Andres Torres: The Agony and the Ecstasy

40 Comments + Add Comment

• Vinny B July 3, 2012 at 10:54 am

  I don’t know what the Mets ever saw in Torres – He can’t hit, his defense has been way overrated(He’s just another example of why you can’t trust UZR, but that’s another story), and everyone killed Pagan for making a lot of metal mistakes, but Torres makes just as many, maybe even more.

  I have no idea why the Mets made him their starting CFer in the 1st place, and why they continue to start him everyday despite all his struggles.
  • Nester July 3, 2012 at 11:09 am

    What choices do they have? You cant play Kirk against LHP and Hairston plays LF in those instances. Losing Mike Baxter hurt the club. Nobody is ready in the minors. What do you expect Collins to do?
    • Vinny B July 3, 2012 at 11:22 am

      Why can’t Kirk play against lefties? Yes, he hasn’t hit good against lefties so far, but I don’t think 55 AB’s against them is enough to judge him by. I’d give the kid a chance and play him everyday.
      • oleosmirf July 3, 2012 at 11:28 am

        he can’t play against lefties because he is essentially an automatic out against them. He’s been terrible against LHP in every level of the minors as well.

        He and Hairston make a perfect platoon as if you combine their numbers to make one player you have a player that bats .302 14 HR 44 RBI. One of the main reasons why the Mets are where they are right now…
        • Metsie July 3, 2012 at 1:11 pm

          The solution is to teach Kirk to hit lefties if you want to know the truth if the matter…And you can only do that playing against lefties!

          And I will point out that Kirk is much less an automatic out vs Lefties than Torres is vs Righties.

          Kirk does much better when he starts against lefties than he does off the bench or later in the game.
          Kirk has a .246 BA vs LHSP and fails vs Lefty Pen arms which drops his LH Splits to .182 All of his best work vs Lefties is against the starters.

          The real problem here is we have three guys playing OF who really can’t hit against one or the other. (and one who seemingly can’t hit against anyone!)

          But Kirk is young enough that he should be coached to do better vs Lefties ( a little tutoring by Keith H might help here!) and played everyday.

          We need an OFer who can hit against both and until he gets here every attempt should be made to make Kirk that guy!

          Thats why I say getting a RH Power bat should be the deadline goal even more than the Bullpen is because then we wouldn’t have the issues we have playing lefty righty splits.

          Of course a speedy CF who hits for average and can steal a base would also do the trick to avoid using Torres at all!
      • Gina July 3, 2012 at 11:31 am

        Maybe if the Mets were in last place an 20 games out of first I’d buy your argument, but we’re not. We have to scratch and claw for every win and playing Kirk against LHP in the hopes he’ll suddenly figure it out is a BAD idea.
        • Vinny B July 3, 2012 at 11:35 am

          And I would buy your argument if we would have a better option than Andres Torres. He’s just not a good player. Even if Kirk struggles, your not going to be losing much at all.
          • Gina July 3, 2012 at 11:41 am

            Well I guess you’re probably right and the difference would be negligible, but honestly they are both bad options. We really need to get someone legit at the trade deadline to play CF, preferably a right-handed, defensive minded bat.
          • oleosmirf July 3, 2012 at 11:43 am

            You couldn’t be more wrong. I mean it’s not even debatable as the numbers say it all…

            Andres Torres v. LHP: .283/.434/.400/.834
            Kirk Nieuwenhuis v. LHP: .182/.286/.236/.522

            They miss Baxter terribly though as they could platoon Baxter/Hairston in LF and Torres/Kirk in CF every single game and have an extremely productive OF.
            • Vinny B July 3, 2012 at 11:56 am

              You left out that that’s in only 60AB’s for Torres, and only 55 for Kirk. Numbers taken from limited playing time prove nothing.

              I think it’s more likely that those numbers for Torres is just a fluke. And I believe that once Kirk gets more playing time against lefties, he will start to hit them better.
              • oleosmirf July 3, 2012 at 12:03 pm

                If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

                If Torres starts losing his ability to hit LHP then sure use Kirk, but until then he has to play over him and there is no debating that.
                • Alex in CT July 3, 2012 at 12:06 pm

                  Agreed, you cant argue with those splits. They are current and viable and sometimes you have to make a decision based on the only data you have regardless of sample size.
                • Vinny B July 3, 2012 at 12:16 pm

                  Sorry, but your going to make a lot of bad decisions if your going to start players over numbers taken from such limited playing time.

