15
2012
Francisco Was A Bad Idea
An article by 
As I said yesterday, a team is only as strong as its bullpen. The Mets have exceeded most expectations save one: The bullpen remains a concern. It is the Mets’ weakest link.
Frank Francisco blew his second save in three games, meaning in a perfect world they would have swept the Marlins this weekend and gone 6-0 on their road trip.. However, baseball, as we know, is an imperfect sport and the Mets certainly are an imperfect team.
In the long term Francisco will remain the closer simply because of that ridiculous two-year, $12-million contract. If a player’s own team has no interest in him, then why do the Mets give multi-year deals? Wasn’t anything learned from the Omar Minaya era?
Manager Terry Collins needs to address this sooner than later, because nothing can kill the good vibrations the Mets have emitted this spring than a leaky bullpen. Jon Rauch? Tim Brydak? Back to Bobby Parnell? Perhaps a committee?
Collins knows his personnel better than anybody, but clearly everybody can tell right now Francisco is not the answer.
“He’s the boss,” Francisco told reporters. “He can do whatever he wants. I’m here to help the team; I guess I’m not doing that. Whatever decision he makes, it’s fine with me. But I’m here to fight. Whenever I can, I’m going to try to do my best out there every time I go out.”
So far, Francisco’s best is an 8.56 ERA, with 20 hits and seven walks in 13 2/3 innings. Those numbers are positively Oliver Perez-like.
Thoughts from Joe D. – Ohhh… So Francisco was tipping his pitches… And all this time I thought he was just a terrible closer. My bad…
I never liked this deal from the word go. Saw it purely as a cover from losing Reyes and very ill conceived. I’m also tired of the defense that it was better than K-Rod for $17 million. K-Rod was never an option and was traded seven months before we even signed Francisco. One has nothing to do with the other. This was a terrible signing for a reliever who has never had success as closer where ever he’s played. A $12 million dollar deal for Francisco was simply a terrible allocation of our very limited funds this past offseason.
By the way, I’m still laid up in a hospital bed at the VA Hospital. I hope they’ll let me go home soon, this place has got me stir crazy.
About the Author: John Delcos
I am an active member of the BBWAA and have covered Major League Baseball in several capacities for over 20 years, including ten in New York working the Mets' and Yankees' beat. I covered the Baltimore Orioles for eight years and the Cleveland Indians before that. I currently serve as an editor and senior staff writer for Mets Merized Online. Follow me on Twitter @jdelcos.
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Ohhhhhh, you guys are gonna hear it from the guy who write this masterpiece back in november:
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/12/alderson-had-a-good-day.html
By the way, the best part of that article was when the author said this:
“In 2011, the bullpen racked up 27 losses for the Mets. Rauch/Ramirez/Francisco should “on paper” decrease that total.”
already the bullpen has 8 losses, on pace for more than 35, also between the 3 vaunted bullpen guys alderson brought is here are they’re numbers:
49.1 IP 55 Hits 21 BB 39 K’s 5 Losses 5 Blown Saves and an ERA of almost 6… All of that for the pricing of $20 Million dollar.
Get well soon Joe.
As for the FFF signing, it looks bad for now for sure. I am still curious who the detractors wanted to sign given the budget. Don’t give me names like Broxton or Lidge as their injury history Sandy would have been crucified there as well.
I honestly thought that Rauch was the overkill part and believed that the reason they signed two average to below average closers was an intention to trade one of them. We will see if that happens. Now it turns out that Rauch may have been the good signing.
As for Alex, are you now ok with this article from John? It seems in the past you have talked about how terrible he was. I guess when he says something you support….
I am still curious who the detractors wanted to sign given the budget.”
How did i know you were gonna use that as an excuse? point was he needed to wait and see the market. Not set it for these bums when the mets as he said had no money to spend. Why OVERSPEND on this guys amd not wait for the market? Could’ve had 7 bullpen guys when it was all said and done… Here’s what sandy himself said about acquiring frank francisco:
“Sandy Alderson said team demoralized by inability to close games. That’s why he signed Francisco”
I wonder what the genius himself is thinking..
Also, about john, never said this article was good or anything, just saying jesseP might have something to say about that… Maybe I’m sorry for being a sucker for sandy?
Also, you attack MMO all the time, calling the shoutbox a fuming pile etc… So… There..
Was that last line your attempt at a nah nah nah nah na? LOL. Again, I love MMO but think some of the commenters do a disservice to the quality product given and I think the shoutbox is misused and the terms of commenting are broken in order to talk about people who show them up in the comment section.
Now back to your attempt at a point.
It may have been early. I don’t doubt that. Perhaps he should have waited in hindsight. However, what would your group be saying if he had waited and all that was left was Lidge and he was on the DL by April 15th?
wait and see the market, like he did with Reyes, which you roasted him for?
And be honest, if Sandy had waited until late in the off season and picked over the scraps, you would have been all over him for not striking early to get someone better (and being more concerned about cheap than good).
WORST GM IN THE HISTORY OF THE METS. And the desert people are here trying to defend him at all cost… SMH…
LOL, poor Alex. When he can’t defend his point he goes back to this.
hey, right now he has them in a playoff spot, with the 4th best record in the NL, in only his 2nd year. Let’s give the man some props please.
Memo:
You win in-spite of Sandy and lose because of him. Sounds like the same theory that got Willie fired.
hey, right now he has them in a playoff spot, with the 4th best record in the NL, in only his 2nd year”
Are you serious?????? How stupid will you look if the mets end up with a losing record and obviuosly don’t make the playoffs?
Isn’t his job trying to help the ballclub win game? and to the improve the team? he’s doing neither!!
How stupid would you look Alex if they won as many games as last year? Considering you predicted I think 68 wins?
Ummm… 69 wins was my prediction.. unlike you and your desert crew, i will admit i was wrong, also take to the bank that i said this team will win and play better DESPITE alderson trying to sabotage the season by bringing his scrubs… So far, his revamped bullpen has lost 5 games, blown 5 games and the ERA is north of 6… Sabotaging the season to the fullest, and it only cost us $20 million
At this time in 2006 Minaya had us up by one game in the division with the 4th best Win PCT IN ALL OF BASEBALL!
You predicting playoffs this year?
Here’s what sandy himself said about acquiring frank francisco: “Sandy Alderson said team demoralized by inability to close games. That’s why he signed Francisco”
Hi Alex,
This is also what Sandy said last season during the All-Star break:
“We thank Frankie for his contributions to the Mets and wish him well with the Brewers,” general manager Sandy Alderson said in a statement. “This trade allows us to develop and more fully utilize other members of our 2011 bullpen and offers some payroll relief as well.”
Sandy himself thus set the stage for the team’s inability to close games by believing the “other members of our 2011 bullpen” could take over. He should have ended his statement with just “This trade offers some payroll relief” and nothing more.
Well no matter who the GM is or who the team is there is always PR speak and reality. Reality is that it was the option that got KROD traded. I am sure they were hoping Parnell would step up, but we all know that Parnell wasn’t demonstrating his ability to get to the next level which forced the teams hand to trade KROD.
Which is why using a quote to infer INTENTIONS is wrong and you should only go by what his actions actually were.
As for the Option it is clear we could have gotten K-Rod to waive the Option because by doing so K-Rod could have gotten what he wanted which is to stay a closer!
I’m not going to put all of that on Sandy as K-Rod’s first agent didn’t get K-Rod’s message and K-Rod fired him, only to hire Boras and the fact that there was no list to limit the teams Sandy could trade him to, Sandy took advantage of the transition between Agents and pulled an early trigger!
Still considering all the lack of moves he made in the offseason, lack of renagotiating with ANYONE under contract, Sandy should have seen those issues long before the deadline and worked out the issue of the option before it came down to realizing it was going to trigger in!
He could have easily tried to buy out the option by extending K-Rod for two years or at least set it up to be a non-factor should they want to trade him in the offseason.
While Sandy took advantage of no limting list of teams due to the no trade clause the fact the option existed at all was just as much a limiting factor in who he could trade him to and what he would get in return!
If the option was dealt with earlier he couold have traded him to any number of teams who needed a closer badly and were willing to give up more than Mil gave up to get a setup man!
I don’t get what the issue is FF is 9 for 11 in save opportunities. This is 82%. The league average is 66%. While 2 is still heartbreaking, still a lot better than MLB average.
Why do we feel to complain about everything? We are 5 games over .500 when most figured we’d be 10 games under.
Still amazes me why people can’t analyze a teams circumstances and position and think about why a person was signed over another.
“Saw it purely as a cover from losing Reyes”
- Clearly a hot head closer can change a fanbase perception over the loss of Reyes. Give me a break.
“Wasn’t anything learned from the Omar Minaya era?”
– Yes it was he wasn;t given a four year contract with a 50m option based on innings pitched.
Did I like the signing, absolutely not. Was he given too much money, at the time I thought he did, but after seeing all the other bullpen signings it was not out of line.
