26
2012
What The Heck Are We Waiting For?
An article by 
Let it burn… We can always rebuild…
Ken Davidoff of the New York Post,says the Mets are looking outside the organization for bullpen help and are expected to be involved in trade talks for San Diego Padres closer Huston Street (how many times has his name been tied to the Mets?), Oakland A’s closer Grant Balfour, and Houston Astros starter Brett Myers.
I can just envision it now – a happy Bob Geren and Huston Street reunion.
That said, Mets assistant GM John Ricco told Davidoff that “it’s probably too early to make a move” and that the “the team willing to take on the most salary might win the player”.
General manager Sandy Alderson has repeatedly said that he is not prohibited from adding payroll and that won’t keep him from adding a player or players that he feels the team needs.
My question is why is it too early?
Are they not believing what they see when they look at their volumes and volumes of stats and find that the Mets have the worst bullpen ERA in Major League Baseball, Japanese Baseball, Dominican League Baseball, and every other Spanish speaking country in the world the enjoys our National Pastime?
Are you waiting until it’s too late so you can step in front of a mic and say that we were willing to spend if we felt the Mets had a legitimate chance to secure a playoff spot?
The White Sox didn’t wait. Based on the last four seasons I can assure you that the Phillies will not wait either, they never do.
What exactly is it that’s keeping you from undoing the lousy job you did this past winter, and adding a reliever that can actually put out a fire rather than fan or fuel the flames?
And what about a right-handed bat? Have you even considered that?
We have one of the most oddly constructed rosters I’ve ever seen in two decades. We’re carrying five middle infielders to do the job of two. We are sorely lacking some right-handed punch that this team so desperately needs.
I guess you can go on and keep waiting…
Everything has to be so damned methodical and scientific and in the meantime Rome is burning and you’re too busy trying to figure out if it’s more efficient to use water to put out the fire or a CO2 fire extinguisher.
We ain’t got all damned day here. July is right around the corner…
This genius concluded buying now always trumps waiting.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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Here is some advice from Albert Einstein for Sandy….
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
What did that nerd know about baseball?
Or are you saying lets not do what we’ve done so often in the past and make moves just to say we made moves?
No dummy I’m saying whatever method he used to say Rauch, Ramirez and Francisco was worth having should be SCRAPPED!
Cause that method obviously came out with the WRONG ANSWER!
Figures you would trash one of the smartest humans that has ever lived!
Fell free to continue to show your ignorance to everyone it will save the rest of us a ton of time!
Metsie, don’t worry, the targets of satire are the least likely to get it.
Yes, because conducting negotiations in the media, where everyone can get every word out, is a great idea.
The ChiSox didn’t even emerge as a contender for Youkilis until a week before the deal actually happened.
How long before the deal went down were people saying Beltran was headed to the Giants?
How long before the deal went down were people saying Beltran was headed to the Giants”
Uhhhh… Everyone.. It was either giants or braves for “young pitching” SF budge, braves didn’t bang… We got wheeler…
No, the Giants were mentioned, but there were no rumors of an actual deal, just speculation. In fact, it was supposedly the demand of a high end prospect that was “killing” the deal.
Hey Dummy a rumor IS created via speculation!
So there really isn’t a whole lot of difference between the two now is there?
it was supposedly the demand of a high end prospect that was “killing” the deal”
Are you THAT dumb??? Didn’t the giants end up giving up their high end prospect for beltran?? It was rumor yes, but it ended up happening… My god.. You’re too stubborn bro, for someone like you i’d recommend to be more humble…
The trade went down on 07/27. Do you think they could’ve gotten the prospect that they did doing it a month sooner?
I think there are 2 arguments. Yes because they would of gotten more playing time out of Beltran, or no because there wasn’t enough of a market to increase his demand.
“My question is why is it too early?”
Could be cause teams may not be ready to unload said relievers or maybe the asking price is too high or maybe internal resolutions are being considered 1st or maybe none of the above.
I was discussing this yesterday and I have nothing to base it on but I’m of the opinion that nothing if anything at all will probably be done until sometime between the ASG and the trading deadline.
Why can’t you just base your opinion that it is all Sandy’s fault and just move on…
This new wild-card is going to make for a interesting trade deadline. Since there are less of the typical “sellers” I foresee more trades between competitors.
And why would a team like Houston trade Myers now? Any seller wants a market to develop and create demand. Maybe if he beats his wife again he will get moved quicker.
Let’s hold off on killing Sandy until the deadline passes, see where the team is and what moves if any made.
No need to go there dude. Simply put there may be a number of reasons behind Ricco’s comment some may be valid and some may not. I don’t know. Just trying to look at it practically rather than the alternative.
Not going to harp on this but do you think he is blameless in regards to the state of the Pen?
It’s been his main focus for two years now how many years before you knock him on his lack of success?
We were ready to throw Ike and Murphy under the bus after three months of play but two years is still too short to start asking Sandy why has he failed on what he has focused on the most?
No need to reply I’m not looking to start a debate just stating the obvious here that the one thing Sandy has been so focused on is the thing that has been made the worst both times he focused on it.
Let’s hold off on killing Sandy until the deadline passes, see where the team is and what moves if any made”
So we expect him to fix the bullpen in 1 month when he had a whole offseason to do it he gave us crap, why on earth should we trust/believe in him? because he won a championship 25 years ago? because he speaks proper english? Ivy school?
OK before I make my comment lets just agree that what I say doesn’t matter to you unless my opinion is to completely kill the GM.
Now that is out of the way, whether you liked the off-season moves or not (lets go under the assumption that you didn’t) he took what he had for a budget and focused directly on the pen. Francisco has been pretty serviceable and the rest of the moves were flops. So no we are at the deadline with a overachieving team in desperate need of bullpen help.
