8
2012
MMO Fan Shot: Can We All Just Get Off Ike Davis’ Back Already?
An article by 
It is pretty clear that everyone believes Ike Davis’ bat is hurting this team.
Admittedly the last guy you want to see come up to the plate with men on base in an important situation is Ike Davis. And no one can deny this is true.
Many are supporting sending him down to the Minors because he is holding this team back…
Which begs the question…Holding this team back from what?
Has he held us back from contending for the Playoffs? Well….No. We are still well in the thick of things
Has he held us back from catching the Washington Nationals? Well considering we were tied with them for 1st place as recently as Two Days ago you have to say ….No.
Has his lack of hitting cost us games? Well I’m SURE it has, but truth is not anymore than our Bullpen has so far. And even if you ignore those blown games from the pen what exactly SHOULD our record be if Ike wasn’t costing this team some wins?
41-14?
We are currently 5 games over .500, The Nats are 10 Games over .500 and the best team in the MLB (Dodgers) is 15 Games over .500. Is Ike’s lack of hitting the difference between us?
I know Ike has won a few for us as well in those rare times he does get a hit and despite his average he is only 2 HRs and 12 RBI behind Wright at the moment.
Has Ike really cost us 10 games? Maybe…But that’s almost half our losses and if you think Ike is responsible for half our losses than either you haven’t been watching too carefully or you think WAY too much of Ike’s hitting and ability to make up all those runs given up by our Pen.
So in the end at most what has Ike’s bad bat cost this team? The DOMINATION of the MLB?
Now sure we all would love to have that feather to stick in our Met caps but is not having it reason to complain about it?
Despite Ike’s hitting woes, this team wins games when it pitches well and doesn’t win games when when the pitching fails.
Yes, having Ike hit like he should would make up for some of that and maybe even make us the dominating team the 86ers were.
But he is not costing this team much if anything by struggling.
We are in the Playoff hunt
We are in the Division Race
We are winning games DESPITE having to carry Ike’s poor bat.
So let’s start talking about HOW to fix him instead of WHERE to fix him. The only thing Ike’s slump is preventing, is to have a much more dominating season that anything anyone of us ever predicted predicted or expected. Let him work it out.
Unless you truly believe Ike is a bust or costing this team a playoff run, I suggest we stop worrying about where he sorts himself out and worry more about him doing so. We have carried him this far and we are still playing inspired and winning baseball.
Just leave the guy alone because the more we bring it up the more pressure he is going to put on himself to the point where he DOES start costing us a playoff race and shot at the division. We haven’t given up on the Pen after two months and they DIDN’T miss a year of baseball…
No reason to give up on Ike considering he did miss that year!
Takes time to get that swing back.
This Fan Shot was submitted by MMO reader, Mike O’Leary (Metsie). Have something you want to say about the Mets? Share your opinions with over ten-thousand Mets fans who read this site daily. Send your Fan Shot to GetMetsmerized@aol.com. Or ask about being a regular contributor, and share your opinions with an engaging community that loves to debate.
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Sorry, I appreciate the post and I am ROOTING for Ike but this is the major leagues. You don’t just let a guy be an automatic out because the team is covering for you. His role is far too important to just say “leave him alone.”
Baseball is 162 games, and your flaws tend to hurt you as you go deeper into the season. Ike does not belong on a big league roster right now. Johan Santana looks like he has more of a clue at the plate than Davis!
You cannot have an automatic out at 1B. I’m sorry but you just cannot. The Miami Marlins sent their own 1B down who was an ALL STAR because he was an automatic out. They are just as good if not better than the Mets, so why didn’t they just say “eh we’re doing okay with him being terrible.”
Because that’s not how baseball works. He’s a young player who in the grand scheme of things has little MLB experience. He doesn’t deserve a roster spot over other players who actually are performing.
Say what you will about Jason Bay but I’ll take Jason Bay 10 times over the 2012 Ike Davis right now.
Jessup no one is denying Ike’s problems and their affect…
The Question posed….
“Which begs the question…Holding this team back from what?”
How many wins do you think this team should have now?
3 more? 4 More?
Someone suggested only 2 more!
Is that really all? And if it is then why have we not sent that bullpen down yet as well?
I don’t care WHERE they fix Ike not important I only care that they do!
And I didn’t mention it because it was already a bit long but I remember sitting in the stands back in 86 where we carried the awful hitting Rafael Santana for no other reason than his glove!
Sure Ike needs to be fixed no one is saying he’s fine by any stretch of the imagination.
But unless you think this team should have 41 wins right now and do not because of Ike…
What he has cost is is no more or no less than what others have cost us!
I was hoping it would click in the mind of the readers that Feast or Famine is a pretty foolish way to weight events.
Starting the season we had predictions of not competing at all some even suggesting 100 losses…
Now we have people complaining that Ike is holding us back from being the best team in baseball!
Yes he’s a problem but when I look at the standings and record it does not appear to be a MAJOR problem for this team!
No more than other issues!
When we pitch we win and when don’t we lose!
Could Ike turn some of those bad pitching efforts around?
I’ll be happy to talk about WHAT needs to be done to fix Ike…
Where it actually happens I don’t really care because it does not appear to matter to the record of this team in any significant way!
What I do know is if he fixes it here we can all be SURE it is fixed where if he fixes it elsewhere we will still have to wait a month to know if we succeeded!
I agree with the first poster. There is obviously something wrong with Davis. You don’t go from what he was to what he is now without some flaw be it mechanics or something mental. His confidence is probably completely shot by now. My point here is that the minors is the place to fix that kind of stuff. Yes, give him a chance to straighten out in the majors, but we are well past that. It’s time to start thinking about what is best for both him and the Mets. He needs some intense coaching, film study, and head clearing to get himself right. You cannot do that in the majors with games practically everyday. There is a talented hitter in there. Both sides are acting like it’s some kind of disgrace to be sent down for hitting 160. Duh? The Mets are doing themselves and Ike a disservice by now sending him down so that he can clean up his act and clear his head.
Another great post! Well said!
Thankyou
Yet another writer with no clue. Ike has the lowest batting average of all MLB players. It is not simply that he is over matched, but that he is not getting better at bats.
Can you truly argue that if Ike was batting like the middle of the order bat we were expecting that the Mets record wouldn’t be better by a couple of games?
That is like saying that if the Mets had a good BP we wouldn’t be in first place right now.
Ike has been more of a failure this year than Bay yet he is still around because the Mets organization is playing favorites as usual or simply have no clue just like you.
This team right now is better off playing Murphy at 1B, Hairston at 2B or simply playing Rottino at 1B until Turner comes back. Once Baxter comes back, he should play 1B.
Stop living in denial. Right now, Ike is not a ML caliber player and doesn’t deserve to be. Only in an organization like the Mets is this allowed to continue.
I could not agree more, Joe! Nice post!
We need to STOP enabling Ike here and do what truly is not only good for the TEAM but good for IKE as well. Where is accountability for performance?? Send Ike’s struggling bat down to work it out. Why are we defending keeping him here? Why? We not only like Ike but we LOVE him. So let’s do the right thing here. No MLB team should have its first baseman hitting .160. Seriously? He’s needing to work things out offline–away from the club. What will give him a better chance at success? Struggling and trying to work things out on the big stage or a taking a timeout where the pressures should be less and his hunger and focus to improve enhanced? It’s only a setback; no one is suggesting he be off the team forever. At the same time, his selfishness is disconcerting. He ought to be asking to be sent down. TC’s confidence is not being repaid and a change of tact is needed. It also sends a message to the others. It’s time the tail stop wagging the dog. TC and Sandy need to step up.
FS, first we are six games above .500.
Second, your essay simply doesn’t ask the right questions. It’s precisely because we have a black hole in the middle of the lineup tht we are scoring so few runs. Recall all of the columns and posts about how “lucky” the Mets are to have a winning record despite the losing run differential. I think that were Ike to have normal numbers, there’s no way that we wouldn’t have won three-four more games, and right now that would mean the Mets would be doube digits above wins to losses. It would also mean first place. Thus despite the BP sucking royally, we would be atop the heap in the NL East. That, fellow MMO enthusuiast, is how MLB’s worst hitter is holding us back.
RZ: To be fair, he likely wrote this before yesterday’s game. Fan Post’s do not go up right away.
It’s not only that Ike’s numbers are horrendous, but that he looks incredibly lost up at the plate. He’s down 0-2 1-2 in seemingly every at bat. That’s not hard luck. That’s having to take a step back and recalibrate the engine.