What people refuse to understand is the team had a mandate to have no money on the books going into 2014 until the Madoff crap was squared away. They had too many unknowns and it was about getting what they could for the short-term until after the storm passed. So when you want to get the best possible pitcher and offer him no long term stability on a 4th place team with a financial issues, who the hell are you going to get?
What people refuse to understand is the team had a mandate to have no money on the books going into 2014 until the Madoff crap was squared away”
Certainly could’ve had better players than rauch, francisco and cedeno for 20+ Million wouldn’t you say? we’re stuck with Carrasco as well, the GM of this team has done nothing but horrible signings and people like YOU still defend him… Stop kissing up to him, he’s done NOTHING for this franchise… Jeez..
I am not defending him at all, I am more defending players who chose to sign or not. If you were a quality pitcher, and you had equal contracts to go to a team like the Reds or the Mets, who would you choose? Now take a team that has more clarity with their operating expenses and are able to add that extra year, wouldn’t the pitcher want more stability?
Mets fans always think that all players want to come to NY. Even if the Mets were good there are many players that would take less to be in a more calm market or a market that was closer to their family. There are so many factors that come into a acquisition. The GM probably has a list of players he wants. There is going to be competition for many of those players. The players also have many reasons to make a decision on where to go.
Sorry Sandy Haters, I know you want to put everything on your whipping boy, but only your ignorance backs up reasoning.
Salty,
You are right about players maybe not wanting to come here if they can get similar offers from other organizations. How much of this, however, is a reflection of the the front office and the direction they perceive the organizaton headed – despite the infusion of great young talent? And if the money is being offered, what does that then tell the fans about there being no money to spend?
But when your talking about closers, they might want to come here because he would have a better opportunity to be a closer here than most other teams.
Who though? I have yet to have someone who is attacking the FFF signing supply a name of who they would have went with instead.
It’s not only that but it’s media perception as well. That is why this team took the underdog role as much as we all bashed that theory (myself included). So maybe this trend gets reversed but it wasn’t happening during last off-season for sure with the cloud of not only question marks on the field but tons off the field.
Why are you knocking Cedeno here? He’s got nothing to do with this and so far Rauch has looked good as well. The problem here is FFF and it certainly is a problem. What I am asking is who did you want him to sign to be closer?
Oh didn’t you know? Cedeno is the new target. Here are some quotes from the box last night when the game first got started.
“Ronnie Cedeno is hitting .238, small sample but his lowest since 2009″
“If Ronnie Cedeno was hitting .280 or so you’d have my attention. But he’s hitting the worst he has in 3 years so far – we’ll see.”
“now after that K Cedeno is hitting .227…wow real improvement there ”
Talk about grasping for straws. The guy has had 24 AB’s so far this year. 12 before the injury and 12 since his return from the DL. He is a bench player making 1.2 million which is a decrease from the year prior. This is really a testiment to how well these guys are playing when Cedeno is the gripe. Personally I expected 30 HR and 85 RBI’s from him.
I’d like to see those quotes in context. What was Alex responding to?
I am guessing responding to anything he can take opportunity with to bash Alderson?
7:59pm in the shout-box. The only context was that Cedeno was at bat. No one responded to the comments.
Nope. It was because of what Ron Darling was said about Cendeno walking more – Here’s what was said in context:
Donal: wow, now Ronnie has become a sandy sucking sabergoon
Donal: praising plate discipline and working counts
SaltyGary: lol
Bayonne Mets fan: 1) Ronnie Cedeno is hitting .238, small sample but his lowest since 2009
Bayonne Mets Fan: 2) There is no such thing as “working counts” you can “work a pitcher” but u can’t “work a count”
Bayonne Mets fan: ..now after that K Cedeno is hitting .227…wow real improvement there
It’s obvious that Bayonne was responding to Donal, and what Darling was talking about(saying that how much he’s improved by drawing walks). So, if you read it in context, he actually wasn’t attacking the signing.
Fair enough, I didn’t put the two together since they were 10 minutes a part from each other.
Actually, Ronnie was talking about the team as a whole. And you didn’t post what I said regarding Cedeno specifically.
Here’s the rest of his points, that you conveniently left out:
Bayonne Mets fan: 3) I didn’t know that a player’s status as a full time or bench player had anything to do with their batting eye
Bayonne Mets Fan 4) “working counts was what YOU typed” I didn’t see Ron Darling in here typing
Why are you attacking Bayonne? You know he hates when you repeat the silly things he says in their proper context.
I didn’t conveniently leave it out it was posted a half hour after that first response. Seeing that when I looked at it I saw it as just railing on Cedeno as opposed to railing against a supposed “Sandy Philosophy” it is clear didn’t put it together with Donal’s statement and again you are correct that I didn’t have the statement in it’s proper context.
Vinny I’m glad you saw that those quotes by ME were taken completely and 100% out of context.
Those quotes by me were PURPOSELY posted with the intent to deceive.
And purposely posted with the intention to be posted out of context and intentionally deceive the readership. That’s all you need to know about the disgraceful person who posted my quotes completely out of their original context. This person has also admittedly instigated flame wars too and says he was wrong for it but has done it, numerous times here in the past.
That’s the tells you how that person is. He PURPOSELY does things to deceive or LIE to the readership and he PURPOSELY instigates flame wars. He also is a prominent member of another blog site so that tells you all you need to know about how things are run over there, let alone the behaviour of the person that runs that site as well.
They support this kind of behavior
Prominent member of another site? LOL. Salty has been around the Mets blogging world as long as I can remember on various different sites including here. Also as for penchant for starting flame wars, that would be a little of your own medicine buddy.
He missed all capping one of the “PURPOSELY’s”. If he got that other one, then maybe what he said would of been correct.
LOL. Got some characters on here for sure.
and it wasn’t Alex. It was more of a comment to show the Cedeno is the next whipping boy.
they aren’t stuck with DJ. The guy makes what, 1.25mill? or about 3x minimum wage for a guy out of the minors? and he only signed for 2 years.
DJ is utterly disposable, just like Acosta, and if they get a reasonable chance to prove they deserve a job and don’t, they will be gone.
bottom line with BP guys, if you aren’t spending large $$ on a name brand closer (like the Phils did with paps), you are either going to spend moderate money and get experience guys like FFF, rauch, ramirez, or just go super cheap and piece it together from the scrap heap and minor leagues (IOW, go with rookies, journeyman, or trash heap guys).
I was not fond of the franky signing, but I do realize why they ended up with him (and don’t discount the factor of he was willing to come here, and we have no clue if a guy like Capps would have)
Capps had no reason to leave Min.
Here is a list of what one writer ranked as the top 10 closers on the FA market in 2011.
http://bloguin.com/theoutsidecorner/2011-articles/november/2012-free-agent-primer-top-10-closers.html
To save some time:
Paps 4/50
Madson 1/8.5 but at the time was looking at 4/48. Of course out for the season.
Krod ended up settling for arbitration because he had no takers for closer.
Bell 3/27
Cordero 1/4.5 8.10 ERA
FFF 2/12
Nathan 2/14.5 coming off a year with a 4.48 ERA.
Lidge 1/1 injured
Capps 1/4.75 re-signed
Aardsma 1/.5 didn’t pitch in 2011.
Again, I am not saying FFF was the right move. I am asking what you would have done?
Alex68 – Not sure if there is anyone the posts here that has a little credibility as you have. You distort the facts and come across as a whiner. I hate when I skip your name and actually read your posts – because it ends up being a complete waste of my time.
Go find another blog – you’re ruining the experience of the people that really love MMO
Get well soon, Joe. Being stuck in any hospital is enough to drive the most patient person crazy…
Not sure I agree with the signing Francisco to distract the losing Reyes theory but…..
Never much cared for the Francisco signing specifically because of his non existent ability to keep men on base from running on him more so than his overall numbers. That’s a dangerous problem when you’ve got a closer in the 9th who doesn’t often go 1-2-3 to close it out. Just not sure who better might have been available and fit the budget but there had to be somebody. SA took a chance and so far, it’s not working out.
I can only hope he puts up decent numbers and we can flip him at the trade deadline. I’ll settle for a bag of balls.
I don’t buy the cover for Reyes nonsense either. For one thing, it had to have been in the works earlier.
To me, they signed the 2 guys (and gor Ramon) so that they would have some experienced arms in the pen, not knowing what they heck they would be able to get out of the system. Parnell, I’m sure they did not want to annoint him going into ST. beyond that, a lot of MiL arms that may or may not show to be ready in ST? or just invite a lot of invitee types to ST and hope you can cobble one together?
So combine that with a limited budget, and no desire to go more than 2 years (on one guy), and you get a guy like 3F. And they can easily move on from him (entirely, or demote his role) if someone else is a better option.
They were signing those BP guys REGARDLESS of Reyes. You think he said “Oh hell the Marlins are going to get Reyes I better call those 2 BP guys and tell them whatever you want you can have, I got to cover up”? Besides doesn’t that kind of fly in the face of the idea that Sandy never wanted Reyes to start with?
