12
2012
Oh Frankie, I Really Wish Sandy Hadn’t Signed You
An article by 
Frank Francisco blew the save last night, one that would have pushed our winning streak to 6 games, and a season high 6 games over .500. The loss is not catastrophic by any means, but it just re-emphasizes that fact that we don’t have a shut down closer.
As crazy as our former closer Frankie Rodriguez was, he was still a top level closer and despite his high wire act most nights, he usually got the job done. There were also nights where he was just unhittable and even stretches of games where he would pitch four days in a row without being touched.
So far Francisco has just not been very reliable. You want to see an ugly stat line for a closer just take a look Frankie’s numbers below.
|
IP |
H |
ER |
BB |
K |
ERA |
WHIP |
|
13 |
18 |
10 |
6 |
15 |
6.59 |
1.76 |
He has saved 8-10 games so far, which is not terrible considering what we have seen around baseball early on. Heath Bell lost his closers role, and teams like Cincinnati, the White Sox and the Dodgers have major issues in the pen. But Francisco was brought in to be the closer, and was given decent money to do so, 2 years and $12 Million to be exact. I just really wish that Alderson would have just given him a 1 year deal, or at least have made the second an option year or performance based. I have to say the early return on this move might be the first mistake Alderson has made as Mets GM, but it is still very early to judge.
There is a reason why a guy like this has never been a full time closer for a team. He can get the job done at times, and even for extended stretches of time, but he is not going to be a shut down guy. If this continues I just don’t see any way he can stay the closer long term. If this team is going to be competitive then he needs to be competitive as well. Allowing 24 base runners in just 13 innings is not going to get the job done.
We all know that Terry holds players accountable, and he will not sit idly and let any one player lose games for us. Francisco better get his act together or we may begin to see some changes to the back end of our bullpen.
About the Author: Dan Valis
I am a staff writer for Mets Merized Online. I am a Mets team analyst with a focus on the minor league system, as well as the major league club. I am a lifelong New Yorker who was born and raised to be a Mets fan. The ups and downs of being a Mets fan is what makes following this team so much fun, but at times so frustrating. You can follow me on Twitter @BgAppleMetsTalk.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 30 | .583 | - |
| Phillies | 35 | 37 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Nationals | 34 | 36 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Mets | 27 | 40 | .403 | 12.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 48 | .314 | 19.0 |
Last updated: 06/19/2013
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oh come on. sandy had a good day.i thought.
Yep he did here is the proof straight from the self proclaimed expert of everything baseball!
The guy who knows more than the entire collective of commentors combined!
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/12/alderson-had-a-good-day.html
Eh. Don’t forget that little jig Kirk did in CF against the Giants that Saturday. Home town scoring ruled it a hit and 2 runs charged to Francisco. Not that 5.54 is something to write home about, but if Kirk makes a routine play, Frank’s ERA is simply high, not on-the-ledge catastrophic. An 80% success rate for aout $6 mil a year is fine compared to what other “high end” closers are making.
Let’s worry about getting a real starter to replace Batista. That’s more of an issue.
I agree whole heartedly…..Frank Fransisco like most closers is going to get knocked around at times as well as being lights out at others…..We knocked Papelbon around only days ago.
The only near perfect closer for a long period of time has been Mariano Rivera.
Also….a blown saves doesn’t mean a loss every time and a scorers generosity often does come into play. An under stated statistic is the “hold” factor.
When all is said and done…if the team continues to be scrappy and hit in the clutch there will be plenty of saves for Frank Francisco.
“I have to say the early return on this move might be the first mistake Alderson has made as Mets GM, but it is still very early to judge.”
D.J Carrasco wasn’t a mistake?
Vinny I stand corrected, I forgot all about that guy. Yeah I ripped that move last season too. out of sight out of mind i guess. But your right that was mistake #1
There have been a ton of useless signings!
So far in our attempts to save money and get bang for the buck at KMart:
Francisco 12M Over 2 Years
Carrasco 2.4 Mil Over 2 Years
Young 1.1 Mil Over 4 games
Thats 15.5M over two years or 7+ MIl per year (Maybe Francisco redeems himself before year 2 maybe not!)
