5
2012
System Failure: No End In Sight For Mets Bullpen Implosions
An article by 72MetsFan
In eleven save opportunities, the Mets bullpen now has five blown saves. That’s not a typo – Five blown saves to go with six saves for the season so far.
Every time that bullpen gate opens, no matter who emerges from it, the odds that they will protect any size lead is a little bit better than 50/50.
A revamped bullpen you say?
The Mets saw fit to expend 75% of their available $14 million dollar offseason budget on relievers Ramon Ramirez, Jon Rauch and of course the big enchilada – Frank Francisco. The problem is they have provide no relief and mostly grief.
“We’re down there to eat innings, to come into situations and get guys out and preserve leads,” Jon Rauch said after another blown save last night. “We just haven’t done it well.”
Yes Jon, we agree.
Last season the bullpen went downhill fast after the team decided to trade Francisco Rodriguez, but so far this season it’s ben even worse and it has become the team’s death knell.
Going into today’s game, the Mets bullpen has the fourth worst ERA in baseball at 4.95, and according to the NY Post, Mets relievers are 1-3 with a 8.64 ERA over their past seven games.
The biggest problem is the alarming amount of walks Mets relievers have been dishing out. In 83 innings of relief, the Mets have allowed 43 walks and 91 hits while striking out 71. They have the worst OPS allowed in the league, a horrifying .774 on-base plus slugging. Their 1.58 WHIP is the second worst mark in the league.
They cant seem to hold runners on either, and have the third worst caught stealing percentage in the league at 17%.
It’s only May 5th.
Usually, our bullpen used to do a pretty decent job for the Mets all the way through the first half. But now they’ve reached the Suck Level after barely a month into the season.
This might end up being the worst bullpen we’ve had in decades unless things get turned around in a real hurry. I don’t recall it ever being this bad, this early in a long, long time.
About the Author: Drew Staley
On June 1, 2012 Johan Santana officially became my favorite current Met! I'm a Queens native who grew up in the shadows of Big Shea. I was a huge Ron Darling, Dave Magadan and John Olerud fan. Honored to be a part of such a great site for Mets fans. Ya Gotta Believe!
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 25 | 18 | .581 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 21 | .523 | 2.5 |
| Phillies | 21 | 23 | .477 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 17 | 24 | .415 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 12 | 32 | .273 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/19/2013
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I think it’s “No End In Sight” not “Site”
Yeah let’s spend 75% of 14 million on a bullpen instead of SP and catching, never mind that SP and catching were 2 of the Mets most important needs this offseason. I mean a successful battery is only the life blood of baseball team. But Sandy, the Harvard grad decides to use the money on a bullpen and talk about OBP – 2 things that are LESS important than the first 2 I mentioned.
Real Smart.
How dare you sir, you are totally out of bounds
It’s not Sandy’s fault this bullpen sucks!
C’mon Bro, he didnt go in Half-Cocked after losing Reyes to the Marlins and sign “2″ Blue Jay cast-off’s for 8 mil to be the anchors of this bullpen.
Did He??? o_O
Lets just blame it on Omar Minaya like Sandy supporters always do, its his fault somehow…
By the way Omar did a terrible job with our Minor league system…One year and Sandy turned everything around this team is full of homegrowns that he……..draaaafted?!?!? (Disclaimer: Dont verify that last comment)
It actually is real smart.
If they had spent less on the bullpen, what would they have done? How much less? Less than both Rauch and Francisco? Keep in mind this team had Parnell, Acosta, Byrdak as their bullpen. So how do you fill it is? This by the way goes back to the proof that Omar didn’t stock the minors all too well. You shouldn’t HAVE to buy a bullpen every year. However, they were in that position so they did it.
You’re acting like they spent 17 million on 1 reliever who is struggling. Ramirez-Rauch-Francisco aren’t that expensive in the grand scheme of things. In reality, the Mets are probably getting what they paid for.
The Marlins have 6 blown saves, are you going to then tell me that Heath Bell was a bad decision by them?
Who was out of the rotation if they spent that $ on the rotation? You know it wasn’t gonna be Pelfrey, so that means Gee was out.
As for catcher, who was being spent on? Thole isn’t having a bad year so was there really a need to spend $ on upgrading him?
Also worth noting, the “blown save” stat is a little misleading. For example, Byrdak came into the 8th inning with the bases loaded with a 4-0 lead and gave up a GS to Helton.
That was a blown save. But, in terms of evaluating the Mets bullpen in terms of “save opps” it is a little misleading.
Rauch last night came into the game in the 8th with the 2 on base and the tying run on 1st. Goldschmidt doubles, tie game, blown save.
I’m not excusing them, I’m merely pointing out that “blown saves” may not be the best way to measure success or failure of the pen. Because it only tells half the story.
For me, this bullpen is good enough they are just under performing. That doesn’t mean I’m going to suggest getting them was a bad idea, because frankly I am not sure what the alternative was and if that was a better idea.
When I measure a bullpens success/fail though, I do not look at blown saves. I look at Inherited runners versus Inherited runners scored (among other things)
The Mets have allowed 19 of 47 inherited runners to score. That’s about 6 runners too much if they want to be AVERAGE.
To give you an example (for my friends who think I root for atlanta), the Braves have inherited 33 runners and allowed 8 to score.
Miami has inherited 39, and allowed 10 to score.
Philly is actually in worse shape bullpen wise. Inherited 19 runners (thanks Halladay, Lee, Hamels) and letting 8 score.
But even as good as Atlanta is, no team in the east has been better than Washington.
Inheriting 24 runners and letting just 4 score.
Those #s do not tell you everything, but they tell you more than blown saves
Bullpen’s are probably the easiest positions to fix. Look at the Dbacks. Just two years ago they had the worst bullpen in the majors, now they have a solid bullpen, and their key guys, Putz and Hernandez, were acquired from outside the organization. Also look at the Rays, who seem to go with a different closer almost every season!
So, don’t put this on Minaya, because you see teams all the time fix their bullpens with FA’s and trades.
Vinny, I think I said a lot more than just something with regards to Omar.
I think I actually agreed the bullpen has failed, but I just think they are better than they have pitched. I just find there is a different way to evaluate them than blown saves
The Dbacks also got 2 of their major bullpen arms in deals that sent Mark Reynolds away and major prospects for Trevor Cahill.
I’m not saying its not a solid way to go about things, I’m just saying the Mets may not have a Mark Reynolds they can deal right now that somebody overvalues.
I’m just pointing out that bullpens can be fixed with FA’s and trades. You see teams do it all the time.
It’s still really early, so it’s still possible the bullpen can find a way to turn it around, but if they don’t, it would be the current GM’s fault for not doing a good job fixing the bullpen, not the previous GM’s fault.