. He’s down 0-2 1-2 in seemingly every at bat. That’s not hard luck. That’s having to take a step back and recalibrate the engine”
Isn’t that the physolophy of this front office? patience at the plate? pitchers are throwing strikes to us right down the middle and we see it pass like nothing, guys like murphy and ike have suffered the most because them 2 are aggressive hitters who needed no tweeking… But of course, OBP is what matters, speed (last in majors) don’t matter according to this Front office and Power (amongst the worst HR hitting team) is overrated.. coincidence? yeah, think not
Help me out here, Alex, what on earth would patience at the plate have to do with a hitter who is completely lost at home plate? He has no idea what’s coming, and when he decides to swing, he flails at balls miserably and way out of the strike zone.
It’s a general maxim in MLB that to be a successful hitter, you come up to the plate both with a plan and with a sharp ability to determine what will be thrown to you by any given pitcher. And then, um, you have to execute. Davis appears highly deficient on all three levels.
I think that your attempt to run down the philosophy of the hitting coach and Ike Davis’ failures have zero to do with each other.
BTW, I would like to see concrete evidence that either Hudgens or the FO have instructed hitters to take balls right down the pipe, e.g. “All players must take first strike FBs.”
Russell, my point is, how do we know that’s the case? we have heard, keith, ojeda and darling say many times how these mets hitters are wasting away pitchers because of the new phylosophy, i am sure they know more than me and you, they see this team, are part of the team etc, is it coincidence that we as a team have the most K, the most BB, a high OBP, a lot of runs scored but are like 16th in the NL in RBI, amongst the worst in HR and slug %, and also the most hits with 2 outs? why you think that is> because pretty much they all gotta get to 2 strikes before swinging, it’s plain and simple, get to 2 strikes then wait for your pitch, you either strike out, walk or have an out or hit…
Of course, Alex, I’ve heard the arguments from announcers and others. We all watch the games. I think the idea of taking until one has two strikes is not promoted by any Mets coaches or management. Personally, I believe in working counts deep. It achieves two incredibly important things for a team’s offense: 1) the more pitches you see, the greater chance you get hits–basic rule of thumb. The exception would be if a team collectively is constantly behind in counts. 2) You wear out SPs sooner as their counts mount.
As far as I know, but please correct me if I’m wrong, the Mets may not produce sufficient RBIs right now (and we almost never hit for power as a team–few exceptions over 50 years), but they do have one of the best team BAs in NL, correct? This is a true testament to “patience-at the-pate” philosophy.
There are many ways to describe the philosophy of “Patience at the Plate”
How you convey it is almost as important to it’s success as the philosophy itself!
WAIT for your Pitch to Hit….
vs
LOOK for your Pitch to hit!
the verb WAIT assumes your pitch isn’t coming early and you must wait for it!
the verb LOOK tells the player it could come at any time and you must be ready to smack it when it comes!
WAIT suggests passivity, LOOK suggests Aggressive action.
Both suggestions can have the same result provided the Batter does what he is told and swings at pitches to hit and passes on balls that are not strikes.
But one is waiting while the other is looking!
If your looking for it then you will expect it on ANY pitch, If your WAITING as your first option by the time you realize it IS your pitch to hit it has gone by you…Called strike!
If your looking for something you tend to find it!
If your waiting for something to happen chances are it will happen before you realize it has!
By telling players to look instead of wait they are prepared to hit their pitch at anytime!
By telling him to wait they are not prepared for anything they are just waiting, and as a result waste good pitches to hit they may never get back!
Teaching plate dicipline should not be teaching WAITING it should be teaching BE PREPARED!
Not just the last 4 Pitches of an AB but ALL of them!
Hudgens never tells them to take pitches or to wait. He tells them to be hunters and hunt their pitch. That’s a big difference. He never wants them to take a pitch they can drive.
Ok you tell us what you tell someone your trying to teach Plate Discipline without using the word WAIT which you guys have used for two months now when this passive batting forst came up!
Tell us all the lesson without the word WAIT being used…Lets see if you can do it!
Then I’ll show you some quotes where Huidgens has used the word WAIT in the manner I suggested!
Not recently however as it would appear they are not AS PASSIVE as they were earlier in the year!
Most notably Duda and Wright!
We have quotes that I have already provided from the players and from Hudgens himself about being aggressive in the zone and hunting your pitch. Not starting this one again. Either way this philosophy appears to be working because we are 4th in R/G and we are doing it at times with a lineup full of scrubs and David Wright.
And there are quotes to the contrary as well….
http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/teaching-on-base-skills/
“During instructional league action last year, hitters were forced to take a strike before they swung.”
Why? What if that strike is THIER PITCH to hit?
What you propose as Plater discipline is fine but it’s all useless unless the most important part of being a good hitter is also drilled into them!
What to do and swing at with 2 Strikes on them!
Your cited method might work up until that point and does not work at all AFTER it!
What this team needs to learn (and what skews the pitches seen counts in both Tejada and Murphy is the fact that once they get two strikes on them they will fight the pitcher until he makes a mistake they can crush or fails so badly they walk!
But waiting for your pitch and taking the first strike seem to be at odds with each other!
If the goal is to swing at strikes not at balls or wait for your pitch you damn well better be prepared to swing at the first strike because it might just be your pitch and you may never get another one!
Why are they teaching them to take the first pitch in the minors? Because it is about developing as a hitter. The minors is more about development than about wins and losses or even runs scored.
Why don’t they make them do that at the MLB level? Because players should be more mature and the games are more about winning than development.
It’s like how a few starts ago they had Harvey working on his change up and throwing it way more than he would in a real game. Does that mean they want him to throw his change up ahead and behind in the counts every single time? Nope they want him to develop that pitch more so he can throw it in either situation when needed. Same philosophy with taking the first pitch.
But youdeveloping plate discipline is not about NOT SWINGING about a half an hour ago!
Yet to develop it what do they teach?
DON’T SWING at STRIKE ONE!
Is that teaching them to swing at strikes or just teaching them they can only swing at strike two and if you miss it your screwed and MY philosophy must take over from then on out?
Is throwing a good change up about throwing it more than you ever would in a game?
You have a point there or are you emporary insanity!
Does developing a changeup mean practicing NOT throwing it for a strike at any point in time?
Sure I do. They make them take the first pitch to get them used to seeing the pitches, release points, speed, etc… You make a guy throw the change up a bunch to get him used to being able to throw it in any count when it needs it. The first pitch of the count is the only one you can dictate the situation. You can’t have him take say the 3rd pitch.
And what if that pitch happens to be THIER PITCH?
Are you really teaching them to hit THIER PITCH as you claim or are you teaching them to only hit the second one if it ever comes around again?
Your LESSONS are in CONFLICT with each other aren’t they?
If that first pitch is THEIR pitch then you failed to achieve the goal you were trying to teach them didn’t you…
Because that could be the only “THIER PITCH” they get that AB!
LOL, they are not in conflict at all. There is more to teaching plate discipline than the actual byproduct itself just as their is more to pitching than just the byproduct itself.
Again, I don’t mean to use Bay’s line here but once you coach you understand the importance of breaking down each part.
For example you want to teach a player to get good looks and a young player you may have them only take a lay up for their first shot. Does that mean that a lay up is the only good shot and that once they develop as a player you don’t want them to be able to shoot that three early in the game if it is a good look? Nope. Still doesn’t change what you are teaching.
And if “YOUR PITCH” only comes on the first strike what then? WALK?
Swing at things that are NOT “YOUR PITCH”
Tell me how that works since you seem to think you know a thing about coaching this discipline….
Are you teaching them to hit “THEIR PITCH” or are you teaching them how to swing only at strike 2 and 3?
Seems to me the taking of ANY strike is counterproductive both to the concept of getting and swinging at “YOUR PITCH” and the notion that you should swing at strikes and take balls you guys also tout.
So you think the idea is to swing at your pitch but only if it’s strike one or two? Or 3 and 0?
Is this the great philosophy you keep talking about?
Sorry should read Strike 2 and 3 not one and two…
Again you obviously don’t understand the concept of breaking down the part to teach the whole. Lets move on.
I guess you son’t understand the concept of conflicting orders…
Wait for your pitch but dson’t hit it unless it comes twice!
Swing at strikes but take one!
Here is one example of the Plate Discipline hitting drill…(I’m sure there are more….)
http://www.qcbaseball.com/drills/hitting_discipline_tee.aspx
Note the one thing that is key to ANY approach (Patient or not) that must be taught for success….
Practice 3!
“Now complete this series by having the player work on hitting pitches that they may not be strikes, but are too close to take with 2 strike count. Emphasize taking a short quick swing and putting the bat on the ball.
