22
2012
Morning Grind: We Sure Could Use Someone Like Angel Pagan In Centerfield Right Now
An article by 
Alright, I’ve gone too long without a good rant and after a loss like last night’s stinker against the Bucs, today’s as good a day as any.
Let me begin with Andres Torres who has stunk up the joint considerably since his hot week after coming off of the disabled list. Torres is now batting .189 on the season and is 4-42 in his last 11 games started – all of them batting in the leadoff spot. For the season, Torres is batting .132 as the leadoff hitter. For a team that is struggling to score runs, how can Terry Collins continue to feature this 34-year old journeyman at the top of the order and give him more at-bats than any other player on the team day after day?
As I said when we first got him in the trade for Pagan, anointing Torres as the leadoff hitter after coming off a season that saw him bat .221 was a terrible idea. The Giants were all set to cut bait with Andres Torres and it was no secret he was about to become homeless before Sandy Alderson and the Mets showed up and saw him as the perfect replacement for Jose Reyes at the top of the order. Oh and please spare me the need to look at Reyes’ stats right now it doesn’t change the fact that this front office saw Torres as a viable option to replace him back in December. It was a bad idea then and it’s a bad idea now. Oh, and where’s this blazing speed we’ve been hearing about?
Meanwhile, our old friend Angel Pagan is having a terrific season for the Giants and is batting .302/.352/.463 with eight doubles, two triples and four home runs in 39 games played. In 162 at-bats, the former Met has scored 21 runs and racked up 49 hits, 12 walks and eight stolen bases with just one caught stealing. Pagan is currently outproducing every Met outfielder.
The key to that deal for the Mets of course was not Andres Torres, but reliever Ramon Ramirez who currently sports a 4.30 ERA and a 1.565 WHIP in 18 appearances for the Mets spanning 23.2 innings. Revamped bullpen my asterisk.
Quick, somebody do the math…
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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Wait, joe D, are you second guessing now? or were you part of the crew that actually vomit at the thought of having andres torres as a player on the team lead alone leadoff?
With that being said, don’t tell that to some people in here who see no wrong on anything sandy does, he’s the almighty one, good for pagan, he’s not a bad guy as some people had him pegged to be, too bad we’re stuck with that PO-s torres and Ramirez who’s anything BUT an elite reliever as some said.. Funny how it seemed yesterday when that post came up about sandy having a good day for acquiring ramirez AND torres…
Alex, that’s not how I roll. I wrote this on the night of the trade:
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/12/andres-torres-as-an-everyday-centerfielder-and-leadoff-hitter-is-a-bad-idea.html
Yep both Joe and I were the first to question the trade…
Pagan despite his fielding issues last year had up until last year always been a very good fielder! His problem was he took his bat into the field with him.
And his bat while down from what could be his career year of 2010 was STILL better than Torres’ was last year! And he certainlprofile some suggested was better in that Pagan was much younger than Torres an old past his prime Vet.
People who thought it was a GOOD DAY trade tried to say ramirez was the key piece and Torres was merely a 4th OF at best. A tune they re-wrote the lyrics too recently when Ramirez sucked and Torres was hot for two weeks after coming back from being injured….
I had mixed feelings about the trade at the time. I thought the Mets were giving up too much and taking a big risk giving up an every day centerfielder who could hit and had tremendous speed for an older and obviously lesser centerfielder but because of the bullpen problem I thought perhaps the trade might still help us. With Pagan now 31, he might not have been seen as part of the Met future either. I was also wondering if Pagan’s concentration problems were returnng as shown with his poor instincts in the field and the base paths which was absent in 2010.
So I might have messed up weighing the pros and cons but then again, I’m not in Sandy Alderson’s/Paul DePodesta’s position so it doesn’t matter.
My issue was less about the trade Joey and more to do with how it was being characterized by some as a GOOD DAY in hopes no one noticed that on the same day Reyes agreed to sign the Marlins offer!
It was a diversionary trade if you ask me and if not for the other events that made the team worse might not have been as bad as it actually has turned out.
Pagan did not really have a down year with the bat when you look at him directly. What he did was come back to his normal average!
various injuries and back to his .270 BA. It was only down when compared to his great year the year before!
The issue of it is the stated goal was to make the team younger and we made it older, The guy we got to replace him had an even worse bat than Pagan and there was no other deal or attempt made to get a better CF/Leadoff hitter to rely on!
Torres was there to be the answer to the question of “Who is your leadoff Hitter now that Reyes has left” He was not an improvement over Pagan amd truth is he might not even be a better leadoiff guy than Pagan.
Pagan probably is better at stealing bases than he is!
Pagan currently has 8 SB with 1 CS a .302 BA and .351 OBP
Torres currently has 1 SB with 1 CS and a .189 BA .333 OBP
SO he didn’t really replace ANYONE at all…He is less of a Leadoff than Pagan and sure isn’t the hitter Pagan has been!
Only way this deal works is if Ramirez is done blowing games for us and truth is he is only getting mop up assignments now!
Hi Metsi,
I didn’t want to mention this for the flack it might have led to, but I actually thought the bottom line reason for the trade was all about money more than player personnel.
Pagan was entering his fourth season arbitration year. Based on 2012 salaries, instead of a $4.8 million for one player (Pagan) for approximately a half million more, the Mets got two ($2.70 million for Torres to replace Pagan in center and $2.65 million for Rameriz to add to the bullpen).
But even with the financial consideration that I believed was the deciding issue, I still could see the trade possibly working out for us.
Joe D, I knew you weren’t second guessing. Most of us knew this was a disaster waiting to happen, and as metsie pointed out, back then it was all about ramirez and torres was a thrown in, but as metsie said:
“A tune they re-wrote the lyrics too recently when Ramirez sucked and Torres was hot for two weeks after coming back from being injured….”
this is what these sandy lovers do, look for the impossible way to make this awful GM’s desicion and moves look good
I am on here “all the time” and I have yet to see a ton of post saying that Torres wasn’t a throw in and that the deal wasn’t built around Ramirez. I know that I wasn’t one of them. I still like Ramirez and think he will be a good pick up.
When the discussion was about Torres (and he was the first one we all focused on when the trade happened) all the responses were about Ramirez….
Once the discussion started regarding Ramirez the same folks started talking about how great Torres was doing!
It’s all there readily available to read if you just make the effort to do so!
