuffing the lineup to keep everybody ‘fresh’. Terry it doesnt work throughout a long season , it’s nice idea in April and May but get me a consistent lineup everyday.
I think that Sandy was hoping some more of his moneyball type moves would come naturally and he tried to play the patient roll and has reallly lost doing that. It’s fun deveolping the farm and having homegrown players, protecting them and i dont want to be the yankees with a $225mm payroll but i wanted to see some effort to make this team better this year and he didnt’. And i con;t to boycott CItifield this year and going forward until things change.
Acosta last to games got shelled are the mets serious
Darn, one of the few guys on the team that I could spell his name. now he’s gone. Now how do you spell that name Nuwenhize or is it Nuwenhess, oh what the heck I’ll just stick with Valdespinny.
Well, we all really knew that this season was over before it started, didn’t we? The Mets played over their head for a couple of months and that was fine and all but we all knew deep inside that when Sandy was put in charge a couple of years ago – and the Wilpons were crying poor – that we wouldn’t be competitive for a few years. And we’re in the middle of that right now.
Baseball has a long season and 162 games which is unforgivable to teams who try to patch a line-up on the cheap. It was a fun ride but there was always a feeling that the bottom would drop out at some point.
Now we root for R.A. to win as many games as he can. We root for David to have a super season and not give up. We enjoy the likes of Tejada who are putting their all into the game.
But otherwise, this season is turning out to be exactly what most of us expected before it began.
Can we all agree that this team could have been better and could have done so without syphening off our farm system? That it might not have been in our destiny to contend throughout the season but that it wasn’t in our destiny to just stumble and fall in mid-July three years running, as well (2010 under Omar and 2011/12 under Sandy)? That other moves could have been made instead? And that the total sum of the moves that were made, shouldn’t have been made or just weren’t attempted to be made over the past three seasons have just not worked – no matter which specific ones we may agree or disagree on?
Again, the point is that we did not have a destiny that assured us of being great, mediocre or bad but that we have had the means to control somewhat our own destiny and this is the result.
Fonzie,
Attached is the post I made last night with the articles.
Joey D. July 26, 2012 at 7:52 pm
Hi Amazin,
The argument about how much the baseball genius Alderson has been has been hotly contested and probably will always be. Often, articles are cited as to how he help build the Oakland club. Well, here is an article crediting Bill Rigney. It said: “As an executive he helped build the Oakland A’s three-time pennant winners and world champs of the late 1980s.” The only mention about Sandy Alderson was a quote about Rigney upon his passing:
“He had so much knowledge, but he never talked down to people,” said Sandy Alderson, former A’s GM and now assistant to commissioner Bud Selig.”
http://espn.go.com/classic/s/rigney_bill_remembrance.html
Also notice the article appearing on page eight of the attached newspaper from December, 1982 regarding the A’s and the trade for Carney Lansford. One will note it was Rigney who was at the winter meetings and who made the trade and explained the reasons why. No mention of Sandy Alderson.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1842&dat=19821207&id=SmkeAAAAIBAJ&sjid=7MgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4431,2102796
And on page 205 of his autobiography, Juan Marichal talks about who recommended him on become the Director of Scouting for Latin America back in 1984. Guess who that individual was?
http://books.google.com/books?id=7pHtxbfONEgC&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=bill+rigney+on+building+the+oakland+athletics&source=bl&ots=DzOYLyNxnU&sig=yb-GzZOynCkIz4MIAEquM7lL0YE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1dIRUMy2NajM6QH75IDgBQ&ved=0CFgQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=bill%20rigney%20on%20building%20the%20oakland%20athletics&f=false
Here is a 1986 Sports Illustrated article about the rising sluggers coming up. The first one they mention is Canseco (notice the part about going from skinny to being able lift 400 pound weights? LOL) in which a few members of the Oakland organization are mentioned about what they felt about him. Bill Rigney is included. Sandy Alderson is not.
To be fair, attached is a 1992 article about Canseco when he was traded. It quotes both Alderson and Rigney.
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1992-09-01/sports/1992245069_1_canseco-tom-reynolds-sierra
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1064693/index.htm
Link number one, says he helped, doesn’t say he was making the decisions. Saying he helped build the A’ss isn’t saying he built the A’s. Just like Joe McIlvaine helped Frank Cashen build the Mets. he didn’t build the Mets
“.Also notice the article appearing on page eight of the attached newspaper from December, 1982 regarding the A’s and the trade for Carney Lansford. One will note it was Rigney who was at the winter meetings and who made the trade and explained the reasons why. No mention of Sandy Alderson.”
Link number two. There was no mention of Sandy Alderson because in 1982 Sandy Alderson was not yet GM. He became GM in 1983. Nice try.
Link number three. ” And on page 205 of his autobiography, Juan Marichal talks about who recommended him on become the Director of Scouting for Latin America back in 1984. Guess who that individual was? ”
Bill Rigney recommended him. Yeah and that means what? Perhaps you should read page 204 where Juan marichal says Sandy Alderson hired Me, he was the GM and later became the President. I notice how you skipped over that part. Okay so lets summarize. Bill Rigney recommends Juan Mirachal for a scouting position and Sandy Alderson hired him. Sounds pretty much like what I’ve been saying all along. Sandy made the decisions and Rigney consulted. he had a hand. he did not make them. Should I even bother to read more of your links that continue to prove me right?
Link number four. Says nothing about Rigney making a player personnel decision. Frankly I’m not sure why you tried to pass that off as proof Rigney was the one that made the decisions back then. Still haven’t proved anything except the ability to waste time. Conjecture at it’s finest form.
“Perhaps you should read page 204 where Juan marichal says Sandy Alderson hired Me”
Yes and didyou know that when you go to a job interview and they hire you it’s not your future boss that really hires you it’s the Human Resources department that does the actual hiring?
But the person you report to is the one who RECCOMENDED they hire you and who you eventually will be working for!
Rigney said go hire this guy…then Sandy did! Cause he did the detail work, AFTER the decision was made by others!