Probably be both but yes if Ramirez, Rauch, Francisco keep this trend then SA is to blame
The problem is a lot of teams do develop arms that can be strong bullpen arms. The Mets have not. Parnell is it really.
I mean consider this Vinny ok
Since 2001, the Mets have probably had 3 young-ish arms that were solid for more than 1 year and either came from their system or early trades.
Parnell, Heilman, Feliciano.
That’s not very good for 11 years. And in today’s MLB, teams are developing bullpen arms more frequently because they have seen its not a spot to spend a ton of $ on.
I said since the beginning of the year that you would see a lot of turnover in the pen this year (transition). The guys signed fit into the category of stop gaps until the potential replacements in the system pushed their way up.
thankfully, it seems that there actually could be some good ones coming soon. Would certainly be nice to see a pen with a lot of young live power arms, and not just old retreads (the kind that seem to fill out just about every pen). The important part is, the retreads need to be the spare parts, not the key late guys.
Why do we always have to go back so far in time when we talk about this years team? It’s always 11 years, 20 years, ect. What the Mets did 11 years ago is irrelevant to this years team.
My point is that you don’t HAVE to develop a lot of bullpen arms to have a good bullpen. The Rays are a great example. In the last 5 years they have had 5 different closers, and four of them came from outside the organization – Rodney, Farnsworth, Soriano, and Percival….And other arms like Beniot, Cruz, Peralta, Qualls, Choate, and Balfour.
Classic post.. It takes someone totally brainwashed to have the nerve to explain and defend and even be proud of the rotten moves made by Alderson to make a weak bullpen a total joke. Congrats to jessep for proving the posters before right!!!!
Amazin…. I’m not sure how me saying Inherited runners scoring is a better judge of showing how bad the Mets pen has been is me being brainwashed?
I didn’t disagree on the premise that they have under performed.
However, I’d love to know what the alternative was? If there were no arms ready in the system to take the spots occupied by Ramirez, Rauch, Francisco then what did you want SA to do exactly?
You had Parnell, Acosta, Byrdak. Which means they need at minimum 3 more, but probably 4 more pitchers. Nobody from the system was coming up, which means you have to spend $ to go get a new backend of the bullpen. 1 guy ain’t gonna solve the problems.
Rather than spending 17.5 million on KRod, SA spent less than that and got 3 relievers. All of which have a history of being better than they have. Heath Bell has been terrible all year for Miami, does that mean Bell was a bad move? If Bell was a bad move, then I’m not sure what else there is to discuss
Or you could spend $$$ on starters that would make the need for Familia to become a great starter reduced and give us an option to put a pretty good pitcher in the pen if he could not beat ot the good starters we have.
As for judging relievers the amont of inherited runs scored and era is not a good barometer,
The best judge of a reliever is to look at how many batters he faces above his minimum!
The closer to the minimum the better!
Ramirez 45.6 PA potential minimum (15.2 Innings * 3), 70.6 Actual (Minimum + H + BB)
He has a 1.5 Above minimum metric which translates to:
For every Out he gets he faces an extra half a batter, per inning he faces 4.5 batters!
Thats a horrible number for a reliever! it shows 1.5 baserunners per inning!
Compare it to the crrent save leader C Perez.
33.6 potential Minimum 46.6 Actual means a 1.3 Above Minimum metric,
For every ot he faces and extra third of a batter, and 3.9 batters per inning. So in most innings he will not allow a baserunner.
It’s a very small scale but is opne of the best metrics to use to judge jst how effective a reliever is at doing his job!
Better than ERA, Better than Whip which are all developed to judge Starters who go way more than an inning a game.
Alternative 1 Sign CJ Wilson send Gee to the pen immediate Upgrade of both the starting rotation and the bullpen with Gee compared to Bautista and Acosta!
And yo would have the guy to replace pelfrey right now so you didn’t have to weaken a weak pen by using Bautista as a starter!
What makes you think the Angels would trade CJ Wilson to the Mets and who would they want in return?
Yeah, because it’s just that easy.
He said to sign C.J Wilson, not trade for him.
thanks Vinny, saved me some trouble having to respond to the reading challenged!
Welcome to Fantasy Island………
why are we pretending the Mets had the financial stability this winter to justify a 5 year 77 million dollar signing of a 31 year old pitcher?
why are we pretending we had to pay all 77 Million this year?
How much does Wilson get per year?
4 or 5 Mil more than Francisco?
Do you really think that the financial problems are going to carry you over as an excuse for the next 5 years?
Here is a newsflash! If they aren’t profitable by next year Sandy will be gone!
And since Madoff isn’t the issue Sandy had better find some way to put fannies in the seats!
You realize there was no way the Wilpons were going to spend the kind of money it would have taken to bring in CJ Wilson in the offseason, right? Let’s be real, the team was cutting payroll as they are attempting to get their finances in order. Yes, he is only making $10 million this year, but it’s a backloaded deal. He’ll be making $20 million in the last year of it. Those backloaded contracts may make today appealing, but it will hamper the future of the team. He’ll be 36 the last year of the contract. For a pitcher, that’s not an age where I want to be spending $20 million. You figure at that age his skills will be in decline. Coupled with the cost trading him would be very difficult if not impossible.
What it really comes down to is that the Mets are not in a win now mode. They’re not going to be signing big ticket guys. The point right now is to see what the young kids can do, and move forward from there. If people like Duda, Murphy, Davis, Tejada, Nieuwenhuis, Gee, Parnell, etc show that they can be solid contributors consistently on the major league level it give the team a core to build on. Hopefully, they show they belong, and coupled with the Wilpons. hopefully, having the ability to spend more money on the team real improvements can be made. Right now they’re just looking to fill out the roster without long term contractual commitments. Sure, the results may not be great, but you get what you pay for.
And yes, Francisco, Ramirez, and Rauch are not top tier relievers. However, they also are not this bad unless they’ve just totally lost it over the offseason. The team spent $14 million to fill out holes where the organization felt they had no one ready to step up to the major league level and contribute. No reason to rush guys and stunt their development. No reason to bring in high priced free agents to fill out one roster spot when they have limited finances and a multitude of holes to fill.
exactly Sane Mets Fan. Lets not jump into a fantasy world and act like the Mets could have even sniffed the contract offer Wilson got from LAA. It’s not even worth discussing to be honest. I’m not sure why people are choosing to forget the winter and financial problems
He only make 10 and 11 Mil the next two years and we spent more than that on useless crap!
Excuses and then more excuses!
They spent how much on bullpen that doesn’t stop anyone didn’t they?
Most of CJ wilson’s money comes in late years!
So committing to a CJ Wilson deal does not impact what we spent on this season as much as you two try to make it out to be!
