I think the two points we each raised are the ones to be addressed:

1) Are the kids we have now and down on the farm really not so good so we do need to have gotten a Wheeler or are they? If they are, there was no reason to sacrifice 2011. If they aren’t, then last year was not going to last and this season they will come down to earth and finish below .500 once again. If it’s the middle of the two, then at least admitting validity of our position, while disagreeing with it, would have stopped the argument long before this. So it has to be one or the other.

2) You brought out another good point about Beltran, KRod and other moves. “ALONE those moves can be justified! As a group and coupled with the moves of what has come IN weighted against what has gone OUT is the scale”. Considering the talent we have on hand already, plus those down on the farm, the moves don’t make sense. Again, for those who think the talent we have now and down on the farm is quite limited, trading Beltran and KRod and filling roster spots inexpensively on veterans that won’t cause us to be committed to them when the talent is ready does makes sense.

This is a general manager who doesn’t believe this team has the talent now and with just a little more help can really do things in 2012 (as we both believed in 2011). He gave the team a two week ultimatium to convince him not to trade Beltran (after already unloading KRod)? Two weeks – not what they were doing since that 4-13 start? Not taking into account that even the best teams always have a bad stretch over a two week span? Was that the cut and dry decision based upon computer projections? Whatever the methodology, to me that is not the thinking of a baseball man. It is that of a business man looking at the ledger book from all the angles.

Metsi, I can’t agree with you that more fans showning up for a wildcard race would offset the savings of those contracts because the Wilpons projected they would need an average attendance of 39,000 to break even financially and that was with the payroll they had back in 2009 and with 2009 ticket prices. The ticket prices themselves being cut back in 2011 could have meant even the increased attendance would not have caused revenue to exceed expenses.

And that, is where I think, Sandy and money ball comes into play. The Wilpons will never be able to generate the revenue they counted on with the ticket prices reduced the way they are with a ballpark seating just 42,000 fans. Hence, for the time being, expenses have to be cut, which means the roster as well. That’s, of course, if we believe the losses as stated by the organization – and not include television rights and revenue generated by being the majority owners of SNY. And if that is not the case, then the Wilpons put themselves into a corner by building a smaller capacity ballpark and expecting fans to spend a small fortune in order to come.

Notice how many empty seats we’re seeing at Yankee Stadium? That means more fans are less willing to spend so much anymore…

Everyone was in full agreement that the best way to build a team is with a solid core of young kids with Veterans to lead and fill in the gaps the Kids and MiLs did not have time to develop a solution for either as a long term impact signing or a shorter term hold the line till some kid in the system WAS ready to take over!

Not a single poster here would argue with that philosophy as being sound and credible!

ALL the arguments, All the moves with Beltran, Reyes, K-Rod, All the philisophical differences revolve around the question:
DO we HAVE the Young Core needed to build around or do we have to have a sell off players to get it!

One side believed we had nothing to build with or could even Qualify as a CORE! These are the guys who puke on anything Omar did!

The other side (me included) pointed out how we had:
Davis
Duda
Tejada
Murphy
Niese
Kirk
With:
Harvey
Familia
Mejia
Valdespin
Flores
Havens

All within a year or two of being added to that core.

But the doubters didn’t believe in any of them!
So we must sell Beltran to get something
We must Sell K-Rod to get something
We MUST have payroll to spend because we had NO ONE to fill ALL the Holes they said we had!
We MUST let Reyes go so we can spend the money in a more WISE fashion and get 6+ blown saves in a month!

They Point to Wheeler as so desperatly needed. Maybe he is but we don’t know if he’s even needed at all at this point!
They point to Nimmo who is no better a prospect at this point than anyone drafted where he was and may still be a bust because he has yet to even enter the Minors on a team, still in instructional league unless something happened recently I missed!

As you correctly pointed out, Not having either Wheeler or Nimmo would not kill our chances for a playoff in the future and it sure doesn’t guarantee one if the doubter/sellers are right about the rest of the potential core we have!

SO even if thier initial assessmet regarding the kids we have is true we have not solved that even a milimeter with the acquisition of Wheeler and Nimmo, Not even if they are both HOFers will it change a thing!