Checked every page it didn’t say Rigney said go hire this guy. More bullshit. I see the page that says Sandy was the GM and later became president. He hired me. Sounds about right, the boss hired him.
And nowhere in any of your alleged proof does it say anywhere that Sandy made decisions either….
Sandy did whatever Rigney told him to do and you know what he currently does what DePodesta and Ricciardi tell him to do!
Which is why there are so many flip flops on decisions these days!
Sandy sure doesn’t look like he ha a firm handle on anything with us and seems to change his mind depending on which of his All Star GMs he spoke to last!
There’s nothing linking Rigney ordering Sandy to do anything. Sandy was above him. Sandy would ask him for an opinion but it was up to Sandy to take his advice.
Rigney gave his opinions to Eisenhardt not Sandy…He reported directly to Eisenhardt!
You think Eisenhardt was merely giving advice and Sandy did whatever he wanted?
Try that with your boss!
Get your unemployment paperwork ready befoe you do though!
Oh Fonzie, Fonzie, you missed the whole point.
The reason for the Carney Lansford article was to show that the As already had somebody in charge of trades, etc.
Didn’t you also refer to the the executive breakdowns for Oakland that I also posted from Baseball America? Did you notice that Rigney’s title, responsibilities and whom he reported to DID NOT CHANGE once Sandy Alderson became general manager in charge of baseball “operations” in 1983? And there is a vast difference in the definition of “operations” and “matters” which I provided?
In business, terms have to be specifically defined and exacting and not deal in generalities. A lawyer like Sandy goes over every word to insure there is nothing left for interpretation. In his contract his title was specifically defined to deal with baseball “operations”. Rigney’s was specifically defined to deal with baseball “matters”.
“There was no mention of Sandy Alderson because in 1982 Sandy Alderson was not yet GM. He became GM in 1983. Nice try.”
Well, now that you understand the purpose of citing that 1982 trade and posting the executive listing during that era, also remember while many of us were indeed pointing out that Sandy was the general manager in 1983 – in terms of legal counsel only – you were always firm in giving him the credit for signing Jose Canesco in 1982 (the year before) and Terry Steinbech the year later followed by Marc McGwire in 1984.
How come? He wasn’t the GM at all in 1982 (just the legal counsel) but why would you have given him the credit for those draft picks if knowing he wasn’t the GM one year, then the GM in charge of legal matters only the next and then coming in cold the year he finally took over with “operations”?
As far as saying he helped build the As – substitute Sandy for Rigney in that sentence and we suddenly find it’s the same thing as appears in Baseball Reference:
“Sandy Alderson left a private law practice in 1981 to become the Oakland A’s General Counsel. He then served as Oakland’s General Manager from 1983-97, helping form the great A’s teams of the late 1980s and early 1990s. ”
Also, look at the extensive background Rigney had. Do you honestly believe that one can come in cold with no professional knowledge of the game (Sandy’s own words) and just step in and do the job that Rigney, with four decades of baseball experience as a player, manager, the one in charge of baseball “matters” – and even a broadcaster? That one who spent his whole career prior to joining Oakland was in law?
That link number four was to show the difference in intellect between the two when it came to baseball matters. And with Ike Davis, Keith Hernadez even recently was talking about how Ike is not all there yet – citing his lunging at the ball, his body not moving with his arms (that he was swinging all arms with no use of his entire body), etc. That’s the answer from one astute in the game. Not knowing anything more than being an “observer” (like you, I and all Met fans are) is not the answer from one wants from the the man in charge of player decisions.
Metsie pretty much answered your other thoughts but Fonzie, you must understand there is a difference between one who has the authority to sign off on things than the one who does all the leg work, research and decision making. Even Omar could not sign Bay, Castillo or Perez on his own. He needed authorization. He also needed legal counsel to work out the specifics of the contract. That is what Sandy did in Oakland. With all the evidence presented, there is no way around escaping that fact. Metsie and I were not providing inuendo, we were concentrating on the facts in hand.
And as far as Sandy’s embracing of computer analysis, he is a lawyer with an analytic mind but until he was actually in charge of baseball “matters” he might have been an advocate but had little say in it’s usage.
If we want to look at the records of the teams that Sandy was indeed in charge of baseball “matters”, from Oakland to New York (he was not the GM in San Diego) it’s a very bad track record and if he depended upon computer analysis to help formulate his decisions, it’s not saying much for computer analysis as far as putting together a baseball team as well.
No Joey I did not miss the point. You failed YET again to show or link Rigney making one single baseball decsion from 1983 to 1997. Why? Because he didn’t make them once Sandy was hired as GM and VP of baseball operations.
Do you realize how idiotic it is to say the GM and VP of Baseball operations wasn’t the one calling the shots. Just like I said when you ran away and cried foul for 3 weeks that you have showed no evidence of your baseless assumption. There are only 2 people in all of America who thinks Bill Rigney built the A’s dynasty and unfortunately for us it’s you and Metsie.
Didn’t you also refer to the the executive breakdowns for Oakland that I also posted from Baseball America? Did you notice that Rigney’s title, responsibilities and whom he reported to DID NOT CHANGE once Sandy Alderson became general manager in charge of baseball “operations” in 1983? And there is a vast difference in the definition of “operations” and “matters” which I provided?
Please explain to me with your VAST knowledge the difference between baseball operations and baseball matters. Notice the executive breakdown in the chain of command Alderson is above Rigney, not below Rigney.
“Well, now that you understand the purpose of citing that 1982 trade and posting the executive listing during that era, also remember while many of us were indeed pointing out that Sandy was the general manager in 1983 – in terms of legal counsel only – you were always firm in giving him the credit for signing Jose Canesco in 1982 (the year before) and Terry Steinbech the year later followed by Marc McGwire in 1984″
You’re lying again Joey. I gave him credit for McGwire and Steinbach. I Never gave him credit for Canseco who was drafted prior to Alderson being GM. Again nice try.
