10
2012
MMO Mets Quotables: Phlying High Edition
An article by 72MetsFan
I feel sorry for all those saps who claimed they wouldn’t go see or in some cases watch this team because of some stupid protest against the Mets owners. What about all the princes and paupers who predicted doom and gloom and falling attendance, and the seers and prophets who refused to give this Mets team a chance? What a bunch of whiny, uninformed, poor excuse for Met fans they turned out to be. Proud to be connected to a site that published no doomsday articles and in fact quite the opposite this offseason. Now as for all you real Met fans, specifically the MMO Faithful, here’s this week’s edition of Mets Quotables.
“We came in and got them at the right time and took advantage of playing hard. If something happened, there was a mistake, we capitalized on it. It was a great trip for us. We’ll enjoy it for a while and get ready for this weekend.” ~ Terry Collins
“I feel like the last four or five games I’ve hit the ball solid. I haven’t gotten a lot of hits, but I feel there is a change happening that is for the good.” ~ Ike Davis
“I wanted to come back and contribute to this team anyway I could. The lighter bat feels better and gives me a tighter swing. It’s all part of the new approach, and I really like the whole thing.” ~ Andres Torres
“He’s a tremendous ballplayer. You can’t take from anybody, what they can do on the field. He’s played good defense, he’s hit, he’s been clutch.” ~ Andres Torres on Kirk Nieuwenhuis
“Coming in here to do that is very, very difficult. Especially with that team and to come in here and win three the way we did, it’s something to be proud of. I don’t want to get caught up in the attitude being, let’s wait until the sixth, seventh, eighth innings to go. But it’s nice to come from behind and steal a few. Or in this case, steal three of them.” ~ David Wright
“So what if we fall behind early. Who cares? We got nine innings.” ~ Justin Turner
See you after the Miami Marlins series. Lets Go Mets!
About the Author: Drew Staley
On June 1, 2012 Johan Santana officially became my favorite current Met! I'm a Queens native who grew up in the shadows of Big Shea. I was a huge Ron Darling, Dave Magadan and John Olerud fan. Honored to be a part of such a great site for Mets fans. Ya Gotta Believe!
224 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 30 | .583 | - |
| Phillies | 35 | 37 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Nationals | 34 | 36 | .486 | 7.0 |
| Mets | 27 | 40 | .403 | 12.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 48 | .314 | 19.0 |
Last updated: 06/19/2013
Recent Comments
- El Sid: on Matt Harvey: The Mets’ Number One Badass: So standing up to a okay middle...
- peter: on Mets Acquire Eric Young Jr. For Collin McHugh, DFA Cowgill and Promote Brown: Dam some of you are really funny,...
- Donal: on Matt Harvey: The Mets’ Number One Badass: *Ahem* Leviathan is a sea monster. Behemoth...
- Sloatsburg Mets Fan: on A Deeper Look At Zack Wheeler’s Debut: Alex68, You're dead on! I chalked the...
- Hodges14: on Matt Harvey: The Mets’ Number One Badass: Agreed, and that's why I said that...
Latest From Mets Minors
Check Out These Great MLB Links!
Photographs From Gordon Donovan
Fans Follow Us On Twitter!
1333 Fans Like Us On Facebook!
2341 Fans Read Our Feed!
1702 Fans Subscribe via Daily Email!
72 comes out guns blazing!
I never, ever, ever, agreed with the silly protest of Citi Field. I think it was and still is the dumbest thing ever.
I think its going to start being clear that if fans do not go to Citi Field, its their own fault for any future $ problems this team may have.
Just as you ask the Wilpon’s to invest, you to must invest.
The thing I love the most about this team right now is:
- They have lost Thole, Tejada, Bay, Pelfrey and haven’t made a single excuse. They haven’t used any “feel sorry for us” type attitude.
- They play to the final out
- They win games that the Mets of the last 5 years would have lost. Also, whenever their team has seemed to be on the brink of a tailspin, they’ve come out and won games they needed to win
no they are not winning games the Mets of the last 5 years would’ve lost. That’s just a shot at Omar by you.
They are not winning games the 2007 & 2008 Mets would’ve lost. In fact, don’t compare them to 2007 & 2008 that’s just silly and a fantasy. There were no 2009 Mets because they were all injured almost all year. Maybe you can say they won games the 2010 & 2011 Mets would’ve lost so far but it’s still early even to compare those teams
ha, you know when I said that I didn’t even think about Omar Minaya. You know because I said over the last 5 years, I am pretty sure that included last year.
Last time I checked, Omar Minaya doesn’t wear a uniform. Therefore, it wasn’t a shot at him…you just made it one.
If I wanted to take a shot at Omar, I wouldn’t be subtle about it.
Actually the 2008 team was at times just plain awful and we all debated the impact of the collapse often. If they were playing so great then Willie wouldn’t have been fired to start with. They were 34-35 when he was fired. Yet they did really turn it on in the 2nd half to give themselves a chance.
Take a look at the month by month break down
April 13-12
May 13-15
June 13-15
July 18-8
August 18-11
September 13-12
They were pretty dang mediocre except for those 55 summer games. They were also 16-19 in one run games that year.
You might be able to point to 2010 and 2009 but they won games like this all the time in 2011!
They started winning these games recently but these games were going for losses early in the season!
People are forgetting the fact that most of these come from behind wins and wins by one run are mostly the product of the bullpen giving up the lead we had in the first place!
Many of those 1 run wins were games where we had a 3 run lead only to see the BP allow them to tie the game or take the lead only to have the batter pull victory from the jaws of defeat!
Our relievers have 8 Victories already! and Three Losses! in 31 games! Thats more than a third of the games the bullpen got the decision and thats not a great thing to have! It sre isn’t because of the state our Starters have left them with, There were only about 4 games where the starter was truly horrible, lasted less than 4 innings and needed the pen to carry the main game load.
Most of those victories are de to a reliever blowing a save only to have the bats save him.
Glad the bats are alive even despite the strggles of Davis and Duda but if we are going to get giddy about come from behind wins it does make some sense to look at why we are behind in the first place!
The Bullpen seems to be getting it’s second wind (maybe we should call it thier first win considering how they started) and it’s good to see.
But this could get ugly if they don’t come up with a credible 5th starter to take pelfrey’s place to stop putting a drain on the bullpen every 5th day!
“You might be able to point to 2010 and 2009 but they won games like this all the time in 2011!”
Just remember Bayonne. Metsie said it not me.
Now please assume Metsie took a shot at Omar.
How is that a shot at Omar? It was the players you claimed he never got for s that did it!
Not anyone that Sandy brought it!
2009 and 2010 was de to the loss of Beltran and in 2009 of Reyes!
And 2010 wold have been a winning season for us if we had a 5th Starter who was worth a damn!
You can blame Omar for that if you want but before you do I suggest you name a pitcher he could have brought in other than Halladay to solve that problem!
Perez lost it and Maine got hurt. A healthy Beltran and a decent 15 game winner would have put us at roghly 9 wins and maybe only a game out of the Wildcard!
And who can say we woul;dn’t have won a few more from the Phillies and braves that year to actually get in!
What made 2010 what it was can be seen in a nutshell in our record against Braves and Marlins!
Braves we were 7-11
Marlins we were 6-12
.500 against both and we are in!
It was injuries that killed 2009 and 2010 and it was largely the SAME injuries at the heart of it.
All you can really say is Omar’s buying AND building fell short by a year because look at all the kiddies he has winning games for us now!
Hi Metsi,
Everyone here knows we share the same opinion about 2011 but I did find this interesting article at the time KRod was let go.
http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/6766943/despite-franciso-rodriguez-trade-new-york-mets-say-not-giving-2011
In it, Sandy says: “The Rodriguez trade should not signal anything to anyone about Beltran. … I think far more important in that situation will be realistically how we play in the next week, two weeks, three weeks.”
Now it is true the Mets then went just 8-6 before the Beltran trade and only closed the gap from 7.5 to 7.0 in the wild card hunt (and seven back in the loss column), so there was validity in Sandy’s decision based on the two to three weeks he gave them. It seems the players also understood they had to go better than 8-6 for Beltran to stay. From what Collins and R.A. Dickey said from the attached in the Times:
“Collins refused to comment on possible trades — speculation has focused on Carlos Beltran — but players acknowledged the talk and how important the next few weeks would be, starting with a three-game series against the Phillies this weekend.
“It’s the first kind of sample that we will be able to give Sandy as to what the next course of action will be for other guys in this clubhouse as far as being traded or not traded,” starter R. A. Dickey said, referring to General Manager Sandy Alderson. “It’s a small sample of that and it’s against a division opponent and it’s against the Phillies. Obviously, all of those things together collectively mean that there’s a decent amount of onus put on this series.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/15/sports/baseball/mets-face-crucial-stretch-at-start-of-second-half.html?_r=1
But was a stretch of 14 games too little a time to make a decision? What we and others profess that the decision should have been made based on the stretch of 88 games when they had played at a .568 clip and not those 14. Yet the same can be said by others that the Mets might have have already peaked and were starting to show signs of coming down to earth. As evidence, they had lost six out of eight to the defending world champions and perennial eastern division winner. They took two out of three from St. Louis but then lost two out of three to the Marlins. After that came a four game sweep at Cincinnati on the road to a team that was also playing around .500.
To his credit, R.A. saw the arguments from both sides of the fence – the one that you, myself and others believe in and the one of which the author of the following and many others in MMO agreed with, that the Mets should not have passed up getting Zach Wheeler with the goal of rebuilding.
“One of the things you can’t help but communicate to the team with a move like that,” says R.A. Dickey, speaking of the front office, “is, ‘You may do it, but we don’t believe this is our year. That’s what’s being communicated and you have to be honest about that. And that’s OK, that’s part of development, to be honest in your evaluation of your team.
“But at the same time, there are guys in this clubhouse who don’t share that same sentiment. This is our team and we all take ownership of it. As a professional you have to try and see the trade as a decision based on the long term as well as the short term. But it’s tough to swallow at the beginning.”
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-07-31/sports/29852500_1_mets-andy-martino-carlos-beltran-trade
The question that divides us all is this is about both, 2011 and our future. With so many of the young players last year and again now showing how well they can compete as a team, along with the prospects we already have in the minors, was sacrificing 2011 to get Zach Wheeler such a necessity to our future? If one believes that those of whom we have now and are countng on will not be enough and thus Zach could indeed be the make or break it player that keeps the Mets on top for many a year, the answer is an obvious yes, it was worth it. For those of us who think there is already enough talent to do so and that having a Wheeler would be of benefit but not critical to the team’s future success and that staying the course in 2011 would have been of tremendous benefit even if only wound up having a good winning record (86-76?), the answer is no.
Guys, please note this is an assessment of our strong disagreements looking at it from the perspective of the third person. It does not offer an opinion other thant stating their are two camps that do.
Well Joey it would appear that actions speak mch loder than words doesn’t it?
No 14 days is not enough time to go from maybe they can win to they can DEFINITLY be contenders!
Maybe if you hadn’t made the first move you win a few more games!
Once you start down the SELLER path at the deadline your pretty much committed to selling.
What was said then had more to do with getting better value for beltran than any hopes Sandy had of being a buyer if they did well!
Most teams don’t fold in late July and the Braves folded monumentally soon after!
People just wanted to see this team torn apart out of thier anger and the truth is they didn’t want to look at how good it was doing in Jne or Jly because doing so and admitting it wold be argment against taking a broom to the franchise!
Hi Metsi,
That’s why I tried to put both sides of the equation into that observation, to show that (at least for my part) that there were valid points to be raised by both camps.
Of course, I agree Sandy had his mind set from the beginning to be a seller because that was the edict handed him from the top. In fact, many of the media before spring training talked about the dilemma the Mets could face if they found themselves in the position of indeed playing well yet still having to dump salary.
Since we’re on the subject of quotes, attached is an interview Sandy conducted before the 2011 season which might shed some light on why you and I see things in a certain way.
http://www.nj.com/mets/index.ssf/2011/02/more_from_mets_general_manager.html
Sandy admits his earlier words might have been misunderstood in terms in conveying the message that the team had to dump player salaries but instead said the payroll as it was had restricted the team’s flexibility in making moves – which is basically the same idea just reworded to emphasize less about whether or not one should have a high or low a payroll but how one should utilize whatever perimeters one is handed.
He also repeated not believing the financial losses suffered at the hands of Madoff plus the pending civil suit had a major impact on the team’s financial footing. But this was also said before the $25 million loan to meet operating expenses became public and if he wasn’t aware of it while in the Commissioner’s office, as general manager Sandy certainly knew about it by the time the interview was conducted. He also had to be aware that the team had lost money the past two seasons.
