Well, you know my feelings about the Mets financially, that they will not get their financial house in order until the Wilpons get their financial mansion – Sterling Equities – in order. Though we disagree on that point, I think the attendance issue, while a major source of revenue no doubt, a drop in revenue generated by those dwindling numbers is offset by other holdings that the financial success of the New York Mets in both, the selling of television rights which goes to the ball club and the revenue generated by SNY (majority share owners being Sterling Equities).

If you scroll toward the bottom of the following article, it is stated that the $70 million loss the Mets hit in 2011 was more than offset by revenue generated by SNY – part of the Wilpons holdings – and the part they would not part with.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/sports/regional-sports-networks-show-teams-the-money.html?pagewanted=all

I have attached an article regarding the Cleveland Indians, whose attendance problems are worse than the Mets with their market value as far as broadcasting is concerned placing them in the lower third in baseball. Yet, the article indicates that the Indians are at least able to “sustain” themselves economically despite the low attendance and drop in revenue because of the television rights and it is hoped that a new agreement will enable them to re-invest more in the team. Thus if Cleveland can simply”sustain” itself, imagine what the Mets could do.

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2012/01/the_big_picture_is_tv_rights_m.html

Finally, attached is one more article, maybe repetitious like the other two, but important because it cites (as I think Sandy Alderson also alluded to in an interview as well) that the operating expenses of most teams are within the same ballpark of each other.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/story/2012-02-06/MLB-teams-using-lucrative-TV-deals-to-sign-talent/53032284/1

Hence, my contention that the Mets troubles are more related to the overall financial problems of Sterling Equities. If it was due primarily to the Madoff civil suit hanging over their heads then as I have already said, next year expect the Mets to suddenly find a “silver bullet” in their ability to start spending more. If it goes beyond that, then don’t expect the Mets to climb back into the obtaining of more expensive and better producing players for years to come.

The Mets generate the most publicity of the Wilpon holdings so it is understandable why so much attention is paid to Sandy Alderon’s role with the organization. I suspect the Wilpons have hired similar business and legal experts to downsize their other less publicized but lucrative holdings as well. If not, and all the cutbacks in spending were done in anticipation of the civil suit hanging over their heads and not their overall financial stability being on precarious footing, then it shows that maybe Fred and Jeff panicked too early. We have to hope that is the case so the Mets can compliment this group of potentially good players with others to fill in the missing links.

I say he will have failed if what someone gets paid two years from now is still an issue!
This year and next Reyes is making less than he made last year on a per year basis!

To say we couldn’t afford the commitment of that contract means your also saying we will not have our finances in order for the duration of that contract!

Truth is the not signing of reyes is not helping the long term finances any more than ramirez and francisco are he;lping the long term winning!

We are on a FANTASY baseball plan here…No Future exists just what we can get each year and hope the draft makes up for it!
And when it doesn’t we keep on just putting up yearly bandaids until fate steps in and makes a miracle!

Not the way to run a team if you ask me.

Fact is for the price of what we paid all those failed relievers we could have gotten a pretty good starter!
For that price we could have had reyes being a draw to entice attendance to fix the problem not just cover it up with frugality!

We are sweeping the problems nder the rug, painting over the crasks with paint hoping someone doesn’t notice and using the finances as an excuse yet doing nothing to fix the cause of those finances….

ATTENDANCE!

I don’t think that if the Mets do not turn a profit next year (or even the year after) that Sandy will be out the door for I think his job was more or less to get the house in order financially and doing that precludes making a profit first. The downsizing, as we know, has gone way beyond reducing the roster payroll as we have seen the resultant office workers losing jobs, a rooke team down in Florida disbandened and a financial consultant brought in.

My own thought is that once the franchise seems to have re-organized itself in what is perceived as a more efficient way ot doing business, Sandy’s job would be done and he might go back to the Commissioner’s office, seek out other work, or retire.

But there is a catch-22 for all this to work. Does the Mets continuing to lose revenue mean even more drastic cuts to the operating budget to account for those losses? How much more can they cut to offset the annual losses? My own guess is that after the cost-efficient reorganizing is complete, a magic bullet will be found in the form of television rights sold to SNY, SNY itself or some other finageling of the Sterling Equities ledger book that won’t be made public (obviously) to make the Mets suddenly profitable again.

Do you really think that the financial problems are going to carry you over as an excuse for the next 5 years?

Here is a newsflash! If they aren’t profitable by next year Sandy will be gone!
And since Madoff isn’t the issue Sandy had better find some way to put fannies in the seats!

