“Plate discipline for me is swinging at something that I’m looking for and I can hit,” Murphy
says. “For the most part, I like the pitch down, so I try not to swing at anything up until two
strikes, because if I swing at that, then I’m out.” – Daniel Murphy

“For me, plate discipline is being able to know what pitch you want to put in play before you step
in the box and not swinging at anything else but that.” – Chipper Jones

Watch the first two pitches of every AB. Watch for the location of the first called strikes and watch the location of the later strikes!

You will see when the Pitcher feels he WANTS to throw a strike (early in the count to avoid a hitter’s count) he will throw it fatter than when he HAS to throw a strike (becase he is in a hitter’s count) but really doesn’t want to!

Pitchers try to sneak the fat pitches by you early to stay away from the hitter’s count and once in a hitter’s accont YES they are forced to throw a strike but try not to make it fat hoping you miss it!

You show me a statistical listing of location and selection based on Pitch cont and I would be happy to compile and chart the data for you!
I know of no sch source but I do know what I see game in and game out!

And usually the first two pitches are the fattest strikes a batter sees because the pitcher wants to be sre to get one before he tries to steal a strike later on with his slider and breaking ball in hitter’s counts!

Would not use such an adjective to describe someone personally for his opinion – some very unflattering remarks were made at my personal expense and believe me it was tempting to answer back in the same manner.

Of course, the point about these players not knowing the game like a Brian Kenny and Tom Verducci gets to the heart of the issue that Bayonne raised about those who delve deeply into data believing this enables them to understand baseball more deeply than those who have had their roots entrenched in the game.

The other day I raised the point that Kenny was saying how managers should more often employ extreme shifts and that Al Lieter was shaking his head in disgust as Kenny backed up his position with the use of “saber charts”. Leiter replied that such regular usage would mess up a pitchers game because it makes him pitch differently for each shift. I was taken to court on this issue but needless to say, there was no evidence presented to back up Kenny’s take on the issue at hand, only the hypothetical argument that Leiter, being a successful major league pitcher , didn’t automatically mean he understood as much about the game as Kenny and being a pitcher he might very well have little knowledge of the many other aspects of the game beyond pitching. Again, no substantial details about how pitchers could adjust their game and thus Leiter being incorrect in his assumption – just innuendo.

Al brought up specific reasons why he believed otherwise. Believe me, if there was (or will be) backup presented by some coaches and players saying this does not mess up a pitcher’s performance, citing those who were not any less effective changing their approach, I would gladly admit to Kenny having a new insight on the subject of using more unconventional shifts more often in a game and chalk up Leiter to just being stubborn and that there is more open room for debate on the entire issue.

Needless to say, there are many former ballplayers who I think are terrible analysts because they are paid to be shills to promote the game or particular team as positively as possible. We see the YES former players turned broadcasters rarely come down hard against a strategy or a mishap made by the home team. Or ever see a candid appraisal of a player on the FOX pre-game? Bobby O. is not one of them. Neither are Gary, Keith or Ron when it comes to game evaluation, however I did notice an unfortunate trend to emphasize the company line when it came to the Reyes situation for what was left out of the conversation was presenting Jose’s side of the issue other than he wanted to leave.

If experience players should be ignored maybe all us blog posters should be ignored too!

Yep the WORLD is crazy! Only you OBP fanatics are actually sane!

Sure it would but it dioesn’t make either a good thing to do!

Bad Example Any…REAL bad example you gave there!

Jessep is right. the approach is to resist swinging at the crap pitchers throw to try and tempt you into digging yourself into a hole. If they throw a slider in the dirt to start, let it go. But 100% you should be hacking if they start with a “get me over” FB to try and get ahead in the count.

The Mets have struggled largely b/c some guys…particularly Davis has been absolutely brutal. Duda has also been up and down (though not as much as Ike). And that has nothing to do with the “philosophy” the “philosophy” was the same last year and both those guys played well. And Ike is actually swinging at a lot more pitches out of the zone this year, and making less contact than he did last year…which is probably a big part of his problem.

It’s true that pitches per PA is not always the best metric for hitting well. But that doesn’t mean taking pitches is bad. Sometimes its indicative of players swinging through and/or fouling off pitches they should be putting in play

This myth that our Mets broadcasters are so great stretches the limits of absurdity and takes it to a new level. Darling and Ojeda may have been useful as players one time, but as analysts I’ve never heard more ignorance spewing from anyone’s moth than I hear from these two oafs. Their weekly rants are just rating grabbers for the show.

If you want a real analyst then go out and get one. See what it will cost to steal Brian Kenny or Tom Verducci away from MLB Network, Throw DePo in there for crying out loud. Just get those two idiots off the screen and stop giving them a platform to air their incoherent views and uneducated opinions of the game.

Keep Hernandez around because there’s nothing wrong with a good laugh during the game and because all the gen-xers cant live without an 86er at the mic. But for crissakes get Darling and Ojeda out of there!

Maybe if you really wanted to honestly look at the issue you would have given statistics of the NON-Swings made when it IS in the strike zone! What are the statistics on CALLED Strikes?
What are the statistics on punchouts where the batter was looking for something in the name of DISCIPLINE?
What are the swing metrics on 3-0 and 3-1? Have any idea?

Cause thats what Ojeda was talking about!

How many Fat fastballs down the pipe have simply gone by the batter early in the count because he is WAITING for that pitch but wasn’t ready because the Philosophy says WAIT not HIT!

The problem with the philosophy is it focuses so mch on the WAIT that it is not focsing on what to do WHEN IT COMES!

And the PATIENCE being taught is casing them to TAKE those fat pitches they are supposed to be up there looking for!