While Sandy obviously could not be openly candid about the Mets financial situation, he knew the work cut out for him. Which means the question none of us will ever know is if money was not the issue, would the front office had sent both KRod and Beltran packing, stood pat or even would have been a buyer to make the club stronger down the stretch (as long as what we had to give up would not cost us in the future). Would Sandy had still given the players what was a two week stay of execution to further convince him they should indeed be taken seriously, even after making that task much more difficult by having (as you pointed out, already traded away our ace closer.
But we’re just repeating ourselves. The only way to ever know is to hope Fred Wilpon again gets tipsy enough during an interview to give an honest answer to the question if it should be raised.
Joey what I don’t get is why you can never see how Bertram had nothing to do with money. They paid most of his salary in order to get back the best prospect they could. One that GM around baseball said he couldn’t get. In fact if you follow Metsie theory after counting what they paid in the trade and revenue lost after the trade they would have even lost money trading him. rod was all about the money because of the stupid amount left with the option and Beltran was all about the return.
TRS can you name all the all stars in the last 10 years who were traded for a MiL kid straight up and nothing else?
How does that change the fact that it wasn’t a salary dump considering how much of his salary they paid. IF they had wanted a salary dump for Beltran they could have easily gotten one. Instead they went for one impact player that was said all along they had no shit of getting.
Lol shot … mobile phone.
Yo keep saying they had no shot at getting him but I asked you to show me any all stars in the last 10 years who got traded straight up for any kid!
Can you name one OTHER than Beltran?
No it wasn’t a Salary dump we got raked over the coals instead!
They should have gotten more or paid less of his salary!
Most All stars get two to three players back at the deadline!
Metsie
“We gave away two All Stars got maybe a total of 5 Mil savings on thier salary (K-Rod) and three kids in return, One pretty good one who is at least two years away, and two meat sacks one of which is currently injured.”
KRod would have made $17.5 million this year if they didn’t trade him. Would he not? If KRod stayed with the Mets, he was hitting that option.
Maybe Alderson’s rationale was more geared toward the fact that paying a closer more money than everybody except Johan Santana is just poor baseball management?
Do you realize that Mariano Rivera never made $17.5 million in 1 season? KRod isn’t even close to Mariano’s talent.
That was a terrible contract, and Alderson wanted to rid himself of dealing with a $17million closer who is good but not great. Sorry I don’t care what stats he likes, that was a good move.
And what was the rush we could have traded him in the offseason for better kids then?
Your theory only holds if we don’t trade him!
It’s not the when we traded him thats the problem it’s what we got in return!
A Big pile of nothing!
and a 5 Mil saved with 70 Mil worth of losses!
So we wold have lost 75 Mil instead!
Big deal!
So you honestly think that a team would have traded anything decent for a Krod owed 17.5M when he couldn’t even find a team that would pay him what he would make in arbitration to be a closer? So basically the Mets would have had to pay him the rest of 2011 and then pay most of his salary in 2012 to get back about what they got for him in the first place. Nice idea.
Yep!
You probably don’t realize but K-Rod was a type B free agent this year!
If he had stayed with us he most likely wold have been a type A due to all the saves he would have had as a closer!
Answer is at the bottom of the page.
Hi Tr,
Yes, the Mets had very little to lose financially just keeping Beltran but looking at it from a larger perspective, the little money they saved trading Beltran was not really deemed “small potatoes” in their eyes.
Consider the many other moves made within the organization – firing 15 low level employees whose salaries and benefits combined couldn’t make a dent in their operating deficit, folding up a rookie team plus hiring a financial consulting firm in order to streamline the organization financially. These moves, and others like them, makes it appear that the Mets were trying to save every nickel and dime they could. At least, that is how it comes across to me.
That’s my only hypothetical explanation.
Joey
wouldn’t you agree if they wanted someone would have been willing to pay for his contact?
Hi TR,
An excellent point about how another club might have taken over all of Beltran’s salary. Yes, a very good question indeed and one that needs to be addressed. My thought is that the organization saw this as the best of two worlds – saving SOME money and getting a top prospect at the same time.
But the question also must be asked – had the financial situation not been a factor, would the Mets have even been sending out feelers for both KRod and Beltran, considering the play of the Mets on field? Also, would the Wilpons have hired Sandy Alderson who, as anyone can see with that interview I just posted, is very astute in the world of finance – something we know, neither the Wilpons or Omar seemed to be.
Joey if you are saying that the Mets might have taken the Giants paying a little of the cash instead of getting some other C prospects to fill out the deal, as Metsie is saying we only got one prospect but most of those deals are for a top prospect and filler pieces, so maybe they chose to just not worry with the filler pieces. That being said, again if money was the ONLY consideration and Beltran were a salary dump then they wouldn’t have been so concerned with getting a top prospect and would have dumped him a long time before. In fact the reason they waited so long was they were hoping a team like the Giants would cave. I honestly think that Sandy was willing to keep Beltran if no one ponied up.
It wasn’t a money move TRS is was a Moneyball move! One of the few Moneyball conventions that seems to make sense due to the sitation of no ability to tender Beltran and get compensation.
The move by itself might not be an issue if not for the previous sale of K-Rod and the fact that the team was doing pretty well at the time and fighting for survival.
Other than their awful 5-13 start that team did everything it could to try and sway Sandy to not give up on it yet he did so anyway!
The financials are a convenient excuse used by fans to justify it but the truth of the matter is even if the finances were fine he would have made the same deals.
Sandy has said almost from the get go that he does not believe any MLB team can sustain more than two high priced FAs on a single roster. Has said this whenever the subject or keeping Reyes and Wright has been brought up.
What is significant and maybe being missed by some here is the parralells between last year and this year…
Last Year we had a pretty expensive piece in Beltran who most thoght his best days were behind him and that he would not be able to play everyday. Most went into the season thinking he would be traded at the deadline and they were right! We also had a Home Grown favorite who most thought wold be retained but it was said that he had to perform to EARN and show he deserved his big payday.
Beltran played a whole lot and hit a whole lot, Reyes had the best year of his career. Despite what beltran showed he was traded away, Despite what Reyes did he was allowed to walk away without even a single offer or attempt to keep him…
Turn to 2012 and what do we have?
A Player named Santana that most have said “If He Does Well” can be traded at the deadline for kids and Payroll flexibility, and another homegrown favorite named David Wright who might not be a FA at the end of the year but has also been suggested as having to do better to earn himself a big fat extention.
Considring the past History what would you say if we are a mere 7.5 games out in Jly and we trade Santana for some maybe straight up and Wright for two nobodies like we did with K-Rod?
All in the name of Payroll felxibility we still won’t have?
The Finances aren’t the issue attendance is, the most optimistic calclation has attendance so far up by 1 person!
What will that attendance be if Santana or Wright gets traded at the deadline?
We gave away two All Stars got maybe a total of 5 Mil savings on thier salary (K-Rod) and three kids in return, One pretty good one who is at least two years away, and two meat sacks one of which is currently injured.
The knock on Sandy is not merely a knock about spending. Thats the knock on those who make excuses for supporting what he has done.
The problem is the comparison of the outgoing to the incoming is not equal!
And the decision of who Sandy thinks is not worth having compared to who he has decided IS worth having!
The Pagan deal has been helped by the recent performance of Torres but we all know Ramirez was the key piece in that deal and Torres was just a throw in. How has ramirez done?
Francisco is the one player Sandy has decided was worth paying some money to and is he even 50/50 on any given day? Been better the last few games but for how long does that last? How many games do we lose because of him when the season is done?
Rauch could be called a decent signing for the price but he too has had his issues.
What you and others who fail to understand why we have these Omar vs sandy arguments is it’s not about What Omar did vs Sandy it’s about the moves Sandy made and where the success has come from. Not a single move Sandy has made on players he has brought in has led to the success this clb is seeing and the Sandy side is pouncing on to make Sandy look like he is doing well!
All these kids we have been winning with cold have been acqired by 5 different GMs but it would not change the converstaion one bit!
Sandy is not responsible for this current team’s success and the moves he has made (or not made) so far has held it back from being even MORE successful than it is!
But you have guys writing an article or two a week trying to priase the crrent team as a “SEE WHAT WE WERE SAYING” when the truth is a chimpanzee could have been named GM and the players who are winning games would still be here because they were ALREADY here when Sandy took over!
And most of the Sandy crowd arond here claimed they DiD NoT EXIST, Were not good enough, hell were not even MLB players just temps!
They were wrong then and are wrong now!
and the only thing that can screw it up now is Sandy continuing to pt Money and Future ahead of winning and current events!
I dread what might happen in July!
Cause I saw that movie already and it wasn’t pretty!
entirely different situation this year vs. last year, so IMO what happened last July is irrelevant to what might happen this year (other than the record/standings, which always matter). Teams financial situation, and of course the contracts of the players involved, are just not the same.
And last year, a huge part of the decision was cold analytics. Basically, looking at probability vs. hope for a miracle.
Some site (ESPN maybe?) publishes the probability of making the playoffs at any given time for each team. And at that time, the mets were probably in single digits, meaning it was a huge long shot. So sure, sometimes a long shot comes in, but it is not a good business model to always bet the farm on it.
And different teams have unique situations. sometimes it makes more sense to go for it anyway (not expecting it will work). Usually if the team is getting players back, and pretty well set and building for the next year already (IOW, no reason to tear it apart). But for a team that is going to be letting guys go anyway, it makes a hell of a lot of sense to take the opportunity to make the organization better going forward.
Not different at all Stick…
Attendance so far is flat, we lost 70 Mil with this same attendance and cut roughly 50-55 Mil. Do the math and tell me we are profitable?
Santana’s contract is not all that different than Santana’s the only difference is Santana’s is guaranteed not an option.
Wright may not be FA after this year but he is similar in he is having a good year and may be worth more now than next year!
The option is only relevant to US if he is traded he is FA at the end of the year. Only thing different is they can get some compensation!
We got some for Reyes and it is two 2nd rounders at best!
They also cut an entire minor league team as well as other moves like renting out their Latin facility as well. Not to mention some employee downsizing.
Hi Tr,
My own conclusion based upon my own understanding of the evidence as known to us both then and now was that salary dumping was indeed the initial objective. Remember, the Mets were making no concerted effort to deny in the press the reports about them being sellers from the start of the season. In addition, soliciting offers in return for minor league players and cash is the behavior of a seller, not a buyer and not the same as entertaining offers initiated by other clubs.
However, Beltran threw a monkey wrench into the equation by his bat helping to lead the Mets into a wild card race and suddenly putting the front office in a catch-22 situation. They heavily promoted being in that wild card race during broadcasts by playing scoreboard watching and flashing the standings to generate ticket sales while desperately needing to cut back costs immediately at the same time. Imagine the scathing fan backlash and it’s long term effect had a .300 hitter on pace to drive in 100 runs (which he did) been exchanged for one or two low level prospects plus cash? At least saving SOME money and obtaining a top prospect lent credibility to the trade and gathered fan support by many.
This was the same reason the Mets didn’t trade Jose during the summer when they also could have received something in return and saved even more money. Imagine the public fallout with the Mets promoting both that race and Jose’s challenge to win the batting title? Just like Beltran, Jose fouled up the Mets plans to save even more money.
Now the point has been raised by both sides of the camp that the Mets would have made more in revenue than what they would have saved in salary had the transactions not gone through for both Carlos and KRod (even with that closing bonus) and I can understand that calculation. More fans in the seats offsets the cost of those remaining salaries. The question is, therefore, why did they then still go ahead with the deals? Was it indeed for rebuilding and not believing the team had it in them to sustain their excelled play – perhaps?
But could it be that even with reduced ticket prices and the team playing well the fans were not showing up so there was a risk of increased revenue would not be seen until late August or early September and thus not being enough to offset the savings made by trading KRod and the small part of the contract they were no longer responsible for with Beltran.
And also keep in mind that the financial troubles of the Mets were immediate and they had to cut corners no matter what. The team already had trouble meeting operating expenses once and found themselves in the same situation again later on. They fired ten percent of their administrative staff. They required CRG to get their financial house back in order.
So my guess is that they really were hoping to save more but that Jose, KRod, Beltran and all the kids threw an unexpected monkey wrench into the situation so they had to settle for less savings. They were winning on the field but losing on the ledger books. And, as many point out, the Wilpons had the worry of the upcoming civil suit hanging over their shoulders.
We won’t ever really know what was discussed behind closed doors unless Fred takes my suggestion about again being tipsy and the question raised during an interview.
Again, the question must be asked – would the front office had done things differently had the financial situation been different. Would other teams in their position with their type of roster and farm system not have become buyers by absorbing the contracts of overpaid veterans from other teams needing cash infusions for a two month rental? Would these teams have changed courses just to obtain a Zach Wheeler?