Maybe if they got him Attendance wouldn’t be down this year and they wouldn’t be as broke as you think!
But keep on making excuses….Case thats what guys who don’t have solutions do to when they fail!
Make Excuses for it!
You are trying to tell me attendance would go up if the Mets signed CJ Wilson?
Johan Santana is healthy, how’s attendance doing with him?
Also you’re being ridiculous. You’re living in a pretend world where the Mets were not in financial crisis this winter. It doesn’t matter when Wilson’s money would come. They couldn’t commit to long term deals like that even if they wanted to. They were being sued for $1 billion in case you forget.
You’re embarrassing yourself if you think the Mets could have gotten Wilson and if you think he would have chosen the Mets over Texas or LAA.
Come back to us when you’re ready to talk in reality. The Mets signing CJ Wilson sounds nice if this was MLB 2k12.
Yes, losing that civil suit even at a decision of a half billion dollars would have been the end for the Wilpons.
I believe that even if that civil suite was not hanging over their heads, the cash flow needed to infuse more capital into the team, whether it comes from the Mets directly or indirectly through other holdings belonging to Sterling Equities (i.e, real estate, etc.) isn’t there and that more could now be diverted (i.e., from SNY) to the corporation’s other holdings which are also in financial hot water. Don’t forget, the Wilpons are being hit from many sides. They lost a half billion to Madoff, suddenly lost the revenue they were getting via the Ponzi scheme and because of that, prior to the scandal becoming public, they accumulated a massive amount of debt which they suddenly don’t have at least a portion of the funds they counted on to pay it. And the real-estate market went bust.
So even without the civil suit, they were in deep trouble and I believe still are. Just as player contracts are not paid out in one year but over a course of many (and in the case of Bobby Bonilla, decades
) the Wilpons troubles stretch over a long course of time as well and did not start or end with the civil suit. Otherwise, I cannot understand the reason for the two loans to meet operating expenses, an indication that the Mets, like many struggling families, were already surviving on a week by week basis (with no civil suit yet to add to those troubles).
And with loans to pay back, even less revenue through ticket sales (crowds of 30,000 at lower ticket prices do not generate the gate receipts for the same amount of tickets sold at counted on original higher cost), the real-estate market still flat along with other reasons none of us are aware of, it appears the Mets are going to be operating on a shoe-string budget for quite a while. It’s just a matter that with the civil suit now settled, the Wilpons can now hang on instead of having to liquidate.
This, I believe, is more the reason for “rebuilding”. It’s really “downsizing” (understandable considering the circumstances) and why Sandy Alderson (who said he wasn’t originally interested in the position and applied only at the urging of Bud Selig) was hired – he is an astute business man and legal expert and, just like CRG, the executive type that the situation called for. The disagreement about him being on top of baseball personnel decisions is another issue that won’t be settled in this forum.
yep I’m telling you that!!
Your the one living in the fantasy world where everything bad that happens is becase we are broke and anything good that happens is because Sandy is a genius!
The Mets are not in financial crisis they are down in attendance and ctting All Stars off the roster isn’t helping or fixing that problem!
Maybe if you and Sandy could make a sentence containing the word PLAYOFFS in it without using the word FUTURE as well you might not have that attendance problem!
So, I hope you realize I directly addressed the contract of CJ Wilson Metsie.
Let’s also throw on to that the he’s from CA, and turned down a larger contract from the Marlins to play there.
But you’re right, in your fantasy world when the Mets come calling people can’t help but sign. Especially if you throw enough money at them, right? Cause you know, flush with cash this team is.
Face reality Metsie, it wasn’t a feasible option. Also, for someone who hates talking the shoulda woulda coulda, which is exactly what you said last time we discussed a topic, it’s all you do. Be realistic, if you can that is.
He chose the Angels because they went after and eventually signed Pujols!
There was a whole piece on it in ESPN Magazine!
Of course that’s the only reason Metsie. The Mets were a close 2nd.
I’ll have what you’re having. Seems like some great stuff.
Yep too bad I’m not having anything you drank it all when you got here and proclaimed yourself sane!
Only an insane person claims his sanity!
Classic post – takes someone with no reading comprehensive to come to argue, and make inaccurate assumptions based on blind hate.
Sandy’s signings…not so good! The answer may be R.A. Dickey. He is wonderful his first two trips through an opponants batting order. As pros hitters adjust and are ready for him late in the game. Why not let Dickey pitch the last three innings twice or three times a week? Hoyt Wilhelm had some success. Johan, Gee and Niese just don’t go deep in games. R.A. could actually close out games. No need for four relief pitichers every night perhaps the pen might be better if not needed every night.
Yes, this would further weaken out starting pitching. We would need another designated forfieter. Hey you can’t win them all…at least we’d have a chance in 3 of 5.
BPs are such a crap shoot, for the most part.
That money we spent on the ’07 and ’08 BP certainly didn’t get us anywhere either.
Oh stop the Sandy Alderson excuse making will you? That’s all you’re doing. That guy could walk on water as far as your concerned, you’re so full of it.
Wrong, again. But thanks for playing.
You two crack me up when you go at it. lol
Well, at least I’m ‘polite’ when I disagree – as Bayonne describes it.
I guess going after me in the shoutbox with his disgusting comments somehow leads him to believe he’s not violating commenting policy here just b/c he doesn’t post the same in these threads.
And personally, since he can’t stand me, I don’t know why he bothers to respond to anything I comment on. I certainly don’t bother responding to any of his comments.
Wouldn’t that be the smart way to deal with it?
What a clown, the same guy that defended Omar for the awful bullpen in 07 and 08, that he made worse and not better, but ALWAYS blamed Wright for not making dramatic comeback walk off wins every time the bullpen blew the game in those years. Bullpen was blowing games at a record base, the guy did nothing, but this clown defended him and blamed everyone except the guilty party.
Now sings and new tune, puts words in peoples mouths, what a surprise that is.
You’re right, they are a crap shoot. That’s why you shouldn’t spend 75% of your total cash available on what can only be described as marginal relievers at best, and in the case of Rauch coming off the worst season in his career.
Specifically with bullpens, they are a real crapshoot. There is enough turnover in most bullpens to keep your head spinning for awhile. Yes, you have guys who are dependable and excel year after year. More often than not though you’ll see a flash in the pan guy who may have a good season only to fall apart the next. Bullpens are for some reason extremely volatile and hard to predict. Bullpens are notorious for having people who sign a money deal and fall apart and scrap heap players putting up decent numbers out of nowhere. As really all of baseball is.
You know what bothers me the most about the focus on the relievers in the offseason, and oddly enough it isn’t thier lack of performance…
It has to do with the fact even if they were all pitching great none of them would be here next year with the exception of Francisco!