But here are all the signings and their end result!
Mike O’Connor – Signed 11/11/10 – Granted FA 9/29/11 -Signed by Yankees 11/16/11
Russ Adams – Signed 12/6/10 – Retired
Dusty Ryan – Signed 12/6/10 – granted FA 11/2/11
Boof Bonser – Signed 12/8/10 – granted FA 11/2/11
Ronnie Paulino – Signed 12/9/10 – granted FA 12/12/11
DJ Carrasco – Signed 12/9/10 – 43 Games 6.08 ERA
Pedro Beato – Drafted 12/9/10 – Injured 2011
Brad Emaus – Drafted 12/9/10 – Returned to Sender 4/21/11 – Re-Signed 4/25/12
Ching Lung Hu (for Mike Antonini 12/27/10) – granted FA 11/2/11
Chris Capuano – Signed 1/3/11 – Granted FA 10/30/11
Taylor Buchholz – Signed 1/3/11 – Granted FA 11/15/11
Taylor Tankersley – Signed 1/12/11 – Granted FA 11/2/11
Raul Chavez – Signed 1/13/11 – Granted FA 11/2/11
Willie Harris – Signed 1/17/11 – Granted FA 10/30/11
Scott Hairston – Signed 1/20/11 – Granted FA 1/30/11 – Re-Signed 1/11/12
Chris Young – Signed 1/20/11 – Injured – Granted FA 10/30/11 – Re-Signed 3/26/12
Tm Byrdak – Signed 1/21/11 – 91 Games 3.78 ERA -Respectable!
Blaine Boyer – Signed 1/21/11 – Granted FA 4/13/11
Dale Thayer – Signed 2/6/11 – Granted FA 1/21/11
Casey Fossum – Signed 2/9/11 – Released 1/20/12
Jason Isringhausen – Signed 2/15/11 – Granted FA 1/30/11
Justin Hampson – Signed 2/16/11 – Granted FA 11/2/11
Jesus Feliciano – Signed 2/19/11 – Granted FA 11/2/11
Chris Shelton – Signed 2/19/11 – Last played MLB Baseball July 2009!
Les Walrond – Signed 3/1/11 – Released 3/30/11
Allan Dykstra (for Eddie Kunz 3/29/11) – In Binghamtom
Brian Sweeney – Signed 5/5/11 – Granted FA 11/2/11
Luis Figueroa – Signed 5/11/11 – Granted FA 11/2/11
Jason Botts – Signed 5/19/11 – Granted FA 11/2/11
Miguel Batista – Signed 7/4/11 – Re-Signed 1/10/12
Daniel Herrera (For K-Rod 7/12/11) – Injured
Adrian Rosario (for K-Rod 7/12/11) – St Lucie
Niuman Romero – Signed 7/16/11 – Granted FA 11/2/11
Gustavo Chacin – Signed 7/16/11 – Granted FA 11/2/11
Fernando Perez – Signed 7/18/11 – Granted FA 11/2/11
Mike Baxter (off Waivers 7/22/11) – Granted FA 12/12/11 – Re-Signed 12/16/11
Zach Wheeler (for Beltran 7/28/11) – Binghamton
Adam Loewen – Signed 11/12/11 – Buffalo
Ramon Ramirez (for Pagan 12/7/11) – Bullpen
Andre Torres (For Pagan 12/7/11) – Starter
Lucas May – Signed 12/12/11 – Minors
Garret Olson – Signed 12/12/11 – Minors
Jeremy Hefner – (waivers) – (1 game in relief but looked good) – Binghamton
Chuck James – Signed 12/15/11 – Minors
Rob Johnson – Signed 12/22/11 – Recently Promoted
Omar Quintanilla – Signed 1/3/12 – Minors
Jeff Stevens – Signed 1/4/12 – Minors
Fernando Cabrera – Signed 1/10/12 – Minors
Sean Kazmar – Signed 1/10/12 – Minors
Ronny Cedeno – Signed 1/13/12 – 11 Games .286 BA – Injured – ReActivated
Matt Tuiasosopo – Signed 1/27/12 – Minors
Oswald Navarro – Signed 3/17/12 – Minors
Josh Rodriguez – Signed 3/29/12 – Minors
Bobby Scales – Signed 4/1/12 – Minors
fred Lewis – Signed 4/25/12 – Minors
29 Wasted Signings out of 55 Acquisitions
16 are in the Minors
The other 10 remain. played a game for the MLB franchise and are either hurt or have been demoted due to performance or for injuury Rehab.