From the day he was hired, Sandy Alderson emphasized how the Mets had to make cut backs for the roster payroll was affecting their maneuverability regarding player decisions.
Well, they no longer have five of those contracts (Perez, Castillo, Reyes, Beltran and KRod) to be concerned about and the money saved by not having these players has been put back in the coffer, not re-invested in even some small part to player personnel. In fact, the downsizing has continued.
That’s why I believe the motive was salary dumping all the time and they simply could not make all the moves they wanted to because the players who were helping the young kids turn the team into a competitor were not the those Sandy got on the cheap and had hoped would do so (i.e, Young, Carasco, Capuano, Boyer, Bucholz, etc.) but the ones we already had in the form of KRod, Beltran and Reyes in which the franchise could no longer afford to carry.
Joey, again that is just not logical in regards to Beltran. There are plenty reports saying the Mets were willing to most or even all of his contract in order to get back the best prospect possible. There were NO salary motives in trading Beltran except for the fact they had no intentions of signing him the next year.
Tell me something TRS if you didn’t have enough money to eat do you cut money out of the food bdget or look to increase the money you make instead?
people are complaining we don’t develop enough prospects yet we cut the development budget!
People complain we are losing money but never wonder if the focus was keeping and improving attendance would we still have financial difficlties.
If attendance is flat from last year how many more than last year would we have if Reyes was resigned?
Beltran kept?
K-Rod winning games last year to give people some hope that they might see some winning baseball this year from the get go?
I have no desire to rehash this. Readers can just search our names and find the answers to these questions in about 15 other post for the last 6 months.
If you note he also said Dumping K-Rod gave him payroll Flexability it never got him either!
The other side wanted to see the team dismantled and were hoping to get a gaggle of kids for it.
But they didn’t get what they wanted which is why the full court press to say Wheeler was more than anyone expected to get!
And take note many think we are going to get a gaggle of kids for Wright offerred to us as well.
more than Beltran got….If it happens it will look more like K-Rods deal than Beltran’s!
Those articles where everywhere way before the trade was made. They weren’t planted by the Mets afterwards. I have heard of conspiracy theories put sometimes you guys are amazing.
Yeah always an unnamed source and always only in the NY market!
You didn’t see a single article saying they gave p too much for Beltran in the SF papers did you?
Why?
Because they knew they got a steal!
Jayson Stark, July 26th:
“They asked the Giants for Zack Wheeler, the best pitcher in their system, or Gary Brown, their most highly rated outfield prospect. “Not happening,” the Giants told them.”
“Here’s their problem,” said an official of one team. “They’ve got a guy who’s just a rental. You can’t sign him [because he's a Scott Boras client]. And even if they eat the money [about $6 million left this year], you get no draft picks if you lose him. So what do they expect?”
Ian O’Connor July 18th:
“The Mets got nothing for K-Rod, but they’ll get something for Beltran. Can they get a top-three prospect from an organization with a very good minor league system? I don’t think so. But can they get a legitimate prospect for Beltran? Yes.”
Ken Davidoff July 25th: ‘there isn’t much confidence within the industry that the Mets will be able to get a top-flight prospect for Beltran.’
Andy Martino: July 24th: Zach Wheeler, RHP, Giants
See Brown, Domonic. The Mets would love another team’s top pitching prospect. But for a two-month rental? Sources say the Giants would rather give prospects than money. Let’s say they budge. Giving up the 21-year-old Wheeler (7-5, 3.99 ERA with 98 Ks in 88 IP in High Single-A), or Brandon Belt would be one big budge indeed.
“Beltran is not going to the Rangers, tweets Rosenthal. The Giants are his presumed frontrunner. He says the Mets had asked about Giants prospects Zack Wheeler and Gary Brown. They won’t get Wheeler, but Rosenthal says “we’ll see” on Brown.”
“The Mets have been turned down on requests for Mike Minor, Julio Teheran, or Arodys Vizcaino of the Braves, Zack Wheeler or Gary Brown of the Giants, and Domonic Brown or Jarred Cosart of the Phillies, reports ESPN’s Jayson Stark. Stark says the Mets are telling teams the Beltran deal isn’t about money, and the team that offers the best players will get him.”
“One team says Brian Sabean’s off-limits prospects are Zack Wheeler, Heath Hembree, and Gary Brown, along with Brandon Belt. ”
It is highly doubtful that the Giants would part with Zack Wheeler or that the Phillies would move Domonic Brown in a deal for Beltran, tweets Buster Olney of ESPN.com.
“General managers eyeing Zack Wheeler and Brandon Belt may want to think twice. Sabean suggested some of the team’s top young players are virtually untouchable. “There are guys we definitely won’t trade, and baseball people know that, too,” Sabean said.”
Need more?
the way it played out, the team that has to really be kicking themselves is the Phils. Brown is seemingly lost forever in the minors (certainly not part of the team this year), and given that the offense cost them another shot at the WS (or deeper in the playoffs), beltran could have been enough to put them over the top.
sucks for them, but that’s the stress of being a GM I guess!
Yep we read similar things about an even worse player called Burnett…
How did Cashman handle it?
Sandy caved because he just wanted something and he could have easily held out and waited until Midnight of the deadline to make that deal!
I bet he would have gotten either another kid or some salary paid if he had!
“Yeah always an unnamed source and always only in the NY market!”
Again, I proved that was not the case and most of baseball did not think that the Mets could net a top pitching prospect in return for Beltran. They also could not wait until the night before the deadline due to a clause in Beltran’s contract so there wasn’t a lot of time left and you also could have lost the one team willing to trade a top prospect in the process.
A few days after the Beltran trade, Gary Cohen said during a game telecast that the Indians had offered 3 minor leaguers for Beltran but none of them had the ceiling of a Zack Wheeler. That was the best deal out there for the 34 year old Beltran who had no compensation attached to him like most players do. Most baseball insiders thought there was no way the Giants would part with Wheeler for a 2 month rental but when Brian McCann went down the Giants feared the Braves would move in on Beltran and they caved. Since then SFG fans have raked Sabean over the coals for making that deal, especially since they didn’t resign Beltran.
And until Wheeler actually does what you all think he will it’s just as likely that those three together would have given s more than Wheeler himself will!
This is the problem you gys have when you cite Wheeler, he’s as mch an unknown as anyone else we cold have gotten, he’s got a higher cieling WOW But having a higher cieling individually does not trump the cieling of all the kids combined and those kids could be sed to get the next Cliff Leee or halladay now couldn’t they?
oh please TRS you showed NO SUCH THING!
I went down your list of sources only one truly named was Sabean himself and what he said was bull because Wheeler wasn’t untochable!
Not a single name was used in any of the others all you had were reporters who cold have all been quoting the same wrong Yahoo!
Pehaps the guy from Cleveland who wanted to get Beltran for his kids and didn’t want Sandy holding ot for Wheeler!
The only names you listed tere were reporters none were GMs but Sabean who lied!
A GM will always take 1 top prospect over 3 marginal prospects any day of the week. Quality over quanity. You’re not getting a Lee or Halladay with 3 marginal prospects anyway. And if you get lucky enought to make that happen you already have marginal prospects in your system, you don’t have to trade for them do you?
Just a heads up cause I see you do it all the time. ridiculous is spelled the way I just spelled it not with an E like the way you spell it. rEdiculous, replace the E with an I and you’re good to go.
More pontification of supposition sold under the guise of fact!
Metsie, that’s a nice theory that you think they could have traded him in the off-season when he was due $17.5 million.
The problem with that is, he was a free agent this year and got 0 offers. None. Nada. Zip. He had to accept arbitration from the Brewers to be a setup man.
So please stop with the theory that his value would have netted better young players in the off-season when teams had a chance to bring him in and NOT lose prospects and they chose not to.
Yet he is making 8 Mil only two more than Francisco!
You seem to sidestep the issue that if he had remained with us he would have had better SAVE numbers increasing his value!
Setup men don’t command the same money or interests as closers do!
And I won’t even go into rehashing his willingness to waive the option if he could remain a closer!
You say he had no reason to but he had every reason to stay a closer with us as opposed to getting traded to someone who would not use him as a closer!
After the reade the motivation to waive it was to get to free Agency sooner not to just get whatever he could for the option!
i know your opinion that all players care about is money doesn’t fit that scenario but that says more about your opinion than the situation with K-Rod!
In what world do you live in where KRod from July-September would have woken teams up to his value?
You think if he stayed a closer with us teams would have been like “ohhhh okay yea that guy!”
Do you think teams weren’t scouting him? It was very clear he was available, so the notion that teams didn’t get a look at him is just wrong. Unless we’re now going to claim teams don’t send scouts to look at players?
Every single team in MLB had a chance to go to KRod this winter and say “we want you to be our closer and we’ll pay you the same or more than you’ll get in arbitration to be an 8th inning guy.”
They didn’t. My proof? He took arbitration to be an 8th inning guy.
That’s all the proof I need that there was little to no market for him. You can come up with any dream scenarios you’d like but the truth is on my side.
The world where 40+ saves makes you a pretty good closer!
He had 23 when he left!
wold have easily had 20 More before the season was done!
saves are a deceiving stat. Look at the turnover for the league leaders every season. Its Mariano Rivera and like 5 new guys every year.
And they are always on good teams. These guys are coming in where success is all but assured.
If you look at his peripherals, Rodriguez was having an OK season. Not a “give him $17.5 million for 3 innings a week” type of season.
Yeah Donal ALL stats are decieving! This is why you put so much stock in them!
Point is stats are what determine yor value!
Whether you choose to believe that or not!
Actually stats and potential are what drives contracts. What you don’t want to get in the habit of is paying for past performance instead of future results.
Just because something is popular does not make it good. Or are you going to tell me the Jersey Shore is the pinnacle of entertainment?
Some stats can be deceiving. ERA and BA for example. They both need context. You can have a pitcher with a low ERA simply because he has a great defense behind him or has a good BABIP against. That is why you need things like FIP and K/BB. A guy can have a high BA because his BABIP is crazy high. You’d need to see things like LD% and such.
Some stats are just plain useless because they credit an individual for a result that was a team usually effort. Like pitcher wins, saves and RBI.
And what drives the potential? Past performance and Consistency of History!
If K-Rod ended last season with 40 saves he would have a much bigger contract than he has right now becase it wold have shown the consistency!
Remember the spreadsheet doesn’t know WHY K-Rod’d saves went down when it’s doing the math!
So any metric that tries to talk of potential will rank him lower merely because of situation it doesn’t percieve or can take into accont when the calculator starts!
So you’re suggesting MLB team executives are not smart enough to figure out what KRod’s pace of saves would have been had he not been traded to a team that didn’t need a closer?
If somebody in MLB wanted KRod to be their closer, he’d be their closer today. It doesn’t matter what he did from July-September. Teams aren’t dumb, they don’t just forget that KRod “used to be” a closer.
Only 5 teams signed a new closer this off-season, which means you only had 5 chances to trade KRod for “good young talent”
Phillies, Miami, Cincy, Mets, Toronto and Texas.
If Texas or Cincy wanted him, they would have gone to get him instead of grabbing Joe Nathan and Ryan Madson. Toronto clearly waited for a cheaper option and was in no rush to spend a lot on a closer. Miami and Philly giving the Mets good young talent for KRod? I highly doubt it.
There was no market for him in July, and there would have been even less of a market for him in the winter based on his skyrocketing contract value.
If any of those teams wanted him, they could have gotten him without losing any of their young talent.
Hey your the one who says they all rely heavily on statistical analysis in their FA pursits, not me!
If yor correct that they do it is nlikely K-Rods name wold show p on their list of players to go after in a closer’s role!
Do I? I don’t remember ever saying that teams cannot figure out that KRod only had 20 something saves because he was only closing games through early July.
I am pretty sure every GM in baseball knew why KRod didn’t have 40+ saves in 2011. I’m also pretty sure any team that needed a closer this year, discussed in detail whether or not KRod warranted a contract offer seeing as he accepted arbitration at the end of the winter meetings.
“Remember the spreadsheet doesn’t know WHY K-Rod’d saves went down when it’s doing the math!”
Unless there is a column for game finishes or it denotes what innings he was brought in to work in which games.
Both of which are on BR.
Also, they can record his velocity and see how it stood up in each appearance and as the season wore on. Or how often his breaking ball was hit. Or how many home runs and extra base hits he gave up.
And that he is 30.
They can see how his stats are trending and plot how he will do in his tenure with them.
Stat sheets can tell you plenty if you ask the right questions.
Your the one who says they all use statistical analysis and the response is
“I don’t remember ever saying that teams cannot figure out that KRod only had 20 something saves because he was only closing games through early July. ”
Non sequiter and typical change of direction coming from you.