So even if we loved what they were doing our chances of keeping them past October would have been pretty much NIL!
Just as Capuano was a bandaid we had no intention of keeping, We focused all the money and effort in getting bandaids for this year and did nothing to build the team to improve it for this year AND next!
Sure we have no commitments but then again we also have not filled any of the holes we have had the past two years and with attrition those holes will keep on building up!
Well, what you are preaching is to build a farm system (not just through the draft) full of capable arms. I don’t think you’ll find people disagreeing with you.
But, I will say… I disagree with your stance that if they do good this year, they won’t be here. Byrdak was a 1 year deal.
No what I’m preaching is to get someone to hold you until that farm is ready, not just have a Guest Bullpen making a cameo every year but someone who bridges the gap until you have drafted!
The reason these guys are all signed to one year deals is because they know who they are choosing from really isn’t very good, if they were they WOULD sign them to a two or three year deal!
And truth is we wold be better off with a starter who cold reduce the bullpen arms needed instead of the gaggle of BP arms who are doing more to burn out the pen than the Starters are!
Okay. So you want them to trade for young bullpen arms
A lot of the young bullpen arms playing in 2012 were acquired for solid big league talent. Not necessarily superstars but you gotta give to get in MLB trades.
I’d love a young bullpen brought through the system but if its not here, what do you want them to do?
And again signing a starter that makes the bullpen less valuable is a nice idea but possible, I don’t think it was…
Actually jessup if they just stepped up a level on the gys they signed and signed them for two years instead of one we would be fine!
My personal belief is you do not DEVELOP Relievers! Waste of time and energy!
You stock your starting 5 with the best you can get, Any kid that you draft that can’t crack that rotation gets sent to the pen!
So the first step is to make the starters as good as you can draft/FA/Trades whatever it takes.
And then once you have it anyone who spends a year in AAA but can’t make it as a starter gets a year in the MLB as a reliever!
That solves the problem of having to trade and sign Relievers because every year there are guys who you drafted 4 or 5 years ago that if they can’t start are this year’s pen!
And if not them themselves then trade them for someone who is!
You’re only talking about Rauch though. Ramirez is an arbitration deal acquired through trade… so why worry about contract length.
You do not develop arms to be solely bullpen arms. You develop arms and players fall where they may.
Boggs (STL), Motte (STL), McClellan (STL), Salas (STL), Wilson (SF), Romo (SF), Madson (PHI), Feliz (TEX), Francisco (TEX), Ogando (TEX)
All were on World Series competiting teams, all young bullpen arms either homegrown or acquired at a young age and developed.
You do not need to INVEST in big time bullpen prospects. You just need to have capable arms. If the Mets had no money this year and had to fill the pen up from within, who would be in the pen? It’d be ugly.
If you don’t have the farm hands to fill in for 2-4 years in the pen, then you have to go buy. If you must go buy, you should buy cheaper because hopefully you can develop younger arms to take over. Bullpen arms are a crapshoot because the players come and go so frequently.
Rauch Byrdak Maybe if they didn’t look for guys who were trying to get their career’s as a closer back and went for the next level gy who could insist on a 3 year deal they might have gotten better talent!
And I’ll say it again none of those guys were drafted or developed for the express purpose of being a reliever!
Thats just where they wound up because they were not any good at beinbg a starter!
Metsie, we’re not disagreeing on the fact pitchers are developed to be middle relievers. In rare cases their path is chosen for that early. But what I am saying is, when you have a slew of arms in your system it gives you the chance to turn some guys who don’t have “starter stuff” into quality bullpen arms.
The Mets have/had limited arms come out of their system and VERY limited amounts of guys who can be bullpen arms
If you’re saying the bullpen is not a spot to spend a lot of money on (I agree), then the answer should be development. If half your pen is young and developed within, it allows you to spend in other more vital areas. But if you do not have that luxury than you have to go out and spend (see Mets)
Well I think the point I’m trying to make here is it doesn’t really matter how many arms you have in the system, what is key is how many Arms you have on yor MLB starting rotation because that is what determines the system arm’s ultimate fate!
Why does our system seem so devoid of Arms? Well every arm in there seems to be destined to have to fill a rotation spot! Most of the arms in the last 8 years have made it to the rotation if they made the MLB at all!
Jst for a second imagine we had a starting rotation as good as the Braves had in the 90′s. And had it since 2000. Would Pelfrey be a starter right now or would he more likely have been made a pen arm due to no room in the rotation? Let imagine he broke in as the 5th starter, where does the other 5th starter go? Trade maybe or maybe he becomes a reliever!
Gee would probably be a reliever right now if we had Capano, Young or someone better in the rotation.
SO if you ask me the way to improving your pen is not to develop pen arms (though developing good pitchers is one part of it) but to make the starting 5 the best they can be, reducing the need for relievers and putting anyone you do develop who can’t break into that rotation into the pen!
Call it trickle down development if you want. You fix the hardest part to fix and use the gys who can’t hack it at that role into the lesser role of reliever!
It makes a ton more sense to sign a starter to a multiyear deal than a reliever. Closer is about the only reliever role where signing someone makes sense merely because of the rareity and specialized personality required to be effective in that role.
But the rest shold be populated with the guys you drafted that do not have what it takes to be a starter or can beat the starters you have. And if you have pretty good starters you will find those gys who can’t cut it there are going to be DAMN good relievers!
You develop and fill from the top down and those who get knocked off the top get used in the lesser role!
Signing band aids is the wrong way to go, They aren’t very good (if they were they would get a better longer deal) and even if you hit the Jackpot one year your back at square one the following year when they go FA and demand the money they couldn’t demand when you got them on a band aid contract.
.
I think your habits of disagreeing with me are getting the best of you.
Your entire point is aligned with mine. You do not develop a guy to be a 7th inning pitcher. You develop arms, arms, arms. The problem the Mets have had is that really other than Pelfrey, Niese, Gee, Feliciano, Heilman… they haven’t been successful at developing arms and if those guys are a measure of success then that is a problem.
HOWEVER
you cannot fault SA for signing guys to the pen on short term deals if there was no alternative. It’s not like he signed Ramirez, Rauch, Francisco which took jobs away from young players who could have done just as well.
If you do not have the arms, then you have to go buy your pen. Ideally, you do not want to remake your bullpen every year. That solution comes from within, not by signing long term deals with relievers.
But until you have the luxury of being comfortable with your supply of minor league pitchers, you really do not have an alternative to signing guys like Rauch, Francisco etc.
No the difference is yo say develop pen arms and I say develop, by and trade for starters leaving the bullpen for whatever doesn’t beat out the starting rotation…
BIG difference of focus!
I’m focused on improving the Rotation not the pen!
Your focused on improving the pen!