We mostly agree more than disagree and even on those points, I appreciate very much the manner you present them, with no personal attacks – for as you know I’ve been the target of mockery quite often simply due to my opinions, which I think are valid though doesn’t mean they are written in stone, either.

Guess we will just have to wait and see till next season whether or not it was more the civil suit hanging over their heads rather than the scenarios I presented to determine why the financial moves were made these past two seasons. If the re-investment in some key elements that could really help the team begins again – and I don’t mean in terms of Omar but in terms of wise and prudent spending – then it was the uncertainty of the future due to Madoff as you suggest. There are many possibilities as we both attest to.

One clue we might see this year is what the Mets do this July with Santana and Wright, even if the team itself is not playing so well. If Santa is sent packing, or if negotiations are not at least beginning with David’s agent, that would open up a lot of questions.

But what makes me gravitate to the opposite direction you correctly state could be a possibility is because I still do not understand why the civil suit would cause the Mets to twice need loans to meet monthly operating costs. That is a sign of a business already not on solid footing – that it couldn’t even meet payroll with a loan. Sandy has stated the Mets have enough capital on their own to last through this year – but nothing said about 2013 and beyond. Yes, they had to downsize as much as possible to be ready to survive even the worst case scenario in that civil suit – but again, why would it come down to needing loans just to meet operational expenses for the month?

That’s why I feel the civil suit would have been the nail in the coffin and with that gone the Wilpons do not have to liquidate but still need to work on shoestring budgets for the immediate future. If I’m wrong, we’ll then see some more purse strings begin to open.

And I agree with you – whatever one thinks of Sandy in terms of baseball knowledge – what has been happening now has been dictated to him by the ownership and his hands are indeed tied. I think I’ve been mentioning that Sandy deserves a pass so far and have been criticizing his moves purely on a baseball level. I do doubt that under normal circumstances he would have sent KRod and Beltran packing the middle of last season. I’m glad you agree that with KRod it was purely business – and that the move in itself “sucked” but what could we have done.

Baseball is a business and many a move is made on that factor alone. Connie Mack twice dissolved his old championship-caliber Philadelphia A’s clubs because he needed the money so what we saw with KRod and Beltran last season and the cheap contracts had happened way before the age of free agency when owners had complete control of their players.

I’ll have what you’re having. Seems like some great stuff.

Your the one living in the fantasy world where everything bad that happens is becase we are broke and anything good that happens is because Sandy is a genius!

The Mets are not in financial crisis they are down in attendance and ctting All Stars off the roster isn’t helping or fixing that problem!

Maybe if you and Sandy could make a sentence containing the word PLAYOFFS in it without using the word FUTURE as well you might not have that attendance problem!

I believe that even if that civil suite was not hanging over their heads, the cash flow needed to infuse more capital into the team, whether it comes from the Mets directly or indirectly through other holdings belonging to Sterling Equities (i.e, real estate, etc.) isn’t there and that more could now be diverted (i.e., from SNY) to the corporation’s other holdings which are also in financial hot water. Don’t forget, the Wilpons are being hit from many sides. They lost a half billion to Madoff, suddenly lost the revenue they were getting via the Ponzi scheme and because of that, prior to the scandal becoming public, they accumulated a massive amount of debt which they suddenly don’t have at least a portion of the funds they counted on to pay it. And the real-estate market went bust.

So even without the civil suit, they were in deep trouble and I believe still are. Just as player contracts are not paid out in one year but over a course of many (and in the case of Bobby Bonilla, decades ) the Wilpons troubles stretch over a long course of time as well and did not start or end with the civil suit. Otherwise, I cannot understand the reason for the two loans to meet operating expenses, an indication that the Mets, like many struggling families, were already surviving on a week by week basis (with no civil suit yet to add to those troubles).

And with loans to pay back, even less revenue through ticket sales (crowds of 30,000 at lower ticket prices do not generate the gate receipts for the same amount of tickets sold at counted on original higher cost), the real-estate market still flat along with other reasons none of us are aware of, it appears the Mets are going to be operating on a shoe-string budget for quite a while. It’s just a matter that with the civil suit now settled, the Wilpons can now hang on instead of having to liquidate.

This, I believe, is more the reason for “rebuilding”. It’s really “downsizing” (understandable considering the circumstances) and why Sandy Alderson (who said he wasn’t originally interested in the position and applied only at the urging of Bud Selig) was hired – he is an astute business man and legal expert and, just like CRG, the executive type that the situation called for. The disagreement about him being on top of baseball personnel decisions is another issue that won’t be settled in this forum.