This drill can also help players evaluate their plate coverage and determine the proper distance from the plate.”
WHich if you do #3 and teach them that it really doesn’t matter what they do at the beginning of the AB Passive Aggressive really doesn’t matter, if you can fight off a pitcher with 2 Strikes on you you will succeed but if you fail that it really doesn’t matter what happened before that does it?
Oh and for the record you reall have no clue what Hudgens has been saying to them…Not a clue…
All I know is what he said last year about his approach and whats different from the OBP centric philosophy!
” is it coincidence that we as a team have the most K, the most BB, a high OBP, a lot of runs scored but are like 16th in the NL in RBI, amongst the worst in HR and slug %, and also the most hits with 2 outs?”
Alex how can they have a “lot” of runs but be 16th in RBI? LOL. Are we walking home that much?
We are 4th in RS and 4th in RBI with Davis being a dud so far and our 5th string SS even hitting well. Lets lay off the offense.
Correct.
255 Runs, 4th in NL
498 Hits, 6th in NL
243 RBI, T-4th in NL
.257 AVG, 8th in NL
.332 OBP, 3rd in NL
.392 SLG, 9th in NL
Considering the Mets offense has an automatic out at 1B, played with backup catchers for 2 weeks, had 3-4 different starting SS’s I’d say these numbers are pretty respectable.
Yeah, if I read the ESPN team batting chart correctly looks as if we are 9th overall in MLB hitting.
We are close to MLB leadersh in Ks. Geez, how many of those are Ike’s?
Aha, Ike has 57Ks, which means he is single-handedly responsible for +25% of all Mets Ks. Kind skews the overall figure, eh?
12%. Ike Davis contributes to 12% of the Mets K totals.
Kirk has more (by 3) but he’s a 1st year player and at least shows an ability to put the bat on the ball.
Ha! My bad, was basing on the BB column. LOL. Good catch.
How quickly we forgot that had not being for david wright ike davis would’ve been an all star for the mets last year, or at least be consider to be… SMH.. Jason bay.. People in this blog are getting more stupid by the day
I agree, there was even one who said the Mets were 16th in RBI but scoring a lot of runs.
What is wrong with people?
Yeap, its contagious, specially when people who own their own blogs spend all day here while still managing to criticize the blog and the people in it…
Hey I post here. I guess I am in it. Are you a registered member of mine? Does that mean you are in it? Any time you get to a point you can’t figure out where to go you go back to the well and bring my blog in.
Again, I can’t help the fact that you are running around and calling posters idiots and then making a comment saying they are scoring a bunch of runs but are 16th in RBI. Please tell us Alex how that is possible? Obviously it isn’t factual but tell us how that is possible?
Also, we are 2nd in doubles.
Worth noting also is that we are still affected by Citi.
Road: .266 .339 .400 .739 4.77 R/G
Home: 249 .325 .385 .710 4.06 R/G
Hey I thought RBI was a team stat? When did that flip?
Since so many are convinced that OBP drives RS then why are the RBI down? Certainly not all Ike’s fault.
The RBI are not down. Obviously the team’s RS and RBI will be very similar. That’s common sense and no one ever argued that point. What we did say was that OBP and runs scored are linked with each other most of the time.
We are 7th in OBP and 9th in RS/RBI…
Explain why two teams with lesser OBP have more RS RBI?
Exceptions to the rule due to their power, stadiums or pitchers faced. Again, it’s not going to be exact but in general not making outs in baseball is a good thing.
NO NO NO ..
it’s all about OBP…When I suggested Power and RBI I was told no they are not relevant!
OBP FAILS without those other things…You seem to agree with that…Others have not!
Nope, a high OBP can make up for the lack of power. If you notice the Dodgers, Mets, and Indians all have less than 50 HR but are in the top rankings in OBP and runs scored. The ones that are in the top 10 in R/G but not in OBP are Toronto, Whitesox and the Braves. The Jays and Wsox are near or at the top in HR. The only exception is the Braves.
The Braves are 11th in OBP, 6th in runs and 11th in HR.
“a high OBP can make up for the lack of power”
has it?
Isn’t your whole argument regarding Ike about that lack of power costing us despite our High OBP?
Ike was never a high average hitter he was just a power hitter!
He hit 264 his first year and got after a hot month where he hit .3002…
Even the most optimistic person on Davis would not expect more than a .270-.280 hitter with HRs being the thing that makes that worth dealing with!
For Ike his power has to make up for his OBP and isn’t. His OBP last year was .383 and .351 his first year. It’s .237 this year. It isn’t about his lack of power it’s about his lack of everything. Average, OBP, SLG, …
You seem to sidestep the issue here…The only hits Ike is getting are power hits!
At least with runners on!
Are you suggesting that he should have more HRs and then his BA and OBP wouldn’t matter?
Nope but with his power if his BA was higher and his OBP were higher then he would make less outs…. and thus in turn drive in more runs with RISP and not kill rallies with RISP.
Yeah and if every hit he had was a HR you wouldn’t care about his BA or OBP would you?
And if he was hitting .360 with a .400 OBP I wouldn’t care if he had 0 HR.
LOL yeah lots of scenarios that would change your mind about Ike and complaining, but the odd thing here is..If Sandy had signed him as a free agent this year you would so totally be on the other side of this coin especially if Me Vinny, Maniac or Bayonne had taken your current position….
Seems YOU are the one (and some of your friends) who give slack and feed out credit based on who signed who not the other way around as you and some of your friends have suggested!
Again, right back to the Sandy crap. That is your fall back isn’t it? I don’t care who signed a player. It has nothing to do with Sandy, why don’t you ever understand that?
Not my fallback plan at all…
Just the only thing I seem to see in common and different in your timelines and parameters for patient not patient.
Torres, Ramirez, Rauch, Francisco all get the benfit of small sample size to dismiss…
Acosta, Ike Davis, Nope more than enoough time to judge…
Seems like the GM has a distinct influence on how much you will take…
Who brought back Acosta? Sandy or Omar? Also, with Bay returning bench Torres’ butt unless you are moving Duda. It has nothing to do with Sandy.
When did Acosta ever leave pray tell?
Your just posting nonsense because you know I have a point and it bothers the hell out of you!
I showed your hypocritical timelines based on GM acqusition and you hate when someone shows you where all of your biases in every position you have lay!
So Sandy had no choice but to put Acosta in the pen? Again, it’s never been about Sandy with me and this issue with Ike Davis has nothing to do with Sandy. You are just caught in your own argument and are trying to turn it into something else so you can run around and say “YOU LOSE”. LOL.
Did hehave a choice putting Kirk in the OF?
Is this where you intend to go and do to start giving Sandy credit for all of Omars guys?
ROFLMAO!
Nope it’s because as I said the other day, there is no more Omar or Sandy’s players. Sandy is the GM and they are all his players so if he wants Ike up then Ike stays. If we wants Acosta he gets Acosta.
Yep just as I suspected..They are ALL sandy’s players now so he should get credit for anything they do regardless if he brought him here or not!
How gracious and convenient for you?
Murphy is just as aggressive as he ever was, based on the actual stats (swinging at first pitch, stuff like that). Doesn’t mean that he always does, just that he has not adopted some always take the 1st pitch rule.
some guys though tend to do that. And did it long before Hudgens came along. It is pretty much just their approach.
and again, the philosphy is not to take until 2 strikes every AB (that was the Castillo plan, and it sucks). It simply is to “hunt your pitch” and drive it. And that is fine being the 1st pitch.
so, if a particular guy is not swinging at a fat 1st pitch, it is on them, not the “philosophy”
also, by not hacking at everything you can see early in the count, you actually force the pitcher to come in early, otherwise they will end up being 2-0 all the time. So for the appoach to be successful, you need to be prepared to rip pitch 1 when it is a good one to hit.
Ike is lost, and Murphy seems to be trying too hard to be a #2 hitter (all contact). That is not on Hudgens.
Wright is having a huge year, and Duda is now at a 30/100 pace, and has cut his Ab per HR way down from last year. so they don’t seem to have been hurt.
It would be one thing if it was taking pitches. Ike gets into those counts by fouling one off then whiffing at the outside pitch EVERYONE is throw to him. I think his Martin problem is he’s become too pull happy. The one good hit he had during the Washington series was the double he hit into the left field gap. He needs to start looking the other easy for basehits then when that comes back start getting a little quicker and blast one over the right field wall.