The amount of trades that have occurred this season can be counted on one hand since no team is going to move talent until usually the ASG time. So we are at that time and just like you said our patron saint has one month to fix it all. So before we rail on him for for his lack of moves at the trade deadline, lets see what happens happens at the trade deadline first.
You believe mentioned recently that the team is playing way above their heads. If that is the case what you you want the team to do. Go for it and salvage some long term pieces, go for it and try and make a move that just adds to the payroll, both or do nothing major because the team shouldn’t be winning anyway?
Excellent points.
I suspect the same fans that wanted to hold onto KRod and Beltran last year b/c they believed we could reach post season will be the same ones that want to see a multitude of moves made at this trade deadline. And let’s face it….we’re not one piece away from post season right now – we’re several pieces away.
It’s going to be interesting to see what transpires over the next month.
“I suspect the same fans that wanted to hold onto KRod and Beltran last year b/c they believed we could reach post season will be the same ones that want to see a multitude of moves made at this trade deadline”
Hi Srt,
I gather most of us who wanted to hold onto KRod and Beltran last season do not want to see a lot of moves at all, just ones that will help the club instead of hurt it.
Which is it? Did you want to keep Rodriguez or did you want to help the club?
Salty, let’s wait and see,.. but word of advise, don’t hold your breath with this GM.. He sucks…
I know that is you opinion of the GM but what would you like him to do? What move(s) could Sandy do for you to say WOW, I can’t believe the guy did this, maybe, just maybe he doesn’t want to destroy the team.
You seem to think our problem with Sandy is the moves he has not made….
So far from the truth…
It’s the moves he HAS made…the FOCUS he has given and yet failed anyway that is the problem with Sandy!
I’m gonna let you guys worry about the problems with Sandy…
Answer my question Alex and now Metsie, instead of just hating on him because you have no faith in anything that he can possible do, what would you like to see him do? What kind of reasonable moves would you like to see? Not a tough question and I know you don’t think he will do what you want him to do. But lets hear what you want so that way we can have a constructive path towards either killing him at the deadline or saying ya know what he surprised me.
Again just to remind you of my promise to you guys, if the man don’t do squat through next off-season I will print up as many shirts as I need to saying “The Core was Right”.
What would I like to see him do?
Nt bring in players that suck while getting rid of players who are playing some pretty damn good baseball!
You keep missing the point here….I wonder why?
It’s not that we want him to DO something we want him to STOP DOING the something he has done which is to date…
Fix a bullpen that had a 3.94 ERA with one that had a 4.33 ERA and then fixing that one with a Bullpen that has a 5.21 ERA….
Fixing the CF position by replacing a guy who hit .262 last year and .299 this year with a guy who hits .213
Maybe not replace a guy who won a batting title because you were worried he would get hurt and miss games with a guy who got hurt and missed more games in half a season than the guy he replaced missed all of last year!
Maybe instead of paying 12 mil over two years for a closer pay twice that for a guy who wouldn’t not leave us in a position to blow many saves because we have an extra 20 HRs and 57 RBI!
You think it’s all about what we want sandy to do…It’s about what he has DONE!
And if you must know what we would like Sandy to do is STOP USING whatever it is he is usuing to determine what to keep and what to get because that has failed him at almost every decision he has made so far!
I know what the core’s talking points are regarding why they do not like Sandy. It is shouted every day here and that is not answering the question that I asked.
Again what I am asking is, what would you like him to do moving forward. What would make you and others happy. You mentioned CarGon below, but I look at that as more of a pipe dream. What approach would you like the front office to take with this team currently?
I would like him to chage the way he evaluates keepers, purgers and getters because whatever system he is using to evaluate those moves has failed him EVERY TIME!
Thats what I want him to do…Stop using whatever method he has been for evaluating who to get who not to keep.
Maybe change his philosophy about thinking not paying a lot is better because if the acqusitions he has made to date is what we can expect to get with all this payroll flexability he has been working on getting then we are desperatly screwed!
What do we want Sandy to do?
STOP SCREWING THE POOCH everytime he makes a move!
Stop showing up with the short end of the acquisition stick!
I would trade 4 torres’ and 10 Ramirez’s to get Pagan back and it would have been well worth it!
So far every guy he has gotten rid of did the opposite of what he expected them to do as has every guy he has brought in done the opposite of what he expected to do!
What has come in has sucked and what went out is playing some pretty good baseball!
Did Mitt Romney teach you how to dodge a question?
No but you do seem to have taken some Lessons from Obama on how to avoid points made and twist the conversation to something else…
Hey speaking of which….Don’t you find it odd that fast and furious which is not classified involkes executive priviledge but things like Olympic games which are highly classified easily talked about!
If Fast and Furious was run by the same guys Obama has running the NSA Congress would have all the documents and wouldn’t need a subpeona…just pick up the times and read the resports….
Remember you brought politics into it I just added my own!
Woo! Politics!
Ya, this will work out well.
Never-mind Metsie, I tried man. All I am asking is how you want the team to move forward and what would make you happy and you and others keeping going back in the past or just bring up something else entirely. Vinnie B figured out how to answer the question and I was fine with your CarGon response but all I asked is let go of the hate for a minute and tell me how you want to approach the trade deadline. It wasn’t a hard question.
And I told you a hange of philosophy that stops thinking Beltran and Pagan is not worth keeping but getting Rauch and Ramirez and Francisco is!
I’m not complaining that Sandy hasn’t made a move in fact considering his past moves NOT doing something is better than when he decides to DO something!
If your not getting that I can’t really put it any plainer for you!
The guy has failed in every decision he has made so far!
You think there is a move out there that can undo all that?
Here are a few….