Now yes, the relievers brought in by Sandy last season didn’t pan out as planned, exception being Izzy and Byrdak who exceeded any expectations that could have been had for them, but the truth is we don’t know the extent of the team’s financial crisis. So yes, I am saying that it is possible that at the time they realistically couldn’t budget Takahashi and his $3.8 million salary while cutting the payroll roughly $12 million and needing to fill out the roster. If I have 4 holes to fill and $4 million to do it in (just using the fact that he brought the aforementioned 4 relievers for roughly $3.7 million) spending $3.8 million on Takahashi just doesn’t work. The remaining $200k wouldn’t even allow for three people making the league minimum, heck that doesn’t allow for even one player at the minimum. (I think the minimum is 480k right?) Carrying debt from a new, and expensive stadium, a high priced roster, I think we can agree that $120 million is a lot of money, coupled with the lower than expected performance for the expenditure, which leads to decreased revenues, and the possibility that you may be losing $1 billion in a lawsuit very well may have lead to pinching pennies. Again, not saying that’s why. I’m just allowing for the possibility.

Now, onto the spending in 2012 of $11.5 million on Rauch and Francisco. The payroll is down as a whole of almost $40 million. So even with the “splurge” on relievers the Wilpons are spending much less on this roster than in 2011. Not to mention, and yes we disagree on this I know from last time, the Madoff settlement has let the Wilpons know that they will only be paying $180 million out of the $1 billion suit. Again, yes they have other obligations, but I refuse to believe that news doesn’t allow for a better financial outlook ahead. the knowledge that you won’t have to spend $820 million is uplifting to say the least. I personally would feel a lot better if I had a loan consolidated and owed 82% less on it in my future. I’m going to go out on a limb and say the Wilpons do as well. Not saying it magically makes everything all better and they will be swimming in money like Uncle Scrooge McDuck, but it allows for a bit more to keep in the vault.

So yes, Takahashi would be cheaper this year rather than Francisco, but that’s not the point. If the timetable were sent back a year maybe Sandy keeps Takahashi in 2012 for the 2 yr/ $7 million contract. But 2011, and 2012 have different circumstances attached to them.

I already stated how I can’t find an argument against bringing back Izzy. The only possible reason is if they knew something about an injury, which obviously isn’t the case.

As far as Dessens I’ll again say that 29 other GMs didn’t even offer him a minor league deal. He’s not back in 2012 either, so I still give Sandy a pass. If there was any reason to believe he could contribute some team would have taken a shot. 30 teams, and as can be seen every year every team will need an extra guy in the bullpen either due to injury of ineffectiveness. If Dessens was capable of helping he’d have a contract somewhere.

I don’t support Sandy blindly. No one should. I look at everything he has done with the thought that the owners of the team are obviously looking to downsize on payroll. Maybe that’s what fans don’t want to hear. That baseball is a business and decisions are not purely based on wins and losses. Sandy has been the GM for two years and the payroll has dropped in the ballpark of $55 million. If he was allowed to reinvest that money into the team I’m sure that we could have gone after better players in free agency. However, this wasn’t the case. I doubt any GM would cut that much money unless forced to.

These seasons aren’t be sacrificed for payroll reduction and rebuilding because the GM thinks it’s the only way to do things. The payroll had to be cut, Sandy is doing what he can to field a competitive team given the financial constraints. Try improving anything while cutting more than a third of your funding, it’s not something that’s going to be easy.

Could we have done better? It’s possible. But if you don’t think the directive is coming from the Wilpons to make these cash saving moves I think we’re not taking a fey element into consideration. I feel like there is a whole group of people that seem to think this is a black and white situation. It’s not, to me at least. I believe that Sandy is doing the best he feels he can with the situation he is in. That’s all.

Good point all around.

Since we are talking in terms of short-term relief to fill roster spots in the “re-building” process and because the Mets are strapped for cash, Sandy wasn’t interested in a two year commitment to either Takahashi and Feliciano yet he did so with Carasco. Even though D.J. was cheaper, it proved to be a waste of whatever little money the Mets did have. If the situation was so bad that the Mets couldn’t afford the extra less than $3 million it would have cost to retain either Takahashi (since they were concerned with the innings pitched by Pedro) it’s a sign that their financial situation was in dire straits.

Then Sandy signed Franciscco for $12 million over two years while Takahashi is on the second year of a $8 million deal with the Angeles. $4 million less for a pitcher I think all fans would have been more comfortable with.

In total, over $12 million has been spent this year on Rauch, Valedez and Francisco while Takahashi would have cost $4.2 million and Issy for $650K (a combined million dollars less than what Francisco is getting). Since he is looking for the short term, age would not be an issue for fill ins that still can pitch effectively.

