24
2012
Can’t Fix A Mess Overnight
An article by 
Let’s talk realistically here for a second. Let’s stop the whole “buyer” or “seller” talk. To me, you’re only a “buyer”, if you’re a shoe-in for the playoffs or are a team with legitimate expectations of making a run. You’re only a “seller”, if things are just so bad, you need to get some prospects or dump some money.
With regard to the Mets you’re talking about a team that every single person here respectfully thought they were playing over their heads a bit. The Mets were being carried by David Wright offensively, and RA Dickey on the mound.
With exception of probably Johan through May and Tejada or Murphy, there is absolutely nobody on this team you could count on. That doesn’t mean players didn’t have good performances here or there, but you cannot be a serious playoff team if you are being carried by 5 players at most.
Anybody who wanted or wants to trade any significant prospects for a player with an expiring a contract is lost, I’m sorry. This isn’t 2006, let’s not fix the problems of the past by making the same mistakes of the past.
I do hope the Mets are active during the trading deadline, but I’m not in desperate need for it.
What I am desperate for is an understanding of what to expect, and when to expect it. This past November, I said “After this season, I’d like for Sandy Alderson along with the Wilpon’s to stand at a podium and tell us all what the plan is. I am a patient guy, but I need to know what I’m waiting for and for how long. How bad are things really? I don’t BLAME Alderson like others do.”
I will stick to that. I am not ready to blame Alderson for the problems this franchise is facing. I am however, about 12 months from expecting more than I have most recently.
I believe the problems of this roster exceed 1 or 2 bullpen arms. I stand by my point, that this team has more problems than Jon Rauch. I am not suggesting the bullpen is good, or isn’t an issue. I’m merely suggesting their other problems to me, outweigh the need for 1 or 2 more bullpen arms.
Getting bullpen help is fine, so long as you pay a fair price for it. However, I’m suggesting that shouldn’t be the end of their dealings if they make any moves. A bullpen arm will help the immediate, and maybe keep the fan base from jumping off the Whitestone, but it won’t fix any other problems.
The Outfield – At some point, this outfield needs to have a blueprint rather than just unpredictable chaos. This team has Jason Bay, Lucas Duda, Scott Hairston, Kirk Nieuwenhuis, Andres Torres, Mike Baxter, Jordany Valdespin, and maybe one day Matt Den Dekker.
The Centerfield position needs to be figured out soon. You cannot have a contender and have 3 different players in CF (assuming Valdespin is a future CF).
At this point, with the direction this season is headed, if the Mets feel Valdespin can one day be a CF then put him out there and let he and Kirk fight for the job. The odd man out needs to go though. There’s no sense in keeping them both, because neither of them likely bring the bat needed in a corner OF spot.
I’ve said I love the idea of Josh Willingham in LF, but to do that, you need to cut your losses with Jason Bay first. You cannot tie up that much $ in 1 spot.
For me personally, I do not think Nieuwenhuis is an everyday CF. So if Valdespin cannot hack it there, then they need to be creative with finding somebody who can.
That creativity could lead to unloading Murphy, in hopes Valdespin can slide into 2B. I love Daniel Murphy, because nobody gets more out of less than him, but his value to the future of this franchise is on the trade market.
To me, the only active roster players untouchable right now would be Wright, Tejada and Harvey when he gets here. The Mets have too many players with holes in their game. I do not see them trading Dickey, but if he were to give you more than 1 useful piece for the immediate future, you need to consider it.
Again, I’m not suggesting they tear it down and trade everybody. I’m suggesting they get creative and find a way maybe with 1 or 2 deals to get the most value for a player in hopes of helping 2013 and 2014.
You cannot deny the fact that realistically the Mets should look for upgrades in LF, CF, C, SP, RP, and maybe even RF with 1B being up in the air. 1 or 2 bullpen arms won’t change that.
There’s a difference to me between being a seller and just unloading players. I do not want to see that. I want to see the Mets evaluate what they really have for the next 2 years, and find ways to improve on 2013 and 2014, while not ignoring the need for competitive 2012 baseball.
If you’re looking ahead at the free agent market, there won’t be a ton out there to help. There isn’t much allure to coming here, except money. So maybe you look at guys like A.J. Pierzynski, Melky Cabrera, or Michael Bourn, but are they worth the price tag they may demand?
When you look at the 2012 Mets and think about the future, you know you can cross off 3B and SS, and then everything else is in doubt. That’s why you don’t buy rentals at this stage because you do not have the luxury of giving youth away right now. It has nothing to do with moneyball, sabermetrics, or Sandy Alderson.
It has everything to do with evaluating your talent, and realizing the New York Mets cannot be fixed overnight.
About the Author: Michael J. Branda
My time with MMO began in July of 2009 when I wrote a Fan Post defending Omar Minaya (before it was cool to do that.) I grew up a Mets fan with the mid 1980's teams. My favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, I like to think I meet in the middle. I believe thinking of new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the same way has not produced results. However, I think over-thinking certain situations can get you into trouble. I'm excited for the new regime, because I believe they have pieces in place to focus on several aspects of the Mets organization. I've waited this long for a World Series, waiting a few more years for another chance isn't going to kill me.
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If you’re a shoe in for the playoffs, you don’t need to be a buyer.
If almost every player on this team is so bad that they can’t be counted on a good GM, would be selling these pieces of garbage off getting anything back for the trash team you declare the Mets to be.
Why would anyone, even the mpst ardent kool aide drinker like you, after almost two years of continual lies, want to listen to Mr LIE stand on the podium and tell you his plan. Is the potion that powerful?
As for evaluating talent, evaluating the “talent” that Mr LIE has begifted to the Met fans, that would be the only reason to neither be a buyer or a seller. He has proven he is 100% incompetant. Maybe decades ago he could do it, but his time is gone. And your evaluation premise is not valid anyway since you started off by trashing almost the entire team.
thanks for the comment Amazin! Your objectivity came shining through.
always nice when people look at the big picture.
Anyway, as to your point, they should really be buyers and sellers if possible. Sell what you don’t need/can live without/have an excess of. And buy what you are missing, with an eye toward players that can be around for a while as part of the future. And the parts to sell could be ML guys or MiL guys you won’t be able to keep (40 man issues) or have replacements for, or are blocked positionally.
so in theory, that could mean trading guys like hairston, Byrdak, Flores, murphy, Spin, duda (not all, but this type) and maybe some A ball pitching, to get back a combination of prospects and a future building block like Upton (or another established but not rental guy).
the other quick fix option of course is to pick up some salary dump types to fill a gaping hole like the pen. that won’t impact the future.
‘…they should really be buyers and sellers if possible’
I believe the term coined now is ‘building’. Since we’re far from one hole away from contention this year, all moves should be with an eye towards the future.
I believe this is more or less what Jessup is saying here – a concept I agree with.
As to throwing us a bone, I agree but wouldn’t now where to start. Have to think this starting rotation is going to be ugly to watch this second half, especially if Johan is out for the long term. I hold my breath every time Young pitches. Dickey is solid and Niese still making strides. That leaves one prospect in Harvey and one scrub in Hefner. Oh boy…….
*wouldn’t know
Like most Met fans, I’m getting tired of the wait until next year mantra this ownership has been shoving down our throats. Fact is, Sandy’s bullpen has been a horror. Fact is, teh Mets are not getting solid production from positions you expect production from: First base, and all three outfield slots. These are areas Sandy needs to address, no sit there and expect us to wait, and wait, then wait even more.
