24
2012
Farm Report: Wheeler Dazzles ‘Em In New Britain, Vaughn Homers In St. Lucie Win
An article by 
Wheeler Was Virtually Unhittable
Buffalo, Travel Day
Herd Rumblings: Buffalo (26-20) had an off-day on Wednesday as they traveled from Indianapolis back to Buffalo. The Bisons look to get back on the winning track after dropping three in a row at 7:05 p.m. on Thursday, when they play the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre Yankees in Buffalo with the Yankees as the home team. No that’s not a misprint, SWB is playing all their home games on the road this year while their stadium is being completely rebuilt. Matt Harvey (4-1, 4.31) will make the start for Buffalo, while the Yankees send Adam Warren (2-2, 4.98) to the hill.
Binghamton 8, New Britain 1
By Tim Burns
Raul Reyes Went 3-for-5 With A Three-run Bomb Wednesday
The fifth time was a charm for the Binghamton Mets as they finally found a way to solve the New Britain Rock Cats, defeating them in a big way by a score of 8-1 on Wednesday afternoon. Zack Wheeler (4-2, 1.97) pitched a gem to get the win for the visitors, his eight innings worth of work the most in a single game for the Mets top prospect in 2012.
The Rock Cats were three up, three down in the first three innings against Wheeler. Their first base-runner of the game came in the form of a walk issued to LF Chris Herrmann by Wheeler in the bottom of the fourth. Herrmann was subsequently forced out at second as part of a double-play to end the frame.
Reese Havens Hitting On Wednesday
New Britain’s lone run came in the bottom of the fifth inning, when Wheeler walked CF Aaron Hicks. Hicks then stole second, and advanced to third during the next at bat. DH Nathan Hanson’s single to right field would score Hicks for the Rock Cats only run of the game.
The sixth and seventh innings were one, two, three for Wheeler as well. In the eighth, Wheeler allowed a double by C Danny Lehmann, but he never advanced further than second base as the following New Britain batter popped out to end the inning.
First-baseman Eric Campbell Is A Connecticut Native
Final numbers for Wheeler on the day were eight innings pitched, one run on only two hits, six strikeouts and two walks; definitely Wheeler’s best outing of the season so far.
Adrian Rosario was brought in for the ninth to finish off the Rock Cats, and finish off he did. One pop-out, one-fly out, and one strikeout later, and the B-Mets defeated New Britain for the first time this season.
Den Dekker Had His 17-Game Hit Streak Snapped
The B-Mets scored their first run of the game in the second inning courtesy of a wild pitch with the bases loaded by New Britain starter David Bromberg, allowing Juan Centeno to score easily from third base.
With the run scored by the Rock Cats in the fifth, the score would remain tied at 1-1 until the B-Mets bats came alive in the final two innings of the game. In the top of the eighth, the B-Mets plated two runs with DH Raul Reyes and 1B Eric Campbell scoring. The two runs would prove to be all that the B-Mets needed to win the game, but they didn’t stop there.
Juan Centeno Leads Off First
In the top of the ninth, the B-Mets scored another five runs against the Rock Cats. Three of the five runs came by way of Raul Reyes’ third home run in a week, a wicked shot that bounced high up off the screen of the the right-field fair-pole at New Britain Stadium. Three of the next four B-Mets batters walked to load the bases. The walks kept coming for the B-Mets at this point, as SS Sean Kazmar was issued the free base scoring Campbell from third. The next batter Pedro Zapata was hit by a pitch, scoring 2B Reese Havens from third. The onslaught ended when CF Matt den Dekker struck out to finish the inning.
Den Dekker’s hitting streak ended at 17 games on Wednesday afternoon. “Double-D” went 0-for-4 with two walks, a strikeout, and a run scored. Raul Reyes continued to swing a hot bat going 3-for-5 with two runs scored. Eric Campbell was 1-for-3 with two runs scored, and Juan Centeno was 1-for-4 with a run scored in the game. Reyes, Campbell, and Centeno were the only B-Mets to have hits in the game.