Sandy took a chance by signing a much older Issy who in 2010 pitched all of five innings in the minor leagues for the Reds organization so could not the same low-risk chance have been taken with Elmer who pitched decently enough to at least earn it? Instead, he dumped both.

Whether these decisions on who to sign and who to release were made by Sandy and DePodesta based on “money ball”, “computer analysis” “traditional” methodology or a combination of all three, the Met front office did not do well with the cash it was willing to spend and as we have noted, could have done better.

The same holds true for most of those at the major league level both have brought in the past 18 months or so. Whatever problems we had after 2010, our bullpen and bench were not the most alarming and that is now the case.

If the seasons between 2011 and let’s say 2014 were to be sacrificed for the sake of rebuilding and payroll reduction, the question does remain: could we have done better or did we simply throw those seasons away to save whatever cash we could?

This is something that supporters of Sandy must loo

Let’s also throw on to that the he’s from CA, and turned down a larger contract from the Marlins to play there.

But you’re right, in your fantasy world when the Mets come calling people can’t help but sign. Especially if you throw enough money at them, right? Cause you know, flush with cash this team is.

Face reality Metsie, it wasn’t a feasible option. Also, for someone who hates talking the shoulda woulda coulda, which is exactly what you said last time we discussed a topic, it’s all you do. Be realistic, if you can that is.

Johan Santana is healthy, how’s attendance doing with him?

Also you’re being ridiculous. You’re living in a pretend world where the Mets were not in financial crisis this winter. It doesn’t matter when Wilson’s money would come. They couldn’t commit to long term deals like that even if they wanted to. They were being sued for $1 billion in case you forget.

You’re embarrassing yourself if you think the Mets could have gotten Wilson and if you think he would have chosen the Mets over Texas or LAA.

Come back to us when you’re ready to talk in reality. The Mets signing CJ Wilson sounds nice if this was MLB 2k12.

They spent how much on bullpen that doesn’t stop anyone didn’t they?
Most of CJ wilson’s money comes in late years!
So committing to a CJ Wilson deal does not impact what we spent on this season as much as you two try to make it out to be!
Maybe if they got him Attendance wouldn’t be down this year and they wouldn’t be as broke as you think!

But keep on making excuses….Case thats what guys who don’t have solutions do to when they fail!
Make Excuses for it!

As far as Dessens is concerned the fact that he was not even with an organization, or at least was signed midseason by any team who may have needed bullpen help, allows for me to give Alderson a pass. If someone thought he was still a big league pitcher he would have had a shot somewhere, one would assume anyway.

There is no defending Isringhausen being let go. He had a decent enough 2011, was a great influence on the young guys, and was only looking for a one year deal. Not to mention that the contract he signed with the Angels was dirt cheap. Shame on Sandy as it made sense for the club financially and in field production as well as would have be a fan friendly move. Not saying that any team should base roster decisions on fan wants/demands, but isn’t it nice if you like what your team does?

With Feliciano you can say the shoulder wasn’t a concern, but I do remember his workload being brought up an awful lot and I think that factored into what the Mets offered. Whether or not that was the reasoning in actuality it has worked out in the team’s favor. Taking that out of the equation though, I already discussed the money issue with my statement on Takahashi.

And yes, obviously K-Rod was strictly a money deal. He may have made every appearance an adventure, but he got the job done. And obviously it was to the detriment of the on field product. The contract just couldn’t fit with the financial outlook for the team. Just how it is, it sucks but it had to be done.

The Mets haven’t done a good job of developing big league pitchers. In the past decade or so here are some guys I can remember from the Mets farm getting in the MLB: Jae Wong Seo, Grant Robets, Billy Traber, Dickey Gonzalez, Tyler Yates, Heath Bell, Aaron Heilman, Pedro Feliciano, Dan Wheeler, Brian Bannister, John Maine, Phil Humber, Scott Kazmir, Joe Smith, Jason Vargas, Niese, Pelfrey, Parnell, and Gee. I think we can agree that a) when Bell, Vargas, and Wheeler were traded they really hadn’t shown anything here to indicate their future successes, b) we lost out on Kazmir’s run for Zambrano…ugh, c) Humber brought Santana and perfect game aside hasn’t really done too much else to be upset over d) Joe Smith has kept doing what he did here and been successful, he was part of the Putz deal though so can’t blame that, e) we got any usefulness that Feliciano and Heilman had to offer, f) this isn’t exactly a stunning list of development from the Mets organization either in relief or starting.