24
2012
Mets Will Not Demote Ike Davis Despite .159 Batting Average
An article by 
As Chumbawamba once sang, "Ike gets knocked down, will he get up again?"
Terry Collins has told reporters that Ike Davis will not be demoted to the minors.
Instead, Davis will lose significant playing time, but will be permitted to work out his problems at the Major League level. Collins said that he will start Davis based on favorable matchups.
Davis is batting .159 with a .213 on-base percentage, five home runs and 15 RBI this season, and has two hits in his last 36 at-bats.
Updated by RJ
Original Post 5/23
It’s no secret that Ike Davis’ hold on the everyday first baseman’s job is in serious jeopardy. In 141 at-bats this season, Davis is the owner of a .156 batting average and .212 on-base percentage. That’s nowhere near the production expected of a starting first baseman. In fact, it’s more in line with R.A. Dickey’s career numbers at the plate. (Dickey has a .189 batting average and .219 on-base percentage over 132 lifetime at-bats.)
But if the Mets are going to make a decision on whether or not to demote Davis to the minor leagues, they should do it before the team returns to Citi Field on Thursday. A quick look at the home/road splits will explain the urgency behind this decision.
While wearing his road grays in 2012, Ike Davis has batted .228 (18-for-79) with a .274 on-base percentage. Although those numbers aren’t great, they’re not worthy of a demotion. In fact, despite Davis’ season-long slump, his slugging percentage on the road (.456) is very similar to the .460 career mark he posted through 2011. (All of his team-leading five home runs in 2012 have come on the road.) But his home numbers tell another story.
In 20 games at Citi Field this year (17 starts), Davis is batting .065. That’s ZERO-six-five. Davis has collected four hits in 62 at-bats at home. By comparison, Ruben Tejada also collected four hits at Citi Field … on April 8 alone!
In addition to his poor batting average, Davis also has a .134 on-base percentage and a .081 slugging percentage at Citi Field. In Davis’ defense, his .065/.134/.081 line is quite similar to that of another long-time Met. Of course, that long-time Met was Al Leiter. (In 394 at-bats with the Mets, Leiter fashioned a .084/.145/.107 line.)
So why should the Mets make their decision on whether or not to banish Ike Davis to the minor leagues before Thursday? Because Thursday marks the beginning of a season-long 11-game homestand. Also, starting on Thursday, the Mets will play 20 of their next 29 games at Citi Field. That’s the same number of games that Ike Davis has already participated in at Citi Field this year to register his anemic batting line.
To demote or not to demote? That is the question surrounding Ike Davis. He has one game left at PNC Park to turn things around. If he doesn’t, the Pittsburgh-to-Buffalo shuttle might be his next mode of transportation after today’s game.
About the Author: Ed Leyro
Ed Leyro was hatched in the Bronx, but spent most of his youth in Queens at Shea Stadium. Apparently, all that time spent at Mets games paid off as Ed met his wife (The Coop) for the first time at Citi Field during its inaugural season. Guess the 2009 season was good for something after all. In addition to his work at Mets Merized Online, Ed also owns, operates and is head janitor at Studious Metsimus, where he shares blogging duties with Joey Beartran. For those not in the know, Joey is a teddy bear dressed in a Mets hoodie. Clearly, Studious Metsimus is not your typical Mets blog.
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Ike has been given every chance. He is hurting the team. He can get it togeather in Buffalo.
Unless he goes 5 for 5 tonight, including driving in 6 and hitting for the cycle, he should have a bag packed for Buff tonight.
I see no evidence that Ike is coming out of this. I believe it’s no longer a question of if, but when.
Saw an interesting quote from Ike on Rubin’s morning briefing:
Ike Davis, who met with Collins before the series opener, described that chat to Puma in the Post as “the same (expletive) as I’ve been talking about for days.”
not like he doesn’t know that he has been terrible too.
Sounds like a kid who is still stubbornly not listening or not wanting to listen.
Pack a bag Ike.Still a fan, but u are kiliing the team.
Is Davis known as a testy guy?
you do see reports that he has the reputation as being stubborn, and a bit of an attitude (if that is the right word). whining, complaining to umps, not wanting to listen to advice, etc.
if nothing else, being this bad is going to make any player sensitive to questions!
Haven’t you been watching the games of Ike arguing with umps and throwing his bat in frustration after a punchout to the point that guys like Wright have to calm him down?
UNFORTUNATELY, I BELIEVETHERE ARE LINGERING DOUBTS ABOUT WHETHER VALLEY FEVER HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIS STRUGGLES. IF SO, A DEMOTION WON’T SOLVE A DAMNED THING.
ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN WE SHOULD CONSIDER THAT IKE STILL HAS NOT PASSED THE ACCOMPLISHMENT TEST @ THE AAA LEVEL HAVING BEEN AN EMERGENCY AA CALLUP THEN LOSING AN ENTIRE YR THAT RIGHTFULLY WOULD’VE BEEN THAT AAA SEASON SO DEMOTING HIM BASICLY CAN BE VIEWED AS AN ATTEMPT TO FILL IN SOME DEVELOPMENTAL GAPS WHICH MAY INCLUDE STREAMLINING HIS SWING TO THE BALL MORE CONSISTANTLY WHILE INCORPORATING IMPROVEMENTS IN HIS PITCH RECOGNITION SKILLS.ALL EDUCATIONAL STEPS HE SHOULD HAVE EXPERIENCED PRIOR TO GETTING A PERMANANT BERTH ON THE 25
Hi ’62,
I agree that we could have jumped the gun on assuming Ike Davis was completely ready for the majors. Though he had a fine rookie season followed by a short but productive 2011, we don’t know if he still lacked the development skills to show that his rookie performance wasn’t due to to opposing pitchers not yet haven’t learned his weak points.
As far as the home/road scenario being cause for making a decision, I think this has little to do with when Ike should be sent down. The strategy should be either to continue letting him work out his problems with the major league team or do it down in the minors – not letting him play everyday is not the answer.