“the same folks” “they” “them” “those guys”
Could perhaps name some and actually link us to what you mean?
Who? Call them out Metsie. Knowing that you won’t provide any actual quotes or work, if you tell me who then I will provide them for you. Otherwise you are just blowing smoke.
Donal, Xtreeme and jessup….
The Three Horsemanures of the Sandypocalypse!
Don’t have time to search the site today….
So you can look for what they have said….
Quotes have been provided in the past only to be ignored and run from so I don’t see the point in providing them again….
Everyone knows fuil well what they said which is why they ahve gone scarce recently now that the eggs they were counting on have started hatching dead Fowl!
I am trying but I can’t seem to find even one quote from them saying the trade was about Torres.
trs: Here is what I said on December 7th. The famous blog that my biggest fans love bringing up. I’m not sure how this translates into what Metsie is accusing me of….
“Second, I don’t expect Torres to be some magical hitter, or even better with the stick than Pagan. What I do expect is that he will be a much better fielder. I’ve been saying that for the Mets, and mostly any NL team I’d prefer the roster be built with strong bats at the corners, and defensive minded at 2B/SS/CF and somewhere in the middle behind the dish.
Torres in CF should make Bay and Duda better in the OF, assuming Duda is the starting RF. The other thing I like about Torres is that Giants fans liked him. When a player of his offensive caliber is “liked” by the team’s fans that tells you something. Here’s a quote from a friend of mine,
“I like Torres a lot. Great guy, great glove, lots of speed, a little pop, and draws walks. Strikes out a lot and probably won’t hit for average. Split the difference between his career year in 2010 and his disaster last year and you still have a pretty valuable player given his gold glove D and the walks. He has struggled with ADHD his whole life and it sounded like the Giants were worried about that and lost faith in him last year.”
In 2010, Andres Torres was awarded the Willie Mac award by the San Francisco Giants, which is given to the player who best exemplifies the spirit and leadership consistently shown by McCovey throughout his long career, voted upon by the players and coaching staff.”
Thats because your looking for the wrong thing….
No one said they thought the trade was about Torres…
They originally used Ramirez to JUSTIFY the trade and two weeks ago when Ramirez was under fire they used Torres’ hot bat to Justify it.
Where, I have been looking and still can’t find one recent quote either saying that the trade was about Torres.
You’re not going to, at least about me, because it never happened. Metsie’s a pathological liar and sociopath and the entire site knows it. A week ago he said that I went to other sites and posted there looking for “backup.” I don’t even know what that means, but I asked even for even a shred of proof, and as usual, he’s got nothing.
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/05/mets-readying-a-long-term-deal-for-david-wright.html
Of course you refuse to back up your statement.
In other surprising news, fire is still hot.
No I back it up all the time…
I just don’t let Kiddies tell Adults what to do!
And you my friend are nothing but a kiddie who is tough behind a keyboard!
Have to go don’t have time mto waste on children but before I go here is your Wet Rag to put on your face!
“You complained about Torres who’s been excellent since he came off the DL. Are you eating humble pie?”
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2012/05/deja-vu-all-over-again-mets-rally-bullpen-blows-it-mets-fall-8-4.html
Just another Child I stopped responding to!
Have fun chewing on that Egg on your face there Donal!
So, Fonzie (who you didn’t mention) says that Torres was playing well and suddenly that means the trade was about Torres?
So somebody else says something positive about Torres and that means “Donal, Xtreeme and jessup….The Three Horsemanures of the Sandypocalypse!” said it?
I did notice you mentioned my name 4 times in that thread. And I’m sorry to upset you but on May 14th I was working a golf tournament at a PGA course so I couldn’t take part in your attempt to attack me.
1) I didn’t say that stuff, Fonzie did
2) Torres was playing well to that point
3) Acknowledging Torres played well is not the same as saying he was the centerpiece of the trade.
Most intelligent baseball people realized that Torres was a throw in and that deal was about Ramirez for Pagan. In case you haven’t noticed while Pagan has recently caught fire he’s still misplaying balls in CF and costing the Giants a lot of runs and still making horrendous decisions on the basepaths. The Giants are, lets see currently in the same position as the Mets at 22-20, so how is Pagan making the Giants better?
To think that some here thought that Torres (CF) and Duda (RF) would be as productive as Pagan and Beltran is the joke of the year. Since the takeover, the quality has been replaced with mediocrity or worse.
BINGO!
If Beltran was resigned we wouldn’t be talking about Ike’s struggles right now, He would have stayed in St Lucie till he got sorted out, Duda would be playing 1st and Beltran would be leading the team in RBI right now!
For the measly price of 13 Mil per…
Just about the same amount Sandy has spent trying to fix the pen!
Yup you could have done that and not brought in anyone for the pen. Of course Beltran could have gotten injured like he did in San Fran. Either way, then you would have been complaining about how Sandy did nothing to fix the pen.
Pretty much a no win situation full of assumptions. Why would Beltran choose the Mets and the Wilpons over the defending WS champs. Can you come up with one scenario why he would have chosen the Mets?
OH you mean like I can’t complain he didn’t fix the pen NOW?
Really?
I would not have complained about resigning Beltran at all!
But since when has fact ever been required when you make your excuses for what Sandy did?
Tell me who is the better leadoff guy right now? Who would you rather have coming up last night with the game on the line? Pagan? .303 BA or Torres (below the mendoza line!)?
With Beltran maybe Santana has a bigger cushion to not worry about giving up one HR.
“can you come up with one scenario why he would have chosen the Mets?”
Yep! We offered him the same money he got at St Louis without the expense of having to move!
OK well that’s certainly reasonable. He obviously would have chosen staying with the same team that he believes screwed up his rehab and insulted him in the process while taking less money (taxes are a bich in NY) to continue to play for the Mets instead of the WS champions. Yup. Got it.
Yeah WS champions…Whats their record right now?
They stopped being champions the second they let Pujols go! It’s not the same team!
They have one more win than us despite all his good work which says to me if he was here he might be on a team with a better record!
Just count all the times Ike failed as the cleanup hitter and insert Beltran instead!
For every game you believe Ike cost us with his bat thats a game that we might win if Beltran is still here!
Quite a few games turn on that I bet!
True, IMO they should have traded for David Price. I think the rotation would have looked much better. Of course I think they had as much chance trading for Price as they did getting Beltran to come back but that’s a side note.
