11
2012
An Organizational Flaw
An article by 
As I watched the Subway Series this weekend, I couldn’t help but feel disgust for the Mets bullpen. I know I’m not alone here.
In terms of Rauch, Francisco and Ramirez, I felt that the “back of their baseball card,” was enough to make me feel okay about their acquisitions. I still think they are better than they are pitching, but it simply isn’t looking good right now.
I wonder if the Mets didn’t acquire them, what were better options and how do we know they are or were better options?
As I watched yesterday’s game, I shot a text to my friend “Has all the makings of a Francisco blown save,” little did I know Parnell & Rauch would beat him to it.
As we receive word that Mejia is being pushed to the bullpen in Buffalo, it reminds me of a thought I’ve had recently.
This organization is absolutely terrible at developing bullpen arms.
Everybody here knows (or at least should know), that a bullpen is the biggest role of the dice on a roster. Pitchers who throw limited innings can have such rollercoaster like careers. Look at J.J. Putz as an example: 3.88 ERA before he came to the Mets, then a 5.22 ERA with the Mets, then 2.83 in Chicago to 2.17 in Arizona and now he has a 5.40 ERA.
So I decided to take a look at the Mets bullpen arms since 1994. I chose 1994 for a few reasons.
#1: The new division alignment with the Marlins. This way I can compare the Mets as a franchise to their current division rivals.
#2: Since 1994, there have been 5 Mets General Managers. Joe McIlvaine, Steve Phillips, Jim Duquette, Omar Minaya, and now Sandy Alderson. I felt this was a fair way to judge, especially so nobody accuses anybody of being pro or against certain GMs.
So here’s the criteria I decided to put in place:
I looked at every bullpen pitcher from 2011 down to 1994 with the Mets.
- They must have DEBUTED with the Mets.
- They must have a minimum 30 appearances
- They must have a maximum 4.99 ERA.
So here is who we have:
Pedro Beato: 24 years old in 2011, he appeared in 60 games with a 4.30 ERA. Beato was a Rule 5 Draft selection.
Ryota Igarashi: 32 years old in 2011, he appeared in 45 games with a 4.66 ERA. He also appeared in 34 games in 2010 with an ERA over 7. He was signed as a free agent in 2009.
Jenrry Mejia: 20 years old in 2010, he appeared in 33 games with a 4.62 ERA. He was signed by the Mets in 2007.
Bobby Parnell: He was 25 years old in 2010, when he appeared in 41 games with a 2.83 ERA. He also appeared in 68 games in 2009, but had an ERA of 5.30. Since Opening Day 2010, Parnell has appeared in 132 games with a 3.42 ERA. He was drafted in 2005.
Pedro Feliciano: 29 years old in 2006, when he appeared in 64 games with a 2.09 ERA. Prior to 2006 he did appear in 51 games from 2002-2004 with a combined ERA of 4.21. From 2006-2010, Feliciano appeared in 408 Games with a 3.09 ERA. He was signed as a free agent (after being waived by Mets then released by Detroit).
Raul Valdes: 32 years old in 2010, appeared in 38 games with a 4.91 ERA. He was signed as a free agent in 2006.
Hisanori Takahashi: 35 years old in 2010, appeared in 53 games with a 3.61 ERA. He was signed as international free agent.
Aaron Heilman: 26 years old in 2005, appeared in 53 games with a 3.17 ERA. Then in 2006 he appeared in 74 games with a 3.62 ERA, followed by 81 appearances in 2007 with a 3.03 ERA. He was drafted in 2001, and was also a part of the J.J. Putz deal following a poor 2008 season.
Joe Smith: 23 years old in 2007. He appeared in 54 games with a 3.45 ERA. Then also in 2008, he had 82 appearances with a 3.55 ERA. Smith was drafted in 2006. He was traded in the J.J. Putz deal in 2008.