I agree with you Jessup, a rent a player for the next few months would be a horrible move and the Mets should stay away from that. But jeez, come on here, give us something, toss us a bone here.
OF they need to get some replacements for sure for next year.
but 1B, what can they really do? You want to punt on Ike already? If he is part of the future, you live with it in a building year. Maybe if they were 1 game up in the WC you would throw him aside for a year?
I was going to write a counter piece but that would just be too Jessup Like and so I will post my long peice as a comment!
Can’t Fix a Mess Overnight, But you sure can create one!
I am so sick and tired of the excuses and the rationalization being done to keep Sandy Alderson nice and shiny clean and free from criticism. I start to wonder if some here are Met fans or merely Alderson fans wearing Mr Met heads hoping no one sees what really lay underneath the mask.
These folks would now have us believe that the team that played above .500 for half a season isn’t good enough to be built up/added to and should be traded and sold off for things that might help next year. The lie here is that this team was never really good enough and merely fooling us.
Well there is an attempt to fool us but it sure isn’t being perpetrated by the regular players we know as the NY Mets.
We are supposed to believe that team was merely playing over themselves instead of what everyone knows is the truth that the Bullpen has played below the ENTIRE LEAGUE!
It leads the league in losses, Leads the league in the race for a 10+ ERA and hovers around in 2nd place in all the other categories of suckitude you can judge relievers on!
And now those who thought that the GM who brought us that Bullpen and had a good day doing it, now wants to let that same man trade away the guys who for half a season had overcome the pen’s game/lead blowing ways, won ballgames for us, showed what playing with heart and persistence can do and made the season worth watching. And you have to wonder is that to make the team better or to ensure that the Bullpen isn’t the only thing that sucks thereby creating more targets to blame INSTEAD of the High and Mighty GM!
These folks Say (and have said for a year now) Sandy had a plan, Now they want to know what it is?
Well here it is and it looks an awful lot like yesterday’s game.
THE PLAN: Wait for something good to happen!
Thats it! Nothing more! The plan doesn’t go much past tonite. 2013 is just some time in the future where they hope some other excuse will be adequate!
You all thought the plan was to get Payroll in order and to build from within. Well if you build from within do you let nearly half your draft picks walk because you don’t want to pay them?
Sure we have brought up guys like Tejada, Valdespin and Kirk but thats because this GM created holes we did not have and what he decided to fill those self inflicted wounds with were players who were either worse than what we had or got hurt and forced him to bring up those kids. And truth is if left to thier preference they wouldn’t have brought them up at all! Neither Kirk nor Valdespin had made the Opening day Roster if Torres wasn’t hurt. Baxter would not have been able to do his best impression of Jason Bay vs the Wall if Jason Bay did not get hurt first.
What led to them having to be promoted? Look no further than that Good Day back in January where we traded away a pretty decent CF to get the Three Amigos of the Apocalypse. Oh yeah and Torres who is hitting .221 for the year.
This GM has no plan. It has an opinion that changes from hour to hour but no plan whatsoever. What they decide today is reversed tomorrow.
One day Harvey isn’t ready and one even worse start then all of a sudden he is.
One day we are Buyers and then the next we are not!
One day we are building from within and draft picks are very important to the long term health and the next day half your picks are not worth signing especially 2nd rounders who want 80K more because it would mean getting paid slot rate!
So far the only moves this GM has made of any significance has occurred over three days in two years.
The day we traded K-Rod, The day we traded Beltran, and the Good Day we traded Pagan.
What did we get for that? Wheeler and….Yeah thats about it!
But he has a steady hand, He has a plan, He has the future in his sights (just as long as the future doesn’t go past noon the next day).
Yep he is one of the best GMs in the game isn’t he?
NO! he is nothing more than a bean counter who really could care less about the baseball on the field provided the ink in the ledger doesn’t go to red.
He manages like the future will take care of itself and if given 25 years he might actually be right as the law of averages itself will make a winner once every 25 years all on it’s own.
But if his past history if any indication of how good he is at finding “PLAYERS” perhaps Sandy is a smart guy because he knows the Clintian rule…
A Mans got to know his limitations!
And in his case not making moves seems to be the smart play merely because when this guy does make a move it has always been a move for the worst!
Stop making excuses for this guy!
You can believe if you want that Omar made mistakes but he didn’t make them in his first two years of being GM and maybe made them in his last two years. But guess what no matter what you think of Omar Sandy is far worse than anything Omar ever did!
And no amount of fingerpointing, stat manipulation, excuse making or subterfuge is going to hide that fact!
He won’t be fired this offseason, but if he doesn’t make the playoffs by 2013 guess what.
You won’t need to make excuses for him anymore and you won’t need your Mr Met mask either. You will either have to switch teams to root for Sandy or get back with the program and be a Met fan again instead of this moneyballin Sandy Psychopant we have been subjected to for Two years now!
The time to make this team better is NOW! Not 4 Months from now, Not in 2013 or 2014, NOW!
Cause if your incapable of making this team better NOW then your not capable of making it better at ANY time you can pick!
This team should not be torn down and blown up as many would like to see. We did that for a year and two offseasons and it is what got us to this point!
So the wheels have come off the Pro-Sandy Train!
If we really want to make this team better we should trade Sandy for Cash considerations cause he sure doesn’t seem to have an answer that lasts more than a day at best!
Stop making excuses, Stop trying to find a rationale and justification for his Mistakes!
We are tired of hearing about how much of Wilpon’s money we spend and how something later (a later that never comes) will show us just how great Sandy is!
We are MET FANS! And we are sick of what Alec calls SLURPINESS in regards to this Moneyballing No Talent judging fool who sits on his hands and changes his mind more often than Lindsey Lohan gets into a car accident!
No one is buying your crap! No One wants to let this guy sell off the few good guys we have to bring in more of his cheap under-performing K-Mart crap!
Either he makes a move that brings a good player and improves this team this year or he should go back to testing latin Americans for Steroid use! Something he DOES seem to have some experience and success with.
C’mon Metsie, you can do better than often stated cliches and name calling. I personally expect more from you.
I didn’t call a single poster a name here Des but you know that it’s just the only way you guys who like Sandy seem to run to whenever the truth about him and his fans get called out!
Considering how often you have done the same when unprovolked I’ll just take your accusation as an indication that what I said actually hurts and is something you wish someone would not have said because you have no defense for it!
Too bad…the TRUTH hurts!
Metsie — When you accuse people with, “No one is buying your crap!”, you’re really name calling. Name calling is abusive or insulting language referred to a person or group. You haven’t done just that? Please, Metsie, don’t try to lawyer up your insults. The name reference was strongly implied. It couldn’t be anyone else but the writer of the article.
I know you’ve got your heart in the right place but . . . .
Pure and utter bullshit Des….
WHo did I accuse? Name them please….
No Names to name? Then your point has no point.
SO you go ahead and name who I called a name.
Please stop trying to play the play nice game when we know you have called more names and starting more insulting threads than I ever have!
You have no credibility on the name calling front as far as I’m concerned.
JESSEP
And what name did I call him Des?
Oh see I called him a No One Buying Your Crap!
Yeah shame on using such names….
Thats not a name it’s an indictment!
Metsie — I see from your replies that you don’t really know what name calling is. There’s no need for you to be a bombastic blowhard. Use this link to understand what name calling is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_calling
By the way, it’s sometimes related to bullying. LOL
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Now go down the list of your past 50 replies to Bayonne and tell me how your posts fare against your link?