Trade Torres and Ramirez for Pagan and get him back to play CF.
Take the money he paid Rauch and Francisco and get Beltran or k-Rod back!
Those would at least show me he realized he made a mistake and tried to undo them!
Bottomline to me is Sandy isn’t a bad manager becauase he hasn’t made a move to make us better…it’s because all his moves made us WORSE than we were and if he had done NOTHING instead we might be in a better place today so that we didn’t NEED to make a move to rescue the season!
“What move(s) could Sandy do for you to say WOW, I can’t believe the guy did this”
Ok, I got one.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/06/brewers-prepared-to-move-greinke-if-no-extension.html
Mets aren’t gonna get him, but that would certainly “wow” me if the Mets made a bold move like that.
That would be eye opening and probably improve the team, but it doesn’t address an impending need. Our current rotation is pretty solid and we have some young guns making their way up now.
Plus, what would the Brewers want? If they are serious about extending him, this wouldn’t be a salary eating deal. They want prospects and he’s only a half year rental.
THANK YOU VINNIE B! Holy crap that wasn’t too hard was it.
I would definitely welcome it because even though you have to give up one of our pitching prospects, he is young enough that it would work short and long term as long as he was resigned. My only issue and I don’t know if it is a issue anymore is the past anxiety issues and how he would feel about coming to NY. His 3 post season performances were not good but most likely not even related but that is a easy pressure related game log to pull on the fly…
That’s the problem with a guy like Grienke. He’s had that anxiety issue over the years and didn’t want to go to any large market team let alone a NY team. Helluva pitcher though I could see him end up in St Louis.
Ok you ot your answer from both me and Vinnie B!
NOW time for some quid pro quo….
What move has Sandy made that has actually improved the MLB team?
Show us your pass vs scale chart on the deals he has made to date….
No, he got an answer from Vinny. You don’t even have the guts to stand by your proposal that the Rockies want to trade Gonzalez.
yes Danal whatever you say but it’s time to change your diaper cause you messed yourself yet again!
Salty,
I posted this yesterday about some moves Sandy could have made over the winter to help the bullpen in lieu of the ones he did:
“BTW – of the approximately 50 free agent relievers (some good, some bad, some in between, of course) only three of them got more than Frank Francisco. Does that mean that Sandy didn’t have other choices less expensive to chose from? I mentioned two already with proven relievers in Kansas City, RHP Broxton (who already has 18 saves and is being paid $2 million less than Francisco (with a career 1.24 WHIP and 3.08 ERA) and LHP specialist Mijares, a relief specialist being paid $925K sporing a 1.09 WHIP, 1.84 ERA and with nine holds and just one blown save in 36 appearances (just over 29 total innings) and a career WHIP of 1.25 and 2.95 ERA Those two combined cost a total $4,925,000.
If we could have purchased relievers of their caliber for a combined $5 million, why did we go after older pitchers Rauch and Francisco if not them, then why not others?”
Again I am asking for right now, not then. There are so many other factors that had a cloud over the FA to Mets market or Trade to Mets that are not here now and they are rehased every day here. So I am in the now and pretty tired of rehashing the past. As stated below I think the moves flopped except for Franciso has has been pretty servicable.
The topis is the trade market. What would make Joey happy. Besides a box of chocolates what can Sandy give you to say hey, I am happy he went into that direction. With this current club Joey, what direction would you like the FO to go in?
You got answers from both me and Vinny B…..
Yet you still are here insisting that there is some move we can GUARANTEE we make that will save Sandy and absolve him from all the bad moves he has made so far?
There isn’t a deal like that in all of the MLB!
He will still be judged by the entirety of his works not just one deal or another.
CMON get that IQ in gear and read my posts. I am not trying to defend Sandy, I am not trying to help him save his legacy. You guys started bashing him about the deadline and provided now solutions so I wanted to know what approach deadline would make you happy. That’s it. So your answer is getting a big fish in the OF and Vinnies is getting a Stud starter, thank you.
My approach is to work on the Pen and getting more stability in our musical chairs of an outfield would be great if possible or even a real second baseman. I would only touch the rotation if there was a good move that required trading a Harvey or Wheeler. If those guys aren’t moved then there is no reason to go there. That’s how I would like Sandy to approach the trade market. There is no reason why moves cant be made now to assist the team now while not throwing away the longer term view.
More work on a pen that both times Sandy worked on them made them worse?
Thats your answer here?
If an idiot hits his own hand trying to hammer the same nail twice do you solve that by saying try one more time go ahead or change his method so he doesn’t make the same dumb mistake a third time in a row?
I have yet to hear a single name put forth by you to solbve our issues yet here you are complaining we didn’t come up with names (yet me and Vinny did!)
So lets hear your names that Sandy is going to get to fix the mess HE CREATED and the reason why we rake him over the coals….
OK this will probably be the last post because you really can’t get out of your own way and I am totally getting sucked into the Metsie comment tornado. Lets not shoot for 300 comments OK? I know its not a good comment post unless we push the page into the grey section, but lets just try ok?
“If an idiot hits his own hand trying to hammer the same nail twice do you solve that by saying try one more time go ahead or change his method so he doesn’t make the same dumb mistake a third time in a row?”
So like you said before in other comments you want him to change his approach. For the fifth time what approach do you want him to take. I told you what approach I want him to take and you keep reverting about how mad you are about the prior moves. How do you want the team to handle the trade deadline. I’m not even worried about specific names more of a direction.
But if you want names, here you go.A Bret Myers would be great. It would probably be more of a salary dump then a prospect loss. I am not concerned about his personal wife issues and he has pitched under pressure situation. There are so many relievers and I don’t know all that are technically available but here are some more Matt Capps, Ryan Cook, Brandon League, not Street due to Geren personal issues.