                  I think Torres splits are a fluke because for his career, there’s never been that big of a difference between his splits.

                  and anyway, I remember having this same argument a week or two ago, and Torres was hitting well over .300 against lefties, so his average against them is already starting to drop, and I think it will continue to.
                  • yagottabelieve July 3, 2012 at 6:32 pm

                    The point you’re missing repeatedly here is that is NOT in any way, shape or form a small sample size. Kirk hit under .180 against LHP over his minor league career. He is now hitting .150 against them in the majors. Scouts have been saying for the past four years that he would never be a full time player because he can’t hit lefties. He is exactly what anyone who’s been paying attention should expect him to be.

                    I’m not saying that to run Kirk down. He’s one of my favorite current Mets. And as I like to point out, one of my favorite all-time Mets, Wally Backman, couldn’t hit lefties either. Yet Backman was a huge part of those great Mets teams in the 80s. The key was that Johnson used Teufel to platoon with him. In 86, batting almost exclusively against RHP, Backman hit .320 (if he’d played full time, it would have been closer to .270). It was good for the team and at the end of the day, it was good for Backman too.
                  • Vinny B July 3, 2012 at 10:07 pm

                    Under .180 his entire minor league career? I find that hard to believe since he was a .280 hitter overall. But I guess I’ll take your word for it because I can’t find his career minor league splits anywhere.

                    But I did find his splits for just last year – He hit .254 against them, which isn’t awful – Maybe he was improving against them?

                    And I never heard anyone ever say that he would never be able to hit lefties – That’s news to me.
            • Metsie July 3, 2012 at 4:40 pm

              And Kirk hits in the .240′s ve LHSPs so your really looking at a lot of ABs in that low BA which are the product of coming in to Pinch Hit late in games and getting a lefty thrown at him.
              • yagottabelieve July 3, 2012 at 6:33 pm

                Unfortunately, THAT – the LHSP vs LHP overall, IS a small sample size oddity.

                Looking at his entire career, minor leagues and major leagues combined, there’s no escaping the fact that this is a guy who has never hit lefties and who scouts have said never will.
                • Metsie July 4, 2012 at 12:04 am

                  Sounds like a job for coaching if you ask me…

                  He needs to be tutored by someone who bats lefty and had a way of dealing with them which is why I suggested Keith!
• oleosmirf July 3, 2012 at 11:19 am

  The major problem has been that Ramirez has bombed. Had he pitched like he did in years past, it would have been a great move. Torres was basically a throw-in in that trade b/c the Mets needed a capable CF.

  Obviously SF won that trade, but at the time, you can’t complain about the move as it addressed the Mets biggest need…
• Alex68 July 3, 2012 at 11:21 am

  3 words….

  PIECE… OF ….. ****
• oleosmirf July 3, 2012 at 11:52 am

  Andres Torres is god awful against RHP this season, however his numbers against LHP have been outstanding.

  v. LHP: .283/.434/.400/.834
  v. RHP: .158/.265/.228/.493

  The moral of the story is Torres should start over Kirk every single time a LHP is on the mound and Kirk should start over Torres every single time a RHP is on the mound.

  The Mets need a 5th OF that can hit RHP and Fred Lewis down in AAA with a line of .325/.410/.538/.947 and 13 SB is exactly what the Mets need in LF so Hairston and Torres don’t have to play ever against RHP.
• Hawk July 3, 2012 at 12:38 pm

  I’d rather see Captain Kirk in the outfield every day, I want to see him learn how to hit both right and left hand pitching. I’m not thrilled with Collins platooning so many players, what are we the ’69, Hodges Mets? I see incredible weakness in the line up and defense Collins puts out for left hand pitchers and I don’t see
  Torres in our future.
  • yagottabelieve July 3, 2012 at 6:36 pm

    Yeah, who does Collins think he’s coaching anyway?

    The 69 Mets? Or the 86 Mets (platooning Backman and Teufel?)

    Say, what did those teams have in common again?
• Russell Zanca July 3, 2012 at 1:25 pm

  Well, I miss Angel Pagan!
• Nolrog July 3, 2012 at 3:24 pm

  >>> saw Angel Pagan get shipped off to the San Francisco Giants where he happens to be having a stellar season with them as a matter of fact.

  As a matter of fact, he’s not. He’s having an OK season, but hardly stellar.