Now the battle lines are drawn and people are stuck defending thier previous positions!

I feel quite vindicated about what I have said in the past about what we have!
I know the doubter/sellers are feeling the pinch right now because of how good this team that was “Not going to WIN anytime soon” is currently winning games this SOON!

Because of thier initial position they also went out on a limb for Sandy because they think he felt the way they did about our Minors. No proof that he did mind you but it doesn’t matter Sandy was doing what they wanted and that makes what he did a GOOD job!

He wasn’t going to waste money on big name performers he was going to spend it on low risk cheap signings.

Those signings who have blown most of the games we could have won but didn’t and would have put us on top in the NL East right now!
But Sandy had a good day the day he got them, Sandy was much smarter than Omar did sending All Stars away instead of bringing them in.

They even started to gloat about how well the team was doing as proof of Sandy’s effectiveness hoping we wouldn’t notice who was contributing to that great start!

All the guys they claimed we did not have and should not try to build around while all the folks Sandy brought in and they claimed was in the name of winning games THIS year have cost us more games than they had anything to do with helping win!

I don’t really care that they traded Beltran for Wheeler on it’s own.
I don’t really care they traded K-Rod for crap on it’s own.
And I don’t even care they let reyes go for two 2nd round picks on it’s own!

ALONE those moves can be justified!
As a group and coupled with the moves of what has come IN weighted against what has gone OUT is the scale that makes Sandy look like crap and what makes the moves IN GENERAL a monumental error in judgement!

Three All Stars gone, 1 frontline (MAYBE) pitcher in return plus the cash we needed to blow 6 saves from one signing and I can’t even remember how many others from the other guys we needed to purge Reyes in order to have money to sign!

You put the whole comprehensive package of outgoing and incomming on a good/bad scale since Sandy has been GM and the scales tip completely to the side of BAD!

He has run out of All Stars to get rid of, He only has two left unless you want to count Bay’s one All star appearance.

Wright and Santana are the only two he can get something for!
I wonder if the folks who were originally wrong about their CORE assesment still believe what they thought then and want to trade Wright and Santana for kids or will they man up and admit they were dead wrong about it all and say NO we NEED them soince the team is winning baseball games when One of Sandy’s acquisitions isn’t blowing them!

What we saw last year and again with this season is that many of the kids counted on for the future were already making their marks in the present. We know there is a camp on the opposite side of the fence which does not discount the achievements already made by Gee, Duda, Davis, Murphy and others but believes they were not as ready as we felt they were.

The problem with that argument, as we both believe, is that if a team is not going to make it all the way to the playoffs it doesn’t mean letting go of the veterans who are helping nurture that team along for prospects, no matter what the potential. What a modestly successful August and September could have done for this team in developing poise and maturity we might see missing later this season as, as pointed out by Bobby Ojeda, it has yet to have been really tested. Believing they were in the wild card race, even if nobody else did, would have given them the experience that Bobby says they have had yet to deal with. You, I and others believe the team as it is now and with what it has down on the farm, would not suffered a long-term setback had they stayed the course last season and did not have Wheeler.

And let us imagine, for a second, that we didn’t have Wheeler in our organization. Would we see this organization in a different light as we do now – player wise? Would we suddenly believe our future more dim? Would we feel we need a savior? I doubt it. Yet, if we had momentum built up from last year, the kids who MIGHT find themselves in a hunt for the wild card late this season might not have been so green behind the ears.

The entire debate might, as I suspect, go beyond the question of Beltran and KRod for essentially was a Zach Wheeler but the bigger divide over that of Sandy Alderson’s philosophy – perhaps supported by some on its own merits or partially out of frustration of Omar going for the quick fix each season (but don’t forget, I pointed out how Omar was doing both, building a club to win now (which others with his open check book could very well have done a better job than him) and one for five or six years later after all those veterans were long retired.

In reading so many interviews with Sandy, he comes across having a tremendous analytical mind and very astute in terms of looking ahead for the long term implications. But in all those interviews he talks more in terms of business and money wasted on players then what it takes seeing in players what it takes to put together a team. Again, my respect to all those who feel Sandy has developed the professional skills to become the one who can call the shots and recognize player potential and how a team can mesh together as a unit, but for myself, beyond the type of generalities that we all have exchanged with each other here on MMO, there has been little in his interviews to show that his deep thinking analytical mind applies to complex understanding of player personnel. With personnel moves, I think he heavily leaves that up to the people under him and agree with his outlook of spending and computer analysis that he professes taught him about professional baseball (as per his quotes that I posted).