As for a blockbuster I thought the CarGon suggestion was awesome. Probably would never happen but if he can be had eff Wheeler. How about a Carlos Quentin, he gets injured a lot but that probably keeps value down and the got has some power that the team desperately needs. Josh Willingham…
Can you Metsie, just let go of the past for one minute and just say what approach would make you happy. Lets pretend there is no Sandy or the other sabergoons in the office. Metsie is the GM, how does Metsie approach the trade deadline with a overachieving team, that still probably has some payroll flexibility issues, a decent amount of pitching prospects and no power and a pen full of dying horses. Metsie you can do it man. GO!
Hi Salty,
I wouldn’t venture a guess when it comes to future trades. All I can do is to look at those made, see who we gave up and got for return and whether or not it seems as a good trade or not from this fan’s perspective. And that unfortunately includes making monetary commitments for more than two years.
I mentioned those two free agent relievers signed by the Royals over the winter as examples of younger relievers with proven track records which we could have considered over the likes of Francisco and Rauch. Did we not go after those types based on their contribution on the field or was it that Broxton becomes a free agent next season and that Mijares will be eligible for arbitration as well. The way both have been performing in their young careers to date we know are going to be paid more than they are now – and with Broxton, more than a two-year deal would be sought after by his agent.
I also contested last winter that the Pagan trade was a risk considering the two players we got in return but with Pagan again showing signs that he was playing without his head on straight perhaps if Torres had a return to being a .260/.270 hitter then it would be a good one with Ramirez being the key as long as the Mets had more plans up their sleeves than having a 34 year old with a .241 lifetime batting average roaming center. But Kirk didn’t even make the team coming out of spring training and over the winter Torres was already slated as being our new center fielder.
Yet, I also knew Angel was up for arbitration as well and his 2012 salary is now on par with Torres and Ramirez combined — so two roster spots filled for the price of one.
That’s why I think the trades made by this organization have less to do with improving the team as it is fielding a team for the least amount of money possible.
Hey Joey, a simple explanation can be made with Broxton. As with most teams, his injury history kept the Mets out of it. Plain and simple, it seems obvious that with the recent injury history the front office wasn’t looking to add players coming off of serious injuries or those who may have chronic health problems. Francisco and Rauch have been serviceable, but not spectacular throughout their careers. Ramirez really had a few nice seasons the past 3 or 4 years. Were they the best moves? Obviously not, but he made the moves within the budget he had, and early hoping to avoid bidding wars. Now, in hind sight, reliever prices really weren’t as high as expected in the off season and maybe he could have signed other pitchers within the budgetary constraints. However, Rauch and Ramirez’ performances have been worse than could have been predicted. Francisco does what most Mets closers do, he makes the ninth inning interesting every time he takes the mound. A tradition with names like K-Rod, Franco, and Benitez. And obviously, the recent injury doesn’t help at all.
These guys operate at a snail’s pace. You’ll just have to relax and get used to it. It’s a very reactive operation and you want them to be proactive. That’s not gonna happen. Everything is based upon stats and they hate small sample sizes. They wont pay attention to the bullpen until they have at least 100 games worth of data. There is no emotion involved here or passion, just numbers. Remember they are not Mets fans like us, just a bunch of empty suits who abide by their protocols. They get paid no matter if the Mets win or lose. And from what I’ve heard they get paid more than most.
Do you really want emotion guiding trades and free agent signings? Be honest, because those can fluctuate on a pitch by pitch basis. I think the “detached” approach allows you to look at things objectively and consider options available to you.
Let’s not forget that especially with the extra wild card, and it still being relatively early enough before the trade deadline, that there probably aren’t many teams looking to sell at the moment. The only teams you can really say are truly out of it are the Cubs, Padres, Mariners, Astros, Rockies and Twins.
Now’s not a great time to be looking to make a deal unless you want to pay a high price, which let’s be honest doesn’t fit for a team that is overperforming and not one move away from sure fire contending status.
With the additional WC this year, very few teams right now are willing to raise up the white flag as non contenders this year. Even though the Mets look like a .500 team, I know very few fans who want to right off the season right now.
So ‘what the heck are we waiting for’ is probably as simple as that.
Are we in this race this year?
If so, who is not in the race that are willing to be sellers right now and match up with a trade on what we’re looking for?
I’ve heard quotes that they’re currently doing the leg work on what might be available, what we could get, if we’re going to be buyers. I’m O.K. with not reading about any rumors linking us up with anyone right now. This FO seems to hold their cards closer to their vest on things like this than ones in the past.
The Cubs, Astros, Mariners, Twins, Padres, Rockies, Brewers, Red Sox and Royals are all confirmed sellers. I see lots of cop outs and excuses from the usual suspects here. The players mentioned in the Post article are all available and play for confirmed sellers. Mentioning the new CBA or saying that the Cubs and Astros dont know if they are still in wild card race is about as ridiculous a defense of this front office as one can imagine. In fact it’s asinine. Pure Sandy worship at iy’s most ludicrous.
Red Sox are sellers?? Really? If so i am shocked… but the other teams i see them being sellers NOW, but of course, now that you have mentioned those teams i am sure sandy’s apologist will come and say those teams suck, and the players they have are not good hence the record of the team so… Excuses, after excuses!
Where did you get this list of confirmed sellers from?
If the Red Sox are on this list, might as well throw the Mets on the list as well. We’ve got the same number of losses and only 1 more win than the Red Sox. Red Sox are only 3 more back in their division than Mets are in theirs.
The BoSox are 2 games out of a wild card spot. Why do you say they are sellers? Because they dumped a .233/.314/.373 hitter taking up the spot of a surging rookie?
You do know they just traded Youklis right?
That was not a seller move?
