Is Mets Home-Grown Talent Overrated?

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• Metstheory22 May 2, 2012 at 1:19 pm

  I guess he would not have given the 69 Mets a chance with their starting lineup either.
  • Tommy2cat May 3, 2012 at 5:08 am

    Here’s my take, FWIW:

    The team offense is compromised, first, because too many hitters bat from the left side. It’s currently an organizational issue as most of our near ML ready prospects also hit from the left side. Houston aptly demonstrated our vulnerability to lefty pitching.

    The solution would be to import via trade and draft right-handed hitters and to employ platoons during the interim to balance the line-up and reduce our susceptibility. Jason Bay, nice guy and all, has been a total flop offensively – an enormous amount of cash simply pouring down the drain. Defensively, he’s more than carried his weight.

    Prospects are available from other organizations and we really need to get creative on this front. If Johan continues to pitch well, jettison him for talent ASAP. A package that would include Murphy, Familia and another enticing prospect could be directed toward a need. I really like Daniel Murphy and I bet a lot of American League teams do, too, especially considering his value as a DH.

    (I’m thinking of that Toronto outfield prospect Jake Marisnick…

    http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=545350

    … or someone of that sort)

    If we’re in for the long haul, then we have to start thinking this way.

    I’m extremely pissed-off that we let Jose Reyes walk when we knew or should have known that we didn’t have the capacity to re-sign him. He could’ve yielded more than Beltran – someone such as the Giant’s Gary Brown or the Jay’s Marisnick. To allow him to walk for a compensatory pick in the draft is totally inexcusable.

    The reduction in our team speed has made us much more a station-to-station team without the uber-power to compensate for the lack of baserunning prowess. Not so good.

    Pitching – Sandy absolutely improved the bullpen, although the jury’s still out. Our rotation has been more than serviceable, although Big Pelf’s absence is now being felt loud and clear and exposes our lack of depth. Chris Schwinden (aka “South Park”) clearly is not the answer. That Dude is going to get whiplash from watching those line drives and homeruns whiz past his big, fat coconut.

    No doubt this team needs to be tweaked and there is now NO WAY EVER to entice Baltimore to trade Adam Jones, who is the prototypical ballplayer that would suit our current need.

    As much as I hate admitting this, at best we are a .500 ballclub.

    Tommy2cat over and out.
    • Tommy2cat May 3, 2012 at 5:22 am

      Oh yeah – I’m cool with Thole. He’s a gamer with acceptable limitations, but the team needs a worthy platoon and Nickeas is a far cry from the answer.

      Captain Kirk should be roaming centerfield. Torres would be less affected by a position switch, in my opinion. This team needs a prodigious right-handed hitting outfielder in t he worst way. Adam Jones, Andrew McCutcheon, someone, anyone with moxie, …Please!!!

      The infield corners are fine. David is back to being himself, thank God, and Ike appears to be pulling out of that slump, which is perfectly excusable after a very long absence. He’s hitting and appears happier. Duda was hitting, as well. We just need to integrate Turner with Murphy at 2nd base to balance the line-up and improve our bench.

      Baxter and Hairston (aka “Gummy Bear”) are good bench players but, again, Nickeas is useless, in a baseball sense. He looks like a nice guy, but GTFOTF.

      During the interim, May looked very good in spring training, although his stats didn’t reflect what I thought I saw from him – if that makes any sense. Vinny Rottino actually showed spark, as well. We have to think along these lines, currently, until a better longterm solution emerges.

      Man, this feels like purgatory.
• Hodges14 May 2, 2012 at 1:26 pm

  I think this guy is running a very high Mets fever, lol. Someone needs to take him to an emergency room. They sure did some job dressing every single one these kids down.
• Hellobrooklyn May 2, 2012 at 1:32 pm

  As a fan, if you can’t get excited about home grown players ,then what do you get excited about ? ask the Yankees how easy it is to buy a championship. Regardless of what Seth feels long term about these players becoming stars I agree with you Joe that several of our guys will become decent major leaguers . Kirk will be a really good outfielder . Murphy is a .300 hitter . Ika Davis and Duda are good for at least 20 hrs . Tejada is a very good infielder This is a good start to what can eventually be a really good team
  • stick May 2, 2012 at 1:35 pm

    it is also way easier to fill in a gap (get the missing piece) if you already have a solid foundation of good regulars and role players, that don’t make a ton of money. That is when you can add a key FA (like a beltran at the time), within budget constraints, and actually push the team to the next level.
• stick May 2, 2012 at 1:32 pm

  can’t get to the full article from here, but from the snippets you posted above, he definitely seems to be taking the debbie downer role (to steal a concept from Toby Hyde).

  I would agree with what I think is the gist of it, that at this point, there are some interesting guys but not ones that you can point to as being can’t-miss ASG fixtures. Not that they won’t, or don’t have enough talent and potential, just that they haven’t shown enough yet.

  Duda, I am still very high on him. He is still IMO growing into his talent, and getting comfrortable with what he can do (the confidence factor). But, i could see him as a LT option in LF.

  tejada? hard to say. I’m not sold that his O will really take a big jump forward. He will never be a speed guy, so can he add enough power to make his hitting a plus? At this point, he is relatively castilllo-esque. I do think that if the team had a little differnet mix of player, he would not be at the top, but could be a dynamite guy at the bottom of the order, just doing his thing.

  thole? Kind of harsh. he has been hitting fine, and D is at least marginally improving. Still looks more like a stop gap or potential BU, but they are enamored with him because catching in the system is non-existant, and the FA options all pretty much are marginal back-ups. So until they can find a “real” catcher to replace him, he is the best option.

  Kirk, way too early, but lots to like about him. not sure he ever develops enough to be a regular vs. LHP, but again, a guy doesn’t have to be a star to be very valuable. If he ended up platooning with a similar RH batter, as a pair they could do some serious damage.

  anyway, I would say no, not overrate, only because I don’t really think any of these guys are being rated as stars at this point anyway!
• Alex68 May 2, 2012 at 1:33 pm

  Before most of you go crazy, shapiro is another jesseP, Here’s hos he descirbed himself:
  I am a late 20′s die hard Mets fan who went to my first game when i was 4 years old. That game just so happens to be one of the most remembered game in Mets history, Game 6 of the 1986 World Series.
  The guy has no idea what he is talking about, he’s obviuosly HATING on the mets core of young players now… Interesting that i find the guy is into SABERMETRICS, also, none of the players were mentioned in BA top 100… Coincidence????? think not.. This guy is just another Dussss that likes numbers, Baseball america prospects and sandy alderson… His article is just that, CRAP..
  • Lisa P. May 2, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    Wait, you’re telling US not to go crazy?
  • Alex68 May 2, 2012 at 1:43 pm

    Lisa, if you can’t swim with the sharks, don’t jump in the ocean…
    • Donal May 2, 2012 at 3:47 pm

      What? Can you please explain how that silly little cliche is applicable here?

