18
2012
Despite Late Rally, Mets Fall Short In 4-3 Loss To Nationals
An article by 
Chris Young was victimized in late innings as has been the theme, the bullpen faltered and despite a ninth inning rally including two solo home runs, the Mets lost the second game of the series, 4-3.
Game Recap
Chris Young had a pretty solid outing, going six innings allowing two runs on six hits, walking one and striking out two. Young was good for the most part, but as has been the case in his last few starts he gave up a late-inning homer that put the Nationals on the board first. The big problem with Young is not endurance, but his variety and sharpness of pitches after the sixth inning. Young does rely fairly heavily on control and drawing weak contact, so that will always doom Young third time around the order.
The bullpen had some major work today, with Miguel Batista allowing two runs on three hits with one strikeout in two-thirds of an inning. Batista wasn’t particularly ineffective, with one hit coming off a freak ricochet off of Miguel Batista’s shin. However, the most egregious sin was leaving a fastball down the middle that Steve Lombardozzi drilled for a two-RBI double. Josh Edgin came out for a third of an inning, and got Bryce Harper to fly out. Jon Rauch came out to pitch the eighth, and had his best outing in a few weeks, striking out two and allowing no hits. Rauch seemed to have some extra zip on his fastball, turning it up to 93 MPH.
The bullpen still struggles, and Jesus wept. Reinforcements cannot come soon enough.
Offensively, the Mets were kept in check by Jordan Zimmerman for the course of his start, but came alive in the late innings. A Lucas Duda RBI double set up Andres Torres for an RBI single, but in a boneheaded move tried to stretch it into a double down by two. The real comeback began in the ninth, when to leadoff the inning David Wright sent a blast to right field for a solo HR. After Davis & Duda struck out swinging, Jason Bay sent a moonshot off the LF foul pole to bring the Mets within one. Yetserday’s hero, Jordany Valdespin came to the plate to try and recreate his magic from the night before, but struck out swinging to end the game.
Outside of the baserunning error, the Mets were aggressive at the plate today, and it didn’t translate into hits.
Turning Point: Miguel Batista giving up the freak hit. If it goes up the middle, Murphy has a play on it if not Tejada to end the inning. Instead, it caroms into no-mans land and keeps the inning alive.
Game Notes: David Wright – 3 for 4 with an RBI and a run on a solo HR. Can he play any better? On a day where nine hits are totaled, Wright accounts for a third of them. Jason Bay went 2 for 4 with an RBI and a run on a solo HR.
On Deck: The Mets will look to finish the series against the Nationals with a win, sending R.A. Dickey to the mound against Gio Gonzalez. Game time is 12:35 P.M.
About the Author: Sean Kenny
Sean Kenny is a student/writer currently attending school at the City College of New York. For more Mets news, notes and thoughts follow him on twitter @TheSeanKenny
72 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 25 | 18 | .581 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 21 | .523 | 2.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 23 | .477 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 17 | 24 | .415 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 12 | 32 | .273 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/19/2013
Recent Comments
- Metsie: on Keep Daniel Murphy In The Leadoff Spot: Let us all know when you have...
- Paul: on Sacking Terry Collins Now Would Be Unfair: In 2+ years, every Mets fan thinks...
- Metsie: on Keep Daniel Murphy In The Leadoff Spot: No what IS telling however is you...
- Connor O'Brien: on Keep Daniel Murphy In The Leadoff Spot: Nope there you yourself admitted that it...
- Connor O'Brien: on Keep Daniel Murphy In The Leadoff Spot: Please don't talk down to him like...
MMO Mets Chat
Need Tickets To The Mets Game?
Check Out These Great MLB Links!
Photographs From Gordon Donovan
5363 Fans Follow Us On Twitter!
1269 Fans Like Us On Facebook!
2341 Fans Read Our Feed!
1702 Fans Subscribe via Daily Email!
Interesting Post Game show where Bobby Ojeda said Mets need a reliever in the worst way, but regardless of what Mets GM keeps saying, “I don’t think he’s gonna do it, I don’t think he wants to do it!”
He accused Alderson of paying the team and fans nothing but lip service!
Hi Maniac,
Oh, am I so sorry I missed that. Bobby O. really went out on the limb for such accusation could easily cost him his place in the organization. That’s gutsy.
The season seems to be going down the tubes quickly. I would like to ask those who support Sandy if they are still having a fun time watching us get off to decent starts under Sandy the past two years with no help from the front office other than discarding key players and replacing them with bargain basement ones instead of helping Terry and the kids with the promise of a “new vision” for the future I am sure there are a lot of Met fans out there who are not happy with this front office – especially because a team which started off so well twice in a row was doesn’t seem to have the need to go so “long-term” vision which including re-building from scratch.
I feel that Alderson has some game plan that none of us want to hear so he sort of says what we want (“We’re buyers”) but keeps waiting. The ironic thing is that he did this with Oakland too, especially in making moves that showed he was waving the white flag, yet his team would stay somewhat close through August nonetheless.
Minaya would have made a move by now, but it would probably be one we’d cry over at the end of the season. I don’t know what is worse, waiting way too long or making band-aid deals that end of costing the team the future. I’m almost certain he could get Broxton and Shoppach for reasonable prospects or even a couple of current Mets (Kirk still has value despite his slump; may not if he keeps sliding downhill)
The “bargain basement” comment reminds me of what they got for K-Rod last year. Payroll dump or not, the Mets got lame players for a reasonably good closer last year. Ironically, the Brewers are asking for bonafide prospects for the same player and he still has a wad of money coming to him.
I though he’d follow through on getting “A” reliever after Tuesday’s meltdown. I hoped again for a deal overnight after Wednesday’s loss at the hands of Batista. Still …….. waiting …….
you point out a key problem with the “they should have done something already” concept. Outside of churning your internal options (which teams traditionally do first, and they have been doing), you are dependent on other teams to make a deal. And if you want to “jump” the market, you are going to have to overpay.
