30
2012
Jeff Wilpon Says No Urgency On Extending Wright
An article by 
Updated 7:40 PM
The big man upstairs has spoken according to Adam Rubin of ESPN New York:
Chief operating officer Jeff Wilpon, while expressing hope David Wright will be a Met long term, noted there is no urgency since Wright is under the team’s control through the 2013 season.
The comments came a day after GM Sandy Alderson said he did plan to engage Wright’s agents during the season.
“There’s no gun to anybody’s head,” Wilpon said. “So let it just play out. And at the right time Sandy and I will discuss it and it’ll move on.”
Interestingly enough, after the original Brian Costa report in which he said a Mets source confided they were working on a longterm offer for Wright, Sandy Alderson has also clarified what was reported this morning by Jon Heyman and simply says he would talk with Wright’s agents at some point this season.
This all sounds eerily similar to how the Reyes negotiations or non-negotiations went down.
Also pay particular attention where Jeff Wilpon says “Sandy AND I” will discuss it.
It’s kind of a far departure from:
“We’ve never interfered with our general managers and have never not let them sign whomever they wanted”.
Wilpon did manage to throw in a few nice words about the farm system saying that the Mets Minor League System is better than people had given it credit for and he praised the club’s depth. “It’s great to see.”
Hey, I guess sometime this past weekend we topped 4,000 followers on Twitter… Thanks!
Original Post 8:00 AM
Sandy Alderson has confirmed to Jon Heyman of CBS Sports that an offer will be made to David Wright during the 2012 season.
“I would expect sometime before the season’s over, we will have a conversation,” Alderson told CBSSports.com.
Neither Alderson nor Mets COO Jeff Wilpon would say when they planned to make the mega-offer to Wright, though Alderson said,
“It’s not an urgent situation for us. He’s not a free agent, and we do have an option (for 2013). And we have other contractual situations we’ve dealt with.”
Earlier this month, Brian Costa of the Wall Street Journal reported that the Mets were quietly preparing a long-term contract extension for Wright, according to a baseball official familiar with the team’s thinking.
“I’m hopeful he’ll be here a long time,” the GM said about Wright.
Given Wright’s injury concerns in the last two seasons, the Mets have taken a cautious approach and have waited to see how his performance would measure up in 2012 before engaging in any kind of negotiations - rightfully so. Wright has responded with a strong start to the season batting .373 with five home runs and 28 RBI.
“We talked about wanting to see how things developed. We’re at the quarter mark,” Alderson pointed out.
While I don’t agree with him, Heyman believes that the Mets will top the $100-million, six-year extension the Nationals completed with Ryan Zimmerman in March.
I don’r believe the Mets will offer more than five guaranteed years for Wright. If there is a sixth year, it most likely would be a team option or a vesting option. I do expect both sides to work things out especially now that the team finds itself in a much more stable and solid financial situation than a year or two ago. You can all expect both Fred Wilpon and Sandy Alderson to be out in front of this especially now that the Mets have been officially awarded the 2013 All Star Game.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 23 | 18 | .561 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 19 | .548 | 0.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 23 | .465 | 4.0 |
| Mets | 16 | 24 | .400 | 6.5 |
| Marlins | 11 | 31 | .262 | 12.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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Strike up the band. Here comes the haters.
Way to make up your own facts in the headline and elsewhere, Joe D.
Shame on you!
I never thought about it, but having the AS game in NY might be an added pressure, if you call it that, to lock up Wright. He’ll be the face of the team, possibly the only Met starter for the AS game and can you imagine the tabloids going crazy with Wright possibly walking with the media spot light on NY… I’m thinking they lock something up by the end of the year, maybe 2/3 or 3/4 through the season. Especially if they are out of it, just to create so good news in a lost season (assuming they still aren’t in it!).
NJStuck: I said that very recently. The All-Star Game is an opportunity to fill the stadium. You give priority to your season and partial plan holders. If you have David Wright and a team that plays competively it increases your chances of pre-sale opportunities. The All-Star Game is a big deal for this franchise next year. If the team plays well and Wright is here, it can help rejuvenate a fan base and an empty stadium.
David Wright and his team will handle the situation in a professional manner. He recognizes the need to create a WIN-WIN solution. Peter Greenberg will not be given a chance to rain on the parade with David. Oh, if only Jose had received and acted on good advice.
Dude’s making $106 million. What would good advice have gotten him?
Des, you keep bringing this up but Jose didn’t fail. He wanted to be in Miami and got a hell of an over-payment to do so.
trs86 — I hope Jose enjoys his two years or so in Miami. His contract is back-loaded and when the novelty of the new stadium wears off and attendance declines, the clown in the front office, David Samson, will try to pawn him off for pennies on the dollar. It won’t work and I predict Samson and Reyes will both be gone. Jeffrey Loria will have a very expensive shortstop in his stable and he might have to ship Jose and cash to another team. Regarding your other point, Greenberg and Reyes likely have little or no credibility among owners for trying to play this out in the press. Attempting to vilify the Wilpon’s was not the way to go. The evidence is that no other team besides Miami made an offer! Despite a few exceptions, owners are just as clubby as players and GM’s.
I think Jose knew very well he might be traded in a couple of years and most likely didn’t care. He gets the party life in Miami while things are “cool” and then traded to a contender later. Besides, ultimately he got exactly what he wanted… paid.
What some may not understand is….
He is making 106 Mil!
If they Do trade reyes in 2 years it will be because they didn’t win a WS!
And they will most likely trade him to a contender which is only good for Reyes not bad!
I just don’t get how some say Jose got screwed by his agent. Backloading can only ever hurt the team not the player!
So what he gets traded from Miami if they can’t win a WS! He will simply go to a team that can in a trade for prospects!
Well it can hurt if the team starts to implode and Reyes wants to be traded to win a championship. But overall he is going to make his money.
Well with 106 Mil in the bank you can pretty much get through anything!
as long as he doesn’t care where he goes for 4 years, no problem. But it seemed really clear that going to Miami was his ideal situation (of course he was taking the money, but he got the $ and the desired location).
Just better not say a peep about it if he gets traded someplace he does not want to be (whereever that is to him). Texas, Cincinatti, St Louis, toronto, Seattle? I am sure there are cities that are much further from the D.R. and without the lifestyle of Miami that cold cause him to go WTH am I diong here!
Maybe the party lifestyle won’t appeal to him in his mid 30′s.
Not sure but doesn’t a player who is under contract and gets traded have the right to request free Agency at the end of the year? How much service time do you have to have to get that?
I don’t think so Metsie. I am not sure when that rule applies but I am pretty sure it wouldn’t apply until after he gets 10-5 rights maybe? Besides, you think he’s gonna want to tear up the back of that contract?
AHHH Thats it….I knew he would have 10 years of service but he would not have the 5 years with the same team so he wouldn’t get it.
I wasn’t sure what the second number was and was too lazy to search for it! LOL
Sorry, As for tearing up the contract well in two years he could make another good deal and if he was really sent someplace he hated he wouldn’t lose all that much.
Reyes is HARDLY overpayed…
People expected him to get Crawford money at one point. He didn’t get that but what he got is pretty fair considering his contributions. Just because he has had a slow start so far means nothing!
Pujols has had a slow start (though in his defense he is learning a new league) and no one is ready to say Pujols isn’t going to hit ever again!
Only one more comment on this one too as I think everyone knows where we all stand. Reyes IMO was overpaid, the fact that no one else even made an offer and Reyes jumped on the first offer tells me that.
But thats not true TRS…Reyes didn’t take thier first offer!
Marlins increased their offer at the Winter Meetings hoping to stop Reyes from persuing other offers and since it was enough to meet his expectations he took it and didn’t meet with the other teams.
He was talking with Milwalkee, and the Tigers showed some interest.no offer was made because Those talks were stopped because the Marlins had upped thier offer to 106 Mil!
He also went to Philly for Dinner (why would you do that unless you have a cheesesteak fetish?) Phillies denied any contact but that doesn’t mean they were not covertly interested in seeing what he would cost in case Rollins was too expensive. It’s hardly a hard fact but rather suspicious to say the least.
The only thing thier original offer had in it (over ours) was the extra 2 years where we wanted a 4 year deal they offerred 6! 6/90 was the original number and Reyes did not commit because he wanted to see what others were planning to offer.
If we had offered a 4/90 deal (or 5/95) as some suggest they would have been happy with Reyes might never had got as far in FA to take an offer from anyone!
Because he would have gotten one more chance at an even bigger retirement plan in 4 years while he was still relatively young at 33/34.