Thats pretty much less than a coin flip in signing success!
Nice research.
How does it compare with the other 29 GMs and their signings for the same time period?
So wait, are we criticizing SA now for signing guys to minor league deals and having those players… in the minor leagues?
I wasn’t, no. Or was that response for Metsie?
I just wanted to know on average, how many signings other clubs made, what their % of perceived failure is, etc. I only know about the more publicized signings like Heath Bell and how ineffective he’s been so far, to the point of losing his closing job already.
not a good job acquiring players is……not a good job acquiring players. you Alderson butt kisser you.
zzzzzzzz
you Minaya Muncher you.
No we are chastizing him for the 29 Wasted Signings who if they all just made League Minimum would amount to around 14 Mil in wasted money!
And thats not including Francisco, Carrasco or Young in those payroll numbers!
Um, but you don’t make league minimum unless you are in the majors.
Major League minimum is $480k.
A minor leaguer’s salary in general is $1,100 a month plus meals.
Note i did say IF now didn’t I?
Some of those 29 made MORE than league minimum and some made less!
You want to show how much all those guys spent to justify their signings be my guest Mr Baseball Expert!
This is what your hero has brought here so far!’
Tell us which is part of the LONG TERM PLAN for winning and which is here to help make us better today!
Not sure Srt
It took an hour or two to compile that list and never got motivated to check other teams.
This is mostly compiled from the Transaction List of 2011 and 2012 on BR.
I’ll give you credit. Very ambitious, Metsie.
Hey Metsie where did you get that list from? lol
Compiled from BRef using their list of transactions.
They post links for each player where you can track what they have done and where they are with the exception of the guys listed as “Minors” (no actual team listed) because once they compile MLB stats BR stops tracking their MiL numbers and locations. (I’m sure it can be found just didn’t think it relevant at the time.)
Great job, Metsie..and i notice srt quickly coming to the defense of Alderson, the big time unobjective Alderson butt kisser that she is
Thanks Bay,
I wouldn’t say SRT came to Sandy’s defense he merely asked for a comparison which is fair enough!
But Jessup went all out trying to pull Sandy from any fire my research suggests!
I just listed the facts that I found. I will let others decide, show or disprove whatever it is they think that research shows!
But from Jessup’s reaction it would appear that it is something he would rather I didn’t post!
All I’m pointing out is that more than half our signings have done nothing for the MLB team which is supposed to be Sandy’s MAIN focus!
So far in his favor he has Byrdack and you can (borderline) say Hairston has been ok.
Beato shows some promise
Most of the less wasted signings have either been bandaids, Bench or Injury fill ins.
Torres may be the best acquisition made to date yet as he had a regular starting position.
hahaha! you say jessep is pulling Sandy from the fire? ROFL! That creates some image in my mind and man it’s soooooooooooo true. They will defend their Sandy to the DEATH!
And srt came to Sandy’s rescue so fast as well her heels broke while running. Did anyone really expect you (or anyone for that matter) to do this kind of research for ALL 29 other GMs? Of course not. She was just trying to defend Sandy, no doubt about it!
LOL Well you Know Bayonne I often tell people….
Be careful what you wish for! LOL
I could decide to do a comparison of a couple of teams to show them something to compare it to.
I think they might prefer doing it themselves though because I won’t do the entire MLB and might just pick the teams and examples I like which is what the Sandy folks do all the time!
How many “failed contracts” under the same scenario do the no budget NY Yankees have in the same time period?