NO it doesn’t because Sandy’s plan was to LOOK like he wanted Reyes without actually signing him. To reduce the pressure from the press!
Hence the Oh the Marlins offered you 6/106
I’m Sorry the number I had in my head was lower than that
If he had merely offerred 6/96 or 6/100 Reyes might have taken that deal!
And if he offered him what he was willing to pay him in July (which you guys seem to think is proof Sandy wanted him) when Reyes was Exclusive then the Marlins wouldn’t have been able to set the market!
First and foremost, I love that certain people continue to mention my name on other people’s write ups. It truly shows that the debates are not about content but about obsession.
Delcos to your post… here’s the problem as I see it.
For starters, a 2 year contract isn’t exactly a big risk. It’s not like they signed him to a 4 year deal. A 2 year deal gives you an out. If the court cases etc were in a different spot this winter, I think they would have likely tossed Carrasco. Eating 1 year is different than eating 3.
I’m not ready to quit on Francisco. Do I think he’s a nailbiter of a closer? Absolutely. But I think you’ll get the same type of performances from Rauch, Parnell etc.
Take a look around MLB. It’s been mentioned to the state of exhaustion. For example, the Blue Jays let Rauch and Francisco go… they signed Cordero, and he just lost his job.
Heath Bell, who a few of my fans said they wanted… lost his job. Brad Lidge signed a 1year deal and some here freaked out. Where’s he right now? Oh right, injured again.
Marmol in Chicago, both LA teams have demoted their closers. So did Oakland, the list goes on and on and on.
Maybe the league is waking up and realizing that you’ll never see another Mariano Rivera. The closers role is being phased out in part, but mostly in terms of financial commitment.
I’ll take Francisco’s troubles in year 1 over Heath Bell’s in year 1 any day. If Bell isn’t their closer, that hurts Miami much more than Francisco getting demoted.
In my eyes, the Mets signed a relief pitcher to a 2 year deal. I’m not sure what the alternative was?
He’s off to a bad start, it happens. But the contract isn’t exactly a burden for future spending, and if he goes to the 8th then who cares? You just want quality performances… I don’t care if it’s in the 8th or 9th
That’s my problem. If not FFF who and how likely was that to be better?
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that there were probably a lot of pitchers available that could post an ERA under 8.
yeah, but chances are Francisco will have beaten them out by the end of the season. Alderson wasn’t looking to sign the ‘best reliever for April and May’, he was factoring in the 5 months after that too.
The way it looks now, I doubt that. He looks awful.
If he doesn’t stop blowing games he’s not going to get into any in July and August to change anyone’s opinion of him!
True, but isn’t that hindsight? Should we have expected him to have an 8.00 ERA? Considering his time in Texas produced an ERA under 4.00 we all should expect a move to the NL and to Citi should produce an 8+ ERA. Got it.
Nobody expected him to pitch this bad. But defending the signing by saying “who else were we going to sign”, is just an excuse. That would be like saying Luis Castillo wasn’t a bad move because there was nobody else better.
Sure it is an excuse in terms of who he signed. What it is not is an excuse for how poorly he has pitched.
You can’t get on someone for signing someone without discussing the alternatives.
Ok, so would you say Castillo wasn’t a bad move? Because it’s the same thing, there was nobody else better.
Actually I defended the Castillo contract at the time although I wanted them to go with a platoon of Gotay and Easley instead I understood why Omar did it. (I think I have those 2 names as the correct participants.) I wanted no part of OP or Bay. I never thought Castillo handcuffed the Mets the way that some did.
Hi TR,
At the time I too agreed with the Castillo signing. But not being a baseball insider, I have no idea how much was felt about his physical decline as well as those of skills. I thought he had a few years left.
But at that age, a two year offer, not three or four.
My defense of Omar was always about the same as Sandy. It isn’t that I agreed with the signings it was that I saw the reasoning behind them. That’s all you can really ask for. Perez, I did not like but you can defend the signing. Castillo I liked a little more but I still would have been happy with Easley and Gotay. That’s not the point though. The point is that most signings there is a gray area and things are not black and white. To analyze you have to look at the situation and the alternatives.
Metsie still hasn’t posted how he would have allocated the funds he has just attacked for how they were allocated. Step out and say WHO.
Sure you can because one of he alternatives was to buy something else that could score enough runs to make up for the bad pen there was no fix for or win more of the games the Pen didn’t lose for you because it improved the offense!
Maybe even a starting Pitcher!
Who would we have signed instead?
NO ONE! NO ONE would be better than what we signed!
So you wanted them to go with Parnell as closer and not spend any money there correct? I am sure then when Parnell blew games you guys wouldn’t have said a word about Sandy not getting a closer.
“That would be like saying Luis Castillo wasn’t a bad move because there was nobody else better.”
Orlando Hudson. And just because there was no one better that exact moment does not excuse an all in 4 year deal.
And it is a 2 year deal for a guy who could be very easy to deal if he starts pitching well.
Hudson wasn’t a free agent in 08 when the Mets signed Castillo
actually, Castillo was re upped after 07
And you should explain why that excuses the 4 year deal. Did he represent hat much an improvement over Easley?
Right, that’s what I meant – Hudson wasn’t a FA that year.
Castillo was a much better option than Easley because he was 38 and a horrible defender.
As opposed to Castillo who was 32 and a bad defender? Remember, he already had the knee surgery. There was no reason to think he could maintain the agility he relied on. Especially not for 4 years. Easley made in 2 years what Castillo made in a month. the discrepancy in production was not that big.
When the Mets signed him he actually was a good defender.
What your saying now would be like saying the Mets shouldn’t have signed Francisco because his production wasn’t that much different than Parnell.
No, because that is factually wrong.
Again, knee surgery for a guy who 30+ year old who relies on agility? Sure, lets sign him for 4 years.
Well honestly that is a logical alternative to FFF. Signing Rauch and trading for Ramirez and not bringing in FFF. However, that too would have been trashed if Rauch or Parnell struggled and FFF had went to uh.. the Reds and pitched well.
Yeah ok, so we would be better off going with no 2ndbaseman for the season.
Given Castillo’s performance, we actually did go without a 2B.
WRONG DONAL!
February 2, 2009: Signed as a Free Agent with the New York Mets.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/perezol01.shtml#trans
I have no idea how that relates here.
Do you not know that Perez made more money per year for more years? In fact, Perez made more money in one year than Fransisco is signed for total.
How does it relate here?
Just shows how bereft of FACTS you are and will even resort to lying to try and make a point you can’t prove with the truth!
Where did I lie?
Was the Perez deal not for more years?
Was the Perez deal not for significantly more money per year?
1 year of Ollie P= $12 million
The entire value of Fransisco’s deal= $12 million
Ya, no difference there at all.
Actually, forget all that. What does Perez have to do with what we were discussing?
Nothing.
Why do you think he is relevant?
I agree that it was a bad move,
My main point is that the argument TRS and others are using to defend Francisco, can be used for the Castillo signing. So, if you argue that Francisco wasn’t a bad move because there was nobody else, then you would agree that Castillo wasn’t a bad move because there also wasn’t anybody else.
Actually what it is showing is there are actually more than white and black to each decision and we are not privy to all the details. So just as there is a defense to Sandy signing FFF there was a defense to Omar signing Castillo. Hindsight always makes those type deals look worse however and looking at relevant alternatives is a fair way to unbiasedly judge.
Nice catch. I never wanted the Legend of Gritty Mchudson anyway.
To date, Hudson has made as much in his entire career as Castillo did in that deal with the Mets.
Hudson on a year to year deal for at most $6 million? And getting a little better production than Castillo? I’ll sign on for that. (no, not anymore because Hudson is old and not good now)
Hudson was not a free agent the year Castillo signed.
That was in response to trs not wanting him.
As Vinny said that wasn’t an option at the time of the Castillo signing.
Yeah but a two year deal is excusable!
ROFLMAO!
Yup. easier to move or swallow if it turns out to be a mistake.
You mean like he moved carrasco???
You can’t trade injured players. And besides, Carrasco has had hardly any affect on the team. They can stash him and just eat the $1.2 million.
BINGO!
That same lame excuse could be used the year Perez got signed too! There was no one better for the price then either!
Actually you couldn’t have used that excuse for Perez. They really screwed up with that one. Not only did they give Mr. inconsistent a multiyear big time deal but they also gave up the 2 picks they would have gotten for him if he left. They could have went with Garland and Wolf for similar cost AND collected the draft picks AND not been tied down long term. Don’t get me started on that one.
Actually you couldn’t have used that excuse for Perez. They really screwed up with that one. Not only did they give Mr. inconsistent a multiyear big time deal but they also gave up the 2 picks they would have gotten for him if he left.”