Link to original Offer
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22297882/33327226
Sure Reyes wanted to get 100Mil as that was his target. And who knows if he would have accepted less than that to stay in NY.
But you can’t deny by not making the offer some say they would have been happy to resign Reyes for we could have eaten up more Marlin money to keep them from signing someone else we wanted in the future!
In either case we blew it by not making ANY offer to Reyes…If we had Sandy couldn’t be knocked if he had made an offer Reyes then turned down and who knows if Reyes would have given us that discount by showing some semblence of wanting him before he knew what the Marlins had planned for him.
There is only one reason to avoid giving Reyes an offer and only one motive…
The reason is because if you give him an Offer he might actually accept it!
Sandy simply did not want Reyes on his team plain and simple!
And making him an offer might mean he was stuck with him!
how exactly is what philly, detroit, etc. did any differnet than the Mets? Have a price in mind, and have him come in with his best offer, and say no thanks when asked to bid against it?
Simple none of them had the opportunity to make an offer before the Malins did!
The Mets did though!
They were prepared to make an offer until the Marlins made thier increase and told Reyes thats it take ot leave it as we are moving on!
Sandy could have done that before Reyes knew what the Marlins had planned and maybe he takes ours then instead!
A point you guys seem to want to shy away from from despite it’s truth!
what point? that no matter what the offer presented was, team Jose was immediately going to shop it around, including to Miami, saying this is what you have to beat?
Thats an assumption Stick not a fact!
You BELIEVE that but tell me…did Reyes shop around the Marlins offer when they upped it?
Why didn’t he do it then?
Because he got an offer that was take it or lose it that was close to what he wanted and if we had given him something similar at the price we were willing to go and said the same thing he might have said thats fine I don’t want to lose that offer so I had better take it!
He didn’t take the Marlins offer because he thought that was all he could get, he took it because he KNEW what it was and might have lost it!
Same thing could have happened if we had made an offer before anyone else could!
Reyes can request a trade. If the team can’t find a trade partner he can become a free agent at seasons end. That’s if he’s traded in the middle of the contract. Unless the new CBA changed that’s been the rule. Delgado had that option when he was traded to the Mets and decided not to excercise it.
Fonzie I think Delgado had that because he had 10 years of MLB servive and was with Toronto for 5+years before he got traded to Florida.
That wouldn’t be the case with Reyes unless they traded him after Year 5 at the deadline. In Which case he could demand a trade before he goes FA in year 6.
Unless they changed the 10/5 Rule in the new CBA thats the rule I was thinking of when I thought he could ask for a trade after a trade.
He wouldn’t meet the requirements of that in Miami until year 6 of his contract which he would be FA at the end of anyway.
Delgados 5 & 10 wouldn’t have mattered with the Mets cause he wasn’t a Met for 5 years. That only worked in his favor had he stayed with Toronto or played 5 years with the Mets. I remember the story in the Post that said Delgado will not demand a trade and will play out his contract with the Mets. It may have been the Daily News, not sure. I used to read both every day so I don’t remember.
Well the guy who just got traded couldn’t possibly have 5 years of service with the team he went to, He would have had to have 5 years at Florida in that case before the 10/5 rule kicked in…I do agree it wasn’t the 10/5 Rule that was in play in anyway regarding Delgado and it would not apply to reyes either.
But you are correct that any player with more than 5 Years of service (MLB not Team Specific) Who is traded in the middle of a multiyear deal (would apply to both Delgado and Reyes) can request a Trade or to be granted Free Agency.
If Traded he can not then request another trade.
“A player with five years or more major-league service who is traded in the middle of a multi-year contract can, during the offseason, require his new team to either trade him or let him become a free agent. If the player is eventually traded, he’s not eligible to demand a trade again under the current contract and loses free agency rights for three years.”
http://baseball.about.com/od/majorleaguebasics/a/freeagentprimer.htm
So your right, the 10/5 Rule doesn’t apply but the 5 year rule for MLB service does and considering you could wind up someplace worse plus lose 3 years of Free Agency most player don’t make the request.
Well Stick you have to ask, what kind of team is going to be willing to trade for him with his salary?
Some dreg team like Pittsburg or a Contender?
Where you play isn’t all that important when you have a 106 Million dollars worth of credit!
Truth is he lives in the DR for most of the year anyway and the only benefit to Miami at this point is it is a short hop flight home.
By the time the Marlins give up on buying success (and who says they will?) Reyes will be looking for the ring not the bank book. And I dont’t see a non contender taking on a 22 Mil salary unless they think he is the final piece towards winning.
Which means the only teams who would trade for him are contenders and ask a player they don’t care if they had to play in Alaska as long as it has a good chance of enhancing thier ring finger.
spend a summer in St. Louis or Dallas, and you will see the difference to Miami!
And like I said, better not be one peep out of him if he gets traded someplace he doesn’t want to be.
I thought of the evenbetter place: Detroit!
Des I kind of have to ask here….(and not just asking you here either)
Is making an offer to Wright while he is exclusive to us any different than the “Bidding Against Ourselves” it was when Reyes was still Exclusive to us?
That said I hope he does make some offer but the key will be what offer he makes.
If it’s a severe lowball and not something that makes Wright a “Met for Life” I fear the offer won’t be enough.
And it could end the same way Reyes did!
IMO, there is a big, big difference in working out a deal when the guy is still under control for a long period (at least a year) vs. after they are already a FA (that window after the WS before other teams can sign him).
Reyes, once he hit that point, had absolutley no incentive to not wait to field offers.
But Wrigth would have to factor in the risk of playing another 1-1.5 years without a LT deal in place.
so in my mind reyes was a FA, but they would be working to keep Wright from even getting to FA.
and in case you are interested (or not!), I was on record (along with SRT) that we thought that job 1 after Omar left should have been trying to lock up reyes to a “friendly” deal (factoring in his ongoing injury issues) but obviously we were outvoted. Of course no one knows if he would have signed then, or for how much (since entirely possible he wanted to play out the deal to try and rebuild value, as he did).
Yeah, I remember that and I continued to point out that he was having one of his worst years so the incentive for BOTH sides might not have been there.
But Stick the only difference between the two is how fast you have to talk and becuase of the time pressure less posturing is possible!
But there is virtually no difference other than TIME in those two situations.
And I was right there with you in saying Reyes should have been resolved in the previous offseason…
Sandy wanted to wait and as a result Reyes decided might as well also wait until FA hit!
no, there is a huge difference. Reyes just had to sit on his couch for a month, then accept offers. Wright (as of now) still has to play another 1.5 years, and a lot can happen in that time.
Metsie — You ask: “Is making an offer to Wright while he is exclusive to us any different than the “Bidding Against Ourselves”….
There has been a big difference between how Reyes and Wright have behaved.
Reyes, encouraged by Peter Greenberg, showed his financial immaturity by setting a demand before he knew if the market would support his demands. He personally established his relationship with the Mets on purely mercenary terms, thereby minimizing his usefulness to the team outside the playing field. Reverting to an Irving Picard financial approach, as Jose did, set up the parameters for most of the Reyes-Mets views of each other. Jose’s strident demand was made in times of the Mets financial tumult. It set up a zero-sum deal, which is inimical to WIN-WIN.
Wright on the other hand declared at the outset that he wanted to remain part of the Big Apple community, that he wanted to remain a Met for all his playing days. With those words Wright has shown he wants a WIN-WIN situation. He is too smart to not recognize the dangers of a zero sum game. Yes, he wants to prosper like any other normal human being, but he obviously wants the same for the Mets and their owners.
So which approach would Sandy and Fred respect more? Obviously the Mets saw the difference between Jose and David for the long run. Injuries can happen to either guy, but if they don’t occur, Fred showed whose views he liked. Fred went so far as to say if he had a daughter, he’d welcome a marriage of her to David. He obviously put the bidding against himself concern at a lower priority level.
Excuse me but those terms were never mentioned until AFTER Sandy passed that first offseason on extending him…Before that Reyes said MANY TIMES he wanted to stay in NY and play for the Mets!
So your ignoring the early history to only focus on the POST-SLIGHT events.
in the 2010 Offseason the situation was only different in that there was no Option to buy!
Both have a full year left guaranteed. SO if now is the right time to talk to Wright then 2010 was the right time to talk to Reyes…Sandy refused then, Only was willing when he knew the answer would be no talks and then when talking was ready to be done Sandy withdrew and decided not to make that offer everyone says was there in July!