Again, do you think Beltran would have viewed the Mets or the Cards as more of a contender ?LOL.
“They stopped being champions the second they let Pujols go! It’s not the same team!”
They have scored the most runs in the NL. How is Albert doing right now?
“They have one more win than us despite all his good work which says to me if he was here he might be on a team with a better record!”
They also happen to be in first place.
Also, the Cardinals have had much better pitching than us. They have just had terrible luck in low scoring close games, where as we’ve had some good luck there.
And who is driving them in? the guy you said was done!
Not worth having anymore…LOL
Again, you have to lie about me. Does it ever get tiring?
Did I say Beltran was done or not worth the money? Or did I say Beltran had little reason to stay here and the Mets could not commit to the kind of deal he would get?
No your problem is you never say ANYTHING Donal you just insult the guys who are having the conversation in support of the guy who DID say Beltran was done!
Sorry but if you think your going to get everyone to go and look at all your old quotes everyday as your only method of extricating yourself from the side you took it’s not going to work.
We could just as easily request you to post your quotes where you said you wanted him!
You won’t find any of those because You hardly ever say anything baseball and usually just jump into arguments with others and back them up by saying something snide about one side of that argument!
Which is why for the most part I ignore you!
Well maybe if the “Great Omar” who all of a sudden is giving a few people on this site a hard on, didn’t ink Jason Bay to that idiotic deal, maybe just maybe Beltran would still be a Met.
Yep Torres last 9 games have been terrible. He is 1 for 32 in that stretch. Can’t have him hit a buck something anywhere in the lineup let alone the leadoff spot. The Torres of the 1st 10 games after coming back was much better. Probably something in the middle of those 2 may be what we end up getting, or not.
The bigger concern is Ramirez which was the key part of the Pagan trade who has not pitched anywhere near what he did lat year at this time for San Francisco. There is a lot of baseball left to be played and ample time to see if Ramirez an get back to pitching the way he did last year.
Hindsight being what it is, we cannot forget the Madoff Mess that helped shape how this team is currently constructed. Had that not been a factor, Pagan may still have been a Met. So may have Reyes. Even Beltran if you want to go bonkers. Either way, yes, I wish this team had better players, but Alderson did what he deemed necessary. Turning Pagan’s salary into 2 players salaries (Torres and Ramirez) at the time was a good move, specifically to help rebuild the bullpen and have a temp in CF until Kirk got here. And honestly, the Kapt. K should prob. play over Torres, but with out Bay, it’s all hands on deck for the OF. (Just writing that makes me puke a little in my mouth).
This is not a Praise Sandy post. This is a “what real choices were available given the restrictions this team was (& still is) working under” post.
oh yes it is,
You’re just doing anything you can to defend Alderson. That is exactly what you’re doing.
Bernie Madoff isn’t making these decisions in the Mets front office, Alderson is
How you cannot see the dotted line between “The Mets don’t have money” and the moves Alderson made at the time is simply amazing to me.
I always thought it was just cataracts. That’s why he sees or doesn’t see the baseball stuff he thinks he does and the stats are all blurry, so they aren’t legible. Just a theory.
Madoff had very little to do with this deal as did financial constraints. Let me explain and then I would like to get your thoughts on that as well.
A very under-reported fact to the trade was that the Mets also sent cash to the Giants along with Pagan. When I asked them how much cash, I was simply told the amount was yet to be determined.
Another thing. If you are a regular reader of this site, then you know my position that this trade and the two signings of Rauch and Francisco were merely setup to be distractions to the Reyes signing with the Marlins. They were intended to be a smokescreen and to try and minimize the PR hit they knew they would get after Reyes.
Here’s a fact that other people on the Mets media list will back me up on.
Whenever the Mets make a trade or signing, the official press releases don’t get sent to us until a day or two after it’s been widely reported.
On the night that Jose Reyes was traded, those of us on the Mets media list received three emails withing that same hour. They were press releases that the Mets had made a trade and signed two players.
Jon Heyman or Ken Rosenthal didn’t break this news, the Mets did and it was a shock to everyone involved including everyone at the Winter Meetings. I couldn’t believe it.
So while Alderson was meeting with reporters after he arrived at the hotel and was told Reyes had just signed and wanted his reaction, the Mets were already busy typing out press releases.
These moves were reactionary and not really well thought out. All three moves had problems upon closer examination.
By the way, the Mets press release never mentioned the cash. I have an MLB PressPass access and I went to compare the Giants press release that they posted on PressPass a day later and noticed their headline said Giants get Pagan plus cash. So that prompted me to ask the Mets what was up with that.
Now put two and two together.
Love ya, Joe but I just can’t buy into the timing of losing Reyes and those trade deals. I know you’ve stated your case on this before and it’s well thought out. I’m just no thinking how anyone could believe those trades could possibly be a distraction for losing Reyes.
This FO holds their cards closer to their vest then previous ones did.
Well SRT what made the backpage that day? Reyes leaving or the Trade?
You think Sandy cares what we think? Hardly!
But he does care how things lookm in the papers and that trade wqas timed to make all the met stories about the trade not the loss of Reyes….
‘You think Sandy cares what we think? Hardly!’
This, Metsie. Which again, is why I don’t think losing Reyes had anything to do with the timing of the trade. If you believed Rubin, Pagan was as good as gone. That and we all knew the FO was going to revamp that BP.
Well some would argue why wasn’t he talking to Reyes to try and keep him during that time….
Maybe if he had not rushed to sign the pen he did he would have gotten better players for less money?
You have to admit the money he gave Francisco is unprecedented in Sandy’s short time here!
I think he gave him that money to get that extra distraction piece in time to take press space away from the reyes signing…
He could have waited and got Francisco cheaper because no one else was offerring him that much money!
Ah… Conspiracy theories. Us history teachers love them.
‘Maybe if he had not rushed to sign the pen he did he would have gotten better players for less money?
Very possible, looking at some of the other FA signings. That of course, would require a bit of hindsight to know how it all would have went down. No one has that crystal ball.
Still don’t think it supports the conspiracy theory of being a distraction for losing Reyes.
“This FO holds their cards closer to their vest then previous ones did.”
This.
Also I just can’t read anything into the omission of cash in the Mets press release. Especially not that it was somehow on purpose.
…on purpose to somehow try to hide something.
Why couldn’t that trade and signing come before reyes signed then? how convinient eh?