Using your KRod example, the Brewers want a top prospect back + you eat the salary. Not likely they expect to get it, but that is their first pencil. As the market (overall) actually develops, they will get more teams involved and eventually take a more reasonable price.
so a roundabout way of saying, you could have had someone decent (and to be honest, none of these names being bandied about are the 2nd coming of Mo Rivera), but it would have cost you a Harvey or Kirk for a rental RP.
The ironic thing is that he did this with Oakland too, especially in making moves that showed he was waving the white flag, yet his team would stay somewhat close through August nonetheless”
ARE YOU SERIOUS?!!?!!?!?
When oakland stayed in contention?? What are you talking about??? He won in oakland when he spent money and because his main guys were juiced out their mind…
Last 6 season in oakland were a disaster!!!:
68-94
51-63
67-77
78-84
65-97
74-88
PATHETIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop sucking up to alderson, he sucks as a GM period…
Bobby O (in my expert opinion) is the smartest (baseball) person on SNY. I even put him slightly ahead of Mex and Ron.
The Mets management can easily be questioned on a lot of decisions, but they have always given their media personalities to be fair and honest and they don’t use them as propaganda tools.
I’ve always wondered if Bobby would even be a candidate to be a pitching coach somewhere in the Mets system.
I think he’s right too…as much as we all know we need a upgrade in the bullpen, I don’t think Sandy is going to make any move the would be considered to be a “difference maker”. Now we can argue about why he’s doing this, but i really think it’s because he’s not willing to alter his “master plan” for a chance to compete this year. As much as we want to get excited about how well the teams been playing this year, but they are pretty close to where they were at this point last year. The team then tanked after the trades of Beltran and K-Rod. So now the real question is…Will Sandy decide to sell now that the team is in a funk and quickly dropping out of contention?
Instead of being buyers this year, I predict we will see Santana exit as a salary dump. Don’t count on much in return. After that, we will still not have starting pitcher as a priority.
Agree that Bobby O has it right. Sandy A. has given up on this season and is playing games with the fans. How crazy that he and Collins have all this confidence in Bay, along with Batista, Parnell and the rest of this worst bullpen in Mets modern history. Stop giving us crap about his vision. If he’s giving up, then be honest, let the rookies take over and make this season a chance to get them acclimated to the majors. That would at least give the fans some fun without suffering through these dreadful blown saves.
Young pitched a good game rebounding from his last start vs the Braves. Zimmermann unfortunately pitched better shutting the Mets out for 6 innings. Bay with 2 hits one of which was a HR that prob bought him more playing time now.
Batista comes in and doubles the Nats lead at which point the Mets despite 2 solo hr’s just could not over come a 4-1 deficit. The Mets were bound to have a losing streak longer than 4 eventually just hope they can keep it at this point from getting to double digits as they are now at 6 games. I have to think Batista’s days are soon coming to an end. A bad start on Saturday from him may be as far as he gets.
Keep liking what I have seen from the Edgin kid though. A loss 2morrow and the Mets drop to .500 for only the 3rd time this year and the 1st since May 4th.
Need a win.
LGM!
Don’t you just hope that Batista is DFA before Saturday? His WHIP, which is now 1.74, is not acceptable for a reliever and he should not be this Saturday’s starter!
If he gives them a good start Saturday he can continue to start where I am concerned. It’s just that right now even players like Byrdak who have been the most reliable is struggling. Even the kid who I like his stuff is sporting a 10 plus era. People can say what they want but Francisco was getting the job done b4 he went down. He won’t be back for at least another 2 weeks I think but I’d rather have him out there in the 9th than Parnell.
Despite the 1st 3 games after the break vs Atl these last 2 I have seen 1 thing that makes me believe the Mets can rebound from this recent losing streak and that is the starting pitching has pitched good vs their div rival. Mets will only go as far as the starters take them. I expect a solid performance from Dickey today but if he struggles I admittedly will be concerned.
Offensively Wright can not carry a team, never could. the rest of the team has to produce as well.
A loss 2day and they will be .500 as they come home to face the Dodgers. Can they stop this losing streak b4 it goes any further? I am rooting that they can.
Hi North,
Since we all have been on an emotional roller coaster as far as Francisco is concerned and might not be looking at his performances fairly, wondering if we have any information on how often he came into a game and caused the lead to shrink or the deficit to increase putting us further behnd or just needed to be relieved in the ninth because he was putting either a tie game or lead in jeopardy.
That might be more conclusive than wins, losses, saves and blown saves. So often a reliever comes into a game without any of this added to his record.
It’s a hard call – but to be fair, those of us who supported KRod despite getting heart palpuations each time he took the mound must do the same for Francisco – if that is more the case.
I like what I see also. Why not have him close a game. He was a closer in minors and should be more comfortable there than early in games. Why do our rookies always have to go through seasons of “adjustment” and other teams rookies don’t.
mets are going from buyers to sellers at a disturbing rate
agreed.
Yes, and it will be Santana who gets sold.
That was no late rally by Mets just window dressing by Bay to try and save his job, why was he playing today after Spin’s game last night, TC is too loyal to a fault.
Why was Batista pitching to Lombardozzin despite the richochet off of him, why have Edgin in BP if you bring him in a batter too late?
Saving Edgin for a .276 hitter or the current important stop the scoring hitter?
You blew this call TC by not using Edgin sooner.
Torres takes us out of possible man on first, steals 2nd, maybe scores on hit situation; he wasn’t even close at 2b, sheesh what the hell is going on around here.
This staff is good but really Bay needs to hit early in game when it counts not a window dressing HR in 9th.
Guess Murph, Ike, Tejada have all decided to take off the Nats series and save the hits for the LA one this weekend.