Regarding the “bidding against themselves”…I think the timing of the offers is a key difference. Generally if you sign a guy the further away he is from FA…the team is going to get a better deal than if free agency is immediate.
With Reyes, I think the Mets just knew that there was no way Jose was going to take the offer they threw his way in that one “exclusive” week. And supposedly they did try to talk to him during the season, but Jose’s people said that they wouldn’t negotiate in season
Well they had two Off Seasons and a years worth of time to make an offer…One never came…
As for how close to the end you make an offer that’s not bidding against yourself….
Bidding against yourself is making a bid, Then without any further bidding increase your offer!
You have to make the first bid before you can bid against yourself!
If you make a bid and set the price that someone else tops thats not bidding against yourself becuase no one says you have to top the new offer!
But by not making a bid you left yourself NO CHOICE to get him without topping someone else’s offer!
You saved NO money!
The only way to save mo ney is to make the first bid and make it good enough that the Player agrees to it before anyone else can bid you up!
The only way you win is if no one else makes a bid and then your STILL bidding against yourself by the definition the folks around here are using to descriibe ANY first bid as a bid against yourself!
I agree that a Zimmerman type deal is over the top. I’m actually more in favor of 4 years in the neighborhood of $90 million with a couple of option years or maybe a single 2 year option.
Wright is older but I think you are underestimating how much he is already paid, how much better he has been over his career than Zim and how much more he means to his franchise. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him get a Zimmerman deal.
Of course that is much better than giving him the Zimmermann Note…
I know Alderson has a reputation for being creative, but how can he promise him the South Western US?
World War III awaits at his fingertips as long as it isn’t intercepted by the MLBPA.
“I know Alderson has a reputation for being creative, but how can he promise him the South Western US?”
Donal,
Easy – the cost of housing is still quite cheap.
this just seems like one of the rare situations where both sides want to get it done, and will be willing to work with each other to be creative. And there may be some easy options to help “save face”. Not that the deal is going to be short, or cheap, but it can look bigger than it really is with option years, and if needed an opt-out as payment to get them.
just seems that given all the factors (including age, length left on the deal) doing something mid-season that involves picking up the option and adding 4/80 on top of it guaranteed, with a vesting option with a player opt-out for say 18 would not be close enough to nail down a deal.
that would be 5/96 guaranteed, with the option making it 6/114 if exercised?
I would guess the 5/96 -6/114 is about the range we are looking at.
As long as the Mets negotiate in earnest that is all we can expect from them. If David still tests the free agent market and decides to settle somewhere else, that would be out of our hands and would not be the fault of the front office.
While some contest Jose fled to Miami, from all indications it seemed the front office was not keen in retaining him – a gutsy move considering the adverse fan reaction but from an objecitve viewpoint quite understandable considering his history of injury and that we had a Tejada waiting in the wings – and a Tejada who showed us he could hit major league pitching unlike his rookie year when he hit just .213. The gripe with many of us was that the money not spent on Jose was not then used, even in part, to fill other holes.
Had the Mets wanted to keep Jose, they would have acted in the manner in which Jon Heyman describes they plan to do with David. The only difference is that Jose was indeed in the final year of his contract and Sandy did not have the luxury of saying “It’s not an urgent situation for us. He’s not a free agent, and we do have an option” as he does now That’s how business is conducted – notice Sandy is not waiting for David to test the free agent market and get back to him?
If you remember the Mets approached Reyes during the season as well. The difference off course is that Wright isn’t a FA at the end of the year. For Alderson to have done the deal the year before Reyes’ contract was up would have been to do it during the middle of 2010…how much you offering this guy: .275 .317 .414 .731?
You notice Wright has not been salivating at the thought of being a free agent in front of the media and refusing to talk during the season?
Of course, the Mets having the option on Wright makes the situations very different.
Based on quotes attributed to Alderson in a post by Adam Rubin Alderson never actually said he will make Wright an offer this season. He said the following, “I don’t want to infer that we will make an offer; we won’t make an offer. We expect to talk his agent this season certainly.”
“So we’ll talk to the agent this year, …I can’t foresee exactly what will take place. But that’s as far as I’ve gone at this point. We can talk about a lot of things that will come up short of an offer. And I’m not trying to suggest that we’re going to make one or not make one or what have you. I’ve said we’d like to have David here long term. I stand by that statement.”
http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/7986104/new-york-mets-gm-sandy-alderson-plans-contact-david-wright-agents-season
Yeah, MLBTR ran with it the same way: “http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/05/mets-intend-to-offer-wright-extension-during-season.html”
Hi North,
Thanks so much for the Rubin article.
Because of Sandy’s ambiguity on other issues in the past I honestly felt this could again just be lip service yet to be fair, had to take what he said to Jon Heyman at face value until proved otherwise. You providing us with other quotes from today again raises that issue of uncertainity.
Why would Alderson ever want to back himself into any unnecessary corner?
Why? Because showing committment to a player is sometimes just as important as the Money you throw at him!
It does nothing at this point. I will just agree to disagree. They have plenty of time and their is no need to back themselves into any corner until they are ready.
It does PLENTY actually….
Every day you delay is another day that some other team could sign someone to a stupid contract extention that inflates the price it costs to re-sign Wright!
Just as waiting on Reyes made people think you needed to pay him Crawford money even BEFORE he won the Batting Title!
If Wright hits .400+ this year (unlikely granted) how much more does the price go up for him in November?
There is an old saying….
Why put off tomorrow what you can do today!
And the Early Bird gets the worm!
Delaying the deal only risks increasing the deal.
Now that doesn’t mean he has to rush but he should have the details hammered out long before Free Agency hits and some team like the Nats, Boston, Yankees, or even Miami decides to overpay some guy who isn’t as good as Wright some stupid amount of money that means Wright’s market value shoots up so far so fast that we can’t risk re-signing him longer than a year or two!
Again, agree to disagree. There is no need at this point to SAY we are going to negotiate during the year. All that matters is if they do or do not.
I don’t know if Heyman titles his posts or someone else does buut clearly Heyman in his article never said that Alderson was going to make Wright an offer this season. The title of his post does which makes me believe Heyman did not title his post. Of course some people saw that and did the same. But again if you read Heyman’s article the only thing said is that they would have conversations some time this year.
Wright’s people may not wish to engage in conversation when that time comes just as Reyes people did during last season. I can understand how anything like this is news but once you read the article it is pretty straight forward that quotes of an offer were never made.
They aired this short SA interview on SNY after the game last night.
What Mr. NJ has here is almost word for word what Sandy said last night when I was watching.
Backtracking already? Tells Heyman one thing and then diffuses it the next day? His snakiness knows no boundaries. I can’t recall a GM who lied more from day to day as Alderson. You can’t trust anything he says.
Where did he say he was absolutely offering Wright a contract during the season? LOL.
Or Heyman once again did a lousy job reporting the story.
Lets look at the 2 most likely scenarios
1) An experienced and accomplished lawyer and baseball executive speaking in absolute terms about a potentially 9 figure deal with a reporter he ahs no real relationship with
2) A reporter who’s work has been in serious decline in recent years hearing a reference to a potentially big deal and running with a overblown headline
Yup, that being said. Where was any quote saying that Alderson was planning to offer a contract DURING the season?
In fact, when Sandy did this interview on SNY after the game last night, he prefaced it with something like: ‘there’s a story just published out there that needs clarification’.
Tells me he knew it was going to be spun up as the Mets said they would make Wright an offer this year and he wanted to clarify up front that’s not what was reported. He said he wanted to diffuse it now so they weren’t answering this same questions of ‘did you make the offer yet, how much, etc’. all year long.
Maniac don’t even bother criticizing or questioning Alderson around here look at what happens, they come out and defend him to the death.
I have never, ever seen a segment of a fanbase so dedicated blindly and off the cuff just defend a GM at any cost – regardless of the job he has done. We never even cared who the GM was while growing up but now? If you question this guy they come out in droves with one thing in mind – to defend Alderson. It makes no difference if he’s wrong, it makes no difference that other moves could have been made, his are the only moves that could have been made and when you question it his army always shoots back as a natural reflex reaction. Incredible.
Oh, and everything he says is the right thing too so don’t question that either. It really sometimes makes you wonder that maybe what this segment of the fan base needs to experience is some serious losing with this guy at the helm. I have never felt that way about this team before this guy took charge but this is not the same lovable Mets anymore – not with this guy and his fanbase now with the floor.
“I have never, ever seen a segment of a fanbase so dedicated blindly and off the cuff just defend a GM at any cost – regardless of the job he has done.”