If they use statistical analysis to create their want lists it’s not they ythey couldn’t figre it out it’s that they didn’t!
Becase they let the spreadsheet decide who to look at!
Metsie, you’re just being dumb now. First, I’ve never said all teams do is use stats for free agents. I actually believe in scouting, I just don’t believe it’s the only tool to use. So once again rather than you telling me what I believe, there you have it.
Secondly, you’re arguing a point that cannot be proven. The bottom line is this:
Every single Major League Baseball team had at least 1 month to contact KRod and make him a financial offer if they felt he should be their closer. On the day the winter meetings ended, KRod accepted an arbitration offer and agreed to stay with a team that already had a closer.
There isn’t a MLB GM out there who believes KRod can save 40+ effectively and chose to not sign him simply because from July-October he was a setup man. If David Wright was moved to LF in July, and a team needed a 3B you think they’d say “well he didn’t play 3B for 3 months so I have no idea how good he is there.” Absolutely not.
If anybody WANTED him to be their closer, he’d be with that team right now. Therefore, you can NOT say to me teams would have TRADED prospects for a $17.5million KRod this winter when they wouldn’t even pay him HALF of that to be their closer.
The Mets dealt him away because he embarrassed the team and then was set to earn more money than any closer in the sport including the best ever. He was not and never was worth that contract, and so they rid themselves of that mistake.
End of story. Stop trying to make it something it is not. You’re arguing for the sake of arguing and you’re trying to appear like the smartest guy in the room when you’re just the crazy guy in the corner.
“Secondly, you’re arguing a point that cannot be proven.”
Hello Pot!
“There isn’t a MLB GM out there who believes KRod can save 40+ effectively”
Why would they think that considering his Save pace last year?
Tell US!
Show YOUR proof and not just your supposition!
As for your record on what teams do well it pretty mch speaks for itself despite your every attempt to change what you said after the fact!
Because their not Baseball GM’s by accident!
Every team in the league, ESPECIALLY the NL has a scouting report on KRod. You’re asking me to prove that MLB teams can do their jobs better than you?
they aren’t dumb. They know that Francisco Rodriguez is a closer by trade. Everybody knows that he didn’t close games in Milwaukee because of Axford. It’s not like people are thinking “hmm that’s so weird, why does KRod only have 20 something saves?”
Just stop. You’re being ridiculous. The amount of research a team does on a potential acquisition far exceeds anything you can tell me right now
And OH BY THE WAY he has a sports agent named Scott Boras. Do you know that Scott Boras creates an in depth report about his player for every team that even MAY be interested?
You think Scott Boras doesn’t have the mental capacity to realize he can sell his client’s talents as a closer if teams wanted him to be their closer?
Stop assuming MLB executives and Scott Boras are not equipped with the baseball knowledge to know that KRod didn’t have 40 saves because he was traded to a team with a closer.
The interest from teams simply was not there. End of story.
Yep they know K-Rod is a closer by trade…
If they hadn’t relied on all that statisitical analysis that didn’t mention K_Rod in the closer list because he didn’t close he might have gotten a better contract offer to be a closer!
You mention K-Rod to any of them I’m sure they would say he is a good closer!
But who mentioned K-Rod to them when it came time to go shopping?
Did the statistical analysis mention him? NO!
Thats my point!
By the time they noticed he had accepted arbitration!
Metsie, what are you talking about?
I would bet my life on the fact that Scott Boras created a detailed report (and by the way he uses stats) to sell his player (KRod) to teams AS A CLOSER.
And guess what happened?
Nobody bought him. Nobody. Boras will provide you with every single piece of information he can to make your mind up with regards to any of his players. He wanted KRod to get a closer deal, he wanted KRod to get a long term deal.
The market simply was not there for KRod. So if the market wasn’t there for him on an OPEN MARKET, then there is not a chance in the world that the Mets could have TRADED him in the offseason for GOOD young players.
He wasn’t wanted. Don’t blame Sandy Alderson for that. Blame the player.
Yep they know K-Rod is a closer by trade…
If they hadn’t relied on all that statisitical analysis that didn’t mention K_Rod in the closer list because he didn’t close he might have gotten a better contract offer to be a closer!
You mention K-Rod to any of them I’m sure they would say he is a good closer!
But who mentioned K-Rod to them when it came time to go shopping?
Did the statistical analysis mention him? NO!
Thats my point!
By the time they noticed he had accepted arbitration!
I’m sure he did and didn’t get a chance to even present it to a single GM because they only converse with Boras when it suits them or it is a player they already decided they want not because Boras has paperwork to show them!
Perhaps Boras himself is the reason K-Rod got no offeres because Boras asked for the moon and they all said forget it!
leaving K-Rod with only one option take the setup arbitration!
Lots of ifs you have there and they work no better than my Ifs now do they?
Show me a GM who has said categorically K-Rod could not be a closer!
Or show me stats that show he could not have had 40 saves if he stayed our closer which is the real problem you have here as this whole thing is just subterfuge to get away from what I orignally said K-Rod was a 40+ Save capable closer and could have had that many last year.
Okay Metsie
“I’m sure he did and didn’t get a chance to even present it to a single GM because they only converse with Boras when it suits them or it is a player they already decided they want not because Boras has paperwork to show them!”
— This proves you do not know how a sports agent operates. A baseball GM doesn’t say “hey send your portfolio on KRod” Boras sends it out to teams as they hit the market. All agents do actually.
“Perhaps Boras himself is the reason K-Rod got no offeres because Boras asked for the moon and they all said forget it!”
— Perhaps they didn’t like the fact KRod punches people in team clubhouses. That is more likely than nobody wanting KRod because of his agent, since teams work with Boras all the time.
“Show me a GM who has said categorically K-Rod could not be a closer!”
— I never said he CAN’T be a closer. I said nobody wanted to pay him what he wanted to BE a closer. Thus if he was making $17.5 million, they wouldn’t pay that AND pay with young players as well. It doesn’t even make sense. Clearly nobody wanted KRod for $8mil+ to be their closer, so why would they want him for $17.5mil plus prospects?
You prove nothing all you got is snakeoil supposition and ASSumption to make your case!
I got stats!
Stats showed K-Rod was on a pace to be a 40 save closer last season!
You got something to disprove that be my guest but lets please stop with the TICKET TAKER acting like he is an expert on how the MLB works bit because it’s pretty sad!
I have done more work for the MLB in a week than you have done in your life!
It maybe in the broadcast side of things but thats more than you can say!
“You got something to disprove that be my guest but lets please stop with the TICKET TAKER acting like he is an expert on how the MLB works bit because it’s pretty sad!”
Was that you trying to take a swipe at my former career running a ticket department for a pro team? Simply because I know the practices of pro teams with regards to gate openings? And
Also I know somebody who has worked closely with Boras and with Moorad on creating those documents I speak of. You have proven to never open up and understand you don’t know everything there is to know about baseball.
There are people out there that know more than you, deal with it.
“There are people out there that know more than you”
Yes Jessup there are unfortunatly for you, you ain’t one of them!
Not only that but for the Mets to have him it would cost 17.5M so the 8M point is moot.
And I’ll say it again ….
You MIGHT have a point if K-Rod was unwilling to waive the Option for cash but we all know he was perfectly willing we just wasn’t interested!
Willing in the event that we signed him to a new multiyear deal. Yeah that would have been a GREAT idea. LOL. Of course he could have just said no at the end of the year and have ridden out the 17.5M. Do you know what kind of deal it would have taken to get him to give up that 17.5? I would guess something like 3/36 at least.
And if he said no at the end of the year we would have gotten some good compensation picks for him!
You know better picks than even letting reyes go would get you?
highly unlikely he was going to reject his vesting option of 17.5mill (not even sure he could, to become a FA?) and he had no interesting in waiving that option, it was his ace in a hole.
he only did so after getting traded since it had effectively become worthless, and in fact had negative value (no chance of picking up any saves along the way).
Oh Any your jst being rediculous..
What was he holding that Ace for?
TO REMAIN A CLOSER!
if given a choice of not waiving it for us and being traded to be a setup man or Waiving it and remaining a closer he had just as mch reason to waive it for s and remain a closer as he did once it was worthless and coldn’t get him what he was holding tha card for!
You know I did a post the other day to see how much of a difference there was so far through 16 games from 2011 to 2012 regarding the reported attendance according to Baseball-Reference and the difference was 1.
http://realdirtymets.com/2012/05/07/citi-field-2011-2012-attendance-comparison-thru-16-games/
LOL, I saw that. The difference ONE can make.
NJ: Tracking attendance is a tricky thing. There are so many different factors that go into it. For example, a lesser ticket price this year may be bringing in different people that didn’t go last year.
Also this year the Mets have had a home opener, plus 2 friday, 3 saturday and 2 sunday games
During the same time (thru May 8) in 2011, they had 2 friday, 2 saturday and 2 sunday and 1 of their friday night gates was stolen by their home opener.
During the school year, fri-sat-sun are your big ticket items. That plus the home opener. So last year’s schedule actually hurts the Mets when you compare it to 2012 to date.
If you look at their 2012 weekday games (non home opener) here is what you see:
An average gate attendance of 24,407
If you look at their 2011 weekday games here is what you see:
An average gate attendance of 27,642
If you do the weekend games in 2012, you get an average of 31,160 and in 2011 30,216
So the weekday attendance is what is most alarming. A weekday ticket is a good barometer of how your sales are going.
I understand one can dig in and dissect it 7 ways from Sunday and I understand there are many variables that have to be considered that accounts for these figures. But in it’s simplest form the difference is 1.
A simple man, with simple needs…
Baseball is already so complicated as it is.
In either case the difference is never truly 1, that is tickets sold, not people in the seats. The Mets sold way more seats to businesses on higher discounts and perks this year than they did last, as well they should have.
The telltale heart for attendance is how it plays out in the summer, and do they exceed the year prior.
Agreed
so far on the right path. The key was win some games, and get some new guys in to interest fans, to create a buzz.
If they can keep this up for a bit, the fans will wander back in.
As is always the case, if you produce a good product people will come.
Yes but isn’t that ONLY 1 a bad thing?
Is that 1 extra attendee going to make up for the 20 Million we didn’t cover with payrioll cts this year?
Considering the lowered ticket prices, Extra seating that is now available and all the winning they have done it is quite alarming and troubling that attendance no matter how optimistic you try to make it sound is up by only 1 person!
Thats not going to balance the books and not going to put Sandy into a position to want to keep Wright on a long term basis!
I wrote this in September of Last year
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/09/economics-101-the-met-financial-situation.html
I also wrote these long before that:
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/06/forget-your-agendas-and-just-root-for-your-team.html
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/09/building-a-contender-how-far-away-are-we.html
I feel quite vindicated right now in what I said in those pieces. And the ones who now complain when we talk about how good this team COULD be and how close it was then are now being painted as those who have no faith by many of the folks who commented against my posts.
It was the doomsayers who wanted a broom taken to this team who now are trying to paint those who said this team was not so far off as doomsayers!
Just a few examples:
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/09/time-to-sell-the-team.html
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/10/no-thanks-to-c-j.html
best Quote from that one is
“I think we need to start understanding as a group that this team is not ready to win it all.”
Well if “so far” is any indication the ones who said put the broom back into the closet, the ones who built macros to show ALL of the young Kids Omar didn’t leave for Sandy to build with and the ones who claimed this team was in a comparison with the Phillies just about Equal in everything but pitching have seemingly been more correct than the ones who said this team is not ready to win, this team has no solid young core to build around and this team needs to be built p for a number of years before it could even HOPE to compete in the NL East!
Vindication for those who didn’t panic and didn’t give p on this team as far back as Last June and July!!
Hi North,
Thanks for the link. But I agree with Jessep – there are a lot of variables going into that comparision.
There have been special promotions not available this time last season – like the $2.50 seats, free weekend game tickets for many attending the season opener, etc. Any data out there to determine if this had a signficant effect on attendance or that it would only have insignficantly changed that difference from one to maybe one-hundred.
Problem for the Wilpons is that in 2009 they mentioned counting on an average 39,000 per game at the ticket prices established back then to break even. Drawing an average 27,000 fans at much lower prices will still be a tremendous loss of resources they were countng upon. If more start coming to Citi Field, that means dynamic pricing will go into effect which could cause many to stop coming once again, making revenue as unpredictable as the day to day value of a stock.
Thanks as always,
Joe
Hi Joey D,
I understand and I already said as much. It is the reason why I used the info I did like when the games were played, who they were played against, what the team record was when they played and where they were in the standings and that as you and Jessep have pointed out is but a small sample of things to consider. I know all these things play a factor. I will let the individual if he or she so chooses dig deeper. I just wanted to show again that in it’s simplest form the difference is 1.