And I do think the Valley Fever has had, if nothing else, a lingering after-effect on his staminia. Besides his swinging at bad pitches, there is no “pop” in the good pitches that he is making contact with.
One thing I was not aware of was is the rumored attitude problem and I hope it is nothing more than a personal shortcoming than a real problem (ala Miledge). But this, combined with him actually not being ready for the majors and the valley fever – that is a hard triple play to avoid hitting into.
Joey – I still do not get this whole Valley Fever thing I’m sorry. I’m not sure why we as fans think we can diagnose Valley Fever as contributing to a .150 batting average.
The Mets acknowledged he had or could have Valley Fever. Therefore, if he was showing symptoms which would be flu like, they’d take care of it. You’ve heard of Mets players being sat for the flu recently right? Have you heard Ike being sat for the flu?
Why are we using Valley Fever as an excuse if he’s not showing enough symptoms to sit him? We’re automatically assuming the Mets doctors cannot diagnose something but you or I can?
I just don’t buy it. Valley Fever doesn’t create a flaw in your swing. It doesn’t force you swing at terrible pitches and look defeated at the plate.
Does Ike look flu like to you? I’m being serious now… if a guy is being run out there for 2 months with flu like symptoms… don’t you think we’d notice? He’s lose enough weight and be coughing and looking feverish.
Have you seen any of that? If not, then we need to start pointing at Ike as the problem and not some disease that the Mets and Ike are clearly not worried about right now.
I don’t know anything about Valley Fever but….I do know Ike was one of the guys who got at least one day of b/c of that flu/cold going around the clubhouse about a week ago.
I too have a hard time thinking this VF is the reason for Ike’s struggles.
To date, sounds to me like no one knows, including the Mets. There’s been much speculation, hole in his swing, hitch in his swing, no pitch recognition, stubbornness regarding listening to advice, etc.
I have to believe if Ike himself had a clue, he’d be working on fixing it and his stats wouldn’t look as awful as they do right now.
I still do not get why we’re acting like its a sure thing that Ike is a .300 type hitter. The evidence suggests he is going to be a .250 20 HR guy. We just don’t wanna hear that because it ruins our hopes and dreams.
He needs to go to Buffalo and get treated like a young player who had 2.5 hot months in a big league uniform. He is hurting the team and I expect he’ll be headed to Buffalo after this series
Yeah well he isn’t a .120 hitter either…
His timing is off and thats what happens when you miss a year of facing MLB pitchers, nothing more.
It is only exacerbated by the fact that the guy hitting behind him also struggled the first month as well.
There was no reason to throw Ike anything but breaking balls hoping he would get himself out because even if you managed to miss and walk him there was very little risk Duda was going to do anything with that OB when he came up next.
If they had moved Ike in front of Wright he might have seen a few more Fastballs because you don’t want Wright coming up with guys on base as hot as he was, IN fact Ike I think has helped Wright’s BA out by7 getting Wright more walks than he used to get because why take chances with Wright when your behind in the count knowing full well you had two struggling Lefties back to back to get you out of an inning or hit into a weak DP.
Ike is a better hitter than this and no one has ever suggested he was going to be a .300 hitter ever!
But he is not a Medoza guy by any means it’s just that he missed too much time and when you mkiss time you lose timing.
Only issue now is it may start working on his confidence and then a trip to the MiLs will help, but facing MiL pitching is going to do very little to prepare him for the timing issues he is having in the MLB.
I have trouble buying the valley fever excuse. Largely because back in ST, all the reports were that they only found it on a routine test, and that he actually had no symptoms. and “treatment” consisted of monitoring him to make sure no symptoms popped up, and to try and not have him over exert himself.
did anyone actually ever _confirm_ Valley Fever? Originally it was just the assumption. He’s also had no symptoms.
Even if Ike had Valley Fever, he had a 66% chance of not showing any symptoms and living his life like nothing happened…if Ike did suffer from the synptoms
plus, if Ike did have Valley Fever, it only lasts for a month at most…even though Ike finished the spring with a couple of HRs, he pretty much sucked in ST too…so that’s almost 3 months that Ike hasn’t been hitting… doesn’t sound like Valley Fever to me.
I thought I read it could last up to 2 years?
I’m not going to pretend to be a Doctor but… when an athlete with an unlimited medical budget gets Valley Fever… I would bet almost anything that it won’t last 2 years.
The key to it lasting longer is showing symptoms. Does Ike look like a guy who is playing with the flu for 2 months? Is he coughing on the field? Is he losing weight?
He sat with flu like symptoms just like the others did and then he was put back out there, which means the symptoms were gone. This isn’t like some mysterious disease that Mets doctors have no idea what is going on.
We as fans just use it because we are desperately trying to find ways to say something is wrong with Ike BESIDES just his overall talent.
If Ike Davis was suffering from Valley Fever, the Mets doctors would notice, Terry Collins would notice, his teammates would notice and most importantly, Ike would notice.
Hi Jessep,
No doctor either, but according to that Mayo Clinic report, there doesn’t have to be a multitude of symptoms to show one has valley fever. So even though one might not be showing signs of a flu, be losing weight, etc., one could be showing signs of the fever just due to fatigue.
But this is a disucssion better left to the Medical Center, Ben Casey, Dr. Kildare or Marcus Welby, M.D.
I’m sure it can for most people who contract it based on the fact they live in the area you get it and never leave!
It really is moot though as it has nothing to do with his swing at best it might lead to fatigue on the field (affecting the glove) or running the bases but swinging a bat is not really all that much of an aerobic drain!
Which is about the only affect a respiratory disease can have.
If you’re older and/or have a weak immune system and/or lung problems and if it goes un-diagnosed/unchecked and you have a bad reaction and get an very bad infection, then there is a chance that is could linger for an extended period of time.