You mean like you have in the past when it came to Steve Phillips? Just drop it.
“I have never, ever seen a segment of a fanbase so dedicated blindly and off the cuff just defend a GM at any cost – regardless of the job he has done. We never even cared who the GM was while growing up but now?”
Seems like YOU are the one that cares now considering it’s just about all you talk about.
you seriously still believe this? And think that this defend sandy at all costs business actually happens? I certainly don’t see it. Constant harping about everything the FO did or didn’t do maybe, but no ‘sandy is a god that can do no worng” posting.
besides, the guy is a winner it seems. Right now, 1/3 the way into the season, the Mets are holding down a playoff spot.
Oh but Omar, Omar Omar…. LOL. You know that is the response coming so I thought I would get it out of the way.
So the Mets are quietly preparing a long term offer for Wright? That’s nice. Nothing but the best and red carpet treatment for our Boy Wonder. Reyes got parameters but Wright shouldn’t worry, he’ll get a real offer.
Maybe it’s because they want to retain Wright and didn’t want to retain Reyes? Or maybe it’s semantics. The Mets “approached” Reyes during the season last year too.
“Maybe it’s because they want to retain Wright and didn’t want to retain Reyes? Or maybe it’s semantics. The Mets “approached” Reyes during the season last year too.”
Hi Tr,
Exactly the point. It appears the Mets never wanted to retain Jose for the reasons we have all stated and summed up once more in the attached. True, Alderson could not come out and publicly state the Mets posture but privately both parties understood each other.
http://www.mets101.com/2011/12/10/jose-reyes-hurt-by-no-contract-offer-from-new-york-mets/
That being said lets not make Reyes into the victim. The only reason he said that was to try not to Lebron himself into a situation of getting booed by his former fans. He had about as much desire to return as the Mets had in bringing him back. As long it was on his/our terms. Neither side were going to bend for each other.
If he had so much desire to return to the Mets, he would’ve listened to his family when they implored him to talk to the Mets before he got hurt last season. Jose was intent on going to the open market, getting $100 million and wanting to win a ring elsewhere. I don’t know why people had such a hard time believing that, even to this day.
easier to just blame Sandy for forcing him to leave, against his will.
And the same could be said in Reverse…
If Sandy had so much desire in signing nhim he should have done it before it was clear Reyes was having a Career year and leading the league in batting!
That INTENTION sword cuts both ways here!
Would Reyes have gotten 100 Mil before Crawford got his payday or before he won the Batting Title?
NO!
So Sandy not making an offer at ANYTIME cost us more money than any greed on the part of Reyes!
Reyes wanted to extend in the offseason and Sandy refused….And after he saw the tepid interest he decided he might as well test FA instead!
So, Sandy did not want reyes back as badly as some posters wanted him. He is the GM, that is his call, and he has to live and die with making it (and that is the type of move that can get a GM run out of town).
and what he said was, he wanted to see reyes be healthy first, right? And even that did not happen. Would Sandy have made a big push to keep him if he had not gone down with another hammy issue (and out side of the last week, a poor 2nd half)? Maybe. maybe not, but since he did go down, we will never know.
why not take sandy at his word, and admit that he did not hate reyes, he just thought that his value was whatever the parameters he discussed were (which seemed to be about 5/75?), and that to Sandy, making a LT decision for the franchise, he was not worth more. it was not a conspiracy, it was not trying to run omar’s guys out of town, it was not because he does not want to (or care to ) win, He just evaluated the guy as a FA and what he expected him to deliver in return for the contract, and decided it was a bad value.
Playing devils advocate, if he had signed him to a big deal before the season, and he got hurt in early April instead of July, played like the 2nd half most of the year, would you be screaming for his head over signing an injury prone guy when he did not have to? I’m sure some portion of the fanbase would be.
at worst, he rolled the dice and lost. And that is even assuming Reyes was giving a “damaged goods” discount before the season started!
Sandy didn’t want reyes at all!
Sure it’s his call but lets stop trying to make that call as some revisionist INTERESTED fantasy!
He didn’t want him period! The only time he chose to talk deal was when Reyes was busy and didn’t want to talk and the second Reyes WAS ready to talk he was back to not being interested in making an offer anymore!
Same stance he had the previous offseason when Reyes asked for an extention and was told Sandy wanted to wait!
You would’ve re-upped a man who came off TWO injury plagued seasons in a row before he was playing the year he was playing for a contract? The year where he hurt himself not once, but twice! Reyes wanted to extend in the offseason? Again, what stopped him when his family implored him to talk to the Mets? Money….the kind the Mets couldn’t give. Something every single one of us knew going in. Besides, Reyes was telling friends all last season that he couldn’t wait to head out west to play for the Angels (of course, before Miami ever came into the picture). Yeah, he tried out FA, and guess what? ONE team wanted him. What started out as probable fits (Philly, STL, Atlanta, Detroit, LA (Angels), etc.) turned out to be just Miami. Reyes took Miami’s offer because most likely, it was the ONLY $100 million offer he would’ve got.
reyes would have had to sign at a steep discount prior to the year for that reason. So, he pretty much (and this makes sense to me) said I got not much to lose, might as well play out the year and hope I stay healthy and productive.
and in the whole Reyes saga, about the only thing we know for sure is that no other team was going that high, since he did (and it is on the record) take the offer back to shop around (not just to the Mets) and obviously no team was willing to beat it.
YEP!
Because a Batting champ for 130 Games is better than a Guy who is on not and yet STILL injured!
Did anyone, before the season started, expect him to have a career year BA wise in 2011? So couldn’t have paid him before the season based on that.
Thats right…But Sandy wasn’t interested in talking to him BEFORE that season was he?
He wasn’t interested in talking to Reyes until he knew Reyes was not interested in the distraction and then when the Distraction went away Sandy was again not interested in making the offor you all say he was willing to make in July!
AFTER he was already having that season no one predicted!
“Is making an offer to Wright while he is exclusive to us any different than the “Bidding Against Ourselves” it was when Reyes was still Exclusive to us?”
Ah, Metsi,
The obvious hypocrisy could not have been presented any more clearly and precisely.
There are certain accords one practices when the desire is to come to terms or reach a mutual agreement with another party. By limiting himself to just ceremonious (informal) conversations with Jose’s agent, Sandy avoided entering into any type of sanctioned negotation that could be legally adhered to.
the difference is that right now, you can only bid against yourself, since no one else can bid for the next 1.5 years. Not the same thing when the player is already a FA, so that other teams can bid on him.
now that has nothing to do with whether the FO wanted one or the other of these guys (or both or neither), just pointing out that there is a big practical diffenece in the situations. Right now, Wright is where Reyes was in May 2010 (contract wise) and a whole lot happened between then and when he became a FA!
anyway, wasn’t it always normal/customary to work out extensions in the off season, prior to a guy going into his last year? This really is a bit early to be getting all worked up about lack of progress!
First off Reyes was not a Free agent until after the WS was over!
So there was plenty of time to hammer out a deal before he was declared a free agent!
Point is the foilks who say making a bid is bidding against yourself and you should not do that is what FORCED Reyes to free agency since he had no extention offer to accept and avoid Free Agency!
And I will again point out that bidding against REQUIRES two bids not one!
If there is no second bid there is no competition! So your not bidding against yourself unless you have already made a bid and then without any further bid, make a bid again!
You can claim the Marlins bid against themselves but not the mets because you can’t bid against a bid until after the first bid is made!
If you can’t see the difference between a player that was done with the season and only had to go on vacation before he could start hustling offers, and a guy that has 1.5 YEARs left on his current deal, then I can’t really help you.
Yeah what offers did the Mets make?
Have any offers he could have taken?
How can I (or anyone) see what doesn’t exist?
What you don’t seem to WANT to see is the fact that Reyes might have taken what Sandy offered if he had offered anything merely because he had no clue the Marlins were offerring even a penny at the time!
He signed after the Marlins upped their offer and stopped talking to the teams that were interested because the Marlins said this is our best take it or we move on and maybe withdraw that offer if we find something else!
SO you folks who say No one else was interested (I showed Two) and reyes didn’t get any other offers wewre WRONG about how best to play Reyes!
He could have got more money tghan he did if he refused to sign (maybe less too thats possible) But he took the deal that was close to what he was looking for (not the best money abailable) and if we had said to him before anyone else could make a bid “This is what we got this is all we can give you take it or we are moving on and maybe withdraw the deal then declining that would be all Reyes’s doing and he might have said OK I’ll take it, skip FA and the Marlins never get a shot at him!