Well, In all fairness, his defense has been good enough to keep him in there, i am shocked that no more questions about “who will we replace him with” haven’t surfaced. We have no other alternative at 1B better than him, for people that shiTT* on omar minaya for his lack of depth (due to injury) we have no depth now either, otherwise i think he would’ve been moved, so much for the FOUR 1B in the bigs playing, ike will be fine, at this point last season heyward who by some idiots in this very site was considered to be the next ken griffey wasstruggling baaaad, it happens, maybe is the new mentality of wait for your pitch that has messed up his mechanics, rememeber, beltran did not find his swing after coming back from injury after 2 months, maybe ike will snap out of it, but for now, he’s the only (better) option we got… ohh, and it’s funny how ike davis suck but makes not much money and some idiots want jason bay 10x ahead of him.. Stupidit at its best..
Good post metsie… instead of you engaging with some people here you should post more articles.
So now I’m an idiot because I’d rather have Jason Bay in the 2012 lineup over Ike Davis?
Jason Bay has NEVER been .161/.237/.278
So why would you prefer Ike over Bay in 2012?
.251/.335/.391 21HR/109 RBI 233 games Jason Bay as a Met
.248/.332/.421 31HR/117 RBI 238 Games Ike Davis career
They seem PRETTY dang similar don’t they? So how come its okay to complain about Jason Bay every day, but now we have to lay off Ike? Simply because of money?
Ike Davis’ future means more to the NY Mets than Jason Bay’s contract.
Idiot, you are the ones complaining about money to back up arguments about the market mentality of the front office, now you asking me why is it ok to criticize Bay but not ike davis?? are you really this stupid? why else would we not criticize davis if not for the money? he’s homegrown, he’s replaceable easier if we had an option, jason bay has killed the mets in 3 years, ike davis has killed the mets for 2 months… even you can not possibly be this stupid…
With the exception of 10 more HRs and 12 more RBI I guess you could say they are similar!
117 (Ike RBI) minus 109 (Bay RBI) is 8, not 12.
Here I will break it down for you:
110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117
How many numbers did I list there?
If you’re going to try be “smart” and mock somebody’s point, next time use a calculator.
Yep I went from memory and messed up the RBI….
Going to talk about the HRs or was this just an attempt to sidestep that issue altogether?
Yeah I figured the HRs were something you were afraid to discuss!
I see you’re THAT stupid, just as i predicted, again, bay was not brought here to hit 10 HR’s a seaosn, or to hit 240, he was brought here to help the team win games, he’s getting paid $16+ million a year to do that, how dare you compare the 2? you are really stupid.. I knew you were, this just sealed the deal
Right, this guy saying Bay has been as good as Davis has the last few years and someone saying the Mets were scoring a bunch of runs but were 16th in RBI. What is today? Bizzaro day?
YES TRS! YOU WIN THE PRIZE!!!!!!!!!!!
I managed to get all of you who a week ago were complaining about all the negativity regarding the players on this team not performing and calling those posters as BAD FANS to be despised into what you hate the most!
NEGATIVE FANS who refuse to accentuate the positive showing just how hypocritical all your “YOUR NOT A FAN” bullshit really is!
You got it!
Who is being negative? None of us are saying to take Ike out back and have him quartered and shot.
Your being negative about Ike when two weeks ago you were complaining about people being negative about the pen!
Did I say to release Ike Davis? Did I say he will never get better and it was a horrible decision to have him as the starting 1B and that Omar/Sandy failed for having him there? Nope. I think it’s just clear that he is stinking up the joint.
Again, what does Ike have to do with the pen in general? You can’t compare one player to a group. Otherwise all I have to say is Acosta was sent down so Ike should be too. They aren’t the same situation. I don’t know exactly what they should do with Ike. Most likely neither do the Mets. But to pretend he isn’t individually costing us games by hitting .150 and having the most PA with RISP on the team seems foolish.
No…Did I say that about the Pen when it was their turn in the fire?
Again your seemingly just running around with a chicken with it’s head off and not debating a thing here…
You have a point about the games Ike has cost us then make it…
If not just be quiet and avoid making this a 200 comment thread you get on me for when it happens!
That goes both ways Metsie. Just like how you have attempted to turn this into another Sandy vs Omar debate. Is that so you can brag about how many comments your post got?
I turned this there because I know how much you hate it and since you have made 10 consecutive posts that say and add pretty much NOTHING to the discussion of Ike Davis I was hoping to bore the hell out of you and get you to shut up!
You have a point about how much Ike has cost this team with examples cited make it!
You want to ask me for the 5th time if I did that for the PEN then your just wasting my and everyone else’s time!
You are right you already answered that you did not do what I ask and you are also right that it is wasting time comparing one player to a group of players.
I am glad we agree.
But I did show all the games the Pen blew which is where this all started now didn’t I?
You want a specific format then knock yourself out!
BTW take a look at the worst pen in the league and tell me what you think?
Again so the answer was no.
Thanks for taking all this time to admit the answer was no.
Also, why not provide your readers with a link to view all of this research you did. I mean obviously if you did it would prove me wrong. Let them take a look at what you did and be the judge.
YAWN….
Again the answer was yes I showed the games the pen blew!
Have you showed the games that Ike has blown for us and will you EVER point them out or do we argue fact formatting for another 4 hours?
I showed the games the pen blew…
Now either show the games Ike blew for us or it will be proof have no point just circle jerking me around like you and Jessup often do when you have nothing to prove what I said was wrong.
Provide the link and prove me wrong Metsie. You are always looking to prove yourself right, so do it. Give us the link.
No Your always trying to prove me wrong but when it comes time to put up or shut up you guys always make ME go show the links you never have on your own!
You said Ike cost us more games than the pen…
SHOW YOUR DATA!
First you are going to have to show me where I said Ike as an individual cost us more games than the pen as a whole.
ramirez 4 blown games…
Ike Davis ZERO but then again you haven’t found any yet!
Ok Get cracking there teacher time to start adding up the games Ike cost us!
I complied with your comparison request…Time for you to comply with mine…
You game?
Or do we just keep going here?
What are the games that Ramirez cost us the win?
A very strange post. And very long. I am very curious about the writer. What is going on with his brain? What did he eat? What happened to his life?
I have a suggestion, i do this myself, if you don’t like what the writer wrote, or the article, don’t comment on it and MOVE ON… there’s other great articles in this blog for you to be part of.
When do you do that? You go into posts you don’t like and make a comment about how much you dislike the post and the writer and will not post in it.
Alex, thanks. I knew I should not have done it, but I couldn’t help it.
Wait, I thought we someone wrote a post you didn’t like you kept bringing it back up over and over again 6-8 months later.
only if you are having a good day.
do you see my name on every article? i post in the ones i like, the ones i don’t AGREE with i let the writer know how bias they’re being or whatever, i don’t post on crappy articles, usually the ones made by jesseP.. everyone else does a good job, even sean kenny who’s as bias as they come
My bad, it wasn’t you that refers to Jessup’s articles all the time. Especially not the ones on the bullpen or the Braves.
Funny I thought I was making a positive piece here and I see all it has led to is negativity!
When Jessup does that and anyone goes negative on it they are NOT FANS and ROOT TO FAILURE….
Yet here we are!
LOL
You post is fine. It’s your opinion no one can prove you are wrong no more than you can prove you are right. Where we cross is when people start calling the others idiots randomly.
I asked you to tell everyone what you think our record SHOULD be if Ike was hitting to average…
Apparently that challenge was too much for you to handle as you refuse to even take a guess…
Nor provide any evidence or argument to back up how many games you think he cost us!
And if thats too much of a challenge for you perhaps you should not take on the other more CHALLENGING questions like how good a move a GM makes actually is!
I didn’t write the post the burden off proof isn’t on me. You are saying he hasn’t cost us games or positions. Prove it.
Your the one who wants to argue the pen AGAIN not me..
I already had that debate with you!
If you can’t remember or wish to review it feel free!
If you choose not to then it’s your problem to prove Ike has cost us more than them!
I’m asking you to talk about what Ike has cost us and so far you have refused to cite a single game!
But when the subject was the pen I DID cite the games they cost us!
And having done my part it’s time for you to do yours or just shut up trying to get me to do your legwork as if your MY teacher here!
I wonder if you would sit still if your class asked you to prove you assigned homework when they don’t have any that day?
I provided my assesment of games blown by the pen…
You want to talk about it then go find it as part of your homework regarding making a point about Ike which is the subject of this post!
“Has his lack of hitting cost us games? Well I’m SURE it has, but truth is not anymore than our Bullpen has so far”
I believe you are the one that made it about the pen.
Yep and I made that case weeks ago…now it’s up to you to show Ike has cost us more and if not just shut up and stop spamming my post!