Dae-Sung Koo: 35 years old in 2005, appeared in 33 games with a 3.91 ERA. He was signed as a free agent.
Grant Roberts: 24 years old in 2002, appeared in 34 games with a 2.20 ERA. Also appeared in 16 games in 2001, and 18 games in 2003. He was drafted in 1995.
Jerrod Riggan: 27 years old in 2001, appeared in 35 games with a 3.40 ERA. Signed as a free agent in 1998.
Cory Lidle: 25 years old in 1997, appeared in 54 games with a 3.53 ERA. Acquired via trade in 1996 for Kelly Stinnett.
Takashi Kashiwada: 26 years old in 1997, appeared in 35 games with a 4.31 ERA. Purchased from Yomiura Giants.
Paul Byrd: 25 years old in 1996, 38 appearances with a 4.24 ERA. Byrd also appeared in 17 games in 1995 with a 2.05 ERA. He was acquired in 1994 trade that sent Jeromy Burnitz to Cleveland.
That is a total of 15 Mets pitchers in 18 seasons.
NOTE: Heath Bell made his debut for the Mets, but in his only season with a minimum 30 appearances, his ERA was 5.59.
When I look at this list, I notice a few things. For starters, that J.J. Putz deal in which the Mets sent Joe Smith to Cleveland is looking pretty terrible these days. Since the Mets traded Smith, he has appeared in 188 games, thrown 166 innings, struck out 129, and has an ERA of 2.93.
Second, I reminisce of the days of Pedro Feliciano.
Third, if I had to create a bullpen of 6 guys out of that crew, it’d probably be pretty tough. You’d have to include Feliciano, Smith, Parnell, Heilman as a starting out point. After that, I’d probably throw in Takahashi and then the late Cory Lidle.
So I wanted to see how they stacked up against the division opponents.
If I start in 2011, how many years will it take me to get to 15 bullpen pitchers using the same criteria?
Washington: Drew Storen, Henry Rodriguez, Ryan Mattheus, Jason Bergmann, Joel Hanrahan, Saul Rivera, Luis Ayala, Steven Shell, Chad Cordero, Chris Schroder, Gary Majewski, T.J. Tucker, Joe Horgan, Scott Stewart, Scott Strickland, Ugueth Urbina. Note, this is also 16 pitchers because Urbina and Strickland were both on the same team.
That takes us to 2001, a total of 11 seasons.
If I had to take the 6 best guys here, it’d probably be Storen, Rodriguez, Hanrahan, Cordero, Strickland, and Urbina. I don’t know about you, but I’d take that over the Mets 6 easily.
That takes us to 2001, a total of 11 seasons.
Atlanta: Craig Kimbrel, Johnny Venters, Peter Moylan, Kris Medlan, Manny Acosta, Blaine Boyer, Macay McBride, John Foster, Kevin Gryboski, Trey Hodges, Kerry Lightenberg, Tim Spooneybarger, John Rocker, Jason Marquis, Kevin McGlinchy.
This takes us to 1999, 13 seasons.
(Note: I did not include John Smoltz’s bullpen stints in this. If you do, then the total would be 12 seasons.)
If I had to take the 6 best guys here, it’d be Kimbrel, Venters, Moylan, Medlan, Rocker and Marquis. I’d take those 6 over the Mets 6 for sure.
Miami: Burke Badenhop, Steve Cishek, Renyel Pinto, Matt Lindstrom, Logan Kensing, Taylor Tankersley. Nate Bump, Michael Tejera, Armando Almanza, Blaine Neal, Vic Darensbourg, Matt Mantei, Kirt Ojala, Jay Powell, Felix Heredia, Rob Stanifer in 15 seasons.
This takes us to 1997.
If I had to take 6 Marlins here, I’d go with Cishek, Lindstrom, Tankersley, Mantei, Powell and Heredia. I’d likely take the Mets best 6 over these guys.