Zack Wheels And Deals
B-Mets Buzz: If you thought today was an early game, just wait until tomorrow. The B-Mets and Rock Cats meet for the final game of the series at 10:35 tomorrow morning at New Britain Stadium. The B-Mets will send Jenrry Mejia (0-0, 3.00) to the mound in his second rehab start against the Rock Cats righty B.J. Hermsen (2-1, 2.57). After the game, the B-Mets will make their way home where they will open up a four game series against the New Hampshire Fisher Cats.
St. Lucie 8, Daytona 7
By Clayton Collier
Narrowly avoiding their third straight heart-breaking loss, the St. Lucie Mets rallied late to best the Daytona Cubs 8-7.
It started out looking like the Mets would be in the drivers seat for the entire game as they took a 4-0 lead by the end of the fourth inning. Between two throwing errors in the second and third and back-to-back home runs in the fourth by Cory Vaughn and Francisco Pena, the St. Lucie bats jumped all over Daytona starter Frank Del Valle.
Then it was the Cubs turn to start hitting. Chase Huchingson was dominant through the first three innings of the ballgame, but struggled from then on. In the fourth, Huchingson walked in a run to cut St. Lucie’s lead to three. Then in the next frame, Huchingson imploded, surrendering a three-run bomb to tie up the ballgame at four a piece. He would finish the game completing 5+ frames surrendering five runs (four earned) on four hits and an ugly five walks. It only got worse when Kyle Allen (2-0, 2.40) came in to relieve Huchingson in the sixth, surrendering a single and a triple to hand Daytona a 7-5 lead.
Come the top of the eighth however, St. Lucie went to work, scoring three runs on five hits to take an 8-7 lead. With Cory Vaughn, Francisco Pena, Blake Forsythe, Alonzo Harris and Wilfredo Tovar all getting on base in the inning, the fighting mentality in this ballclub that has eluded them in this series so far seemed to have returned.
After a scoreless eighth by Pedro Beato, Adam Kolarek slammed the door with a shutout frame in the ninth to pick up his fifth save of the year and hand the St. Lucie Mets their first win of this series in Daytona.
Lucie Logistics: Alonzo Harris went 1-for-5 on the day, but his streak of five straight games with a double came to an end. Cory Vaughn appears to have busted out of his slump with a 3-for-5 performance including a home run and a leadoff single in the eighth that proved critical in yesterday’s victory. Rylan Sandoval took another 0-for-3 today and has yet to get a knock since his demotion to St. Lucie. Francisco Pena stayed hot, going 2-for-4 on the day with a solo shot, he now has 11 RBIs in his last ten games. The Mets look to go for a series tie tomorrow to finish up the road trip in Daytona at 7:05pm. Johan Almonte (3-0, 5.25) will throw for St. Lucie while Ryan Searle (1-0, 4.50) makes his first start of the season for Daytona.
Savannah 6, Charleston 3
By Sean Kenny
RHP Domingo Tapia had a strong outing today, and the offense provided all of the cushion he would need to ensure the sweep against the RiverDogs, and a 6-3 win.
Tapia (4-2, 4.29) had his fourth straight quality outing, going six innings allowing three runs on seven hits, six strikeouts and two walks. Tapia had great control today, and has continued to advance on his hit-or-miss offerings. As long as Tapia maintains control and his ability to strikeout people, he is an effective pitcher with a high upside.
LHP Carlos Vazquez came out for an inning and allowed a walk and struck out one. RHP Jared West came out for the two inning save, striking out two and allowing no hits, his first save of the season.
The offense struck quickly as they have this whole series, putting across all six runs before the fifth inning. A two-RBI double by 3B Aderlin Rodriguez in the first and a 1B Brian Harrison RBI groundout scoring LF Dustin Lawley. DH Gilbert Gomez had an RBI single in the second.
The Gnats would push across the last two runs of the game in the fourth on a SS Luis Nieves double-play ground-out and another Gilbert Gomez RBI single. The bats were consistent today, with CF Travis Taijeron being the only Gnat without a hit.