Even with RA pitching tomorrow, the loss Tuesday night and TC with his gut check, etc talk won’t change unless someone other than David is hitting, this late in season he can’t carry team like he did early in season when BP was not as bad.
With only nine percent of all minor league players ever making it to the big leagues at all, the premise of building a team for the future mostly from within will shortchange the efforts of those who do make it. Just ask Thole, Davis, Murphy, Tejada, Duda, Gee, Neise, Turner, even the slumping Kirk if they felt shortchanged both last season and this.
Almost the same position we were in last year at this time.
Still competing before the ASB and possibly being a buyer, tanking coming out of the ASB and becoming sellers.
It will be interesting to see what happens over the next 10 days or so.
Sandy alderson is like a guy who forgot his wife’s anniversary or valentine’s day and at the last minute he goes out and try to get a gift, yet everything is sold out so he ends up picking up something at a CVS or Gas station. Lol., this is just getting comical and sad. 6 Straight Losses, 7 out of 8, and the GM who know is feeling the heat is nowhere to be found, Last night was ojeda blasting him, this morning was Craig Carton who said: “all the players who are helping this team be in contention or whatever, those are all minaya’s guys, the guys who were supposed to help the club etc, those are all sandy alderson’s guys, and that bullpen has just been atrocious”
The situation is getting a little hot for SA, now he’d realize this ain’t Oak or SD, the fans, media can be pretty nasty in NY. Good luck old man, Last year was omar’s fault, this year, well.. It’s been on you
Didn’t you hear Alderson say he does not want to upset the master plan for 2013 and 2014?Get your World Series tickets now..
Sigh, shoot Gary, I almost forgot… You’re right… Let met contact mets office RIGHT NOW.. In alderson, the CORE trust…
Again, I will re-iterate the point. You cannot play a 162 game season and wait for the late innings to start hitting the ball and scoring runs. You cannot rely on the same 3 hitters to get you by, while the others barely contribute consistently.
Again, everybody looks at the Mets and says everything can and will be fixed with bullpen help.
Everything would have been fixed if they added a dominant bullpen arm in April, May. Why? Because Wright was an MVP carrying the team. Because Dickey and Santana were throwing lights out.
You cannot sustain that type of performance for 162, or at least you cannot rely on it.
1 even 2 bullpen arms will do nothing to fix the fact the Mets get little to nothing out of their corner OF spots, their 1B, and their C offensively PLUS their CF.
It will do nothing to fix the problem except make people who want to use the bullpen as a scapegoat feel better for a week.
You can’t get shut down by Ben Sheets, Ross Detwiler, Zimmerman and say “the bullpen is the problem.”
The bullpen is no good right now, concede. But you cannot go back to April/May and win those games they blew. It’s impossible.
You have to worry about July 19-Game 162. And the way this team is performing, the bullpen won’t be put in many spots to win or lose games they SHOULD win.
Thanks for the novella… Your lines of pure BS won’t stop the anti Alderson fury that has finally and rightfully taken over. You and your LORD….FAIL FAIL FAIL… Take him back to the Dominican and re check those birth records. PS::::: Write us another article about the great bullpen Sandy the fraud has provided go ahead and blame the offense for him screwing up royally. Gee sandy’s #1 prioroty oover the Winter was the bullpen. FAIL FAIL FAIL.
Amazin: I want you to know that the vile you spew on this site never brings anything to any convo. You compared Sandy Alderson to Joe Paterno yesterday – which nullifies any views you ever have on this site in my view.
All your words do is prove you are only here to be hateful. Don’t bother responding to my posts
I would say that Amazin’ is a Yankee fan.
Your point is valid…
The bullpen sucks and needs to be fixed that is obvious.
But the Offence has come out completely flat. Ike and Duda still aren’t there and despite positive signs from Bay, a solo shot in the 9th isn’t getting it done.
We can love the late inning rallies, but this team needs some crocked numbers to start the game…and Torres needs to pull his head out of his ass.
Wait, wait… Are you serious USMF?? I get thrown in my face how the mets are one of the best offensive teams, do you expect them to score 7 runs EVERY GAME? we could’ve been 2-3 this road trip EASILY had the bullpen done its job… The defense of the bullpen is just insane… Can we please stop this? i know you guys love SA the Guy, but as a GM he has done an atrocious job to say the least.. Come on guys..
Easy Alex, I’m not trying to defend the bullpen..they suck and if they blew only half the games they did this year the Mets could be in first (or close to it, I’d have to look up the numbers). I was also one of the ones who was very unimpressed with the “improvements” made to the pen this past off season.
Other than the Mets ability to get the two out run, they’ve been pretty weak. Other than Wright, Hairston and Tejada (who’s missed a ton of time to injury, how’s that for irony), everyone has under-performed.
I was just saying that, despite the obvious blown chances by the pen, the Mets bats have done nothing to help coming out of the break and are part of the reason why they are in this current funk.
But don’t take that as defending the pen…they will be the reason why this team does not make the playoffs.
Hit reply to jessep talking to all. It’s not the bullpen? Last night and the night before the Mets had the game won. Prior to Batista the score was 2-1 then given his innate ability to allow the other team to score; 4-1. We came up and hit two dingers which would have put us ahead. Of course that would have brought in Parnell. So frustrating! Edgin was a bright spot.
It is common practice BTW to go for second when there is a question that the runner coming around third will be in a potential play at the plate. I do not have a lot of faith in the speed or baserunning of Duda as the coaches do not as well. I am not sure that Goodwin didn’t send Torres to make sure the ball was cut off.
In any case we are light years ahead of expectations. A bullpen acquisition will not be a savior and jettisoning Batista is a great idea. When he is loosening up I almost could turn the game off.