REALLY???? Is that why you were saying in metsblog when i went on a rant about perez signing?? You’re a liar!!!!!!! You defended omar and the move to no end…
Alex, if you remember I did not. I did the Castillo one. While I did defend Omar’s reasoning I always said I would have rather had Garland and Wolf + the draft picks.
TRS86, no you didn’t … You mock me and got on me for saying perez deal after the CASTILLO deal was the tomb of omar minaya// that he was digging his own grave, you defended omar to no end.. It’s ok to be wrong once in a while.. You apologize to me when i called you out on it not too long ago
Alex, I can’t search Metsblog because their comments are blocked at work.
However, I did find this from our feuds from 2009.
Hey TRS, your “cousin” over at Matt’s place still loves you.
“ExileInLA says:
August 25, 2009 at 4:26 pm
By the way — when they’re examining Ollie, shouldn’t they look at his head rather than his knee?
Reply
alex242 says:
August 25, 2009 at 4:29 pm
JAJAJAJA, THE REAL SINCE 86 SAID IT WAS A GOOD SIGNING!!!!!
trs86
8/25/2009-6:57pm at 6:57 pm (UTC -4) | Edit comment
Reply
Thats good, he has a poor memory and misses me. You guys know I never wanted Perez. I was on the Garland Wolf train. I understood why Omar did it but I never liked it.”
Seems like what I said then is exactly what I am saying now. I defended Omar’s reasoning for the signing but wanted Wolf and Garland.
Edit comment”
why do your comment say EDIT COMMENT?”" were you tampering with the reply you send me? I in no way remember anytime you saying the mets shouldn’t have signed perez… You wanted him all along while most of us wanted pinero, or garland, or hell even ben sheets… others wanted manny ramirez etc.. NOONE wanted perez more than you and others, after he was signed you defended the move and omar to no end… You’re a liar!
You goof ball, it says edit comment because I am an administrator. LOL. I pulled that right off of Google. You can too if you wish. It wouldn’t show up on Google if I changed it for our conversation today.
Of course your memory is selective. I told you now exactly what I did then. I did not agree with the signing, wanted Garland and Wolf but understood Omar’s reasoning behind the signing. That hasn’t changed.
Even I remember that trs was very vocal in not wanting to spend that money on Perez. I remember you saying you’d rather go with two of a Garland type then sign Perez. And you said that many, many times.
I sadly, was one of those who liked the Perez signing.
It’s OK SRT. I am not sure why I felt I needed to defend myself to Alex to start with. I know my stance and so does anyone who was around at the time. Alex has his own defending to do.
Who woud you have signed instead of Perez TRS?
Lets throw your attempt at excusing the Francisco signing back at you and see what happens?
I have already said that about 4 times in this post Metsie. That is actually something I do. I give you the alternative instead of chickening out. But to rehash, Garland and Wolf. They could have had both for what the Braves gave Lowe for one year and they were only 1 year contracts. The team needed more than just one starter. They needed 2.
Well I gave you a hell of a lot more than two alternatives now didn’t I?
2007 15-10 3.56 ERA 1.311 WHIP
2008 10-7 4.22 ERA 1.402 WHIP
Seems pretty consistent to me!
Got his deal in 2009 and after the deal is when the consistency seemed to take a hike!
Not Before! You could argue that he went back to what he was before he got here!
But if past performance is that relevant explain how Francisco got a contract?
He has been inconsistent as a closer and lost his job yet that was never considered?
Of course how he lost his closer job was considered. It was also considered that he was still less risky than the alternatives… you know the ones you won’t provide.
Obviously I don’t get to count Perez’s previous years because that wouldn’t fit your point. But for the reader lets take a look:
2.98
5.85
6.55
3.56
4.22
1 year of 30+ starts, 0 years of 200+ innings.
How exactly does that show a model of consistency?
Francisco (keep in mind I agree ERA is not a good way to measure a reliever but I am not the one using it to trash him).
3.33
4.91
4.55
3.13
3.83
3.76
3.59
I would assume that in terms of ERA FFF would be labeled much more consistent than OP.
You can also say with him that nobody expected him to pitch as bad as he did.
Considering his ERA the last two seasons as a Met, he produced an ERA under 4.00, we all should expect him the next year to have an ear of 6+? Got it.
*ERA of 6+
Sure, you can defend the Perez signing. However Fransisco had a much more consistent ERA in Texas than Perez ever had and over a longer period. Not to mention there is a big difference in 12 and 36M.
But you also have the age factor. Perez was supposed to be entering the prime of his career while Francisco is towards the end of his.
Sure you have to factor that in, you have to factor in that Perez was a starter, you have to factor in the years, the cost, the available alternatives, the state of the team…
Francisco is toward the end of his career? He’s 32 and only signed for 2 years. That’s hardly near the end of his career. I also remember Francisco and Capps being on your wishlist for possible Met closers before he signed Vin. I had them both on mine.
I did like Francisco going into the season, but I did also feel that they overpaid. Now that Francisco is doing so bad there’s no way now you can say it’s not a bad move(unless he completely turns it around). Saying that it’s not a bad move now, just shows that your biased when it comes to Alderson.
Right now it looks like a bad move, that’s all I’m saying here. I also liked Perez(and I also thought they overpaid for him too), and now I say all the time it was bad move – If Francisco continues down this path, then I’ll feel the same way about him. And I think that’s fair.
Im not saying it’s not a bad move, I’m saying I can’t 2nd guess it, he was one of the guys I liked so because he’s been bad I can’t complain about the signing. I didn’t lke the Rauch signing at all and other than a few hiccups he’s been fine and then there’s the Ramirez trade that I loved and he hasn’t worked out.
‘Maybe the league is waking up and realizing that you’ll never see another Mariano Rivera. The closers role is being phased out in part, but mostly in terms of financial commitment.’
This is an interesting point. One that really hadn’t occurred to me – other than the obvious that no one is Mariano Rivera.
I think teams searching for that nail-it-down closer will still continue for a while. I’ll agree 100% though that the days of paying big bucks for that closer are probably for the most part, over.
Since when does what other teams evaluated as good matter when we are taslking about a GM here, whose biggest contract to date is possibly the worst signing this team made this year?
You guys keep running behind the financial Rock and try to take cover in the record of all the guys Sandy hadn’t managed to get rid of yet, But the bottomline is you guys all said he was an excellent judge of Talent and so far not a single player he has deemed worth having has done a thing to help this team win!
And in your GOOD DAY manifesto, You said these guys were PROOF Sandy was trying to win games this year!
They are winning games alright but DESPITE Sandy’s good day not BECAUSE of it!
“you guys all said he was an excellent judge of Talent”
Really? Where did anyone from the “desert” say that?
Almost all of us have just been saying it’s too early to judge. However, as a GM I guess Sandy is only supposed to get blame for bad signings, no credit for guys like Byrdak and Baxter and none of the credit for the team winning. If they win it’s in-spite of him and if they lose it’s because of him. It just doesn’t work that way.
How long and how big of a sample do you need TRS before you can start judement on hi moves?
Lets us all know so we know when to put your humble pie in the oven?
Baxter and Byrdack is all you got? In Two offseasons thats the only thing you can come up with?
A Bench player and a Reliever?
Anyone full time?
Look I don’t put you entirely in the Sandy propagandist territory, Certainly not on the order of Jessup and his little cliche of parrots.
This pen has turned 7 Games around to losses and tried to turn two other LEADS into losses as well! The Offense bailed them out thankfully!
This same pen that has been the main focus TWO YEARS RUNNING by our GM!
TWO years of focus and it’s gotten worse not better!
If this team should miss the playoffs by only 6 Games will the fact it is early, will the fact Sandy decided not to spend really be a good enough excuse when you know spending 6-10 Mil more instead of counting beans might have got you the playoffs you all claimed were 4 or 5 years away but were here right now if only we didn’t stifle that improvement and hamper it with KMart Relievers?
LOL same ole same ole. I have already told you at the end of 2013 which is originally how long you said you would give him as well.
Now back to your attempt at a point. Those K-Mart relievers, who did you want him to sign? You have yet to answer that.
Who?
NO ONE would be better!
Save that money for something good not just waste two years of it on stuff off the trash heap!
How about….
Ramon Hernandez?
Josh Willingham?
Oh you want Pitcher’s? OK!
Broxton
Oliver
Dotel
Valverde
Nathan
Affeldt
Rhodes
Frasor
Qualls
Capps
Lopez
Any Questions?
Now this is where we get the same ol same ol from you!
Sure I got questions. How many of those guys were considered better alternatives to close at the time and were options to the Mets?
Next question, would you have given Sandy a pass if he signed a guy like Broxton/Lidge to close and then he got injured?
Considered by Whom?
Me?
You?
Or the guy who gets paid to and is supposed to evaluate the talent of the MLB and make good decisions? Maybe with all the problems teams are having with the closer is due to some problem with the way Closers are being evaluated did that ever occurr to you?