“How come? He wasn’t the GM at all in 1982 (just the legal counsel) but why would you have given him the credit for those draft picks if knowing he wasn’t the GM one year, then the GM in charge of legal matters only the next and then coming in cold the year he finally took over with “operations”?
How many times do I have to repeat myself? He was legal counsel from 81-83 in which time he took the time to learn as much about the game as he could. He leaned on guys like Bill Rigney and Dick Bogard. He took over the GM position in 83, Rigney was semi retired on the golf course and in the broadcast booth. I’ll repeat it one more time. I never ever at any time said he drafted Jose Canseco.
“As far as saying he helped build the As – substitute Sandy for Rigney in that sentence and we suddenly find it’s the same thing as appears in Baseball Reference”
No, no substitutions. Sandy was the GM and Rigney consulted him. Sandy said so himself Rigney had a hand in just about every major move that Sandy made, he never said I helped Rigney make those moves.
“Sandy Alderson left a private law practice in 1981 to become the Oakland A’s General Counsel. He then served as Oakland’s General Manager from 1983-97, helping form the great A’s teams of the late 1980s and early 1990s”
That’s right! You’re learning! GM and VP of Baseball operations.
“Also, look at the extensive background Rigney had. Do you honestly believe that one can come in cold with no professional knowledge of the game (Sandy’s own words) and just step in and do the job that Rigney, with four decades of baseball experience as a player, manager, the one in charge of baseball “matters” – and even a broadcaster? That one who spent his whole career prior to joining Oakland was in law?”
Yes I can believe it cause that’s exactly what happened and guys have followed in his footsteps over the years with Sandy as their inspiration as a guy who came from outside baseball and thought outside the box and built at one point the best team in the AL.
Why don’t you question guys like Jon Daniels, Jed Hoyer, Ben Cherrington, Andrew Friedman and Theo Epstein, that’s just to name a few. They’ve done exactly what Alderson did. They came into baseball as outsiders with no professional baseball knowledge. I’ll bet you already have excuses ready to show the difference between these guys and Sandy but there’s no difference. These guys looked up to Sandy and did exactly what Sandy did. I don’t know why that bothers you but that’s what happened.
Again Rigney after Alderson was hired was the consultant to the President and GM/VP of baseball ops. He was semi retired at that point and spent 83 and 84 in the braodcast booth. How in Gods name could he be responsible for all the free agent signings, trades and draft picks when by his own admission spent half his time on the golf course as Jessep showed the article quoting Rigney as saying so. He consulted the moves.
“That link number four was to show the difference in intellect between the two when it came to baseball matters. And with Ike Davis, Keith Hernadez even recently was talking about how Ike is not all there yet – citing his lunging at the ball, his body not moving with his arms (that he was swinging all arms with no use of his entire body), etc. That’s the answer from one astute in the game. Not knowing anything more than being an “observer” (like you, I and all Met fans are) is not the answer from one wants from the the man in charge of player”
Oh so you didn’t like the answer that means there’s no way he could’ve been responsible for making the player personnel decisions 30 years ago? LMAO You have to be kidding. That’s your proof he didn’t make those baseball decisions. I mean you can’t be serious. Why not question Terry Collins’ answer on the matter. Terry a 30 year lifer had no idea what was wrong with Ike. If he knew what was wrong he would’ve been able to try and fix it. No?
“Metsie pretty much answered your other thoughts but Fonzie, you must understand there is a difference between one who has the authority to sign off on things than the one who does all the leg work, research and decision making. Even Omar could not sign Bay, Castillo or Perez on his own. He needed authorization. He also needed legal counsel to work out the specifics of the contract. That is what Sandy did in Oakland. With all the evidence presented, there is no way around escaping that fact. Metsie and I were not providing inuendo, we were concentrating on the facts in hand. ”
No Metsie didn’t answer anything. Metsie answered what he wants to believe happened but has no idea what actually happened. Marichal said Sandy hired him. No where did it say that Rigney ordered Sandy to hire him. Rigney didn’t have the authority, he was under Alderson. He made the suggestion and Sandy went and hired him. Alderson once he became GM was in charge of baseball decisions. You have shown nothing to prove otherwise and are looking mighty ridiculous trying to deny it.
Eisenhardt was still legal counsel and was in charge of the legal matters as well as marketing. You telling me others did the legwork is nothing different than any other franchise. I have said numerous times that the GM makes the decisions based on information from his staff and in Oaklnad it was no different.
Sandy still had final say not Rigney. I showed dozens of links proving it. Not one lsaid Rigney trades so and so for so and so. Not one link said Rigney drafted McGwire based on his power potential, not one said Rigney traded for Dave Parker or Dave Stewart. They all say Sandy did it. Sorry for you that Metsie has suckered you into believeing his bullshit. Everybody else knows Metsie makes up just about everything he types. Except you!
And as far as Sandy’s embracing of computer analysis, he is a lawyer with an analytic mind but until he was actually in charge of baseball “matters” he might have been an advocate but had little say in it’s usage.
More bullshit. What exactly is computer analysis? Sandy was an advocate of statistical analysis not computer analysis. You have no idea what your talking about yet you try and act like you know exactly what went on in Oakland 30 years ago. Not one link you provided did anythng to help your claim.
“If we want to look at the records of the teams that Sandy was indeed in charge of baseball “matters”, from Oakland to New York (he was not the GM in San Diego) it’s a very bad track record and if he depended upon computer analysis to help formulate his decisions, it’s not saying much for computer analysis as far as putting together a baseball team as well.”
How the hell is 4 division titles, 3 AL pennants and a world series championship title a bad record?
Joey stick to your old original Met stories. That’s the good thing you add to this site. Your conjecture and assumptions as well as your cliches are doing nothing but making you look like you are either truly clueless or have an agenda that’s so far out there it’s making you look as such.