      Or are you just trying to to puff up and look macho for the girl?
  • trs86 May 2, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    Come on this guys’ hate has nothing to do with someone liking stats or using them as a tool or BA as a tool in the belt. This guy is just a different version of you it seems You can’t see the forest for the trees and this one already ran into the tree trying to get out of the forest. 8)
  • jessep May 2, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    He’s another one of me?

    So he’s awesome?
  • Joe D May 2, 2012 at 2:18 pm

    Alex, the purpose of this feature is not to rip into other die-hard Mets fans. And believe me, Seth is a die-hard met fan. I like to use this to present hard stances or not the usual mainstream opinions, so we can consider them and debate them in an appropriate manner. You dont know Seth personally and for all you know he could be someone just like you or a friend of yours. The one thing we do know about him is that he loves the Mets like you do, and maybe more because he spends a great deal of his time devoted to passionately writing about them. That tells me more about Seth than anything else.
    • Alex68 May 2, 2012 at 2:26 pm

      Joe D, thing is, this article is written to knock on everyone except ike davis i think.. Then, of course, i see how none of the ones he foremention were highly touted? is he being objective or is he being a BA fan while writing this article? he literally sh**** on josh thole, while i am not saying josh thole is joe mauer, he is hitting over 300 with a 400 OBP, for a guy like him who likes numbers i am surprised on the knock for thole.. He should learn about the game and base it on BASEBALL AMERICA prospects and how they’re viewed.. Another jesseP, maybe less duchsery…. Trust me, i thank god for not having friends like that..
  • Even Flow May 2, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    Wait a minute.YOU of all people have the nerve to say someone else don’t know what they’re talking about? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
• XtreemIcon May 2, 2012 at 1:53 pm

  Well, overrated by whom? By Mets fans? Or by baseball in general? I agree with his thesis when it comes to Mets fans, although I think he underrates the players himself. Some Mets fans think this 25-game start is the dawning of a new day because the kids are playing “great”, when in reality, it doesn’t seem much different. Two games over .500, losing to the Astros, beating good teams when they were playing poorly. It’s the mark of an average team. This guy underrates them, but he’s not wrong when he says they’re overrated by some.
  • trs86 May 2, 2012 at 1:56 pm

    Of course Mets fans overrate their own players and prospects. That is why they are Mets fans.
    • XtreemIcon May 2, 2012 at 2:00 pm

      Sure. I’m not saying it’s WRONG to feel that way, but it’s also not wrong to step back and realize that if Kirk played the same CF for the Blue Jays or Cards, Mets fans wouldn’t even know who he was. If he was playing “great,” there’d be some sort of national attention, right?
      • trs86 May 2, 2012 at 2:03 pm

        I don’t think that is true at all. I don’t think most rookies get “national” attention most of the time. However, he has a great case of winning NL Rookie of the month so perhaps more attention will be gained. I know I have seen some of his highlights on MLBTV so there’s that. I think it also has to do with the fact the Mets are supposed to stink and even still aren’t THAT big of a story.
• steve May 2, 2012 at 2:11 pm

  The reason for the optimism is the 4 minor league teams combined records are the best in baseball. The major league team which is mostly made up of home-grown players is above 500.When this team is ready to contend money will be there and propects will be traded to augment the home-grown players.
• jessep May 2, 2012 at 2:23 pm

  The one thing I will say is Alex is right about one thing. Seth & myself wrote similar articles in the past week.

  I think I’m more excited about the young players on the Mets BUT it seemed like when they had that all homegrown lineup everybody acted like GWB on the ship with a “mission accomplished!” sign.

  Many of these young players have a TON to prove. You can play well for a month, and then we’ll never hear from you again. Right now, Ike Davis, I’m sorry but you’ve got a ton to prove now.

  Before the season started there were people acting like Ike was the #2 1B in the NL behind Votto after Pujols and Fielder left. Right now, Ike doesn’t look like a guy who can lead the Mets.

  They all have a lot to prove. The one player who is “young” that I feel most comfortable with is Tejada. Everybody else, I gotta see more before I jump up and down.
  • Alex68 May 2, 2012 at 2:32 pm

    JesseP. I get it.. That is why they are called predictions, people predict but that is just what it is, prediction.. It’s not a guarantee it will happen.. I think ike has the potential to hit 25+ hr, others even higher, he’s proving us wrogn for now, but it’s a long season.. I am surprised how well tejada has handle the SS, i sure thought he’d struggle to replce reyes, but the kid has come into his own.. Aren’t you proud of that? as a mets fans i sure am… Look at Kirk, Come on, aren’t you happy this kid is being a good player for us? Don’t project too much itno BA and all those others, it means absolutely SGH**
    • jessep May 2, 2012 at 2:43 pm

      I didn’t mention BA (I assume you mean Baseball America).

      What I am saying, and what I believe Seth is saying is that young players flame out. A lot of people acted like the Mets solved everything over a week ago with an all homegrown lineup.

      Sure, I’d love to say Kirk will be the CF for the next 7 years, but he’s had less than 100 plate appearances against big league pitching.

      This is why a young players biggest and most revealing year to me is year #3. (Obviously this is not for every player but in a general conversation sense)

      Year 1 they can sneak up on the league.
      Year 2 the league catches up to a lot of them, and shuts them down

      It’s what they do between Year 2 and 3 that will prove whether they will be a quality big league player in my eyes. Because the league has seen them, they’ve seen how the league adjusts to them, now lets see if they figured it all out.

      In 2014, you will know more about Kirk than you will know today.

      Right now, we’re seeing a bit more from Duda that maybe this will be a year he fails to meet expectations. But next year is the big year for him in my view.
  • Vinny B May 2, 2012 at 9:09 pm

    Well, of course they all have a lot to prove. Most of these guys are in either their 1st or 2nd full year starting. So, of course they have a lot to prove, just like every young player in the majors.

    Your also assuming that we are just excited about players like Kirk just because of a “hot” start to the season. That’s not true, many of us have been talking about these players long before this year.
• Joey D. May 2, 2012 at 2:32 pm

  If he is indeed into sabermetrics, then I do question his knowledge of the game as I would anyone else involved so heavily into that stuff.

  Will again bring up Brian Kenny when he lectured Al Leiter on the importance of implementing unorthodox fielding shifts on more players based on their saber charts. Al just shook his head in frustration as Kenny was finishing up his remarks, then saying pitching to shifts would mess up a pitcher’s game.