Before, after, during……
What difference does it make?
I still believe that trade was going through no matter when the timing of it came down.
Un huh, of course you do…
So you are saying if they re-signed Reyes they wouldn’t have needed a bullpen pitcher and wouldn’t have made that trade? If anything they would have HAD to make the trade because they wouldn’t have had the money to sign an BP pieces.
Maybe with Reyes they have a 4 run lead in the 7th not a two run lead….
Who can say?
Same argument can be made about Beltran! He’s pretty hot and would be leading the team in RBI (even more thasn Wright has!)
Would allow us to have a good hitter in the cleanup spot solving the issue of putting Ike lower in the order and maybe win a few of those games the Pen gave up because we have a bigger lead.
You missed the question. I am saying that if they signed Reyes or Beltran they would have still needed a reliever and more than likely it would have had to be done by trade so if anything this trade would have been MORE likely if Reyes had re-signed.
And you miss the point would any other Pen they got (and there were plenty of FAs available) be any worse than what we DID get?
Is replacing a non-working car with a non-working car any worse WITH reyes than without?
I will point out that as it stands the Pen is being replaced by guys who were already here!
Hefner and Schwinden (and maybe soon mejia) would not have cost players or any more money at all and those are the options as it stands today!
You keep assuming we needed to get SOMEONE but thats hardly relevent considering we got nothing ANYWAY! Might as well spend the money for nothing on something and deal with the pen in other ways!
So again if Sandy had re-signed Reyes and went in house for the pen and they were blowing saves you would have said nothing? LOL.
Alex sorry bro but if you expect me to believe the reason the moves were made were only to offset the Reyes it isn’t going to happen.
The Mets made the moves most likely when they did for the same reason that Reyes made his decision when he did. It happened to be the start of the winter meetings. You and anyone else can believe otherwise and one day may even be proven right but until that time while it’s a plausible and nice theory my take is that part of the offseason plan all along was to try and upgrade the pen.
Alex sorry bro but if you expect me to believe the reason the moves were made were only to offset the Reyes news, well it isn’t going to happen.
The Mets made the moves most likely when they did for the same reason that Reyes made his decision when he did. It happened to be the start of the winter meetings. You and anyone else can believe otherwise and one day may even be proven right but until that time while it’s a plausible and nice theory my take is that part of the off season plan all along was to try and upgrade the pen.
My bad i though the 1st post didn’t go thru when i submitted the 2nd one.
I see you posted this twice. Is that because you’re having a problem loading this site, this morning? Reason I’m asking is, I am. I’ve had to kill it and click back in to get some comments to post.
I’m having the same problem SRT.
Hi North,
Talk about ME repeating myself. LOL.
Just a tease – couldn’t resist it.
I’ve been having trouble also with posting but when I submitted them a second time got a message it was a duplicate one.
Joey
Yes me too SRT….
Love ya, Joe but I just can’t buy into the timing of losing Reyes and those trade deals”
Didn’t they happen like 24 hours or less after the reyes debacle??? Are yo that blindly in love with this FO that you can’t see how awful they have been!?
This FO holds their cards closer to their vest then previous ones did.”
Is that why they overpaid for FFF and Rauch? Seriously, some people need to stay out of the sun in the desert!!!
‘Blindly in love with the FO’…..LOL.. No, but thanks for playing Alex.
For the record: I don’t care when the timing of this trade went down. What difference does it make? It was happening no matter when, and it wasn’t going to distract any Met fan from losing Reyes.
‘This FO holds their cards closer to their vest then previous ones did.”
Not sure you understand what I was saying here.
Holding your cards closer to your vest implies the FO has locked down speculation until they’re ready to discuss with the media and anyone else what plans are for going forward. Hence the reason the media had not reported on that trade until it was a done deal.
It has nothing to do with overpaying for FAs.
Joe, makes sense (or should I say cents) what you say. But I would counter with this: Who wouldn’t want to focus on positives and minimize the negatives? I’d say everyone one from major corporations to Ball Clubs to high school students try to shift focus away from the negatives. So, while the Francisco signing was too much $ for what he would bring back and was, like you said, an effort to diffuse the sting of Reyes, I think the Ramirez trade was a sound one. I liked the trade, like you did, as it helped to shore up a brutal BP. If Ramirez pitched anything like he did last year, that would be perfect for this team. Unfortunately he isn’t.
Where it does become about money is this. 2 slots on the roster were filled for the cost of one. The money that was sent along balanced out the contracts, I believe.
Madoff may have had an affect on how the Wilpons felt about spending but the truth is it had ZERO to do with the financial constraints!
The attnednace caused the lack of funds, if attendance was fine Sandy would not have cut as much as he did!
And the truth is if he had made moves that would increase attendance it would have had the same affect!
“They were intended to be a smokescreen and to try and minimize the PR hit they knew they would get after Reyes.”
Joe, I think this a case of too much time in the blogosphere, where every little story is a major event.
Do you really think that the majority of fans were talking about this deal over Reyes? Do you honestly think the casual guy who watches SNY and SportCenter and reads the Daily News had any idea who Ramirez, Rauch or Fransisco were prior to this season?
Even here, a fansite that follows all the Mets news and you have writers and posters that follow the game closely and either know the relevant info or can get it, what topic dominated conversation?
It was not Ramon bloody Ramirez.
Now, if you were to say that the Rauch and Fransisco deals were over reactions to the deals Bell and Papelbon signed and maybe Alderson misjudged the market for relievers, I’d agree with you.
But to say swapping and signing role players was somehow meant to over shadow the Reyes deal is really stretching reason.
‘Hindsight being what it is, we cannot forget the Madoff Mess that helped shape how this team is currently constructed’
This i agree with.. It was about the money and nothing but the money, Wilpons knowing they were facing that trial and could very well lose the team.
‘Had that not been a factor, Pagan may still have been a Met’
This I disagree with. They just didn’t like Pagan at all. Quotes indicated along with his miscues in the field, he was a type of ‘whiner’ who was in the manager’s office every day, needing to talk, needing reassurances, etc. Money aside, I think this was one of the few players they were looking to move the day the season was over.
Agree SRT. They just didn’t like Pagan. I am not sure what happen to him last year but he was a mess and just like Lou with the Cubs they got tired of him and decided they would rather have a “solid” reliever and a place holder that can play consistent defense.