I noticed you don’t have much to say about the GM’s who rely heavily on advanced stats and sabermmetrics probably even more so than Alderson. Theo Epstein, Brian Cashman, Josh Byrnes, Ben Cherington, Jed Hoyer, Billy Beane, Andrew Friedman, Jon Daniels, John Mozeliak, The Pirates GM who’s name is slipping my mind, Jerry DiPoto, and those are the names off the top of my head. You know what all those guys have in common besides coming into baseball with no pro knowledge. They’re all successful which destroys your notion that statistical analysis, not computer analysis what ever the hell that means happens to work very well in conjunction with scouting.
. BTW have you noticed how God Awful K-Rod has been since he was put back into the closers role for the Brewers? He blew 3 consecutive save and is no 3 for 9 in save opportunities with a 5.35 ERA and a 1.70 WHIP and you would’ve kept him and his 17.5 million dollar option and your ther boy Takahashi is relegated to lefty specialist duty and has been getting lit up and now has a 4.37 ERA. I rest my case.
LOL you want a decision he made?
He told Eisenhardt it was ok to hire a guy with zero MLB experience because me and you are going to make all the decisions anyway!
WHo was in charge of bolstering the teams Player deelopment?
Rigney
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2209&dat=19821027&id=sqMrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=rvwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2503,7278997
Who decides who would be the next Manager? Sandy or Rigney?
Rigney!
“In making the announcement, Eisenhardt said Rigney will go to work for the A’s immediatly and take part in the selection of a manager to replace Billy Martin”
Who took over GM durties from Billy Marting?
Eisenhardt!
http://newspaperarchive.com/tyrone-daily-herald/1982-10-21/page-6
“Under reorganization Eisenhardt plans to move in and assume some of the general manager’s duties which Martin also administered ”
Why was it not Sandy if he was in charge and the guy who made the decision to fire Martin in the first place?
Because he didn’t decide to FIRE martin he just did the deed as neither Eisenhardt, Rigney nor the Owner had the heart to fire him after all he did for them!
So they let Sandy play BAD COP! He’s real good at it if you hadn’t noticed!
But as far as making decisions? Wasn’t making them until Eisenhardt left and Rigney was re-ssigned to consult for Sandy not Eiesnhardt! And that didn’t happen till 1991 and 92!
HI Metsie,
Knew you would come to my rescue with this.
Again, the wording of the title (operations versus matters) is very explicit and something that cannot be ignored.
I said Sandy didn’t have a good track record was because he was not in charge of personnel decisions when Oakland was winning championships. Also, he happened to be the CEO and not the “general manager” in San Diego when they won division titles
Operation usually refers to a person who is not making the decisions but instead runs the organization to ensure that it follows whatever decision has been made!
COO is under the CEO. He is no more powerful than any other director or officer that reports directly to his boss! And even less power if the other officers have been assigned to specific Departmental Aspects of the business. They run that department and do not answer to the COO unless the COO is specifically placed as the buffer between all other officers and the CEO (in this case President). Since we know Rigney reported directly to the President we also know Sandy was not the sole buffer between Eisenhardt and the rest of the staff!
Here is a link that shows an org chart on how this all works.
http://www.bridgestar.org/Libraries/Documents/Sample_COO_Organizational_Charts.sflb.ashx
Figure 3 is what Fonzie is trying to say is what existed but we all know that Rigney didn’t have to go through Sandy to tell Eisenhardt anything as he reported directly to him!
That means one of the other two charts is more accurate in showing how thier coporate structure was aligned and mostly Sandy was playing the role in Figure #1.
In charge of the finances, the HR Department, Network Admin (IT) And all the facilities the company used.
Rigney would be the VP of development in that figure and maybe even the VP of Programs albeit without a title!
He was charged with rebuilding the development team, He was the one who vetted and said to Eisenhardt this is a good guy to have.
And Sandy acting as the manager of HR then did the actual hiring and work needed to put them on staff!
Just Like Cashen and McIlvane hased out who they would go and get and then hand it off to
harazin to work out any contract details and handle the actual hiring proccess!
Fonzie has never (and will never with his attitude) ever get close to a corporate boardroom to see how those things work!
All he knows is a General manager today does everything and since the same words were next to Sandy’s name he must have as well!
Yet he has yet to prove at all that Sandy made a single decison regarding the 1989 A’s who he wants to credit Sandy with for building when we all know Sandy himself has said I just sat Quietly and Listened in the meetings!
Hi Metsie,
And thanks for the course in Business 101.
Fonzie, I don’t at all doubt that you are truly sincere in your beliefs but as Metsie and I have both pointed out, the complex business world, which includes professional sports, is not run in the manner in which you suggest. Decision making, in this case, the important selection and development of minor league talent and the assemblage of a major league roster which can affect a franchise’s economic as well as competitive well-being, is not left in the hands of those “coming in cold”.
In turn, matters regarding finance and legalities requiring executive action that are far reaching in scope are made by those with the background and experience of an Alderson. Nobody is going to leave those types of decisions to one “coming in cold”, either.
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/11448/original-as-analyst-discusses-alderson
Here’s a man who wrked with Alderson that says Sandy did what you said can’t be done.
“You obviously have no knowledge of the corporate world and little grasp of the world of professional sports, not even one who could appreciate it as a casual observer. From the way you make things sound, it means a high school graduate with no experience can come in and do the job it’s taken you years to learn and master. I doubt that is true. Or is it?
I’ve worked in the corporate world all my life. I know exactly how the corporate structure works and I know the world of professional sports quite well. I learn through research. You don’t bother to do any research you go by what you think is or is not possible. IBM is not run exactly the same way a professional sports franchise is.
“If you believe all that, you should have applied as mets general manager after Omar was fired since it seems the want add in Oakland must have read “no experience necessary”
Maybe if I was an attorney who’s partner had a brother in law that just bought a baseball team I would have a shot but since I have no such connection my chances are nil. Maybe if you’d bother to research what exactly took place in Oakland you’d have a better understanding of what took place, instead of making baseless assuptions because you just don’t wanna believe that an extremely bright individual was capable of pulling off such a thing. Just because you are incapable doesn’t mean everybody else is incapable.
And thanks for the course in Business 101.