Again, won’t go into the issue of computer analysis or money ball but the issue again is that no other front office with it’s young team coming on strongly ever broke it up. If the Mets were starting to fade after a quick start – instead of coming on after a horrendous start – it would be a different story.

If what Sandy did last season was done by others – under the circumstances we have both outlined, I would ask for a link to see for I still profess no front office ever sent it’s top two players off in such a situation unless it was desperate for money – which, as I pointed out – was twice the case with Hall of Fame manager and owner Connie Mack and something Charlie Finley tried to do with selling his players for cash, being aware they were going to jump ship as soon as free agency began. That has also been the case for more than a half decade with Billy Beane once his good young talent approached arbitration.

Tim McCarver just said the team will not re-sign David Wright if the financial situation continues, just like they didn’t Reyes. Is that what we have to look forward to? And then, what about Davis, Murphy and others who will be eligible for arbitration and/or free agency in a handful of years?

That’s why I contend the moves last season had more to do with business and little to do with re-building. We just don’t know what Sandy might have allowed the organization to do had the money been there. Most likely, the Wilpons might have told him to see if he get additional help as long as the asking price wasn’t ridiculous.

Sure a playoff is nice but to say they didn’t make the playoffs they are worthless is unfair. I only ask for improvement and not just from the players but from the GM that acquires them!

Last year if we had gone out and got a real deal starter Ace to #2 type, Last year is a very different history. Not only does it improve the team record last year and probably wins more than the 7 games we dropped from the previous year, but a guy like that would be signed and help this year and next as well!
We wouldn’t have an issue with Pelfrey being down right now. We wouldn’t have lost as many games as we did with Pelfrey as our only ACE last year and may not have missed Sanatana as much as we did!

All I ask of the team is to win more games than they did the year previous!

It takes a long time to get the right combination of talent to get to and win a playoff!
No one says otherwise!You can’t do it just with kids and you have a hard time doing it with just vets as well!

But a combination of both is the key!
We had the kids despite many claiming we didn’t (despite their attempts at running away from their previous statements they are all posted here for posterity)
So what we lacked was the Veteran Leadership most notably in the starting rotation last year and solving that last year changes the record significantly and helps us this year as well!

But the people who have claimed thier plan is the LONG TERM plan have done nothing but make short term fixes in the name frugality!
We have signed 55 Players since Sandy got here and 29 of them are no longer here!

And the truth is that money and roster spot is just as much wasted as losing a year to Santana or Beltran because they got hurt but played All Star baseball when they were on the field!

People seem overly worried about how much Money Wilpon spends!
When they should worry more about what we DO spend being wasted, useless and cut fodder because it is not helping this team get better!

Sorry I only got around to reading your fan shot from last season this morning.

To say last year’s team might have been better, baring the injuries and the trades of KRod and Beltran, than the 07 and 08 Mets is something I hadn’t thought of, though if I was professing it had already proved itself over that stretch of 88 games that 2011 could have been a real success had the front office not been concerned in salary dumping or, as many have suggested, building for the future instead.

Teams not going anywhere should indeed rid itself of veterans when they can get some one of value in return. But that was not the case of us until the trades and injuries did us in. These kids were going somewhere last year and I think will again this year. Playoff? Really doesn’t matter as long as the rebuilding curve continues upward but I don’t believe our future rested on sacrificing 2011 and all the good it was producing for one prospect, even with the potential of Zach Wheeler. We would not have been able to keep even with the Braves, Cardinals, Giants as we did for more than half the season if our blend of young kids and veterans weren’t showing they were already capable of doing something special.

For 2012, Beltran would have left the club anyway but his bat would have been replaced by that of the disabled Ike Davis.