One thing to note here, the Marlins ability to develop young bullpen pitchers from 1994-2000 was severely hamstrung by the fact they were only first in existence in 1994. Even with that caveat, they still got to 15 in less time.
Philadelphia: Ryan Madson, Kyle Kendrick, Michael Stutes, Antonio Bastardo, David Herndon, Geoff Geary, Brett Myers, Carlos Silva, Dave Coggin, Wayne Gomes, Eddie Oropesa, Steve Shrenk, Toby Borland, Mike Williams.
If I had to take 6 from Philadelphia, I’d take Madson, Kendrick, Bastardo, Herndon, Myers, and Silva. I’d probably take those 6 over the Mets 6.
With the Phillies, I could only get 14 players up to 1994. But, there is a catch. From Madson to Silva, that is 8 players in the last 9 years. You can clearly see an organizational shift beginning with Ed Wade taking over for Lee Thomas then being succeeded by Pat Gillick.
If you look at the NL East list, there have been 9 effective closers that debuted in the NL East. They are Madson, Myers, Mantei, Kimbrel, Rocker, Storen, Hanrahan, Cordero, and Urbina.
Every NL East has at least 1 representative on that list, except the Mets. (Note: This only goes as far back as it took each team to get to 15 pitchers.)
Every year it seems the Mets are hunting the free agent market for band-aids in the bullpen.
When you have money to spend, if you spend it on the biggest wildcard position on your roster, you decrease your chances of getting value for the money you spend.
When you throw in the injury/age factor, you severely decrease your odds even further.
Some people look at the current bullpen and scoff at Omar Minaya for forcing Alderson to go acquire 3-4 bullpen arms as a short term solution.
However, if you take a deeper look, it is clear that this has not been a Minaya problem; it’s been an organizational problem for the last 18+ years.
I’m starting to wonder why?
About the Author: Michael J. Branda
My time with MMO began in July of 2009 when I wrote a Fan Post defending Omar Minaya (before it was cool to do that.) I grew up a Mets fan with the mid 1980's teams. My favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, I like to think I meet in the middle. I believe thinking of new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the same way has not produced results. However, I think over-thinking certain situations can get you into trouble. I'm excited for the new regime, because I believe they have pieces in place to focus on several aspects of the Mets organization. I've waited this long for a World Series, waiting a few more years for another chance isn't going to kill me.
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“so nobody accuses anybody of being pro or against certain GMs.”
Fat chance.
And just like clock-work, queue the shoutbox >>>>>>>>
Unfortunately there is no cliffnotes version of my blog.
So if somebody in the shoutbox wants to ASSUME this article is me “trying to rationalize the Front Office’s bullpen,” then we’ll just have to chalk it up to an inability to put sentences together.
Because I’m fairly certain that my goal of this article is to point out we should NOT be in a position to sign bullpen arms year after year.
Salty: Thanks for the comment haha… here’s the truth though, no matter if you’re pro Omar, pro Phillips, pro Alderson… the data is there.
Realistically 3 GMs and their staff (don’t let them off the hook here) had PLENTY of time to develop young useful arms out of the pen… and they all pretty much failed compared to the rest of the division.
This is something I HOPE Alderson and his staff can change, but will wait the proper amount of time to judge.
Think about this though. Pedro Beato is Alderson’s 1 and only young arm brought in and debuted with the Mets.
I’d take his 2011 season as a whole over Igarashi, Valdes, Koo, Roberts, Riggan, Kashiwada.
That’s HALF of the bullpen arms in the last 18 years!
And besides the newly converted bullpen arm of Mejia, most of the next wave is still probably a couple years away. I haven’t look at all the later draft picks from this year yet but I remember they drafted a lot of arms the previous year and I hope that can be the foundation.
like the effort you put in this article , props for that . About the bullpen lack since 1994 all i can say is that we had some good arms and let them go cause we dont saw what they can do . So they were here already…. has to be a manager problem, but i have trust in this organization , we have a ton of talent and the important thing some of them already showed they have what it needs.
thanks Angelo!