My way the guys who get knocked out of rotation become pen, Your way you just promote guys to the pen without fixing the part of the team that can avoid using the pen in the first place!
Metsie, I think your obsession with arguing with me is getting the best of you. I don’t know how many times I have to say you do not develop arms to be specific bullpen arms. You just develop arms. The problem is the Mets haven’t done that.
I’m saying you develop a slew of arms. Rotation and Bullpen. The problem is, the Mets have done neither.
What needs to happen now is development. The Mets have some high profile arms on the farm. Harvey, Familia, Wheeler, Mejia are the future hopes of the organization. Outside of them most reports will agree that other pitching prospects can/may be productive, but have some perceived flaw/s that keeps them from being blue chippers. The point is prospects are needed to be developed. Say it how you want, but the Mets need to develop effective pitchers. Starters or relievers is a moot point. Pitching, pitching, pitching, who cares how they get it. If Eddie Kunz turned out to be an all star closer you wouldn’t have complained about the Mets drafting and trying to develop someone who isn’t a starter. They just need to better evaluate talent so they can find more arms who can produce at the major league level.
The Mets haven’t done a good job of developing big league pitchers. In the past decade or so here are some guys I can remember from the Mets farm getting in the MLB: Jae Wong Seo, Grant Robets, Billy Traber, Dickey Gonzalez, Tyler Yates, Heath Bell, Aaron Heilman, Pedro Feliciano, Dan Wheeler, Brian Bannister, John Maine, Phil Humber, Scott Kazmir, Joe Smith, Jason Vargas, Niese, Pelfrey, Parnell, and Gee. I think we can agree that a) when Bell, Vargas, and Wheeler were traded they really hadn’t shown anything here to indicate their future successes, b) we lost out on Kazmir’s run for Zambrano…ugh, c) Humber brought Santana and perfect game aside hasn’t really done too much else to be upset over d) Joe Smith has kept doing what he did here and been successful, he was part of the Putz deal though so can’t blame that, e) we got any usefulness that Feliciano and Heilman had to offer, f) this isn’t exactly a stunning list of development from the Mets organization either in relief or starting.
Also, let’s be honest. Spending money does not exactly mean success will follow. Remeber the Mets going all in with Roberto Alomar, Mo Vaughn, and the second coming of Jeromy Burnitz? That wasn’t the best of years if I recall. How about that Jason Bay contract? The Angels and Marlins spent a ton of money this offseason, it’s not exactly going well.
Keep in mind I’m not saying don’t spend money, just that there are no guarantees even is money is spent.
Why not a starter? Going into the season the rotation was already full. Simple as that. At least in the front office’s thinking. Santana, Dickey, Niese are obviously locks, even though you should have had someone waiting in case Santana had some bumps in his return. Pelfrey was going to be in the rotation, that whole potential thing coupled with his contract. Gee had some success last year, though obviously the second half of the season wasn’t nearly as kind to him (which can easily be chalked up to an increased workload or not making adjustments quick enough). Either way he showed enough where he deserves a chance to see if he can stick in the rotation. With that in mind anyone they bring in is merely just going to be an extra piece type who either is a borderline major leaguer or a long reliever who can be stretched to start in a pinch. So, pretty much we probably would have brought in another Batista/Carrasco type. The other option would be someone working off an injury, like Chris Young. The idea being that a) the rotation is already under contract and b) with limited financial resources the team isn’t going to spend money on anyone who would make more of an impact than anyone already signed while there are other holes that also need to be filled. Keep in mind that starting pitching isn’t exactly a cheap option if you want a dependable, proven guy rather than someone with flaws and hoping to catch lightning in a bottle.
Yes, Metsi.
The Mets were not in the business to compete last year, this year or the following few seasons. Their plans are to rebuild and not improve the holes that they have now with players who could actually help the team now but also tie them down for many a year. That’s why our bullpen was dismantled after 2010, restocked in 2011 and then dismantled all over again. It’s for the sake of filling roster spots until the kids are ready to slowly take over.
The Atlanta Braves were able to win all those division titles by doing both at the same time but it could be correctly argued that even though Atlanta never had the financial resources that the Mets once had, they also never had the financial problems that the Mets have now. That might suggest, however, that “rebuilding” is not specifically being done out of the cause of team re-assessment but more or less for “re-organizing and down-sizing” due to the financial reality of the ownership. In that respect, Sandy Alderson was the right man for the job for the immediate goal of ownership is to cut costs.
The problem is the Braves didn’t develop pen arms!
Thats a myth! What they did was stocked thier Starting rotation with some kids and a few Bought and traded for arms making the kid pitcher they had not needed to fill the rotation and then used as Pen!
So before you can DEVELOP the bullpen you first have to stack the rotation with good enough pitching to make those kids have no place to go btut the pen and if one of those starters go down you merely take one of those “Used to Be starters” and let them start till he gets back.
It goes back to what a waste it is to draft a pitcher with the intentions of making him a Reliever! Same development cost as a starter but the return is less!
Better to draft starters, try to make them starters and only once they fail in that do you then move them to the pen where fewer innings might make what they have effective enough!
We are going abot the Pen fix ALL WRONG!
Fix the area that forces you to SE the relievers, Stock up for that area and salvage the failres or those who can’t break through by sticking them in the pen!
We are filling up the pen and ignored the high probability someone from the rotation could get hurt and now are stuck with no one to take the place!
Not sure what the 90s braves have to do with the current Mets but, to say the Braves of 91-whenever didn’t develop bullpen arms is just wrong.
The Mets have had 3 solid young arms come through their system since 2001. Heilman, Feliciano, Parnell. And I’m being generous with how they go to the Mets.
From 91-01 the Braves had Stanton, Mercker, Wohlers, McMichael, Clontz, Borbon, Wade, Rocker, Lightenberg, McGlinchy
I’m not sure how those names justify a statement like “The problem is the Braves didn’t develop pen arms! That’s a myth!”
You totally missed the piont about the braves and what they developed…
THEY DID NOT DRAFT RELIEVERS!
They did NOT draft a kid and say he might be a good closer or 8th inning guy!
Did they draft Pitchers? YEP! The best they could find!
But they didn’t say I’m going to make him a setup or closer or middle relief!
Did those guys they drafted eventually serve as DEVELOPED relievers?
Yes! Because they didn’t need to send them in the starting rotation, couldn’t break through the starting rotation and with no where else to go they wound up being DEVELOPED relievers!
But that wasn’t why they were drafted NOR was it what they were developed to be!
A Reliever is not a position it is a consolation prize for those who can’t be starters and are not bad enough to outright cut!
Fail as a starter then you try him at reliever, fails at that he’s done!
But no one goes into a draft saying I want to waste a 2nd rounder on a guy who is only going to give me 81-90 innings a season! And if anyone does they don’t stay employed long!