Your list didn’t prove anything except that MLB GM’s signed players to minor league deals all the time. They aren’t wasted contracts, you have to field a team in the minors… you use minor league deals in hopes you catch lightning in a bottle but also make your minor leagues better.
11-10: Receive Scott Allen in trade
11-19: Signed Neal Cotts – Released 2-16
11-27: Signed Brian Anderson – Released 5-27
11-27: Signed Andy Sisco – Released 2-18 then signed again 2-19, released 5-27
12-2: Signed Buddy Carlyle – Released 8-18
12-7: Extended Jeter and Mariano
12-15: Signed Mark Prior (FA 11/2),
Russell Martin,
Gustavo Molina (FA 10-3) then signed 12-13,
Doug Bernier – Granted FA 11-2, Signed again 1-5
12-19: Signed Luis Vizcaino
1-3: Signed Pedro Feliciano
1-5: Selected Brian Schlitter off waivers – Lost him on waivers on 2-15
1-18: Signed Rafael Soriano
1-20: Signed Warner Madrigal
1-26: Signed Bartolo Colon – Granted FA 10/30
2-2: Received Justin Maxwell in a trade
2-3: Signed Freddy Garcia – Granted FA 10/30
2-4: Signed Eric Chavez – Granted FA 10/30 – Re-Signed 2-21
2-8: Signed Ronnie Belliard – Released 3-28
2-9: Signed Luis Ayala – Granted FA 10/30
2-14: Signed Andruw Jones – Granted FA 10/30 – Re-Signed 12-31
2-16: Signed Fernando Hernandez – Released 7-4
3-25: Signed Kevin Millwood – Granted FA 5/1
3-25: Traded Mitre and got Chris Dickerson
4-9: Signed Carlos Silva, Released 7-2
5-1: Signed Brad Halsey – Granted FA 11-2
5-6: Selected Jess Todd off waivers, lost him 5-16
5-17: Signed Randy Flores – Released Aug 2
5-25: Selected Kanekoa Texeira off waivers – Released 7-6, Signed again 7-19 – Granted FA 11-2
6-8: Selected Jeff Marquez off waivers – Granted FA 11-2
6-13: Signed Cory Wade
6-13: Signed Greg Smith – Released 8-15
6-15: Signed Brian Gordon
6-23: Signed Mike Lamb – Granted FA 11-2
6-23: Signed Terry Tiffee – Released 8-22
6-29: Signed Logan Kensing – Granted FA 11/2
7-14: Signed JC Romero – Released Aug 8
7-21: Signed Marcus Thames
8-13: Signed Scott Proctor – Granted FA 10-11
8-16: Signed Raul Valdes off waivers – Granted FA 10-11
8-19: Signed aaron Laffey off waivers – Lost to waivers 10-11
11-6: Signed FA Mike O’Oconner
11-23: Signed Jayson Nix
12-28: Signed Hideki Okajima – Released 2-17
1-4: Signed Cole Garner
1-4: Signed Dewayne Wise
1-23: Traded Jesus Montero, Hector Noesi for Jose Campos, Michael Pineda
1-26: Signed Hiroki Kuroda
1-30: Signed Manny Delcarment
2-8: Signed Bill Hall
2-8: Signed Russell Branyan
2-18: Signed Clay Rapada
2-19: Traded Burnett for Diego Moreno and Exicardo Cayones
2-21: Signed Raul Ibanez
2-22: Signed David Aardsma
3-16: Signed Pettitte
3-28: Signed Craig Tatum off waivers
3-28: Signed Jack Cust
3-29: Signed Steve Pearce
4-1: Signed Jason Bulger
HAHAHAHAHA!
You keep running to hide behind the Minor Leaguers!
Please note the equivilent signings that Sandy made that compare on a par to:
Jeter
Rivera
Colon (Gave you an easy one to compare because I feel nice!)
Garcia
Chavez
Andruw Jones
Maybe even Pettite soon enough….
The education system has failed you miserably. You do not know how to read, she never defended SA at all, unless of course you are just starting crap for the sake of it. Go take another toke.
No, it wasn’t. It was an epic disaster. You’re bring too kind.