  That’s why we were led to believe that a computer programmer was responsible for the success of the 2002 Oakland club and that Sandy, with no admitted professional experience behind him, was able to mold winning ball clubs a little over a decade before.

  Projections based on advanced statistical analysis in general is useless because baseball is all about mechanics and abilities that cannot be measured. I trust more on a person’s analysis based on his eyes and instincts over one who goes by a computer curve any day.

  Remember how sabers predicted a decent career for Lastings Mlledge based on curves and progression compared to other minor leaguers? By keeping themselves in front of a computer monitor they never took into account that Lastings was too arrogant to learn and that’s why the Mets and other teams gave up on him so early and that he is now playing in Japan. Same with Jason Bay predicted to hit 28 or so home runs in 2010. Forget about Citi Field’s dimensions – sabers didn’t take into account the mind play it would have on him as it did David, Beltran and others before him.

  Advanced analysis has been around for a long, long time. It was just done by baseball people based on their own knowledge which is something the new generation of sabers tends not to acknowledge.

  Brian Kenny once said that Jeff Bagwell was the fifth greatest first baseman in the history of the game. Let’s put aside the innuendo about steroids and admit that he put up great numbers – but fifth all time? That’s what the saber stats showed.
  • trs86 May 2, 2012 at 2:35 pm

    Good god, same ole mess everyday. There is nothing wrong with using stats, eyes, saber, traditional, scouts, video or any of those tools when designing a plan in baseball. Failure to use even one of those things most likely will lead to a poor result unless you just happen to be lucky. There is always some kind of witch hunt here.
  • XtreemIcon May 2, 2012 at 2:46 pm

    Joey, there’s a lot wrong with what you said. I’m not talking about your opinions, you have a right to those, but factually wrong. Like a computer programmer. Who was a computer programmer? Billy Beane was/is a baseball lifer and Alderson used to be a lawyer. Was there someone else involved with the decision making we’re not aware of?

    Can you provide a link of any sabermetric projections of Lastings Milledge? Any at all?

    Also you have it backwards, people with knowledge of advanced statistics dreaded the Bay signing, advocated against it hoped it would never happen. Those interested only in RBI and such thought it was a good deal and use the excuse “who could have predicted such a drop.” I’ll speak for no one else but myself when I said that I did, and I also had many conversations with many other people who considered themselves statistically-inclined who thought the same thing, but I won’t speak for them.

    And as far as the saber stats showing Bagwell was the 5th best 1B of all time, can you prove he’s not? You have some empirical data that shows he wasn’t? Or is your opinion more valid than Brian Kenny, a guy who’s paid to do what he does?
    • jessep May 2, 2012 at 3:18 pm

      You didn’t know that Billy Beane spent his days programming computers and his nights playing baseball in the Mets farm system? Jeez.
      • XtreemIcon May 2, 2012 at 3:21 pm

        Must have missed that chapter when I memorized his wiki page.
        • jessep May 2, 2012 at 3:24 pm

          I recite his entire page every night from memory before I go to sleep.
          • Metsie May 2, 2012 at 10:26 pm

            the Pray to him right after! He is afterall a God to you!
  • Fonzie13 May 2, 2012 at 3:15 pm

    The same guy who thought the Mets were actually in a race and would not have traded a player in the last 2 months of his contract for a top prospect. We’re supposed to trust those eyes. Ex if you’re asking Joey to provide links to back his claim don’t hold your breath He’ll provide a link to something that has nothing to do with his original point and his original point will be split into 3 parts like an ameba. Same old tiring rambling every day is getting old in a hurry. Get ready for a 900 word rebuttal.
  • Donal May 2, 2012 at 4:37 pm

    “If he is indeed into sabermetrics, then I do question his knowledge of the game as I would anyone else involved so heavily into that stuff.”

    That is such a condescending and rpetentious statemnt. And I don’t care what kind of salutations you cover them in, you do that a lot.

    “Will again bring up Brian Kenny when he lectured Al Leiter on the importance of implementing unorthodox fielding shifts on more players based on their saber charts. Al just shook his head in frustration as Kenny was finishing up his remarks, then saying pitching to shifts would mess up a pitcher’s game. ”

    1) Spray charts aren’t really sabermetric. They’ve been around for a while

    2) Here’s the big question: Who was right?

    “That’s why we were led to believe that a computer programmer was responsible for the success of the 2002 Oakland club and that Sandy, with no admitted professional experience behind him, was able to mold winning ball clubs a little over a decade before. ”

    No, stop lying. that never happened. Name the programmer.

    “Projections based on advanced statistical analysis in general is useless because baseball is all about mechanics and abilities that cannot be measured. I trust more on a person’s analysis based on his eyes and instincts over one who goes by a computer curve any day.”

    Which is why you are commenting on a message board with a bunch of guys who use “saber stats”.

    “Remember how sabers predicted a decent career for Lastings Mlledge based on curves and progression compared to other minor leaguers?”

    Ya, Steve Phillips and Omar Minaya were huge sabermetric proponents. All of that was based on sabermetrics, because everyone knwos yo usue advanced stats to project for guys who aren’t playing major league ball. Yes sirree bob.

    “By keeping themselves in front of a computer monitor they never took into account that Lastings was too arrogant to learn and that’s why the Mets and other teams gave up on him so early and that he is now playing in Japan.”

    Wow, you are just flat out insulting people now.

    Can you at least be original about it? Don’t resort to the same, tired, unthinking cliches regurgitated by so many other autons. ” keeping themselves in front of a computer monitor” I’m surprised you didn’t mention how they all live in their parents’ basements.

    Do you think mentioning “computers” is going to be some magic buzzword to make you right? That somehow it will scare people into agreeing with you rather than making you seem out of touch and hypocritical (you are using one right now after all)?

    ” Same with Jason Bay predicted to hit 28 or so home runs in 2010. Forget about Citi Field’s dimensions – sabers didn’t take into account the mind play it would have on him as it did David, Beltran and others before him.”

    Ya, because age, park factors and periferral numbers don’t play any role at all in sabermetrics. Nope, none at all. The driving force behind singing Bay certainly wasn’t “him score so much RBI”.

    “Advanced analysis has been around for a long, long time.”

    Hey, the first correct thing you’ve said.

    ” It was just done by baseball people based on their own knowledge which is something the new generation of sabers tends not to acknowledge.”

    Ya, Henry Chadwick drew on his decades of baseball experience when he came up with batting average. He certainly wan’t an English statistician more sued to cricket s he used their system to express baseball production.