I would be that non of those scenarios if Ike…If Ike really had any problems with VF, then the Mets would have DL’ed right away. One positive thing about the Mets current situation is that the don’t screw around with injuries like they did during Omar’s tenure.
Remember, the Mets want an excuse for Ike’s problems too…
You really gotta give this “Valley Fever” BS a rest…I know that everyone wants to find a reason for the guy we all assumed was going to hit .300 with +30RBI while winning a gold glove and using a bizarre sounding (at least to us in the NE) infection as the excuse is not correct.
We have to accept the fact that maybe Ike isn’t as good as we hopped…
Ike has a big loopy swing with a huge hitch…his timing is way off…and he can’t hit a curve ball. He’s always behind in the count and waving at pitches and he gets lucky if he makes solid contact.
He has no power because his mechanics are screwed up…most of the time, he’s stepping in the bucket…his bat is not in sync with his body…he is swing with just his arms and not getting any power from his legs and core…and because his timing is off, he’s just waving his bat out there and not getting an snap in his wrists… which is how you really get power behind you swing.
Remedial life comming at you Ike. Make the most of it. Listen to Hairston. Learn from Dickey.
This will be Statin’s last chance. He is 27 now.
From another Mets ’62 fan —
Exactly right. Exactly. Buffalo will be an acid test — if he’s a head case, we’ll find out in 3 weeks.
If or when he gets back, have him room with Nieuwenhuis or Baxter!
I hope they send him down and that he can somehow figure out whatever is causing him to slump so badly. I had such high hopes for him this season.
Damn… We have our own version of justin smoak… Highly touted first baseman, first round pick.. Can’t hit for sh**… Damn.. I like ike and i sure as hell think he’ll come out, but man.. he’s looking lost and clueless at the plate…
As much as it’s no longer ‘early’ the sample of ‘home games’ is a lot smaller and is basically luck.
You could make the same argument that he’s due for a hit at home.
Well lets take the Valley Fever excuse right out of it…
Problems in the lungs do not make you lunge at the ball. His issues are all timing, even Hudgens confirmed this yesterday when he said he looked at a ton of film and the issue is not mechanical it’s that he is lunging which suggests it’s all about the timing.
And Timing is lost due to not playing for long periods of time.
It also isn’t something an MiL stint is going to fix.
So I don’t really see that as a solution to Ike’s problems all it might help is the team’s problems of having a poor hitter in the middle of the lineup.
Sadly they have for some reason never decided to move him out of that important position in the lineup. Perhaps putting him in front of the pitcher for awhile might help but there is pressure to perform at this point in the season especially at home in front of the few folks who are coming out to pay the bills.
In the end I think they will likely send Ike down, when I don’t think it really matters because like I said I don’t think an MiL stint really helps him all that much. Even if he starts hitting the lesser pitching down there the timing will still not be up to the same speed of MLB pitching whenever he returns and he will likely struggle again.
Once he goes to the MiLs it is more likely he will bounce back and forth between them unless he gets that timing back for good and starts off hot whenever he comes back up.
Ike wasn’t a problem to carry when Thole and Tejada were up hit hitting for good average. Thier loss only magnifies it because their replacements are also hitting poorly.
I would not complain if they gave him until the end of June to show he belongs. After that if he doesn’t have his timing down by then he may never get it back and that would be the end of Davis as a potential building block for the future core.
Timing can also be mechanical so I think there is merit to the thought that sending him down COULD help. It’s not a sure fire thing. However, at some point as they were saying last night you have to do it just to get him out of the situation and have a chance to start over again with out the pressure.
I am still curious if hitting him 2nd in front of Wright or Murphy would help any?
Timing can only be affected by Mechanics if your LATE to the ball not Early!
Ike is Early and lunging, that has nothing to do with his mechanics and everything to do with when he is starting his swing!
If you are doing too much (Which Des seems to think) would doing MORE than your supposed to make you swing too early?
Could doing 8 things instead of just 4 REALLY make you too early to the ball?
No it’s not his mechanics affecting his timing it is his timing affecting his mechanics, he is starting his swing too early, trying to adjust his mechanics to compensate and that is why his swing looks bad not because of the mechanics but the compensation due to starting his swing too early!
In fact counter to common opinion making him do MORE in his Mechanics might actually help him stay back more!
Which is why I suggested maybe trying to quiet Ike’s swing this spring was one of the causes for his timing issues. They should not have tried to tweak him until after he got back his MLB timing after that long layoff.
That is what I have been saying for awhile. I have seen it done before.
BTW I do agree that hitting Ike in front of Wright would help him see some more strikes.
But it may be too late for that to help him now better would have been about 2-3 weeks ago when he showed some signs of coming out of it only to fall back injto the abyss.
They would be less likely to throw as many breaking balls at him for fear of putting him on ahead of Wright’s hot bat….
I think he would be above .200 right now if not for the fact that he had a struggling Duda behind him giving him no protection.
Even if you walk Ike throwing crap at him there was little risk Duda would do something to make you pay for that OB.
Hi Metsi,
If the problem is part that Ike is being pitched around then he has a lot of maturing as a hitter to do by learning patience to lay off those pitches and/or develop a better batting eye – and to take the walk.
NO Joey your misunderstanding….
It’s not that they are pitching around Ike at all. They are not throwing pitches that are high percentage strikes. Fastballs most notably.
They are instead giving him a healthy diet of breaking balls which have a lower percentage of being strikes even in counts where a Fastball would normally be thrown to get a strike.
Ike could be up 2-0 or 3-0 but he will not get that fastball!
They will throw more crap at him and hope he gets himself out and if they walk him there is no big worry because Duda hasn’t been all that great for most of it either.
Duda has been MUCH MUCH better lately and I think at some poinjt that might translate to Ike but how long I can’t say.
What is making Ike’s problems more difficult is the fact that even in a hitters count when you can usually expect a fastball he is not getting that fastball. And that is SOME of the pitches he is too early on!