Maybe it is the sabermetric approach that failed? Maybe the WHIP many insist on using isn’t as good as some other metric?
In any case doesn’t matter what you or I thought were alternatives niether me or you get paid to do the research to know who should have been a good signing and who wasn’t!
All I know is for two years now we have made no major signings and most of them are with a pen that the consensus of EVERYONE has determined hasn’t been good two years running!
He FOCUSED on the Pen, has that focus paid off yet? Perhaps NOT focusing on it might work considering what FOCUS has gotten us!
If he had signed Lidge or Broxton and they got hurt I would probably already be on record as saying those deals were good deals and not hold him accountable for their getting injured just the SAME as I don’t hold Omar to account for the injuries of 2009!
I do hold Omar to account for the Injury to Beltran in 2010 due his not letting Beltran get the surgery right away and have said as much here many many times!
But the injuries to Wagner, Santana, Reyes, not his fault by any means!
You see here is the problem…
I wasn’t the one who went out on a limb and said Sandy had a good day when these guys were brought in!
If Lidge and Broxton were signed and I had you would have every right to take me to task for saying that!
But I didn’t!
Fair enough, mostly because I am bored of discussing this and know the path it will lead to.
TRS – I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt here…
I’m usre you are bored with the constant conversation but nobody here is forcing you to get involved in the big $H!T pie we are giving to Jessup for being all cheerleader/Sandy propagandist and Wrong!
YOU keep inserting yourself into these discussions and trying to defend them now!
If your bored then I suggest find some other more productive use of your time than trying to pull Jessup’s butt out of the fire!
Or Sandy’s for that matter!
When these guys start doing good (IF that happens) you will have plenty of opportunity to STAY AWAY from the subject of I TOLD YOU SO, YOU SAID, I SAID I’m Right Your WRONG conversations that bore you so much!
But a lot of bad blood back and forth happened this offseason and a lot of insults went back and forth that you may have missed, were not privy to and maybe would not have been involved in if you were here!
This conversation you dotn’t like is chickens coming home to roost!
It’s not about Sandy vs Omar never was!
It was about a minority of poster (4 or 5 at most) who praised every fart Sandy made and now that those farts are leaving a smell around the clubhouse we are calling out who farted!
If that bores you then stay uninvolved but keep defending them and your going to get the same answers you been getting because the fact is so far the ones who complained about those GOOD DAYS have bveen PROVEN right!
Yet where is your constant praise, the every minute praise, the 1,000 comments of praise for Rauch? Isn’t he doing well?
When he does something to win a game for us he will get some!
Two of his wins were won by offense not because he came in and saved the day!
He cost us a game Blown Save and loss
He has 3 Holds
One of his Wins was him blowing a save and getting the win in a walkoff.
Has 1 Save
And two wins coming when Tied! Those two games were fine but not the reason we won!
When he does something worthwhile he will get some praise!
Right now rauch is merely in the NOT BITCHABLE column!
Now that all the unknown financial issues are out of the way and the front office has stabilized, I think that Sandy is officially on the clock now. No more excuses, no more handcuffs. Doesn’t mean he can or wants to go back to a 140m payroll immediately, but wiggle room is now there. The ability to make a decision without finances being the #1 priority is now there.
So lets see how he handles the trade deadline, the draft and this off season. If the team is making a large positive step and they are still in “Turtle” mode I will print up shirts saying “The Core was Right” and will proudly hand them out to anyone who wants them.
Hey now keep in mind the Core(tm) is actually a one man group. I have yet to see any of these other posters claim to be in it.
Back to what you said, I am not sure if I am ready to speed up what I said just because the cloud of Madoff has been lifted. I said at the end of 2013 and for now that’s where I am.
Salty, I’ll gladly accept the shirt… Blue and White please..
With a image of Buddy peeing on Sandy’s leg?
Yankee colors?
Sorry. Couldn’t help it. Bad taste. Carry on.
It’s actually 6 years running the bullpen has been a main focus and for 6 years the bullpen has killed us. We spent big money on 2 different closers and we still had a lousy overall bullpen. Not only did we miss the playoffs by 1 game 2 straight years mainly because of the bullpen they choked away 2 large leads in the last 2 weeks those years and haven’t done much better since. Sandy has not made the bullpen worse he just hasn’t made it any better it still sucks. It sucked before he got here and it still sucks, it’s sucked since a certain cab ride in 2006.
It sucked before he got here”
No sure if you know this fonzie, METS had the 4th best bullpen in baseball last year at the time of the Krod giveaway…
Hey that’s cool so Alderson built a good pen last year. How did our buddy Omar do in that department when it mattered?
Then how do you explain 17 blown leads after the 6th inning at the time of the K-Rod trade Alex? 13 more after the trade. That’s 30 blown leads after the 6th inning 22 after the 7th.
Joe D, Get better fast!
There was a great NYT column today about just how totally unpredictable finding a great closer is. If you are so inclined, read the story that is mostly about Axford. Really surprising.
If may give you some pause about categorically condemning the FF signing.
This over on ESPN:
“I love it,” Francisco said about being serenaded with boos. “You know why? Because later on, they’re going to clap for me. I promise you that.”
Never once during his three interviews did Francisco show signs of frustration, calmly answering questions that were all related to him failing in his role as a closer recently.
He expects to get going in the right direction soon, and hopes the media is still going to want to talk to him when he puts it all together.
Said Francisco: “I expect to see you guys when I get on the roll.”
********************************************************
From your lips to our eyes, Francisco. We’ll be waiting…
Get well soon Joe!
“I’m also tired of the defense that it was better than K-Rod for $17 million. K-Rod was never an option and was traded seven months before we even signed Francisco. One has nothing to do with the other.”
Tell that to those that won’t let it go. You still have people here crying about trading away Rodriguez and trying to push him as better than Fransisco, even though they are having the same production this year.
You want to know the real problem? the bullpen is a symptom, not the disease. They have had 16 games with 2 runs or less difference and are 12-4 in those games. Can’t blame the pitching there. When you have that many close games, anything over a .500 record is pure luck.
The problem is in April, they were scoring fewer than 4 runs a game, so they needed to rely on the pen more. And their pythag was way off from the actual record. Like, over 100 points in winning percentage off.
The big problem is Ike and Duda not hitting the way we need them to. If they were being productive, with all those guys on base for them, we’d be seeing a lot fewer opportunities for the bullpen to blow close games.
Oh, ya.
Get well soon, Joe.
Sorry to hear about you being in the Hospital Joe D. Get well soon.
Over at RDM one of the authors does a post called Sunday Shots where he asks the authors a question and posts the answers. This Sunday he asked If you could go back in time, would you still sign Frank Francisco? My reply was Can you tell me what he will do in the future as a Met 1st so I can know if he is a total bust or not? Once you let me know that I will let you know.
Point being the question I felt was being asked based on what he has done lately so what if he saves the next 20 in a row without a blown save? Will the question be asked again to see if anyone changed their minds?
I’m going to wait a bit longer than 35 games to decide if this was a bad signing or not. The same as I didn’t say it was a great signing after 4 games.
Speedy recovery Joe D.
Joe D.
From one Joe D. to another, get well very soon and in fact, may you be even healthier than before.
Of course, I had to add the “y” to “Joe” so people would not confuse the two of us.
Joe(y)
But there is a connection between KRod being sent packing last July and the trouble we have with the bullpen today. Had KRod still been in New York, there would be no problems with out bullpen, at least as a closer is concerned.
In his last four appearances, coming in as a set-up man, KRod has lowered his ERA from 6.57 to 4.96.
LOL, no there is no connection in this year’s pen and still having Krod. Unless you honestly wanted them to pay him 17.5M when he couldn’t even find one team out there to give him closer money.
Also, when are we going to start comparing Krod to Rauch? Setup man to Setup man?
Does K-Rod make 17.5 Mil this year?
nuff said about this cling to a phantom 17.5 mil that doesn’t actually exist!
Nope because unfortunately for Krod the Mets traded him and no one wanted him as a closer. However, if you are expecting that the Mets and Krod could have worked out a multiyear deal for less? Why would they have? No one else wanted to either.
HAHAHAHAHAHA Too Funny…
No one wanted K-Rod to be a closer but yet he makes more money than Francisco so tell me really who was deemed by the league to be a better pitcher?
Who was fighting to get Francisco pray tell when we bid against ourselves and offered him a two year 12 MIl deal?
Huh what other offers did he have?
Yes someone DID want him as a closer! Only one mind you!
The guy who has just been proven WRONG for thinking that!
I wonder who that might be?
No he makes 8 million to set up for the Brewers cause NOT ONE MLB TEAM WANTED HIM TO CLOSE GAMES for their team. 17.5 was only if he was a Met.
I am not sure that no one wanted him to close but we can be sure that offer did not total the 8M he received. I would imagine he MIGHT have been offered something along the lines of 1/4M or so.
Rodriguez’s peripheral numbers last year were mediocre. Every game was a tightrope walk. He was lucky. And his K/BB this year is not good.