  He’s batting .292, OBP .341 (so still not walking much.) On pace for 77 runs and 63 RBI with 30 SB. All around, a nice offensive year.

  However . . . he’s ranked 18 out of 21 qualifed CFs in baseball (worst in the NL) , with a .975 fielding % and the 2nd most errors (most in the NL) at the position (only Baltimore’s Adam Jones has more). He has a whopping 1 assist, ranking him last in that category.

  Add that up and you get an OK season.
  • Mr North Jersey July 3, 2012 at 3:45 pm

    Sometimes a player is remembered more fondly after they are gone than when they were actually here. Pagan was a player that many wanted to see upgraded at CF when the offseason began. I recall a post sighting the available free agent options at CF and saying considering the choices I’d probably rather stay with Pagan. I felt if they were going to improve it may have to be via a trade instead. When they got Torres I knew little of him and just hoped he could at least be better defensively than Pagan was but at this point I have not seen that from Torres.

    Still I can’t escape the vivid memory of Pagan throwing to an empty 1st base last year and have no desire to have him repeat that again. The Pagan trade was for me all about Ramirez and up to now Ramirez has failed to provide us what he has for the Giants the last few seasons. That is not to say that Torres has been a complete bust to say so would be to be in denial as he has helped the Mets as well this season but overall he has lacked the defensive upgrade it was hoped he could provide at CF this season.

    The better defensive CF in my opinion is Capt Kirk and even he has had his lapses but still I find him the better choice though I admit I have a bias as I have been a fan of Kirk since he was in AA.
    • Metsie July 3, 2012 at 4:37 pm

      The first hint that something might not be right about the Pagan deal was we got back TWO players for one player we didn’t want!

      Everyone got excited about Ramirez…WHY?
      he was older than Pagan and getting paid half what he was and no one thinks there wasn’t a good reason for that?

      This is a typical bird in the had for two in the bush operation….
      Unfortunatly niether of the Birds in the Bush equaled one Pagan.

      As for our feelings about improving on him it was a fair assessment but the problem is knowing what the problem is is only half the battle.

      Anyone could see Torres was going to be no better than Pagan and Ramirez has never risen above the role of Middle Relief! Pretty much the role where pitchers who failed to be good enough to start or close go to die and become journeymen bubble type roster spots. Actual Hobo’s visit fewer cities than those types!

      Unfortunatly our FO is so focused on VALUE as opposed to performance it never occurred to them to package Pagan with something else to get better than they did!

      Any deal where they get 3 players for one is better to them regardless of the usefulness of those players they got and ability to fit them onto a roster!

      They would prefer to use the MiL roster to hold all the AAAA guys they are collecting so they can play Option/Waiver Wire games all season.

      I agreed with using Pagan as a trade chip but they pretty much just gave him away without solving EITHER problem they thoought they were getting on thier two for One sale!

      Improve the Quality not the numbers of options and those trades won’t happen.

      Should have packaged Pagan for something better, perhaps a good CF who could hit something other than Lefties or some thing that would actually serve some performance enhancing purpose.

      We didnt’t we went for the two for One deal and gave away a decent ONE for two guys not worth Squat!
• Metsie July 3, 2012 at 4:42 pm

  Kirk is the future everyday OFer of this team and while it makes some sense to protect him from Lefties while he is struggling now at some point you need him to learn how to hit against lefties and the only way to learn that is to face them!

  I would have Kieth H tutor him on how to face Lefties and best Approach them…
  Strawberry credited him with his improvement against LHP and I’m sure it would work for Kirk as well!
• Yellow_Hammer July 3, 2012 at 5:51 pm

  Where’s Angel Pagan when you need him? Oh, that’s right, we traded him for Andres Torres. Well, at least he’s got a lot of years to improve. Oh, that’s right, Torres is 34 and a half, and Pagan just turned 31. Well at least Torres weighs less on plane flights.
  To tell the truth I think I’d enjoy watching Matt Denn Decker make all those stupid plays on base and in the field. Oh, that’s right, Matt Denn Decker is a tremendous center fielder and can run like the wind. Please, don’t even utter the name…. say it…..Carlos Beltran.
• jerseymet July 3, 2012 at 6:08 pm

  Seems Torres was the perfect man to fill our love/hate relationship with Pagan; at only half the price. Hey I liked this move at the time Sandy made it. 2 players for the price of 1 (some uncertanty if we sent money with Pagan).