So it’s not like they are pitching around him they are merely throwing stuff that is harder to hit and harder to get called strikes on even in a hitters count because even if you do manage to walk Ike there isn’t much behind him to make you pay for that!
Hi Metsi,
Used the wrong termonology to explain my thoughts. Didn’t mean they were pitching around him but that they were indeed not throwing those high percentage for strike pitches as you correctly called them. That’s what I meant about learning to be more patient and developing a better batting eye. It also seems he has to learn how to think more like a hitter as far as what to expect under those circumstances.
But I’m glad that Ike just hit a ball hard and deep even though was caught on the run by the Pirates. That, plus his single earlier might be signs that he has taken his first step coming out of that season long slump. He just might have put-off that ticket down to the farm for another day or so.
of course going to the minors can help with his timing. He needs to make whatever adjustments needed, and get dialed in. So of course you can do it at AAA. They still have guys taht throw hard, and that trhow breaking balls. Not going to see Halladay down there, but Ike can’t hit guys that would be lucky to make a AAA roster.
You make it sound like people are advocating he just take a week of BP or something.
and if there need to be mechanical changes too (shortening the swing, quieting the hands, removing the hitch, whatever) then 100% you should be doing it down there.
Well your just plain out believing something that isn’t true if you think the MiLs can get a player’s timing vs MLB pitching back…
Tell me what is the biggest hurdle a young player coming up from the Minors has when he gets up here?
Is it his fielding? No! because playing the field is pretty much the same in the Minors as it is in the majors.
The one thing that causes kids problems when they getb up is getting used to the timing and level of MLB pitching!
More Rookies have failed because of the bat not the glove when promoted…
If the pitching is as similar as you think it is then why is that the case?
If what you say is true why does the average rookie’s BA drop close to .020 points when he gets here?
Why do kids that are hitting well in the Minors not get immediatly promoted to the majors?
Because the one thing that seprates the Majors from the Minors is the level of pitching you face!
Sending Ike down (or up in our case) to Buffalo is not going to help him get his timing against MLB pitching back, It might help him get some confidence by getting hits but once he comes back he will be faced with the same timing issues he has now!
If you think sending him down is the right thing to do then your not really doing it because you think it is going to fix Ike just take him out of the picture to help the MLB lineup.
Anthopoulos added Lind’s stint in Vegas could be a short one.
“That all depends on Adam and how well he plays down there and if he can get his timing back,” said Anthopoulos. “It’ll be up to Adam. If he’s performing the way that he can, then he’ll certainly find his way back up here.”
Note he hasn’t gotten his timing ack yet has he?
Also note that until heb gets to the MLB and still has his timing this really says nothing doesn’t it?
Lol OK Metsie. Did you know auto correct on my phone corrects your name to Nerdier? I laugh ever time I try to type it.
Just shut off Spell Check, Your a damn teacher for crying out loud have some self respect! LOL
History teacher, we notoriously can’t spell.
Trs,
BA in History which means I’m even a worse speller than you!
Actually I just read something in the paper today about how more people can’t spell because of an overuse of spellcheck and a whole generation of youth doesn’t even bother to spell anything at all they merely spell out the consonants until the word suggestion pops up and then they pick the word they want.
LOL
I can spell I just can’t type but it’s usually because Its also bad because I have a cigarette in my hand 90% of the time when I’m doing it!
I don’t think it really matters that it is home or away.
Those road numbers are streaky as well. 6 of his hits came in 5 games April 14-18 and 7 came in 4 games April 28-May1st. So 13 of those hits came in 9 games.
Metsie — “…the issue is not mechanical it’s that he is lunging which suggests it’s all about the timing.” I don’t think so.
This is similar to what Carlos Delgado occasionally went through, but to me it seems more flawed. When Ike’s mechanics reverted to the old double hitch — one vertical and the second horizontal behind his waist — he had to lunge because he was then out of sync and he thought he couldn’t get to the outside part of the plate. So mechanics do cause both synchronization and timing problems.
Dude you never HAVE to lunge thats the point!
Lunging means you have shifted your weight too early before the ball got there. Thats not a product of doing too much it’s a product of starting too soon.
He needs to stay back and start the swing LATER.
if he did the mechanics would not be out in front and his weight will not have shifted yet.
When Ike had his string of hits he was making a concerted effort to keep his front shoulder in. And that delayed his swing. He could do whatever he wanted in his mechanics provided he kept that shoulder in.
He needs to wait more before he starts his mechanics and tyhen he won’t be lunging.
As for the outside pitches thats all a product of being too early. He has not timed his bat to be in the zone when the pitch is. It has already gone through, There is no mechanical fix for that you simply have to wait for the pitch to get there!
Since they are throwing all crap at him it gets there even later!
This is all about his head and timing nothing more.
He thinks he needs more time to start his swing and starting early and then when they do happen to throw a fastball at him he thinks he is too late and takes it for a strike.
Best thing for him right now is to keep pointing his right shoulder at the third baseman, for as long in his swing as possible, By doing that the weight won’t shift so quickly and he will stay back long enough to hit the outside pitches the other way and the inside pitching he will pull for power.
He has a very noisy swing yes but the truth is the extra movements couldn’t possibly make him swing earlier than he should. If he was late getting to the ball it might be a cause but it can never cause him to be too early thats all about when he starts and when you start is all about the timing not what you do AFTER you have started the clock.
Metsie — We know what he should do. I don’t think that’s in question. It’s what he is doing. His mechanics are screwing him up.
P.S.: His issues are so intuitively obvious that to say his mechanics are not an issue and not the originating cause is mind boggling.
Well Des I suggest you take it up with Hudgens because he said it isn’t Mechanics!
You say it’s intuitively obvious yet how intuitive is it to suggest he’s doing too much and that is what is making his bat come through early!
Well Metsie, I’ll take it up with whoever you suggest after you take it up with Rusty Staub. Next you’ll be debating about what is mechanical and what is timing.