Are you counting tickets sales or people through the gate? That is a big detail as well.
Baseball-Reference counts ticket sales. Though if you know a reliable source that counts people through the gate I would like the link. I have been unable to find one myself.
pretty sure you won’t find that reported anywhere. The mets know, but they ain’t telling us!
That’s what I figured as well but since Donal asked what was I using Ticket sales or people through the gate I thought he knew of a source that did count people through the gate and that is why he was asking.
I spent some time Googling it just now
It is apparently a policy not just of the Mets, but pretty much all over pro sports. They will announce the tickets sold since most are advance sales and/or giveaways, but people through a turn style is another story altogether.
well, in the old days, the AL announced ticket sales, and the NL turnstiles clicks. Can’t remember how long ago that they standardized to ticket sales for both leagues, but since then, I don’t remember ever seeing fannies through the gate reported.
and of course, why guess the attendance is so hard to do on games where 10K people come dressed as empty seats!
From what I’ve been reading, they stopped doing it in the late 80s.
Right. In every sport, whether is minor league baseball, basketball, mlb etc. The announced attendance is always tickets sold.
In my first year in minor league ball we actually had to sit and count ticket stubs. Because ownership wants a # of bodies in the stadium. But they do not publicize that.
Luckily in year 2 we spent the offseason wiring up the building and used scanners for the tickets so we could get an accurate “in house” number.
Hi North,
Was trying to find out more information about that myself. I don’t even know if the tickets given out for future games at the home opener counted as a ticket sale or a person just coming through the gate as well.
I can tell you that in my experience a “comp ticket” does count in the total attendance #.
Think of “attendance” as how many tickets were printed and handed to people. Not how many were sold.
An in-house attendance number is for internal purposes. With scanners you can track how many comp tickets were turned in, how many season tickets are used, and how many people come through the gate
Looks as if our new kids have their own version of the “Hunger Games.”
Stay Hungry, Young Mets!
I do miss Ruben and Josh a lot, but Jason Bay…not much!
Bay can just take the entire year off to heal up, and pretty sure no one would really ever notice. or care.
Well I want Bay back and I’m probably in the minority but i don’t care. They won 4 in a row early with him and he was showing signs of his old self with 3 HRs already…and it’s May 10 with a longggggg season and long summer ahead.
So get well soon Jason Bay.
as long as he platoons and doesn’t replace Kirk.
only 57 PAs this year, but as with last year, doing nothing vs. RHP (poor #s, and 12Ks in 39 ABs), but very productive vs. LHP (2/ of 3 HRs and 4 of 5 RBIs). Continuing a trend from 2011.
Yes, get well soon Jason Bay so you can take your seat as a valuable bench player.
Kirk and Duda are the future, Bay is Pittsburgh and Boston’s past. And nothing to us. Weak, slow, unproductive and injury-prone nowadays.
Bay will start 3 games a week giving the 3 starters a rest, will come in in late-game double switches, and will be a pinch-hit bat off the bench.
He’s most definitely done as a starter unless Kirk or Duda’s games fall off a cliff, or Ike regresses for weeks and Duda gets moved to 1B and Ike gets sent down.
Ah, pining for Jason Bay.
Classic.
And so wrong.
Those who produce get a seat at the table, and those who don’t ride the pine, my MMO colleague.
Bayonne–Do you still want Mike Jacobs back?
He may be available!
You know it is interesting that his ripping someone for changing their opinion on a player yet supported Jacobs.
Not sure I would go as far as to credit him with being “interesting” but I see your point!
72, I said this back when Spring raining started, nobody gave the New York football GIANTS a chance of winning the Super Bowl. The so called experts had them slated for dead last. It looks like our Mets are taking a page from the GIANTS. The games are played on the field, not on paper, and why not the Mets?
This team is playing against the world it seems.. Collins may not be a sharp manager, but these kids love playing for him and are doing everything the right way.. good job!
As much as I didn’t like the comments early, I guess they are working. They started the us against the world comments back in March.
“So what if we fall behind early. Who cares? We got nine innings.” ~ Justin Turner
Gotta love Turner. Right now, this is a team who apparently never feels out of it until the game is over.
Great quote by JT! It’s so obvious that these guys don’t stop battling. No need to have a conniption when the opposition goes yard in the 2nd. Yogi said it, “It ain’t over ’til it’s over!”
Have I ever mentioned how I love Justin Turner? Quote of the year right there.
how much*
“So what if we fall behind early. Who cares? We got nine innings.” ~ Justin Turner
To quote one of the great thinkers of the modern era
“I DIDN’T HEAR NO BELL!”
And I can imagine Justin shouting out that entire sentence ” I didn’t hear no bell — get up you sonofabitches!”
HA!
North,
How about Justin going even further when we’re down by a few runs in the ninth with
“What? Over? Did you say “over”? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!”
Joe
Joey D,
If were going to do movie references then I have to go to Bill Pullman is Independence Day.
“We will not go quietly into the night!” We will not vanish without a fight! We’re going to live on! We’re going to survive! Today we celebrate our Independence Day!
North,
With that last quote, you got me going like Maynard G. Krebbs – “gee, I’m getting all misty”.
Ike will be there. I never lost confidence in my guy but once this kid gets going he’s going to be the 35-45 HR a year stud i know he’ll be and the Mets will have a bonafide stud on their hands
Man I hope you are right. I thought so too but seeing him damn guessing at everything had me worried. Hopefully he continues to make adjustments.
Bayonne — Don’t go on another spree defaming and lying about me with an opinion that is different than yours. What do you claim I said that “came down hard on Ike Davis”? Put your mouth on the line and tell me what it was.
To help you out, I pointed out to Vinnie B that Ike has had three or four stellar months in MLB. Is this what you’re whining about? Facts are facts. Ike had a great April-May in 2010 and a great September-October in 2010. He has either been hurt or an average offensive player the rest of the time.
Your turn, Bayonne. Don’t hide from the facts.
stuff it Des, You’ve been on that kid since he came up but that’s you. You only speak out against Ike and Ruben when they’re having problems and as soon as you open you’re disgusting, dishonest mouth they coincidentally start hitting. You tried to reduce Ike’s impact by narrowing it down to a couple of months of productivity because you’re sitting there waiting to say I told you so in case he fails. He’s not going to fail. Are you gonna now challenge me on Ike? You lost on Ruben and now you want more? You’re a idiot.
So keep it up you have a stellar track record of speaking too soon. You even said that Reese Havens not only would be playing 2B on the Mets ahead of Tejada, you said he could be a better hitter than Ike Davis too. You’ve been on Davis’ johnson since he came up.
Your evaluation of young talent is the worst, THE WORST of anybody on this site so go back under your rock. You’ve been too visible lately, you’re a old has been and a never was been.
“Des August 3, 2011 at 12:04 am
Tejada will never be a good hitter. He makes contact now, so that’s not the issue, but his forearms and his wrists lack snap and strength. Bayonne you can’t handle the truth. You’ve made incessant attacks on Wright and Murphy. So don’t get soft and cuddly now. Your kid is mediocre. Last year with the Mets he ranked 77 defensively out of 92 major leaguers who played 2B in 50 or more games”
Tejada will never be a good hitter. He makes contact now, so that’s not the issue, but his forearms and his wrists lack snap and strength”
Damn… Just admit you’re wrong
When Bayonne the Ball Boy is wrong on a current issue, he drags up old stuff. I didn’t come down hard on Ike this season but you’re too much of a lying gutter creep to man up. That is what I was referring to but which you can’t deal with the truth. You were either lying or simply misquoting my Ike reference and like the little child you are, you whine and crawl away with irrelevant sniping statements.
Just the other day I said Ruben is now playing good ball and that I want him back as soon as possible. Nice of you to not reference what I actually said. For the record, I still don’t see him as a long term solution. He is going to have to add pop, but with his body build, it will be difficult. He’s not skinny, just not strong.
Gee Guys,
After reading all the other things being said back and forth, I guess I got off kind of easy with my takes on 2011, saber metrics and Sandy!
the old stuff is new stuff – you still feel the same way so who the HELL are you kidding you stinking creep.
Just before Tejada had those 2 4 hit games he was struggling for a bit which prompted you to finally emerge from under your rock to say something and as soon as you did the young man EXPLODED….again. And it’s the same case with Ike, as soon as you see an opening that in the you feel you may have been right about him..he starts to wake up.
2 bad choices to pick on loser. Your evaluation is the absolute WORST by far of anybody on this site. And you have a thing against Duda too. Nice going, you predicted splinters for the Mets possible 2/3/4 or 2/3/5 hitters of the future.
Oh..and Tejada IS a long term solution so can the CASE BE CLOSED already? And Ike is a long time solution too.
Oh and just because you wished Ruben well the other day when he got hurt means NOTHING because you haven’t changed your stance, you’re being FORCED to change your stance. Did I wish him well in that post? No. Does it mean I don’t want him well? of course not. I just didn’t say anything that’s all. Now go use some big words on your next post to try and make yourself look smart when in fact you’re making yourself look worse.
you are really one big IDIOT. My God, you saw the Brooklyn Dodgers so that tells me you went through you’re entire life with your eyes closed you ignorant, stubborn, broken down old man
Bayonne Ball Boy is still a childish whiner.
OK, case closed. Next time please don’t lie or mis-characterize what I said about Ike Davis.
You are wasting your time with this miserable, ignorant, pothead, bootlegger numbskull.
Kingman I do not endorse this comment (except for the bootlegger part).
LOL!
Hey, I had a few spare minutes and couldn’t resist.
But I did go to our site first.
I can’t believe you are still arguing with Alex!
I think it’s like 5 years in the running or something. It’s like two brothers, only one still lives at home in mom’s basement…. and the other one lives in the shed out back. LOL.
Well, I just hope you are in the shed!
That was my attempt at some poor Slingblade reference. LOL.
Ah! Gotcha.
There are plenty of “real fans” who are/were simply sick of the sad sack ownership and their dippy approach. Claiming fans superiority is always a bad card to play.
Off Topic: I am putting this here since it at least is a quote though not from a Met.
“He’s 100 percent better than what I thought,’’ manager Ozzie Guillen said Tuesday of Ramirez’s play at third.”
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/10/2793655/miami-marlins-hanley-ramirez-has.html
Is that an insult or a compliment? It reads as if he thought very lowly about him at 3rd.
Well, North.
Since we’ve been on a movie kick, I’ll answer using the words of the immortal Curly Q. Link (aka Howard) after his drill instructor told him, Moe and Larry they were like the Three Stooges:
“Hey, that’s an insult!”.
Nyuck, Nyuck.
Hey, it’s kind of low keyed tonight with a Met game to watch. Wife and I are watching the film “Monsters”, if you happened to have already seen it.
Hey Joey D,
Yes actually did see the film. If you like that type of genre films I recommend checking out “Cloverfield” and “Super 8″ if you have yet to do so and also “I Am Number Four”. The latter 2 I found especially entertaining.
Hi North,
Have Cloverfield. At first I was very disappointed in the film but then the second time around learned how to appreciate it for the unusual way it made a monster film.
Haven’t yet seen Super 8 but know that Showtime is now airing “I Am Number Four” so will set the DVR based upon your recommendation.
I have HBO, Showtime and Starz and since I love collecting movies, I dub copies from the HD feed (down converted, of course, to 480i) via S-video onto an excellent Panasonic recorder which has a flexible speed adjustment so I can use the least amount of space necessary on the DVD for the best picture quality. Playing back up-converted back to 1080i, I would say the picture quality, compared to the original broadcast, would be about an 8.5 out of ten. With that and Dolby surround instead of 6.1, for the maybe 40 cents it costs me for a blank disc, it is well worth it. Few could afford to buy the commercial discs and make such a collection.
I’m most proud of my silent movie portfolio – love them and can’t get enough. TCM airs a lot of them but it’s this area that I find myself buying them commercially.
Monsters was quite good for I understood the story line and approach the production was getting at. Won’t mention it here for there might be others who haven’t as yet seen it.
Thanks again,
Joe
No problem, sounds like a sweet setup you have there. Hope you enjoy the film.
Thanks for the recommendation, North, am sure I will.
Though I learn toward the old films, my favorite science fiction films are Forbidden Planet, the original “The Thing” (though the remake was more true to the book and good on it’s own) and a British Adaptation of the War of the Worlds that was true to the the original H.G. Wells story (it’s called “H.G. Wells’ The War Of The Worlds”). It was a slow but gripping and authentic in the way it recreated the feel of turn of the century England including special effects that were a throw back to those early days of cinema, which also included an occasional jitter in the picture representative of the dawn of motion pictures.
Know we got off the topic with this but enjoy this type of exchange.