    “Brian Kenny once said that Jeff Bagwell was the fifth greatest first baseman in the history of the game. Let’s put aside the innuendo about steroids and admit that he put up great numbers – but fifth all time? That’s what the saber stats showed.”

    So? Do you have a problem because he used bad methodolgy or ebcause your preconceived notion is challenged?

    In your case, like so many others, it seems the latter.
• Alex68 May 2, 2012 at 2:33 pm

  Brian Kenny once said that Jeff Bagwell was the fifth greatest first baseman in the history of the game. Let’s put aside the innuendo about steroids and admit that he put up great numbers – but fifth all time? That’s what the saber stats showed”

  ENOUGH SAID….
  • trs86 May 2, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Thing is how do you put steroids aside? The reason that he is not at the top of the ranks is because of steroids. The guy did put up some incredible numbers, for about a 7 year stretch he put up numbers matching or exceeding all-time greats. Averaged over .300 BA, 40 HR and 120 RBI during that time. Certainly that puts you among the elite. Once you get to that level, where you rank a player becomes subjective. If you could put roids aside where would you rank him?
    • Alex68 May 2, 2012 at 2:59 pm

      In no order TRS86 here’s some names i’d throw at you:

      Harmon Killebrew
      Jim Thome (based on longevity and Hr’s)
      Eddie Murray
      Hank Greenberg
      Willie McCovey
      Johnny Mize
      Albert Pujols
      Jimmie Foxx
      Lou Gehrig
      Frank Thomas

      People knock on palmeiro, but prior to being BUSTED for using steroids, palmeiro had a greater career as well, ohhh, and btw, in the playoffs in more than 130 PA this guy hit 2 hr’s.. TWO!!!! and had only 13 RBI’s.. A no show every time houston was in the playoffs… 4X all star is also not that great of job… IMO, he used steroids and that uis why people started to be suspect on him after that 1995 season..
      • jessep May 2, 2012 at 3:16 pm

        Thomas was great but he really stopped being a 1B in 1998. So that’s 8 years of a career spent primarily at 1B. Not apples to apples

        Thome didn’t play 1B until he was 26. He had played 500 games in MLB before that.

        Then he played 8 seasons at 1B with at least 100 games.

        I’m not saying he wasn’t great. I’m saying when talking about “all time first basemen,” I’m taking a guy who has the numbers and played in the same spot for 15 years with no DH luxury over two guys who spent half as long playing the position because they later became better DH’s.
      • XtreemIcon May 2, 2012 at 3:17 pm

        Killebrew made less than half his career starts at 1B, he doesn’t count. Same with Frank Thomas. So of the 8 guys Bagwell can be legitimately compared to, he’s better than Murray, much better than Thome, hit 27 points better than Stretch, 34 points better OBP, stole 10x more bases, made 100 fewer errors than Stretch and had almost the same amount of RBI in seven fewer seasons and only 72 fewer homers. I’d say better than him. Greenberg’s a tough one because he lost a lot to the war but I’ll give you him, and Pujols career isn’t over yet but I’ll give you him, too.

        So who’s better than Bagwell? Greenberg, Mize, Pujols, Foxx, Gehrig. Bagwell’s the 6th best 1B ever. That Kenny should be FIRED!
        • jessep May 2, 2012 at 3:23 pm

          Killebrew is a tough one. He did play over 1,700 games at a position that was NOT 1B. So its a valid point

          McCovey is a tough one too because there are intangibles, and I’m not gonna die on the sword of Bagwell v. McCovey

          The point is that Brian Kenny isn’t dumb for saying what he said. You can disagree, doesn’t make his points invalid.
          • XtreemIcon May 2, 2012 at 3:30 pm

            I’ll stand firmly in the corner of Bags over McCovey. When you hit that much higher and get on base that much more frequently, make 100 fewer errors, steal 10x more bases. I’ll tell ya, I don’t even think it’s all that close. Stretch had ridiculous power. Just stupid strength. And he was a very good hitter, but Bagwell was a better player.
  • jessep May 2, 2012 at 3:01 pm

    I don’t AGREE with the statement but I’m not going to say a measuring tool is worthless because I disagree with a conclusion?

    I mean you’re acting like Kenny suggested that Rico Brogna was a top 1B all time.

    Putting steroids aside, because if we’re going to nullify what players did who we THINK took steroids, then take away Mike Piazza’s achievements today.

    Saying a guy who averaged .297/34 hr/115 rbi/.408 obp/.540 slg/6 time top 10 MVP (1 win), and a gold glove is one of the top 1B of all time isn’t exactly the worst thing to say in the world.

    MLB’s Prime 9 was
    9. Harmon Killebrew
    8. Jim Thome
    7. Eddie Murray
    6. Hank Greenberg
    5. Willie McCovey
    4. Johnny Mize
    3. Albert Pujols
    2. Jimmie Foxx
    1. Lou Gehrig

    Now I think personally that Bagwell was a better player than Thome. Greenberg is a tough one to judge, but lets say for history sake he should be Top 10. I’d personally take Bagwell over Murray too.

    Any time you make any list, you can come up with different views. But to scoff at Kenny using sabermetrics because he put Bagwell in his top 5 is really ignorant.

    If he said Bagwell was Top 10 would you have scoffed?
• DaveUpstateNY May 2, 2012 at 2:39 pm

  I don’t think any of them are overrated. Over-hoped, definitely. Lasting Milledge and Carlos Gomez were overrated. We heard the dreaded “5 tool player” with those fools. Duda was never over-hyped in the minors and Tejada certainly wasn’t. There’s been a lot of talk about Kirk and the future…let’s hope he develops.

  By the way, the popping noise from the caht here is very annoying. I don’t see a way to turn it off.
• trs86 May 2, 2012 at 2:45 pm

  One thing we all agree on, Schwindy sucks.
  • trs86 May 2, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    I would imagine after this game they will send him back down and bring up a little BP help and then bring up Hefner for the next #5 spot.
• Old Backstop May 2, 2012 at 4:20 pm

  I’ve seen enough of Ruben Tejada to know he’s going to be a special player. 21 and in the majors and playing like he’s ten year veteran.
• Even Flow May 2, 2012 at 4:30 pm

  I agree with Seth on Thole & Duda. Duda is strictly a DH in my eyes and Thole is a one trick pony. Nieuwenhuis & Tejada however? No dice. Tejada is gonna grow to be something special with the Mets and Nieuwenhuis is what makes the Mets go at this point in time. If it wasn’t for these two, we’re be fighting Miami for last, and that’s saying something.