Great effort Jessep. The pen has been really piss-poor since 06 but the fact that the team hasn’t produced enough quality has also to do with retention I imagine.
There are so many years where the team makes a trade and throws a arm in the mix for good measure.
_____________________________________________________________________
When you look at the Mets good pens like 86, 99-00 and 06, most of them were acquisitions.
Benitez, Wendell, Cook, Wagner, Bradford, Sanchez.
When you look at those names, most of them either would either cost serious coin in FA or legitimate assets will need to be traded if it was todays market. They traded Charles Johnson to get Benitez. Wendell was a FA for 661k. Mets traded
Fletcher Bates and Scott Comer for Cook. Remember those guys, real studs! Wags was a FA at 10.5m, Bradford was a 1.4m FA signing, and Sanchez was acquired in trade by giving up Tim Hamulack and Jae Weong Seo.
The reliever market is so different compared to the 94-2002 years and has steadily become a very hot commodity where teams really need to focus their draft on them.
Good point, Salty. We’ve seen a lot more specialization for relievers, which is driving up their value. You used to be able to throw some failed journey man starters to make a bullpen. Now, you need guys who have been dedicated to it.
Exactly Gary. There is no denying that the Mets have had good bullpen arms. The PROBLEM is, they’ve always seemed to have to go buy them or get them as they are in the later years of their career.
In today’s market, teams hold onto their players more. The odds of you getting a young quality reliever through trade or free agency are less than if you tried that in the mid 90′s.
The Mets do not develop young arms. They’ve been patching their bullpen up for years and years.
There are some coming up at least.
Elvin is already here (jury out of course).
edgin and Leatherstrich are moving up.
and I think there are a couple other guys that are dedicated relievers that have promise.
so hopefully this list gets outdated real soon!
Right now we are just a little more than a 3rd of the way through the season. A lot of baseball remains to see what the end result is. So far the pen has been more bad than good by a lot.
Ramirez in his limited showing has not lived up to the expectations set for him when he was traded for. He has shown the ability to pitch better in the past so there is still time to see if he can get back to that.
Rauch got off to a good start but over his past 16 appearances he has been just stinking it up. How much is due to “debris” I can’t say but if he continues to need rest down the road due to it they might as well scope him and shut him down.
Francisco is like Jekyll & Hyde you don’t know who you will get coming out of the pen on any given night.
Parnell who got off to a good start and credited much of his success to Izzy teaching him a new pitch last year has come back to earth and he may just never be suited to pitch in 8th or 9th inning situations and may just be a 7th inning guy.
The big picture is the players brought in were never meant to be long term solutions in the pen. As some in the past have said the long term solution will most likely come from within be it possibly a Mejia, Edgin, Familia, Leatherisch or some other arm.
The Mets GM has already noted that the pen may need help if the team somehow is in a playoff hunt come near the trading deadline. “It’s very possible we will still need help in the bullpen but there may be some other areas of need that will emerge and we’ll have to address.” Right now at this rate I’d say that is currently their biggest need.
I had to pretend Jessep didn;t write this just so I could find the urge to post. But I’ve been complaining about this problem for years on this site. It’s appalling how we have to tirn to free agency every time we need a closer, or a trade. It’s been going on for decades. It shouldn’t be too hard to develop one freaking pitcher who can throw a fastball and one secondary pitch for strikes and yet it has been for the Mets.
But that’s all about to change because Omar Minaya left us what could be some elite relievers that will start coming as soon as this season. Jenrry Mejia, Jeurys Familia, Josh Edgin to name a few. Parnell had the arm and the talent but not the stomach. He could have and should have been a solid late game reliever, but you dont know on draft day if these kids will have the stomach for it and Parnell certainly doesn’t.
Joe Smith was another great Minaya find and you highlighted him, but Putz was established during the trade and was hurt as a Met. Still a solid trade, look at Putz now!