But this is not a game of last man standing, so I’ve given my view and I rest comfortably with it.
How many hours of Film has Rusty looked at compared to Hudgens?
Put it in perspective Des please!
Metsie — It’s over. Like I said it’s not last man standing.
HI Guys,
Apologize if I was coming across that I was making the valley fever appear as a major factor in Ike’s decline. Was suggesting only that valley fever might be a small part of a three way equation, even though tests have not discovered anything further (or slight fatigue being an after-effect of the condition) because despite the five home runs, I haven’t observed much solid contact when Ike actually hits the ball (when in a slump, one still makes some solid contact at times, if only to be hit right at a fielder).
Certainly, the fever wouldn’t cause him to be fooled so much and to lunge at bad pitches. It also would have nothing to do with his mechanics being way off from what we’ve seen in the past. As many of us have admitted, we might all have been guilty of too high an expecation based on his rookie season and the handful of games played last year when the league was still trying to figure out his weak points. Because he was out most of last year, this seems to have come out of the blue and more of a shock cause his absence tends to make us forget he really has just 2010 behind him.
Valley fever took out Conor Jackson…you never know.
But he is all out of sync. He lunges, his hands are never in the same place…could it just be from losing almost a whole year to a bone bruise? Maybe he does need Buffalo but just to get his swing back and not a permanent trip. Gaby Sanchez and Adam Lind went down so why can’t Ike.
This would also help the outfield with Duda moving to 1B even if it means Bay has to play…
They have to do something.
But one thing that crossed my mind and it’s kind of crazy…remember that blue eyes thing that Josh Hamilton brought up with light and all that. Could it be the blue wall? He’s at least hitting on the road but at Citi he is doing nothing at all. I know…crazy…but what else has changed at Citi to make him stink up the joint.
Hi Metsie,
First, my apologies for always spelling your name incorrectly – it might be a problem with those of us associated with History (either through teaching or having majored in the subject as an undergraduate and continuing a bit as a graduate student).
And I know it isn’t my place to say this but as a cyber friend I do hope one day you are able to throw those cigarettes away. My wife was a chain smoker (close to three packs a day) but when she came down with breast cancer 16 years ago it scared her enough that she just threw the packs away and hasn’t picked up one since. Fortunately, her breast cancer was a stage zero level but it causing her to finally quit a doctor told us getting a less serious cancer was a blessing in disguise because it stopped her from possibly getting one much more serious down the road.
She now can’t stand the smell of smoke.
Again, sorry if I was butting in where I shouldn’t and please don’t see this as a sermon as it is more a concern.
Joe
LOL Joey…The only time I care how someone spells my name is when it’s on a Paycheck!
I do appreciate the concern and I know I should but I’m kind of still in Dennis Leary mode LOL
Hi Metsie,
Was Leary thinking of you when he penned this down?
“I’m the enemy because I like to think. I like to read. I’m into freedom of speech and freedom of choice.”
LOL Yep!
A bit cold in your assessment of Ike not taking into account the quality of the starting pitchers the Mets have faced at home as well as the abundance of lefty – lefty matchups. That said, Ike should go to the minors to get his head on straight. Righ now he is frustrated, and frustration leads to blaming the umpires, which leads to not getting calls, which leads to etc. Enough before this becomes a commercial. Seriously, Ike right now needs to clear his head and start fresh. He can’t do that here. Send him to the minors for a month, move Duda to first thereby keeping Captain Kirk and Baxter in the line up when Bay returns. One frustrated individual in the line up at a time.
Stupid move. Davis should be in Buffalo. They really think limiting his playing time will help him out? For a young guy like Ike, this can get worse before it gets better.
It will help in two ways….
It keeps him under Hudgens’ Watch, He can work out in the indoor cage (we have a long home stand) and then when there is a favorable matchup he can test it in a MLB game situation.
In games where we already have a lead we can put Ike in there for defensive reasons and maybe get him an AB or Two.
There is nothing they can do for him in the Minors that they can’t do here!
So it’s okay for a guy more established like Gaby Sanchez to sent down but not Ike? Maybe it’s me, but I dislike the fact that this guy was our cleanup hitter on Opening Day and now getting replaced by the likes of Vinny Rottino & Justin Turner.
The quotes I’m reading so far being attributed to Ike are of a player that admits the rather loud whispers about him eventually going down has to some extent gotten in his head.
In retrospect Collins public remarks about the discussions of wringing the rag dry before deciding if sending Ike down may have only made things worse for Ike. Of course I admit this is highly speculative on my part.
I have to wonder if internally this was also seen as having an adverse effect on him hence the statements of Ike saying that they had a meeting and they are sticking with him through this and support that he can turn it around.
Some of the quotes from Ike so far are:
“I’m going to be here for an extended period of time to get my (swing) back) and playing better,’’ Davis said. “Obviously they have confidence in me, they’re backing me and they know I’m going to get through this. So I’m going to be here for awhile, and it’s just up to me to start playing better.’’
“It helped, because now I don’t have to talk about going down every day with you guys, so that’s nice,’’ Davis said. “Obviously you think about it. When we answer questions, it’s not like what you guys say goes in one ear and out the other; I have to think about it, so obviously I thought about it more. It’s just nice to get that out of the way, that if I go 0-for-4 tomorrow I’m not going to get sent down.’’
http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/metsblog/mets_won_send_struggling_davis_to_WwwgNOcmqfg44qJLVvQGRJ
Eddie C on with Francesa just now said that 6 different veterans went in last night and asked for Ike to stay.
Thanks for that heads up, North. That is quite interesting and I wonder if is unusual for veterans to make such appeals on behalf of a young player in Ike’s situation.