When you come up with your defense of your own Emily Postings then you have my reply that should shut you up because you have trashed more folks on this site than I have and constantly blame it on the childish “He Started It” bullshit!
So guess what I’ll use your own line here HE started it!
Now shut up and stop pretending that your actually interested in keeping the insults off the site when you are the one who breaks that rule more often than I do!
You just being hypocritical and it seems your only concerned when it’s your friends who get called names….
But when you do it it’s to defend your honor!
Well Hypocrites have no honor!
And you my friend are a Hypocrite!
Get over yourself and stop acting like your above the fray because you aren’t!
You insult posters as often as anyone else does and if you thought what I said was insulting just wait to see what I’m capable if you continue this childish attempt at accusing me of what you do constantly!
“Can’t Fix a Mess Overnight, But you sure can create one!”
So you honestly think this was mess was created overnight, and falls solely on Alderson’s shoulders? You think everything was all wonderful for the past 10 years or so? Geez
Excuse me but in the past 10 years we had three meanigful septembers to watch so if you didn’t like the other 7 guess what…Sandy brought those years back!
And yes it all happened in one night!
The day he traded away Pagan for that Bullpen that has stunk up the joint all year long!
For a guy that claims to be so smart, your memory is quite selective and it’s failing you. Angel Pagan was AWFUL last year, terrible defense, awful baserunning, and more slumps then George Steinbrenner had managers. Nice second guessing.
I guess you forgot how bad the bullpen was going into that Sept 07, and the drastic improvement in 08, oh yeah, that didn’t happen.
yeah what was Torres like last year?
Bullpen in 2007? You mean the guys who were 14th ranked with a 4.03 ERA and lost 21 games the entire year as opposed to the 5.16 ERA we have today ranked last on the planet and lost the same amount of games only halfway through the season?
Who is the one with the faulty memory here again?
OMG – seriously what is wrong with you, how many times have I said THIS BULLPEN IS AWFUL? Do you just make things up because you like to see your name? Argue because your life is just that shallow?
2007 and 08 were HORRIBLE TOO, ALSO, AS WELL Go ahead and defend all you want.
Not as horrible as things are today apparently now were they?
Oh but I did miss the number for the 2008 lot. Let me get them for you to refresh your memory….
2008 4.27 ERA 28-28 for the season. When this current lot goes 27-7 the rest of this season come talk to me about how bad the 2008 guys were.
They were not AS terrible as the pen is now and they didn’t cost us to give up on a season in July either!
So you want to rank different degrees of suckage now? Seriously enough already
The bottom line those seasons were failures no matter how you spin it.
If those seasons were failures then what do you call this one?
Why do you continue to ask inane questions? Did I say this years wonderful, success etc?
How many different wants can I say it, or are you baiting me? Now I’m sure that would never happen right?
While you are patting your back with your numbers saying this year is worse, I’ll ask you, so you prefer your bull pen to melt down and cost a playoff spot two years running? You’re ok with that, as long as this year sucks more.
So you continue to root more for the previous GM then you do the team itself. Go follow the Friars, it seems to be working out very well.
No Kay I expect my GM to do something to make this team better and I do NOT expect fans to defend his lack of action, his mistakes, and philosophy that got us into the position in the first place!
I root for the METS, Not the Wilpons, Not the GM….
Just as I say Jason Bay has not performed and should be sat on the bench I call out the GM for aquiring crap and failing to do his job which is toi properly evaluate and acquire GOOD PLAYERS!
But some around here seem to think saving the Wilpons money is more important than winning baseball.
Those same people make excuses for the GM hoping to deflect the blame and counter the fact that he has failed?
For what purpose do you do that I ask?
Are you a Wilpon Fan?
And Alderson Fan?
Or a MET FAN who is tired of the substandard way the team is being run and wants it to stop just as it wants Jason Bay to stop getting into games with a crappy BA and high GDP rate!
Metsie:
You should have written a counter piece, it would have been easier to follow after it was edited… I’ll only respond to the points you make that are meant for discussion and not an attempt to insult people.
“These folks would now have us believe that the team that played above .500 for half a season isn’t good enough to be built up/added to and should be traded and sold off for things that might help next year. The lie here is that this team was never really good enough and merely fooling us.”
See here is where we differ. Miracles happen, but you don’t plan for them to happen. It was a nice exciting ride, and who knows the Mets could rip off a nice little streak but the fact or truth is, they are not a playoff roster. They were a scrappy team that was carried on the shoulders of an MVP bat, occasional late game hitting, and 2 SP’s 1 in particular who was pitching lights out.
The 2011 Pirates or 2011 Indians were above .500 in the 1st half, but over 162 games your weaknesses shine through and the Mets have more weaknesses than strengths.
“We are supposed to believe that team was merely playing over themselves instead of what everyone knows is the truth that the Bullpen has played below the ENTIRE LEAGUE!”
You harp on the bullpen merely because it’s the easiest place to hate the GM as you do. You ignore the fact 1B is hitting .208, the OF has little to no production outside of Scott Hairston, the catcher provides little to no consistent help, Santana needed to continue an April-May stretch that was unfair to expect.
You cannot change the results of past games. As much as you’d like to complain about them, you can’t do it. The bullpen isn’t the only problem moving forward.
I’m glad we’re pretending that Pagan was some amazing talent that shouldn’t have been traded. Pagan was a lazy fielder and a below average hitter. The goal was that Ramirez would be better than he’s been this year. That happens.
You’re gonna act like getting a 30 year old reliever who for the last 4 years had a combined stat line of 276 Games, 279 IP, 224 Hits, 116BB, 234K, 1.21 WHIP 2.77 ERA was a bad idea? You have the luxury of seeing him during a rough year… but the history was there to make that move.
The Mets had Kirk available in CF if Torres didn’t work out, they had a luxury of having too many OF’s so they dealt a below average OF, got another below average OF back but got a relief pitcher who had a recent history of health and success.
Stop acting like the signs were there that Ramirez would be a 4.50 ERA guy. The need was bullpen help, so he traded a low value player and tried to get a player with a solid resume.
If the Mets would have signed Heath Bell to a 1 yr deal, would you have come back and acted like it was a bad idea because of how his 2012 season has gone?
“One day Harvey isn’t ready and one even worse start then all of a sudden he is.”
and 1 day you lose another SP and are forced to make a move. You’re acting like Santana didn’t go to the DL and Batista didn’t get DFA after he suggested Harvey needs more work.
“One day we are Buyers and then the next we are not!”
This is why you don’t rush to judgments. Would being a buyer and getting a bullpen arm have made the starting staff suddenly not get shelled?
“You can believe if you want that Omar made mistakes but he didn’t make them in his first two years of being GM and maybe made them in his last two years.”
Great statement to prove the issue here. First, do not even try to compare 2005 to 2010. When Omar got his gig, the Mets and their owners were ready to make a financial splash in an attempt to rejuvenate a fan base and make a play on NY. Things were different then and you know it. If you’re saying Omar made mistakes only in his last 2 years then isn’t Alderson trying to fix those issues as well?
“But guess what no matter what you think of Omar Sandy is far worse than anything Omar ever did!”
Show me Sandy Alderson’s “Oliver Perez, Luis Castillo, and Jason Bay” please?
“The time to make this team better is NOW! Not 4 Months from now, Not in 2013 or 2014, NOW!”
You’re agreeing with me though you think you’re not. I said I want them to be creative and make moves that help the future but also help 2012. Not rentals. I’m not sure why you think you’re preaching to me.