Gnats Notes: T.J. Rivera ended his hit streak at three games, going 0-for-3 with a walk and a strikeout. Aderlin Rodriguez had another great offensive game going 2-for-4 with two RBI and two doubles, but did make his ninth error on the season at third. The question has never been about his bat, but his glove and where it will fit on the field. Gilbert Gomez, the newest Gnat went 3-for-4 with two RBI. Since his call up, Gomez is hitting .500 (5-for-10). After splitting a four-game series at home against the Augusta GreenJackets last week, the Sand Gnats now head to Augusta for a four-game set beginning Thursday night at 7:05. Savannah will send righty Tyler Pill (3-3, 2.29) to the hill. He will be opposed by right-hander Clayton Blackburn (1-2, 4.26).
Andrew, Clayton, Sean, Tim and Petey
About the Author: Satish Ram
I am a Senior Writer and Editor here at MetsMerized - where I specialize in Minor League coverage. I have been on the staff since 2007 and I am currently in my third semester of college in New York City. You can find me at www.facebook.com/SatishRam or @SilverHeatMMO. Feel free to message me - I love talking about the Mets or baseball overall with anybody.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 23 | 18 | .561 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 19 | .548 | 0.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 22 | .476 | 3.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 23 | .410 | 6.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 31 | .262 | 12.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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Final numbers for Wheeler on the day were eight innings pitched, one run on only two hits, six strikeouts and two walks; definitely Wheeler’s best outing of the season so far”
That is good news, really good news, specially after seeing beltran having an all world MVP type season this year…
Alex, I am glad Beltran is doing well but it’s really irrelevant in any Wheeler discussion considering he was not signed by the Mets past last year. Thus we don’t really need to do the comparisons. But, hey if you want to and it makes you feel better, go ahead. Can we still do those comparisons 3 years from now? How about 5?
I wonder what the blogging world would have said when the Mets traded Mazzilli for Darling?
Darling in minors:
1981 (AA Rangers): 4.44 ERA
1982: (AA Mets): 3.73
1983: (AAA Mets): 4.02
Or this one:
“Diaz had a career year in 1983, his only full season with the Mets. He pitched in a career high 54 games, and had a 3-1 record with two saves and a 2.05 ERA. Following the season, he was traded to the Los Angeles Dodgers with Bob Bailor for Sid Fernandez and Ross Jones.
The trade was initially unpopular with Mets fans, however, it turned out to favor the Mets in the end, as Fernandez went on to be a staple of the Mets rotation for ten years. “
I remember this trade well. Was a little bummed out they traded Mazzilli, especially since he was one of the only decent pieces we had in those late 70s/early 80s teams. But hey, we got him back in Aug. ’86…just in time. Not sure if the numbers will confirm this but it seemed like every time he got up to PH, he came up big that Aug/Sep.
SRT I’m sure you remember how Met fans wanted Frank Cashens head on a spit for trading Maz. When they brought back Maz he was money in the bank off the bench in big spots. His first start after the trade he homered on NBC’s game of the week. Not too mention his huge pinch hits in game’s 6 & 7.
ohh, and by the way, you can give me all those trades all you want, the most important trade to me was the keith hernandez for neil allen… Talk about lopsided trade
Alex, I did not post those to show lopsided trades. Just trades that were not considered popular at the time. More established players or even “heroes” traded for prospects who at the time were not even lighting it up in the minors or in their brief MLB time.
Lopsided it may have seem, but the fact was that since Keith was a cancer in the Cardinals eyes and was a pain in the ass to management and Herzog.
The drug trial issues had to have a lot to do with that. I guess you could say to the Cards, Keith was their Kevin Mitchell (at least what the Mets FO at the time thought of him!)?
Hated that they traded Kevin. Hated that move.
The Ojeda trade was pretty big too.
If you want to compare the moves don’t you also have to take into considerations the state of the team at the time?
When the Mets traded Mazz the team was the laughingstock of the MLB we were essentially the pirates of the day!
It’s pointless to say the move was a Boom or Bust until such time as Wheeler makes it to the MLB, But even if he is good, If he is not good enough to make us a WS winner at that time you still have to wonder if Beltran’s current performance would have done that for us and judge the trade on those merits as well.
As I said somewhere else, Tally up all those games people think Ike Davis has cost us as a non-hitting cleanup hitter and insert Beltran’s numbers there instead.
You can make assumptions about if he would have signed or not and they are no more real or valid than someone saying nhe would have, We don’t know either way what Beltran would have done and we didn’t even make an attempt to find out!