Braves got thier rotation set and once set all those kids who could not beat a smoltz glavine and maddox got used in the pen…It is those gys you THINK they DEVELOPED to be relievers but that wasn’t what they had drafted and developed them for it jst happens to be what position they were used in de to no room in the rotation!
Hi Metsi,
Good point, even Mariano Riveria was a starter in his minor league career and about half the games he appeared in his rookie season with the Yankees were as a starter. He never started a game since.
But aren’t there those who are trained to be relievers since starters in the minor leagues have their own pitch counts? Is it that those who mostly relieve are usually not ones who are highly rated in the system and thus have to prove their worth in relief stints so to move up in the starting rotation – and why some pitchers have longer careers in the minors than others?
“They did NOT draft a kid and say he might be a good closer or 8th inning guy!”
Almost nobody does that. You need to stop yelling at me when I respond to things you say. If you say they didn’t develop bullpen arms, I’m gonna prove you wrong.
If Mejia turns into the best closer since Mariano one day and is on the Mets, guess what? We’ll say the Mets developed a closer. Doesn’t matter if that was the original intention.
The Braves developed all of those bullpen arms, whether they were drafted to be that or not does not matter. The end result does.
To be in a major league bullpen, you have to be a good pitcher. You just need different kinds of stuff than a starter. The Mets have developed a very, VERY small amount of pitchers in the last 10 years… starters or bullpen
If mejia becomes a bullpen arm it won’t be becase they developed a bullpen arm it will be because they developed and had a fll up starting rotation to force mejia into that role!
You can call that developing a bullpen arm and if the Starting rotation sucks and they STILL put Mejia in the pen then you might be able to say thats what they did!
But you don’t fill your pen with MiLers unless your starting rotation is so good they can’t become starters!
Thats the key point!
So to get more kids to become starter the first step is to make the starting rotation so good that all your best kids who can not beat those arms has no place to go but the pen!
Why haven’t we developed any Pen arms other than Parnell in the last 10 years?
Because ANY pitcher worth a damn has been made a starter because we have never filled that rotation with good and great pitchers!
If we had Pelfrey, Gee maybe even Niese wold be or Bullpen right now and that wold be a damn good pen wouldn’t it?
Then you could say we developed a ton of Pen arms couldn’t you?
So instead of buying relievers and hoping Harvey and Familia become good starters better to buy good starters and if Harvey or Familia can’t out pitch what we bought we have excellent relievers instead!
i.e. If we had gone and signed CJ Wilson in the offseason and Pelfrey was still healthy where would Gee be right now?
He would be in the pen and be a damn site better than acosta or bautista wouldn’t he?
Fill the steak positions (starter) and whats left over can be turned to ground beef (relievers) and the better the cuts of meat that fill the steak the better the cuts you will be grinding up for your hamburger!
So why no players brought in to perhaps fill holes for let’s say a projected 2 or 3 years until the organization believes they will have someone to fill a hole? Well, for one thing you can always find cheap labor in free agency. And obviously, especially in this year’s case, the object was to keep costs down. The multiyear contract can a) keep someone here longer than the front office thinks they may remain effective, b) may block someone from coming up if they all of a sudden put everything together and are ready to move up, and c) most players aren’t exactly jumping to sign cheap multiyear contracts on the off chance that they happen to have a breakout year that will increase their value to their next employer.
If the long-term goal is to achieve a good bullpen with the arms we have developing on the farm and thus the commitments we make at present are short-term single or two-year contracts in nature and with aging veterans, why then did Sandy also make moves that he DID NOT HAVE TO which would have achieved that same exact goal in much better terms regarding the current roster?
- He could not reach an agreement with Takahashi after 2010 and Sandy said the reason they then released him was because Takahshi wanted to test the free agent market and he wished him well. But it wasn’t so cut and dry as that. Both sides had been in negotiations prior to the release and Takahashi was also seeking a two-year contract that the Mets weren’t willing to commit to (though they have with other less efficient relievers since). The contract was two years at $4 million. Last season with the Angels in 68 innings gave up just 58 hits and had a 1.221 whip and an ERA .344 mostly in middle relief. T
- Though he wound up pitching in the Mexican League in 2011, Elmer Dessens had a credible season in 2010. Elmer was also released but since he was passed up by all 29 other teams the Mets could have easily stuck with him for another season.
- Why release Jason Isringhausen who pitched effectively and is now also with the Angels, a team that over the winter planned on winning the AL West title? Yes, he ended the season with a herniated disc but Sandy has signed damaged goods like Carasco, Capuano and Young (once again, I might add) so why not Jason? Terry Collins raved about Jason’s influence with the young pitchers. Jason also loved the thought of ending his career with the organization he started out with – but with Sandy saying over the winter that he was content with the new bullpen he put together it appeared Jason was not going to get his wish.
- The Mets were also willing to re-sign Pedro Feliciano and go to arbitration of which he declined because he too was seeking a multi-year deal which the Mets didn’t want to commit to. His contract with the Yankees was for two years at $7.750 million and Sandy then signed the injured D.J. Carasco to a two-year $2.4 million contract to in order to save $2.8 million per year? Since the Mets wanted to retain Pedro’s services and that he did pass the Yankee physical the issue of the shoulder injury and eventual rotor cuff surgery was not an issue at the time.
Notice, I did not bring up the issue of KRod since it had to deal more with the Mets not having to pay that $17 million bonus and other financial issues. Had the financial situation been different, he too could have been included in this assessment. But if the financial situation wasn’t as bad as many in the organization now infer, then he could be.
The only defense on Takahashi I can provide is that maybe Alderson didn’t want to give a multiyear contract to a 35 year old reliever with one year in the league unless it was at a certain cost. That being said 2 yrs/ $7 million isn’t exactly breaking the bank. However the payroll was about $133 million in 2010 and $120 million in 2011. The payroll crunch was already on and the Mets spent about $3.7 million on Beato, Byrdak, Carrasco, and Buchholz to fill out the bullpen which was less than Takahashi made by himself. He certainly got quantity if not quality. Seems likely there just may not have been any financial wiggle room to get the deal done. Also, a lot of players have a dip in performance their second year as the league adjusts. Obviously he put up a solid season in 2011 so that didn’t occur, but you never know in that regard. And to be fair so far in 2012 he’s been dreadful, so he’d fit right in to the Mets bullpen (joking of course). So I can see the logic, not that I agree with it but I can understand a possible reason for him not coming back.
As far as Dessens is concerned the fact that he was not even with an organization, or at least was signed midseason by any team who may have needed bullpen help, allows for me to give Alderson a pass. If someone thought he was still a big league pitcher he would have had a shot somewhere, one would assume anyway.