Ball is in your court if you have a point make it!
If not then just please SHUT UP ALREADY!
He sucks, his articles are usually crap, all he does is try to stir real mets fans to get a rise out of them with his stupid as* articles, I refer to the He had a good day because that along with his urinal article have been probably the most idiotics articles i’ve seen written here, I’ll make sure he remembers. that’s all, i don’t post on his crapticles
The problem for me is essentially we should not be winning in spite of Ike Davis; we should be winning with the help of Ike Davis. And right now, that is not happening at all. I think some people are looking at this “demotion” as such a hindrance that it can’t possibly be a good thing. Truth is Ike is still a young player, and he’s still developing. You can argue strongly that his development was rushed. Before 2012, he’s been ahead of the curve in his development, but regression to the mean is a killer.
I love Ike’s defense, but honestly I think Duda or even Bay will prove adequately enough for the month Ike is in AAA. It wouldn’t be ideal, but Duda or Bay at 1B is an improvement over Ike at 1B [offense, defense, and special teams
] right now. Honestly Ike going down to fix his problems will make him hungry for the first time in a long time. I’m not saying he’s not trying hard or giving maximum effort, or doing his best. I’m just saying he’s not hungry for success.
To me sending him down forces him to not take his job for granted. I know all players say this and probably believe this…but to me it’s impossible for a young guy not to take his job for granted when he as one of the worse averages, approach, and swing sin the majors right now…and we’re still starting him everyday. AAA will make Ike hungry, and that’ll be like adding a big trade piece come July.
To me, that is a good thing.
this makes no sense. You seem to be saying that even though Ike has cost them some wins, because they are only 1.5 games out, and there are other areas that have also been a problem, there is no reason to try and fix 1B?
how about, even with all the other issues the team has had to deal with, if Ike was even playing at average ML level (hell, replacement level), then the Mets would be in 1st place by themselves?
and there are 2 big reasons to send hm down. 1st is to try and help the Mets win more (obviously first priority). But 2nd, it is to figure out if Ike can be salvaged. He clearly is a mess at bat, so if there is mechanical work needed, much better to do it in the minors.
2nd, what if they insist on keeping him up all year, and he never snaps out of it. Then what? Just assume he will magically cure himself over the winter? Or do they have to get another option for 1B? At least if he goes to the minors, you can see if it was just timing/mechanics that could be fixed.
and the real bottom line, this is supposed to be a results based business. If you can’t perform you don’t play. Unless you are say the Cubs or Padres that haven’t crack 20 wins and are pushing 20 GB already, young guys that are overmatched should be sent down to figure things out.
“if Ike was even playing at average ML level (hell, replacement level), then the Mets would be in 1st place by themselves?”
How about if the Pen was not blowing two games a week we would be 4 games up on the division lead?
Where are the cries to send them all down to the minors?
The pen is more than one person though. Little by little the pen is being changed out due to injury and performance. Acosta was the worst BP pitcher and he was sent down. Ike has been just as bad as a hitter as Acosta as a pitcher. So you can’t say why are they not sending the entire pen down. The entire pen is not pitching to the equiv. of a .150 BA.
What has he cost the Mets? Well, so far he’s got a WAR of -1.4 so about a win an a half over a replacement player. From a marginal average player maybe that’s a 2 win difference. That’s the difference between 34-24 and 36-26. the difference between first place and just outside the bubble. And that’s a big difference.
Wow 2 WHOLE wins? Our Bullpen has cost us more games than that!
every win counts. And you have to fix everything you can.
lets see, where there any recent years where 2 wins would have made a difference? Hmmm..
So I have to ask do we plan on sending the entire Bullpen with him who have cost us more than 2 games?
If not why him not them?
you are just being silly now. You can’t send down an entire pen (in fact, there are only a couple of guys you can technically send down). And not all of them deserve it.
Acosta? Cut. He was the pen equivilant to Ike. DJ, cut. ramirez on the DL
so yes, they have been addressing the Pen arms too.
and you keep missing a huge, key point (related to the Pen, and Bay). Ike has OPTIONS. they can freely send him to AAA to get straightened out, without losing him.
guys without options have to be DFA’d, and you are still on the hook for the contract. And there is a huge difference between releasing a vet with a big contract that is scuffling a bit, and sending down a 2nd year player that is comepletely lost.
No No No, cut dry cut dry. Everything is black and white.
LOL.
You are right on. You can’t send down the entire pen, besides the entire pen isn’t the issue. It’s certain players. Thinking like that is like saying we should send down the entire infield because Davis is struggling.
Why can’t you?
Just about all of them are off the team as of today with the exception of Francisco so please tell me why we couldn’t have sent them down sooner?
So you think individually everyone in this pen has been as bad as Ike has individually? OK then.
I said they hae cost us as many games….
Since you have yet to name one Ike truly has cost us I might be in error as they may have cost us more!
No? You Can’t?
Why because it’s still too early yet?
At least in Ike’s defense he has done something for this team before…
can’t say that about these Pen guys now can we?
Honestly, we are stuck in what is best for Ike and what is best for the team and that’s the only reason the Mets haven’t sent him down yet. They are in that conundrum and if there was a clear answer they would have done it by now.
Precisely, and no matter what they do it does not seem to matter.
We are still playing for the playoffs and division…
Truth is (I will admit) that I had ulterior motives for making this post…
I klnew full well it would incite a flood of negative posts about Me and Ike…
(Don’t care about me I get them all the time)
But I did want to get all those on record who two weeks ago were slamming others for being negative about some player performances as NOT FANS and bringing back up their own excuse for chastizing us for being negative when they said We are fighting for the playoffs and are above .500! WHy the gripes?
And in my close you will see I had hoped to turn the conversation into HOW to fix Ike as opposed to the rather useless discussion of WHERE to fix him!
There is no good or better place to fix Ike. It’s a coaching thing not a location thing.
No matter where they send him to work himself out it will fail if they don’t have a clue as to what is wrong and what to fix!
To me thats a much better discussion than who would make a good bandaid and which MiL town does Ike’s bus have to travel to!
The problem is how do you “fix” Ike while he is still playing games every day. If you could say send him “down” but still have him work with Hudgens when the team is at home? Maybe sending him to AA would make that easier? That way when the team is at home he can work out in front of Hugdens and then get into AA games when convenient?
well how do you plan to fix him in Buffalo when he is playing games everyday?
So far I’m the only one who has said if you send him anywhere send him to StLucie instructional….
The rest of you all think Buffalo which is no different playing situation than with us aside from facing lesser talent!
He needs personal coaching!
You can do that just about anywhere!
I just told you. You send him to AA and let him still come back to Citi and work with Hudgens when the team is at home and then back to AA for games to try it out. I don’t know if that would work but the only other option is what I THOUGHT they said they were going to do last time. Sit him a bunch and leave him on the team.
Hey maybe they can DH for him coming up and allow him to only play defense. LOL.
And how many of those games you think Ike is costing us do you win in the meantime?
Please Quantify!
How the hell do you know that? Every loss, prove that he isn’t? LOL.
Right now he stinky and he is hurting the team so they either need to figure out quickly how to fix him here or send him down.
The Burden of proof is on you since you seem to say he cost us the games.
I can cite numerous games where the Bullpen cost us the game, Valdespin cost us the first game vs Nats…Ike cost us what one DP that game?
Take all those PAs with RISP apply his expected .270 average to it and tell me how many games turn because he didn’t get that hit!
Then tell me how many games he won with his bat…I can name at least two…
LOL, a bunch. There I proved it. Same thing as you just did. The burden of proof is on you that he hasn’t cost us games.
Name them I can name all the games that pen cost…If you can’t name even a ONE then that just proves you are not making a statement of fact just an unfounded accusation!
Do it, name all the games the pen cost us. Then go back and name all the games the pen helped us.
Now break that down by individual pitchers because otherwise I get you use V-spin’s and Murphy’s errors against Ike.
I did that two weeks ago go and read it they were replies to you afterall, Is your memory that shady that you can’t remember?
Or was it merely put out of your mind because Metsie made a point you really didn’t want to accept despite proven?
So you took every pitcher in the bullpen individually and broke down every game that they personally lost for us and every game they personally had a hand in winning?
Link please?
Yes I did in a conversation with you!
Go look!
You got a search feature that works as good as mine!
So you took every pitcher in the bullpen individually and broke down every game that they personally lost for us and every game they personally had a hand in winning?
Link please?
What part of that YES s confusing you there TRS?
No I did not go by pitcher…I went by games blown by the pen!