Joe
Hey I grew up watching the 4:30 movie on ABC, Fright Night on WOR and Chiller Theater on WPIX. Movies like Mysterious Island, Mighty Joe Young, Jason & the Argonauts are part of my youth.
North,
Those are all part of my youth too, and won’t deny that the Giant Behemoth with that radiation coming scared the daylights out of me and gave me many a nightmare.
Then you must certainly remember Zacherly and “Joe Junior”! Or when Million Dollar Movie played the same film 16 times in one week (twice during the week and three times on Saturday and Sunday).
Those films were usually shown in a 90 minute time slot and terribly edited for time restraint. So as they began airing with longer time slots, it was like watching a whole new movie with the deleted scenes now back in.
Talking about deleted scenes, we’re all aware of those great ones which were censored out of King Kong by the Hayes Commission before it’s second release. Well, when my wife and I were first dating, Radio City Music Hall had a Thirties Art Deco celebration which included a different 30′s classic each night. When I saw King Kong (one of my all times favorites despite the racial innuendos) was on the bill, I couldn’t wait to go. Seeing Kong on that big Radio City screen that was completely square and hearing the reverberation throughout the gigantic theater was fantastic.
One thing, however. I knew that film backwards and forwards but didn’t realize they had found those deleted scenes. We caught the first showing as Fay Wray was being rescued by Bruce Cabot and started going down the side of the cliff. When Kong breaks through the wall through that door that was conveniently made for his size (:)) he begins going into his thing. But instead of just knocking down the natives throwing spears at him, he suddenly stretches out his arm, grabs one of them and starts eating him! Caught me totally off guard and for some reason got all scared like a kid would. I didn’t know what to expect and when. Guess being one who prefers things to stay on familiar ground, those unexpected things suddenly being seen on the screen when they weren’t supposed to was just too much for this college senior to handle! LOL
You forgot to mention Creature Feature on WNEW5 featuring the Creep! (Lou Steel)
Who used to ask before the news everynight “It’s 10PM Do you know where your children are?” LOL
I have an extensive collection of most of the movies that ever aired on those shows.
Every Weekend I run my own Chiller Theater! I even have the creepy Animation. lol
Lets review shall we?
Jason Stark – No Source named
An Official of one team – NO NAME!
Ian Oconnor – No Source named!
Davidoff – No Source named!
Martino – UNNAMED SOURCES SAY
Rosenthall – NO SOURCE other than rosenthall himself!
Stark – NO SOURCE CITED
ONE TEAM – That is unnamed!
Olney – No Source just opinion of a reporter
Sabean – Only credible source who said Wheeler was untouchable. How reliable of a source would you say that was considering what happened?
Need more?
TRS that was in response to yor list of sorces you think constitutes most of baseball but cold all be the same guy telling any reporter who would listen to him the same thing!
There is only TWO baseball sources and 30+ teams! One of the baseball sources was Sabean who said Wheeler was untouchable so we know how reliable that report was!
Whatever Metsie. You ask, I showed. I will let the readers decide that one. That trade was considered a win by the Mets. Sorry. Again, there are plenty of things to jump on Sandy for and that’s just not one of them. You guys always bark up the wrong tree. Why not focus on the fact that Batista is getting another start? Isn’t that enough?
And what did I say abot all these sorces that you guys have been citing?
All Unnamed and no substance!
The only team sources there could have just as easily been DePodesta setting up the deal as all they could get!
I have focused on batista TRS…
Read this….
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/09/building-a-contender-how-far-away-are-we.html
I said the focs should be pitching, I even suggested rebilding the Pen was fine but I do not think who we went after was!
We needed starting pitching we put too much on Santana’s return and while that hasn’t hurt us yet we lost pelfrey instead.
If we had acqired a backp plan for Santana having issues we would not be in this mess right now!
Here try this on for size as well!
My point remains that trading Krod and Beltran are NOT two things you can get on Sandy for and if you do they make you look foolish. However, there are things out there that are worth getting on him about.
They are examples of what went out (deemed not worth having) compared to what came in (Sandy DiD think was worth having!)
This is the point you are sidestepping!
It speaks to his evaluations of what is good to have and what is not!
And your only justification is MONEY which you tried to tell Joey wasn’t the issue in the first place and what got the comments going today!
Krod was money and Beltran was not. LOL. Things are never white and black. The Mets needed cash and a high ceiling minor league player . They got cash from Krod and a guy rated by many as the top minor leaguer in our organization with the other.
BOTH were Money!
One becase he wanted to cut salary and the other because he didn’t have the money to RETAIN him and decided to get whatever he could!
Both were purely related to the money situation!
If money wasn’t an issue Beltran cold be playing CF right now for us!
“It wasn’t a money move TRS is was a Moneyball move!”
“Only one we should be trading for Players is Beltran. We get no picks for him if he leaves anyway and if we wanted to resign him for the right price we still can if he gets lowball offers in FA.”
Is there a point there or are you just into quoting?
If the beltran move was all we made we wouldn’t be having this conversation would we?
Only one All Star wold have left and we would have 22+ in the win column right now!
We would be 22-9 right atop the NL East!
Maybe you should read this since you seem to think Moneyball has nothing to do with Money…
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/10/r-i-p-moneyball.html
No just quoting you. First you say Beltran wasn’t money then you say Beltran was money. First you say that we shouldn’t have given up and traded Beltran yet last year before the trade you said we should.
Also how to you get that we would have 22 wins? Are you saying that Krod wouldn’t have blown them? I guess he is pitching so poorly because he is still devastated by the trade.
TRS, did you go catch the Minors game?
I wish. I had to pack to head out for the Bison games starting tonight through Sunday! I wish I could figure out a way to see Alex’s boy Familia on Monday night as well.
At least you get to see Harvey pitch Sunday night. Not a bad way to end the weekend. Make sure your camera has batteries.
read my friend read…
MONEYBALL is about Money…jst not CASH money!
I know I am excited. Still can’t believe the coincidence that the Gnats play within 30 minutes of here this weekend too. Makes for a tough decision but I get to see them come back later in the summer.
Didn’t you go to see the Gnats play last year TRS when Ceccilinni got injured?
I did. The Hickory ballpark is incredible. I got to sit right behind the Gnats dugout and talk to a few of them.
That is one of the things I often hear about going to watch games at these minor league parks. You get to be so close to the players.
Especially Single A. I got to buy a general admin ticket and sit where ever I wanted. So I moved to close to the OF for warm ups, behind the dugout, behind the plate, etc.
That sounds cool. On another note I been scanning the Marlins sportspyder feed looks like the fish will make a move to spruce up for us tonight recalling lefty Mike Dunn and calling up outfielder Kevin Mattison.
Seems they have sold out their parking for tonight’s game as well. You know they want nothing more than to avenge their poor showing vs us the last time we faced each other.
So, you have no idea what Rodriguez has done so far this season. His line is pretty much the same as Fransisco.
Yep seen his numbers…Still better than francisco aren’t they?
I guess you jst look at ERA because thats all you can easily look up!
I have other metrics to compare Relievers and closers and have posted them but because your only sorce of knowledge (BREF) doesn’t post them you won’t accept them as real despite the real stats sed to create them!
You want to see them then go read back a week ago where I talked about the pen and their past and current performance!
I saw those stats and they aren’t terrible in terms of things to look at. However, I am not sure they work as well in comparing closers and setup men.
I happen to like late and close as well for relievers especially when comparing closers to setup men.
Krod: .286 with a .838 OPS
Frank: .212 with a .697 OPS.
Of course my stats won’t be as good as your stats. LOL.
“Yep seen his numbers…Still better than francisco aren’t they?”
No. They are more or less even. Fransisco’s K/BB is slightly better and Rodriguez’s WHIP is slightly better.
“I guess you jst look at ERA because thats all you can easily look up!
I have other metrics to compare Relievers and closers and have posted them but because your only sorce of knowledge (BREF) doesn’t post them you won’t accept them as real despite the real stats sed to create them!”
Actually, I go to MLB for quick looks because they have the last 10 games breakdown.
But you are wrong anyway. Their peripherals are about the same.
What stats are you referring to that make Rodriguez worth the extra $12 million he would have gotten from the Mets this year?
How would he get get us an extra 4 wins so far? Keep in mind Fransisco is 8 for 9 is save opportunities and 1-1 in decisions.
I’m going to ignore Meathead here TRS and just talk to you since Meathead in one posts says stats lie then goes and uses stats to make his point. When his therapist gets him sorted out maybe I will revisit his opinions.
As for relievers (and just about ALL relievers it is best to look at how many batters over minimum they face on a per game basis.
BA and OPS can be get inflated by single acts and single innings.
(And truth is so can mine to a degree)
But in my metrics I am attempting to show on average what they give you in any game. And how much trouble they get into on a daily average.
There is no real difference with them as far as setup and closer do. An 8th inning gy is merely a closer type that doesn’t get the same save opportunities the closer will. To guard against that is why I don’t use the saves in the metric at all.
All relievers will have a bad inning or two for varios reasons (overuse, Doesn’t have good stff one day etc)
But by taking the minimm PAs he could have had and comparing it to the nmber of PAs he actually allowed is the best way to determine a reliever’s ability to hold a team and not get it into situations where he leaves a bad situation for some other reliever!
This is one case where sing OBP might be better used than a BA because the walk IS a product of the pitcher and more than the batter!
Showing the minimm to actual ratio of PA you see jst how many basernners are allowed which is the one thing a reliever is spposed to stop from happening.
Sure it will happen hardly any reliever will never give up an OB and to even out the likelihood that he will I created that metric to show just about how many baserunners you can expect per game which in the case of 8th inning and closer is close to a per inning metric as well!
It may be less effective for middle relievers who pitch more than one inning in general which is why the per game metric is made instead!
Again, I am not saying trash your stats. Just saying that looking at how they do in late and close situations in terms of BA, OBP and SLG is most likely just as good of a measure. Also I still believe that comparing your way in terms of setup and closer could have some ramifications. Example a closer is more likely to be left in to battle his way out of trouble where as a setup guy is not. Also a setup guy is more likely to come in with a runner already on base where as a closer is not and finally a setup guy is more likely to pitch in a non-save situation than a closer is.
Metsie, that is just a less telling version of WHIP. It doesn’t compensate for the early season “one inning can skew it all” issue you mentioned and it doesn’t account for errors by the fielders.
And by the way, BR calls what you just described “batters faced”.
To get your average, we can just take BF and divide it by 3(innings pitched) because 3 batters is the minimum a guy will face if he starts and ends an inning. 1 is pretty much perfect. you are facing the minimum. The higher the number, the worse you are doing.43
So, Rodriguez, so far has faced 62 batters over 14 1/3 inning. That gives us an average of 1.44 (coincidentally, close to his WHIP)
Fransisco has faced 61 batters over 13 innings. Average= 1.56 A difference of .12. And that doesn’t account for errors made by the defense.
TRS – Wat hit was given up on a BA of .300?
What Hit was given up in a SLG of .450?
As I said OBP does tell you something but doesn’t distingish hits from mere walks. Bt as I said my metric does use it to some degree.
What is the purpose of a reliever? To get people out!
Yo can say thats the job of all pitchers bt not so mch for starters who it is fine to give up hits provided they get strung along the multiple innings he pitches.
Is a .240 BA Against as good for a reliever as it is for a starter?
I would say not!
Which is why I se the metric I do.
OK Donal just this once today…
It is NOT WHIP and it absoloutly DOES take into account errors made in the field becase it only counts hits and walks in the metric!
Errors are neither a hit or a walk!
So they are not conted against a pitcher in my metric!
“It is NOT WHIP and it absoloutly DOES take into account errors made in the field becase it only counts hits and walks in the metric!”
1) You make no mention of errors. At all. The way you described it, I got your formula to be BF/3(IP)
1) WHIP stands for Walks Hits per Inning Pitched. Even if you did account for errors, your number would simply be 3(WHIP).
Thats right Slappy I make no mentions of Errors!
SHould I hold the Pitcher responsible and hurt his numbers based on what someone else screwed up? NO Errors are not counted in my Metric and should NOT be!
If you think yes then explain why or shut your nonsensical trap!
WHIP is an innings pitched metric!
Mine is a batter faced metric!
How many above minimum!
Doesn’t care how many innings he pitched or how much per inning!
It is a metric to show how many EXTRA batters he faces due to his own bad pitching!
If he faces 1.5 batters above minimum then he is facing an extra batter per every two innings
If he has a 1.3 Batters above minimum he is facing an extra batter once every 3 Innings!
Much more telling that whip and SLG and BA now isn’t it?
Because a guy you only pitch one inning per game will go three games before he gives up an OB!
As opposed to the guy who will give up one in Two!