Read my post again, Mr 303 IQ
Read it the first time…still can’t find any signs of intelligent thought in it just the usual Parrot crap you normally say!
So, I directly referred to the Youkilis trade, but you imply that I hadn’t heard about the trade means that I’m the one lacking intelligence.
Sure, that makes perfect sense.
It makes way more sense than you just admitting you didn’t read it, didn’t get it and was more interested in reacting than fooling people into believing you aren’t a raving idiot.
Metsie, hate to tell you, but no it wasn’t.. RS had no spot for him… Sorry i agree with donal on this one…
Sure they had no spot for him…They had a rookie playing!
I don’t consider a guy’s performace to determine if he is a sell or a buy…
When you trade a high priced highly respected player for kids it’s a sell as far as I’m concerned.
The only thing you can say is trading him was not an admission of giving up on the season because he wasn’t part of it…
And lets see how his numbers change now that he doesn’t have a rookie taking playing time away from him.
Here is a great article on Youk if you are interested.:
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8093512/red-sox-nation-says-good-bye-kevin-youkilis
Living in Sox nation, most Sox fans believe that wasn’t a selling move at all. That was getting rid of a unproductive player that was just a headache.
I would swap the Sox with Oakland, there will never be buy in that team until the stadium deal is figured out.
By the all star break I wouldn’t be surprised if Phili will be in sell mode as well. The Marlins should be with their second worst run differential in the MLB, but don’t think they have the guts to do that this year.
It depends because the Phillies are so invested in their older players, they may try to make a move for a hitter who can turn them around.
or make the moves for a younger player, but to work towards next season when they might have the Howards and Utleys back.
The Red Sox trading Youkilis was a circumstance where they didn’t have playing time and he wasn’t producing. I wouldn’t call them sellers. And as recently as yesterday Jon Morosi was saying the Brewers and Royals still think they have a shot and aren’t ready to be making deals yet. Obviously, that can change, but at the moment they’re not ready to be sellers.
In the AL there are 11 teams either with a playoff spot right now or within 5 games of one.
Same in the NL. That means, there are 22 theoretically looking to buy ( and maybe 1 or 2 more if the Phillies think they can turn it around). Of the remaining teams, who has something we want at a price we can afford?
I’d take Huston Street in a heartbeat. Are the Padres going to the playoffs? Act fast or lose.
Street hates Bob Geren. Would you bring that kind of trouble into the clubhouse?
Of the remaining teams, who has something we want at a price we can afford?”
Lmao… You can’t make this up… Right on cue i knew one idiot where gonna poitn that out.. Didn’t we save up a lot of $ on Reyes, Beltran and krod? I mean, we are looking for bullpen help, Balfour, Huston Street, some names out there,… Jsut sayin
Colorado is 14 games out and they have a guy named Gonzalez who would solve a few problems for our lineup.
The price might be steep but he would do a hell of a lot more for us than any Bullpen these guys would like considering what they have liked in the past.
Can you imagine???? CarGo?? on the mets??? Nah….. He’s actually a good player… Sandy likes the cheap crap… 10 players for $1 million each, one of them HAVE to pan out, therefore he gets praised by saber gooners…
I’ll be honest I would expect carGo’s HR numbers to drop to around 10 (from his current 17) if he played for us…
Which would make him the HR leader on our team! LOL
I would give them (Not all but some combination) anyone from Flores, Den Decker, Familia, Mejia even Valdespin if that would get it done….But I’m sure they would want three players and I wouldn’t be so quick to give them all three from that list.
I’ll be honest in that I haven’t really looked at what the Rockies might need and want for that deal but I also admit they will want a lof for that deal to happen.
As long as it doesn’t include Harvey or Wheeler nor any of the kids we have already promoted (Davis, Duda, Kirk) then I would very much consider it.
Metsie if the Rockies were dangling Cargo and wanted Duda as part of a deal and if that’s what it took to get it done than I would do it.
I like Duda and I think he’ll have his share of 30 HR seasons before he’s done but Cargo can play his position and is a Gold Glove defender which is invaluable and what the Mets need as you already know. He’s a much more dynamic player than Duda had a better arm. and that’s essentially who he’ll be replacing AND they’re both about the same age!!!
I have no problem including Duda if that’s who the Rockies wanted. You know as well as I do that you’re going to have to give to get, take risks in order to win – which is something the moneyball/saber CLOWNS don’t do. They’re too busy playing everything close to the vest and being, like KMaxx said, reactive instead of proactive.
Proactive is how you win, not reactive
And btw outstanding post by Joe D and I see all the Sandy Lovers coming out and defending their GOD instead of thinking about what’s best for the Mets team (which will be hear long after Alderson is gone and that can’t come soon enough for me) TO WIN
“I see all the Sandy Lovers coming out and defending their GOD instead of thinking about what’s best for the Mets team”
I see the opposite, just the haters hatting and not suggesting anything. I’ve asked a couple times for something and only Metsie has thrown out any names…
So what kind of move could Sandy do where you wehere like “holy crap I didn’t think he had it in him”. With this overachieving club what direction should Cardinal Sandy go in? and I don’t mean the direction of the kitchen to cook a tuna casserole.
I dunno but first stop with your Freeportia act in the shout box
You are calling out someone using sock puppets? Really?
Yep I am,
At least i identified myself as Bayonne when I use KafKaMyAss – like I’m doing now. ANd that’s the name i’m going to keep when i come back.
Now back to the topic of this blog post.
You mean the topic of people using sock puppets in the shoutbox?
I like how you derail the conversation and try to tell me to get back on topic.
You kids these days.
HUH? That was out of left field, sorry Mr. paranoid, it’s not me.