The Mets need to upgrade CF, LF, RF, C, RP, SP. Stop acting like Huston Street or whoever is gonna come here and magically the other problems vanish. Street could EASILY come here and be a bust. Then what? You gonna say “wow my mistake.”? I doubt it.
“No one is buying your crap! No One wants to let this guy sell off the few good guys we have to bring in more of his cheap under-performing K-Mart crap!”
You just say we have a few good guys. Just a few, but above you’re acting like this is a championship team if they improve the pen with an arm or 2. Which is it? And which player did I say to trade that is so outlandish? Murphy? I don’t WANT Murphy to go but if a guy like Valdespin’s best shot is 2B, then you can get something useful for Murphy. That’s not tearing things down.
“Miracles happen, but you don’t plan for them to happen. ”
And you don’t WAIT for then to happen wither as we seem to be doing.
Why aren’t they a playoff roster? Because of thast Bullpen you got that followed your SAVE MONEY methodology over Baseball Performance gain!
After 82 games your weaknesses shine through too…And ours is that Bullpen you brought here!
I harp on the Bullpen because thats the only MLB moves this GM has made!
the rest were all Throwins and MiL signings who have done fine when they were pressed into playing but have rarely been the engine that drive the team. That all was here long before this GM made a single move!
No you can not change the results of past games but you can change the players who caused those results.
it wasn’t Murphy who cost us being under .500 yet you want to trade him.
You will take Lucas Duda to task for hitting .241 but nary a peep about Torres hitting .221!
You have doubts about Ike Davis yet he is tied for the team lead in HRs.
But the Bullpen is just fine as far as your concerned…Even better than we think?
Please! jessup I don’t want to keep beating on you I know you WANT to be a met fan but your blind devotion to moneyballing Sandy is getting in the way!
There does seem to be one little point you attempt to sidestep…
K-Rod! We wouldn’t have needed all that Bullpen help if we hadn’t placed more concern for Wilpon’s money than we did on baseball. And the truth is thats really what has killed this team!
We lost a lot of SPs but pray tell who didn’t go get what I suggested should be the focus and go after starting pitching?
Who wanted instead to WAIT for Harvey and Wheeler to come save the day?
You knew full well that Santana was a risk to mis time this season after coming off surgery and knew the only credible replacement was a MAYBE called Young who would not have solved a thing if Santana had failed early!
Where was out starting Pitching depth?
Batista and Hefner?
Thats the move of a GM that should be given long term props?
Was the Bullpen a long term solution to our problems?
After all you keep saying this is a long term plan please name for us the long term moves and decisions we have made to get that 2013 and 2014 something you want to wait and sell off for?
“Would being a buyer and getting a bullpen arm have made the starting staff suddenly not get shelled”
Excuse me but Young gave up 2 whole runs yesterday…If 2 runs is shelled what do you call the 5 runs given up by your pen the last two days in a row?
Santana got shelled…Thats what happens when you put all your rotation eggs into a Just come off Surgery and hasn’t pitched a full season in two years guy!
Did we have an alternative to fill in for him?
NO! Whose fault is that? Mine? Wilpons? GOD?!!??!??!??!
The only thing that is different between 2005 and now is then the GM was looking for ways to make this team better not just now but for the forseeable future. He did that by signing long term contracts to get players worth having for more than a year.
Now we get guys who might be great but have issues so are cheap and when they prove they are actually worth having we let them go because they are not cheap anymore!
Again I ask who are you a fan of? The Wilpons? Sandy? or the mets?
If you want to be a met fan then you won’t care about Wilpon’s money nor how Sandy looks to his fanbase you would only care that the GM is making this team BETTER not finding a rationale to get rid of whatever good we do have for some Phantom Future that never comes!
Tell you what…You give me anything you have of worth now and I will promise you something good in the future…
You In?
Cause thats basically what your asking us to do!
If K-Rod were still a Met his $17 million dollar option would have been the price for a 1.60ish WHIP and a 4.50ish ERA. Not worth the price. Sorry Metsie, he’s not the answer you seem to think he is.
.4.50 Era is better than 5+ now isn’t it?
At ANY cost!
And yes, it is the Wilpon’s money. However, if the owners tell the GM to slash payroll it limits his options. In two years he has cut roughly $50 million in payroll. No one wants to do that. And considering the Wilpon’s financial troubles I would think even you Metsie would be smart enough to understand that there was a mandate to cut costs from the owners. Let’s also consider that an outside firm was brought in to consolidate expenses throughout the organization, staff layoffs, the elimination of a minor league affiliate. These all point to an organization that is cutting costs coming from the top, the owners. Use some logic and stop acting like there is an infinite funnel of money available. It’s blatantly obvious money is an issue with this franchise.
Prove he told him to slash Payroll….
Got anything to prove that or just another PERHAPS this is why Sandy Sucks so much statement?
Yes Sandy said to Fred “I won’t take the job Fred unless I’m allowed to slash at least 50 million from payroll”.
Hey Sandy is the one that thinks you can only have two big contracts on your payroll…That certainly isn’t something Wilpon has done or insisted upon in the past now is it?
So yes I bet Sandy said Hey Fred, No Sacred Cows here, I get to get rid of whoever I want, when I decide they are worth more to me gone than they are worth being here.
I get to do things My way at my own pace using my own philosophy.
And if not I’m not your guy go Hire someone else.
I could see Sandy saying that easily!
He said pretty much the same thing to Reyes, Hey Your good but your not that good as far as I’m concerned, go get your best offer and if nothing happens you play for what I want to pay and you’ll like it!
So what you’re saying is that the Wilpons are flush with cash and Sandy refuses to spend it. Got it. This is why I can’t take you seriously. You don’t use logic.
And the fact that Sandy got the call right as far as the value of K-Rod and Reyes eats you up. Give him props when he deserves it. Those were the right calls.
I even remember a minor league report on this site saying the guy he got for K-Rod was doing relatively well in A-ball or whatever. Obviously there’s quite a lot to get through to be a productive major leaguer, but hey better that he shows something somewhere then absolutely nothing.
Yep the Wilpons are flush with Cash!
They paid off all their team debt, sold off shares of the team to make some more money.
And have a cheap assed GM running the show!
One who doesn’t need the owner to tell him to save money becausehe hates spending it even when he has it!
He was a Buyer a week ago…
Did Wilpon change his mind is that what you think?
Fred called him up and said hey you can’t be a buyer?
The fact that you can’t look at evidence and draw a conclusion, or at least allow for the possibility of something is phenomenal. Very literal take that you need to be told something outright to believe it. Must make you very gullible.
What evidence do you have Sane?
Please show us!
Have none?
Then I guess that excuse you and Fonzie keeps making has no basis in fact!
Mine does!
Sandy was quoted many times saying NO TEAM (not just the wilpons) can support more than two big contracts!
If you think Wilpon forced him to say that then provide the proof!
Like I said, your inability to infer things by looking at a circumstance is shocking. I’m not getting into a long winded argument where you feel superior through nothing but your use of inappropriate language and over the top statements due to the fact that you have a dislike of someone, in this case Sandy Alderson and anyone who says anything that supports him.
Simply put, I see the actions of the franchise and understand that the Mets organization is cutting costs, to assume that wouldn’t include the on field product would be foolish. Do I like it? No. Do I understand it? Yes. I think Sandy is doing the best he can while cutting $50 million from the payroll and with a limited amount of flexibility due to existing contractual obligations.