Buyers or sellers the Mets need to step up and become either. Collins having a team meeting over Beato and Thole having a spat and the current downswing is not a good sign.We’ll see. This season, so far, has always been on the brink of disaster. Perhaps we have MET our destiny for 2012. If there is anything to the youth movement and the power of the clubhouse we stay around for a while. We need a big dose of positive reinforcement. You can’t have ESPN moments forfeited by the bullpen and expect emotions and camaraderie to carry you through. As a fan watching this three game series we have won and lost games in the span of two innings late in the game at least three times. If your hitting wakes up who cares when as long as you secure the lead. We haven’t been able to secure anything but long winded posts.
Wait……
Hoegy, thanks for the reply.
Here’s my issue. You cannot expect a bullpen to be perfect every night. You can’t look at a 2-1 score PRIOR to the pen coming in and blame them for the loss. I’m sorry, but that’s not fair.
I am not suggesting they haven’t blown games but… you cannot score 1 run and look at the pitchers and say “thanks for losing us the game.”
You are using the 9th inning as hindsight to say “had the 7th gone differently they would have won.” Sure, but how do you know the 9th inning would have gone as it did had the 7th inning never happened?
The offense over 6 innings got 4 hits off Zimmerman. You cannot put your entire hopes on beating a closer in the 9th.
Tejada, Wright and Murphy are doing enough. They have off days as any hitter does, but I don’t think its fair to expect more from them. That means 5 other spots in your order are letting you down.
My point again is, having Huston Street doesn’t win the Mets that game last night.
Through 6 innings last night, the biggest hit the Mets got was from Chris Young. Huston Street, or no Batista doesn’t change that.
You rely less on your bullpen when your offense and starting pitching work as they should. When you have 5 starting hitters combining for a .237 batting average and your best two SP’s sliding in performance, it doesn’t matter who is in your pen from July 31-Game 162.
jessep…
the ” having Huston Street doesn’t win the Mets that game last night.” is valid, but to play devils advocate, if Street is on the team then Batista wouldn’t be pitching in that inning or even on the roster so we don’t know how the game would have turned out. You know playing for one run late in a game is different than playing for 3-4 runs right?
If Street is on the team, then possibly the Mets wouldn’t have been wearing down the pen as much lately and they would have been stronger going in to last night…maybe the pen wouldn’t be pressing as much…maybe Batista would have been pulled after getting hit in the shin instead of staying in to give up that two run dbl.
That’s what baseball so interesting and unique. As much as it’s a game of inches and a game of one pitch from one individual throwing to another…it is a game that one game could have repercussions for several days or weeks or even longer. So as much as we want to look at one inning or one AB, we also have to be aware of what happened earlier in the game or even the series that setup that situation.
So I don’t know if adding Street would change the final outcome of the season, it could easily be argued that if the had Street in the 9th and moved everyone in the pen down one spot and they got rig of the “weakest” performer, then these past two series would have played out differently.
USMF: How do you know? You don’t
The point is when the game is 2-1, its easy to say the loss is the bullpens fault because the Mets bats finally woke up in the 9th. But that’s unfair and its letting people who are a problem get off the hook.
Again people here like to act like I’m saying the bullpen is good. I’m not.
I’m saying they are not the only thing that needs fixing. You cannot change the outcome of April or May games. You can complain about them all you want, nothing will change.
Before July 31 the Mets aren’t adding a bullpen arm because it gives them some games back from earlier this year. They are adding for July 31-Game 162.
My point is, if Duda-Ike-Bay-Torres-Kirk-Thole continue to play below average and Santana-Dickey cannot do 70% of what they did in the 1st half, then it doesn’t matter if the Mets add 1 bullpen arm. You cannot win 90 games out of 162 with just 5 or 6 guys holding up their end of the deal.
1 bullpen arm doesn’t fix everything. It puts a bandaid on things that people complain about the most.
Sure lot of things need fixing…But NONE more important than the Bullpen who account for 42% of our Losses!
No matter how bad you think they are in actuality vs perception that pen is the difference between leading the division and merely fighting for a Wildcard spot!
Further proof that your Reliever loss # is skewed.
The Reds bullpen has contributed to 35% of their losses.
By the way you act, that means they are terrible.
Yet some would argue they have the best bullpen in baseball.
You have to consider more when evaluating a bullpen.
What was the score when they came in? What inning, how much work are you expecting from them? How did the offense perform?
The bullpen is a PR friendly fix because they make you most mad because if they lose the game you remember that instead of the failed opportunities against Ross Detwiler.
Jessep,
When looking at the number of losses the Reds, or any team’s bullpen accounted for, one must also look for the number of wins that they contributed to as well.
Right now the Reds are eleven games over .500 when we are just one. Their bullpen must have had some positive impact on that as well.
Keep Dreaming….
Thier pen cost them 14 games and won 18!
Ours cost us 19 games and won 11!
A net difference of 12 games better than ours….
Where would this team be if we had thier staff?
Answer 4 games ahead in the division!
Show us how the other players caused all those losses?
I dare you!
I know you won’t because you know full well what I’m saying is right!
jessep, I will turn back on you… How do you know?
I agree that this losing streak isn’t all on the bullpen. Fact is, the hitting hasn’t been there, Santana and RAD have had poor starts and even with good starts from Niese and Young, their previous starts were bad. Let’s not forget the poor defence and bad base running too (*Cough* Torres *Cough*)
Ike isn’t back yet, Duda is slumping and Bay has a lot to prove, so yes there is an issue there.
But you can’t argue that the Pen ins’t the area of greatest concern right now. I’d go back to last year when we had a pretty good pen until K-Rod was traded and back when we had a good pen until Wags got injured and was out. Even losing Fransisco (as bad as he is) has had a very negative effect on the pen. Losing a strong closer has proven to have huge repercussions throughout the pen…so I’d argue that adding a strong closer will have huge positive effect on every relievers performance.