But as for Rauch, he sucked last year and did not merit a $3.5 million guaranteed deal. And Francisco had the worst conversion rate for closers with 50 or more opportunities when we gave him $12 million. He’s never succeeded as a closer and fits the Bobby Parnell mold to a tee.
Times have been bad, and they certainly haven’t gotten better under Alderson, but we have good times coming and we all know why.
“Joe Smith was another great Minaya find and you highlighted him, but Putz was established during the trade and was hurt as a Met. Still a solid trade, look at Putz now!”
Putz was hurt before coming to the Mets. That is why that trade so was pathetically stupid.
“but we have good times coming and we all know why.”
Because we aren’t trading for injured players and signingScott Schoenweis and Guillermo Mota? Because we aren’t letting the New York Post dictate our moves? Because we may have finally stopped running the organization like it is 1998?
Oh Ramirez and Torres have not been hurt?
I didn’t know that I wonder why I didn’t know that?
We didn’t sign a guy who got hurt?
Baxter and Rauch are all fine and healthy?
Francisco hasn’t battled a leg problem?
Quntanilla has a broken finger but he’s still playing and hitting too…
I have a suggestion on how to fix Jason Bay and Ike Davis…
WE MUST break one of thier fingers it does wonders for a players HR potential apparently.
Ya, none of that has to do with the topic at hand or any of the points Maniac has tried to derail the conversation with.
No they just addressed that crap you brought up that had nothing to do with the topic at hand and was meant to derail the conversation….
Too bad for you that I responded and showed your attempt to claim Omar was worse as another donal folly!
Since you seemed intent on making another Omar vs Sandy thread out of this I will refrain from taking it any further and let my post in rply to it serve as fair warning to you and the rest…
If you go there we will be happy to give you exactly what you wanted!
And show everyone this is exactly why it happens not because we start the Sandy vs Omar crap but those who defende Sandy do it whenever they get backed into a corner!
Warning of what? You’re overwhelming need to bog down discussion with your insane ramblings?
Hello POT!
You are the king of insane incoherent postings and off topic ramblings!
You are as useless here as tits on a bull!
You have nothing to add just sit back and snipe at posters like a drunken Irish guy in a bar waiting for a fight to happen he can jump in on!
“Hello POT!”
And with 2 words, all of Metsie’s posts are explained.
I can describe all of your posts with one word (although many one words will apply!)
POINTLESS!
Honorable mention to:
meaningless
stupid
wastefull
idiotic
bullying
chlidish
So so desperate. I really do feel sorry for you. Go ahead, you can have the last word. I know how much it means to you.
Yeah whatever you say Asswipe!
Funny did you get all those lines you been using from what everyone was saying about you in the shoutbox?
Cause thats what they all said…
I find it hilarious that you only come out to try and help Jessup despite the fact he doesn’t need your help and you never provide him with any!
You are useless and never add a damn thing to any conversation!
Just a Parrot without a clue!
“Because we aren’t trading for injured players and signingScott Schoenweis and Guillermo Mota? ”
Scott Schoenwiess as a Met: 4.20 ERA 1.45 WHIP – Signed for 10M
Mota as a Met: 4.66 ERA 1.24 WHIP – Signed for 5M
Frank Francisco as a Met: 5.55 ERA, 1.56 WHIP – signed for 12M
Jon Rauch as a met: 4.88 ERA, 1.29 WHIP – signed for 3.5M
Ramon Ramirez as a met: 4.78 ERA, 1.51 WHIP – acquired in a trade with Torres for Angel Pagan(who’s by the way hitting .321 with 5HR’s and 12SB’s).
D.J Carrasco as a Met: 6.11 ERA, 1.67 WHIP – signed for 1.2M
Yup, now we are not making any more bad bullpen signings or trades.
Thanks for the comment. I hope Mejia turns into a Feliz type arm out of the bullpen, having a young solid reliever can make a huge difference.