There is no defending Isringhausen being let go. He had a decent enough 2011, was a great influence on the young guys, and was only looking for a one year deal. Not to mention that the contract he signed with the Angels was dirt cheap. Shame on Sandy as it made sense for the club financially and in field production as well as would have be a fan friendly move. Not saying that any team should base roster decisions on fan wants/demands, but isn’t it nice if you like what your team does?
With Feliciano you can say the shoulder wasn’t a concern, but I do remember his workload being brought up an awful lot and I think that factored into what the Mets offered. Whether or not that was the reasoning in actuality it has worked out in the team’s favor. Taking that out of the equation though, I already discussed the money issue with my statement on Takahashi.
And yes, obviously K-Rod was strictly a money deal. He may have made every appearance an adventure, but he got the job done. And obviously it was to the detriment of the on field product. The contract just couldn’t fit with the financial outlook for the team. Just how it is, it sucks but it had to be done.
Hi Sane,
Good point all around.
Since we are talking in terms of short-term relief to fill roster spots in the “re-building” process and because the Mets are strapped for cash, Sandy wasn’t interested in a two year commitment to either Takahashi and Feliciano yet he did so with Carasco. Even though D.J. was cheaper, it proved to be a waste of whatever little money the Mets did have. If the situation was so bad that the Mets couldn’t afford the extra less than $3 million it would have cost to retain either Takahashi (since they were concerned with the innings pitched by Pedro) it’s a sign that their financial situation was in dire straits.
Then Sandy signed Franciscco for $12 million over two years while Takahashi is on the second year of a $8 million deal with the Angeles. $4 million less for a pitcher I think all fans would have been more comfortable with.
In total, over $12 million has been spent this year on Rauch, Valedez and Francisco while Takahashi would have cost $4.2 million and Issy for $650K (a combined million dollars less than what Francisco is getting). Since he is looking for the short term, age would not be an issue for fill ins that still can pitch effectively.
Sandy took a chance by signing a much older Issy who in 2010 pitched all of five innings in the minor leagues for the Reds organization so could not the same low-risk chance have been taken with Elmer who pitched decently enough to at least earn it? Instead, he dumped both.
Whether these decisions on who to sign and who to release were made by Sandy and DePodesta based on “money ball”, “computer analysis” “traditional” methodology or a combination of all three, the Met front office did not do well with the cash it was willing to spend and as we have noted, could have done better.
The same holds true for most of those at the major league level both have brought in the past 18 months or so. Whatever problems we had after 2010, our bullpen and bench were not the most alarming and that is now the case.
If the seasons between 2011 and let’s say 2014 were to be sacrificed for the sake of rebuilding and payroll reduction, the question does remain: could we have done better or did we simply throw those seasons away to save whatever cash we could?
This is something that supporters of Sandy must loo
First off, seeing what happened Feliciano, Sandy made the right call in not wanting to go two years on a contract. Let’s give him credit where it is due, we’re not wasting money on a guy who still hasn’t thrown a meaningful pitch since the contract dispute.
Now yes, the relievers brought in by Sandy last season didn’t pan out as planned, exception being Izzy and Byrdak who exceeded any expectations that could have been had for them, but the truth is we don’t know the extent of the team’s financial crisis. So yes, I am saying that it is possible that at the time they realistically couldn’t budget Takahashi and his $3.8 million salary while cutting the payroll roughly $12 million and needing to fill out the roster. If I have 4 holes to fill and $4 million to do it in (just using the fact that he brought the aforementioned 4 relievers for roughly $3.7 million) spending $3.8 million on Takahashi just doesn’t work. The remaining $200k wouldn’t even allow for three people making the league minimum, heck that doesn’t allow for even one player at the minimum. (I think the minimum is 480k right?) Carrying debt from a new, and expensive stadium, a high priced roster, I think we can agree that $120 million is a lot of money, coupled with the lower than expected performance for the expenditure, which leads to decreased revenues, and the possibility that you may be losing $1 billion in a lawsuit very well may have lead to pinching pennies. Again, not saying that’s why. I’m just allowing for the possibility.
Now, onto the spending in 2012 of $11.5 million on Rauch and Francisco. The payroll is down as a whole of almost $40 million. So even with the “splurge” on relievers the Wilpons are spending much less on this roster than in 2011. Not to mention, and yes we disagree on this I know from last time, the Madoff settlement has let the Wilpons know that they will only be paying $180 million out of the $1 billion suit. Again, yes they have other obligations, but I refuse to believe that news doesn’t allow for a better financial outlook ahead. the knowledge that you won’t have to spend $820 million is uplifting to say the least. I personally would feel a lot better if I had a loan consolidated and owed 82% less on it in my future. I’m going to go out on a limb and say the Wilpons do as well. Not saying it magically makes everything all better and they will be swimming in money like Uncle Scrooge McDuck, but it allows for a bit more to keep in the vault.
So yes, Takahashi would be cheaper this year rather than Francisco, but that’s not the point. If the timetable were sent back a year maybe Sandy keeps Takahashi in 2012 for the 2 yr/ $7 million contract. But 2011, and 2012 have different circumstances attached to them.
I already stated how I can’t find an argument against bringing back Izzy. The only possible reason is if they knew something about an injury, which obviously isn’t the case.
As far as Dessens I’ll again say that 29 other GMs didn’t even offer him a minor league deal. He’s not back in 2012 either, so I still give Sandy a pass. If there was any reason to believe he could contribute some team would have taken a shot. 30 teams, and as can be seen every year every team will need an extra guy in the bullpen either due to injury of ineffectiveness. If Dessens was capable of helping he’d have a contract somewhere.
I don’t support Sandy blindly. No one should. I look at everything he has done with the thought that the owners of the team are obviously looking to downsize on payroll. Maybe that’s what fans don’t want to hear. That baseball is a business and decisions are not purely based on wins and losses. Sandy has been the GM for two years and the payroll has dropped in the ballpark of $55 million. If he was allowed to reinvest that money into the team I’m sure that we could have gone after better players in free agency. However, this wasn’t the case. I doubt any GM would cut that much money unless forced to.
These seasons aren’t be sacrificed for payroll reduction and rebuilding because the GM thinks it’s the only way to do things. The payroll had to be cut, Sandy is doing what he can to field a competitive team given the financial constraints. Try improving anything while cutting more than a third of your funding, it’s not something that’s going to be easy.
Could we have done better? It’s possible. But if you don’t think the directive is coming from the Wilpons to make these cash saving moves I think we’re not taking a fey element into consideration. I feel like there is a whole group of people that seem to think this is a black and white situation. It’s not, to me at least. I believe that Sandy is doing the best he feels he can with the situation he is in. That’s all.