“Fonzie, I don’t at all doubt that you are truly sincere in your beliefs but as Metsie and I have both pointed out, the complex business world, which includes professional sports, is not run in the manner in which you suggest. Decision making, in this case, the important selection and development of minor league talent and the assemblage of a major league roster which can affect a franchise’s economic as well as competitive well-being, is not left in the hands of those “coming in cold”.
In turn, matters regarding finance and legalities requiring executive action that are far reaching in scope are made by those with the background and experience of an Alderson. Nobody is going to leave those types of decisions to one “coming in cold”, either”
It’s funny how you had no idea of the many different hats a GM wears just a few months ago and now you’re trying to tell me how it works. Another Cliche hah Joey? Coming in cold.
I’ll say it one more time. He came in as general counsel in 1981 and then started learning about the game. We’ve already been over this but you like to keep playing your assuption game. He took over in 1983 not 1981 so he didn’t just come in cold. He learned for 2 years while working for the team. Do you think he would’ve just been name GM the first day with the club as an outsider or perhaps the owner had confidence that a very intelligent man was capable learning how to build a successful franchise. Which he did. 4 division titles, 3 AL pennants and a WS titles.. I’d say that’s a success.
“Now stop it with this BS about baseless assumptions”
No Joey it’s not BS. You and Metsie are the ones BSing. Neither one of you have given any shred of evidence linking Rigney to ordering Sandy to make one personnel decision from 1983-1997. Metsie gave a couple about Rigney in 1982. One year before Alderson was named GM. Please show something that links Rigney making one decision from 1983-1997. You can’t Joey it doesn’t exist. That’s because he didn’t make the decisions Sandy did. He only consulted them. That’s a fact. Something you’re not very familiar with.
I have a bunch of links showing each trade and free agent signing Alderson made from 83-91 and from 91-97 and there’s not one link that shows Rigney did anything other than consult. I looked at every article regarding Rigney and not one had him as the one that built the A’s. I challenge you to come up with one to finally back up your baseless BS assumptions. And don’t give me any BS articles from 1982 like Metsie tried to pass off as proof. It has to be after 1983 or else don’t bother.
Note your link is from 2010 and speaks nothing about what happened pre-1991!
Show something when Sandy was the GM in 1983. You’re showing 1982. He wasn’t GM yet s it doesn’t matter who made the decisions. I never questioned 1982. That’s actually the only 2 links out there that shows Rigney doing anything. There’s nothing else.
Yep I’m showing you what events occurred the year Martin was fired (who was the GM before Sandy was named) and led to the restructuring that was put in place and Sandy was working under in 1983!
Sandy didn’t make decisions!
And no amount of links fromk 2010 is going to change that unless the anecdote says specifically Sandy made a decision from 1983-1991.
You have not showed one shred of proof that he decided, just that he carried out whatever decision was made!
Just as we have said was his job back then!
And Our links prove that was what Sandy was there to do.
To go make the decisions made happen!
I have researched Rigney’s entire baseball life and nowhere does it say he made any player personnal decisions from 1983-1997. Show the moves Rigney made in that time frame. All you do is say what he did. You never show one acquisition that Rigney made. 1982 doesn’t matter.
And no where does it Say Sandy made them before 1991 either!
We have evidence that Rigney was charged with rebuilding the development and baseball side of the organization.
We have showed proof that Eisenhardt took over the Player Evals from Martin when he was fired! And he did whatever Rigney told him to do. Then he told Sandy to go and do it!
Now you find us an example where Rigney said do A and Sandy said no screw you I want B and did so!
OK Fonzie,
If you believe all that, you should have applied as mets general manager after Omar was fired since it seems the want add in Oakland must have read “no experience necessary”.
I will let your words speak for everything else – except KRod. With KRod it just shows, when the Mets go down, all the alumni and top prospects go down with them
I figured since you thought showing me the baseball america executive database was proof of Rigney the one responsible for making the personnel decisions you could maybe explain that same list in 1989.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/execdb/?show=team&fid=oak&year=1989
Looks like Rigney was Sandy’s assistant. special asst to the GM. Just like I always said he assisted Sandy not the other way around.
What your explanation of it Fonzie?
Rigney was an assitant to the Executive Vice President on baseball Matters!
Was that Sandy? NO!
Therefore Rigney had just as much if not MORE power than Sandy because Rigney basically took over for Eisenhardt and merely gave his decisions directly to Sandy!
Eisenhardt rarely ever overruled Rigney anyway so there was no longer a need for him to act as the go between.
And by that time Sandy probably knew full well that whatever Rigney said to do he should do!
No Sandy was the GM and VP of baseball ops. His title was above Rigney’s. You have nothing linking Rigney to making one move in between 1983 and 1997. You won’t find it cause it doesn’t exist. It never happened.
Thats bullshit Fonzie and you know it I showed the orgchart!
If you report directly to the president then your equal to or ABOVE the vice president!
Power structure is based on access to the boss!
Since they both had equal access you might be able to prove they were equal in power…
Wghich means in the end Eisenhardt made the decisions and all Sandy and Rigney did was make suggestions And we know Eisenhardt trusted Rigney more than Sandy because Rigney picked the next manager after Martin not Sandy!
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/sandy-alderson-s-20-most-significant-moves-1.2411013#1
Doesn’t say anything about Rigney ordering Sandy to make any of these moves. It says Sandy made them. That’s plenty of proof that you don’t have a real rebuttal for. Just agenda driven conjecture.
Doesn’t say Sandy decided to make those moves either…just that he was GM when they happened!
That;s right the GM. The GM made those decisions not Rigney. It would’ve said Rigney’s most significant moves. It didn’t. It said Sandy hence the moves were made and decided by GM until you show something that says Rigney made those decisions and ordered Sandy to go make them. If you can’t than hush up.
It didn’t say the Gm made the decisions either!
What you fail to grasp is Sandy doesn’t run the evaluations even to this day!!!
He may decide which of his advisors gets his way but it’s not Sandy saying this player over that one!
Which is why Harvey is ready but he not ready then he’s ready again!
Which is why We are Buyers no we are Sellers no we are builders!