Relievers should be judged based on how much they hurt or help in any given game! The more games they can go without hurting the team the better!
This is what my Metric shows but because you only know what you can look up and my math was way over your lowly head you have no clue what My metric says because Jessup and Xtreeme nor BREFs glosary was there to explain it to you so you can copy and paste their footnote and act like you know what your talking about!
My metric is simple and elegant!
H + BB + HBP / (IP*3)
Get it? Got it? GOOD!
You made no mention of errors but said you count the batters faced. It wasn’t until that was put in your face you go on “of course I exclude errors”.
Either you forgot about errors and are back pedaling or you just did a lousy job expressing your idea. Both are pretty likely.
I’m not saying that errors should be held against the pitcher. That is why I have no idea why you think your method is better that WHIP. You are reinventing the wheel here.
You have this big crazy Rube Goldberg way of just getting back to WHIP.
Oh, and one detail I screwed up. Your formula is WHIP/3 not 3(WHIP)
Well maybe you should keep up with everyone else because they all knew what My metric was and what it contained!
You obviously don’t because you keep talking about Whip!
Can’t keep up with the smart folks stop trying!
Oh and I was wrong about one thing I said…
A Pitcher with a 1,5 will actually face a batter and a half more per inning where one who has a 1.3 will only face the same in two innings!
what if we took your formula, plugged in some real relief pitchers’ stats and multiplied that by 3? What do you think would happen? You think it would more or less equal their WHIP? Maybe be off by a hundredth?
And this is why there is no point in discussing math with you. You don’t even know what we are looking for, never mind how to find it.
I think you might make a WHIP which is useless in judging relievers because they don’t all pitch an entire inning every game!
which is why we count the thirds of an inning.
“A Pitcher with a 1,5 will actually face a batter and a half more per inning where one who has a 1.3 will only face the same in two innings!”
That is not how your average presents the data.
And that is another problem, it isn’t clear what you are counting. You took WHIP and made it less accessible for casual fans.
ROFLMAO!
It’s clear to everyone but you!
It’s not the metric that is confusing you it’s something else unrelated to the metric…Something Personal!
To everyone? The only person who chimed in on your madness was trs86 and he didn’t even directly address it.
Seriously, at best, it is a needlessly complicated version of WHIP. And that was only after I pointed out how you didn’t account for errors (don’t act like you didn’t get tripped up there).
“only person who chimed in on your madness ” I guess you missed the other thread where My metric was discussed!
As for tripping me up because I didn’t count errors well why don’t you tell everyone whjy I SHOULD have counted them so we can all get inside the thinking proccess of an idiot!
SO tell me why did my exclusion of errors make my Metric no good?
Don’t answer and it will accdepatance of yet another case Where Donal can talk but never back up a thing he says!
“As for tripping me up because I didn’t count errors well why don’t you tell everyone whjy I SHOULD have counted them”
Not what I said, Mister 303 IQ. They way you first presented your metric, you did not account for errors. You only said it was Batters Faced over Minimum Batters. No mention of excluding errors.
Then, you changed to be WHIP/3.
“so we can all get inside the thinking proccess of an idiot!”
You posting your diary?
YES I didn’t mention Errors because they were not part of the metric!
Your the buttwipe that brought them into the equation!
Cause you couldn’t fight the metric anyother way and thought I DID include Errors that I dit not!
They tripped YOU up not ME!
I also include HBP…Does WHIP? NO!
SO MY metric is not the same as Whip it’s BETTER!
Cause it tells me how many batters above minimum he will face be it 1 Out, Two Outs Three Outs or 6!
Whip only tells you what he will average if he pitches a whole inning!
And doesn’t account for Errors OR HBP!
NOT the same Metric!
Lets’ pretend, had the Beltran trade not been made, if you have any thought that he would have resigned here, you are crazier then anyone could have imagined.
Beltran was not returning, no matter what.
Assuming we “could” have 22 wins right now, well that statement just solidifies everything.
I think he was talking about Krod as according to his quote he thought we should have traded Beltran as we would get no compensation and could have re-signed him if the market went dry.
Yes trs I was…you get the star for reading comprehension! LOL
As for resigning beltran at 12 Mil per and 2 years it wouldn’t have been a bad deal at all!
Not saying we would have but could have if Money wasn’t the focus of this offseason!
I just don’t think 2/24 would have been wise regardless of contract but I don’t think Beltran would have taken it to remain with the Mets anyway.
TRS what is the current tax rate for the mets that they have to pay over what anyone else signs a player for?
I mean this is as lame an excuse as saying Reyes wouldn’t have signed with s for the same money he signed for elsewhere!
So what is the MET TAX you guys keep using to say they would require more to stay here ppray tell?
Considering he signed for more than that?
yes 13 Mil…Sorry I missed by one mil in my initial number but it hardly makes a difference to what I was referring to.
Even at 13 Mil Beltran is a pretty good signing!
So considering how the Mets handled the Beltran injuries and the fact that Beltran wanted to play for a current contender? I would say there would have had to be an over-payment of other offers to get him to stay. There had to be an over-payment to get him to come here to start with.
Bt no actual fact or basis of truth to say he wanted more from s than he took from elsewhere!
Again you SUPPOSE he wanted more bt thats not what he got!
Jst as everyone spposes we had to BEAT the marlins offer instead of just match what they gave Reyes!
Actually due to the new CBA Krod would not have cost a pick and neither did Bell. In fact Krod was still a type A and it did not matter. The Mets, like the Brewers, would have been foolish to offer him arbitration.
Hi Tr,
What it all comes down to is this.
If the decisions were not due to salary dumping with the high roster payroll not being the make or break issue, they were then based upon Sandy’s vision of what would be the best interests of the team both for the short and long term.
So must then ask ourselves what led him to those conclusions. Was it that Sandy (either thought or advised of) believing that in 2011 the Mets were simply not ready like R.A. alluded to?
For myself, if the Mets had kept themselves very close from the get go and began to stumble, falling back to 7-1/2 games past the mid season point, then it would indeed have been a sign they were playing over their heads, falling back to earth and the time thus ripe for being a seller and thinking of 2012 and beyond. I would not for a moment question Sandy for getting rid of KRod and Beltran for the best prospects he could – no matter how well they as individuals were performing.
But that was not the case. Instead of stumblng and getting further and further away from the pack, the Mets were doing the opposite. On April 20th, they were 5-13 after just 20 games, sporting the worst winning percentage in baseball and already six games behind in the wild card. 88 games later they had played as well as any of their wild card opponents, still only 6-1/2 games out (six in the loss column) with the return of David Wright in the forecast. Again, I do not know of any other team finding itself in the Mets position of climbing into, instead of falling out of, a playoff race being broken up for prospects. And if by some chance we again find ourselves competing in late July, could it not be said that the experience of the kids having already played in similar important games last August (even if they then began to falter) would not be an important factor in the manner in which they could handle the pressure during those last two months tjhis year?
The other possibilities are even if Sandy believed that 2011 could be a success, in the long run it would be a fluck and thus the best route was to break it up now and get some good prospects in return (ala Wheeler) Was 2011 sacrificed adhering to a belief of not carrying a high payroll? Or did it begin following the principles of money ball that one can win with much less expensive overhead? Or was it thought that one could not compete and build a farm system at the same time without one shortchanging the other in the long term due to multi-year commitments?
Thus saying his hands were tied financially gives Sandy a break for having obtained players on the cheap in 2011 whom, for most part, flopped – as did the team after the kids lost the veterans who were helping them surprise us all. But by saying his hands weren’t tied then raises the question of credibility, if not in himself, then with the people he brought in to advise him.
I
Sorry forgot to post the link.
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/09/mmo-fan-shot-its-not-winning-or-losing-it%e2%80%99s-how-you-play-the-game.html
Damn Metsie. You’ve been straight owned on this thread and yet you keep at it. I admire that. There is no “quit” in you no matter how stupid you look.
Are you kidding? Metsie has been owning these guys for months.
These guys grab at straws and half facts trying to get him and never do.
That’s a southerner for ya, everything they see or do is ass backwards.
And thats Fonzie talking out of his again!
One day you’ll win a debate, I mean even a broken clock gets it right twice a day. I’ll be pulling for ya. Frankly I’m tired of watching you get slaughtered in every single debate you get involved in. What are you like 0-19,498 by now? Something like that. I give you an A+ for effort. Even going so far as to make up your own stats among aother things. You got grit!
This coming from the guy who posted the evidence that gave me a victory over him on the who ran the A’s before 1992!
Yeah unfortunatly your clock has never been right even once!
If we miss the nplayoffs by one game will you also suggest again that we blow the team up like you wanted to do in 2008?
You mean the dozens of articles that showed Sandy making decision from 1983 to 1997? Or the one article that I showed how Sandy kept his mouth shut from 1981 to 1983 while he was learning the ins and outs? Where’s your article showing Sandy wasn’t making decisions until 1992? Don’t have on do you? No you don’t because there isn’t one is there? Nope! And let me ask you slappy how did the team do 2009, 2010 and 2011? Didn’t finish over 500once in those 3 years after did they? My way was better which is being proved right now cause they’re winning arent they? Sandy didn’t make the team worse did he? They’re playing better aren’t they? Yep. Still haven’t got a clue do you? Head still buried 8 feet up your ass ain’t it?
Have fun blowing this up to another 300 comment thread cause that’s just what you do isn’t it?
To keep the facts accurate, in an interview last year with Bleacher Report, Sandy states he only began learning how to make personnel decisions in 1983 when he was appointed the Oakland general manager and not during the two years before when he served as the legal counsel for the club.
“When I got involved in baseball, back in 1981, as I said earlier, I didn’t really have any experience. Two years after I joined the Oakland A’s, I became the general manager. I was looking around for a way to make personnel decisions, I wasn’t a scout, hadn’t been a scout, had not been in baseball very long, didn’t have that kind of experience.”
It was in 1983 that he came across statistical analysis and began his learning process.
“But at about that time, there were several people including a guy named Bill James, another named Eric Walker, who were writing about baseball and writing about a new statistical approach to player evaluation. which really emphasized things like on-base percentage more than batting average or other things and related that individual performance to team success.
“It struck me as sort of sound theory, so we began to use it to some extent as early as 1983-84. We used it in a variety of ways in looking at players we acquired. We kept it quite for a long time, in part because it was new and because I was so new, people would look at me and say who is this kid and how could this possibly work, so we didn’t want to get into that type of public discussion.”
I’m making no comment regarding who did what, who was right, who was wrong, etc. Only that Sandy’s learning about player personnel decisions began in 1983 and not before and that this admittedly was , in essence, on the job training.
Not a single one said Sandy did anything before n1992!
NOT A ONE!
I think what will solve everything is a live video debate streaming on MetsMerized in a studio kind of like Face Off with Moose and McEnaney or Sportnsite.
Real time live debates will settle in 5 minutes what takes 200 comments here because all the word play, double meanings, etc – all of that garbage that wastes everybody’s time won’t fly in real life
Has that ever happened? At all?
Are you familiar with the type of program that ESPN has been rolling out? Why Skip Bayliss is all over the place?
All it would do is give the loud screamers who have no facts a huge advantage by letting them just shout down the other people.
it sure would take away the ability to throw runners and change of directions into the equation when someone gets caught on points!
Hi Metsi,
Sorry I only got around to reading your fan shot from last season this morning.
To say last year’s team might have been better, baring the injuries and the trades of KRod and Beltran, than the 07 and 08 Mets is something I hadn’t thought of, though if I was professing it had already proved itself over that stretch of 88 games that 2011 could have been a real success had the front office not been concerned in salary dumping or, as many have suggested, building for the future instead.
Teams not going anywhere should indeed rid itself of veterans when they can get some one of value in return. But that was not the case of us until the trades and injuries did us in. These kids were going somewhere last year and I think will again this year. Playoff? Really doesn’t matter as long as the rebuilding curve continues upward but I don’t believe our future rested on sacrificing 2011 and all the good it was producing for one prospect, even with the potential of Zach Wheeler. We would not have been able to keep even with the Braves, Cardinals, Giants as we did for more than half the season if our blend of young kids and veterans weren’t showing they were already capable of doing something special.
For 2012, Beltran would have left the club anyway but his bat would have been replaced by that of the disabled Ike Davis.
Our acheilles heel is still not having anyone close to replacing KRod. Rodriguez gave us kiniptions whenever on the mound but he usually got the job done and is still way better than any of the replacements we got. For those who cite his high ERA with the Brewers this year, let’s look a bit deeper into it. This year he gave up eight runs in a total 3-1/3 innings (four performances). That means in the other 12.1 innings pitched he has given up a total of one (in 11 performances). Eight of his 14 hits allowed also came in those four bad performances, which means, in eleven other games, he gave up six hits in 12.1 innings. He’s only had one bad performance in his last eight outings and in the last four outings has lowered his ERA by 1.3 runs. He’s only had one or two appearances in which he came in with inherited runners and got them out.