Hi Sane,
We mostly agree more than disagree and even on those points, I appreciate very much the manner you present them, with no personal attacks – for as you know I’ve been the target of mockery quite often simply due to my opinions, which I think are valid though doesn’t mean they are written in stone, either.
Guess we will just have to wait and see till next season whether or not it was more the civil suit hanging over their heads rather than the scenarios I presented to determine why the financial moves were made these past two seasons. If the re-investment in some key elements that could really help the team begins again – and I don’t mean in terms of Omar but in terms of wise and prudent spending – then it was the uncertainty of the future due to Madoff as you suggest. There are many possibilities as we both attest to.
One clue we might see this year is what the Mets do this July with Santana and Wright, even if the team itself is not playing so well. If Santa is sent packing, or if negotiations are not at least beginning with David’s agent, that would open up a lot of questions.
But what makes me gravitate to the opposite direction you correctly state could be a possibility is because I still do not understand why the civil suit would cause the Mets to twice need loans to meet monthly operating costs. That is a sign of a business already not on solid footing – that it couldn’t even meet payroll with a loan. Sandy has stated the Mets have enough capital on their own to last through this year – but nothing said about 2013 and beyond. Yes, they had to downsize as much as possible to be ready to survive even the worst case scenario in that civil suit – but again, why would it come down to needing loans just to meet operational expenses for the month?
That’s why I feel the civil suit would have been the nail in the coffin and with that gone the Wilpons do not have to liquidate but still need to work on shoestring budgets for the immediate future. If I’m wrong, we’ll then see some more purse strings begin to open.
And I agree with you – whatever one thinks of Sandy in terms of baseball knowledge – what has been happening now has been dictated to him by the ownership and his hands are indeed tied. I think I’ve been mentioning that Sandy deserves a pass so far and have been criticizing his moves purely on a baseball level. I do doubt that under normal circumstances he would have sent KRod and Beltran packing the middle of last season. I’m glad you agree that with KRod it was purely business – and that the move in itself “sucked” but what could we have done.
Baseball is a business and many a move is made on that factor alone. Connie Mack twice dissolved his old championship-caliber Philadelphia A’s clubs because he needed the money so what we saw with KRod and Beltran last season and the cheap contracts had happened way before the age of free agency when owners had complete control of their players.
** That is something that supporters of Sandy must look into besides those of us who are not in his camp – at least at this time.
Hi Metsi,
I don’t think that if the Mets do not turn a profit next year (or even the year after) that Sandy will be out the door for I think his job was more or less to get the house in order financially and doing that precludes making a profit first. The downsizing, as we know, has gone way beyond reducing the roster payroll as we have seen the resultant office workers losing jobs, a rooke team down in Florida disbandened and a financial consultant brought in.
My own thought is that once the franchise seems to have re-organized itself in what is perceived as a more efficient way ot doing business, Sandy’s job would be done and he might go back to the Commissioner’s office, seek out other work, or retire.
But there is a catch-22 for all this to work. Does the Mets continuing to lose revenue mean even more drastic cuts to the operating budget to account for those losses? How much more can they cut to offset the annual losses? My own guess is that after the cost-efficient reorganizing is complete, a magic bullet will be found in the form of television rights sold to SNY, SNY itself or some other finageling of the Sterling Equities ledger book that won’t be made public (obviously) to make the Mets suddenly profitable again.
Well Joey if they are not profitable by next year can you really say he has succeeded in getting financially in order?
Or will he have failed?
I say he will have failed if what someone gets paid two years from now is still an issue!
This year and next Reyes is making less than he made last year on a per year basis!
To say we couldn’t afford the commitment of that contract means your also saying we will not have our finances in order for the duration of that contract!
Truth is the not signing of reyes is not helping the long term finances any more than ramirez and francisco are he;lping the long term winning!
We are on a FANTASY baseball plan here…No Future exists just what we can get each year and hope the draft makes up for it!
And when it doesn’t we keep on just putting up yearly bandaids until fate steps in and makes a miracle!
Not the way to run a team if you ask me.
Fact is for the price of what we paid all those failed relievers we could have gotten a pretty good starter!
For that price we could have had reyes being a draw to entice attendance to fix the problem not just cover it up with frugality!
We are sweeping the problems nder the rug, painting over the crasks with paint hoping someone doesn’t notice and using the finances as an excuse yet doing nothing to fix the cause of those finances….
ATTENDANCE!
Hi Metsi,
Well, you know my feelings about the Mets financially, that they will not get their financial house in order until the Wilpons get their financial mansion – Sterling Equities – in order. Though we disagree on that point, I think the attendance issue, while a major source of revenue no doubt, a drop in revenue generated by those dwindling numbers is offset by other holdings that the financial success of the New York Mets in both, the selling of television rights which goes to the ball club and the revenue generated by SNY (majority share owners being Sterling Equities).
If you scroll toward the bottom of the following article, it is stated that the $70 million loss the Mets hit in 2011 was more than offset by revenue generated by SNY – part of the Wilpons holdings – and the part they would not part with.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/sports/regional-sports-networks-show-teams-the-money.html?pagewanted=all
I have attached an article regarding the Cleveland Indians, whose attendance problems are worse than the Mets with their market value as far as broadcasting is concerned placing them in the lower third in baseball. Yet, the article indicates that the Indians are at least able to “sustain” themselves economically despite the low attendance and drop in revenue because of the television rights and it is hoped that a new agreement will enable them to re-invest more in the team. Thus if Cleveland can simply”sustain” itself, imagine what the Mets could do.
http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2012/01/the_big_picture_is_tv_rights_m.html
Finally, attached is one more article, maybe repetitious like the other two, but important because it cites (as I think Sandy Alderson also alluded to in an interview as well) that the operating expenses of most teams are within the same ballpark of each other.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/story/2012-02-06/MLB-teams-using-lucrative-TV-deals-to-sign-talent/53032284/1
Hence, my contention that the Mets troubles are more related to the overall financial problems of Sterling Equities. If it was due primarily to the Madoff civil suit hanging over their heads then as I have already said, next year expect the Mets to suddenly find a “silver bullet” in their ability to start spending more. If it goes beyond that, then don’t expect the Mets to climb back into the obtaining of more expensive and better producing players for years to come.
The Mets generate the most publicity of the Wilpon holdings so it is understandable why so much attention is paid to Sandy Alderon’s role with the organization. I suspect the Wilpons have hired similar business and legal experts to downsize their other less publicized but lucrative holdings as well. If not, and all the cutbacks in spending were done in anticipation of the civil suit hanging over their heads and not their overall financial stability being on precarious footing, then it shows that maybe Fred and Jeff panicked too early. We have to hope that is the case so the Mets can compliment this group of potentially good players with others to fill in the missing links.