Sandyu isnt deciding a thing even to this day he is just flying by the seat of his pants which is all he has ever done after Eisenhardt left and Rigney stopped giving him advice!
Funny isn’t it how all your links are 10-15 years after the fact while all of ours are from the time in question…..
just more proof that you know your full of shit but just can’t let it go!
No your link is from 1982. My links are from the people that worked for him and they tell the actual facts that Sandy was the one who was the decision maker. They worked under his philosphy. They don’t talk about Sandy following Rigneys orders the talk about Alderson being in charge. I don’t care what Rigney and Billy Martin did in 1982 because 1982 is irrelevent. It doesn’t matter when the srticles were written what matters is the time period they were talking about and those who worked for Sandy tell a different story than you do. I believe them not you.
Yes they are from 1982 and they speak directly about what happened BEFORE 1991 not something from 2012 like you keep posting that is also atributing things Sandy did POST 1991 as something he did before 1991!
“Do you realize how idiotic it is to say the GM and VP of Baseball operations wasn’t the one calling the shots. Just like I said when you ran away and cried foul for 3 weeks that you have showed no evidence of your baseless assumption.”
Ok Fonzie,
You obviously have no knowledge of the corporate world and little grasp of the world of professional sports, not even one who could appreciate it as a casual observer. From the way you make things sound, it means a high school graduate with no experience can come in and do the job it’s taken you years to learn and master. I doubt that is true. Or is it?
Now stop it with this BS about baseless assumptions.
Hi Joey D. — You must have also been upset when Bayonne and Alex68, neither of whom has any professional front office experience, routinely said they could do a better job than Sandy Alderson as a GM. They disparaged the Mets front office whenever any opportunity arose.
Hey Des,
You know, I think Bayonne, Alex, Fonzie, you, Metsie, myself and others could indeed do a much better job than Sandy. After all, we’ve found out the job requires no prior experience so we easily meet the qualifications.
The job must really be easy if in five years one “coming in cold” on a professional level turned a team into a league champion.
First thing I would do is to hire an architect and engineer to design plans that would remove the structural obstacles blocking the view of left field for those in the upper promenade without the whole place falling apart! Know it might upset some dining in that exclusive and expensive restaurant but it would sure make a whole lot of people who only have enough money to sit in the cheap seats feel better.
They do not disparage the Met front office. They give honest appraisals of a front office that spits in the face of all good Met fans. They only love those, like you who are mere parrots eating their crackers and parroting their every lie.
Amazin — take your Valium and enjoy the game. lol
Fonzie,
You attach an interview with a statistical analyst talking about Sandy and his statistical approach as evidence that he was in charge of player decisions prior to 1991? He talks about Sandy the businessman and analytical mind, the one who is the take charge guy. Not once is there mention about Sandy making any imprint on player decisions or team play concept prior to that date.
Also, if Sandy is so big about not giving up an out, how come the Mets often bunt, play hit and run to keep out of a double play or simply hit a grounder to move a runner over? Sacrificing an out is completely opposite of how Sandy believes a game is to be played. Please explain.
I thought you understood corporate business and would make a better presentation for your cause.
BTW – that “cliche” about coming in cold is what Sandy has said in numerous interviews in which I attached. So get on his case, not mine.
They may both have more actual baseball experience than Sandy had when he got the job though!
If they played or managed at any level that would be more experience than Sandy ever had!
http://www.sfgate.com/athletics/jenkins/article/Sandy-Alderson-does-what-has-to-be-done-2388259.php
There are tons of links showing who made the decisions. I can’t find one linking Rigney from 83-97.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=12389&fb_source=message
The above link tells when he took an interest in sabermetrics and baseball, long before he joined Oakland.
http://www.nctimes.com/sports/baseball/professional/mlb/padres/article_46bd16d6-ecc9-5caa-a030-893e3f6bf3e8.html
This guy Bill Guyton sure knew who was responisble for it all.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/sandy-alderson-s-20-most-significant-moves-
1.2411013#1
Why doesn’t it say 20 most significant moves Rigney made? Because he didn’t.
http://www.sfexaminer.com/sports/teams/as/2011/09/general-manager-billy-beane-thrifty-no-genius
The above mentions Alderson and Branch Rickey sharing the same beliefs and also why writers and people like yourself scorn sabermetrics. Because you don’t understand it.
I have more but it’s just a waste of time because you’ll come up with some more BS to refute it but facts are facts.
Nothing in any of those links says Sandy made a single decision either!
You think he fired Martin over Eisenhardts objections?
If thats what your basing your case on your Case is thinner than a neutrino!
And all of them are articles posted long after the time in question!
We posted you articles FROM THAT TIME that said Eisenhardt took over GM DUTIES from Martin in regards to player personnel and Rigney reported to him so he could make those decisions.
The rest is all saying Sandy got things done but thats because his Boss ordered him to get it done!
Just as a gofer goes and gets you coffee thats light and sweet!
He doesn’t decide how you want it you tell him what to get and he goes and gets it!
You got nothing in all of those links other than Sandy was the guy who got it done but nothing about who decided.
We already established who made the decisions!
I never said he fired Martin over Eisenhardts objection. That’s you putting words in my mouth. Something you always do when backed into a corner.
Your link was 1982, 1982. Again I’m talking about 1983. The link shows his 20 most significant moves. Other links show he drafted Big Mac and Terry Steinbach in 1984. Plenty of proof right there. I don’t need to waste any more time going through my recycle bin.
You claimed Sandy decided to fire Martin by posting something about Sandy doing the firing in your link!
So your so full of shit it isn’t funny!
Yes precicely our links are from 1982 that when Martin was fired and Eisenhardt took over his GM duties! And what were those duties?
he ran player personnel! Which Rigney now was going to consult Eisenhardt on. So Rigney Eisenhardt pick whoever it is you want out of those two…THEY decided! Not Sandy!