He hasn’t even been on the job two full years. And with the obvious, whether you’d like to admit it or not, financial constraints this would be a tough job for anyone. Even Omar Minaya.
So again, I’m sorry if you demand some kind of proof. Like I said, I DEDUCED from other circumstances surrounding the organization that are well known and publicized. I can’t be blamed if you can’t fit a square peg in a square hole.
And let me be clear, I don’t love everything Alderson does. Obviously, I wish he made Reyes an offer, even if it was one that would have been turned down. I loved having Carlos Beltran in New York and feel that he hadn’t gotten the appreciation he was due until after leaving, I think not bringing back Izzy and Takahashi weren’t the best baseball decisions and would have gone a long way towards improving the current bullpen we have now.
However, I can understand the moves he made. I can see that some failed in ways that frankly whether I liked them or not I couldn’t have predicted them doing his badly. However, to say that anyone would be better than him is a lie. Because I know you wouldn’t be as good at it, just like I know I wouldn’t be as good at it. We can armchair all day, and that’s great.
All I’m trying to say is use some sense, and look at things objectively. Don’t just hate blindly because of some personal vendetta you feel the need to champion.
Most importantly, Let’s Go Mets. And that includes Sandy Alderson so long as he remains the general manager of my favorite team. And since you’re here I would assume you as well Metsie.
And just to add, let’s not forget the loan from MLB or the bridge loan from Bank of America which were taken to help cover every day expenses of the team as they were not able to meet their obligations. That doesn’t sound like a scenario where there is money to be spent lying around.
You needsome EVIDENCE to INFER something…
Your not INFERRING your IMPLYING!
in·fer (n-fûr)
v. in·ferred, in·fer·ring, in·fers
v.tr.
1. To conclude from evidence or premises.
2. To reason from circumstance; surmise: We can infer that his motive in publishing the diary was less than honorable.
3. To lead to as a consequence or conclusion: “Socrates argued that a statue inferred the existence of a sculptor” (Academy).
im·ply (m-pl)
tr.v. im·plied, im·ply·ing, im·plies
1. To involve by logical necessity; entail: Life implies growth and death.
2. To express or indicate indirectly: His tone implied disapproval. See Synonyms at suggest. See Usage Note at infer.
You have a need to excuse Sandy so you Imply the Wilpons forced him to do what he has done when he of his own free will has stated he believes having more than one big payroll on your roster is bad baseball.
If Wilpon was to blame he would have said outright the Owner wanted us to cut salary so we did!
You have no proof and I have Sandy’s own stated beliefs!
I am INFERRING you are merely IMPLYING!
I have stated the evidence, perchance you are illiterate and cannot read my posts correctly?
Let me spell it out for you though Metsie, it’s a slow day at work and frankly I am amused at your inability to comprehend things. But after spelling it out for you like a child I will really be done with this time unless you say something of worth. Which I’m not quite expecting.
EVIDENCE of Mets financial woes: Madoff fiasco, hiring of an outside firm to cut expenditures, loan from MLB, bridge loan from Bank of America to meet expenses, selling on $20 million stakes in team to raise capital, eliminating of an entire minor league affiliate, trading away high priced veterans for small returns before Alderson was with the team (Billy Wagner ring a bell?)
I INFER from these acts that are all well documented that the Wilpons are cutting cost.
There’s a saying that I was taught by someone older than me, as your so apt to inform us of your age and how you’re wisdom through years will teach us so well. “Where there’s smoke, there’s fire.”
And with that, unless you can be civil or say something of value, I am done.
Ok Sane time to show what you got…
How much did they lose on Madoff? Any idea?
Loans from MLB and BoA, All paid up! No Excuse there!
Selling 20 Mil stakes MAKES you money it doesn’t mean you have less it means you have MORE!
getting rid of Veterans doesn’t make you LESS rich it makes you MORE rich!
So basically all your EVIDENCE points to the Wilpons flush with cash and no reason to say what you say they said and can’t prove they said!
It’s just excuses you want to use to defend Sandy’s doing NOTHING!
Okay, so they lose $70 million dollars in 2011, those moves are made to recoup losses and pay off the stated loans. Do you sell off your assets for fun or because you are in desperate need of money? I’d hate to be your accountant, if you’re in the hole just increase spending. It’ll fix everything. Give me a break.
And reports of the Wilpons personal losses due to Madoff have been reported from anywhere between $300 to $700 million. Not to mention legal fees regarding their being sued and the $162 million settlement they paid the trustees. Sounds like a drop in the bucket, right?
Excellent post Sane.
Yep you know whay the reports vary?
Because no has any idea if the Wilpons even lost a cent!
They got sued for a billion dollars as winners.
So minus what you think they lost from what Picard said they gained and tell me they lost a penny!
Sane Mets Fan: Don’t bother with him on this. He wouldn’t believe they have financial problems unless he saw their books himself.
Amen to that Metsie, why should we believe anything SA says in off season when this ownership group along with their new mouth piece has been leading Mets fans along forever, why should we believe anything they say in off season if SA has basically been not commital about this team all season and just drops a bone here and there about being “buyer”, yeah and I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale, Willamsburg!
Apologies to you and Gary Sarge, been so busy calling bull on the apologists that I have stirred up like a bees nest I never got around to thanking you and Gary for the support.
Metsie, This was a masterpiece.One more thing.Alderson should be arrested and read his rights for bringing back Acosta.This is a crime against every loyal Met fan out there to have to be subjected to this bum AGAIN!!!!!!!!GOOD LORD!!!!ARE U SERIOUS MR. ALDERSON???HAVE U NO SHAME???
For any team to make the playoffs you have to be strong up the middle (c,2b,ss, & cf) and with the exception of ss the starting lineup is unknown from day to day. Either trade Daniel Murphy where his talents will be utilized or pencil him in everyday at 2B. He’s improved significantly to where he is now dependable. He’s hitting over 280 against LP yet he continues to be platooned. It makes no sense playing a 1st baseman hitting 205 who strikes out frequently with below average home run output. It’s no wonder the defense is suspect because players have to make daily adjustments depending on who is playing where. The relief pitching is the worst in the majors. Bring up what you got from the minor leagues because they sure can’t be any worse. Hire a manager that will put the best 8 position players on the field everyday and see what happens. Young players not knowing if they are starters or utility plays havoc with young minds.
Did you stop to think about Why he is getting platooned?
Well it’s because the GM we have is still “WAITING” for Jason Bay to be our RH power bat and since he hasn’t yet our Manager needs to put more RH Bats into the lineup to make up for it.
Trading Murphy isn’t the solution here. Hell he is one of the few bright spots!
I can’t understand why whever a player not named David Wright hits above .270 the first reaction of Mets fans is to trade them?
Murphy like it or not is the heart of this team. He goes then you might as well trade the entire team and put the Buffalo roster on the Bus!
I understand the Bay situation but the players being platooned with Murphy at 2B are below average power hitters. I am a big Murphy fan who plays his heart out. I knew his grandfather well, a proud disciplined hard working World War 2 veteran. If the Mets trade him it would leave a huge hole at 2B and an even bigger one in the clubhouse. Given he has been moved around LF, 1B, 3B it is amazing he plays are well as he does at 2B.
Murphy has 30 doubles this season which is outstanding. He’s a clutch hitter who makes everyone around him better. Put the guy in the #2 spot ahead of Wright and leave them both alone. Now do you understand why I said play or trade him? The Mets have position player talent but shuffling them around from day to day can’t better any team on this planet.