Oh, he got his ERA down from 6.57? How nice. The problem is it got there in the first place.
Of course, if Fransisco has a good week, he’ll do the same thing.
Wanted to add that Krod has only given up two runs in two of his last twelve appearances and one run in the same span. At the same time, he has given up ten hits and two walks and struck out eight in his last 11.1 innings over those 12 appearances. Last night’s run was un-earned.
His poor overall stats to date were due to giving up up four runs on four hits and two walks in 1.1 innings in back to back performances April 13 and 17.
If Sandy had the financial leverage to keep him but didn’t, that was a bad move that led to other poor decisions in which we are feeling the repricussions this year as well. We are also not seeing the money saved by not being committed to KRod, Castillo, Perez and Reyes being reinvested as we were told.
Hi Joey D,
You told me that if the worst thing people say about you is that you repeat yourself too much you was OK with it. So let me say, Joey D you repeat yourself too much.
Hi North,
But this is in reply to subject “Francisco Was A Bad Idea”. The reason for Francisco being the closer in 2012 is directly related to the absence of KRod and that is why I initially raised the issue once again. When the subject is about our bullpen problems and what led to them, I do not know how reference to the KRod situation can be left out or viewed inconsequential in it’s multi-year effect.
Regarding why I specifically repeated myself with his game log, it’s in response to some again saying KRod has been pitching poorly this season.
Hi Joey, LOL
Again, the Mets were not going to and should not have paid Krod 17.5M. Just as no one else wanted Krod to close, the Mets didn’t either, especially at 17.5 M.
How much do you think the top offer Krod had from any team to close was this year? Do you think it was more than the 8M he took to be setup man considering how much he whined when he was a setup man last year? He took arbitration out of desperation and this is what we are whining about?
Are you honestly saying the Mets should have paid Krod 17.5M to close this year? Just making sure.
Again, why are we not comparing Rauch and Krod? Setup to Setup?
2.95 ERA, .978 WHIP 3.5M for 1 year.
4.96 ERA, 1.408 WHIP 8M after accepting arbitration.
Is anyone paying K-Rod 17.5 mil this year?
NO so it is a fantasy hypothetical!
We wouldn’t have to pay him 17.5 mil!
No one else is!
SO your question is worthless as it means nothing compared to reality!
In his last 10 appearances, he’s given up 5 earned in 9.1 IP with only 6 Ks. You have to take the whole picture in. Not just nitpick his last 4 appearances.
By the way, the 4 appearances before last night came against 3 of the worst offenses in the NL.
Actually, there were two bad outings in his last twelve appearances. He also did not allow an earned run in nine of those last twelve apperances.
I think those percentages would make anyone happy with their closer.
Heeeee issssss nooooooooooot theeeeeee closssssseeeeer.
Again, why are we not comparing him to Rauch instead?
Take out Rauch’s one really bad outing and you get 2 ER, 9 hits and 1 BB in 14 2/3 innings. WOW what value. Why aren’t we championing this signing?
TR,
That’s why I mentioned the jury has to be out regarding Rauch. For myself, it depends upon him being more steady with a bad performance here and there instead of having streaks of either being hot or cold. I think that is vital because Jon is going to be used in late inning game situations and cold streaks could help lead to losing streaks.
What a double standard Joey. Rauch has only given up a run in 3 outings this season. 3 runs in 1 and 1 run each in the other two. That’s over the course of 17 games.
So again, lets compare Krod’s results to Rauch… Rauch has performed MUCH better so far. So why are we not giving Sandy credit for the Rauch signing? Look how much of a better setup guy he is than Krod and MUCH cheaper at that.
Krod
0 ERA 4 games
9.35 ERA 10 games
0.00 ERA 4 games
Model of consistency.
Does this sound like a double standard?
“That’s why I mentioned the jury has to be out regarding Rauch.”
- I was saying I need to see more from him.
Why my hesitation?
“For myself, it depends upon him being more steady with a bad performance here and there instead of having streaks of either being hot or cold. I think that is vital because Jon is going to be used in late inning game situations and cold streaks could help lead to losing streaks.”
- It’s because Jon just began a bad streak (3 out of 5 performances) so there is no way yet to measure if his early success was due to the league being unfamiliar with him and his velocity or it’s just a few bad outings and nothing more.
“What a double standard Joey”.
- Where is it, TR? Rauch had a poor 2011 so I’m just holdng off final judgement only because it is too early to determine if we are gettng the Jon of last season or the year before. Krod has sported ERAs of 2.64 and 2.20 both those years so his ability is not, at this point, a question.
Krod is not struggling, he’s pitching great if you take blah blah blah…
Rauch, the jury is out he is inconsistent.
Again, lets compare the two. Setup man to Setup man.
I’ve had this discussion with Joey D regarding his method of comparisons TRS.
He uses the most recent of Rauch only but uses Krod’s season overall to compare the 2.
Maybe applying the most recent of both Rauch and Krod would work better.
Over the last 5 appearances:
Krod – 0/W, 1/L 2/H, 5.0/IP, 5/H, 3/R, 2/ER, 0/BB, 5/SO,
3.60/ERA, .250/BAA
Rauch – 0/W, 1/L 1/S, 1/BS, 4.2/IP, 7/H, 2/R, 2/ER, 0/BB, 3/SO,
3.86/ERA, .355/BAA
Over the entire season:
Krod – 0/W, 3/L, 1/S, 1/BS, 7/H, 16.1/IP, 15/H, 10/R, 9/ER, 8/BB, 14/SO,
4.96/ERA, .238/BAA
Rauch – 3/W, 1/L 1/S, 2/BS, 3/H, 15.1/IP, 12/H, 5/R, 5/ER, 3/BB, 7/SO,
2.93/ERA, .207/BAA
TR,
Would rather you had addressed my points specificaly, i.e., the reasons I believe there is not yet enough time to judge Rauch, KRod’s overall steady performance this season and our bullpen situation would be better had we retained Rodriguez as our closer.
Also, it’s not a matter of having one or the other but actually having both.
How in the heck has Krod been steady? 0 era 4 game 10 era 10 games 0 era 4 games.
North,
Please remember the points I was making.
There is not enough time to judge Rauch simply because we have to take into account his season last year and whether or not his early success and recent struggles had been signs of the league catching up to him or showing he could be a streak pitcher. We just don’t know yet.
I referred to KRod’s game log to point out the chronological tendancies of his season thus far and I remember you said I had a valid point but had not originally expressed it in such manner.
BTW – does following up on your post again make me guilty of repeating myself?
Hi Joey D,
Like I told you before it’s your method of using different standards for each in your comparisons that I pointed out.
Joey can you quantify what you mean by”league catching up to Rauch”. Do you realize that most of is career has been spent in the NL East where he has been a very good relief pitcher 7 years in the NL 3.57 1.17 WHIP, 5 of those years in the NL East with Washington 3.24 ERA 1.12 WHIP. You can honestly justify paying a declining closer 17.5 for one season? Or you can just admit you just despise the GM and would get on him even if the roles were reversed and K-Rod was still here making 17.5 pitching to a 5 ERA. You would be saying Sandy should’ve figured out a way to remove K-Rod and that hideous 17.5 million dollar option and figured out a way to get a much less expensive closer to perform at that level. I’d bet the farm either way you would take issue with how the closer role shaped up. Do remember that 29 other teams did not offer K-Rod a closers job and he accepted arbitration to be a setup man.
K-Rod has been a steady performer this year? Are you serious Joey? I know you can’t stand Alderson and look for any reason to get on him but you can’t be serious when you say K-Rod has been a steady performer this year. That’s like saying for 10 appearances Francisco has been lights out. SMH.
Why don’t we just start calling Rauch “SWEDEN” where you guys can flee to and seek asylum in WWII!
No one has given up on Rauch yet!
I am even on record as saying I see some potential in Rauch!
He is the one guy who has gotten most of the Wins when tied and one where Francisco screwed the pooch!
NEWSFLASH!
From the looks of it Neither is francisco! LOL
One of the things I never got with KRod is why fans seem to forget his arrest in the Mets clubhouse? Do you think its possible the Wilpon’s wanted him gone regardless of anything simply based on his embarrassing behavior?
I can tell you that day is the day I was done with KRod. I don’t expect players to be perfect but I’m not going to cheer for a guy who shames the team like that.
I’d rather see the team fail than be forced to root for a guy like that. Maybe I’m different, but I’m not changing on that.
Also, there is no a closer in the game that is worth $17mil. None. Nada. Sometimes you need to make tough choices to rid yourself of bad decisions. His contract was a bad one. No matter what you think of Omar, Sandy, Tim Teufel or Randy Niemann. It was a bad value.
You’re going to find more and more that teams stop paying closers like they are third basemen. I can appreciate the closers role, but its so overrated by the media and fans.
Mariano is the best ever. Nobody will ever be as good as he was and nobody was ever close to as good as he was.