I still think it’s way to early to judge the trade either way.
Have to credit Rubin for reporting this one. If he said it once, he said it a half dozen times ‘FO is not high on Pagen.’
Reading his chats weekly, he went further when asked about the FO’s opinion of Pagan, which is where I got most of my information on that opinion.
LOL I loove tyour duplicity dude….You seem to have different calendars and time frames for different players…
Too early to judge the trade but way past due to judge Ike and send him down….
SO please which is it? Too Early or Too Late?
Maybe it’s neither…Maybe it’s RIGHT ON TIME to do these things?
“You seem to have different calendars and time frames for different players…”
Yup, go figure how that works.
apparently 7 weeks or so is enough to lock in the season, so better sign Wright immediately since he is a .400+ hitter, etc.
Yep Stick I would extend Wright right now as well…even WITHOUT the .400+ Average!
All I care about is he keeps his average above .290 and drives in a lot of runs when the opportunity is there to do so and Wright has usually done that. I have never cared how many HRs he hits but was disappointed in his drop in BA and as a result his drop in RBI.
Oh I know full well how it works….
Anything that reflects on Sandy is too early…anything neutral or acquired by Omar is way past due!
Your not fooling anyone dude!
LOL
Metsie, I don’t play the Omar vs Sandy game. By now you should know that.
In fact on the Desert.com or Dessert.com pending Alex’s mood, I wrote an article at the beginning of the year championing Ike as the 2nd best 1B in the NL East and primed to take 1st. Yeah, me hate me some Omar. I also love Harvey, Murphy, Kirk and still have hopes for Duda. I also defended Thole. Notice a trend here? Me like the Mets. I know, I know. That’s a crime.
NO I won’t say you are involved in the Sandy vs Omar game…
But you are in the support Sandy game which is at the heart of the Sandy Vs Omar game…
No one mentioned or compared Omar to Sandy until Sandy’s moves were questioned and the response was well he is doing a better job than Omar did…
I don’t know maybe you weren’t around for those conversations but the defenders of Sandy were the ones who compared his moves to Omar’s not the guys who merely took Sandy to task for his moves.
It actually started when someone (I believe it was jessup) suggested Sandy started of with a worse team than Omar did and the maligning of all those Kids we supposedly didn’t have requiring us to sell off talent in hopes of restocking that poor MiLs and Our response being a Macro that lists about 6-7 players who are currently on the team (Ike being the only one not doing well at the mo) not to mention all the guys I did not have in the macro like Valdespin and Rotino…
I know you think the Anti Sandy crowd is what is pushing the comparisons but that is hardly the case!
And because they did we are reminding them of what they said then because it goes back to the REAL cause of all the arguments…
Some wanted us to play moneyball, be a cheap spending team because it’s a philosophy they like and assumed Sandy was going to give to them!
He hasn’t really he has not spent but he sure hasn’t made a move other than Wheeler that has anything to do with 3 or 4 years from now and if anything the idea that we needed to play for 3 or 4 years from now is showing that we may be wasting 3 or 4 years of what could have been pretty good and competitive baseball if we didn’t work on the assumption the sky was falling and we needed to wipe the slate clean!
You want to give Sandy a chance to prove himself thats not a crime!
You want to say we have a promising team thats not a crime because it is true!
What is a crime is to dismiss the mkoves that have done nothing to make it promising and in fact may have lost some promise that could have been made if we had not taken this defeatist approach and concerned ourselves with improving the team with the idea of doing it EVERY YEAR as opposed to some phantom 3 or 4 years from now!
The bottomline here is we need to stop cottling Sandy and making excuses for him!
And as long as people continue to make excuses as if he is not to blame for ANYTHING that happens the longer your going to wind up having the conversation you say you don’t want to have!
Because your prolonging it by the excuse making and differing standards based on how it affects sandy or not.
Is it too early? No it’s not…Is it too late? Certainly not!
I was the one who said 7.5 games out in July was not game over…
And if not for some of the moves Sandy made not working out we wouldn’t be close to game over as we are now in fact we might even be at the top of the NL EAST or only a game out!
“Sandy does no wrong of course. 2 years and not one bad move – anything wrong that has happened? Not Alderson’s doing it’s all other factors. Sandy doesn’t make bad moves, Sandy doesn’t deceive the fans, and everything he does has resulted in making the Mets batter since the day he’s got here.”
Just use that as your signature for the rest of your posts here.
LOL……
Bayonne, notice how the people defending alderson in this thread are the sabergooner and the desert guys who can’t run a blog the proper way, and even though they bash this site they’re here 24/7.. SMH
Where have I even defended Alderson in this post? Other than the fact that I liked the move for Ramirez but didn’t want Pagan to go?
Believe it or not I am not in this for pro or anti Alderson and I have said that from the start. What I have said is that I think it’s too early to judge what Sandy is doing here and after next year if things are still bleak as hell then I will jump on your bandwagon too and hold your pike.
Now as for my blog Alex, why do you keep bringing it up? Joe doesn’t have an issue with us being here and I am currently commenting on there right now. Also to be so sure of what goes on at my blog you must want everyone to know that you are a registered member of the site along with the 1300+ other subscribers who have posted 150,000+ comments in the last 3 years.
By the way it’s our 3rd year anniversary this week. Thanks for the press again.
No TRS your a bit smarter than the average Sandy apologist…
You don’t outright defend sandy you just blame the problems on other things and ignore Sandy’s contributions to that being the case! LOL
Like Torres needing to be pinch hit for last night and Santana having to pitch the 7th because no one has any confidence in the Bullpen he acquired over two years of focusing on it specifically!
Fair points on having to pinch hit for Torres and the shakiness of the pen at this point. I stand by the fact that Terry could have managed the situation better and Johan should be able to keep a 4 run lead vs the Pirates. The end.
Well the question is did Terry have the options to make better decisions or is the construct of the Roster so weak that he really had no choice but to go with the cards he had and hope it worked or go all in with his bench and risk having nothing later on in a tied game to go to when needed.
Part of the reason he held back PHing was due to the fact is he has no bullpen arm he can trust for more than an inning at best. Which means a lot of pinch hitting when their spot comes up and even then it may not be enough because of the dice roll on who will give up 2 runs in their inning!
The thing that cost us this game if you ask me?
It’s all about the Torres is our CF stance we took a few weeks ago!