Now back to my question seems to me now one wants to go on the record because they are afraid Sandy might actually do something they want him to do.
“Metsie if the Rockies were dangling Cargo and wanted Duda as part of a deal and if that’s what it took to get it done than I would do it.”
Duda’s mother would make that deal if she were GM of the Mets. That is insanely one sided.
Alderson would need incriminating photos of the entire Rockies front office for that deal.
Way to twist what he said mr Literal Looney!
He said PART of a deal he didn’t say that was all they would get….
Only a simpleton like you would read that into what he said!
Exactly, Metsie. Duda alone for Cargo? Absolutely not, of COURSE it’s going to take more than that.
Like a ski mask and a shotgun, for instance.
The only way DAnal can ever make an argument is if he twists what you said bad enough to the point of redicululousness that his simple mind can come up with a point that makes him look like he has one!
He’s a brainless twit who just badgers posters, twists what they say so he can try and make them seem unreasonable and stupid when the only one here who actually fits that description is danal himself!
What are the other parts? Harvey and Wheeler? Cuz Duda ain’t the center piece of a deal for Gonzalez.
Duda is a borderline call there Bay I do agree…
I sure would consider it if it meant we didn’t have to give up as much on the prospect side of the deal.
The real problem here is we need to replace Bay but there is no way to do it without just biting the bullet and eating a ton of money…
And what has happened to indicate the Rockies are looking to trade him?
ummm. they suck!!! plus, it has been “rumored” the rockies are looking for young players to stock the minors
“ummm. they suck!!! plus, it has been “rumored” the rockies are looking for young players to stock the minors”
You can’t get much younger than a 26 year old MVP candidate.
Helton and Cuddyer are more likely trade candidates.
What has happened t indicate they won’t?
Two can play the prove your point and show evidence game…
And those who are smarter than 3 year olds usually win!
The “show evidence game” doesn’t work with negatives. Otherwise I can ask you to show proof the Yankees aren’t trying to deal Cano.
Prove to me the Cardinals don’t want to deal Beltran.
You can’t prove a negative. Logic dictates that those asserting the affirmative must back up their position.
The Rockies have Gonzalez locked up until 2017. They would have to be nuts/about to be contracted to pull something like that.
Sure it does…when you show proof of your side then I’ll show you mine!
You have none and constantly state your fantasy as fact without proof and expect the rest of us to show proof your wrong…
We don’t need proof we have track record…your ALWAYS wrong!
No, you made the positive assertion that the Rockies are looking to trade Gonzalez. You have to back it up.
And in no small part because it is an extraordinary claim. He’s 26, puts up MVP performances and is locked up through 2017 at a total of $75 million+ . It makes no sense for a team most likely looking to rebuild. This is the kind of guy you rebuild around.
Yeah When didI assert that?
Please post the quote where I said positively they were looking to trade anyone?
All I said very likely sellers and we matched up…
Only you reading and injecting your fantasy of what you would like us to say so you could be right about something heard or read what you suggest!
Just as you read that Bayonne mentioning Duda meant he POSITIVELY SUGGESTED a straight up trade!
You really do suck at this stuff Donal and you do your best work when you stay quiet and don’t post!
You specifically named Gonzalez. And then when that was challenged using logic, you went into bizarre “try out shouting the other guy to hide the fact you are wrong” mode.
the only reference to the Rockies trading Gonzalez in the mainstream media is by Joel Sherman. Hasn’t that guy printed enough stupid things for someone with a 303 IQ to take his claims with a grain of salt?
Everything else that addresses that idea is debunking and making fun of Sherman’s suggestion.
Yeah I know what I did…the problem hereis YOU don’t know what I did because you too stupid to read without inserting your fantasy of what you WANTED ME TO SAY into…
Which is why you are one of the worst posters and debaters on MMO!
“duuuuh, did you forget about Youkilis”
-Mr 303 IQ responding to a post where I specifically stated Youkilis’ current slash line.
Anyway, I’m done with this whole stupid topic. The idea you are pushing that the Rockies want to trade Gonzalez is stupid for many reasons and there is no proof they have even seriously tried. I have no desire to further embrace your lunacy.
You can continue to go on about it since I know you need the last word for validation.
You were done (and finished) before you even started!
Your an idiot who just says whatever he wants to say regardless of what others actually said….
Nitey Night Danal!
That would be amazing if the Mets got him and one of the few players that I wouldn’t mind trading high level prospects for, but you think the Rockies would ever do that, CMON.
He is 26 and signed through 2017 with a pricey contract but very reasonable if he continues to do what you do.
Also just to put more gas on the fire with you Wright haters, but this would be a great move if you didn’t want to resign Wright as well. You get the better numbers, with a younger player, at probably the same cost.
I would not expect that deal to have any affect on Wrght’s status other than a higher BA because he isn’t the only guy to worry about,
The person it affects is Bay as he would likely be cut!
was looking at it only from a payroll perspective.
Well they need pitching badly….(Which is where Familia and Mejia come in.) They are currently using a 4 man rotation!!!!!
They want to get younger…
I don’t pretend to know what it would take just pointing out that they are in a tailspin and in desperate need of multiple solutions to multiple problems and since they want to get younger that is the perfect type of team to try and make a multipleyer for All star type deal with.
Would they do it?
No one knows but you won’t know untill someone picks up the phone and puts the thought in thier head.
I’m sure there are plenty of teams who might matchup better with them than we do.
But that doesn’t mean we don’t match up at all or can;t get a deal done it’s just all about the fact are you willing to pay the price and lose some promising kids to get him?
They are actually a pretty young team, they just suk.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/COL/2012.shtml
Looking at the roster I would say they would want to address 1st and Pitching. Payroll is not a issue right now with 78m but in a couple more years having both Tulo and CarGon on the same team with be hard if they have to sign these other young guys (I really don’t know what their value is and if they are any good).