Yes they are because thats all Sandy has brought onto the Roster.
Precisely!
If there was a good RH Hitter other than Wright then we would not need to platoon Murphy to try and balance out the lineup on L/R Splits.
Can he do it by replacing the OF? Nope because all of his good hitting OFers are LHH.
Can he replace Tejada? Hell no he hits Righty!
Can he replace Ike? With Who? Turner?
He has tried to platoon Thole with Nickeas who hits worse RH than Thole hits vs Lefties.
Cedeno is all there is on the RH side and while he hits better than Murphy vs Lefties and gives you some better glove he still doesn’t hit for the same power as Murphy does.
Sure they platoon Murphy but I am saying they shouldn’t! Maybe we would have those RH bats to come off the bench late in games if we didn’t platoon them!
This GM knew full well that his lineup was way too slanted to the LH Batter side before the season started and did nothing about it!
Our Starting lineup was projected as:
RHH
Tejada
Wright
Bay
LHH
Davis
Duda
Murphy
Thole
Torres being a switch hitter.
His best replacement is a left handfed bat.
If not for Hairston Bay would be replaced with a left handed bat.
And yet late in the offseason the focus was to look for yet another Left handed bat to come off the bench!
So this platoon mess is a direct result of Sany’s inaction to balance out this team and he should have forseen the troubles of being so lefty heavy and done something about it!
Especially when one third of your right handed lineup hasn’t hit in 3 years!
So Collins is doing the only thing he can do to get some RH batters in the lineup. By replacing the only guy who actually has a reliable hitting RH bat to play his position. Murphy!
And the truth is he would be better off letting Murphy hit lefties and not platooning at all!
We both strongly agree Daniel Murphy shouldn’t be platooned. I’m now wondering if he will get enough 502 plate appearances to qualify for the batting title. No, he can’t win but every player wants to say they met at least the min requirement.
I have no problem with Collins but it sure appears his habitual lineup shuffling has created nothing but paralysis by analysis. Proof is losing 10 out of 11 so what has he gained? Nothing more than team disarray, fan disguist and top management second guessing if they made a wrong manager decision. Sometimes managers shuffle line-ups hoping to give an impression they have exhausted all avenues in hopes fans, GM’s and owners won’t fault him. Who knows what really goes on inside their heads. However, the output numbers don’t lie.
Yes OSP we really aren’t in disagreement at all I just think that Terry is doing what he can with what little he has and I would just as soon have him not try and let Murphy play everyday and if we need a RH bat in the lineup let Sandy provide one!
Sandy has been targeting 2014 from the start. Why? MONEY, plain and simple. Next year Santana Bay and Wright will earn 60 million dollars. I’m guessing the rest of the payroll will be under 25 million. Only Sandy knows when he will spend money.
This is a very surprising moment for me, as I actually disagree 100% with Metsie. Listen. In just about every post I write, you will see “Set up for the future,” or “wait until 2014″ or “I would rather lose this year and keep our future than win this year and trade them all for one possible championship”. This team probably wont be winning the World Series this year considering our bullpen and the start we have had post All-Star break. Sandy does have a plan and it hasn’t changed one bit. The PLAN has ALWAYS been wait until our top young pitchers come up. Maybe you are just too impatient to realize it. We are not the Yankees, so stop acting like were supposed to win every year. We are Mets fans. We have what is called imagination and patience. It has always been our nature to be loyal fans to a usually sub-par team until some miracle happens and we become top-notch for a few years. What is going on right now is the early 80′s all over again. Is it not worth waiting for another team like the 86er’s? I say it is. Maybe that is because I wasn’t alive to see them play in real life, but from the recorded games I have seen, I am excited for the future. I can see a dynasty in our future. Laugh all you want, call me stupid, I don’t care. Every fan of this franchise will be ecstatic when we have Wheeler and Harvey as our top two starters, when David Wright is surrounded by REAL threats (assuming this year is a fluke for Davis and Duda), add guys like Wilmer Flores and imagine if a guy like Cory Vaughn finds his huge power potential. That is an exciting thought, correct? What does it matter if the 2012 team doesn’t make the playoffs? Did I miss the memo that we were supposed to? Last I checked, at the beginning of the year, nearly every baseball analyst thought we would be fighting off the Astros for “Worst team in the MLB.” Well that sure as hell didn’t work out and I am extremely happy we are doing as well as we are. The glass should always be half full! Every day we are not in last place should be exciting, because that’s where we’re supposed to be. Just a few weeks ago, we were first in the Wild Card. Pretty damn far from last place. This team may not have top tier talent YET, but 1.) we know we have the best team chemistry in baseball and 2.) we know the top talent is coming. It all comes back to the PLAN in which Metsie, and obviously a lot more of you so-called die hards, doesn’t believe exists. I learned at a very young age never to give up hope on this team unless Heilman, Sosa, or Mota were coming into the game. None of those three are relevant anymore so why give up hope? 2006, 2007, and 2008 were years we were supposed to be dominant. Well, one or all of the three mentioned above (plus the AH Tom Glavine) caused us heartache in all three years. This year, we’re supposed to be awful, yet we’re not all that bad; and still some fans act like the sky is falling because of Frank Francisco, Jon Rauch, and Ramon Ramirez. Yeah, they may be terrible, but far from what we have dealt with in the past. What I am trying to say is, we should all just take a deep breath, relax a bit, and wait like we have so many times before because… it’s what we do second best (I typed best, then realized that we are not Cubs fans… how awful that must be!). Tug said, “Ya gotta believe” for a reason. Think about that one. And with that I end my rant. LETS GO METS!
Well Reyes, One of our top two young pitchers is coming up this week…
So the wait should be over….
It’s easy to say things will get better!
We have had apresident who has said that 4 years running…
Are things better?
Citing the future is the act of a person who has no idea how to deal with the present.
If you forgo making things better NOW then you will never be in a position to have a future.
No one says you have to fix the team for this year but we are saying you need to IMPROVE NOW instead of sitting idly by and waiting for something to happen to make the big jump before you start the proccess.
And this GM is busy waiting for an angel to come in and tap this roster on the shoulder.
If you think Harvey and Wheeler are going to change what happens in the 7th, 8th and 9th inning your fooling yourself.
RA Dickey, Niese and Gee have all pitched great games for us as good as anything Wheeler or Harvey could do only to see this Bullpen blow it for them.
So unless your expecting Harvey and Wheeler to pitch complete games every outing to avoid that Bullpen we brought in your going to be $#!T out of luck getting what you think they are going to get you.
If your overweight you don’t sit around waiting for something to happen to drop 20 pounds off you before you start the proccess.
Even if it means you only drop 2 pounds this week thats just that much less you have to overcome in the future.
If you can’t find a way to improve this team now if you think you are incapable of doing so then your incapable of doing so later as well!
The path to success does not wait for an EVENT in some ethereal future to make that success happen. It is a proccess of constant and many little steps that make things better so when the time of the SURPRISE LUCK actually does come around it is more than enough to win the day!
We are not improving the team and many here are proposing to sell of what little good we DO have for something in the future we should WAIT FOR!
Well I can tell you Idle hands do the Devil’s work!
You want to see something good you have to DO somthing good. Not just fold up get rid of all your assets and hope that luck makes what you get back make you a success!
If you want to wait for harvey and Wheeler feel free but if they get here and don’t live up to your expectation what then?
What will you wait for then?
Wait for N8immo to be babe Ruth and a HOFer?
Or will you merely say then as you say now, “He’s Not Enough”
lets trade him for 4 years from now?