Relievers are the one of the most inconsistant bunch to try and forcast. Years ago I assumed that all relievers were failed starters, that may not be the case any more but alot of these guys do have hitches be it a limited arsenal or limited staying power. Francisco is an enigma because he has dominate stretches and very poor stretches this makes him a bad closer he may be better suited to a setup role.
It was a lot worse to be there and see it live!…..A fat contract and a fat 6.59 ERA to match!
Nice work if you can find it!
I’d start the demotion either now or maybe the very next time he blows it.
Trade his ass and promote Parnell or Rauch to the position.
No business losing that game last night!!!
They should just go back to giving Parnell the closer’s role. At least he is under team control til 2015 and if he manages to take the role by the horns will solve the problem long term!
Yes he failed last year under the pressure and there is no reason to believe he won’t repeat that again.
But he has seemingly changed his approach and started pitching more and he can’t be any more of a coin flip than Francisco!
Words escape me except to say, Boy Have We Seen This Story Before!
Yes, this is a sequel! It’s called: The Return of Benitez: Armando’s Agony!
“We all know that Terry holds players accountable, and he will not sit idly and let any one player lose games for us. Francisco better get his act together or we may begin to see some changes to the back end of our bullpen.”
Agreed, when they signed Rauch & Francisco they wanted to give themselves choices at closer. Parnell’s good Spring and season thus far which in part is attributed to the work last year’s signing Izzy did with him makes Parnell also a consideration.
Could be worse he could be blowing games at a Heath Bell level.
Thanks for the laughs xtreemicon. Defending Alderon’s rotten move is sad enough but defending this fraud of a closer makes you out as nothing but a Sandy Alderson butt boy, which you must be to write the baloney you did for this failed closer. He lost his closing job last year for a reason and it wasn’t because Kirk missed a ball.
Such petty comments. Nice article though.
I’m guessing you’re not a regular here. When it comes to something Sandy Alderson related, you’ll get back & forth comments like this. Don’t expect a level-headed, decent debate between fans. Some don’t have the temerity to do that.
Now, on to the article….
Sigh. Second guessing at it’s finest. Look, EVERYONE knew what they were dealing with when acquiring Francisco (Alderson, FO, fans, etc.). Francisco is NOT closer material. I liked the signing, but not him being closer. He’s a middle reliever at best. If anyone should’ve been the closer, it was the guy who signed with the Mets the same day Francisco was signed. The guy who, outside of a few bad outings, has been decent for the Mets out of the pen. That’s Jon Rauch. Rauch at least would/could be suitable enough to be a closer until Parnell is capable of taking over.
I know what you’re thinking. “What about Edgin?” The guy with an ERA near 10 right now in Buffalo? No. Leave the man alone. Best thing to do now in this situation is to switch roles with Rauch & Francisco to preserve some wins OR keep a close eye on Fernando Cabrera or even Jack Edgbert and send down Francisco to AAA (if possible). We have multiple pen options in Buffalo.
Thanks for the discoarse. I have followed this site. The article was focused and the discussion got too global.
Francisco remindes me of Benitez. His body language speaks of rage and collapse. He seems too moody to be relied on. Much of the Buffalo relief talent is in thier 30′s. Crafty veterans who may not fool major league hitters. Surely they would be better than Acosta.
Mejia may be the forgotten man. He too is rehabing with Young. I would like to see both men to be give a shot at starting.
Dickey is my choice for closer. The man is a Jedi. A warrior. He could probably pitch three innning saves three times a week. He is often lights out twice through the batting order. By the sixth inning the hitters catch up to him. Dickey would be awesome in the role. Just think how much better the bulpen would be if we didn’t need to use four relievers every night.
Next year Harvey and Famila arrive. So help is on the way.
Hi Metsi,
Thanks so much for providing a detailed list of ALL the Met transactions made during the Alderson regime and my not having to go into one of my typical 800 word replies to the comment ” this move might be the first mistake Alderson has made as Mets GM”.