This from Collins on Ike Davis:
“This game’s all about confidence,” Collins said. “It’s all about believing in yourself. When you’re going through a slump like Ike is, you lose that confidence, you lose how you feel about things. It wears on you. He’s not sleeping well. So I thought one of the things we’d try to do is make sure he understands we believe in him. We trust him. He’s an outstanding player. We told him he’s the first baseman.”
As for why Collins decided to take demotion off the table for now, the manager said, “It was the easy way out. And this game’s not easy. And if he’s gonna be an outstanding major league player, he’s gotta learn to fight through some tough times.”
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/46276/davis-wont-be-shuffling-off-to-buffalo
He has swung and missed and got hit by 2 pitches this year.I have never seen that before.Give him an eye test.Maybe he needs contact lenses..
During the rain delay Sandy Alderson was interviewed by Gary and Ron and the subject of Ike Davis was, of course, raised. Ron asked Sandy what was wrong with Ike and there was something in his answer that I think goes to the heart of our disagreement on whether or not player personnel moves are made based more on his own understandings and insights or if thoee are left to his supporting staff (with his station being the club’s chief executive officer instead).
Sandy started off with the rider that he “was not a player” and could only talk about it “as an observer”. So the question is 1) is this the type of self-portrait one expects to hear from an individual responsible for player moves, consummating trades, pursuing free agents, deciding who to call up, who to send down, etc., or 2) is the lack of professional understanding in this aspect of the game not really necessary when it comes to the formulation of rosters?
Any thoughts?
he makes the call, based on all the info he can gather, much of which comes from his staff of experts. That seems pretty common, since if you look around at GMs, most of them never played professionally.
I did not see the interview (not having SNY), but if it was in regard to what exactly is wrong with Ike (mechanics, rust/timing/mental) then it makes perfect sense to me (his comment), since it seems to be saying you really can’t know what a player in that situation is going through unless you have done it.
Hi Stick,
So if I’m correct, this means that although he makes the final call, his decision is based more on those below him than of his own recognizance unlike former players like Omar (who had a short stint in the minor leagues) or Billy Beane. Could be.
How many current GMs are former players?
Are you saying that should be a prerequisite for holding that position?
And what defines a former player? HS, College, minor league ball, ML ball?
I don’t think any GM makes decisions concerning the roster, player moves, trades, drafts or acquisitions in a vacuum. He is the face out there though when those moves are made, so the success or blame is usually tagged to him.
And what defines success as a GM?
Winning something with what he inherits?
Winning something while he’s here with moves he’s made?
Team winning with his moves after he’s no longer here?
Most of this team here right now is not attributed to Sandy. Is what we’re seeing – hovering around .500 – attributed to the moves he’s made, pieces he’s inherited, payroll?
So much to look at with that question.
Hi Srt,
The question was posed not really about any individual success but rather where the credit should go to. Yes, no general manager works in a vacuum, however, does one like Sandy Alderson play as integral a part leading up to the decision as a Billy Beane or Omar Minaya?
And I agree being a former player on any level is not necessarily a prerequisite for such a position but in today’s game we don’t know which GM is doing what.
Trying to figure out where the credit – or blame – should go would be difficult as well.
Hard to do that when a GM takes over and inherits what he inherits. Those pieces are going to affect ‘his’ team going forward for years.
How do you separate what he inherits vs. the moves he makes when he takes over?
You can evaluate immediate signings and trades, but you can’t evaluate drafts and international signings for years to come.
I would have to think unless a GM is incredibly bad out of the gate (something along the lines of a Seaver trade) – or a genius in his first year or two (like getting to post season and winning it all) – you just can’t evaluate it. Even then, getting to post season early has to be attributed somewhat to the exiting GM.
Ahh I see why you was asking now. I don’t know Joey D you seem to have this thing about credit and how much or how little Alderson should get. As the GM he will get the blame if and when he fails. He will on the opposite most likely never get all the credit of they succeed. It will be ownership, scouting, the front office, the coaches and most importantly the players.
You mention how does one like Sandy Alderson play as integral a part leading up to the decision as a Omar Minaya? A question that can’t ever be answered with any real accuracy because no one knows internally the inner workings of either when they held the position of GM.
I often see Minaya given credit for many of the prospects by fans and as the GM he rightly deserves recognition but I never see fans give credit to his vp of scouting Sandy Johnson who from many accounts is credited more directly with many of the players in the system today.
The point is a GM that in my opinion worth his salt is only as good as the people he surrounds himself with and often times the hardest job a GM can have is knowing who best to surround himself with.
Thanks North, it was the question of whether or not Sandy gets too much credit – or criticism – for the moves the Mets have made.
Sandy has received a lot of credit for coming into the game cold and becoming a great observer of talent and being directly responsible for building successful and winning teams. He has been deemed by many as the grandfather of saber metrics, has said that he looked into untraditional methods to better understand the game and has been cited by Billy Beane and Paul DePoesta among others as being an inspiration to them.
That sounds like one who has a rich understanding of the game on a professional level. But from many an interview I have yet to hear him discuss the game itself in such detailed terms as he does the business aspect of it.
Yea I don’t know what to tell you Joey D. Alderson is recognized among his peers for the work he has done in his career. Not sure what is it you are looking for more than that. If it is the inner workings of what percentage exactly he did as opposed to a decision he did based on a suggestion by his FO you may never get the answer short of asking Alderson yourself. Meanwhile the end result is the same. Either the decision will be good or bad and regardless the fault will lie in the end with him for going or not going with the decision or decisions.
I know in the brief months here on MMO this has been a long running question for you so I hope you can 1 day find resolution with this.
Hi North,
Actually the discussion regarding the credit Sandy Alderson deserved as far as his involvement in player personnel had started before even I arrived on the scene.