Will adding a closer fix everything? probably not, but it’s the most glaring issue on this team. The Bats will hit again and the rotation should be able to rebound. I don’t see this pen doing that.
jessep, usmf,
I have no problem with your points. I am not arguing that the bats, or lack thereof, did not contribute to the loss; that is certain. However, bringing in Batista creates the need to be up by at least three runs. That is consistent and he is going to start Saturday to be assessed?
In that 9th inning if either Davis or Duda did not swing at pitches out of the strike zone the game might have very well been tied.
Jessep you stated that you RELY less on your bullpen when the SP and the hitters are doing what they are supposed to. I get that but you cannot rely on our bullpen in any fashion at this point. You have to rely on the bullpen during the course of a season. Street may have changed things that is conjecture. Tejada, Wright and Murphy are doing their thing. Others are not doing so as consistent. Murphy is not starting today.
I hope we have an onslaught of offense, we sure are due and Dickey throws a complete game.
Interestingly enough I don’t care if he gives up 5 runs as long as we have more and we can stay out of that black hole bullpen.
It really does work both ways…it’s hard for the pen to come out every night and pitch 3+ innings knowing that they can’t afford to give up even one run…it’s hard for the rotation to pitch well knowing that they have little margin of error because they aren’t getting run support and the bullpen has been taxed and will probably give up runs and it’s hard for an offence to produce knowing that they must score 5-6 runs every game because the starters aren’t as dominate now as they once were and the pen is struggling.
I do think some of the blame goes on the offense because of their lack of ability to score, especially score early. I don’t know the numbers, but I’m pretty sure that the team that scores first wins the game by a huge majority, especially if they score multiple runs early.
That isn’t letting the Bullpen off the hook at all, The fact is, they have been horrible all year and are costing the Mets more wins then they are creating. It is the Number One Issue with the team and they can’t win with it setup the way it is now.
4th out of 6 in runs scores. Yeah blame the offense, and not the great bullpen created by Sandy Alderson in his own failed image. We get it…. Sandy built the pen so its great. Relaity is irrelevant. What flavor is your kool aide?
This is the craziest argument I’ve been in on this site…are people even reading what I’m saying?
I’m arguing with jessep that the pen sucks and needs to be fixed and I’m arguing with everyone else that the pen isn’t the only issue right now and not the only reason why they are losing.
It’s very easy to blame everything on the pen right now. AND YES THE PEN NEEDS TO BE FIXED! IT IS BLOWING TOO MANY GAMES!!!
But we also have to realize that during this losing streak we’ve seem bad hitting and bad starting pitching too. We can blame three maybe four losses on the pen, but that still leaves the rest of the team on the hook for the other losses. Our pen is a weakness, but our strengths are not bailing out our weakness.
And we will re-iterate the point by pointing out that your savior of a GM is not going to just have those players drop from the Sky he needs to get moving and make a move to get them!
This front Office seems to have a lot of meetings where the only thing they actually decide on in them is when to meet next!
Meetings are useless unless you actually make decisions in them that you follow through on and stick to!
This is why whenever anyone around here says Sandy has a steady hand and sticking to his plan I question them to tell the rest of us what the plan is so maybe someone could clue Sandy into what it is!
Cause he doesn’t seem to have one other than Wait and see what happens maybe something good will come!
Thats not a plan it’s a Prayer!
Metsie, I’m not really a “god” guy but you understand how ridiculous you and others look when you tell ME that Sandy Alderson is my “savior.”
I’ve never said that in my life, nor have I honestly seen somebody else say it. The only people who say it are the ones like you…
“This front Office seems to have a lot of meetings where the only thing they actually decide on in them is when to meet next”
You don’t even know anything that goes on behind closed doors. This statement is just you making things up. You have absolutely no clue what goes on. None.
You realize there is more to running a team than talking about what relief pitcher to get before July 31 to shut people up right? Ever think they meet about oh I don’t know
What do we do about our corner OF’s being below average
Our 1b still being terrible
Our catcher not progressing as he should
Our CF being poor.
Or maybe they meet to discuss development of players in the minors?
Name me a team in MLB that has made a trade with a big impact on their playoff hopes to this point.
You can’t.
So doesn’t that mean that every front office is failing by your standards?
Jessup you may not actually be a Sandy God worshiper…
But you certainly do appear to be thier media arm and they count on you to make up the crap they cling to in defense of him!
Call the Duck a Duck!
Stop making excuses for his bad moves and stop trying to cast “REASONABLE DOUBT” in hopes that it will get the defendant off the hook!
He screwed up BIG TIME with his two years of focus on a Bullpen that has gotten worse each time he tried to fix it!
The only way his Butt gets out of the fire now is to fix his mistakes by making better moves from here on out.
Why did he make a mistake? Well we have been telling you guys this from day one!
Buy cheap, Get CRAP!
I don’t care what his baseball card said the truth is they were as cheap as they were for a damn good reason! No one wanted to pay them much!
Arrogance in a front office happens all the time!
Most bad moves are the result of a FO going after someone else’s failed player because they think they are smarter than their peers and will be able to get something from that player the others could not.
And it almost NEVER works out!
You buy at K-Mart you must expect that the item you buy won’t last long and require you to buy multiple units to get what you need.
Well those cheap units did not get the job done!
All that Payroll flexability we got cost us performance.WHile K-Rod might have gotten 17+ MIl he also would have won us about 5 games that the closer by committee has cost us this year.
Beltran if resigned could have won even more and solved the problem tyou percieve we have now especially the RH Power bat we seemingly are missing!
Pagan would be one of our best hitting OFers if he was still here and what did we get for him? Pretty much nothing! We didn’t even save MONEY on that deal…We got taken!
I don’t care if you like Sandy or not nor do I think you have an altar to him…Your posts are more about extricating yourself from your own opinions stated in the offseason than anytyhing to do with Sandy, I get that!
You were wrong but it’s not a big deal, and it would pass in time if you didn’t spend the rest of the time trying to justify it by blaming the rest of the team for the record of a Bullpen that has cost us 42% of all our losses!