Hi Jessep,
I thought his days with the Mets were gone after that 2010 incident and still think he has little to be desired as a human being. If it was a question of moral integrity, I would have supported the decision 100 percent. But that was the one element absent on the part of the front office in 2011. I think had they raised the issue as being part of making their decision, the feeling would be different. But it was always about the contract and the $17 million bonus.
” But it was always about the contract and the $17 million bonus.”
LOL, well obviously it was mostly about the contract. However, the lack of desire to work out a longer term deal could have been the former. I still can’t understand how you think it would have been a good move to pay Krod 17.5M to close this year when he was forced to accept arbitration to be a setup guy.
All I’m saying is I think from that point, they were done with him and saw the opportunity to dump him and they took it.
Remember the whole court stuff, talk of trying to void his contract?
I think they saw the idea of paying him more than guys like Wright, even Reyes potentially forced their hand and they just wanted him gone.
Frankly, I’m glad they did it. I was happy when they got him because it was supposed to help us win it all. It failed (again) and then he embarrassed the franchise. Sorry, I’m not sorry he’s gone. He wasn’t worth his contract on the field and certainly wasn’t worth it off the field.
Again, valid points from both sides of the issue but the contract and bonus was what the Wilpons agreed to and so they had to decide whether to continue overpaying him or being without a closer altogether – taking into consideration the point raised by many that few closers were available to begin with making it difficult to replace him in that role.
He did last season have a 2.64 ERA and 1.298 WHIP with 23 saves, all with the Mets, in half a season.
Ahhh Yes…you THINK….
You also thought this:
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/12/alderson-had-a-good-day.html
I’m not sure what posting (advertising) my post does or proves? I’m still happy Alderson saw that the bullpen was a big weakness in 2011 and did everything he could to fix it for the short term.
I don’t think Francisco is an 8 ERA pitcher. I’m comfortable knowing it’s May 15th. There were limited to no better options out there. a 12mil/2 years deal for Francisco is not a bad idea.
Just because a move doesn’t work, doesn’t mean it was a bad idea.
LOL It proves you wrong for one thing….
“Just because a move doesn’t work, doesn’t mean it was a bad idea.”
Ok I guess that makes Perez Castillo and Bay not bad ideas either right?
“I don’t think Francisco is an 8 ERA pitcher.”
Yes you don’t THINK, But thats what he is right now isn’t he?
no, some ideas are bad from the beginning, no matter how they work out. And remember, on MMO, the core has banned hindsight (the TAgee ammendment to the constitution).
signing a 32 YO 2B with declining skills that need operations on both knees for 4 years, is a bad idea.
Yes and Francisco was one of them…
Didn’t even fit the intended LONG TERM PLAN Jessup went on and on about but he liked it anyway didn’t he? Why?
Because it fit his idea that we should be playing for the Long Term?
Or the guy whose butt he crawled up thinking thats what he was going to do decided not to do it and go after crap?
If you were an Angel fan would you be getting on Jerry DiPoto for signing Albert Pujols and his 195 batting average and 1 HR nearly a quarter of the way into the season? Nope. Only if Sandy signed him. If Francisco turns it around and finishes strong are you gonna admit you were wrong? Nope cause you’ll never admit your wrong do you? Omar 20 Sandy 15 right?
No because Pujols doesn’t have a history of this type of performance Francisco does!
No Metsie, Francisco has a history of being a solid relief pitcher for his career. he does not have a history of being Mel Rojas reincarnated. Pitching in a hitters paradise in Texas for most of his career and another hitters heaven in Toronto for one year he’s has a very solid career with 2007 being his only blemish coming into this year. I’m pretty sure if he was pitching to a 3.55 era like last year you wouldn’t have a problem. After 17 appearances last year his ERA was 6.14, he wound up pitching extremely well in the 2nd half. If Kirk Nieuwenhuis catches that popup against San Fran his ERA is 6 like last year. He did not allow an earned run in 25 of his last 28 games last year and 15 straight without allowing a run. Same in 2010 bad start, strong finish, 2009 was the total opposite 17 scoreless appearances in a row to start the season. Allowed runs in 8 appearances allowed nothing in 43 appearances. 2 bad outings drove his ERA to 3.83 but 43-51 scoreless outings is pretty damn good. 2008 46 appearances without an earned run 12 appearances allowing an earned run. He’s actually had a pretty good history.
He was so solid he lost his JOB as closer right?
Lost his closers job like K-Rod.
K-rod didn’t lose his closer’s job…her never had it in Mil and he never lost it when he was here!
He was our closer to the very end!
So he didn’t lose it due to performance just circumstances!
If we had traded him to a team that didn’t have a closer he would be one right now!
And if he hadn’t traded him at all we would be at the top of the NL East right now!
Hi Metsi,
HI Metsi,
One way to hypothesize what our record might have been is to treat KRod’s performances with Milwaukee as save situations and compare that to the performances of the Met bullpen in save siutations. Not scientific, but at least it’s something (for even the 8th inning set-up man is just as important as the closer).
This is KRod’s breakdown for 2012:
2 Earned Runs Allowed: 4 games
1 Earn Run Allowed: 1 game
0 Earned Runs Allowed: 13 games
I’ll leave it to you to compile the combined Met closer comparison but I don’t think it’s 14 out of 18 allowing one run or less or even 18 allowing no more than two.
Again, not scientific and won’t settle the matter for I’m sure he’s faced teams we haven’t and vice versa, but at least it’s something to fiddle around with based on actual performances.
Joe
one question for jessup and donal…Is Alderson paying you for all your lies and crap kissing his blah blah blas?. Please tell us that at least its your job to make fools of yourselves!!!!! If not you two are the dumbest posters in history of the net. Especially donal who can’teven express a th
And see the problem with fans like you is you want him to fail. You need him to fail. You don’t care that he’s on your favorite team, you care about the GM that signed him.
I didn’t like Barajas, but I never cheered against him. When Francisco is having trouble, you probably rush to MMO to say I told you so.
There are 25 men in uniform that I cheer for. I hope everybody from Jason Bay, to Miguel Batista to Frank Francisco do well. Despite what you or some of your minions think I never cheered against Jose. Never. I just didn’t want the Mets making a financial commitment to him that I do not feel he’s worth. I don’t want the Mets offering Daniel Murphy a 5 year deal tomorrow, but I still perk up every time he’s at bat.
Maybe, just maybe if you spent less time trying to be the smartest person in your padded cell and more time being a fan, you’d enjoy it more?
I am rooting for the 2012 Mets. I don’t care which GM signed them or which player got what this year instead of KRod.
Try enjoying the game more and complaining less.
No we fans don’t want him to fail! I was very supportive of Sandy when he got here.
But then he started making moves!
Moves that have added ZERO to the team we already had and actually COST us some wins what we had were in the proccess of getting us!
I was hoping Sandy would NOT do what YOU proposed he should do which is to trade All Stars for No Stars!
The whole spiel you and your friends fed us about “Having So Many Holes To Fill” and therefore “Needed to reduce Salary” and Shop KMart to fill them all?
What has he filled?
That whole spiel about how bad the team was and far away from winning so that we needed to purge All Stars and rebuild the Minors so we could compete 4 years from now?
How much time has passed from then to now? 4 years?
None of us have ever cheered against Francisco either!
Thats just another attempt at you to paint those who are telling it like it as as NOT fans because we refuse to HIDE from the truth which you have done until today!
We are too busy CRINGING when Francisco gets to root against him truth be told!
No you didn’t like barajas or Francouer and no one ever accused YOU of rooting against them now did they?
But you were free to slam them for their OBP and other shortcomings weren’t you?
Time to face the truth Jessup you were WRONG not only about the GOOD DAY but the state of the team you suggested would MAKE that day a good day!
This team was NOT so far away, Omar did NOT forsake the Minor leagues that you said made that assessment true and so far the only thing you have said that is correct is:
“I DON’T THINK….”
I guess I can see your point. Finishing under 500 with allstars and a bloated payroll is better than finishing under 500 with developing kids and a much lower payroll. More fun to watch the overpaid underperforming allstars .Naaaaaaaah.
Yeah well if he had the allstars today they might be leading the NLEast by 3 or 4 games right now!
Cause thats how many games his moves have cost us this year!
No if we had had those allstars we’d be in last place since Reyes and K-Rod have done squat this season.
Wrong again….
Beltran would be playing RF, Duda 1st and Davis would be on the bench!
K-Rod would be closing out GAMES we would be at the top of the division!
I forgot to ask… what did Tejada hit in yesterday’s game ?
Metsie, how STUPID he’s looking right about now eh? had a good day…good day my arse!!!
Do you look stupid for saying 69 wins?
I said 68
LOL, the fact is that it is so early NO ONE can claim that they won any fictitious battle to start with. It’s Mid-May. 68 wins could still be right as could the decisions to sign FFF and Rauch. Right now it is certainly looking like more than 68 wins and that FFF was a bad move. Yet just like judging Sandy after 1.5 years it is too early to tell the future.