Are you going to just keep asking the question or are you going to go look for it and do your own homework and FINALLY make a point here?
So the answer is no, you did not
” take every pitcher in the bullpen individually and broke down every game that they personally lost for us and every game they personally had a hand in winning?”
That’s what I thought.
Otherwise you have to include every game the entire infield has cost us to look at Ike. You can’t compare how much one player has cost us to how much a group has cost us.
I went by games blown…So whts your point? I should mention people who did not blow games in a post about blown games?
Ok I didn’t mention Parnell or Byrdack…No They were doing their job at the time of the post…
Should I add them to the list now too?
Both have since blown games for us haven’t they?
Got a point then make it!
If you want something specific….MAKE IT!
But I’m not your student who you can send off to do homework!
I did mine and now it’s time to do yours and if come back to class with empty hands and an excuse about dogs I will FAIL YOU on this point you have yet to make!
Some splits for you to consider…
With runners on 1st and 3rd he is hitting .333
With Runners on 2nd and 3rd he is hitting .250
Runner on 3rd 2 Out hitting .250
Runner on 1st 2 out hitting .243
Runner on 2nd .214
Where is Ike failing the most?
Bases Loaded .000
No Men On .145
Runner on 1st (usually walked to get to ike I bet) .154
Runner on 3rd 2 Out .158
2 HRs with RISP
3 HRs with Men On
1 HR with man on 1st
1 HR with 1st and 2nd
1 HR with 1st and 3rd
1 HR man on 1st 2 Out
1 HR man on 3rd 2 Out
But the most telling split of all?
Home .102 BA .125 SLG 9H 2D 0HR
Away .217 BA .424 SLG 20H 4D 5HR
DESPITE bringing the fences in!
RISP .183 77 PA
Men on .175 94 PA
1st .154 27 PA
2nd .214 17 PA
3rd .000 6 PA
1st&2nd .136 24 PA
1st-3rd .333 15 PA
2nd-3rd .250 9 PA
123 .000 6 PA
Yep thats what I posted…And your point is?
Or are you just doing parrot practice for the school play a remake of pirates of the carribean?
Note how when there is no room to walk Ike he hits better and sees better pitches…
With the exception of bases loaded where they bear down on him and strike him out.
Also note that he hits better away from Citifield and most of his HRs are hit away…
What does that tell you other than just repeating what I just said?\
Cause if you want to agree with me just do it instead of copying and pasting what I just posted!
Because plate appearances in such a small sample size are important.
SMALL SAPLE size is important only when it suits you apparently…
When it was the Pen’s small sample size the sample made the performance ingnorable!
Considering that post makes no sense. I will attempt this.
Ike’s splits are not different enough to warrant saying anything but the fact that he has stunk regardless of the situation. An extra hit in a situation with only 8 PA makes him go from .125 to .250.
Home .102 BA .125 SLG 9H 2D 0HR
Away .217 BA .424 SLG 20H 4D 5HR
No don’t see a difference there?
Have you been touching yourself a little too much lately?
how was your question?
I think you answered it. Break him down and rebuild with intensive personal instruction.
and that is something that doesn’t get done at the ML level. And quite often, leads to a temporary decrease in production (though in this case, it is almost impossible.)
so there is your answer to how, which also explains the reason for where.
Stick Personal instruction can happen at ANY level!
Thats the point!
No, the point is teams don’t try and rebuild a 2nd year guy that is totally messed up in the majors while starting. that is what the minors is for. See, Sanchez, Gabby.
Guess it’s ok for 3 and 4 year players like Ramirez, Rauch and Francisco though right?
For one, individually their stats aren’t as bad compared to the hitting version of Ike. For two, you couldn’t send Rauch or FFF down to fix them unless they have options. I am not sure if Ramirez has them or not.
Oh please a ERA above 4.50 is way worse for a pitcher than a batter hitting below mendoza!
Thats giving up a run every other inning!
A good Hitter only hits 1 time in every 3 ABs.
So a .161 Hitter is actually only faliing less than half the time of what is expected compared to a Pitcher who gives up a run in half his innings!
They are equal if you ask me…Both are failing 50% of the time more than they should!
Are you seriously saying that a .150 BA for a 1B/hitter is the same as a 4.50 ERA for a pitcher?
Ike has the 2nd worst BA in the majors and worst OBP in the majors. League average is .252 BA. The pitcher equivalent for that is Manny Acosta at 11.86 or Esmil Rodgers at 7.20. League average is around 3.59.
Hmmm who has the worst Bullpen ERA in the Majors?
I wonder…..
http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp?c_id=mlb#playerType=QUALIFIER§ionType=st&statType=pitching&page_type=SortablePlayer&season=2012&season_type=ANY&sportCode='mlb'&league_code='MLB'&split=rp&team_id=&active_sw=&game_type='R'&position=&sortOrder='asc'&sortColumn=era&results=&page=1&perPage=50&timeframe=&extended=0&last_x_days=&ts=1339183102758&tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Team+pitching
Way to change the discussion there Metsie. I never said the bullpen was great or that it was performing well. I am saying over and over that you can’t compare how much a group of players have cost a team to how much a single player has cost a team. Otherwise I would have to include the entire infield in the Ike discussion.
What change you note worsthitte rin baseball and I cited the worst pen in baseball…
Since they are both the worst in baseball why does the pen get time and Ike not?
Again stop comparing the individual to a group that doesn’t work. Talk about specific players and maybe this comparison will work, of course even then you are comparing pitchers to hitters and pitchers with options or no options to a hitter with options.
Works for me…But I’ll be a champ and give you one comparison…
Ramirez 4games blown….
Since you have yet to come up with a single game yet that Ike has cost us Ike wins that comparison 0-4!
So whats it going to be?
You going to start naming games (Like I did) that Ike cost us or keep on with this childish banter about how I showed my data showing the pen DID blow games and cited examples?
I know the only reason why we are on this formatting kick here is because you FOUND the post I mentioned after you tried time and again to insist I never did!
What are the 4 games that we lost due to Ramirez?
Ike 5 games lost so Ike 5 Ramirez 4. Hilarious.
Apr 15th
Apr 17th
May 13th
May 18th
Now please post the corresponding dates for Ike Davis!
The reply to your attempt is below.
You are delusional. Major league players are there for
Only one reason: to help win games. Ike is not doing that. If he hit .250 we may have 5 more wins. Perios
WE CAN’T HAVE 1/3 OF THE LINEUP HITTING UNDER .200. Bay is going to play because of contract at this point. You put them back to back and you might as well give up inning. You have to separate them for now. I keep saying to put Ike hitting 2nd for a few games to see some fastballs infront of Wright instead of sinking him to 7th and seeing junk all day. He has to stop going for the junk and hit the fastball. That being said, I WOULD send him down for a week or two and see if he corrects himself in minors.
I don’t buy the FB theory hitting 2nd. They know Ike can be had on breaking balls, so that is what he is going to get.
the only way he might see FBs if if there was a speed guy on in front of him (a SB threat) and since the lead off guys are not big base stealers, that probably isn’t happening anyway.
I just can’t support giving the worst hitter on the team the 2nd most ABs.
He is down to 7th, and if he moves it should be to 8th!
I suspect the set part will be 2-5 of murphy/wright/duda/bay (though Bay still needs to be platooned, but what the heck, Kirk can hit there too).
then Ike goes 7th.
6th will depend on who is in the lineup. Probably Hairston or Thole.
just assume Bay plays every day, and Kirk/Torres platoon (and I just threw up a little even thinking that).
you could do:
vs. LHP
torres/murphy/wright/duda/bay/thole/ike/quantonimo bay (Omar)
vs. RHP:
Kirk/murphy/wright/duda/bay/ike/thole/Omar.
though I would love to see hairston in vs. LHP but unless he plays CF, not sure you can get it done.
I respect your thoughts on this, Stick. Amazing we did not call each other names
.
Since I was not clear I will clarify…
I don’t care WHERE they fix Ike…Doesn’t matter to me because I don’t see advantage of one place to the other…
But you guys act like this is supposed to be a 41 and something team! No other team in the MLB has that type of record! And you seem to blame Ike for that not happening!
In another thread it was said that the Bullpen have only had two months and we should wait before passing judgement…Why them and not Ike? I ask the question but truth is I don’t really care what the reason is…
The point of this post was to get you to discuss exactly what you think this team should be doing and if Ike is really the one to blame for them not doing it!
I dare anyone who think Ike is killing this team to cite how many wins this team SHOULD have if he wasn’t here?
Because then I will ask the question…
Where the hell were you in December?
