5
2012
Plate Discipline Doesn’t Mean “Don’t Swing.”
An article by 
Last night, we had a fan post on here in reaction to Bobby Ojeda’s mini rant on SNY.
I have to say, I view it differently than how Ojeda made it sound, or at least how it was viewed by the fan post. Just because the Mets are looking to be disciplined at the plate, doesn’t mean they are refusing to swing the bat. The “philosophy” is meant to force pitchers to throw strikes, thus giving hitters a better chance at being successful.
With any strategy, there will be failure. Every time a Mets hitter is at bat, they are not going to be successful. It’s impossible. That doesn’t mean the philosophy to be more disciplined is flawed. It just means the players didn’t execute the strategy.
Consider this:
It’s worth noting out of 184 qualified hitters, there are 65 of them who have swung and missed at balls outside of the strikezone before any Met player.
That is a pretty significant number in my eyes. That tells me the Mets ARE being disciplined at the plate.
Murphy leads the Mets in swings and misses outside the strikezone.
I think people confuse the idea of being disciplined with not wanting to swing at a good pitch. Here are the Mets percentage and rankings in MLB with regards to swinging and missing outside the strike zone.
Murphy 31.2% – 66th
Ike 29.5% – 77th
Kirk 26% – 119th
Duda 22.1% – 158th
Tejada 22% – 160th
Wright 19.3% – 175th
Thole 18% – 177th
Now, the Mets are making mistakes. No doubt about it. Here is the percentage of pitches a batter swings at inside the strike zone.
Kirk 54.2% – 171st
Tejada 60.5% – 131st
Ike 64.1 – 92nd
Duda 63.6 – 97th
Murphy 66.9 % – 63rd
Thole 65.1 – 78th
Wright 68.5 – 47th
These numbers tell me the problem is not the philosophy, but merely the execution. The idea is to recognize the strike zone and recognize when there is a pitch to hit, you should swing at it. If they aren’t swinging at it, that doesn’t mean they want a walk. It could mean their approach is not working.
All the Mets want is better strike zone recognition. When you recognize a pitch is in the zone, and you swing, your odds of being successful are better than if you swing at a pitch out of the zone (unless you’re Vlad Guerrero). That is the whole idea. It’s not a bad idea either.
I’m not going to pound my fist and blame Sandy Alderson for the fact that Tejada is not swinging the bat enough.
It’s up to Tejada to swing at the pitches that he can hit. He needs to start recognizing that he can do more damage with the bat if he swings at the strikes thrown to him.
If he doesn’t, that is not the fault of a philosophy designed to focus on plate discipline. It’s the players fault for not executing the strategy better.
About the Author: Michael J. Branda
My time with MMO began in July of 2009 when I wrote a Fan Post defending Omar Minaya (before it was cool to do that.) I grew up a Mets fan with the mid 1980's teams. My favorite Met of all-time is (and was) Wally Backman. When it comes to sabermetrics versus old school thinking, I like to think I meet in the middle. I believe thinking of new ways to get answers is helpful, especially when the same way has not produced results. However, I think over-thinking certain situations can get you into trouble. I'm excited for the new regime, because I believe they have pieces in place to focus on several aspects of the Mets organization. I've waited this long for a World Series, waiting a few more years for another chance isn't going to kill me.
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I was wondering when the damage control post was coming!
Maybe if you really wanted to honestly look at the issue you would have given statistics of the NON-Swings made when it IS in the strike zone! What are the statistics on CALLED Strikes?
What are the statistics on punchouts where the batter was looking for something in the name of DISCIPLINE?
What are the swing metrics on 3-0 and 3-1? Have any idea?
Cause thats what Ojeda was talking about!
How many Fat fastballs down the pipe have simply gone by the batter early in the count because he is WAITING for that pitch but wasn’t ready because the Philosophy says WAIT not HIT!
The problem with the philosophy is it focuses so mch on the WAIT that it is not focsing on what to do WHEN IT COMES!
And the PATIENCE being taught is casing them to TAKE those fat pitches they are supposed to be up there looking for!
Metsie — Evidence of your view would help.
Ok watch the next game…No need for statistics you can see what I mean in any game!
Watch the first two pitches of every AB. Watch for the location of the first called strikes and watch the location of the later strikes!
You will see when the Pitcher feels he WANTS to throw a strike (early in the count to avoid a hitter’s count) he will throw it fatter than when he HAS to throw a strike (becase he is in a hitter’s count) but really doesn’t want to!
Pitchers try to sneak the fat pitches by you early to stay away from the hitter’s count and once in a hitter’s accont YES they are forced to throw a strike but try not to make it fat hoping you miss it!
You show me a statistical listing of location and selection based on Pitch cont and I would be happy to compile and chart the data for you!
I know of no sch source but I do know what I see game in and game out!
And usually the first two pitches are the fattest strikes a batter sees because the pitcher wants to be sre to get one before he tries to steal a strike later on with his slider and breaking ball in hitter’s counts!
This needs to be said, because I am so sick and tired of hearing how great Gary, Keith and Ron are in the booth and even sicker of seeing the words Ojeda and analyst in the same sentence.
This myth that our Mets broadcasters are so great stretches the limits of absurdity and takes it to a new level. Darling and Ojeda may have been useful as players one time, but as analysts I’ve never heard more ignorance spewing from anyone’s moth than I hear from these two oafs. Their weekly rants are just rating grabbers for the show.