“The path to success does not wait for an EVENT in some ethereal future to make that success happen”
Why not? The Mets waited for Reyes and Wright before handing the keys to Omar to build around them… how come it was okay to wait back then for the young potential stars were ready to make an impact, but not okay now?
If Omar didn’t inherit young budding stars, you’re acting like he would have been able to have the same early success.
Yeah they were waiting in 2000 and 2001….
Sat on thier hands waiting for reyes and Wright and traded everyone of any worth until the got here didnt’t they?
You actually believe some of this crap you spew don’t you?
I would have to agree with jessep on that one. If on the absolute odd chance Wheeler and Harvey flop, which, again, is very unlikely, we have Mateo, Flexen, Welch, McHugh, Gorski, on top of guys we will draft in the future. Our minor leagues are setting us up for FUTURE SUCCESS! ERA is not the best determinant of young pitching success; WHIP and strikeouts tell all. Look at all the guys I just named’s WHIP and Ks. You will see a good amount of league leaders on that list. That being said, yeah, I’ll take my chances waiting. We have this off season to sign bullpen. Or, here’s a novel idea, fix the holes from within. 1.) It’s cheaper 2.) if they don’t work out, guess what?? There are more right behind them that could succeed. I feel like our player development staff knows a lot more about this organization than you or I combined. I trust them. You should too.
Hey Reyes do you go to school?
Why?
Why not just wait until someone hands you a cushy job?
There sure will be lots of them around in a year or two…
Do you wait for them? Or work hard to MAKE SURE you have what it takes to get them?
Waiting leads to nothing but AGING!
You don’t wait around for life to drop things in your lap just as an OF doesn’t wait for a ball to come to him he goes and runs to get it!
Same applies to team building or any endeavor in life!
If your just going to wait until some drasted kid makes you a World Series winner it will never happen!
And if you do what jessup proposes by the time one does he by himself won’t be enough and will be sold off for the next time in hopes TWO guys then make you a World Series winner!
Did Cashen sit around and wait for Strawberry to make the team a WS champion?
Or did he go after Darling, Trade for hernandez, Go and get ojeda and Carter?
Metsie,
You can’t argue with fans who are drinking the kool aid the Mets FO is serving (this is not to serve as an insult, so please save your harsh comebacks for someone else—it’s an opinion—if I called these fans morons, then I’d expect belligerent responses—so please, respond intelligently and accordingly and I’ll be happy to respond in kind). While I agree the Mets are taking a different approach, we as fans have been so misled and duped in the past that we just aren’t in the mood to be patient (and I believe most of us have been patient enough with the epic collapses that have befallen this grossly mismanaged franchise —thanks Fred…). The idea of SA waiting for the team to play out was very stupid….
If you see a hole in the ship, and you’re still floating successfully against the odds, why not patch up the hole in the interim while the good stuff is on its way?
Didn’t they admit the C from the Rockies (hernandez?) was too expensive for their taste? Now I’ll admit he isn’t nearly enough of a solution—but just the idea that they wouldn’t pick up the money due to him really underscores how CHEAP the organization has become. Metsie was correct—provided the ledger isn’t red, it’s fair game, even at the expense of the fans in a city where things should be different—NY.
We weren’t asking him to trade the farm system, but a simple bullpen arm BEFORE the second half would have given the team an indication that the Front Office believes in them NOW, with the idea of building MORE in the future.
It would serve as a simple sign that the Mets FO philosophy is different and they aren’t just going to stand by and WAIT for something to happen. Instead, SA and the Evil Empire (let’s face it, The Mets FO is the REAL Evil Empire. The Yankees win and they know how to operate a franchise—period–not our fault the Mets FO is incompetent and selfish—we have to pay for their stupid mistakes—i.e., Madoff) choose to sit and WAIT to see if the team is really a fluke after the All Star Break…..big mistake.
Don’t you think the players themselves know they are playing better than what they are? And don’t you think adding some reinforcements would help instill even MORE confidence in those players (i.e., Murphy, Davis (who was turning it around), Dickey, Santana, etc?
I believe in a patient approach and I know it will take time to fix this mess, but you don’t just wait for an end result….you WORK towards it, however little, to ensure it happens.
That’s the difference between being PROACTIVE and REACTIVE. As a police officer, if I waited for things to happen all the time, I’d have a high death toll on my conscience…I have to be proactive to mitigate as much damage as I can (of course never being able to omit 100 percent of it). I know the fields are unrelated, but juxtaposing both really does highlight the crux of my message here—
SA needs to stop sitting on his ass and playing his lawyer game with the fans and do something. Even if he said we are standing pat and this is what you get for now….I would eat that, albeit with a bad taste in my mouth.
But the wait and see approach after overachieving? Not a mark of a good GM. Reward your players for going above and beyond…..
I’m so done with the Mets FO….it’s very disheartening as a Mets fan to watch them cut payroll and refuse to do anything else. It’s a business for them….but it means so much more to us.
We shall see…..
Thanks all and Be safe out there
*FYI Metsie, the first () comment about no harsh comebacks was directed at those who would see my post as an insult, not you. lol Just wanted to clear that up.
Yeah I got that Bio! LOL
This sinking ship is waiting until they have enough to buy a new boat only by the time that happens they won’t need a boat just a coffin due to drowning.
LOL
You killed your argument with Darling, and that Pirates comment. Darling was a prospect when we traded for him. Who knows what moves will be made in the future to build around the DRAFTED core of players. Every single player who has played in the majors in the recent era, has been a draftee at some point. Every team in the majors that has won a world series has had a home-grown all-star on the roster. Please try to find a team that won a title without any home-grown talent. Build around your own players if you want to be successful. Guys like Wright, Wheeler, Harvey, Flores, Niese, Davis, Duda, Kirk, and Valdespin are the type of guys you need to succeed. Guys that know the organization. Add an outside all-star to that and you have a championship. Add a couple all-stars from outside the organization to complement what you have, that, Metsie, is how you build a dynasty. Keyword BUILD. Player development is the #1 key to organization success and prolonged success at that. We have one of the best minor league systems because of our excellent player development. That is a prediction of major league success in the future. We don’t need to wait until 2018, or 2021. Watch, we will make the playoffs next year and win the World Series in 2014. Write it down so I can say “I told you so” and you will remember what I’m talking about in two years.
Ok Reyes when is this trade going to happen?
How long do you need before you realize this GM isn’t ever going to make those trades?
Harvey and Wheeler are going to be here next year.
So when is this trade going to happen and who is he goinmg to trade to get them?
Please tell us exactly how far away this futurte is and if you don’t have a date I will tell you that you don’t have a future or a plan…And you don’t even have a Prayer although thats what you seem to be relying on!
GMs are called general Managers for a reason…They are syupposed to MANAGE the team, Not just sit around and balance the books hoping something good happens!
This is Moneyball pure and simple and it has failed everywhere it has ever been tried!
Don’t believe me? Name the last time a Moneyball team won a World Series!
Metsie
“This is Moneyball pure and simple and it has failed everywhere it has ever been tried! Don’t believe me? Name the last time a Moneyball team won a World Series!”
That statement only further proves your lack of understanding that a book written by an outsider is not a method teams use for winning games. If you’re going to try and tell me that Billy Beane as a GM had absolutely no positive impact on the way the game is managed in a front office, then you’re either a fool or a liar.
Nobody reads the book and then applies for a job. That’s not how real life works.
It’s just a convenient mocking tool to use when you do not understand what is going on.