Sure the team can be blamed for some of them but not all of them.
That same team you blaming is reponsible for those 11 WIns they have because the bats saved thier ass from the fire after blowing a save!
Again your 42% is a joke. It’s the easiest thing to prove wrong.
If they are “responsible” for 42% of the team’s losses, then they are also responsible for 25% of their wins.
What % is the offense responsible for?
No your unsubstantiated finger pointing is the joke here!
Your argument is basically if the offense would score 12 runs a game our Bullpen wouldn’t have the record it does!
Thats just rediculous to say about a team who is 11th in run scoring, 13th in BA, 10th in OBP and 8th in the league in RBI!
Way ahead of Cincy whose pen has a 18-14 record without having better players to get them there!
Your whole argument is an unsubstatiated joke!
100% with you Jessp on the lack of production from other hitters in lineup; it doesn’t mean they have to have explosive week or so but consistent hitting when at bat, moving runner over, sac fly when needed, not trying to hit HR, Hairston, every at bat.
Consistent hitting when David hits or doesn’t has hurt this team, this is why the mental approach that we will eventually score in game takes away from you need to score early to take pressure off pitcher.
Lastly this is the one thing that Jose brought to team that we are lacking AND Torres was supposed to provide, that Jose would get on base, steal or upset starter and a big inning was always possible but not with this team that has no speed whatsoever at top of lineup so if they don’t string hits together then they don’t score plus the lack of power early in game also stinks.
Bay’s HR meant nothing, it was needed when runners were on and David was at 2B but he hits one in 9th and it’s supposed to be Wow, Bay is back, terrible, terrible and embarrassed is what this team should be that they have an opportunity to make a run but it is all left to David, No Han and RA, that will never work.
A great bullpen doesn’t make your outfield, 1b, or c better offensively. It’s all about PR.
There are more weaknesses on this team than the bullpen and its gonna take time to fix them. Getting a 3 month rental reliever doesn’t fix anything except make people feel warm and fuzzy.
You cannot erase past losses. You won’t win games in the future with 62% of your lineup hitting .230
The bullpen is the biggest weakness of the team. It’s beeen holding us back the entire season.
The Mets hitting this year has actually been good and the SP has been very good. The Mets offense has scored the 11th most runs in the MLB, and 4th in the NL. The starters have the 6th best ERA in the MLB. They also have the 6th most K’s in the MLB, and the 5th best BAA.
the hitting has been above average, and the starters have been one of the best in the MLB – So, they haven’t been the issue. The pen is the problem. As you know they have to worst ERA in the majors(And it’s gone up since we last talked), and has been blowing games left and right.
If the Mets are going to fix something, it has to be the bullpen because it’s the biggest weak point of the team.
“There are more weaknesses on this team than the bullpen ”
Yes maybe but none are GREATER or cost us more games than that bullpen!
Now it’s the offense fault???? LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I cannot believe this… The excuses for sandy frauderson continue, last year was minaya’s, then the wilpon’s, then reyes’ fault, then the injuries, then the SP, now it’s the offense…. My god.. what’s next? It seems the blame goes else where BUT where sandy put his imprint..
Whatever happened to Sandy’s “good day”? All but forgotten now!
Lmao, well,we follow that he had a good day with “the bullpen is not as bad as it seems” Lmao…. we’re past that maskman
Yeah now the story is it isn’t the Bullpen who lost us 42% of our losses.
It’s everyone else!
The TEAM they want to blame is playing above .500. The Pen record is somewhere in the .300-.400 range an the problem is NOT the pen it’s everyone else!
Yeah Right!
Seems to be going back to his opinion of this team before the good day post hoping people will buy that crock of crap a second time!
again you’re using them as a scapegoat and having fun with numbers just to ignore the fact they aren’t the only problem. And their impact is diminished if the other problems are fixed. The other problems are more fixable with a reliable fix.
So by your stats then isn’t the bullpen responsible for 25% of the Wins?
How many of the L came in a game the offense under performed? How many of the L came when they came in to a tie game?
You’re continuing to try and make it sound like I am saying the bullpen is innocent. I’m not.
I’m saying there’s more blame to go around and if you FIX the offense and FIX the SP, your need for better bullpen arms decreases significantly.
If you were being honest, what is harder to predict. How hitters perform, how starting pitchers perform or how bullpen arms will perform?
There’s no way you should say bullpen is easier to predict.
So you’re acting like its a guarantee to get better bullpen arms here while ignoring LF/RF/1B/C/CF/SP.
So you’re banking on the least predictable outcome to fix everything rather than looking at the bigger picture.
Yeah those bats that hit a 3 run HR in the 9th to take the lead cost us the game the Bullpen blew right?
Jeez come back to reality dude!
There is only one team who has a bulpen with more losses and it is Milwalkee.
They are 15-22 3 more losses but 4 more wins!
We are 4th in the league in Save opportunites (38)…
14th in Saves (22)!
Thats a 57% conversion rate and those are ALL games where the TEAM your trying to blame now all DID THIER JOB!
You can’t even blame the starters for overusing them as they are 26th in IP!
God knows how bad they would look if they were actually on a team that didn’t have starters who get as deep into games as ours do!
So please I’m not scapegoating them they are the cause of all of our problems!
And the leading reason why our above .500 team wins fewer than .400 when the Pen gets the decision.
I’ll ask you again to show us what you think you have here on thier behalf.
Tell us what thier record is in games where the starter leaves tied, then behind, then with a lead.
You will find most of thier wins are when tied or behind, Almost all of thier losses are when given a lead to protect and giving it up!
MEtsie, let me help you with your math here so you can shut jesseP up, if the bullpen is responsible of 42% of our losses, and only 25% of our winning, isn’t that a losing record regardless???