Kirk was playing a fine CF, We moved him, Put him back and put another rookie next to him and between the two did not communicate and screwed the pooch!
You want to blame Sandy for playing them then suggest the alternative OF you would have fielded instead?
Why is our Roster so poor right now?
Well it’s two YOUNG KIDS who got hurt (Tejada and Thole) which flies in the face of Young stays healthy and plays more games…
One VET CF who can’t even hit a third of what Pagan does and a lack of BP arms that inspire enough confidence to lift Santana a better earlier because they are all showing they are not much better than a guy who has pitched 6+ innings and might be a bit tired!
Terry can only work with what he has been given!
And you can’t make steak with chopmeat!
This Omar lovin’ vs. Sandy licken’ argument just makes my head hurt.
“and even though they bash this site they’re here 24/7″
When the man’s got a point, the man’s got a point.
There is no they to that. I refuse to bash this site. I continually say it’s the best Mets site out there and a model for other Mets blogs. I only bash some of the frequent commenters on their rational abilities.
Srt you forget one thing…
It did not matter what the team spent in the offseason they were losing the team if they lost the madoff case regardless!
Because the team wasn’t the solution to thier problems it was just another problem that had to be fixed!
A team losing money is no solution to the Madoff crisis unless sold!
So going cheap on the players didn’t make the madoff situation any better and in fact it can be said it only made the team situation worse!
They could have just as easily signed a big name long term and if they lose the madoff case it would be someone else’s headache not theirs after they sold the team to pay Picard!
So Madoff didn’t affect how the team was run as it did not hurt the teams finances at all, And NOTHING the team did spending wise would have helped them keep the team if they lost the Madoff suit!
Madoff is nothing more than a convenient excuse for not going after the best players or building your team from a baseball perspective!
I don’t think I forgot anything, Metsie. I just don’t agree with your opinion.
To me it was all about the money and nothing but the money. I’ve seen no argument – or facts, for that matter – that have yet to change my mind.
SRT thats fine your welcome to believe what you want…But tell me what is your current opinion about the “Saving Money” Approach now that you have seen what that does for you?
You see this is the key reason why I say the deal is bad on it’s own…
I dont’t care that it was used as a diversion from Reyes because even if the deal is made a week later or earlier the results is the same…
The team let a Reyes go because they deemed him NOT WORTH the money and what they deemed WAS worth the same money Reyes would have gotten has been far worse spent than it would have been on Reyes!
Sure he struggled a bit in Miami…But not more and a damn site better than the collective players we brought in instead of him!
True enough on Pagan. I’m sure when the inevitable base running blunder pops up, SF fans will know our pain.
Lets not forget that Torres was already picked of twice and that when he got caught in between third and second in Houston it was called a fielders choice but it was boneheaded nonetheless.
True indeed. The trade was about Ramirez, though. Unfortunately, we got Pagan-lite back with him.
I said it back in December this was a bad trade. Of course everyone loved it. I always liked Pagan. Good player to have on a team. He had an off year last year but I much rather have him than Ramirez and Torres. Just because Sandy got 2 players for Pagan’s salary doesn’t make this a good trade if both players aren’t performing. Just another example of this front office putting more importance in money than baseball.
I think the issue with Pagan, and those who know me know I defended him until the end, was the on again off again play. I just think it wore on the Mets the same way it wore on Lou P. I would have rather kept Pagan in CF but I still like the acquisition of Ramirez.
Ya, because when I think Angel Pagan, consistency is the first thing that comes to mind.
And who said Torres was a replacement for Reyes? I want to see that quote.
I can’t backup that comment either. Joe does a great job here but I can’t see how any of these moves had anything to do with the Reyes loss. I can’t get in to conspiracy theories.
The Mets never saw Torres as a long term replacement for Reyes. They just saw him as someone who could bat leadoff until someone else could.
I disagree in part. Joe is a great guy and runs a quality blog. He certainly puts up with a lot to make sure all voices are heard. However, I don’t buy this conspiracy mess at all.
Like Sandy would call up FF’s agent and say, “You know Reyes is going to sign next Tuesday so lets go ahead and agree to a deal, whatever he wants so I can cover up losing a homegrown star with a mediocre closer… keep this on the down low”.
Hello, Mr. Agent of Jon Rauch, I have a recording that I just played for FF, click.
Hello, Mr. Giants GM, I would like to make a trade, listen to the following announcement.
“Now the key here is that we must wait until the day after Reyes signs to make the announcement. That way Jessup can say we had a good day. Then no one will notice Reyes leaving”
All points – well said.
Maybe we can go on a nice 10 game winning streak so we really have something we can call a distraction.
Pagan and money…wow. That is news. Perhaps we could move Toress or Bay to Boston. Keep promoting the prospects.
*looks at title and shakes head*
This is ridiculous! When you want Angel Pagan back, your OF situation must be shitty. The guy who’s either injury prone or has apathy of the brain you want back? I said it weeks ago: Torres will come back down to earth, and when he does, put Nieuwenhuis back as your starting CF (even though he’s running cold now unfortunately) and have Torres simply as a role player off the bench, whether it be a defensive OF or pinch runner.
Solid post.
I’m shocked at how many are still saying Torres is an upgrade over Pagan. Totally shocked. I think the Mets fan base suffers from multiple personality disorder. Two years ago they wanted Pagan to run Beltran out of town, now they they hold Torres in high esteem over Pagan.
“I’m shocked at how many are still saying Torres is an upgrade over Pagan.”
Who? Who is saying that Torres is an upgrade over Pagan?
“Two years ago they wanted Pagan to run Beltran out of town”
Correction: Greg Pomes wanted Pagan to run Beltran out of town because he hated Beltran no matter what he did. Nobody here wanted Beltran run out more than him. Like TRS asked, who have you seen mention Torres as an upgrade over Pagan?
Didn’t almost every logical person agree that Torres was just a place holder for a kid like Kirk? So why is Torres stinking a big deal or unexpected? Now if the Mets stick with him in CF over Kirk when Bay is back then we have some issues. For now, I expect Baxter and Kirk to get a lot of starts.
If true then why is Torres the starting CF and not Kirk?
