But pray tell how do you study that? (if you know I would love to hear their methodology!)

Examine a guy make him throw 100 pitches and then examine him again?
Calculate the damage?

Or did they merely do some statistical analysis on guys who pitched X amount of innings and determined what amount of pitches would be average and ok before you were likely to damage yourself?

Because before there were pitch counts Pitchers hardly ever got pulled after 6 innings and most of them pitched to their 40′s!

If you can find it I would love to read this research!

Dickey with his knuckle ball is one that does not need to be limited (within reason)

No, on how pitch counts affect the arm. I’ve read studies that have drawn the conclusion that pitch counts do more to preserve a pitcher’s health than the extra day rest 5 man rotations provide.

“It’s because of the same reason they have pitch counts…because they are over cautious and put guys on the DL and skip starts for minor issues.”

Because they are more aware of the health issues.

“Please oh please tell me how they can estimate how many pitches that guy is good for?”

Several factors

“Really they set a number based on what he pitched before not based on his arm’s ability in any way!”

Uh, no. They do use previous appearance but that is only a part of the equation. Mechanics, age, health history, comparable pitchers etc etc all figure into it.

“Also, is that because of pitch counts or because we have more ways of discovering health problems? ”
It’s because of the same reason they have pitch counts…because they are over cautious and put guys on the DL and skip starts for minor issues.

“And they use pitch counts to estimate when a pitcher’s arm is going to wear down”
Please oh please tell me how they can estimate how many pitches that guy is good for?
Really they set a number based on what he pitched before not based on his arm’s ability in any way!

They set a standard count number and adjust based on what he pitched the day before as if the Arm is some sort of Deli Counter ticket dispenser and will run out of tickets if too many pitches are thrown.

His Arm has nothing to do with it!

Ya, that is what I said.

“There is no data that shows pitchers on pitch counts get hurt any less than guys without them.”

There is medical research.

“Since they started using Pitch counts more pitchers have actually been injured than there were in the days before they came in use.”

Got data for that?

Also, is that because of pitch counts or because we have more ways of discovering health problems?

The average career is lasting longer and pitchers are remaining effective longer into the season.

“It’s not the COUNT of pitches that hurt you it is the state of tiredness when you make them that throws your mechanics off leading to the injury.”

And they use pitch counts to estimate when a pitcher’s arm is going to wear down. That is the point of them.

Also, bad mechanics starting at younger ages seem to be the biggest factor in leading to injuries.

“Every player is different and no one knows what his body is feeling better than him, Not even doctors because Doctors can only go by what the player tells him.
Then they test based on what he said.”

Or, they can go by what he displays. You can lie, but your body can’t.

There is no data that shows pitchers on pitch counts get hurt any less than guys without them.

Since they started using Pitch counts more pitchers have actually been injured than there were in the days before they came in use. Some of that is because they are over cautious as well.

It’s not the COUNT of pitches that hurt you it is the state of tiredness when you make them that throws your mechanics off leading to the injury.

As long as the guy is not tired his mechanics should be fine.
And I don’t think anyone has suggested that if you see a breakdown in his mechanics late in a game that you shouldn’t pull him even if he has NOT reached his pitch count yet!

Every player is different and no one knows what his body is feeling better than him, Not even doctors because Doctors can only go by what the player tells him.
Then they test based on what he said.

And they don’t necessarily “know their own bodies” better than the doctors.

Nah I think Bernie always wears stripes these days! That is when he is not bent over the bathroom sink! LOL

By the way, doesnt Bill Maher look like Bernie Madoff in that shot? I had to do a double take.

Johan coming off of injury is a special case and by this time next year that changes.

And even in his case set the target but you have to let him decide if he has more or not.
Fine line between Cautious and babying!