I do have to disagree on the Joe Smith deal since Putz was coming with a questionable injury history. Today in June 2012 would you trade Joe Smith for Putz? I wouldn’t. So I’m not sure how that was a good trade.
Smith wasn’t given a chance to succeed here. He was thrown into so many different roles, even at times as a closer. He’s just a solid middle reliever, something Mets fans now see is hard to find.
Rauch’s ERA was high last year but if you look at his actual per game performances and take into account pitching in the AL is slightly harder than NL, he pitched better than his ERA shows.
But, there’s no denying he’s been a disappointment.
My goal here is not to say “don’t blame sandy for Rauch,” it’s to say lets stop the continuing trend of having to find bullpen arms and start developing pitchers who can get batters out.
If you have to spend $, spending it on hitters or starting pitchers is a much better investment than the bullpen because odds are if you spend on bullpen you’re getting more risk than reward.
There is one fatal flaw in this whole article…
You should not be DEVELOPING bullpen arms you should be developing STARTERS who when they are ready to pitch and can’t break into the rotation becomes your Bullpen!
It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to develop a reliever.
By them being exclusively in the pen they only get 1 inning of work per game, how the hell can you develop with such a low workload?
Instead of looking for and drafting a guy who might be a good pen arm look for who will be a good pitcher period.
Try them as starters and only if they show a lack of durability and can’t go more than 3 innings do you then attempt to develop them into a reliever!
It is an approach of failure to try and build a team from the role players up.
You should focus your development on the regular starters and failing success in that role go for the consolation prize of finding a niche they can serve a purpose in.
Over the years of this reasearch what is missing and unstated is they were so busy trying to find some young arms to become starters that the guys on other teams who had starters because starters for us where they were sent to the pen everywhere else!
So it was the lack of developing good starters that hurt the pen because what would be pen elsewhere became starter material for us, not the lack of developing good pen that is the key here!
Two of our best Starters were not developed they were acquired through other means.
Pelfrey, Niese and Gee were the best we could come up with throughout that time period and if we had done a better job developing starters any one of those three would have been in the pen and done everything you think the guys on all those other teams have accomplished.
And if Harvey, Wheeler and Familia manage to upgrade the rotation you will see all of our Bullpen issue go far far away!
Better to improve the everyday players making the role players that much better because they are actually good enough to be starters if the room was there!
For starters, thanks for the comment.
Secondly, “It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to develop a reliever”
If that is the case, then how come Washington and Atlanta have been pretty good at it and Philadelphia was exceptional at it since Wade/Gillick took over?
Kimbrel, Venters, Moylan, Medlan, Burke Badenhop, Steve Cishek, Ryan Madson, Kyle Kendrick, Michael Stutes, Antonio Bastardo, David Herndon, Drew Storen, Henry Rodriguez, Ryan Mattheus, Jason Bergmann, Joel Hanrahan
I AGREE that you need to develop starters. My point was that if you have a budget, you can find more value for your dollar at every other position before you find it in the bullpen.
The bullpen is the least predictable position on a roster. I would hope we can agree on that? So if you are spending less/developing more on the least predictable spot… you have more $ to upgrade other spots that may get you a better VALUE for your dollar.
How Come?
Look at how many Developed Starters they have in thier rotation!
Look how chock full the rotation of Phillies, Atlanta and Washington is!
Phillies bought thier top two (Last year had three not of their own development) And truth is thier pen has been quite an issue for them the past three years as well. Probably due to the same problem all they really developed was Hamels!
Lets look at Atlanta first
Beachy – Developed
Hanson – Developed
Minor – Developed
Delgado – Developed
Hudson – Acquired
Jurrjens – Acquired after his rookie season.
Whatever was left?
Kimbrel
Venters
Went to the pen!