With those new acquisitions leading up to Krod, the moves made this winter would look better – it’s just that none of the trio qualifies as a closer. Unfortunately, the financial situation was so bad that the uniqueness of that $17 million bonus that Omar should never had agreed to was too much for the Mets to handle. If we find out reports of the financial problems of the Wilpons were greatly exaggerated, then one has to indeed question the wisdom of sending a closer who is only turning 30.
Good read, Metsi (or do you like being called Mike?).
Well Joey what some here seem to sidestep with my assesment is that I don’t expect the team to compete for the playoffs every year before I am happy with what they did.
Sure a playoff is nice but to say they didn’t make the playoffs they are worthless is unfair. I only ask for improvement and not just from the players but from the GM that acquires them!
Last year if we had gone out and got a real deal starter Ace to #2 type, Last year is a very different history. Not only does it improve the team record last year and probably wins more than the 7 games we dropped from the previous year, but a guy like that would be signed and help this year and next as well!
We wouldn’t have an issue with Pelfrey being down right now. We wouldn’t have lost as many games as we did with Pelfrey as our only ACE last year and may not have missed Sanatana as much as we did!
All I ask of the team is to win more games than they did the year previous!
It takes a long time to get the right combination of talent to get to and win a playoff!
No one says otherwise!You can’t do it just with kids and you have a hard time doing it with just vets as well!
But a combination of both is the key!
We had the kids despite many claiming we didn’t (despite their attempts at running away from their previous statements they are all posted here for posterity)
So what we lacked was the Veteran Leadership most notably in the starting rotation last year and solving that last year changes the record significantly and helps us this year as well!
But the people who have claimed thier plan is the LONG TERM plan have done nothing but make short term fixes in the name frugality!
We have signed 55 Players since Sandy got here and 29 of them are no longer here!
And the truth is that money and roster spot is just as much wasted as losing a year to Santana or Beltran because they got hurt but played All Star baseball when they were on the field!
People seem overly worried about how much Money Wilpon spends!
When they should worry more about what we DO spend being wasted, useless and cut fodder because it is not helping this team get better!
Hi Metsi/Mike,
What we saw last year and again with this season is that many of the kids counted on for the future were already making their marks in the present. We know there is a camp on the opposite side of the fence which does not discount the achievements already made by Gee, Duda, Davis, Murphy and others but believes they were not as ready as we felt they were.
The problem with that argument, as we both believe, is that if a team is not going to make it all the way to the playoffs it doesn’t mean letting go of the veterans who are helping nurture that team along for prospects, no matter what the potential. What a modestly successful August and September could have done for this team in developing poise and maturity we might see missing later this season as, as pointed out by Bobby Ojeda, it has yet to have been really tested. Believing they were in the wild card race, even if nobody else did, would have given them the experience that Bobby says they have had yet to deal with. You, I and others believe the team as it is now and with what it has down on the farm, would not suffered a long-term setback had they stayed the course last season and did not have Wheeler.
And let us imagine, for a second, that we didn’t have Wheeler in our organization. Would we see this organization in a different light as we do now – player wise? Would we suddenly believe our future more dim? Would we feel we need a savior? I doubt it. Yet, if we had momentum built up from last year, the kids who MIGHT find themselves in a hunt for the wild card late this season might not have been so green behind the ears.
The entire debate might, as I suspect, go beyond the question of Beltran and KRod for essentially was a Zach Wheeler but the bigger divide over that of Sandy Alderson’s philosophy – perhaps supported by some on its own merits or partially out of frustration of Omar going for the quick fix each season (but don’t forget, I pointed out how Omar was doing both, building a club to win now (which others with his open check book could very well have done a better job than him) and one for five or six years later after all those veterans were long retired.
In reading so many interviews with Sandy, he comes across having a tremendous analytical mind and very astute in terms of looking ahead for the long term implications. But in all those interviews he talks more in terms of business and money wasted on players then what it takes seeing in players what it takes to put together a team. Again, my respect to all those who feel Sandy has developed the professional skills to become the one who can call the shots and recognize player potential and how a team can mesh together as a unit, but for myself, beyond the type of generalities that we all have exchanged with each other here on MMO, there has been little in his interviews to show that his deep thinking analytical mind applies to complex understanding of player personnel. With personnel moves, I think he heavily leaves that up to the people under him and agree with his outlook of spending and computer analysis that he professes taught him about professional baseball (as per his quotes that I posted).
Again, won’t go into the issue of computer analysis or money ball but the issue again is that no other front office with it’s young team coming on strongly ever broke it up. If the Mets were starting to fade after a quick start – instead of coming on after a horrendous start – it would be a different story.
If what Sandy did last season was done by others – under the circumstances we have both outlined, I would ask for a link to see for I still profess no front office ever sent it’s top two players off in such a situation unless it was desperate for money – which, as I pointed out – was twice the case with Hall of Fame manager and owner Connie Mack and something Charlie Finley tried to do with selling his players for cash, being aware they were going to jump ship as soon as free agency began. That has also been the case for more than a half decade with Billy Beane once his good young talent approached arbitration.
Tim McCarver just said the team will not re-sign David Wright if the financial situation continues, just like they didn’t Reyes. Is that what we have to look forward to? And then, what about Davis, Murphy and others who will be eligible for arbitration and/or free agency in a handful of years?
That’s why I contend the moves last season had more to do with business and little to do with re-building. We just don’t know what Sandy might have allowed the organization to do had the money been there. Most likely, the Wilpons might have told him to see if he get additional help as long as the asking price wasn’t ridiculous.
The Central point to all of this, all the arguments, all the PHILOSOPHY so to speak revolves around one KEY issue!
Even the situation of K-Rod, Beltran and giving up last year revolve around it!
Everyone was in full agreement that the best way to build a team is with a solid core of young kids with Veterans to lead and fill in the gaps the Kids and MiLs did not have time to develop a solution for either as a long term impact signing or a shorter term hold the line till some kid in the system WAS ready to take over!
Not a single poster here would argue with that philosophy as being sound and credible!
ALL the arguments, All the moves with Beltran, Reyes, K-Rod, All the philisophical differences revolve around the question:
DO we HAVE the Young Core needed to build around or do we have to have a sell off players to get it!
One side believed we had nothing to build with or could even Qualify as a CORE! These are the guys who puke on anything Omar did!
The other side (me included) pointed out how we had:
Davis
Duda
Tejada
Murphy
Niese
Kirk
With:
Harvey
Familia
Mejia
Valdespin
Flores
Havens
All within a year or two of being added to that core.
But the doubters didn’t believe in any of them!
So we must sell Beltran to get something
We must Sell K-Rod to get something
We MUST have payroll to spend because we had NO ONE to fill ALL the Holes they said we had!
We MUST let Reyes go so we can spend the money in a more WISE fashion and get 6+ blown saves in a month!
They Point to Wheeler as so desperatly needed. Maybe he is but we don’t know if he’s even needed at all at this point!
They point to Nimmo who is no better a prospect at this point than anyone drafted where he was and may still be a bust because he has yet to even enter the Minors on a team, still in instructional league unless something happened recently I missed!
As you correctly pointed out, Not having either Wheeler or Nimmo would not kill our chances for a playoff in the future and it sure doesn’t guarantee one if the doubter/sellers are right about the rest of the potential core we have!
SO even if thier initial assessmet regarding the kids we have is true we have not solved that even a milimeter with the acquisition of Wheeler and Nimmo, Not even if they are both HOFers will it change a thing!
Now the battle lines are drawn and people are stuck defending thier previous positions!
I feel quite vindicated about what I have said in the past about what we have!
I know the doubter/sellers are feeling the pinch right now because of how good this team that was “Not going to WIN anytime soon” is currently winning games this SOON!
Because of thier initial position they also went out on a limb for Sandy because they think he felt the way they did about our Minors. No proof that he did mind you but it doesn’t matter Sandy was doing what they wanted and that makes what he did a GOOD job!
He wasn’t going to waste money on big name performers he was going to spend it on low risk cheap signings.
Those signings who have blown most of the games we could have won but didn’t and would have put us on top in the NL East right now!
But Sandy had a good day the day he got them, Sandy was much smarter than Omar did sending All Stars away instead of bringing them in.
They even started to gloat about how well the team was doing as proof of Sandy’s effectiveness hoping we wouldn’t notice who was contributing to that great start!
All the guys they claimed we did not have and should not try to build around while all the folks Sandy brought in and they claimed was in the name of winning games THIS year have cost us more games than they had anything to do with helping win!
I don’t really care that they traded Beltran for Wheeler on it’s own.
I don’t really care they traded K-Rod for crap on it’s own.
And I don’t even care they let reyes go for two 2nd round picks on it’s own!
ALONE those moves can be justified!
As a group and coupled with the moves of what has come IN weighted against what has gone OUT is the scale that makes Sandy look like crap and what makes the moves IN GENERAL a monumental error in judgement!
Three All Stars gone, 1 frontline (MAYBE) pitcher in return plus the cash we needed to blow 6 saves from one signing and I can’t even remember how many others from the other guys we needed to purge Reyes in order to have money to sign!
You put the whole comprehensive package of outgoing and incomming on a good/bad scale since Sandy has been GM and the scales tip completely to the side of BAD!
He has run out of All Stars to get rid of, He only has two left unless you want to count Bay’s one All star appearance.
Wright and Santana are the only two he can get something for!
I wonder if the folks who were originally wrong about their CORE assesment still believe what they thought then and want to trade Wright and Santana for kids or will they man up and admit they were dead wrong about it all and say NO we NEED them soince the team is winning baseball games when One of Sandy’s acquisitions isn’t blowing them!
Hi Metsi,
I think the two points we each raised are the ones to be addressed:
1) Are the kids we have now and down on the farm really not so good so we do need to have gotten a Wheeler or are they? If they are, there was no reason to sacrifice 2011. If they aren’t, then last year was not going to last and this season they will come down to earth and finish below .500 once again. If it’s the middle of the two, then at least admitting validity of our position, while disagreeing with it, would have stopped the argument long before this. So it has to be one or the other.
2) You brought out another good point about Beltran, KRod and other moves. “ALONE those moves can be justified! As a group and coupled with the moves of what has come IN weighted against what has gone OUT is the scale”. Considering the talent we have on hand already, plus those down on the farm, the moves don’t make sense. Again, for those who think the talent we have now and down on the farm is quite limited, trading Beltran and KRod and filling roster spots inexpensively on veterans that won’t cause us to be committed to them when the talent is ready does makes sense.
This is a general manager who doesn’t believe this team has the talent now and with just a little more help can really do things in 2012 (as we both believed in 2011). He gave the team a two week ultimatium to convince him not to trade Beltran (after already unloading KRod)? Two weeks – not what they were doing since that 4-13 start? Not taking into account that even the best teams always have a bad stretch over a two week span? Was that the cut and dry decision based upon computer projections? Whatever the methodology, to me that is not the thinking of a baseball man. It is that of a business man looking at the ledger book from all the angles.
Metsi, I can’t agree with you that more fans showning up for a wildcard race would offset the savings of those contracts because the Wilpons projected they would need an average attendance of 39,000 to break even financially and that was with the payroll they had back in 2009 and with 2009 ticket prices. The ticket prices themselves being cut back in 2011 could have meant even the increased attendance would not have caused revenue to exceed expenses.
And that, is where I think, Sandy and money ball comes into play. The Wilpons will never be able to generate the revenue they counted on with the ticket prices reduced the way they are with a ballpark seating just 42,000 fans. Hence, for the time being, expenses have to be cut, which means the roster as well. That’s, of course, if we believe the losses as stated by the organization – and not include television rights and revenue generated by being the majority owners of SNY. And if that is not the case, then the Wilpons put themselves into a corner by building a smaller capacity ballpark and expecting fans to spend a small fortune in order to come.
Notice how many empty seats we’re seeing at Yankee Stadium? That means more fans are less willing to spend so much anymore…
Hey Guys,
Even though I think two more years with a slower Carlos in center would have been better than two years with Torres, even I conceed Carlos was going to run out of here the first chance he could get – even if Sandy offered him an Omar-type mutli year deal.
The question isn’t really not taking three less talented prospects over one extremely promising one, it’s taking one extremely promising prospect over the success of one entire season. That’s the disagreement we have and always will. As I said, let’s get Fred tipsy once again and then ask him the question of what he would have done had the financial mess not been there.
Who knows, he might spill out an answer none of us would have expected to hear!
Man, you guys sure know how to beat a dead horse!