  Torres is a rental. Would we want to upgrade our lease? How about Shane Victorino? Both will be free agents this winter. How about Torres (1 million left on contract) and an A ball prospect for Vic (5 million LOC) and 2 million.

  Hey the Phils need prospects and they would save a cool 2 million in salary.
• jerseymet July 3, 2012 at 8:52 pm

  Platoons work. Gil Hodges swore by them.
  • Metsie July 4, 2012 at 12:07 am

    Yeah but you can’t platoon at every position….

    As I have said many times…We need a RH power bat OFer who doesn’t need to be platooned vs Righties and then you can play around with platoons.
• Fonzie13 July 4, 2012 at 3:35 am

  As bad as Torres has been I still wouldn’t want Pagan anywhere near this team. He’s still one of the worst defensive CFers in the NL, can’t throw to save his life and still makes more mental mistakes than any 2 Mets combined.

  I’d much rather go with the platoon of Kirk and Torres over Pagan. Torres has definitely regressed in CF but he’s still better defensively than Pagan and the offensive production of Kirk and Torres is still better than Pagans production.

  As much as Pagan has bounced back offensively compared to last year his OB% is not much higher than Torres’. It would be nice to have Kirk play everyday but as others have mentioned he has always struggled against lefties which is why he was always seen as a 4th OFer.

  What disappoints me more is the year that Ramirez is having. He was the centerpiece of that deal. Torres was a throw in. It would’ve been nice if some of Omar’s drafts produced something other than 1B/LF/DH types and if some of them were RH but so far we’re still waiting on that front. It would’ve been nice if some of them had some instincts for the game too.
  • Mr North Jersey July 4, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    “What disappoints me more is the year that Ramirez is having. He was the centerpiece of that deal.”

    Agreed.
• theonlymaskman July 4, 2012 at 11:08 am

  That entire trade was just execution of a peeve against Pagan. It was a dump for 2 players of questionable value. Torres is just not a quality player and was of no value from the start. There was a valid argument in picking up Ramirez to beef up the pen. So you can view Torres as the throw-in to obtain Ramirez. The problem is Ramirez hasn’t lived up to his hype. So the trade was simply a failure to state it simply. Torres should be DFA’d and Ramirez scrutininzed closely to see whether he can make the grade. In either case, this trade was a net lose for the Mets.
  • Metsie July 4, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    All you needed to know about ramirez showed up in his splits….

    Had a 3.91 ERA in Save situations over the course of his career. In 89 games he got 9 Saves out of it! and finished only 10 games out of those 89 with a 2-3 record which shows while he may have come into Save situations he really didn’t stay long enough to get them and was more likely used to face specific hitters before being replaced by some other specialist.

    The majority of his work came in No Decision and Non Save situations.

    And when you look at the Wins and Losses splits you see pretty much what we have seen this year…
    When he is good he is very very good (0.67 ERA) and when he is bad he is horrible (14.37 ERA)

    He is a coin flip through and through!

    22 Wins 18 Losses and 2-3 in Save situations, 20-15 in non save situations.

    SO that shows me that he was brought into tied games or very short leads or deficits and either gave up a run to get the loss or got a hold that the team later got a lead to give him a win.
    • theonlymaskman July 5, 2012 at 10:52 am

      Metsie, thanks for the data. Pretty much shows that trade was a lose from the start. I think we should move both these guys out of here. When Baxter comes off the DL, we should make room for him by cutting Torres. Same for Ramirez when we need room for the next youngster pitcher on the way up.
      • Met Maniac July 5, 2012 at 11:00 am

        Most of the longtime regulars here predicted failure for Torres. He was getting non-tendered the night the Mets got him. I liked the Ramirez part of the deal but never looked at his spilts. It seems he wasn’t as good as I first thought and profiles more as a ROOGY.
        • Met Maniac July 5, 2012 at 11:03 am

          Hit enter before I was finished.

          My point is that trading an everyday centerfielder with a good glove, speed, modest power and solid bat was too much to pay for a 1-2 batter reliever and an outfielder off the garbage pile.
          • Metsie July 5, 2012 at 11:35 am

            The first hint this was a bad deal should have been we got Two players back for a guy deemed not worth keeping!

            This wasn’t just some computer video game AI GM we were dealing with here…
            This was a thinking GM who got his team to a WS recently.

            He gave up two players for one which means he knew those guys individually would never equal one Pagan!

            Pagan may not have ever been a GG Candidate in CF but he looked a hell of a lot better out there than Torres has so far!