And that statement by you only further proves that your intentions are to HIDE the fact we are playing Moneyball in hopes it can last more than a two year period in a market that it wasn’t invented to be used in!
Again why did we get rid of K-Rod, trade Beltran and let Reyes go without even making a bid?
MONEY!
Sorry Jessup but the Jig is up and everyone knows what your up to!
Making excuses hoping a failed system can survive long enough to sell itself!
And you know why your going to fail?
Cause Sandy doesn’t even have a plan at all! He’s just playing Moneyball while he waits for something to happen!
If he was interested in making this team better he would have done so by now!
He wouldn’t have waitied this long to declare himself a Buyer he would have gone and found something to buy!
He waited for Reyes to get an offer he couldn’t Match
He’s Waiting for Bay to become a RH Power hitter again,
He Waiting for Harvey and Wheeler to carry this team on it’s back to the World Series
he’s Waiting for next year to get draft picks he didn’t get this year.
He’s waiting for someone to be as desperate as the Marlins were when they traded Piazza for a song and a dance
He’s waiting for the Bullpen to actually play what he thought he was getting on their baseball card.
And THEN he waited until they were under .500 to go back to his original plan, do nothing, draft what kids you can, pay nothing to anyone of worth, Trade anyone of worth for more kids to increase your less than 50/50 chance of drafting or even signing what you drafted.
And Collect a big fat check until he gets fired and someone else has to clean up his mess!
A guy like Omar who will have to go overspend for talent in order to get something other than Crickets to attend!
Whats you plans for the day Sandy gets fired?
Move to Philly?
Did you read the book?
Yep did you?
Did they go after good players at any price?
Or did they merely look at the list of cheap ones and pick from that list?
Please cite the chapter your referring to when you attempt to dispute this!
They looked at attributes of the players they lost and tried to acquire players in a mix and match method to replace them.
ex: They lost Jason Giambi and figured how 2 best attributes were OBP and power. They got OBP in his brother Jeremy and power in David Justice.
Also, in Moneyball, they didn’t draft high schoolers and instead over drafted lower valued players like college seniors
Also, Moneyball featured Billy Beane, not Sandy Alderson.
Yeah they lost Giambi….How?
By refusing to pay him!
And who taught Billy Beane the methodology used in the book?
Sandy!
Also not for nothing but this idea that you or anybody uses Reyes as an example of Alderson doing a bad job, I’ve got news for you. As of this moment, he was right.
Jose Reyes is hitting .270 with a .337 on base and currently has his lowest OPS since 2005.
He’s overpaid and over guaranteed. Right now both Tejada and Murphy are having better seasons than Reyes, so if you’re going to tell me that SA was wrong with Reyes, I’m sorry I’ve yet to see it.
For nostalgia yea sure it stung, but when you pay players for performance, Reyes is not holding up his end of the bargain right now. He’s proving people like Alderson or me who doubted his financial worth correct.
So don’t bring Reyes as a reason to knock the Mets front office because right now the results are not in your favor.
We didn’t comment on how it turned out, just showed the strategy used to get there….
WAIT till the fairy gives me some help and gets a me deal too good to be true!
As for that being a right move with Reyes well we won’t really know that until the 2nd rounder we got for him is taken and signed now will we?
Good post.
If the plan is to continue rebuilding then play the young guys and stop forcing Torres and Bay upon us while Valdespin sits on the bench…
Well that WOULD be what happened if the plan was to rebuild….
But thats not really what the plan is….
The Plan that Sandy has really is about doing little to nothing so there is no reason to not sell off the rest of the salaries in the name of more kids and then retire just before they are supposed to come up and win so he doesn’t have to deal with the negativity of what he has done!
Then we willbe told DePodesta has a plan we just have to wait until 2017 or 2018 while he drafts the team that will make us good again….And when he doesn’t it will be some other neame who will need to sell of everyone who is any good in the name of collecting kids to help us win in 2021 and 2022 and on and on and on….
Just like the Pirates have done since 1993!
They were supposed to be rebuilt and winning ballgames by 1997…
How much longer before 1997 gets there for them?
“When you look at the 2012 Mets and think about the future, you know you can cross off 3B and SS, and then everything else is in doubt. That’s why you don’t buy rentals at this stage because you do not have the luxury of giving youth away right now. It has nothing to do with moneyball, sabermetrics, or Sandy Alderson.
It has everything to do with evaluating your talent, and realizing the New York Mets cannot be fixed overnight”
The problem is there is not much in AA or AAA to get excited about expect for Harvey and Wheeler. Guys like Ike, Kirk, Duda, Valdespin, Den Dekker all have big question marks that will need time to answer and only Ike seems to be someone we can really pencil in there…
But Oleo that really the problem here…
Are we fixing that issue either?
As you quoted from Jessup: “It has everything to do with evaluating your talent, and realizing the New York Mets cannot be fixed overnight”
Well who says we have to fix everything OVERNIGHT?
One night at a time would be better than waiting until we can do something overnight because if we keep on getting rid of the Murphy’s and Davis’ because they aren’t enough to make up for all the others that are not helping you will never get to the point where some ovenight fairy can fix this team!
WHY does anyone feel if it can’t be done overnight we should do nothing at all?
WHY don’t we just do a little tonite, a little next week, Some more the week after, Do much more in the offseason, Have better drafts and sign them so that next year when we are sitting 2 games over .500 or just 2 games under .500 we don’t have to throw our hands up in the air and surrender a season because there is no overnight fix to be had?
You want to build a team stop trying to do it overnight!
Do it CONSISTENTLY, EVERYDAY it’s possible to do so!
Not just wait around or sell off the few good players you do have that are NOT the problem merely because you didn’t change or try to fix the problems that made their effort not enough!
because (1) you only have so many tradeable prospects in your system and (2) Right now we need a SP, RH OF, RH C, a setup man and a closer. This isn’t a video game and you simply can’t do all of that in a 6 week period
I absolutely believe Sandy should have traded for a reliever before the ASB instead of standing still and hoping for the best. Now I would not have given up anything of real value so we wouldn’t be looking at Street, Broxton or Balfour, but anyone we would have acquired would have been better than nothing.
Now it would have all been for nothing since our SP is now almost as bad as the bullpen and we would likely be around .500 anyway, but we would have won 1 or 2 of those games at least…
No what we need is a CF and RF preferably someone who can hit LHP.
We have the starters and if this was an issue it should have been addressed BEFORE the guys we relied on got hurt.
You don’t wait till they all go down and then trade off prospects to get what you should have gotten before the season even started.
You get rid of bay and torres and you win a lot more games than we do now!
Hell benching Bay and playing Hairston is better than throwing Bay out there!
If Kirk could get into the games as opposed to sitting in the name of giving Torres some work he might not still be in a slump!
As for catcher, Thole is hitting .274 which is far better than Bay and Torres are hitting.
Putting Nickeas in there is not helping he hits worse vs Lefties than Thole does! Yet you see a lefty on the mound he’s out there!
As for the 6 week period who says it has to all be done in 6 weeks?
Fix one and then you have one less hole to deal with the NEXT 6 week period!
But to say we can’t fix it in 6 weeks so why fix it at all just pushes the impossible to do to another 6 weeks!
You never fix a thing if thats the way you think and approach.
FIX SOMETHING! Doesn’t matter if it saves this season or not it makes next season better!
less to fix the next year and if you keep on doing that soon enough there is nothing you have to fix and no need to trade prospects to win a season that half way through is above .500!