Last i checked, 42 trumps 25… and if you use the 25-42 your winning PCT will be a pathetic 373 % rate… No matter how you look at it, this bullpen is the worst in the league, not only can they not protect a lead, they can not keep a game close either.. So… Whether sandy had a good day or you jesseP think the bullpen is not as bad as it seems, IT IS A VERY BAD BULLPEN!!!
Well all you need to know is that the only way for a Bullpen to get a loss at all is they gave up the lead!
Only two types of games that can happen in….
Games they came in tied (which accounts for 26 Appearances by our pen)
Or games they came in leading and gave it up (120 Appearances)
The only way to get a win is to come in Tied (same 26) or Behind (119) and in those games the team Jessup is trying to blame is what saved them! Doesn’t show the pitchers actually held anyone or did not give up runs, just that the team covercame those games by scoring enough to win!
So all the wins they have are a product of the team Jessup wants to blame, Most if not all of the losses are due to them giving up a run or runs after the team kept pace or GOT us the lead only to see it go bye bye due to the pen (and we have just seen a few games where that happened!)
If he really wants to show the team is the problem then let him show us how all of thier losses are the product of coming into a tied game!
We know thats not true because of qall the games we know just off the top of our head where they had a lead only to give it up!
Jessup seems to be coming around on his wrongness of the Bullpen and Good Day…
But he is trying to supplant that argument with his old argument that this team isn’t good enough and even if he was right things would be the same.
We all know thats not true!
We all also know that if the pen didn’t suck and played at least .500 baseball we would be leading the division right now!
with 30 decisions if they had just gone 15-15 we would be 4 games up where a win tonite could tie us for the division!
There is one otherway to get a win but it sure doesn’t fit Jessp’s argument….
Come in with a lead, Give it up and have the bats bail you out which I bet accounts for quite a few of those 11 wins!
Hi Metsie,
I’m having the same discussion with some others and they still claim they are happy about the long-term vision of Sandy by rebuilding from within. But what I would like to know where this suddenly becomes a “vision”? Isn’t it when a team starts getting old, unless it the Red Sox, Yankees, Phillies etc. with money to burn, they build up from the minors?
And this is a team that isn’t either old or in need of a total re-building. But it’s leaks are starting to show and the front office isn’t doing anything to patch up the holes. Is every one of our prospects an untouchable?
How can you have a vision to forsee who your going to be taking in next year’s draft when you don’t know where you will pick and who will be picked before you do?
Yet building from within is all about drafting players so it’s not a VISION…You can’t see what your going to get you can only see what you already have.
Hi Jessep,
I am sure we all agree that baseball is a team sport and each player must do his part.
The team has lost six straight. I am not upset about Josh Egan on Friday night but the Mets were only trailing by one run when the bullpen increased that to three The Mets scored one run but had the pen kept the game closer, we know it’s different playing for one run than it is two or three.
Saturday the Mets rallied to take the lead in the eighth only to have the pen blow it.
Tuesday the Mets twice took last inning leads to which the bullpen blew it.
Last night the Mets found got themselves back to a one run deficit in a very tight game only to have the bullpen then give up two more right back, putting them behind by three and enough for Washington to withstand the two runs we scored in the ninth.
That is four out of six games that we could have realisticly won if the bullpen just did it’s part like the batters did in some cases and the starting pitchers did like the past two nights.
Instead of a six game losing streak we could have been at 4-2 and nine games over .500 instead of one. Or if we just went 3 and 3, we would still be seven games over as it was before the streak.
That’s unfortunately the bull about the pen that we all have to contend with.
I find it funny that over the past few winters when some said the bullpen was awful, many said that the offense had many chances to come back and win those games that they were blowing (specifically always falling on DW’s shoulders) NOW, it’s an awful bullpen…….ok got it.
It is an awful bullpen
and
There is some dead weight in that lineup.
And who cost you that first game vs the Nats the Lineup or the Bullpen?
Care to answer?
Bullpen – clearly.
Did I say one was better or worse then the other?
No Kay but some are trying to exscuse the Bullpen and pin thier awful performance on the lineup not producing runs.
Truth is the lineup fails about as often as it always had but the problem is even when they don’t fail the Bullpen manages to blow those games anyway.
That wasn’t the case as often in the past. Certainly not in 2010!
And it started in the 2nd Half of 2011, Right after we got rid of the one reliable closer we had.
Hi Metsie,
And notice last year’s closer has allowed just nine earned runs over his last 31 innings (an ERA of approximately 2.6), has lowered his ERA to from 6.57 on May 1st to 3.71 as of today and LEADS THE LEAGUE with 47 appearances?
How come those who want to say the Francisco we have now has put up similar stats to the Francisco we once had after citing all the above. The talk is about how well Frank has performed since his early season problems, just like KRod. Well, on May 2nd, Frank Francisco was sporting an ERA of 6.97 – 0.50 higher than KRod – and has lowered it to 4.97 – which is now 1.26 higher.
But I agree with some that say that the Mets would be way overpaying for him this year. They are right you know, it’s not worth paying all those millions to a guy who would be sitting mostly on the bullpen bench because his fellow relievers blows games before he would have a chance to come in and pitch the ninth. That is, of course, since we chose to offer Takahashi only a one year deal and decided not to keep Issringhaussen at all.
Well, in November the Mets needed a $40 million bridge loan to meet their operational expenses for the month so it is obvious they desperately needed to save every dollar they could during the season. That is why they dumped KRod. It was not part of any “vision” on the part of Sandy other than to keep the Wilpons afloat as much as he could. That $17 million closing bonus was creeping in fast.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=rodrifr03&t=p&year=2012
Joey this whole argument has nothing to do with current events or the MLB…
It has to do with HISTORY!
Not Met History or Player History….POSTER HISTORY!
They all supported playing MONEYBALL and have since even before K-Rod was sent!