Of all those moves, is the best we can come up with is perhaps Byrdak? Or with his replacement of nearly half the roster for 2011, all we were were able to come up with was a 77-85 record, while it was mostly those who were already in the organization prior to 2011 – not those near dozen signings – responsible for us going 51-38 before finishing up at 22-34 to end the season (in Sandy’s defense, there were those injuries to Niese and Murphy but the team was stumbling at 5-17 after reaching that season peak a few days after Beltran was gone).
As far as KRod is concerned, he had four bad performances out of seventeen this season. And the last I looked, Carlos Betran was leading the league in home runs and was second in runs batted in while batting .307. Yes, being committing to both for another one or two years would have thrown a real monkey wrench into our rebuilding program. How old is Torres? How old is Francisco? Aren’t they secured with two years?
If it’s simply that the Mets don’t have the money to spend, it isn’t Alderson’s fault. If they actually did, then these moves don’t speak well of computer analysis, money ball, Sandy’s own baseball smarts or the ones Sandy depends upon for those moves.
K rod was all about the money for this year. That and he was a heart attack on a stick most of the time too.
Beltran, don’t forget the extended period where he was injured, and that the knee is supposed to be chronic. certainly he is having a great start, but it remains to be seen how well the knees can hold up to the use. I really like the guy, and hope he can stay upright (as long of course as it doesn’t hurt the mets!), and was surprised he did not go to the AL. But at the same time, it would not surprise me if he broke down.
Still, the deal for the Cards was reasonable, since it was only 2 years. And he might have still been in play for the Mets if they did not have Bay clogging up the works!
Hi Stick,
We will never know what direction the team would be heading had the financial situation been different. But if things were different, we could ask.
Would KRod and Beltran still be with us? Perhaps (depending upon Carlos still wanting to stay in New York for reasons other than financial). If we still had Carlos could we have concentrated on obtained better pitching help for Pagan since we did not need another outfielder to replace him? Certainly. Would we be a better team with KRod the closer instead of Francisco and Beltran in center instead of Torres (even with Beltran being slower a foot, taking into account Torres injuries and being only one year younger than Beltran)? Based on both their track records through last year when both came back strong and how they are performing so far, the answer is quite obvious.
But we must also ask if these moves would have been good for the team in the long term. What if we didn’t have Zach Wheeler? The answer depends upon what one thinks of the kids on the team now and down on the farm. Would being committed to KRod and Beltran thus derail our “rebuilding” efforts by not allowing he kids to come up and begin playing? No more than the two years already committed to Torres and Francisco.
So again, if finances were what they should be for a big market team, still giving us the financial advantage to do things smaller market teams cannot, would we have made the decisions we did last season and over the winter? Could we have not still made our future the number one priority while still fielding even a better team with the kids we have today and those two veterans remaining with us? I think so. Why not?
I’m going to wear my Lawyer hat for a second here Joey….
Forget the Beltran trade for now. It isn’t a bad deal on it’s own it maybe wasn’t the best return but it is not a mistake itself merely a symptom of the mistake made by Giving Up on last year.
It wasn’t the Beltran trade on it’s own that put a Damper on what might have happened it is just a result of the ACTUAL mistake…Giving up on a team playing great baseball.
It didn’t cause the mistake it was caused by the mistake.
So lets take the Wheeler bit out of the discussion.
Focus on the K-Rod deal if you want to take about what might have happened.
Bobby Parnell was doing quite well before K-Rod was traded.
First Half 2-1 2.92 ERA 23 G 24H 10R 8 ER 9 BB 1IBB 30K 1.338 WHIP (noted to make Donal Happy!)
Second half (Post K-Rod) 2-5 4.15ERA 37G 36H 19R 16ER 18BB 3IBB 34K 1.558 WHIP
So if you want to talk about possible WHAT IF scenarios focus on this:
What would our record be if K-Rod remained the closer and Parnell maintained his pre-trade numbers as the 8th inning setup man.
What would the record have been then? What would our playoff chances have been?
Don’t let them change the subject as they always try to by saying they saved 17.5 Mil this year because they didn’t really save a thing on this year. K-Rod’s only goal/choice (to remain a closer) was to waive the option either with us or with a team he got traded to in order to get someone to continue to play him where he wanted to play without worry of the option getting in their way!