But tell me this…
How good would that trade look right now if we got Wheeler and then signed Beltran as well?
Much better than Wheeler by itself wouldn’t it?
We would have basically gotten Wheeler for a 3 Month rental and lost nothing in the end.
unless you think Beltran would have gotten them to the WS last year, the trade has nothing to do with this year.
whether they got wheeler or not, Betran was going to be a FA they had to bid for.
Did Wheeler get them there? Will he ever?
As I said take all those PAs where you think Ike failed and put Beltran in there….
Whats our Record right now if that happens?
Sure we would have had to pay Beltran….So What? On a Two year deal with the way he is hitting how can you say that isn’t worth it?
You cannot be rah-rah for Kirk, and Duda if you’re also wanting the Mets to sign a 2 year deal for Beltran.
If Beltran had been signed (which I’d put at a 1% chance), one of those guys would not be playing. Bay wasn’t losing his job in the winter, which means most likely Duda would have become a platoon OF.
They got rid of a guy who was a rent a player and got what they hope will be a quality pitcher for 5+ years at a big league level. There’s nothing the Mets can do but develop Wheeler… if he gets hurt one day, it doesn’t make it a bad trade.
The Giants went backwards and lost a young arm in the process. The Mets cannot LOSE that trade. They can only “tie” (if wheeler never amounts to anything positive) or win… and they could win big.
Sure you can!
Kirk CF
Beltran RF
Duda LF
See it’s easy!
You prefer playing Bay is that your assertion?
so you prefer Bay over Beltran…IC…
They should have signed Pujols too.
that was every bit as likely as the Mets signing another OF for mid-teens money, and sticking Bay on the bench, or releasing him.
and of course, you are using hindsight (not allowed on this site). Of course you would rather have Beltrans production to date than Ikes, but you have to sign guys before the season, not after!
it is, however, still relatively early in the season. Remains to be seen how well his knees can hold up to every day duty. So far so good (I assume, since I have not seen him play).
The problem with your argument is the GM is supposed to have the FORESIGHT to know who to sign…
And my point would only be hindsight if I said it wasn’t worth signing Beltran BEFORE he did well…
Did I say any such thing Stick?
A lot of others did!
Who thought it would be better to keep Beltran on July 28th 2011?
Was it hindsight then as well?
So your inccessant bitching about hindsight really is just rotten apples from those who hindsight proved wrong.
Not the ones who had the foresight to say before things happened what was probably a better move!
You know like the guy who GMs the mets gets paid to know?
last year has absolutely nothing to do with this year in terms of beltran. He was just another FA this off season, and would have been the exact same if the Mets had not traded him for a top pitching prospect. So last July is irrelevant to any discussion of what he is doing this year.
Of course GMs have to predict what they think guys will do. they also have to deal with a budget, and reality. Did they think beltran would be this good? Highly unlikely, but I doubt you can find anyone that expected it (and remains to be seen how the year plays out).
would beltran have come back to NY under any circumstances? None of us know.
But, the Mets were on record as saying a few things, one of which is that he was no longer able to play FT in CF. so that left playing a corner OF>
given the fact they had a prospect bat they wanted to play, and weren’t jettisoning Bay to spend just as much on a replacement, and were not working with an unlimited budget, Beltran also was not a good overall fit.
so no, the FO was not looking to go after this particular FA. would they like the production he has put up so far? Every team would.
Hell, the Phils are sucking wind offensively, and have a massive void in LF. why weren’t they smart enough to make a run at the guy?
Has everything to do with Hindsight doesn’t it?
I said he was worth having!
And would he be worth having at this point in time?
Yep we would have had to resign him this offseason….
And your point is…….?
You see you can’t hide behind the hindsight because I said we were better off with him BEFORE and any opportunity AFTERWARDS would not diminish or change that assessment!
You can believe Wheeler is worth having and I won’t argue all I’m pointing out is that ship hasn’t sailed yet and could sink between now and the next two years!
You don’t know and I don’t know so having an unknown really doesn’t matter either way yet does it?
Point remains, we would be much better off with Beltran RIGHT NOW and no matter if that happened because we didn’t trade him and had first crack or because we traded and resigned him the bottom line is I was correct when I said we wrere better off WITH Beltran than we are without him!