My gut says they wouldn’t trade CarGon but I would have no problem getting rid of either Harvey/Wheeler plus a b+ lvl prospect and maybe say Ike/Duda to help at first. No problem at all.
Again, you can’t get your mind off spending just to spend. What is the going rate for these players?
If the Padres say “Matt Harvey for Huston Street” are you OK with that?
The A’s are 4.5 games out of a Wild Card spot. They aren’t just going to give away a guy like Balfour.
Actually, it is 12 AL teams. KC is 5 games out of first in the Central.
Part of what may be happening is they can’t find any pen arms they trust going after…They have been burned two offseasons running now when they thought they had fixed the pen only to make it worse than it was.
I personally think they are not going to go outside to fix the pen and do it with guys like Mejia and Beato, They already gave up on Bautista being the long relief and are keeping hefner for that role now.
Hampson is getting his chance if they could just get to a save situation for him…
I think they are waiting or looking for RH Power bat to play LF and will patch up the pen with Minor Leaguers.
The problem is not many are available and if any are they probably will cost them something they aren’t too quick to let go.
Hefner….if I’m not mistaken he’s been used exactly twice in 15 days. Is there some reason he’s taking up a BP slot? If he’s going to stay and be used in the long man role, then get rid of Batista and upgrade there – right?
Hefner’s starting to remind me of Aaron Sele in 2007. For some reason Willie just didn’t like using that guy. Two weeks would go by without a Sele spotting on the mound.
Yes you need to keep a long reliever on the Roster in case of a Starter going down or geting knocked out early!
Having Hefner has allowed them to use Bautista more often since he is not needed to be held back to make a spot start or come in and pitch 4 or 5 innings for you!
If we find someone to pitch the later innings so that we didn’t have to use bautista then you could replace Hefner on the roster.
Remember we have to be prepared as we have two guys in the starting rotation that are coming off shoulder surgery and could go down at the snap of a finger!
So thats why Hefner is still here. Mostly to do with the fact we are using Bautista because we don’t trust all that bullpen we acquired in the offseason!
I think the Mets should waste no time in pursuing Huston Street. Any team looking for relief will target him first so he who acts fast will get him.
Brian, huston street is 1-0 10 svs and 1.50 ERA so far. he makes $7.5 million this year and $9 million next year.. with $500k Buyout.. With that being said other teams are looking at him as well… With this GM being so passive and needing data to do his research, i doubt we’d get him… Also, he’s being overmatched and play by other gm’s around baseball
Street had a bad relationship with Geren in Oakland. You may not want to risk that kind of problem in the club house with a team like this.
Street to the Mets??? AIM LOWER! MUCH LOWER! This front office has the same stance as M. Donald Grant and you wont see marquee players make their way to Flushing anymore. Those days are gone. Here is the Moneyball Mets mantra: Bring us your tired, your weary, your injured, your huddled masses.
Street to the Mets??? AIM LOWER! MUCH LOWER! ”
LMAO!!!!
Here is the Moneyball Mets mantra: Bring us your tired, your weary, your injured, your huddled masses”
100 % RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!
We’ve been playing Moneyball since 1991?
Usually early July is when the market finally starts moving. Teams have to decide if they are going to buy sell or hold is a big part of it.
and if you do have a team that is certainly out and looking to sell (say, SD with street), the only way they are jumping at an early offer is if you blow them away. Otherwise, they will hold the guy back closer to the deadline, letting teams panic and start upping the bidding.
so sure, you want him right now and offer Wheeler and Flores + you take the full salary? Yours! But you want him for taking 50% of the contract and give back cahoon? not happening.
it takes 2 to tango.
But what are ya willing to give up for them closers
Does anyone think that the Marlins and Phillies are as bad as their records indicate? Can they make a run? I think they will. The Mets may make the playoffs but I don’t think that they will progress deep into them. This has been a GREAT year aka 1983. Now lets not ransom the future for fools gold aka 2004 Victor Zambrano. The sucess of this team has been Buffalo. Lets keep it going. Hapson and Hefner are no worse than Sandy’s Not so FREE agent signings. Egbert, Cabrerea and James should be given a look. Right now it is a Sellers market. So lets SELL. Does anyone think that Cedeno, Rauch, Ramerez, Francisco, Quintinella, Torres, Bay or Young are going to be in a parade down the Canyon of Hero’s? Not unless they are traded to the Yankees. This team was constructed to be respectible not to win. These players do not figure in our future plans and should be moved to legitmate contenders now.
Hi Jerseymet,
I don’t think it’s a matter of ransoming our future like we did back in 2004 but rather that there is a nucleus of a very good team right now and if better moves were made regarding our bullpen we might have been stronger enough to get to the playoffs and let our pitching carry us through.
The question we must all ask is would our bullpen situation have been better if we retained KRod, Takahashi and Isringhaussen instead of getting rid of them? All three were pitching good for us and are still doing the job in Milwaukee and California. And retaining them through this season would not have involved ransoming off our future.
Not to mention so many fans no longer feeling the front office is looking to save every nickel and dime at the expense of fielding a good team and thus drawing more. While going to Citi Field is still an expensive proposition, even drawing just 2,500 extra per game would have offset Krod’s bonus and salary. So from a financial perspective, dumping him saved nothing and probably has cost the Wilpons more than they had saved. And we didn’t get anybody worth anything for KRod, either (notice I did not mention Beltran in this conversation so getting Zach Wheeler is a non-issue).