This.
Do they have 69 Win already I hadn’t noticed?
If not whats your point? That it is early?
Well your never going to get 69 Wins at the rate the Pen is blowing leads are you?
Noone in here look more stupid than you, you have your own blog and don’t even attend to it, ciriticize and bash this site yet you’re here 24/7… How stupid is that??? With that being said it’s more likely this team wins 69 games than francisco being an elite closer, we’ve seen this before, he’s been demoted twice from the closer job in two different teams… Somehow he’s still the closer.. SMH
Alex my friend. I can multitask. In fact I am commenting on both sites right now… Wowsa… not sure if I can handle it.
Now again to your avoidance of the point. No one said he would be an elite closer. All we were looking for was serviceable. Right now it looks like he won’t be but right now we are on pace for 90 wins. It’s early. There’s time for both sides to be vindicated or embarrassed in this phony war.
92 wins, but whos counting?
TRS, My point was/is why in the hell we overpaid for this guy?? Funny how there were ZERO reports about a deal or anything like that, then as soon as reyes signed with the marlins sandy alderson found around $20+ million to sign FFF, Rauch and trade for ramirez and torres.. Isn’t that a bit rushed? Then to make matters even worst, we have that alderson butt kisser jesseP write an article about him “HAVING A GOOD DAY”.. How else are we fans supposed to feel?? He’s been a terrible GM to say the least, IMHO, the worst GM this franchise has EVER seen.. And it’s not even close.
Again to place it in the proper context who did you want? According to Metsie we didn’t overpay by the way. We paid market value because that’s what we paid him… LOL.
I can see your justification of not signing him. I would have been fine with just Rauch and then a reclamation guy. My point is that it is too early to say that it was a bad signing just as it’s too early to say you were wrong on your 69 wins just as it’s too early to say Sandy stinks. Time will tell all of these things.
Here is the thing alex…
I know full well Jessup isn’t STUPID!
Arrogant and Full of himself YES but not Stupid! Donal is STUPID!
He is just a Kid who thinks he knows it all and has seen it all but he isn’t a complete dolt!
His arrogance shows in just about every post and article Jessup writes and right now he is squirming because that Ego won’t allow him to admit all the things he was wrong about!
It’s now not about what the team is doing or what it could be doing!
All of his stupidity is about trying to save face so he can continue acting the arrogant fool and calling anyone who won’t agree with him crazy stupid or a BAD FAN!
Truth is I don’t really care who liked what move when provided you say your piece and don’t fight with everyone who doesn’t agree like they are trying to take your kids from you!
Which is why I have been pushing the issue as hard as I have been!
Not because I don’t like Jessup but all of the arguments, all of the insults, all of the petty childish antics stem from that arrogance and EGO he uses to dismiss facts and malign posters!
And if it’s not him it’s one of his Parrots!
The best way to usurp foolish pride and arrogance is to unmask it and show them how being wrong makes you Human. Being wrong an arrogant about it makes you a fool!
I think Jessup is smart enough to know being human is human being a fool is embarasssing!
You have to love a post from somebody complaining that all I do is insult when the bulk of their post consists of:
-Donal is STUPID!
-Arrogant and Full of himself YES
-He is just a Kid who thinks he knows it all and has seen it all but he isn’t a complete dolt!
-all of the petty childish antics stem from that arrogance and EGO he uses to dismiss facts and malign posters
-And if it’s not him it’s one of his Parrots!
And you need to stop with this idea that I malign posters. You, Alex, Bayonne and Maniac are the 4 that are constantly mentioning me or coming at me.
If you took a straw poll, I’d guarantee you more people have issues with what you guys say than what I say. Just because you talk the loudest and comment whenever I sneeze, doesn’t mean you’re in the majority.
Nobody else ever says boo to me except you 4. I’ll gladly stand on the other side of the aisle if it means I’m nothing like you 4.
Yep just serving you a dish of your own favorite Recipie there Jesse!
You do it to everyone and now that someone does it to you…
You Whine like the little young baby you really are!
Don’t like it do you?
Well when you learn how to discuss things with people like a REAL Adult and don’t run to insults simply because they don’t buy your fantasy you will avoid such issues in the future!
And acting like you know better than everyone else would also keep you from these embarassing moments you find yourself in right now!
Don’t you think if the Wilpons really wanted that they would have just stuck to voiding his contract instead of letting him play in 2011?
More What If that is irrelevant and just excuse making wyhen they had much better opprotunities to what you are claiming is the goal!
Mariano is the best ever. Nobody will ever be as good as he was and nobody was ever close to as good as he was”
i thought YOU SAID carig kimbrel was the best????
No… you said I said that.
I never said that, ever in my life. I’ve never said any closer in baseball was ever better than Mariano. Not Sutter, not Smith, not Eck, not Kimbrel.
I said at the time of our discussion that Kimbrel was the best closer in the NL
Today, May 15th, 2012 I will say the same statement. From Opening Day 2011 through May 15, 2012… I believe Craig Kimbrel is the best closer in the NL.
He just keeps making up unbelievable stuff.
I also said I’d take Kimbrel over KRod. So the only way you think I said Kimbrel is the best closer is if you thought KRod was the best?
I’ll still take Kimbrel over KRod.
In fact, since 2011 I will take my chances with Kimbrel over any closer in baseball except Mariano.
If that makes me a bad guy, then I’ll just have to figure out a way to live with the fact I think a dominating 23 year old closer is very good.
Should he reinvest that money for the sake of reinvesting that money or should he wait until it’s worthwhile to reinvest that money? Did he say all of that money would be reinvested immediately?
Or that it would all be reinvested into the 2012 MLB team?
Fonzi,
The reason I question – and that is only questioning, not stating as fact – about if it’s possible the league might catch up with Rauch is that he has been in the American League for two years and hitters might have to get to know him again. It was mentioned by a few scouts they didn’t notice any change in Capuano’s velocity from the beginning of last year to the end but where he was fooling batters at the beginning, he was not from June on cause they got to recognize him since they had not faced him for a while due to injury. If he was coming off his 2010 season, then there would be no question at all but he did have a poor 2011 so we don’t know yet if the problems that beset him last season are continuing or not.
And North
Most everyone in this forum is guilty of repeating the same argument over and over again so kindly stop pointing this out only when it comes to me. Doing so makes one wonder if there is a bit of nastiness behind the facade of politeness. At least others who make personal attacks, be it against me or anybody else, do it openly.
I see so it does bother you to be told you repeat yourself. That’s all you had to say to begin with rather than what you did. No prob.
Oh, and Fonzie,
You, I and most everyone else in this forum are guilty of being either pro or anti Sandy Alderson and shaping their opinions based on those biases.
I’m neither pro nor anti Sandy. I am willing to give him more than 18 months before I condemn him unlike others who call him the franchises worst GM or the other side who thinks he reinvented baseball and can do no wrong. I have seen far more anti than pro here on this site.
I totally understand the absolute mess he took over and totally understand that he wasn’t coming in here with a magic wand and transform the nightmare the team had become into a perennial contender overnight.
I give him his due for what he accomplished as the architect of a great Oakland team however just like the stockmarket past performance is no gaurantee of future results. I’m not quick to rush judgement like the majority. To some that means pro, makes no difference to me. I am not going to make up stories to disparage him like Metsie has becuase he dislikes how others view him.
“I’m neither pro nor anti Sandy. I am willing to give him more than 18 months before I condemn him unlike others who call him the franchises worst GM or the other side who thinks he reinvented baseball and can do no wrong. I have seen far more anti than pro here on this site.”
Man oh man, did you write this or me? This is exactly what I have been saying since I started coming back here.
Is there an echo in here? lol
North,
At first it didn’t bother me, it was just “repeating” it again that you could understand why I might have had second thoughts as to the intention. If it wasn’t meant in that vain, then accept my apologies.
Just for the record after I made you aware the other day that in my opinion you repeat yourself more than I care for I also said your well with your right to do so as often as you wish. Since that time I have mentioned it once. My advice is don’t say what you don’t mean. Like,
“Yes, I’m aware of my tendancy to repeat things often – let that be the worst thing said about me and I’ll be fine.”
“Just for the record after I made you aware the other day that in my opinion you repeat yourself more than I care for I also said your well with your right to do so as often as you wish. Since that time I have mentioned it once. My advice is don’t say what you don’t mean. Like,
“Yes, I’m aware of my tendancy to repeat things often – let that be the worst thing said about me and I’ll be fine.”
HiNorth,
I did indeed say that – but that was under the presumption that the word wasn’t going to be “repeated”. I think “repeating” the point would bother anybody, don’t you?
Joe
.
” I think “repeating” the point would bother anybody, don’t you?”
Yup, I completely agree. LOL
Touche, TR,
I think you got us all on that one!
8)
I’m glad you caught that TRS.
Thx