Our acheilles heel is still not having anyone close to replacing KRod. Rodriguez gave us kiniptions whenever on the mound but he usually got the job done and is still way better than any of the replacements we got. For those who cite his high ERA with the Brewers this year, let’s look a bit deeper into it. This year he gave up eight runs in a total 3-1/3 innings (four performances). That means in the other 12.1 innings pitched he has given up a total of one (in 11 performances). Eight of his 14 hits allowed also came in those four bad performances, which means, in eleven other games, he gave up six hits in 12.1 innings. He’s only had one bad performance in his last eight outings and in the last four outings has lowered his ERA by 1.3 runs. He’s only had one or two appearances in which he came in with inherited runners and got them out.

With those new acquisitions leading up to Krod, the moves made this winter would look better – it’s just that none of the trio qualifies as a closer. Unfortunately, the financial situation was so bad that the uniqueness of that $17 million bonus that Omar should never had agreed to was too much for the Mets to handle. If we find out reports of the financial problems of the Wilpons were greatly exaggerated, then one has to indeed question the wisdom of sending a closer who is only turning 30.

Good read, Metsi (or do you like being called Mike?).

Your the buttwipe that brought them into the equation!

Cause you couldn’t fight the metric anyother way and thought I DID include Errors that I dit not!

They tripped YOU up not ME!

I also include HBP…Does WHIP? NO!
SO MY metric is not the same as Whip it’s BETTER!
Cause it tells me how many batters above minimum he will face be it 1 Out, Two Outs Three Outs or 6!
Whip only tells you what he will average if he pitches a whole inning!

And doesn’t account for Errors OR HBP!

NOT the same Metric!

Yes Jessup there are unfortunatly for you, you ain’t one of them!

“When I got involved in baseball, back in 1981, as I said earlier, I didn’t really have any experience. Two years after I joined the Oakland A’s, I became the general manager. I was looking around for a way to make personnel decisions, I wasn’t a scout, hadn’t been a scout, had not been in baseball very long, didn’t have that kind of experience.”

It was in 1983 that he came across statistical analysis and began his learning process.

“But at about that time, there were several people including a guy named Bill James, another named Eric Walker, who were writing about baseball and writing about a new statistical approach to player evaluation. which really emphasized things like on-base percentage more than batting average or other things and related that individual performance to team success.

“It struck me as sort of sound theory, so we began to use it to some extent as early as 1983-84. We used it in a variety of ways in looking at players we acquired. We kept it quite for a long time, in part because it was new and because I was so new, people would look at me and say who is this kid and how could this possibly work, so we didn’t want to get into that type of public discussion.”

I’m making no comment regarding who did what, who was right, who was wrong, etc. Only that Sandy’s learning about player personnel decisions began in 1983 and not before and that this admittedly was , in essence, on the job training.

Not what I said, Mister 303 IQ. They way you first presented your metric, you did not account for errors. You only said it was Batters Faced over Minimum Batters. No mention of excluding errors.

Then, you changed to be WHIP/3.

“so we can all get inside the thinking proccess of an idiot!”

You posting your diary?

Are you familiar with the type of program that ESPN has been rolling out? Why Skip Bayliss is all over the place?

All it would do is give the loud screamers who have no facts a huge advantage by letting them just shout down the other people.

Real time live debates will settle in 5 minutes what takes 200 comments here because all the word play, double meanings, etc – all of that garbage that wastes everybody’s time won’t fly in real life

Yeah unfortunatly your clock has never been right even once!
If we miss the nplayoffs by one game will you also suggest again that we blow the team up like you wanted to do in 2008?

Was that you trying to take a swipe at my former career running a ticket department for a pro team? Simply because I know the practices of pro teams with regards to gate openings? And

Also I know somebody who has worked closely with Boras and with Moorad on creating those documents I speak of. You have proven to never open up and understand you don’t know everything there is to know about baseball.

There are people out there that know more than you, deal with it.

As for tripping me up because I didn’t count errors well why don’t you tell everyone whjy I SHOULD have counted them so we can all get inside the thinking proccess of an idiot!

SO tell me why did my exclusion of errors make my Metric no good?

Don’t answer and it will accdepatance of yet another case Where Donal can talk but never back up a thing he says!

Seriously, at best, it is a needlessly complicated version of WHIP. And that was only after I pointed out how you didn’t account for errors (don’t act like you didn’t get tripped up there).