At first, I thought it was more a debate about the validity of advanced computer analysis versus the more traditional methods of building a team roster from year to year. Yes, he had assistant general managers and directors to help him but I had assumed that Sandy himself played an integral role in determining which players would be best for the team in terms of free agent signings, negotiating the players to be involved in trades, who to release, who to re-sign, who to call up, send down, etc. But then the question of the different hats a general manager could wear came into the discussion. I didn’t take it too seriously until I heard Mike Francesa (in a discussion about football) cite that a certain general manager had nothing to do with player decisions, leaving that to others, and only became involved when the issue became a matter of cost and contract negotiations.
It was then that I began wondering if Sandy was more involved in financial and legal matters and delegated the work regarding player personnel to others that he had faith in. A check into his professional resume along with his interviews made me conclude this was probably more the case and that he might have set more the direction of decision making of the club by emphasizing the use of computer analysis and establishing financial values for players.
That’s why I again raised the question last night due to my surprise regarding the manner he began phrasing his answer about what was wrong with Ike Davis. His analysis certainly didn’t sound like it was coming from an astute and professional baseball mind but more of an astute business executive. Yet, he is being attributed as the actual architect of those great Oakland clubs and prior draft picks which goes back to the debate that started here it seems long before you or I came on board.
One final thought, and I will admit this is more of an uneducated guess and nothing more, but under Omar, there was a Director in charge of player development and another for scouting whereas under Sandy both those functions are being handled by a Vice President who is also an Assistant General Manager, a much higher title. Could that be a reflection of more responsibility in these areas delegated to Paul De Podesta?
Because of the passionate differing opinions appearing in MMO, that is why I am still seeking resolutation to this question – even though it is obvious where my own feelings lead to.
“Sandy started off with the rider that he “was not a player” and could only talk about it “as an observer”.”
What else did you expect him to say?
Hi North,
I actually did expect to hear him say something more, even if in just general terms, about what he sees in Ike’s mechanics that are different from 2010, that certain types of pitches are giving him more difficulty now than before, that he has been unable to adjust to pitchers who have now adjusted to him and pitching to him differently than his rookie year, that part of the problem might be with not having hitters in the lineup to protect him and thus having to learn to be more patient or something to that effect. He did acknowledge that the decision not to send him down was based on the recommendations he received from the manager and coaches.
Though Sandy does have to be careful with what he says, I think we’ve heard many valid points raised in this forum of which some Sandy could have also expressed on the air this evening without creating any problems.
Joey Joey Joey…You should have consulted with your Lawyer first! LOL
I know this line of thinking mostly stems from the conversation about Sandy’s time as GM for the A’s.
in that situation (different from now) Sandy was GM in Name and perhaps SOME of the duties we know most GMs do (Set Procedures, Clerical Requirements, Neogtiated Contracts ,Handled the Budget and Financial issues Etc), But he was not the architect of the Baseball machine (Baseball Operations) they had until after 1991.
The President of the company hired Sandy and the head of Baseball operations and both reported to him not just Sandy.
In that case Sandy is niether the Architect nor the final decider in anything they did before 1991, he may have had much more influence and become a bigger part of those conversations from 1989 until Ownership changed, the President moved on and Sandy was promoted, but he did not build the machine that was successful in 1989.
Contrast to now (and some degree post 1991 in Oakland)
Sandy is the guy who picked and hired the guys who run the baseball operations. There is no one really above him who said to hire someone that reports to anyone above Sandy. Sandy picked his own staff and as a result gets credit for the success or failure and actions of that staff.
So the Buck stops at Sandy. And any success (or failure) is credited to Sandy because he Hired the folks who created the advice and Sandy was the one who decided which suggestion from his hand picked staff the team would go with.
Even if the situation was that Sandy hired a staff but let them make all decisions (for whatever reasons you can think of) he still will get credit or criticism based on what that staff does.
Which really is the issue at the heart of this discussion….
To Say Sandy was a good GM in Oakland may be true, but the lie is in the definition of the GM and not anything to do with what happened on the baseball decisions.
To say Sandy was the guy who won the 89 A’s a world series is false because what did he do to make that happen? Vette, Pick and Hire the Baseball Evaluation staff? Well he may have hired them (in a technical/semantical way) but only because someone else said this is the guy we want and then Sandy would write up the contract for them. The head of baseball operations picked the actual guy they hired. Sandy didn’t even pick and hire the guy in charge of baseball Ops the president did and he was the guy who said the Baseball Side wants this guy and the president would make the final decision and say to Sandy get it done!
Far different than what we have here…
Sandy picked the staff that makes the cases for the different options and Sandy decides which one they go with. Even if Sandy did not make the final decision and let his staff decide on their own Sandy gets credit for hiring them and credit for thier actions!
The problem you have is his time as GM in Oakland was not your typical GM. He wasn’t making a lot of decisions doing a lot of evaluations nor was he the guy who picked the folks who made those baseball reccomendations. He was not a GM as most people think someone with a GM title is and does.
As to the subject of does he NEED to know baseball to be a good GM? Well not really!
Does it help? Of course it does but it is not required to be a GM or to build a successful team.
All it takes is hiring the right people who DO have that knowledge.
In most corporations the GM doesn’t decide everything that a company does
There are probably 100 decisions made a day that never reach the GM’s Desk and Ears.
Those are made by the guy he has hired to run that department, the GM gets some credit for hiring that guy.
And the majority of the time the GM actually makes a final decision is when it is a matter that crosses departmental lines that no middle manager has the power to make.
So the awarding of credit needs to be given based on what they ACTUALLY DID not what their title suggest they did!
Sandy did not build the baseball operations of Oakland pre-1991
But he is wholly responsible for the baseball operations here!
You don’t NEED to be a good baseball person or have a baseball history to be a good GM and build a winning team, but you do have to be able to recognize and hire those that are so you have the expertise available to you to make those good evaluations.
And since all those folks charged with building this team are picked by Sandy he deserves any credit (good or bad) that results from thier work.
Not really the case in Oakland pre 1991!
Someone else picked and hired them and didn’t even need to ask Sandy for a decision because they reported to Dandy’s boss.
I hope that clear up the issue of both what a GM needs to know and how and for what he should get credit for!
Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
So it went right over your head I guess…
If you hire someone who screws up whose fault is it?
Should you be fired for something done by someone someone else hired did?
NO!
Then neither should you get credit for something done by somone someone else hired!
Credit is awarded based on what you did towards it’s accomplishment!
Not what you think all GMs do in general because they don’t ALL do the same thing!
Something you would know if you had any corporate management experience!
If a Principal hires a pedophile does he not get the blame?
If someone else (not hired by the principle) hires him, does the principle deserve to get fired for his being there? Or should he be REWARDED for identifying the error and corrcting it?
You are responsible for the success and failure of the staff you hired.
Unfortunatly Pre 1991 Sandy did not hire the baseball operations folks, someone else did!
Hi Metsie,
My timeline thoughts were based exactly on our past conversations but even though you are indeed my lawyer on matters such as this, I did not want to bring you into the discussion as the third person – you get enough rhetorical responses without needing any further help from me!
The only difference between us is that if one hires the right people and is somewhat successful, that individual deserves credit on the executive level but should not share credit due to those who formulated the moves themselves. I also believe if a team is not successful the ax shouldn’t necessarily fall on the general manager. In Sandy’s case, it should be those he hired because Sandy runs the business end whereas in Omar’s case he deserved it because he was running the player personnel aspect.
There are those who credit Sandy for becoming a baseball guru due to saber study and money ball and thus being blessed with an analytical mind and coming across the methodology of Bill James, he was able to more call the shots than just approving them. Valid argument, except that I don’t think one can come in with no admitted professional knowledge of the game and can become such an architect virtually over night. That comes from my belief that, like Howie Rose, one goes to a traditional baseball person when it comes to the game itself, not the computer.
Again, I know there are others out there who disagree with me on this and all I ask is that we keep the discussion civil and focus on tearing apart my arguments and not me personally. If others have the thick skin to go back and forth between themselves in that type of spirit, that’s something else.
Basically all I’m saying is you can’t award credit based on what you think is the standard definition of thier job you can only award it based on what they actually did.
Is Sandy a great Badeball Talent Evaluator? Or is it more that he is a good Evaluator of Baseball Talent Evaluators? Since the only ones he has ever picked were after 1991 there is nothing about pre 1991 success that says anything about Sandy’s skill in picking before 1991!
So his success at that needs to be decided based on what he has done Since he started picking those talent Evaluators.
Just as hiring a great Plumber to fix my pipes does not mean I have a great knowledge of plumbing! but maybe I have a good skill at picking and vetting the professionals I hire to do a job. Maybe I don’t and just got lucky which could also be the case post 91 in Oakland with the selection of Beane!
In either case credit is earned by what you actually did and was responsible for making happen. And if you picked or selected the guy that made it happen you do deserve SOME credit for making the right choice!
Sandy didn’t make those decisions pre 1991!
So whoever did gets the lionshare of the credit for the hirings not Sandy whose role was clerical not managerial!
Hi Metsie,
I think I see what you are getting at. It is not that Sandy took over the responsibility of evaluating talent and making decisions based on his own research and understanding in 1991 but rather that this was when he was given the authority in choosing the baseball people to take that charge whereas before that did not come under his jurisdiction.
The focus of my contention was that Sandy was not the baseball guru in terms of formulating player and that he made his decisions based on the recommendations of that who did. I see your point, however, holding him responsible for the outcome of Oakland after 1990 and the Mets now because it was he who chose the people to do that work.
In that case, the ultimate success or failure lies with the owners who hire the executive to run the team for them. So let’s lay off Sandy and focus our attention to Fred and Jeff. Seems reasonable – only an idiot would have designed Citi Field with those original dimensions and walls and out-price the fan base at the same time.
“It is not that Sandy took over the responsibility of evaluating talent and making decisions based on his own research and understanding in 1991 but rather that this was when he was given the authority in choosing the baseball people to take that charge whereas before that did not come under his jurisdiction.”
But also because he was given the role of DECIDER (in 1991) amongst the people that were on the staff no matter if he hired them or not!
He may not have hired everyone who made reccomendations to him in 1991 (in fact the head of baseball Ops was the same guy who USED to report directly to the president, sandy’s boss!)
But now that it was Sandy wieghing the advice and making the final decision, he gets credit for making them as well regardless if the staff was all hired by him or not!
He got two things in 1991….
1 – The ability to hire or fire staff!
2 – The right to FINAL decisions based on whatever the staff he had on payroll said!
He deserves credit for any and all decisions made after 1991…Before then someone else made those decisions on Staff, Moves and Evaluations and whoever made them is the one who should get the lionshare of the credit.
oh and one point needs to be brought up about the Wilpons Hiring him…
They did not really have much of a choice in the matter there since Bud was the guy who was lending them the money and insisted on Sandy being in charge…
So pass ro Fail of Sandy is as much on Selig as the Wilpons…
You can however blame the Wilpons for allowing themselves to be put into that position in the first place…
…. and if I was at the game this evening and sitting just past third base in the upper promenade I could also blame the Wilpons for not being able to see that great catch by Baxter in left.
And if you were in Section 8-5 Rows 20 and above in Loge at Shea you wouldn’t have seen it either…
Blame the architect for not doing his job properly
Hi Metsie,
Actually, there was no row 20 because the rows were alphabetical and the five sections sandwiched in-between five through eight (odd numbers along the right and even numbers along the left) were between either side of home plate and the dugout.
But I have often sat in the left field loge sections 26, 28 and 30 in the first few rows of the reserved seats and know I would not have seen that catch either due to the natural laws of geometry that no architect can compensate for regarding the elimination of the line of sight as the degree of the angle is reduced due to the relationship between height and distance…. , which is different than having an expensive restaurant angled toward and situated closer to the field in relation to the level below in order for it’s patrons to have a better view of the field at the expense of those sitting in the less expensive level above.