Lets look at Washington
Zimmerman – Developed
Strausburg – Developed
Detwiller – Developed
Gonzales – Trade
Jackson – Free Agent
Whats left?
Mattheus – Developed
Stammen – Developed
So it was the fact they developed very good starters on both those teams and a little of bit of good horse trading that it appears they developed more Relievers than us but thats because they very little room for those good pitchers in the rotation and could put them into the pen where mere decent starters or guys who barely cut it as starters thrive as excellent pen arms!
And when you HAVE those great starter arms your Pen always will be better because you don’t have to over work and over use them the way we do because our Starters are not as good as thiers.
We have been so desperate to develop starting pitching that anyone worth a damn has become a starter!
Think about the Familia situation for just a minute….
Why is that guy constantly mentioned as a possible guy for the pen?
Because he’s a good starter true as that may be but he is the low guy on the totem pole of a rotation consisting of:
Santana
Dickey
Niese
Harvey
Wheeler
Not even going to count Pelfrey in there as he may not even be here next year.
That puts Mejia, Familia, Hefner, Edgin, Beato, and Holt no place to pitch but the pen.
4 out of 5 what could have been starters as your bullpen in 2013-14
And who knows maybe Gee and Pelfrey go there too!
2014 Santana’s last year so maybe Familia or Gee keep thier starting jobs.
Unless some other kid gets developed to be a starter in the next two years that again knocks out a guy developed to be a starter and forces them into being a damn good Reliever instead.
If you fill the REGULAR EVERYDAY position you not only make the EVERY situation good but the role situations as well.
If you shoot to fix the role then your pretty much just forcing yourself to need that role because the regulars aren’t getting the job done!
Fix and improve the SPs and the Pen will follow!
Fix the everyday players and the Bench will follow!
Developing for the situational will not solve the situation better than the developing to stay out of that situation altogether in the first place!
Improve and develop from the Starters down not the Bench up!
Here is the problem I think we’re running into.
You’re assuming I don’t want to develop starters. I do. The problem is the Mets have 4 starters plus about 4 others in the system who show promise.
I also believe if you spend money on the rotation, you get more value than if you spend on the bullpen because the bullpen is a greater risk of failure.
Your list is not fair because you’re making it seem like these teams just developed arms and ran out of rotation spots.
A guy like Kimbrel was drafted in 07, never started a single game in the minors. The plan for him was always to be in the bullpen and now he’s easily one of the best closers in the sport.
Teams develop bullpen arms all the time. But in the grand scheme of things, yes the Mets need to develop more ARMS period.
If you look at them from 1994 through 2011, their starting pitcher arms developed would likely keep them at the bottom of the NL East also.
But, again, if they have $ to spend, I’d prefer they spend on SP and not RP.
Well when you say we aren’t developing Relievers what am I supposed to take from that?
What I’m basically saying is that the reason we don’t have the relievers is because they have been pressed into service as starters!
We have as a whole failed to develop PITCHING period.
There are a few reasons for that…
One hasn’t been a lot of pitching available to buy or draft. Drafting late as we have is part of it but no real excuses there since Atlanta found them!
I Agree it’s better to buy starters not just starting pitching but everyday positions as well!
But looking at the pitching for a sec…
If we had (and I have said this plenty) bought a frontline starter from 2006-2008 would Pelfrey have been rushed, Perez Resigned, Maine remain a starter or thrown into the pen where he was less likely to blow out his elbow?
Omar did try to buy starters and we have for the past year and a half raked him over the coals for doing that but him doing that did allow us to develop the future starters and many of the regular players we are relying on now and for the next two or three years.
This lack of good pen development is about to change.
Maybe not in time to help this year but when you have guys who were supposed to be promising starters but have no room to pitch them thats how you develop a good pen.
Our starting rotation could eventually look like:
Santana (Till 2014)
Dickey (Till god knows when)
Niese
Harvey
Wheeler
That pushes guys like Pelfrey, Familia, Gee, Mejia and Beato to the pen.