  Whenever Kirk goes, so do the Mets. Wait…I could’ve sworn I heard that one before.
• Mr North Jersey May 2, 2012 at 6:52 pm

  Off Topic: Arizona Diamondbacks left-hander Wade Miley beats out Capt Kirk for NL Rookie of the Month.

  http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/44206/kirk-deprived-of-nl-rookie-award
• Mr North Jersey May 2, 2012 at 7:55 pm

  Regarding Home Grown players there is a nice article on MILB by Ashley Marshall on Mets prospects Cory Vaughn & Wilmer Flores.

  http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120501&content_id=30145732&fext=.jsp&vkey=news_milb
  • Mr North Jersey May 2, 2012 at 8:05 pm

    Travis Taijeron just hit his 7th HR of season. Panteleodis looking good 2nite.
    • Fonzie13 May 2, 2012 at 8:32 pm

      Have any idea why Harvey was lifted after only 4 innings and 68 pitches? Injury?
      • Mr North Jersey May 2, 2012 at 8:33 pm

        rain delay fonzie. though short 20 plus minutes they took him out i guess to be safe.
        • Fonzie13 May 2, 2012 at 9:09 pm

          That’s good thanks. As long as he didn’t get hurt, that’s what I was afraid of.
    • Mr North Jersey May 2, 2012 at 8:50 pm

      Panteliodis final line for the night: 6.0/IP, 2/H, 0/R. 0/ER, 2/BB, 5/SO.

      He lowered his ERA to an impressive 0.68/ERA on the season.
• Lifelongmetsfan May 2, 2012 at 8:03 pm

  Yes, the Mets “homegrown talent” is over-rated. I don’t think that’s in question.
  -Daniel Murphy is an American League DH without 20+ home run power.
  -Josh Thole is at best a back-up catcher and even that is being generous. I don’t know too many Major Leagues teams who would carry a poor fielding, poor throwing, poor pitch calling singles hitter..
  -Ruben Tejada has poise, outstanding instincts but providing consistent high level major league shortstop play is an issue. Even with recent offensive improvements Tejada I still see Tejada as being one of the worst offensive major league shortstops. Tejada’s real major league future lies as a utility middle infielder.
  -Ike Davis is a good defensive 1st baseman who has a big giant hole in his swing. And at the major league level Davis is an easy out compared to other major league starting 1st baseman. In time Davis hopefully will adjust and “fix” his swing but I fear that with his stubborn streak and having heard all the “Met promoting” him as a finished project capable of 30 Home runs 100 rbi’s annually has harmed his development. Davis believes the BS and now it’s going to take him hitting bottom to “fix” his swing.
  -Duda is a 1st baseman or DH. Duda is not an outfielder. Duda is not going to hit 20+ home runs and drive in 100 runs. Duda should be playing every day at AAA. He just isn’t ready and represents another Met starting player who would not be starting for any other Major League team.
  I have to stop it’s too depressing.
• LL May 2, 2012 at 8:08 pm

  I am not going to go too in depth in the analysis here. But I don’t see how anyone can really find fault in what Thole has done thus far this year. Obviously there are still questions about him, but I think it’s harsh to say that he has “seen enough of him”. He’s hitting around .300 with a .375 OBP…pretty solid.

  And also in saying “I can definitely see him hitting between 17 and 23 HR’s a year, but is that enough? I personally feel you need more from your corner OF positions.” the author is severely overrating the typical power that comes from the corner OF positions. On average MLB teams got 18 HR from RF last yr and 22 from LF. It’s not like every corner OFer was mashing 35+ HR. Only 5 total corner OFers hit more than 30 HR last yr.
• srt May 2, 2012 at 8:33 pm

  Homegrown talent overrated? Absolutely not. The more home grown talent you can develop, the better. It’s key.

  Our current home grown talent overrated? That’s a totally different question. Most currently remains to be seen. All depends on your definition of ‘talent’ as well. Also, you’ve got to know when to hold them, and know when to part with them.
• Joey D. May 2, 2012 at 8:54 pm

  It was the reference that the author who put forth those projections for Duda, Tejada, etc . was into saber metrics that caused me to make my comments. Will not deny I am quite vocal about the success attributed to those who went “outside the box” and those with little professional experience understood things much better than those who had spent a lifetime in the game. IMHO, I think it is more myth than reality and these are the reasons why.

  For example, Sandy openly admits he had no professional knowledge of the game when he became the Oakland G.M. Yet, many allude to the success of his Oakland teams specifically to his use of computer analysis based on what he learned studying Bill James to make up for his lack of professional understanding. How often has he been referred to as the “grandfather of saber metrics”? How often do we read that he went against the recommendations of baseball “traditionalists” based on his own advanced statistical analysis and calculations?

  So what does that say about a lawyer coming in “cold” (his own word)? That he either did his work mostly behind the computer or that the credit for the personnel moves really belongs to those underneath him (for certainly one with no professional knowledge can in a few years suddenly develop the professional talent required for putting together a major league roster).

  Another is the credit Billy Beane gets – not for his great eye for talent which I think is one of the best in the game – but upon his dependency specifically of a computer programmer with no big understanding of the game advising him which player to acquire based on being undervalued financially (money ball) and the player fitting into the team, determined not by scouts or Art Howe but by the statistical conclusions this programmer provided.

  The above is attributed to Oakland succeeding in 2002 after the loss of Jason Giambi, Frank Thomas and Johnny Damon – not the returning players and the great pitching staff that simply dominated the American League – nor that most of these players were not yet eligible for free agency and thus the low payroll. In fact, at the end of the film “money ball” it was said that the 2004 World Champion Red Sox utilized Bean’s new type of methodology which is furthest from the truth. They had one of the highest payrolls in the game and most of the key players on that 2004 team were on the squad two years earlier when Billy only started to work “outside the box”.

  This is what I mean about myths.

  Now, for advanced computer analysis in general. About those charts, Kenny used the phrase “saber charts”, not “spray charts” and was telling a successful major league pitcher how much more they should be used in game situations, thus causing Al Leiter to grimmence.

  About those shifts, even Kenny admitted they were used more than 60 years ago. And the Williams shift obviously was not based on any statistical charts – two teams incorporated them against Ted Williams based on their observation of his hitting traits.

  That’s why I mean about there being any new analytical information that the baseball people don’t know already either in projections or in strategy. It is great for the storage and retrieval of traditional information for reference but that is different than saying it provides new revelations on how the game should be played and looked at.

  It is also being used as a way to rewrite history as per the point about Jeff Bagwell. I put the steroid issue aside so we can judge him strictly on performance as it now appears. As I said, great numbers but there is something wrong for sabers to suddenly imply he was better than any of the great first basemen we saw over the past 60 years instead of basing their conclusions on observation.