And if you refuse to admit that your just doing so because you refuse to admit you were wrong about his worth while I was correct!
As usual you are still missing the point. The point is that you can’t compare what Beltran is doing this year to what Wheeler is doing. It’s pointless as Beltran was going to be a FA either way regardless of the trade and thus we got Wheeler and his potential for 2 months of Beltran. Period. It’s pointless what he is doing this year or how much he would help. As Stick said, how much better would Prince Fielder look at 1B? Should we compare his production to Wheeler as well?
Thats because Wheler is doing NOTHING and until you can say he has…
having something is better than having NOTHING!
And if you disagree well then give me everything you have!
See how it works out for you!
No I prefer Jason Bay to not have a 4 year $66million contract.
In the real world of professional baseball, you are not inheriting a guy who makes $16million this year and signing another OF to a $13mil a year deal which would then force your $16mil a year guy to the bench.
Can Bay get pushed to the bench? Yes. But you aren’t actively pursuing a 34 year old $13mil player in the winter in order to push Bay to the bench before he steps foot on the field in 2012.
Those things work in MLB2k12, but they don’t work in the real world.
In the REal world of baseball (as opposed to this fantasy budgetary crap you subscribe to) It doesn’t matter what you pay guys if you are winning World Series titles!
Something I would think the Yankees would have taught you by now!
In your warped BEANBALL world you play and make decisions based on MONEY not BASEBALL!
Name a team that has played and decided based on MONEY who has succeeded…
Note the Rangers and Cardinals do not fit your model because they didn’t play a scrub based on how much he made nor did they shy away from paying a guy who was worth every penny in production and helped them win their WS titles!
““I’m a finance geek. I guess I always have been,” ________ said during spring training. “That’s my background; budgets matter and balance sheets matter. I just feel that if you do well on the player development side and you have a good farm system, you don’t need a $220 million payroll. You can field every bit as good a team with young talent.”
There’s your Yankee guy for you.
Yet he still has a 220 Mil payroll doesn’t he?
Why is that again?
And what has it gotten for him to date?
16 Playoff Appearances
7 World Series Appearances
5 WS wins!
When you find me a team that can do that with a 95-140 Million Dollar payroll come bring me a big fat dish of Crow!
“Yet he still has a 220 Mil payroll doesn’t he?”
That he announced was being cut back by $40 million or so over the next 3 years.
“Why is that again?”
Because it was there before he officially took over.
“And what has it gotten for him to date?”
Nothing. His dad bought 4 titles, but that was a different era.
“16 Playoff Appearances
7 World Series Appearances
5 WS wins!”
Was that the open check book or Gene Michael and Bob Watson developing players from the farm?
Your not big on facts are you? you really have an aversion for them!
What was their salary when he took over and what is it now? What is it going to be after the cuts?
Note he isn’t trying to cut 55 Mil in one year he is only cutting 40 over 3!
AND what is his record now that he cut salary?
Metsie,
I don’t need to get into a war with you over the realistic aspect of signing baseball players. Signing Carlos Beltran to a 2 year deal would have ended any chance for the Mets to either start Kirk or start Duda over those 2 years.
Despite what we think about Bay, you don’t move a $16million player to the bench without exhausting every chance to get him to turn it around. Which means, you don’t move him to the bench in the winter. You can trade him, but you know nobody would take him.
Plus, you’re also assuming Beltran would want to play here. I don’t know about you, but I never felt like he LIKED it here. I’m not saying he hated it, but there sure was enough evidence to suggest he wasn’t a huge NYC guy.
Your point about the Yankees is actually a failed one. They are dropping payroll, and are intending to work within a budget. And even the Yankees wouldn’t move a $16mil player to their bench in the winter.
Stop acting like Mets of the past need to be here. The Carlos Beltran era is over. The Mets have a slew of young OF they are trying to bring up, and adding a 34 year old to a $13mil per deal does nothing positive for the young players and for the franchise’s longterm health.
Stop pretending it does.
Here is realism for you Jesse….
There are 13 teams in the MLB who have a higher payroll than us and don’t lose money!
So obviously what you spend has no bearing on your ability to make a profit!