Bottomline Sandy was afraid to commit to reyes, By not making an offer he avoided the possibility of there being a committment.
I called it out long before the Marlins made any offer….
Sandy was going to feign interest to plactate the press and fans (Plausible Deniability) and once an offer was made Sandy would come out with a number he WAS willng to commit to that was just shy of the offer made to make it look like he was close but just short and reyes went for the money instead!
If the Marlins had offerred 6/80 and Reyes took it the story would have been “Well we were at 5/75″ If the Marlins gave him 6/120 the story would have been “Well we were at 6/110″
The intention was to not sign Reyes while looking you were trying to sign him, nothing more!
The second Miami made the 6/90 offer we were essentially out of the reyes race!
Because we were never really IN the Reyes race! If we had made an offer he might have accepted and thats not what Sandy wanted to happen!
Ah…. more conspiracy theories. I guess they also approached him during the season knowing that he wouldn’t accept.
Again, this is a waste of time. Reyes didn’t want to be here unless it was on his terms and the Mets didn’t want Reyes unless it was on their terms. Oh well.
‘Reyes didn’t want to be here unless it was on his terms and the Mets didn’t want Reyes unless it was on their terms. Oh well.’
This – in a nutshell. As is usually the case with all FAs.
just from reading all the stuff floating around before and after, I personally believe that Reyes had a bit of a Lebron going on (he was already working on the plan to bolt to Miami well before the season ended), and that Sandy had decided early on that Jose was not someone he wanted to put all his eggs into the basket of on a LT deal. Combine that with his public stance about being excited by trying out FA (and the at least well circulated rumor that 9 figures was the requirement), and the deck was stacked against him coming back.
Of course, as FA, it really was up to Jose in the end. And if nothing else, if he really was desperate to stay in NY, he could have accepted arbitration, and actually gotten a HIGHER salary in 2012!
and I said in a comment up above somewhere, Sandy made this decision, and has to live with the consequences (good or bad).
and like the guy or not, but it is way, way harder to make the call to cut a long-time fan favorite loose than it is to bend over and take it with the checkbook open. Ruben Amaro could be learning that one right about now!
We obviously know the Marlins had already made Jose aware of their intentions before the deadline otherwise they wouldn’t have even known he was going to be home for them to call on him at 12:01 LOL.
I do think there was some LeBron issues or maybe Dwight Howard issues in his comments on being hurt about the offer. He IMO was clearly trying to sway the fanbase that he used to call his own. Not sure it worked. Oh well.
“We obviously know the Marlins had already made Jose aware of their intentions…”
Hell NO it’s called TAMPERING and they could not only lose Jose it could have cost them the same Draft picks they did without getting him!
If they contacted him in anyway shape or form begore 11:59:59 it would have been tampering!
“Hell NO it’s called TAMPERING and they could not only lose Jose it could have cost them the same Draft picks they did without getting him!”
You mean a sports agent and shifty owner might do something underhanded and against the rules?
Heavens to betsy.
Yeah thats why they waited until 12:01 to call him!
Another attempt at making Fantasy a fact due to the lack of Evidence to DISPROVE the fantasy!
There is a man in the moon! Must be true since you can’t prove otherwise!
Ya, sure, they waited. Its not like owners, execs and agents have various back channels and other methods to make intentions known to each other. The first time Reyes got an inkling the Marlins were going to give him big money was that cell phone call. Of course, they also just guessed his phone number and got really lucky.
And Reyes went to Miami because he really likes Stone Crab.
Hey, would you like to invest in a stadium in Miami? There’s a really good deal available in Little Havana.
Show your proof they had these discussions because I would love to get the Marlins first two picks next year!
Considering thats what it might cost them…NO I don’t think they would be that stupid to risk losing picks without having the right to sign Reyes just to let him know early they were coming!
It’s a nice fantasy you guys who need an excuse to blame Reyes for Sandy’s lack of interest cooked up!
No basis in fact and if you can prove it and call yourself a Met fan I suggest you make it public so we can get Miami’s 1st and 2nd rounder next year!
If you can’t prove it then stop making up stories as if they are fact….
You guys call us consiracy and have made 5 jokes about the grassy knowl….
Yet you the one with the clandestine plans of the Miami Marlins without a shred of proof!
You know how the rest of us know Sandy wasnt’t interested in resigning Reyes?
He NEVER MADE AN OFFER! Not even in July which is another fantasy you Sandy bobbleheads have created!
Sandy Alderson NEVER ONCE offered Reyes a contract and THATS why he is here not some cloak and dagger operation started by Miami and Reyes!
Yup, there are rules about a lot of things. Like how amateur players aren’t supposed to have agents until they commit to teams. Or how teams aren’t really supposed to have contact with said amateurs until they are drafted or the international free agency period begins.
Or how teams are supposed to pay back loans by certain dates and maintain certain amenities at their parks.
And yet, somehow, teams either find ways around all of those rules or flat out break them.
So, if you want to believe that the Marlins made no contact at all with Reyes even though the godfather of his son plays for them, you go right ahead and do that.
How many of those rules are punishable by loss of draft picks?
Do you have proof or is this just another smokescreen by you to hide your embarassment over selling fantasy as fact!
A couple of them actually. Otherwise, what would be the point of rules dealing with amateurs?
It only becomes a problem when the public finds out.
“Do you have proof or is this just another smokescreen by you to hide your embarassment over selling fantasy as fact!”
Uh huh, Mr 303 IQ
Guess you don’t have the proof which makes you just another nutcase shouting conspiracy theories….
You ARE what you have tried to make the rest of us out to be!
So Typical for you and your butt buddy Jessup!
Just so nobody is confused here. Are you telling me that you believe the Miami Marlins for example never made Hanley Ramirez aware that they would go after Jose Reyes before free agency began?
Do you really believe that?
If you do not believe that, then there’s no way you could tell me you think Jose didn’t know Miami was gonna be interested.
SO Hanley Ramirez is reyes’ Agent? Since when?
If they let Reyes know they were coming after him before he was allowed to talk to other teams it’s tampering and if you have any proof of this happening please feel free to post it so we can send it off the Bud Selig and maybe get next years Draft picks from the Marlins as well!
How do you stop Reyes from talking to the godfather of his son?
So you have no proof then….
You do realize that If they told Hanley and Handley told reyes thats still Tampering right?
Show your proof or you will be dismissed as a conspiracy nut!
uh huh, they would nail a guy for talking to his best friend. Because their conversations are all matters of public record.
As we all knew going in…You have no proof just your little fairy tales!
If I remember correctly one of the blogs had a link showing Loria and another Miami rep with him, in a bar with Jose Reyes at 12:01. It showed him opening his trench coat with him wearing the new Marlin jersey with ‘REYES’ across the back.
Kind of smacks to me that this deal was discussed long before the time period of exclusive rights the Mets had to deal with him.
No you don’t remember correctly…They called at 12:01….The met a few days later!
I honestly can’t believe we are still talking about it any differently.
“I guess they also approached him during the season knowing that he wouldn’t accept.”
Damn Straight…
You don’t find it odd that the only time they were willing to talk to reyes was when Reyes wasn’t interested in talking because he was busy playing and winning the Batting title?
Why didn’t they make the summer offer in October when they had the chance and reyes WAS willing to talk?
What happened to that deal you and Doanl so often cite as proof that Sandy was interested in Reyes?
What happened to that interest from July through October?
I am the third shooter behind the grassy knoll.
Stop being a moron. Jackie was the third shooter.
I thought it was Kramer57?
No no no, he was the body double for Oswald that Ruby shot.
Doesn’t anyone read my blog?
No, Reyes had plenty of time to talk in July when he was sitting around with a bad hammy, nt playing. Or the 2 months after that, when he was pretty much playing at half speed!
seriously though, who cares if Jose is playing or not? They aren’t even involved in the process. Agents meet and talke with GMs. The only time a player has to do anything is when those guys have negotiated down to an offer, and the agent needs them to say OK. And players talk to their agents on a regular basis anyway.
enough of this silly beaten to death discussion. Reyes #1 priority was getting the most money, no matter where he had to go. And Sandy was not desperately in love with him, or looking to build the team around him (or just didn’t have the money, another sotry there of course). And that is his job as a GM.
so he left. He is now on Miami, and the Mets are a playoff team right now. Time to move on.
And Sandy had plenty of time between the time he got hired and the season started BEFORE he became a Batting champ to sign him as well….So what is your point?