If you want a real analyst then go out and get one. See what it will cost to steal Brian Kenny or Tom Verducci away from MLB Network, Throw DePo in there for crying out loud. Just get those two idiots off the screen and stop giving them a platform to air their incoherent views and uneducated opinions of the game.
Keep Hernandez around because there’s nothing wrong with a good laugh during the game and because all the gen-xers cant live without an 86er at the mic. But for crissakes get Darling and Ojeda out of there!
uneducated opinion of the game.r u serious.?they were both players. you sound stupid with that comment.
What else would you expect from someone who posts under hundreds of different names, and uses them to stalk people over the internet?
not referring to these guys, but in general, just because a guy played doesn’t mean he actually knows what he is talking about!
Well they sure know more than Jessup Kramer and you!
Why don’t we just shut down all the Blogs because if it is pointless to listen to what experienced players have to say it even more pointless to hear what non-players have to say What do you say to that?
If experience players should be ignored maybe all us blog posters should be ignored too!
any — good point. Alternatively Charlie Manuel, Jim Leyland, Walter Alston, Bobby Cox, arguably Billy Beane, bad hitting Ozzie Guillen, Sparky Anderson, and Tony La Russa might not have been great players and great hitters but they could relate, manage and teach.
Hi Addict,
Would not use such an adjective to describe someone personally for his opinion – some very unflattering remarks were made at my personal expense and believe me it was tempting to answer back in the same manner.
Of course, the point about these players not knowing the game like a Brian Kenny and Tom Verducci gets to the heart of the issue that Bayonne raised about those who delve deeply into data believing this enables them to understand baseball more deeply than those who have had their roots entrenched in the game.
The other day I raised the point that Kenny was saying how managers should more often employ extreme shifts and that Al Lieter was shaking his head in disgust as Kenny backed up his position with the use of “saber charts”. Leiter replied that such regular usage would mess up a pitchers game because it makes him pitch differently for each shift. I was taken to court on this issue but needless to say, there was no evidence presented to back up Kenny’s take on the issue at hand, only the hypothetical argument that Leiter, being a successful major league pitcher , didn’t automatically mean he understood as much about the game as Kenny and being a pitcher he might very well have little knowledge of the many other aspects of the game beyond pitching. Again, no substantial details about how pitchers could adjust their game and thus Leiter being incorrect in his assumption – just innuendo.
Al brought up specific reasons why he believed otherwise. Believe me, if there was (or will be) backup presented by some coaches and players saying this does not mess up a pitcher’s performance, citing those who were not any less effective changing their approach, I would gladly admit to Kenny having a new insight on the subject of using more unconventional shifts more often in a game and chalk up Leiter to just being stubborn and that there is more open room for debate on the entire issue.
Needless to say, there are many former ballplayers who I think are terrible analysts because they are paid to be shills to promote the game or particular team as positively as possible. We see the YES former players turned broadcasters rarely come down hard against a strategy or a mishap made by the home team. Or ever see a candid appraisal of a player on the FOX pre-game? Bobby O. is not one of them. Neither are Gary, Keith or Ron when it comes to game evaluation, however I did notice an unfortunate trend to emphasize the company line when it came to the Reyes situation for what was left out of the conversation was presenting Jose’s side of the issue other than he wanted to leave.
You forgot to trash Kiner who has said the same exact thing…
Oh while your at it you shold be trashing the guys at Fox and ESPN who have said the same things when they covered our games as well!
Yep the WORLD is crazy! Only you OBP fanatics are actually sane!
Preaching plate patience does not = preaching taking fat pitches. And the philosophy is largely to swing at your pitch…yeah maybe you’ll take the strike 1 thats knee high on the outside corner b/c you don’t think you’ll be able to do much with the pitching. Taking some strikes isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
The Mets have struggled largely b/c some guys…particularly Davis has been absolutely brutal. Duda has also been up and down (though not as much as Ike). And that has nothing to do with the “philosophy” the “philosophy” was the same last year and both those guys played well. And Ike is actually swinging at a lot more pitches out of the zone this year, and making less contact than he did last year…which is probably a big part of his problem.
It’s true that pitches per PA is not always the best metric for hitting well. But that doesn’t mean taking pitches is bad. Sometimes its indicative of players swinging through and/or fouling off pitches they should be putting in play
thanks for the comment zz!
would it be better to preach hack at everything that comes vaguely near the plate, in any count?
Jessep is right. the approach is to resist swinging at the crap pitchers throw to try and tempt you into digging yourself into a hole. If they throw a slider in the dirt to start, let it go. But 100% you should be hacking if they start with a “get me over” FB to try and get ahead in the count.
Wold preaching jmping in front of a moving train be better than teaching jump off a skyscraper?
Sure it would but it dioesn’t make either a good thing to do!
Bad Example Any…REAL bad example you gave there!
Agreed, Ike is actually NOT following Hudgens philosophy. In fact anyone taking a strike down the middle in a hitters count would not be following the philosophy. Anyone taking a 3rd strike would also be against Hudgens philosophy. It doesn’t matter what philosophy if Ike is going to swing at breaking balls in the dirt early in the count.
I found these quotes
“Plate discipline for me is swinging at something that I’m looking for and I can hit,” Murphy
says. “For the most part, I like the pitch down, so I try not to swing at anything up until two
strikes, because if I swing at that, then I’m out.” – Daniel Murphy
“For me, plate discipline is being able to know what pitch you want to put in play before you step
in the box and not swinging at anything else but that.” – Chipper Jones