Sure you can win games by not spending a lot of money…
But not consistently!
So your reality is not really reality!
The teams that win the most make thier moves based on BASEBALL not MONEY as you do!
“There are 13 teams in the MLB who have a higher payroll than us and don’t lose money!”
How do you know? The owners refuse to open the books.
“So obviously what you spend has no bearing on your ability to make a profit!”
Profit = Income – Expenses
“Sure you can win games by not spending a lot of money…
But not consistently!”
Oakland, Minnesota and Tampa beg to differ.
“The teams that win the most make thier moves based on BASEBALL not MONEY as you do!”
The 2 are inseparable.
Nicely said. Inseparable. Baseball is a business. It is not a charity event that rich dudes put on because they enjoy watching the games themselves and don’t have a better way to spend their cash. They are in this to turn a product into a profit. I find it funny when they are split, because it’s about winning and not about money. Yes, generally when you win you generate more money, but more often than not, it’s about winning on the ledger sheets and then winning on the baseball field.
Ok How many have taken loans from the MLB?
Really this attempt at creating evidence out of lack of information or facts is typical and dishonest!
Funny how there was no hiding the Mets money losses now was there?
Or the Dodgers!
Well NJ do you know what the first rule in Business is?
You have to SPEND money to MAKE money!
“Ok How many have taken loans from the MLB?”
I don’t know. How many? We only hear about it when something major happens in the media. Wasn’t there some story last year about a bunch of teams falling behind on payments to MLB but it wasn’t a big deal because it was typical and being worked out?
Also, how many are making money off revenue sharing? That has to get figured in as well.
“Really this attempt at creating evidence out of lack of information or facts is typical and dishonest!”
I’m not trying to create evidence. I am in fact pointing out your baseless assumption. You are the one asserting things when you don’t have any evidence to support them.
“Funny how there was no hiding the Mets money losses now was there?”
Because the Mets were trying to navigate the Madoff situation on top of it. Had that not been an issue, the restructuring may have just been a blip on the radar.
“Or the Dodgers!”
Again really different situation with some tabloid suitable elements. The shady way McCourt bought the Dodgers, the divorce, the crazy expenses, the fact that McCourt and his charming wife used the team as an ATM machine, the guy in Boston putting a spell on them etc etc
Finding out the Phillies need an extra 4 months to pay back a loan…meh
Finding out teams in the top 2 media markets are having whacky adventures tied into their finances…headlines
“You have to SPEND money to MAKE money!”
No, that is a cliche, not a rule.
That total Bull!
You knew the Mets took a loan out the second it happened!
The problem is you should not pretend to know something on the basis of the sentence “I Don’t Know!”
This is your problem in most everything you argue!
You claim to know something but it’s all based on what you don’t know!
2+2=5 because I don’t know it actually equals 4!
Metsie, can you prove that is Rule #1 in Business please?
I’m going to need at least 3-5 good sources of superbly successful businessmen(women) who said that please.
Thanks.
Can you start a business without spending money Jessup?
What business can you start?
Can you open a store with no venue and no stock?
Can you put on a play with no stage and seating or performers?
Can you start an insurance business without enough money to cover a claim?
Can you even register a business for free?
Answer yes to anyone of them with examples of how it works and you will win this argument!
Hi Jessep,
Won’t repeat my feelings about 2011 with the Mets trade of Beltran for Wheeler after dumpling KRod but both these moves, along with those done and not done since, does send a message that could be interpreted as the front office priority being less the fielding of a competitive team as it is desperately trying to downsize. That’s why many of us believe what is being done for the purpose of ‘rebuilding” is simply trying to get the best spin across to cover up the Wilpon’s extreme financial troubles that are still mounting up.
How else does that explain all the moves being made considering this was a potentially very competitive team? Cost cutting differes from taking on additional expenses and even cost-cutting measures could be done gradually and not all at once as we have see. Beltran could have played out the season with us and then left. With KRod, the Wilpons obviously felt they could afford his hefty salary along with that bonus at the time they signed him. Also take into consideration not only the players they let go but those they continously sign on the cheap (other than Francisco).