Hi Joey — Personally I don’t want the sixty plus hours a week that goes with almost any executive job. I did it for several years and enough is enough. Maybe the rest of the guys you mention would want it. Metsie once said he doesn’t consider the money to be important if the goal is to be a winner. He’s never at a loss for words, so maybe he’ll consider your potential invitation and further my explanation. I’ll vouch for your interest in the job, just as I will for Fonzie. Every organization needs to be shaped up periodically and lots of wannabees who’ll apply. lol.
Fonzie,
Noticed you tended to ignore that Rigney’s title and area of responsibility didn’t change, only that he reported to the Executive Vice President (Sandy) in1989:
Assistant to the Executive Vice President, Baseball Matters
Nor in 1990:
Assistant to the Executive Vice President, Baseball Matters
And that his title didn’t change until 1991:
Assistant, Baseball Matters
Also, there is no mention that the owner, Walter Hass, stepped down as executive vice president after 1989 and there was only then one Vice President to report to.
And third, Fonzie, your contention is that Sandy made the decisions from the get-go, now you’re presenting evidence based on 1989? What about the years Rigney served as the Assistant to the President?
For somebody who understands corporate management, it’s amazing how one glosses over those three slightly important factors. You would be politely shown out the door of the executive offices backing your argument with that type of evidence.
One way to settle this – if somebody has the courage. Email Alderson and ask him who was responsible – not for authorizing – but for doing the legwork that led to the decisions on player personnel, draft picks, etc. Did Sandy decide who he wanted or did those underneath him come up with suggested recommendations and options instead? And if he was the one who determined what he wanted and sought it, ask him when he first started doing that – and what then was Bill Rigney doing all the time?
Noticed you tended to ignore that Rigney’s title and area of responsibility didn’t change, only that he reported to the Executive Vice President (Sandy) in1989:
Assistant to the Executive Vice President, Baseball Matters
I didn’t ignore his title. He was special asst to the president in baseball matters. You tried to make a claim that he made the decisions and Alderson didn’t. You said Alderson handled the legal end. That wasn’t the case clearly. He could’ve continued to handle the legal end and wouldn’t have been elevated to the GM position and VP of baseball Ops if that were the case. Eisenhardt remained the teams president and legal counsel. he was the one who put Alderson in charge. Rigney was on the broadcast booth in 83 and 84 how could he possibly handle GM responsibilities. That’s like sayng Keith Hernandez could while broadcasting Met games. He could consult though as a broadcaster.
Nor in 1990:
Assistant to the Executive Vice President, Baseball Matters
And that his title didn’t change until 1991:
Assistant, Baseball Matters
Also, there is no mention that the owner, Walter Hass, stepped down as executive vice president after 1989 and there was only then one Vice President to report to.
And third, Fonzie, your contention is that Sandy made the decisions from the get-go, now you’re presenting evidence based on 1989? What about the years Rigney served as the Assistant to the President.
My contention was and still is that Sandy made the decisions. I showed this because if Rigney was the one who built the 89 WS champs as you claim then what is he doing as Aldersons special assistant? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?
For somebody who understands corporate management, it’s amazing how one glosses over those three slightly important factors. You would be politely shown out the door of the executive offices backing your argument with that type of evidence.
Um no I wouldn’t. I have shown you plenty of various articles the first time you and Metsie started with this BS and you refused to acknowledge it so there was nothing wrong with my evidence. For the record, I have never been fired from a job in my life. I left on my own accord and I’m my own boss now.
One way to settle this – if somebody has the courage. Email Alderson and ask him who was responsible – not for authorizing – but for doing the legwork that led to the decisions on player personnel, draft picks, etc. Did Sandy decide who he wanted or did those underneath him come up with suggested recommendations and options instead? And if he was the one who determined what he wanted and sought it, ask him when he first started doing that – and what then was Bill Rigney doing all the time?
The entire staff is responsible for the legwork just like every other MLB team. Input from scouts and assistants are discussed in meetings and it’s up to the GM to make the final decision based on that input. I don’t know whats the issue here frankly. Rigney was the consultant. That’s what he was doing.
Does Sandy scout the players? Of course not, no GM does. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t make the final decision on draft picks. Most GM’s only stick around for the first few rounds of the draft. After that it’s usually the scouting director and and assistants.
Hi Fonzie,
Inferring on your part is not providing evidence of one doing the evaluation and contemplation. Articles that say he helped build the Oakland clubs have as much meaning as the one I attached which said the exact words about Rigney – which is why I attached it – to point out how one can’t judge by what is said about a person but what the specific acts are.
And so again, here are the words of Sandy Alderson talking about Rigney:
“When you talk about people who have contributed to our success, you have to single out Bill Rigney. His contributions have been enormous. He has been involved in every one of our player acquisitions since I came here in 1982. I’ve watched 600 or 700 games with Bill, and it’s been an education.”
“He has been involved in every one of our player acquisitions”? Within any organization, decision making for each specific area is delegated to a certain function within the flow chart and then coordinated with the departments underneath. He didn’t report to the general manager – the one you say was in charge of player decisions. His function – baseball matters – reported to the President.
The entire article in which Alderson says those words about Rigney is again attached so to confirm I didn’t make this up.
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/It-Musta-Been-Rigged-Bill-Rigney-dead-at-83-2949823.php#page-1
Now about my own personal experience, for twenty years I worked directly for a Vice President as his assistant and coordinator. I saw how he had specific responsibilities. I knew what the other Vice Presidents were doing and their functions were of different natures. Each had it’s own set of mission goals. They did not conflict with the other, though often had to be coordinated with the other (i.e., our capital budget, which I coordinated, had to be developed upon the requests of other Vice Presidents and then presented to Executive Vice President for Finance. He would then give us an idea of how much capital we had to work with. We then trimmed down the requests based on necessity, urgency of time frame, ability to phase out the work over longer periods making it less costly for fiscal years, etc.).
Also, none of these executives got to the position they were without decades of experience in their fields leading up to their titles. Same holds true with Sandy Alderson – he had decades of experience and education in the fields of legal and finance – the qualifications necessary to do the job of running an operation. And that was his function.