  And how could Kenny have used “bad methodology” if what he was quoting was sabre metric analysis?

  The same holds true for that saber site which said Yogi Berra was wrong in his assessment about him having a “lousy year” (Yogi’s own words).

  That’s my whole point – too many people citing advanced analysis are now telling baseball players like Leiter and Berra that they now know more about how the game should be played and observed than they do.

  As far as other questions raised by Donal:

  1)”No, stop lying. that never happened. Name the programmer.” To that I just say “watch the movie “- “Money Ball” is still being shown on Starz. I agree it never happened like in the movie but my point is that too many are making it out that it did.

  2) “Here’s the big question: Who was right?”. I don’t beliebve Brian Kenny knows more about playing the game than Al Leiter.

  Fonzie, while, we are on opposite sides of the fence and can disagree on our interpretation of things, your sarcastic remarks are not even worthy of a reply.

  And, regarding those projections for Miledge and Bay, I have referenced them before and if anyone wants to do a web search instead of taking me for my word, please do so. I suspected Lastings would not have a good major league career based on the attitude problems I saw with both his coaches and teammates (don’t forget that “know your place, rook” note that was placed in the clubhouse by in 2006).
  • XtreemIcon May 2, 2012 at 9:44 pm

    That’s a lot of words that say absolutely nothing.

    “Another is the credit Billy Beane gets – not for his great eye for talent which I think is one of the best in the game – but upon his dependency specifically of a computer programmer with no big understanding of the game advising him which player to acquire based on being undervalued financially (money ball) and the player fitting into the team, determined not by scouts or Art Howe but by the statistical conclusions this programmer provided.” This made-up computer programmer have a name?

    “In fact, at the end of the film “money ball” it was said that the 2004 World Champion Red Sox utilized Bean’s new type of methodology which is furthest from the truth.” I stopped reading right there. Do yourself a favor. Un-see Moneyball. Forget it ever happened. You have no frame of reference of the actual events, so you can’t pretend to understand what events of the movie were fabrication and what was based on stretched truths. If you’re using what the movie showed as actual events and try to drag that down, you’re only doing a disservice to your own argument.

    “but there is something wrong for sabers to suddenly imply he was better than any of the great first basemen we saw over the past 60 years instead of basing their conclusions on observation.” You’re so full of it, you know that? First of all, who “suddenly” implied anything? If you mean why is his name only popping up in the past five years or so, it’s because that’s when his career ended. So excuse anyone for waiting for his career to end to judge the totality of it. And you cannot be more hypocritical when you spew this observation garbage. I better not read anything from you about how Gehrig or Foxx or Greenberg was better. You never saw them play.

    “And, regarding those projections for Miledge and Bay, I have referenced them before” Indulge me. Reference them again.

    And in the future, don’t be so condescending and elitist just because you’re older than some people here. Baseball knowledge and understanding is not commensurate with age, and your last diatribe seems to underscore that sentiment greatly.
    • Metsie May 2, 2012 at 10:29 pm

      LOL and a lot of word mostly Bull!

      Your Right there was no great calclations made…
      They looked at OBP and didn’t really care what the rest of the numbers said!

      Do I care? NO! Why? Because he gets on base!
    • Joey D. May 3, 2012 at 12:20 am

      Maybe when some become older they will learn to have manners and disagree with people but not with a sarcastic tongue. Or it might not be a matter of age but simply not knowing what it means to display simple common courtesy. Either way, there are no excuses to make personal attacks on anybody and not to debate differences of opinion in an “appropriate manner” as Joe D. alluded to.

      It doesn’t upset me if many are in sharp disagreement with points I raise and go to great lengths to dispute them — after all, I do the same with equal passion and frustration. It’s the lack of civility on the part of some that bothers me and I’ve seen it too often done to others as well. Accusing one of condescending behavior because he refers to things he has seen being older so he can share with others the reasons for his opinions (often acknowledging he is aware this could be a source of bias on his own part) is a prime example of the arrogance I’m referring to.
      • XtreemIcon May 3, 2012 at 6:14 am

        Just returning the favor, pal.
        • Metsie May 3, 2012 at 8:10 am

          Yep it’s never your fault is it?
          Always someone else’s fault when the disrepect starts flying…
          Typical Who Me? attitude you show whenever trouble rears it’s ugly head!
          • Joey D. May 3, 2012 at 10:09 am

            Thank you, Metsi…, remember a while back I said if I ever needed a lawyer, I wanted it to be you.
            • Metsie May 3, 2012 at 11:05 am

              Just a kid that wasn’t raised correctly and never got the lesson to respect your elders because they have more life experience than you!

              I see know it all kids like that on my crews all the time!
              Most get fired because they think they know something that we learned from experience is not knowledge just foolish short sighted stupidity!

              And they don’t ever get the experience because they get fired and never hired again because they don’t listen to those who have been there!
              They know better!
      • Donal May 3, 2012 at 11:00 am

        You get accused of condescending behavior because you in fact act in a condescending manner.

        Age does not equal experience. Being there does not equal experience. Watching something happening does not equal experience.

        Actually doing it is what gives you experience. And even then, you have to have the mental faculties to properly learn from said experience for it to be of any value.

        And courtesy is being respectful of each other. Dismissing someone else because you (wrongly) assume they are too young or that they “sit in front of their computer monitor” all the time is not respectful, no matter what salutations you put in front of it.

        there is nothing wrong with using your age if it is relevant to the conversation. There are just a few things you need to remember:

        1) Your memory is not a recording device. It is colored by your biases, your preferences and the mists of time. 2 people can see the same thing and remember it differently.

        2) It does not give you the right to speak down or dismiss someone else.

        3) Your opinion does not trump recorded facts in arguments such as who was the more productive player.
        • Metsie May 3, 2012 at 11:03 am

          Hello POT!
          • Vinny B May 3, 2012 at 11:28 am

            They are just mad because he’s speaking out against sabermetrics.They don’t like their stats, and their views being questioned, so they demonize anyone who speaks out against it. And it doesn’t matter if your respectful, condescending, or whatever, they will attack attack you for speaking out against it.
            • Donal May 3, 2012 at 11:35 am

              He’s not speaking out against sabermetrics. He has not made one rational, proven argument against them. All he has done is hit up a bunch of logical fallacies and wrapped condescension in nice greetings.

              What he is doing is insulting people who are proponents of them.
              • Metsie May 3, 2012 at 4:01 pm

                And you haven’t made one rational proven point to support them either!
                And your idea of rational is anything Jessup or Xtreeme says I don’t think you have had an original thought of your own since I got here!
            • Metsie May 3, 2012 at 4:05 pm

              Actually they are just mad because we don’t follow their Sandy is great Moneyabll works script!
              Anyone who doesn’t get with their program is insulting, crazy or an idiot!