Thats a pretty highly developed pen now isn’t it?
And it will be because we filled all the starters with very good talent making all that good pitching that has no role the excellent role players we need.
This buying bandaids and role players approach never works!
Fix the thing that gets you into the situation on a daily basis not what you think will solve that situation should it arise!
Pelfrey?
Well I mean he is out of a rotation spot…I doubt he would go to the pen more likely traded but first they have to resign him which I would say is unlikely.
This may have something to do with the Mets wanting to have experienced professionals on the roster. In addition to the bullpen, they seem to do this with the bench as well. They always speak about guys like Niewenhuis needing to be playing every day or down in AAA.
Many other teams will use their prospects and farm-hands as bench players and/or relievers. It gives them a taste of MLB and gives a manager some potential. Many of the younger throwers have live arms, and many of the younger positional players have speed, or raw power. We saw Valdespin do exactly that recently with a big HR in one game, and a big 2-RBI hit yesterday. Of course, there are strikeouts mixed in between, but that’s what you expect.
Instead, Mets management seems to have a desire to always have these journeymen pros in these roles, guys who smell like cologne and have beautiful golf bags. From Andres Torres and Vinny Rottino to Jon Rauch and DJ Carrasco. I think half of this is that the Mets feel that certain personalities are a risk in NY, and half that they are regularly fooled by the aforemention cologne.
I remember the winning days (the 80s), when guys like Kevin Mitchell and Lenny Dykstra were brought up very young and put right into utility and platoon roles respectively, and contributed. Lots of young live arms in the pen those days too. Randy Meyers, Roger McDowell.
Nice post Old Backstop. Notice that the manager who thived on using kids and melding them in with veterans has now done the same thing decades later in DC. Bryce Harper would be in St Lucie if he had been working for Sandy Alderson. Instead he got lucky and got to be drafted by the Nats and Davey Johnson convinced his open minded GM that he could play in the bigs. Is he ready, NOPE but just like these magical arms the Mets refuse to bring up are most probably better by far than Pelfrey, Young Gee etc, Harper is making people in DC want to go to games and he is proving that talent can succeed and win while learning in the bigs. Too bad we have the wrong GM who won’t listen to anybody or anything but his outdated thoughts.
No, he got lucky and was born with generational talent and caught the eye of Scott Boras, who black mailed the Nats into giving Harper a major league deal. That means Harper was on the 40 man roster immediately.
PATIENCE! This team is way more enjoyable to watch then in spring training. Home grown talent not retreads on the field in NY, 3 to 4 starters only a year away
relievers like Mejia, Edgin and Rosario on the way this year or next. Give Ike all the time he needs, sign Wright, the 2012 Mets are in a battle for respectablity and 2013 is a pennent race.
Sure its painfull at times but it’s not even close to the pain of Nolen Ryan and Mike Scott
pitching against us in the 86 playoffs and seeing Tom Seaver in the visiting dugout a week
later. PATIENCE!
Great article Jessep, appreciate the info despite the nay sayers concening FO.
I think letting go of Joe Smith was a blunder, he could have been that one RH pitcher you bring in to get a ground ball but he is pitching for the Indians now, not the team that drafted him.
His career GO/AO at 2.31 and consistency would have great for the long term health of this franchise, maybe SA can trade for him
The fact that the BP has been an issue was not lost on this FO in the off season but as many have stated you don’t know if you are getting a BP arm on the rise or on the fall but if you get one like Red did with Chapman,, though international signing, he has been consistent and you know what you get.
We were hurting for many years since Wagner got hurt, Duaner Sanchez decided he wanted some “mofongo” and got hurt and as stated here the lack of “in house” development of BP arms depending on the market which burned us with JJ, I still don’t know whom was looking at his medical records and could not see that he had physical issues.
What about billy Wagner
Bullpen guys become bullpen guys when they can’t develop a third pitch.
Heath Bell…