Right so we shouldn’t be blaming the pen either for our losses.
Got it.
Why express yourself like a pinhead?
First, the BP is a collection of players; Ike D. is one. BP ups and downs are common and notorious from team to team and from season to season. No one has defended the shitty BP. I said, two months may not be the sum total. Logically, we have done with the BP exactly what we are all clamoring for with Davis: failures get sent down or DFA’ed. Have you seen Carrasco lately or Acosta?
If Davis had a semblance of a normal season, he’d have 9 or 10 dingers about 35 RBIs, and be hitting kind of like Duda. That easily would translate into no less than 3-4 wins considering how we’ve lost games and the situations when Ike needed to come up big and hasn’t.
Would be a big difference in Mets’ performance till this point.
That is a great point. Last time I looked Davis lead the team by a wide margin in PA with RISP.
I just looked. Luckily now that they moved Ike down it has evened up a little. He still leads the team but is tied with Duda. Seriously though how much better would the team have been if the guy with 77 PA with RISP could even hit .250 there instead of .160. That’s most likely at least 10 more RBI.
“Seriously though how much better would the team have been if the guy with 77 PA with RISP could even hit .250 there instead of .160″
BINGO!!!!!!!!!
Why don’t you answer that question since it is the one the post is asking instead of spending more time just complaining about me not getting down on Ike!
Can you answer that question?
And the solution to that is?
Move him down in the order!
Relace him with who?
You guys who were all concerned about spending money and signing old guys all want Lee now?
A guy no one in the MLB wanted? Just as you guys claim about reyes?
The temporary solution for now that’s an easy fix is moving Duda for a few weeks while you send Ike away to try to be fixed. I like you don’t care where he is fixed but it’s almost impossible to fix a kid who is playing this badly while he is still playing at the MLB level.
I know you have said you don’t want to take time away from Duda’s learning RF but there’s two things to that. One, a few weeks of playing 1B instead of RF isn’t going to set him back. Two if Ike doesn’t improve then he might be the full-time 1B next year… I know scary thought.
Easy for who? DUDA?
You have one bad player so your intention is to mess with another and maybe make TWO broke players instead of just one?
If Duda is so mentally weak that he can’t handle playing 1B for a few weeks then he is garbage anyway.
Yeah they are all garbage and disposable unless found by Sandy aren’t they?
Thats really what you wanted to say isn’t it?
What in the hell are you talking about? I don’t give a damn who found the guy.
I think I made my point very clear. If for some reason moving Duda to 1B for a few weeks wrecks him as a player then he is mentally weak anyway. It has nothing to do with who found him. Nice try in turning this into a Sandy debate.
I like Wright, Murphy, Duda, Davis (yeah I still like him, picked him to be the 2nd best 1B in the NL East), Kirk… seriously this debate you guys start is going to kill this place. No one has even mentioned Sandy the entire post and you throw this tidbit in?
Just pointing out that your patience with the Pen is different than your patience with Ike…
And the only real difference is who found them that I can tell…
You certainly have refused to name the games Ike cost us compared to that pen…
Which says to me you can’t name a game he cost us just assume one exists!
Again, this is your post. The burden of proof is actually on you. You go back and find each game individually for each member of the pen and tell where they cost us the game and then go back and for that same pitcher include where they helped win the game. Once you do that then I will go back and look at Ike’s stuff. Otherwise it’s a waste of my time.
Oh I wasn’t very patient with wanting Acosta and Carrasco off the team based on their performance and wanted Rauch DLed this week.
My post was about Ike Davis!
Guess you missed it!
I made my case about the bullpen when the subject was the Bullpen!
You wish to prove Ike cost us more games than feel free to use my data on games the Bullpen cost and compare it to games you can indentify that Ike cost us!
Because GOD FORBID we rehash topics over and over aghin you know…Makes TRS a very cranky boy!
LOL
Yeah but was all about patience with Ramirez, Rauch and Francisco though weren’t you…
So you took every pitcher in the bullpen individually and broke down every game that they personally lost for us and every game they personally had a hand in winning?
Link please??
YAWN…..Let me know when the record stops skipping here and I’ll come back…
yes russel a collection of players who have cost us way more games than Ike has!
But you can’t compare a collection to an individual. It doesn’t work that way.
Has even one gone down to the Minors yet?
NOPE!
Sure some of the meat grinders have gone down to the minors. Some have even been released.
And some thankfully have gone on the DL too!
And what you keep propounding is entirely beside the point, and, I daresay beyond the reasonably stated counterfactual.
For an Ike replacement, it’s bloody simple man: move Duda to 1B, and give more playing time to Hairston.
Su propose to fix a player whi is struggling by messing with a player who WAS struggling, is just breaking out of it and messing with him!
Smart move for a fool!
You don’t let one problem cause another!
Did either of you actually read the article?
Can you tell me which question I Posed?
I’ll remind you…
“Which begs the question…Holding this team back from what?”
So tell us what you think our record should be if Ike was hitting like Ike!
Then tell me how that jives with what you thought this team would do back in december!
Did you say back then we were SUPPOSED to be the best team in baseball?
Really? I would love to see a link proving it from anyone who claims that!
If not then Ike isn’t really costing you anything!
the team mis doing better than you THOUGHT it would DESPITE HIM!
Hence the FAN POST!
So in return we should also not complain about the bullpen. Right?
Who has cost us more games?
I’ll let you decide that!
We know Ike is capable of better than what we are getting…
The Bullpen guys have been doing these things long before they got here!
Have I complained about the Bullpen recently?
Had lots of opportunity to…
Or is this just an attempt by the guy who claims he is sick of it to make this into a Sandy Omar thread?
Lets see who has cost us more games?
Ike vs FFF
Ike vs Rauch
Ike vs Acosta
Ike vs Ramirez
Ike vs Parnell
Ike vs Batista
Ike vs Byrdak
See a common theme here? It’s Ike vs one single player. You can’t compare one player to a group of players. It doesn’t work that way.
But I can name the games those guys cost us, Can you name the games Ike Cost us?
If not you don’t really have much of a case when comparing those now do you?
Just ASSuming he cost us games…
OK you go back individually and break down where each of those guys individually again cost us a game and then how many games each of them individually had a hand in winning the game. Once you do that and report then I will go back and do the same for Ike.
Seriously? This argument is flawed and failed. You can’t compare one offensive player to a unit of pitchers.
I already did that two weeks ago…You were there!
Go re read it!
Then I will add any games that occurred after that post!
Ball is in your court…
I did my work and published it weeks ago!
No you haven’t. I am asking if you broke down each individual bullpen pitcher and how many games they cost us as an individual balanced out by how many games they helped us win. Your response above was no.
When you do that then I will take the time to look at Davis. Otherwise, I will need to look at the entire infield instead of just Davis.
I broke down VERY LOSS incurred by thre bullpen!
Every lead that was given up!
Every tie they gave up!
and all the losses they were credited with!
You want it sorted another way knock yourself out!
So the answer is no. I got it. Why not say that in the first place that you did not
” take every pitcher in the bullpen individually and broke down every game that they personally lost for us and every game they personally had a hand in winning?”
That way we could have saved some time.
The answer to your original question is all 7 have cost us games!
I noted who did what long ago…
This attempt by you is just badgering and I will simply ignore you when you know full well I have cited GAMES COST and on an indivdual basis doesn’t matter!
That’s not my question and you saying that you already answered it is untrue.
My question is how many games have they individually cost us because to compare Ike Davis you have to compare them individually because you can’t compare one player to a group of players.
So basically you could have saved all of this by saying that you don’t have that information.
I wasn’t aware that I was your piss boy and reseacrh assistant…
I charge $75 an hour for my services so if you want to make a point and have me research data to support your position I suggest you send a check.
If not I suggest you go do your own research and post your findings here to actually MAKE a point!
If not you have no point and are just spamming this thread!
LOL, you are spamming your own thread. Provide the link and prove me wrong. Isn’t that what you love doing?
Have you provided any link or data here?
NOPE!
I showed mine!
Either you are too embarassed to show yours or you have nothing which means no point just repetitive insistence…Shades of Fonzie is he writing your material this week?
Do you have a point to make?
I showed the entire pen has blown games for us.
You have yet to counter that with games Ike blew!
Which means I am killing you in the example fight here about 5 – nothing!
Because all you have provided so far is NOTHING but requests! Not a hred of data in anything you have said!
Provide the link Metsie…
The link that disprove what? You have yet to make a point that a link can disprove!
You go find what you want.
When you show me a link that shows all the games you think Ike Blew then I might be inspired to find my link showing what the pen has blown!