So you see, I have professional knowledge of how an executive structure works, how responsibilities are delegated, what it takes for one to get to be an office. Your contention that Sandy just stepped right into the job with no professional knowledge or experience and took over the role of making player personnel decisions has no merit.
In fact, here is a very revealing interview he had while still working for the commissioner which shows where his extensive expertise and talent is – business – and that his desire was to continue working with “operations” (when asked about becoming the Commissioner):
http://www.sportsradioservice.com/interviews/interview2.html
” Inferring on your part is not providing evidence of one doing the evaluation and contemplation. Articles that say he helped build the Oakland clubs have as much meaning as the one I attached which said the exact words about Rigney – which is why I attached it – to point out how one can’t judge by what is said about a person but what the specific acts are.”
No Joey you inferred. I showed facts. I showed the people that worked for Alderson that sd he was the one making the decisions and those decisions were based on his philosophies. You have no merrit you have conjecture. I showed evidence and you refuse to acknowledge it. That’s your problem because your agenda is so deep it makes you stubborn to the facts.
And so again, here are the words of Sandy Alderson talking about Rigney:
“When you talk about people who have contributed to our success, you have to single out Bill Rigney. His contributions have been enormous. He has been involved in every one of our player acquisitions since I came here in 1982. I’ve watched 600 or 700 games with Bill, and it’s been an education.”
“He has been involved in every one of our player acquisitions”? Within any organization, decision making for each specific area is delegated to a certain function within the flow chart and then coordinated with the departments underneath. He didn’t report to the general manager – the one you say was in charge of player decisions. His function – baseball matters – reported to the President.
The entire article in which Alderson says those words about Rigney is again attached so to confirm I didn’t make this up.
I never disputed that Rigney was involved in the decision making I said he wasn’t the one making those decisions. He was involved. Big difference. In Baseball decision making is done by the GM and VP of baseball operations in regards to baseball personnel and he was that person. How many times do I have to repeat he same damn thing. Show me someting linking Rigney making the call on a trade, signing or draft pick. Saying he was involved does not mean he was making the decisions.
That’s like saying Omar’s assitants who were invloved in the decision making process were the actual ones making the decisions. Special assistants which is what Rigney was do not make the decisions. They are involved in them. You have no idea how the front office structure of a baseball team works
“So you see, I have professional knowledge of how an executive structure works, how responsibilities are delegated, what it takes for one to get to be an office. Your contention that Sandy just stepped right into the job with no professional knowledge or experience and took over the role of making player personnel decisions has no merit”
What professional knowledge do you have that compares to professional sports? Please I’m dying to hear this. Your baseball knowledge is sorry to be so blunt, is lacking.
Also, none of these executives got to the position they were without decades of experience in their fields leading up to their titles. Same holds true with Sandy Alderson – he had decades of experience and education in the fields of legal and finance – the qualifications necessary to do the job of running an operation. And that was his function.
Actually one can come in as an outsider without experience and do the functions of a professional sports GM, Sandy wasn’t the first he won’t be the last. He was the first to use statistical analysis. Why the hell do you think he’s one of the most respected executives in the game? Because of what he accomplished as an outsider. Just because you don’t believe it can happen doesn’t mean it didn’t and it’s still happening. Do you need me to run off the list of names that are currently working as GM’s and Presidents of MLB clubs? Scroll up. Those guys all came into baseball with no professional backround. All those links show how and what went on and how he accomplished what he did. There’s two people that don’t want to deal with facts and unfortunately they both post here everyday.
And that interview you posted showed absolutely nothing. Again another waste of time article that proves nothing about what he did in Oakland. Did you even bother to read the articles I posted that explain everything? I think it’s hilarious how you took out of that interview that he couldn’t have been the one making the personnel decisions. Really hilarious the things you try and pass off as proof. You should do a comedy routine you’re quite funny.lol. Nice try though A for effort
You showed no facts whatsoever what you did was establish that Sandy was called GM and IFERRED that meant he made all decisions.
You took a slide show that showed moves a GM made without a shred of proof that he was the one who decided to make them in the first place!
We have showed proof that Sandy was not given the full powers of a GM despite having the title as Eisenhardt took over many of the GM decisions making from Martin and used Rigney as his assistant in those decisions such as who would replace Martin! Who would be brought in to develop the players they were about to get, and to then give Sandy a school on Baseball that he would not get to use to make decisions on until 1991!
Hi Metsie and Hi Fonzie,
Metsie, I don’t think we need expire ourselves anymore on this particular subject since it has been made obvious to us that no experience in baseball is required to formulate player personnel from the selection of draft picks through to the trades, signings and releases made on a major league level.
It’s been well documented through the praises made by those working with Sandy regarding his influence on them with statistical analysis – though they don’t specify what specific work he did more than how he applied it more than making it an organizational requirement – and all the articles that say how Sandy “built” the championship Oakland teams, even though the same word has been applied to Bill Rigney in other articles.
In the case of athletic competition, computer analysis is intellect without substance. One can gain knowledge of factual information from it but derive no understanding of it’s roots and meaning. It is void of all elements that do not apply to logic.
As one can see on page 147 of the book “Statistics for Management and Economics”, Sandy Alderson is being praised for new revelations and insights like “he concluded that before three outs everything was possible but that after three outs nothing was possible” and “to score runs is to minimize each player’s probability of making an out”.
An example of statistical supporters failing to acknowledge this was understood and applied to the game all along. And, as mentioned above, facts without substance is not knowledge.
But let’s forget about all that. It has been proven that when it comes to baseball matters, no experience is required.
http://books.google.com/books?id=5rnoaeL5bW0C&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=sandy+alderson+oakland+general+manager+with+no+experience&source=bl&ots=v_sCdZAB64&sig=0y2G3oFzcxZaFRP6DjekpArZgB4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8SoXUOb0BuLv0gH2u4C4CQ&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false
And that is why in that interview Sandy Alderson said he is against giving up an out. So with a runner on first, one hits away. With a runner on second and nobody out, advancing the runner to third is out of the question.