BTW – in his last 21 appearances, Krod has given up five earned runs in 19 innings (2.33 ERA) and though he has surrendered 23 hits, he has also walked only 3, giving him a 1.25 WHIP. Since he comes in the beginning of the eighth, there is no reason to suspect he wouldn’t do the same coming in the ninth. With Takahashi and Izzy in front of him – along with Francisco (better suited as a set up man, not a closer), Parnell and Byrdak, our pen – and our team – would have been a lot, lot stronger.
I think this answers the question raised in the second paragraph. Why our bulllpen was dismantled twice when it didn’t need to be is the next question and I suspect the answer is what I suggested in paragraph three.
Hi Joe
Indeed nickle and diming has played a big part in produced our sad bullpen. Relievers may be the most uncertain investment in baseball. This is true for all teams Pedro Felliciano, Heath Bell come to mind. As a financial move unloading Krod’s option was smart. Takahashi and Feliciano both seemed expensive. Izzy was a bargin. He is a winner. He should have been kept. I like the AAAA types in Buffalo they are inexpensive lottery tickets. Use them.
Sandy so overpaid for his bullpen. They could all do well in a lesser roles (for other teams).
I feel that we have the makings of a great bullpen in the system already. Gee may be moved to the pen when the prospects arrrive. Dickey I believe could be our closer. With those two men pitching 3 inning saves, the Mets could dominate. Use the other relievers to clean up the dirty innings when they occured, early in the game.
Hi Jersey Met,
Even from a finanicial perspective etting rid of KRod made no sense. The only thought I have is that having already twice taken out loans to meet end of the month operating expenses, the need for that $17 million bonus was immediate.
But if the 40 man roster payroll was the only problem facing the Mets, that $17 million bonus would be a drop in the bucket. Before KRod was signed the Wilpons had to determine if they could afford such an expense over the course of the contract. The trouble goes way beyond the roster payroll. Know I attached this yesterday but even though it was written before the civil suit settlement, it is stil worth a read to understand the situation facing the Wilpons and the reason for the drastic measures has less to do with overpaid players as it losses in revenue not only from ticket sales but from money they counted on to use each year from their Madoff returns and the mounting debt they accumulated and assumed they could handle from both those returns and over-estimating revenue projections based on 1) high attendance figures obtained through high ticket prices and concession costs that never materialized due to pricing out so many and 2) the sale of season and luxury boxes to corporations that those firms deemed too expensive and not worth it.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-02/new-york-mets-main-financial-challenge-may-be-fielding-competitive-team.html
Of course, I also agree Krod was way overpaid, but so is every athlete. It’s a part of the sports business. Even 22 year old Ruben Tejada is making in one year as much what the average worker makes in almost twelve (according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statisics, the median salary the last fiscal year was 443,460).
Hi Joe,
Thanks for bringing that article up. It looks as though the situation is not so bleek as it seemed in March. The Farm has been big for us this year. Yes the Wilpons had a bad buisness plan. Had they not spent so much money on Citi Field and were still playing in Shea; would they be flush with cash now?
As to the Tejada getting over 440k, the major league minimum, nice work if you can get it….
That some Mets get 50 times the mimimum; which many of their teammates make…This I have a problem with.
Perhaps Mr. Bay would be willing to buy one of those 20 million dollar ownership shares. LOL
Hi Jerseymet,
It actually is quite serious, despite the civil suit settlement. Came across the attached written by Dan Lewis in December which provides an excellent (though confusing) understanding of how deep those troubles really are, taking into account an accurate ballpark estimate of what eventually became the settlement amount. Just as fascinating as the article are the many follow-up comments which take on some of the facts as presented by Lewis that nonetheless shows that the roster payroll is nothing compared the overall situation.
Let me know what you think.
Joe
http://www.amazinavenue.com/2011/12/11/2627933/an-in-depth-look-at-the-mets-finances
Hi Joe,
What do I think? I think my head is swimming. LOL I remember the article when it came out prior to the Piccard settlement. I had not read the accounting comments though. Thank you for pointing them out. I simply don’t have the chops to evaluate this.
My layman’s opservation. Baseball would not have given a 25 million dollar loan, had the Met’s not been in a dire cash flow crunch.
Einhorn, who grew up a neighbor of Bud Selig, may have been a diversion to allieve the fears of current and potential Creditors.
The value of SNY is a matter of great interest. That SNY was able to to buy a few of those 20 million dollar minor ownership stakes in the Mets shows that SNY has and can get serious money. The Sterling Mets LLC was undercapitalized much like the Banks. This was a result of reduced revenue due to a poor product on the field, and an economic downturn.
The divergent financial structure of Sterling Mets, Queens Stadium, SNY and the Wilpon Family itself make for a bit of a shell igame. I am reminded of the addage “Figures don’t lie…”
As to the stadium, this leaves me feeling that the Mets may have not have done so well as they hoped to. Does any Owner lose money on a stadium? Especially when the Owner oversees the construction of it?
This would be a great article to follow up. Paticularly with the help of some of the commenters.
Thanks again Joe.
Jersey,
My pleasure. I sent along to my Met fans and still have who is not disputing the financial problems disclosed in that article but still insists the Mets have adopted a new philosophy under Sandy.
My point to him was that the Mets just lucked into at the moment because the Madoff mess and real-estate market bombing out gave them no other choice. I agreed 100 percent that had the situation been different, many of the kids would not have been given the opportunity to play as they are now because the front office would have continued looking for a few quality free agents to fill the spot. However, I also pointed out that Sandy was here for a specific reason and after the finanicial house is somewhat in order, the Wilpons are going to revert back to the way they ran the team starting in 2005 – go after more free agents to build the team up quickly where necessary so it can be both competitive and not second cousin to the Yankees.
Why is John Ricco still around anyway?
To Help make sure Jeffie doesn’t screw the pooch!
Maybe because he and Podesta can be paid less than others in those positions?