I said since the time the trade was made that torres was never intended to be the starting CF. he was a stop gap in case Kirk was not ready to break camp with the Mets, with the vision being torres could be a 4th OF/defensive replacement type.
well, it turns out that Kirk was not quite ready, so Torres got to fill time. Of course things did not play out as expected (and Bay going down was a big part of that).
still entirely possible that when Bay comes back, torres becomes the 4th OF he was supposed to be.
and this deal really was about getting Ramirez, who had been one of the better set up men for the last few years, with Torres being a way to balance the money, and to give some depth back just in case.
That, and the team really did not seem to like pagan anymore. Wonderful for him he is having a career start to the year, but it is still May.
I never thought anyone could be worse than Angel Pagan, I was wrong,. Andres Torres is brutal and he had killed this team since he became the leadoff hitter. Absolutely terrible trade that has pain no dividends for us at all, none!
Looks like Kingman got the boot, LOL. He deserved it.
However, I just wonder why some others are allowed to personally insult others to the effect of saying they ride David Wright while holding a Sandy blow up doll yet they still remain?
I had to delete Kingman’s comments.
I dont know him and he dont know me. I worked too hard to have him come here and insult me, my family, my devotion to the Mets, and my my labor of love which is this site.
I’ve never uttered a bad word to this person to have him insult me and trash me the way that he has.
Disagreeing with me is fine, but to be ridiculed while I sit in pain at the VA Hospital and watch him hurl insults after insults to me because I did not like the Pagan trade is beyond reproach.
The thing that bothers me most is that I don’t even know this person. I believe in three things in life and that is to defend my God, my country and my honor. I don’t need to have those things I cherish shitted on by someone who don’t even know me.
Thank you for ruining what started out as a nice day.
Joe, as I said I completely agree with your decision and he stepped over the line. It is your right to run your blog as you please. Kingman and I have had historic battles as well and rarely agree.
My comment however was concerning how others seem to get by with much worse. That being said they are not insulting the owner so I see that point as well. If someone had done the same thing on my blog I would have acted accordingly.
Sorry that occurred.
JoeD, don’t let anyone affect your day, i am glad you deleted his comment , him and his buddies from the desert come here and insult this site, calling the shoutbox the fuming pile, among other things, yet they come here ALL THE TIME… Don’t let them or anyone bother you, this is the best site there is for mets fans, keep up the good work and always remeber the CORE is with MMO!
“JoeD, don’t let anyone affect your day, i am glad you deleted his comment”
Alex I agreed until here. Kingman should have had his comments deleted. They were inappropriate. When is the last time you said that about one of your “buddies”?
” , him and his buddies from the desert come here and insult this site, calling the shoutbox the fuming pile, among other things, yet they come here ALL THE TIME”
Alex, do you think that every commenter and author here represent the site “well” in your eyes?. What Kingman said was inappropriate but doesn’t represent the feelings of TRDM anymore than you represent MMO or Jessup for that matter. Also, lets make this clear for the final time. The “Chat Box” itself is a great idea, we have one as well. What you guys turn it into when you need to run and insult someone and break the terms of posting (just as Kingman did) that is when it becomes the Fuming Pile. I have said over and over that this is the best Mets blog there is Alex. What more do I need to say?
… Don’t let them or anyone bother you, this is the best site there is for mets fans, keep up the good work and always remeber the CORE is with MMO!”
I have said over and over that this is the best Mets blog there is Alex. What more do I need to say? Also, I have yet to see one single person admit to being in the “CORE” other than you. So not only may the CORE be with you but the CORE is YOU. LOL.
Now lets get back to talking baseball.
Joe, please dont take these comments to heart. You have been a very passionate fan and there are many of us who love you and your site. Dont let one bad comment bring you down. Please get better and focus on getting back home. God bless.
Joe, don’t let an insect ruin your day – you did the right thing and swiped it away. We all know you’re starting to feel better and some of us are trying to change so you don’t have to deal with our crap. You did the right thing. See what happens when you contradict anything Alderson does? You are met with the most vitriolic hatred you’ll ever experience if you criticize the Almighty Alderson.
Oh and did you notice that that the other blog has copied this site’s format for it’s home page? LOL
Not sure why I would respond to your idiocy but I will try to be civil.
What Kingman did was inappropriate but he has also been one of the most critical of the current roster construction and front office. In fact, go figure we have had our own disagreements many times.
Now back to your need to bring up TRDM, considering that you run an illegal bootlegging site I find it strange you would call out someone for “copying another site”. That being said, our site is slightly similar to MMO as is Metsblog in the fact that they are Mets blog. LOL. We have a 3 column theme with all original artwork done by none other than NJ himself. NJ worked very hard on our site redesign so you can take up those issues with him. That is once you get done burning your Pantera CD.
The bottom line is that all scouting reports would have told you Torres and Pagan are 4th OFers n any team other than maybe a KC or SD–and temporarily in such places as well.
Pagan is the superior athlete, for sure. Also, the “superior” choice to be DL’ed early and often.
Torres has a defensive edge. Pagan hits better.
Mets saw the Torres 2010 stats and gambled he could regain if fully healthy after 2011. AIn’t happening. We got a reliever with some cred. Definitely not a boon since they joined the Mets, but please stop pretending you knew it wouldn’t work out. In the history of Mets trades, good and bad, this one won’t amount to much.
We need a start CF’er, and we don’t have one. Neuwy maybe in time.
While I think the idea that the bullpen signings and trade were 100% reactionary and simply done to cover up the Reyes signing (how cynical!)…I can buy into the idea that the Reyes signing put significant pressure on Sandy and the Mets to do SOMETHING. ANYTHING. And that may have led to some rushed moves.
I’m not too certain why people are surprised about Torres. I think everybody here knows or thinks that the future CF is probably going to be Kirk. I think the Pagan deal was made mostly to get him out of town and to get a reliever.
There’s no way we can ever really know if Pagan was good for the Mets clubhouse. To me he always seemed lazy and never seemed to have a positive attitude. We know Torres is a good clubhouse guy because the Giants players recognized him for it.
I think Torres has been disappointing defensively, but I’m not gonna sit here and say I wish the Mets had Pagan back. I wish the Mets didn’t have 4-5 OF that all need playing time.
I think when Bay returns you’re going to see Kirk start to take over the CF spot and Torres will become a 4th OF which is probably where he fits best.
NEWSFLASH: Kirk is here now? Why is his placeholder still playing CF and not LF?
Oh on a side note We still tied with the Marlins?