              Just ask them it only takes three or four go rounds in the comments to get them to call you something and when you call them something back YOU started it! ROFLMAO!
  • Donal May 3, 2012 at 10:45 am

    “It was the reference that the author who put forth those projections for Duda, Tejada, etc . was into saber metrics that caused me to make my comments. ”

    So, you judged his work based on something you think you heard about the author without actually viewing his work?

    “For example, Sandy openly admits he had no professional knowledge of the game when he became the Oakland G.M.”

    No, he doesn’t say that. He said he didn’t have the knowledge when he was first hired by the As..as a lawyer. He was promoted to GM after learning the inner workings of a baseball franchise.

    “Yet, many allude to the success of his Oakland teams specifically to his use of computer analysis based on what he learned studying Bill James to make up for his lack of professional understanding.”

    Do you just throw buzzwords into your posts (Bill James and computer) thinking it will give you some kind of boost? Because those of us that actually know what we are talking about see right through that.

    “Now, for advanced computer analysis in general. About those charts, Kenny used the phrase “saber charts”, not “spray charts” and was telling a successful major league pitcher how much more they should be used in game situations, thus causing Al Leiter to grimmence.”

    Either you misheard or Kenny messed up. Spray charts have been around a long time and are used by lots of teams. And defensive shifts are pretty standard.

    “That’s why I mean about there being any new analytical information that the baseball people don’t know already either in projections or in strategy.”

    One guy misusing the term does not make that statement right. The fact is that the teams and fans are getting deeper insight and better understanding than ever before.

    And look what happens when it does say something you weren’t told before. You go on the attack and claim the method is wrong based on the conclusion.

    “It is also being used as a way to rewrite history as per the point about Jeff Bagwell.”

    No, it is challenging preconceived notions. It isn’t rewriting history at all, but rather reviewing it.

    “And how could Kenny have used “bad methodology” if what he was quoting was sabre metric analysis?”

    I want to know if your problem is how he came to said conclusion or the conclusion itself. Obviously, your big problem with this is how it challenges what you have been told for so long.

    “The same holds true for that saber site which said Yogi Berra was wrong in his assessment about him having a “lousy year” (Yogi’s own words).

    That’s my whole point – too many people citing advanced analysis are now telling baseball players like Leiter and Berra that they now know more about how the game should be played and observed than they do.”

    No, no one says that at all. Again, you are lying. You have a strawman and an appeal to authority rolled into one sentence.

    ” To that I just say “watch the movie “- “Money Ball” is still being shown on Starz. I agree it never happened like in the movie but my point is that too many are making it out that it did.”

    Actually, I read the book. There was no mention of this mysterious computer programmer. And anyone who is serious about sabermetrics (or anyone who has ever seen a Hollywood “history” piece) knows better than to trust a movie.

    Why can’t you answer a straight forward question?

    “2) “Here’s the big question: Who was right?”. I don’t beliebve Brian Kenny knows more about playing the game than Al Leiter.”

    I’m willing to bet the managers who use defensive shifts no more about positioning 7 guys than Leiter. Al is a really good commentator and shares a lot of knowledge about pitching, but he is not the be all and end all of baseball. No one person is. You can get 2 equally accomplished and respected former players taking different stances on 10 different subjects. A lot has to do with personal perception and preference.

    So, ya, your appeal to authority continues to fail.

    “And, regarding those projections for Miledge and Bay, I have referenced them before and if anyone wants to do a web search instead of taking me for my word, please do so.”

    No, you make the claim you back it up. That is how adults do it. Don’t tell other people to do your work for you.

    I asked you some straight forward questions that you won’t answer. Why not?
• L.J. Phipps May 2, 2012 at 9:16 pm

  At the end of the day, I can appreciate the home grown talent and their efforts. Ike will get it together, LuDu will be a force I just have a gut feeling and I believe he will eventually be a serviceable outfielder. Tejeda is good defensively and if he hits .270 to .280 I will be happy. Thole is working on his defense and he can hit for average. Kirk has been a pleasant surprise and if he can hit the breaking ball consistently they could have a pretty good outfield in a couple of years ( Duda-Kirk-Cory). Murph is a good hitter reminds me of Dave Magadan for some reason without the glove. It’s a lineup that can work and if the defense improves it can be a serious contender. They may not all be stars or achieve superstardom, but I like this better than bringing in a bunch of high priced vets or over priced free agents and getting 2009-2011 results. I have always talked about player development and I can get excited about this team if they can continue to produce serviceable major league players that compete.
• Brandon Butler May 2, 2012 at 9:21 pm

  Seth Shaprio?

  Any relation Petey Pete?
• Metsie May 2, 2012 at 10:44 pm

  They aren’t overated they are just rookies!
  Some overate the importance of Rookies to winning.
  The issues sure haven’t been the rookies unless you are counting Ike as still a rookie!

  The problem is what it has always been, Lack of starting pitching and a badly performing Bullpen that quickly puts games with good starting pitching into no decisions and games with bad starting pitching out of reach!

  We haven’t lost a single game because of our homegrowns at least from the rookie side of those homegrowns.

  Parnell (a homegrown) has been one of the only bright spots in that pen! The rest are all retreads from KMart and one guy who we spent decent money on as a diversion for losing our SS!

  Kirk has done well, Duda has been slow to start Ike I won’t even go so far to say he has started yet.
  Tejada and Thole have been fine, Murphy sure hasn’t cost us as much as he has won.

  You can cite Gee maybe but no one ever overated him and this is what rookies go through especially starting pitchers in their sophmore year when the book from last season is finally out on him.

  Either you have to let these rookies develop and take what they give you now as nice but maybe not the average they will ultimatly be. And stop worrying so much about how this season may turn out becase we are starting them!

  I know full well the reasons for this whole discussion is to start the conversations regarding who we will trade to get the bushel of kids everyone says is so important but when they get up here won’t give them the chance to show how important they might be or how well they might do!

  We have lost mostly because the starting pitching hasn’t been stellar every game and even when they are the Pen we focused all our money and energy on this offseason blows it!

  Our Kids aren’t over rated they are under staffed!
  We need another starting pitcher, have needed one for the past two years and all we got was one guy who got hurt 4 games in and another who coldn’t get out of the 6th and forced the pen we dumped to win all his games but one!

  This is year two rebuilding the pen and it seems our General Contractor has made things worse not better!