He even fired his Agent because he played games with Sandy and didn’t do what K-Rod requested which was to get the Option out of the way so no matter what happened there was no reason to NOT use him as a closer!
As for what I think was key effect was it caused Parnell to panic as the closer for which he was not ready for and he had K-Rod who was a very similar pitcher to him to help mentor him and once he was gone he had no one but Isringhausen to turn to who is a good veteran but has no recent experience with blowing hitters away with his power arm the way K-Rod did!
With a full year as the setup man to K-Rod perhaps Parnell doesn’t implode from the pressure, gains the confidence he needs and maybe we don’t need to spend all we spent on Francisco, as resigning K-Rod or someone to take the 8th inning role (because we did not lose faith in Parnell) which would make the Rauch deal fine, the Francisco deal unneccesary and the Ramirez deal nothing more than a bench augmentation by getting two players for one!
WE also might have gotten compensation for K-Rod if he signed elsewhere because he would have the saves that might have brought him up to Type A status instead of his eventual Type B!
Of course for an extra 2 Mil we could have maybe resigned K-Rod as well if having those saves did not increase his value as well!
If you look at it from that perspective we still have Wheeler, Parnell doesn’t get demoted in the FO’s mind and we would have a very different focus in the offseason maybe enough of a change to go after a starter to fall back on or to replace Gee, as a fall back option if Santana didn’t do what he is doing or to make up for the loss of Pelfrey!
Hi Metsi,
By wearing your lawyer hat you’re also showing that you’re looking at both sides of the equation and now just making rash statements. One has to understand the opposing view point in order to both appreciate it and to make a valid argument against it (gather you took Law 101 with me, right?
.
As you caught on, I was indeed asking “what if” but I was addressing it in terms of those arguments made about us moving ahead and being better off without KRod and Beltran in the long term scheme of things. Like you, I was questioning the philosophy behind those deals if it wasn’t a matter of financial desperation (which I have reservations about). I was presenting my thoughts in terms of the Mets simply keeping KRod (bonus and all) and re-signing Beltran for two years like St. Louis (of course, if he was willing to stay in New York and didn’t want out of here).
I understand your point – had we retained KRod but went ahead with the Beltran trade, our pitching scenario would have been different and Parnell would have benefited the most as an individual. Even moreso, with KRod gone, it put pressure on both, the entire pitching staff in pressing more to not give up runs instead of sticking to their game, and the hitters in pressing harder to drive in runs themselves instead of retaining the confidence that they didn’t have to place that pressure all on top of themselves and knew their teammates could pick up for each other. So your are right that giving up Beltran was the lesser of two evils because it was the loss of KRod that really applied pressure to both. We averaged the same amount of runs with Beltran as we did without him but needed more because with KRod, our bullpen was blowing games in the late innings.
So that blew our chances for 2011 – or at least took the opportunity away from the players to show the front office it was not justified to have such a lack of confidence in themselves as a unit.
But I think had we been able to retain both, Pagan could have been traded to help bolster a pitching staff still anchored by an ace closer. We could not do such because trading Pagan put a hole in our outfield that the front office believed was not yet ready to be filled by the kids for another two years. So, I think sending both players off has hurt us whereas retaining both would have tremendously helped us in the moves the front office could make – without giving up on our future.
And as we have seen, the roster spots have been filled mostly with players north of the age of thirty. If we had Beltran (with Kirk and others waiting in the wings) who knows – we could have sent Pagan packing to the pitching rich Giants for Wheeler this past winter. Under that scenario, we MIGHT have been able to have the best of all worlds – KRod, Beltran and Wheeler after all.
The possibilities are endless and this is all mere speculation of course. But I think we could have had much more stronger had either the financial circumstances – or the baseball mindset not caused it – or the because we could have traded Pagan for more pitching rather than for a center field replacement and with KRod as closer, could have shored up our middle relief beyond just the Rauch and Francisco signings cause Parnell could be eased into the set-up role and Pagan used as trade bait for some more middle inning insurance.