NEWSFLASH: The Mets starting LF is on the DL. Torres is not a LF, and is a veteran player. Moving Torres to LF and Kirk in CF right now doesn’t matter.
Oh on a side note why are you throwing Miami’s record in my face on a Mets site? Are you happy they are better than the Mets?
Ah so it is better to have the FUTURE PROSPECT playing out of position than the Bandaid Throw in who won’t be here for the forseeable future!
Thats your idea of FUTURE PLANNING and PLAYING FOR THE LONG TERM is it?
So tell me something, When Bay gets back is Torres sitting on the bench and Kirk back in CF?
Carefull I plan on bookmarking this for future reference!
And we can all rest assured that you will misrepresent it even when you do link it.
Hey, who writes the line up cards? Alderson or someone else?
Fair question that I can’t answer because I wanted Kirk to play CF. I am curious what will happen when Bay returns.
I just don’t get why we are not playing the VET out of position instead of the future CF…
Stinks of Matsui at SS and Reyes at 2B if you ask me!
If we are playing for the future development of this team then we had better start developing those players who are part of FOR THAT FUTURE and let the bandaids fill in where the bleeding is, Not stunt Kirk’s CF growth merely because some bandaid is more experienced at his position.
If Kirk was in the Minors learning how to play CF better it would be one thing…But he’s not he is here and should be playing and getting experience at the position he is supposed to be filling for the long term!
I’m not Terry Collins so I can’t tell you for sure the reason. If I had to guess it’s because TC feels Torres is a veteran OF and thinks his bat can get going, and feels the 2012 team is better with him in CF and Kirk in LF than vice versa.
When Jason Bay comes back, all bets are off. Bay, Tejada returning will probably send Ike down and possibly have to make a tough decision with some playing time in the OF.
Forget it, Joe. Pagan is not a good baseball player, and never has been. He had a solid 2010 and the first mistake Sandy made was not trading him when his value was at its highest. That said, Torres is a better baseball player than Pagan and always was. Pagan’s a better hitter, but that’s not saying much despite this little hot streak he’s on (which happens to coincide with a terrible nine or ten game stretch for Torres). Torres is a better defensive player, and just a better professional.
Torres was brought here to be the starting CF until Kirk was ready, then Bay went down and Torres has to start, but there was never any doubt he was just holding CF down till Kirk was ready. Hopefully, when Bay comes back, he and Torres will platoon, but the messages I’m getting from Terry is that Bay will play every day. Granted, he also said Kirk would go back to Buffalo when Torres got back and that never happened, so hopefully Bay playing every day will go that same route.
Point is, let’s not get crazy wishing we still had Pagan. His defense in SF is still atrocious, and all kinds of Giants blogs and sites have been killing him for it. Call his offensive outburst what you will, but the fact remained that going into this season, Bay, Kirk and Duda were going to be playing the majority of the outfield, so whether it was Pagan or Torres, we’re looking at a fourth outfielder. Give me the professional defender at a premium defensive position any day.
And you base this on what? Sabemtetrics?
OBP?
BA?
SLG?
WAR?
Pray tell what are you basing this on?
Basing what on?
Nice to see that Bay and Alex are continuing the tradition of running to the Chat Box and pressing the Fuming Pile button so they can get back to needlessly insulting others. Run Bay run back to the lair.
“Well maybe if the “Great Omar” who all of a sudden is giving a few people on this site a hard on, didn’t ink Jason Bay to that idiotic deal, maybe just maybe Beltran would still be a Met.”
Fonzie,
Not with Sandy Alderson, the last of the big time spenders
Why not Joey? Oh right he cut payroll in 1995 when his owner told him. Right I forgot. Having a top 5 payroll the other 13 years should not be realized. Got i, understood. I forgot Fred Wilpon said to spend like a drunken sailor and Sandy told Fred to go F himself he’s not spending because it might make the team better and we all know Sandy wants to lose. Isn’t it obvious he’s trying to set the record for the worst team in MLB history.
Was only making a joke about Sandy being the last of the big time spender, Fonz. He has had nothing to spend with.
I know Joey but there are some who think he doesn’t want to win and I think that is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. Why would someone who has a winning reputaton leave a cozy job in MLB and take on a mess of a situation if he didn’t want to win. I know if I was a GM I would want no part of the mess that was left knowing you would not be allowed to spend money for a few years. I would stay with MLB and earn my 7 figure salary without the stress of working for a team that takes a back seat to the team across town but is held to the same standards as the Yankee GM. Steve Phillips said the Met GM job is the toughest GM job in all of sports because of that very reason.
Hi Fonzie,
Oh, I agree that anyone who thinks Sandy doesn’t want to win is talking nonsense. Omar wanted to win just as badly. So does Billy Beane in Oakland.
But I also think Sandy’s main priority is getting the Wilpon’s financial house in order and that has to take precedent over all other matters. Perhaps that is what some meant by inferring Sandy doesn’t want to win and they are communicating it wrong. I believe he was brought in specifically because of his business, financial and legal background and the emphasis on “rebuilding” was formulated not from a baseball perspective as it was the urgency of the situation financially causing one to have no other choice.
I hope this is the case for if he was not so financially handcuffed, then his baseball decisions with the Mets (or those he was recommended to do by Paul DePodesta and his staff) do not speak well for a general manager. Other than Byrdak and Hairston, where are all the other players he signed during the winter of 2010? And no doubt the team would have been much better off by simply having retained KRod, offered the two year deal Takahashi sought and did not release Isringhausen, thus having these three still in the bullpen to go along with Parnell, Byrdak, Rauch and Francisco. That would be a formidable bullpen. Same with Pagan still in center instead of Torres, despite Angel’s limitations with concentration. Retaining these players would not have interfered with any rebuilding program, either.
Fonzi,
Forgot to add to my assessment that we could have still traded Pagan for Torres and Ramirez, but decided to give Kirk a shot at winning the center field position. That way we would have had an additional pitcher in the pen plus more bench strength with Torres. The front office felt that Tejada could replace Reyes at short so why not Kirk if he seemed ready for the call up?
Let’s just say we all new that Torres was coming off a bad year preceded by a career year for a 30 yr old and I was not happy about his annointment as Jose’s replacement.
Glad that finally the true Torres is showing up, let’s just let Cap. Kirk bat leadoff despite his strikeout’s I like his energy and if he is the future I would rather struggle with him than a “throw in” in the Ramirez trade, yeah right!