Sandy was NOT interested in making an offer in July because if he was why didn’t he make it in October then?
What happened to that July offer pray tell?
Sandy Alderson is a corporate business person who knows how to play hardball with the best of them. The strategies to take are formulated privately behind closed doors long before the first formal offer is put on the table by either side and both sides in turn are able to assess how long they can play cat and mouse with each other before one closes the window of opportunity to enter formal negotations – if one is interested in negotiating with the other in the first place.
Sandy is also fully aware of the messages his actions or inactions sends to the player’s agent whom I am sure is as equally shrewd and savy. Sandy no doubt knew the message he was sending to Jose’s agent was that the Mets made a business decision for Jose to look somewhere else. The statements made for public consumption reflected little of the corporate nature of the business.
that is a good thing, right?
Joey D. — So is Sandy wrong or just smarter than the Peter Greenberg’s of the world? Your characterization is the stuff Lefties use frequently. (P.S.: Remember Pelosi’s closing and locking doors when writing Obamacare? Later she said to her colleagues “We’ll have to pass the bill to know what’s in it.” So that’s what Sandy Alderson is doing in your mind?
Des,
Regarding Sandy’s decision not to resign Jose, as I wrote in an earlier post, my feelngs were:
“While some contest Jose fled to Miami, from all indications it seemed the front office was not keen in retaining him – a gutsy move considering the adverse fan reaction but from an objecitve viewpoint quite understandable considering his history of injury and that we had a Tejada waiting in the wings – and a Tejada who showed us he could hit major league pitching unlike his rookie year when he hit just .213.”
- I believe that answers your question whether or not I think he was wrong with his decision.
There is also nothing wrong by saying Sandy Alderson is a corporate business person who knows how to play hardball with the best of them. We were discussing multi-million dollar contract agreements are met andhow both sides must formulate strategies privately behind closed doors long before the first formal offer is put on the table. That includes each playing cat and mouse with the other and that I said each side was as equally as shrewd and savy of the other. If Sandy didn’t first the pros and cons of trying to re-sign Jose Reyes in both terms of finance and the effect it would have short and long term to the team on the field, then he wouldn’t be doing his job. Same with the preparation by Jose’s agent as far as how much and how lengthy a deal he could get for his client.
It is also best to be careful when it comes to characterization for sometimes it can send a false message about subjectivity when it comes to looking at things. The example you cite is indeed a bunch of bull but is also typical of the political double-talk practiced by both sides of the aisle. To infer such tactics are limited to one particular party or political wing only can raise questions about an individual’s general ability to look at things objectively – and in this forum, that can indeed be deadly.
Joey D. — Your original point was Sandy’s ” … strategies to take are formulated privately behind closed doors long before the first formal offer is put on the table by either side and both sides in turn are able to assess …. if one is interested in negotiating with the other in the first place.”
What you’re claiming is totally speculative. You offer no evidence. Sandy is on one side yet you claim his private formulation winds up being before he can assess the effect. Every interested party in a negotiation lays out ideas in their own mind before they are formally offered. Players’ agents formulate their views long before Sandy is notified. You imply, but probably didn’t intend, that Sandy is dealing in a nearly nefarious way. Yet it’s in Sandy’s interest to put forth offers which enable the team to be competitive and attractive within the financial constraints of his team. (P.S.: Every team has financial constraints which may be news to some of those who post on MMO.)
“Sandy no doubt knew the message he was sending to Jose’s agent was that the Mets made a business decision for Jose to look somewhere else.” Yet you offer no evidence, just your personal conclusions. But if it were the case, he’d join the 28 other teams which apparently concluded the same. Again, you’ve fallen into the trap of implying deeds which support a conclusion you’ve reached.
“The statements made for public consumption reflected little of the corporate nature of the business.” Your innuendo is unfortunate. It’s as if Sandy and Fred are playing a shell game. You are making an unsupportable claim. A fair minded person could just as easily make the same speculation about most or all agents who entice players to sign with them. For example, Scott Boras and many agents run sports corporations. Why are they cleaner than Sandy, to whom you’ve attributed questionable practices? I can tell you they probably are not.
In conclusion, Joey D, the tone and substance of your claims are to me arbitrary and just conjecture.
Des you absolutely nailed it. Joey often makes these claims about Alderson but never offers any evidence to back it up. Then he gets ticked off if you call him out. He has an agenda. He dislikes Alderson and hates anything to do with advance stats, sabermatrics or whatever you want to call it. I wish just once he would offer a link to back his claims.
OK,
I’m going against my principles of not being lured into a shouting match with personal remarks but here it goes.
Fonzie – you are nothing but a BS artist, liar and hypocrite by suggesting others have agendas but not your own self.
Des – you purposely left out certain words I said to twist my words around and imply I was talking specifically about Sandy Alderson – a typical ploy of a right winger simply bent on discrediting people.
Metsie and others, I’m sorry to say that I’ve had it with this group. There are other forums I participate in with people who disagree on things but are not the low-lifes that occupy this particular forum. Joe D, Clayton, etc. – this is no fault of yours.
Joey D. — You’re giving me too much credit. I didn’t purposely leave out anything. I haven’t analyzed the interchange yet (I will shortly). Why the sudden angst Joey? Why the right wing slur after acting as if those kinds of things were beneath you?
Again, I didn’t leave out anything purposely. You seem to be getting paranoid like a guy from Jersey.
P.S.: Cut the baloney. What was left out that would change the nature of our dialog? Be specific. I can tell you Joey, I was sincere. Are you, or are you doing something else because you were called out on what I felt was a one-sided attack. Reasonable people can differ in their opinions. Your reaction baffles me.
Joey don’t let them bully you into submission…
Just do what the rest of us do and play thier sorry act right back on them…
Be as stubborn as a pig and frustrate the hell out of them…
Why do you think they all hate it when I refuse to ever back down and just spew their own crap back at them!
Because the tactice they are using on you to get you to do what you are prepared to do is what they have used to ruin other sites.
And they will keep doing it as long as they feel it is effective!
It will never work with me and I give them 10 times back whatever they try to give me!
And you will notice than recently they only ever post in groups and then when they fail they all hide under the couch for a week like Cat who hurt himself!
Stick around and don’t let them bully you out.
Cause then the Terrorist will win! LOL
This is hilarious. Joey D what’s wrong you can’t handle the truth? How immature of you to call me exactly what you are. A bull shit artist that cries when he gets called out. No one is bullying you. Show your facts and you’ll stop getting called out.
And Metsie cut it out. I’m here every day, I don’t run or hide from anybody let alone you. Unless you mean the others you get into flame wars with on a daily basis. Cause I could care less if you back down or not. I don’t get frustrated with you, I find you utterly immature for somebody who claims to be 50 years old to act the way you do. Joey does nothing but try to pass his opinion and speculation as cold hard facts without any evidence to back his claim and whn he gets called out he’s too thin skinned to take it. Imagine if Bayonne ripped into him. God forbid, he’d need therapy.
Fonzie he has showed a ton of facts, the fact YOU ignore them doesn’t mean he hasn’t proved his case!
Sandy says he doesn’t know player evaluations has said it and admitted it quite often!
He manages a team of guys who make those evaluations and unless there is disagreement between his staff probably doesn’t make any decision other than to say good well get it done then!
You want to say Sandy knows something about Players and Evaluations show us one of his evaluations!
Show us where he said this guy has a hole in his swing or this guy has a problem with his mechanics…
Go ahead show us your proof!
Show any quote where Sandy has said anything about what a player is and has as opposed to his We want him to develop or we want him to play here here or there…
Sandy is not evaluating the talent at all! He is just telling us what his evaluators told him in a meeting!
Metsie now your getting into a totally different area. I never said Alderson scouts talent, evaluates players mechanics whether position players or pitchers. I said he makes the baseball decisions that both you guys claimed he doesn’t. You wenr as far as saying Eisenhardt was making them for Oakland when he wouldn’t know what a basbeall was if it hit him in the noggin.
The only thing I said in regards to player evaluations is what I took from Bill Guyton and Grady Fusons comments saying he showed them a new way of evaluating talent, what to look for when scouting them. I don’t think anyone is saying he goes from city to city to wacth players and make evaluations.
Notice when a player/players suck IE most of the bullpen acquisitions Joey says those are Sandy’s guys but when the guys he brought in do welll, he starts with just how much credit should go to Sandy and not his staff. Sandy just handles the business end, contracts, etc…
You can’t have it both ways. He runs the team the way the majority of the GM’s do. With input from the entire staff. The same Way Cashman does, Jon Daniels, Andrew Friedman, John Mozeliak, Josh Byrnes, Ben Cherrington, etc… No GM goes around evaluatin talent, Maybe occasionally Billy Beane does because he was a scout first. That’s the way it works.