We just saw the bullpen moves made this winter again cost a starter another wasted good effort. We’ve been seeing it all season long. Again, could we have done better?
I agree we probably would have been better with K-Rod and Beltran in the long term.
But if you look at the Beltran deal on it’s own it’s only the problem it is BECAUSE of the previous deal for K-Rod that did more to kill the remaining season performance than Beltran did!
Even if we kept Beltran chances are that we still blow all those games the Pen blew post K-Rod!
Maybe there would have been more opportunities for that Pen to blow games if Beltran remained and maybe he adds enough to win a few games in cases where the Pen wasn’t the key factor in the game!
What I’m getting at is the CAUSE of the problems and both trades is the mistake og “Giving Up” not the actual trades themselves individually.
As single deals you can make a case for both, but as a group it is what illustrates the initial mistake!
Many associate the Beltran trade with when we gave up!
But ask yourself, “How many teams who think they may still have a shot trade their frontline Closer?”
And considering what just happened today I can’t wait to hear the excuses made for Sandy’s Good Day being good!
Truth is these guys don’t know good players if they bit them in the butt!
Which makes you wonder just how good is Wheeler really if they thought he was worth surrendering a season for!
We already seen what they thought a great and consistent closer was worth in trade!
Even if we were 50 games out of it in July the bottomline remains here.
What has left is 10 times better than what we have got back or brought in!
And that speaks driectly to evaluation of what a player is capable of!
Wheeler hasn’t failed yet but he also hasn’t succeeded!
The only reason why people still cling to that deal being good is because it hasn’t had time to show the failure yet!
Unlike the GREAT DAY Sandy had when he focused on IMPROVING the pen!
If this is what he thinks is improvement I hoipe he starts trying to make the pen the worst in baseball we might run away with the NL east if he did!
METSI -
Meant “not making rash statements”, not “NOW making rash statements”.
All I can add with confidence is that very little of the many moves made by Sandy or those underneath him have helped the club at all.
Hi Metsi,
Yup, when KRod was sent packing I felt more than just there goes the season. It was going to have ripple effects throughout on the pitching staff, hitters and maturation of our kids. Beltran was really the final straw.
Too bad you weren’t on chat as the bullpen blew it again today. I openly stated the responsibility for the situation clearly rested on Sandy’s shoulders which, of course, opened up the flood gates. Fortunately, everyone was on their best behavior so it was simply a matter of a heated and passionate debate – no name calling.
It was the usual back and forth between us. The reasons for Sandy’s defense were: who else was he going to get; what did not having KRod have to do with this now; all teams have shaky pens; Sandy has not had enough time to do things; that Omar was a worse general manager who cost the Mets a lot more money than Sandy has.
My reply was that Sandy is considered the grandfather of computer analysis and money ball and was supposed to have a keen insight into identifying undervalued talent and that so far most all the player moves made under his regime have not helped but hindered the team. I was asked if I read the book “money ball” and simply pointed out that there is no Bible outlining the principles to adhere to and that the methodology was plastered all over the web and that Sandy was emphasizing his immediate goal was to reduce the payroll because the large sum of money committed to just a few ballplayers was hindering how that money could be used and it could be better spent being spread among more people. Only one on the other side of the fence met me half way by agreeing Sandy’s moves MIGHT have been made more due to financial rather than baseball player considerations. That’s all the middle ground I think we need ask for.
Omar and Sandy have to be judged on their own merits. For whatever reasons one wants to say about how bad Omar was, the same principles have to apply to the job Sandy has done in his place. I also brought up the fact that the Wilpons hired both of them – suggesting we value the wisdom of both hirings based upon those on top.
Again, these disagreements were kept civil and not made personal.
Then in Sandy’s defense, and that even with the financial restraints, So I was questioned if I had read the book and understood money ball to which I replied that book was not a Bible and the principles behind money ball was splattered all over the web.
The bottom line is that w
** forget about that last paragraph – didn’t realize it was there after addressing the issue in an earlier paragraph and thus didn’t delete it.