  These losses are all the product of him and his GOOD DAY!
  You all jumped to procliam victory for your agenda’s after a fast start and now look at you!
  Running for cover and trying to blame the kids for the issues when we know it is the lack of veterans (you guys turned your nose up at in favor of this no one over 25 youth movement) who could fix the problems that have caused us to fall from that fast start!

  Hardly one new player we brought in this offseason has showed he was even worth talking to yet!
  But you guys all thought it was great when we signed them!
• Joey D. May 3, 2012 at 1:47 pm

  Metsi,

  Know what you mean. While this is a problem on most all blogs, I saw this type of behavior directed toward many an individual on MMO long before I ever submitted a post myself.

  Joe
  • Metsie May 3, 2012 at 4:15 pm

    Yes Joey it has happened for quite awhile the only thing that is different from when I first got here is that the guys who did the most insulting then started complaining when it was given back to them whereas before it was just ignored!
    • Joey D. May 3, 2012 at 7:05 pm

      Hi Metsi,

      And vicious remarks are only reflective of the character of the sources that uttered them.

      Thanks again,
      Joe
    • trs86 May 3, 2012 at 7:10 pm

      But it’s just too hard to ignore you guys regardless of your insults. Lol
• TeddyK May 3, 2012 at 8:24 pm

  Out of everyone, who thought the mets by this time were going to be 5 games below .500 when you were predicting records in January? That’s right, all of you, including me, and I am absolutely from the top – down, a balls out Mets fanatic.
  I’m going to say that the homegrown talent is in fact, underrated in some regards, but overrated by the media, who has been trying to push a higher dynamic output out of each up-and-coming player. I’m going to try to be realistic about the players, maybe a little overboard at times, but mostly realistic.

  With Ike Davis, people are judging him with a slow start, including spring training. Who was questioning his potential that this time last year? No one was. He is definitely overrated if people expect he’s going to be that all-out offensive first-baseman who’s going to hit 30+ home runs and 110 Rbi’s with a .290 average. He’s going to be that consistent medium that is going to earn his rep’s for being who he is as someone with plus power, slightly above average hit, probably a .270/20-25hr/95 rbi’s at peak. He has been cited as well as the average first baseman by BA, something that is not necessarily a bad thing by any standards. He was drafted not to be the big cornerstone, but to give the Mets someone viable and affordable at first base when Delgado left, and that’s exactly what he is doing.

  Lucas Duda is, in fact playing out of position. No doubt about that. He is, and always will be a first baseman, but he is not providing the worst range in RF ever is he? He is also not providing the worst bat either. As a career minor league first baseman, this is impressive for him to get used to a new position, and switching from first base to the outfield is definitely no easy task. He is also providing a possible stop-gap for a new prospect like Puello, Nimmo, or Vaughn to possibly get into in the next few years. As a hitter, he is only improving, and this is coming from someone who has been down on him since Brooklyn. He’s not going to be the best hitter, but he’s going to have a better year than most right fielders, and that is what you want. Don’t expect the world from Duda, but don’t expect the worst either. He isn’t that bad for someone who switched from a less mobile position to a definitely-mobile position.

  Ruben Tejada is providing exactly what he should as an average shortstop. He doesn’t need power. Not really many shortstops really have that much power anyway without being freaks of nature. Reyes is irreplaceable, for sure, but, I wasn’t too broken up over seeing him go. Before Reyes had that major comeback, so many people were irritated by the fact that he couldn’t even make it on the field. He only qualified for the batting title with 135 games under his belt, vs. Braun who had 13 games more played. He still made it to the DL last year, but no one remembered because he was that “supreme” offensive talent. Honestly, his stolen bases were cut in half, his home run total wasn’t near 2006 & 2007 (not like it matters too much, but it still is a cause for concern), and he is going to continue to decline even before he gets out of those seemingly peak years. Tejada has been consistent from day 1, being the hitter everyone knew he was going to be: .280 with no real power, but great patience, as well as average defense which is exactly what this team really needs at this point. He is what he is, and a lot of teams would be fine with just that.

  Daniel Murphy is a great hitter, who is playing without a position. There’s not much more I can say about that. Hopes are that Reese Havens become healthy enough to finally play enough games and push him out. He’s a great player, great guy (he once gave me his batting gloves, and this was right before he made it to the Majors), but he definitely is position less. It doesn’t mean he’s useless by any means: he is one of the more consistent players on the actual team when it comes to batting, he just doesn’t have a defensive position, which is a necessity while playing on a National League team.

  Josh Thole is a hitter without great defensive skills in the most important defensive position in the game. But, right now his positives of getting on base are what is overshadowing his inept ability to be a good defensive backstop. He is overrated, but not a useless player, and definitely not one of the worst players to watch. He throws out base-runners at a league average and is catching a Knuckleballer, 2 out of 7 days which is probably one of the most difficult things to do in sports, itself. Catcher is also one of the most difficult positions to play in sports, which is why there are so many without high offensive putout.

  Lastly, Nieuwenhuis. Okay, be down, be up, can’t hit lefties? Nor can Granderson, nor can a lot of lefty batters, but he still does a good job hitting, nonetheless. He is the outfielder that anyone wants though, when you think about it. He is tough, he is balls-out at all times, and he does something not too many other players really can do with the tools he has: Adjust. The reason why Nieuwenhuis is so valuable to me is because he can adjust to any level, which is what he did after Brooklyn. He adjusted and flourished in St. Lucie and Binghamton, which is why his ascent was so drastic, and he was considered to be the favorite to start in center when Torres went down in spring, and should have been the starter by June last year if he didn’t tear a tendon in his non-throwing shoulder. By the way, if Shapiro is judging him for 3 games in Left, he should really see where he has been playing throughout his career, which was Center field. He has absolutely no right to judge someone on 3 games in left field. He’s also going to provide average offensive output in center, which is something actually incredibly valuable, considering the steady decline lately.

  Shapiro was pessimistic in his assessments of these players. He was also forgetting the past performances, and the real expectations of each player that he was assessing. Shapiro also forgets one other thing: none of these players, except for maybe Davis, ever projected to be a star player. He needs to assess what his expectations are from his favorite team, and be realistic, as well as know what he’s really talking about as he watches his players. It doesn’t seem like he really watches the farm teams and reads the scouting reports and other tidbits about these players. Most teams do not produce 5 star players within a span of 4 years, more like major league average, with some surprises, here and there.

  Joe D is right in the fact that you do not need stars to make a winning team. In fact, you just need players to be a team, and put out to the offensive and defensive potential that they can do. If Duda and Davis get going, and everyone else proves to be even semi-consistent, people are looking at an above-average ball club.