Joey thinks Sandy came from Kazakstan and said “Vat is this baseball thing”? “I vill try to build baseball team”. That’s an agenda. He doesn’t like him, most don’t here at MMO, that’s fine just say so and stop beating around the bush. If you want to bash him for his bad moves, that’s fine, you can but at the same time you have to give him credit for the ones who have helped. You can’t say that’s because of his baseball people when they work out and him when they don’t. That’s agenda driven.
No Fonzie YOu said he was responsible for bulding the 1989 Oakland A’s when all the evidence showed he made ZERO personnel decisions and didn’t even pick the staff that helped to MAKE decisions!
All you showed was evidence of what someone said POST 1991 and then attributed it to the day Sandy got hired by the A’s!
All Joey has been getting at is that Sandy doesn’t really know baseball, doesn’t really know the players or what constitutes a skill or not, he merely manages the staff that does…
Post 1991 Sandy gets credit for anything a team he has managed has done. Not even Joey refutes that!
What Joey is saying now is that Sandy admits that he is not a major player in evaluations of ANYTHING and merely picks which of his staffs opinion is accepted!
I certainly did say he’s responsible for the A’s teams that won in 89 and won the AL flag 88-90 and another division title in 92. I posted the evidence that states his moves dating back to 1984. You say there’s evidence to the contrary then show it that says he didn’t make baseball decisions until 1992. Nothing you provided gave dates to when his decsion making began. You are the first and only person to have made that claim. The only thing Joey was correct about is that he was a baseball outsider and had no professional backround. All he ever did from a baseball standpoint was play 2B at an Ivy league school. He started out as the teams legal counsil in 81, learned what he could from the baseball people already in place and then was hired to be the GM in 83. There is no way any GM including Sandy is going to be a GM for 9 years and not make baseball decisions. It’s just your conjecture. There are a bunch of GM’s right now with no professional baseball backrounds. Sandy wasn’t the first, he won’t be the last.
I wonder if you go to other fan sites and read a post about the team that has struggled for the last 3.5 years is looking into possibly extending their only remaining homegrown star player… does it turn into a 99 comment flame war about prior guys not being signed or former GMs vs. Current GMs or does everybody just said “Good, I hope this works out.”
Most sites I assume have similar-type flame wars.
The bottom line to me is that Wright is our Chipper/Jeter/etc. He’s that guy who can be the face of the team until he retires. He’s a leader on and off the field and barring an ugly scenario (aka Wright wants to test free agency, a team offers him a $180MM deal) he SHOULD stay with the Mets for the foreseeable future.
It’s fun to talk about the money, but it shouldn’t be the end-all be-all for us fans to discuss. Do we want Wright on the team in two years? Yes. End of story, for now.
Yes Prismo but by the same token there were many who felt that applied to reyes as well and given his performance was as justifiable (if not moreso) than the evidence supporting Wright.
I personally would have kept both and the only argument given for not doing that has to do with Accountancy not baseball!
They cry about spending Wilpons money!
Metsie — Apparently you haven’t concluded that the business of baseball is the prime mover. It is. Certainly there is more evidence for it than there is for the sport of baseball runs the business of baseball.
And pray tell what does that have to do with how fans feel about someone being signed or not?
The Business of Baseball is Wilpon’s problem!
Not the Fans! If the fans are so concerned about money then stop wasting time on a Blog complaining about who is worth paying what and go buy some damn tickets so we can sign anyone without fear of how much steak the Wilpons get to eat per week!
Metsie — Let’s put together what you said:
“I personally would have kept both and the only argument given for not doing that has to do with Accountancy not baseball!
They cry about spending Wilpons money!!”
If you don’t give a hoot about the money involved, congratulations. But it’s a key part of the game, as you well know. Consider what the Yankees do vs. what most small market or even what the Mets do. Condescension doesn’t really provide a legitimate answer. Every service and product has a stated or implied price tag. To ignore it misses the point in my view.
Again, are you saying the devil be damned with Wilpon’s money?
Oh please Des it has nothing to do with the GAME!
How much were we alloted to spend per inning this game?
How many runs did we score due to the fact we spent less money or have a lower payroll than the Philly we played today?
If what we spent is a key part of the game this is the part….
Those Beans you guys been counting and worrying about Saving cost us the game!
Becuase we cheaped out on Bullpen that couldn’t hold the tie long enough to allow those extra three runs we got to win the game for us!
Thats was the INTEGRAL ASPECT spending had in this particular game…and a few others we have had as well!
Hey Des I have to ask you….
Do you care that Warner Brothers might be having financial difficulty and go see a low budget stinker of a movie of theirs anyway since in Movies as in Baseball Money is the key and we shouldn’t care when the WB cheaps out and gives you an inferior product?
Baseball is an entertainment industry!
How well it entertains is what dictates it’s success not what they spent to get there!
And if spending less means inferior product then I don’t feel any obligation to take thier finances into account when I write my review of that product!
Metsie — I’d really like you to give it up. The Last Man Standing approach doesn’t clarify anything. It just muddies the waters by cantilevering folks from the bedrock of reality into pure speculation. I’ve always (at least from when I went to high school) known that the Rickey’s and Toppings produced excellent teams because they knew how to run a business and they had someone to help them assess talent. If you want to keep going, just do so. It’s really taking the differing views into the world of silliness.
No I suggest you give it up Des….
Your on my 5 day shitlist for starting the insults you claim shouldn’t happen here last night!
As for the rest of it they produced good teams not because of how much they spent but on the baseball players they spent it on!
And that will ALWAYS be the case!
Just as Hamlet with a major star will always be a better product and make more money than starring the schmucks they get cheaply to do it in the park!
You don’t want to accept that fine but I’m not going to stop telling the truth just because you guys want to feel good about a guy who has done and won nothing yet all due to his cheapness and bean counting in a job that’s main goal is to create a team that can win games on a abaseball diamond!
And if your argument had any validity then why have the Pirates who have been all about the Beans not won anything since Barry Bonds left?
Metsie — You’re on MMO day and night yet you concluded that the flames started last night. WRONG
Some of the folks you think you’re defending go on the chat box and slander those who aren’t there but who disagree with them. In essence it started some time ago. You apparently think you caught the beginning of a heated confrontation. Truth is, you missed the first few rounds. I have never gone chatting because of the immature mud slinging that goes on there.
You think being stubborn as a pig is a positive trait. It isn’t. It’s boring. You keep repeating yourself as if you’ve forgotten that you said it before. It’s childish and for a smart 50 years old person, it’s surprisingly immature.
Well Des I suggest you keep your Chatbox insulting to the chatbox!
As for what happened last night there were no insults in the commentary until you and Russel started with them!
You can talk about history all you want but the truth if you choose complain about stones being thrown don’t live in the Glass house!
He was being civil in that thread and you turned it into crap with your comments!
I don’t really care who shot first or second I only care about who is shooting and if you choose to shoot you have absoloutly NO RIGHT to ever complain about the crossfire!
If you don’t understand that well then feel free to insult whoever and whenever you want.
And I will call you Hypocrite when you complain!
Or turns into an article a week and 100,000 Excuses for why we shouldn’t resign him based on how badly signing big contracts under the previous GM turned out…
Your as guilty of starting this war as anyone!
You started by blaming Omar and Big Contracts for our lack of success and decided Moneyball was the way to go…We were after all SO FAR AWAY with SO MANY HOLES to fill because of how bad a GM Omar was!
You started this and your distaste for the conversation is merely due to your lack of discomfort over your opinions that have turned out so horribly and exposed you as the know nothing you think everyone but you are!
Oh again you’re telling me what I say and think?
I think Jose Reyes is gone because he didn’t want to be here and Sandy Alderson didn’t feel he was a player worth committing 6 years $100mil to partially because he felt Ruben Tejada can play SS.
I think David Wright is carrying the Mets and needs to remain a Met because they are on the brink of either being a competitive team or sliding into a dark era, and they have nobody that can truly fill in at 3B without creating another hole on the team.
That’s what I think. I think David Wright is your last hope to have a lifetime Met, and no matter what happened to Tom Seaver, Dwight Gooden, or Jose Reyes… this is the situation they are in now, and David Wright is the face of this franchise.