And I might even update it with more recent data!
Right now no point in posting a link to disprove your current lack of data!
You are saying you already posted the information that proves the point of individually how many games each member has cost us. Provide the link. We know your link doesn’t do that so even provide the link to what you did post. Why are you so afraid to post the link to this “proof”?
YAWN….
I posted evidence that the pen has cost us games and cited the games.
You Aksed:
Author: TRS86
Comment:
Again, this is your post. The burden of proof is actually on you. You go back and find each game individually for each member of the pen and tell where they cost us the game
YES! I did that weeks ago!
You want to see it again I suggest you go searching!
I’m not your personal bookmark assistant!
And I see no point in looking for it just so there it can be compared to the big pile of nothing you provided to compare it to!
So either show your data and then I might be inclined to find my own and repost it for you…
Until then you want something done or a point made it’s on you to take the intiative…not me!
My point stands as spoken and written by me!
Ike has not cost us more games than the bullpen!
You think individually Player as opposed to individually by game it’s different show the data!
If not you got nothing and I won’t waste my time on a guy who is arguing with an empty basket!
Anything other than a listing of dates of games Ike cost us will be ignored unti;l such time as you bring something to actually debate about!
It should also be pointed out your the only who seemsto disagree with that little piece of my post…
No one else is questioning that the pen has blown more games or an equal number as Ike…JUST YOU!
And as your proof you show….
NOTHING!
Give the link where you list them individually Metsie.
One I never said that the pen hasn’t cost us more games than Ike. Why would I compare Ike to a group of pitchers? That would be completely idiotic. Two, I asked if you broke down the games cost by individual pitchers in the pen so you actually could compare them individually to Ike. You said you did have it, then said you did not have it, then said you do have it. Just give the link to what you said. I even did the pleasure of trying to search for it and came back with nothing. So provide the link Metsie. You either did or did not break down games cost by each member of the pen.
Find your own information!
I’m not your personal boomark monitor.
“One I never said that the pen hasn’t cost us more games than Ike.”
NO never….
TRS86 June 8, 2012 at 1:44 pm .
Do it, name all the games the pen cost us. Then go back and name all the games the pen helped us.
Now break that down by individual pitchers because otherwise I get you use V-spin’s and Murphy’s errors against Ike.
I did the games individually only the ones they cost us…you want players individually knock yourself out!
You want to change the conversation to how many games the pen has won for us compared to ike we can do that when you wite that piece and submit it in a fan post!
The entire time my point has been that you can’t compare Ike to a group of players you have to compare them individually. I have about 50 post here saying that because you will never provide the link where you said you did that, then said you did not then said you did.
Also where does
TRS86 June 8, 2012 at 1:44 pm .
Do it, name all the games the pen cost us. Then go back and name all the games the pen helped us.
Now break that down by individual pitchers because otherwise I get you use V-spin’s and Murphy’s errors against Ike.”
say that I think Ike has cost us more games than the pen combined?
Comparing Ike to a group of relievers as a whole is about as idiotic as any comparison I could do.
Yep and refusing to show the proof of a sup[posed point you made is even more idiotic.
You listed dates but did not show the circumstances that showed Ike blew those games for us not someone else….
As for a blown save in a loss well when you have the lead and the pitcher gives it up he is pretty much the dog there…
If you think not then lets take another shot here at who is being IDIOTIC!
And I wanted it noted YOU were the first to use the word IDIOT towards a poster so I guess I can use it now till my heart is content!
MAKE A POINT IDIOT!
SHOW YOUR COMPARATORS!
If not you have no point and if you have no point there is no point in entertaining you with a response!
The Pen has blown more games for us than Ike has!
Plain and Simple!
Wish to say otherwise then do so and stop boring the rest of us!
I stand by the fact that comparing one batter to a collection of ten or more relievers is idiotic.
And i sand by the fact that you didn’t show Ike was worse than any single Reliever or cost us more games than any one of that collection…
So Make the comparison you don’t think is idiotic and show us the data to back it up.
If not you have no point your just playing the contradiction game!
Easy to do and often used by those who have no intentions of backing up what they say!
I gave all the proof I needed with 0-41 in 14 losses and 6 games in which his ofers could have cost the win. l also showed where his avg and obp ranked in baseball and what the same was for a pitchers. You can discount it all you want and it won’t change anything. Have fun I’m done.
Really? Games he COULD have cost us the win?
Hell I guess I can start adding a ton more games to the Pen’s record if COULD is the parameter for citing dates!
The first thing some fans have to realize is that although not much was expected from this team, the fact that we have been getting great starting pitching has kept us near the top of the division.
Instead of asking why or expecting this team to fall back to mediocrity, the Mets should be instead doing whatever it takes to keep this momentum going. How long has it been since we had a team worth watching?
Simply put, Ike is hurting the lineup just like Acosta was hurting the BP. The difference is that Acosta although late, was held accountable while Ike has not been.
You CANNOT kill this wonderful momentum we have going because of one player. The team is more important and just like we moved on from losing Reyes, we can move on from not having Ike with the team. You cannot have a 24+1 team and by not making Ike accountable while the other 24 players are, that’s what you have.
Ike cannot be starting while the power bat we need sits on the bench in Hairston. It is not just baseball sense but good business sense assuming that the Mets want fans to fill the stadium.
“Apr 15th OK
Apr 17th the Mets were down 6-2 when he went in and he left down 8-2. Crappy but didn’t cost us the game.
May 13th he was bad and did get a blown save in the 7th but FFF blew the game as did Acosta. But I will give you that one.
May 18th They were down 10-1 when Ramirez came in LOL.
That’s awful, did you just pick random games?
Now as for Davis. Here’s a few you could say Ike cost us, I am sure there are more and some of these games you could blame someone else, maybe even just as much. Then that rule would have to apply to any individual from the pen as well.
April 20 lost 5-4
May 4 lost 7-6
May 19 lost 2-0
May 21 lost 5-4
June 4 lost 5-4
June 5 lost 5-4
Ike combined 0/20.
OK I’ll accept your situational exception o the 18th…
I have 3 CLEAR Blown games due to Ramirez alone…
Now show me the situations where the dates you listed were CLEARY blown by Ike…
Since you have suggested that maybe he wasn’t nthe sole reason…I have three that says Ramirez IS the sole reason…
And then we will move onto Acosta next what do you say?
Gonna take this to the end?
Or going to just add more wishy washy maybe he blew it maybe he didnt’t dates to try and catch up?
You only gave 2. They were down 6-2 when Ramirez came in on the 17th.
A blown save in a loss doesn’t mean that pitcher was the only reason they lost saying that is just like me saying that Ike lost those games. Ramirez is 2-1 this year so that means he only truly LOST 1 game for the team. Obviously he hurt us in more than one game and BS do stink but why does the loss go on someone else in those games? Does that mean that someone else also is to blame?
I gave you the games.
Here is another stat.
The Mets have lost 14 games in which Ike went hitless (0-41) and another 6 in which he only had 1 hit.
That means in 20 of the Mets losses he has one hit or less.
and you have given none just a list of games he COULD have cost us but your not sure!
I think this goes far beyond whether Ike has cost the team wins or losses. It’s about getting this guy on the right track, same track we all thought he’d be on since we’ve initially seen him.
Fair assumption is the bulk of this fan base really does like Ike and wishes him to do well, obviously as Mets fans and for him personally.
Looking long term, sending him down may be the best for him and the team, even if its just for a few weeks. As far as his fielding, he’s been good, but lets not make him out to be Keith Hernandez out there. All season adjustments have had to be made, I believe it’s in our best interest to get him on the right track and get that help in the minors.
Key no one is saying Ike doesn’t need to be fixed…
The Question I was asking but went over most peoples head is how good is this team that everyone thinks Ike is holding back?
Are we the best team in baseball but are being denied that title because of Ike?
I don’t think he’s holding the team back either, but that’s right now. If they continue on this path and stay “in it” per say, you, me, we may look back at a game and realize his out was indeed the difference maker. I’m all for being pro-active.
Let’s be honest, if we are late in August, or early September and there is a tie game, late, RISP and he’s and out, there will be screaming. Well, if a certain 3B made the out you know there would be screaming and rehashing of that same AB for years to come, so let’s assume there will be consistent disappointment.
Of course I hope it doesn’t come down to that, he turns it around and we don’t have to discuss this again. If that means some remedial time in the Minors, so be it.
PS – although I said he’s not exactly hurting the team, if a team is going to be successful they do need 25 guys to be on board, and he’s not right now. Everyone needs to step up including Ike.