Whenever K-Rod is mentioned they bring up MONEY! Not YOUR money…Not MY money, Not even THIER Money!
They have more concern for WILPON’S MONEY than they do how good this team is built and who it has to win games with!
Thats the bottom line here.
They all supported Sandy because he played Moneyball and now that it has showed how good it is at finding players they are all running around pointing at anything that moves to blame it on!
In the last two days alone we have heard the following:
1 – An entire Article based entirely on manipulation via use of appearance qualifier (Qualifier is another way of saying only HALF the truth) on how this Bullpen is not as bad as it seems. No one bought it everyone saw right through it and then Parnell sealed the deal by blowing another save that night followed by beato.
2 – Now today we are hearing it’s the lineup that makes our Bullpen so bad not the bullpen itself. They would be better if the Lineup is which we all know is bull because in order for a PEn to get a loss they have to be at minimum tied when they come in or have a lead they gave up, both of which says the Lineup was doing it’s job at the time!
Tomorrow it will be some other excuse….
And Why?
Because they saw a GM who decided to play Moneyball, They like Moneyball and they went out of thier way to support every moneyball move we have made.
And now they need to find some way of getting out of it!
Because those who knew it was wrong were all called crazy idiots…
Well thier chickens have come to roost!
You get what you pay for!
Pay dirt what you get is DIRT!
NO, you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I read the posts and they are clearly articulated that you can’t be shut down most of the game and expect better results, you can’t keep carrying “hitters” that are hitting on or close to the Mendoza line and think you are going to keep winning.
It was also written that the bullpen is a problem, but you are twisting it, just because.
Hi Kay,
I have to question that statement about “you can’t keep carrying “hitters” that are hitting on or close to the Mendoza line and think you are going to keep winning.” The Mets are currently seventh in the league in scoring, which places them right in the middle. Not great, not poor, but average. Though we would have more runs to work with if those players hit above their weight, what we have scored nevertheless has been adequate enough. That is why our starters have usually been able to leave games with a lead.
And that is the point.
No matter how many runs or lack of runs the hitters account for in a game, when a team goes into the eighth or ninth inning with a lead, the pen’s job is to then retain it. Not many teams have the fire power of the Yankees who simply score tons of runs in what becomes a boring display of t-ball prowess. Most games are close contests.
We saw in Atlanta where the bats scored more than enough runs but R.A. Dickey didn’t have it. Yet in inning eight the bullpen was still handed a two run lead. Would it have mattered if the score was 2-0 instead of 7-5? And twice on Tuesday night the Met bats were silent into the ninth when ‘Spin hit lightning in a bottle and we suddenly were ahead 4-3. After the bullpen blew it, we came back to again go ahead 5-4. Would it have mattered if it was 14-13 or 15-14 instead?
That is why I raise the point about KRod and Takahashi. With the way they have been performing since slow starts in April, a run or two in the last two innings would have been sufficient to win most of games in which they appeared. That is because each of them has been sporting ERAs below 3.00 since April (or one run for every third inning pitched) which is indicative of one or two runs to work with is sufficient enough to close down the game.
We had both pitchers – not to mention Issringhausen who is pitching wonderful with the Angels in relief as well. With them still on the team, Francisco could go back to pitching earlier in the game, a position he has shown to be more comfortable with. Byrdak would still be a specialist but not need to be used as often as he is. There would be less pressure on everyone.
Now, regarding finances.
In the case of Takahashi, he was willing to stay with the Mets for a two-year deal in which Sandy offered only one. So instead of signing Takahashi in the area of $8 million over two years, he signs a Carasco for two years at $2.4 million, a Tim Byrdak for two years at $1.9 million, a one year deal for a Blaine Boyer for $725K. He selects a rule five draft choice in Beato for approximately $450K. In essence, Sandy did exactly what he said he believed in – spending less on one player so he could get four for the same cost. Takahashi would have earned roughly $4 million in 2011. The combined single season salaries of those four combined amounts to roughly $3.3 million.
That is money ball. If it isn’t, that is simply incompetency in evaluating talent. Either way, it was bad for the team.
KRod, of course, had that $17 million bonus plus another year left in his contract as well. In a billion dollar industry, that type of investment is really of little concern as long as the results are still there. That is different than the contract signed by Jason Bay. The money turned into a bad investment for whatever the reason (let it be Citi Field or Jason or a combination of both), he didn’t produce the results that were expected of him.
Of course, that $17 million bonus and final year would be of concern for a team that is losing money and the owners find themselves in tremendous debt. But this is the New York area, not Pittsburgh, not Oakland, not Kansas City, not even Cleveland. The small market area that hinders those franchises is not a problem here. The hinderence with the Mets is with ownership that lost a lot of capital through the real-estate bust, the Madoff scandal and building a smaller ballpark and demanding high ticket, processing, parking and concession prices from fans as ludicrious as that $17 million closing bonus was to KRod.
So maybe Sandy had no choice but to play money ball with the bullpen. Money ball hasn’t won anybody anything – for as has been detailed, the Oakland A’s under Billy Bean had so much great pitching that was not yet eligible for free agency – along with most of the returning regulars – that in 2002 the loss of Giambi and Damon was of little consequence.
And why? For the same reason that it now pertains to the Mets bullpen. With that great pitching staff, Oakland could afford to lose that run production generated by those two players they lost. To paraphrase, instead of winning by margins of five or six runs, they would win by margins of two or three.
So, in response to “you can’t keep carrying “hitters” that are hitting on or close to the Mendoza line and think you are going to keep winning”, Kay, I honestly think that is not looking at the overall and more complex picture. If the Mets had a bullpen anything close to average, their batters have been producing adequate enough runs for them to hold leads and not to let close games in which they are trailing get out of hand in the late innings.
Everything is very open with a very clear explanation
of the challenges. It was definitely informative.
Your website is extremely helpful. Thank you for sharing!