That is what I think. I think you don’t go out and spend money just to spend money. If David Wright says he wants a contract that far exceeds his value, then adios David Wright. I want what is best for the franchise, not what is best for Jose Reyes or David Wright. If what is best for them winds up being best for the franchise, then beautiful.
If not, then let David go hit .250 in a new ballpark with one of the worst fan bases in sports.
And Even if he did want to be here (mind ou have no proof of your beliefs it’s just a way of blaming Reyes for you and Sandy’s actions) you were the main guy making the case to not resign him!
And who was carrying the team Last year and through 2006-2008?
Who was the guy who made it all go!
As for me telling you what you think I don’t have to…It’s all posted up in the archives for everyone to see!
I know that bothers you but as far as I’m concerned thats a personal problem of yours.
You don’t get a contract for 2006-2008 in the winter of 2011. Not unless you’ve won a team titles in the past like a Jeter type.
Carrying a team to 77 wins isn’t exactly impressive…
But without making backhanded remarks… I never said not to resign Reyes. Ever.
I said I don’t wanna see him get 6 years 100+. That’s what I said. Not “I don’t want Reyes.”
Actually it’s quite impressive when the rest of your lineup consists of guys like
LoDuca
Valentin
Cliff Floyd
and Xavier Nady!
They had 97 Wins that year! reyes was second only to Beltran in RS!
How many wins did they have the year Reyes was not there?
70!
Who was your leading score the year they won 77?
Make all the excuses you want jessup it’s just more crap you will get called out on later on when you play the Who Me? game and accuse others of putting words in your mouth that actually came right from your mouth to keyboard to ISP to MMO!
I will throw this down here. Back to my point yesterday before I had to leave. Reyes knew of the Marlins interest before the deadline.
“Reyes said he was heavily swayed by the hard-court press from the Marlins from the get-go. The minute Miami officials were eligible to meet with Reyes, they did so. Team owner Jeffrey Loria and other Marlins executives met with Reyes and his agents at the Hotel Carlyle on the Upper East Side of Manhattan at 12:01 a.m. on Nov. 3 — the minute they were eligible to talk.
Loria had the new Marlins jersey tucked under his overcoat, but could not officially present it to Reyes because it was not set to be introduced until the following week.
“Those guys flying from Miami to here at 12:01, that showed me something — that showed me like they really want me here,” Reyes said
So I am guessing Reyes just happen to be in the hotel at 12:01. Hey maybe they called him at 12:00:01 to make sure he was going to be there?
From the same report:
“The Mets never submitted a formal bid for Reyes, although they did talk parameters with Reyes’ agent, Peter Greenberg. Greenberg said Mets general manager Sandy Alderson was sincere in his approach.”
“I told Sandy, ‘We’re getting pretty close to getting something done. We may not get to the winter meetings,’” Greenberg said. “So he went back to his owners and came back with the parameters of something they would be able to accomplish, that they would be able to do. “
I knew I had read somewhere that they actually met with Reyes at 12:01, not just a ‘phone call’, as some have stated.
Certainly sounds to me like Reyes had to know about their interest before the deadline.
Of course he did and anything short of them giving out actual contract terms would be impossible to prove evidence of tampering. Besides, what team wants to turn another one in on that unless they are SURE it will lead to something? If you do you better watch your own back.
Well, they did have to call him prior to midnight to set up the meeting right? Oh the Conspiracy Theories…
I notice you didn’t post the source to that….One wonders why?
Here is another report WITH source cited…
“The Marlins reportedly contacted Reyes one minute into the free-agent signing period, and a group of Marlins executives went to New York this week seemingly to visit Reyes’ agent, ”
http://www.nesn.com/2011/11/report-marlins-contacted-jose-reyes-interested-in-albert-pujols-prince-fielder.html
So if you guys think you have Proof I’m going to call out Sandy for not pressing the Tampering issues and getting more picks out of it. If Omar did such a thing you would all have crucified him for leaving kids on the table!
Adam Rubin.
http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/7327101/miami-marlins-jose-reyes-new-york-mets-put-offer-table
Ok if thats true and they had to have contacted him before hand then Why hasn’t Sandy tried to press to get extra picks out of them?
Is he dropping the ball on doing whats best for this team?
Or was he just glad he didn’t have to make an offer to Reyes?
Prove they tampered. You better be sure your case is lock solid and make sure to watch your back for the rest of the time.
All we know for sure is they met at 12:01 according to Rubin. They can “speak” to each other as much as they want as long as no contract info is discussed.
“Hey Jose, I was thinking of a late dinner at 12:01 on November 3rd as long as you aren’t busy…”‘
That’s all they would have to say to kill the case. Again, all teams do this so it’s not hard to fathom.
Besides, you don’t think agents are trying to build a market for their client before they become FA?
You just did apparently…No way they could arrange a meeting with Jose at 12:01 without talking to either him or his agent to set up a meeting now could they?
SO if that can’t prove it either the report is false and never happened or it was just a phone call at 12:01 and the meeting happened after that!
And sure Agents do a lot of unscrupulous things…
Why? Apparently because guys like Sandy was way more interested in getting rid of Reyes than he was about getting full value back from his leaving!
If he was interested in Keeping reyes he would have either filed a protest and got more picks or made an offer before that time!
I do find it odd that you claim to show proof Reyes knew before he should have that he was going to be a Marlin but then say you can’t prove Tampering…
Well Which is it? Either you proved they tampered or you didn’t?
Please pick one before we proceed any further!
I am not playing these games with you Metsie. I gave you the quote. Now go find another bone to chew on. Just keep in mind that while you always try to make things black and white, most things are a bunch of different shades of gray.
You most certainly ARE playing Games!!!!!
You say you have proof that the Marlins Tampered but say Tampering can’t be proved….
So which is it pal?
One or the other?
Again do you not realize that most of life is in a gray area? All teams tamper to an extent. You don’t think Reyes’ agent spoke with the Mets, Tigers, RedSox, Marlins… until after the deadline? Come on be serious. Besides, lets define tampering:
“there shall be no negotiations or dealings respecting employment, either present or prospective, between any player, coach or manager and any club other than the club with which [the player] is under contract or acceptance of terms,” which in English means that a team is not allowed to discuss employment with a player while he is under contract with another team. ”
Calling a player to setup dinner? That’s not tampering. No negotiations or dealings would occur in a call to setup a meeting the minute the deadline expired. Again, so even if Sandy thought they were tampering how could you prove they discussed any contract terms before that time?
If it is Grey then it isn’t proof now is it?
Either you think it is proof or it is not…
grey area would be for the MLB and the Commissioner to decide.
If you think that does not meet the requirements for PROOF then you can’t also say it is proof in your argument…
If there is a GREY area then there is no evidence to support your side here and your proof is worthless…
If it isn’t worthless then Sandy is dropping the ball and we will add it to his list of screwups we complain about!
Ball is in your court!
Do you stand by your evidence or say it’s weak?
If it’s weak then you have proved nothing as not even YOU believe your evidence and if it’s Strong Sandy should be using it to make his case and get next year’s picks as well!
Because if he got them then losing Reyes might actually become worth it!
4 Picks and next year’s 1st and second rounders is a lot better than what he is getting in return now!
Final comment from me, have fun after this.
I never said they tampered. You did.
“I will throw this down here. Back to my point yesterday before I had to leave. Reyes knew of the Marlins interest before the deadline.”
Knowing of their interest is NOT tampering as defined by the rules.
trs: You’re arguing with somebody who just recently said they were a better baseball scout than pro scouts and who is presented with actual writing from pro baseball as to how they calculate average attendance (per gate because 1 person doesn’t count twice or as a half person) and then says it’s wrong.
You’d have better luck getting animals to speak english than to get a valid point across.
No jessup I said I maybe a better scout than some Baseball scouts….
Since you are the Who Me? Poster boy complaining about putting words in people’s mouth I thought I should clarify!
You of course think you KNOW about Talent hence the Sandy’s Good Day post that has become Terry’s BAD Nightmare!
Well TRS all I can say is if Reyes knew they had intentions then they tampered!
SO if you think you have proof that he knew in advance Sandy should take action and if he doesn’t then EPIC BLUNDER AND FAIL!
Knowing of their interest is NOT tampering as defined by the rules.
Seems as though I have said this.
Then show us where in the rules it is possible to let the player know in advance of thier plans without breaking them….
Please tell us the scenario and requirements for letting a player know your interested before the rules say you can tell him your interested!
Post the actual Loophole you claim is being used!
If OJ can get away with it, I’m sure the Marlins can as well.