Carried further, not having formal negotations with Jose’s agent can be viewed in the context they felt more comfortable with Tejada taking over and less comfortable with Jose’s future physical condition (a valid baseball consideration). But the money saved by not re-signing Jose, just like the $17 million bonus and 2012 contract with KRod, was not even in part re-invested in the major league team. Add to that there being no contact of yet with David’s agent and Sandy Alderson being evasive about the team’s desire to re-sign him and all put together, the moves made over the past 19 months do not appear as a new direction toward fielding the best teams possible over the long term.
While we’re all rooting for Zach Wheeler to make it, I don’t think the circumstances that enabled us to get him offsets all else that has been lost in the interim.
Joe, look. I don’t think we need to have the whole “what Sandy did” discussion again.
Here’s the bottom line with regard to THIS topic which is Zach Wheeler.
Carlos Beltran was not going to be a Met come winter 2012. Whether he played the season out or not, he was going to be gone. Whether you or somebody else have visions of them offering an extension, it simply was not going to happen. There’s no sense in saying “but” or “if”, it just was not going to happen.
Therefore, they got what they feel and what many others feel to be a very solid young pitching prospect for a guy who in their eyes would be on another team in Spring 2012.
To me, that’s a great deal. Whether it works or not doesn’t matter right now. The Mets feel they have a guy who can be a legitimate rotation arm for 5+ years. That is more valuable than 3 more months of Beltran.
“Carlos Beltran was not going to be a Met come winter 2012″
PROVE THAT!
Show me the rider in his contract that said we could not resign him or retain him past November 2011!
Because he was treated like crap when he was here. Remember the Walter Reed nonsense? What went on with his knee surgery? The media constantly telling us how soft he was?
Who in their right mind would want to work under those conditions?
Hi Jessup,
I have to disagree with looking at the Zach Wheeler trade just on it’s own without taking into account the 2011 season.
On it’s own, it is a fine deal – a pitching propspect with great potential for an outfielder who was going to leave the team at the end of the season.
But when one takes into account the 2011 season as it was developing, it’s a whole different issue. I too don’t want to resurrect what could have happened if things were handled differently, however, it is important to note that teams with a chance at accomplishng something don’t sacrifice it for a prospect – it’s only teams in the position like Houston, Colorado and San Diego that do.
But Zach is ours now and I just hope that he isn’t put under such scruitiny when called up that it only adds to the pressure of both breaking into the majors and doing it in New York. He is going to have a lot more expectations than had he stayed with the Giants organization – while being the first rookie I can recall having the additional burden of needing to prove something beyond his ability with the fans and media at the same time.
“Won’t repeat my feelings about 2011 with the Mets trade of Beltran ”
You just did.
Again that is not what this debate is about and you have already been proven that the Beltran TRADE had nothing to do with money.
Tr,
The $2 million the Mets saved, when taken into context with all the other individual moves they made to save even lesser sums of money, shows that the argument about the Beltran deal having to do with money cannot be dismissed. To say it has been proven that is hasn’t is ignoring all the other points many of us have raised.
Are those points meaningless in nature? Does the trade when combined with all those questions note raise possible others motives that led to it along the others that have and have not been made before and after? Are there or are there not dots to connect here?
“Again that is not what this debate is about” — does that mean you didn’t notice that you and three others were already talking about the merits of the trade before I even said anything? Isn’t that a point that’s also being overlooked?
Wether you like it or not wheeler will be the guy sandy traded beltran for… It’d be looked at the same Way in SF if he pans out to be a stud for us… It’s the way baseball works, you know this… Remember john smoltz? schilling? bagwell? Trades that worked out, i can always give you plenty that didn’t when teams trade for Bonafide pitcher or big time hitter for prospects and those prospects never even sniffed the majors… You should know better, this has been happening since forever
That’s fine if you don’t know the circumstances. However, on this one the Mets were not keeping Beltran anyway so what’s the point?
When you say stuff like:
“That is good news, really good news, specially after seeing beltran having an all world MVP type season this year…”
It gives the impression that we chose 2012 Wheeler over 2012 Beltran when in reality that was not the case. In fact had they wanted to they could have traded Beltran for Wheeler and then re-signed Beltran.
ahhhh, right… Forgot, we had no money… How good would those beltran’s number would’ve looked on the team right now… you’re right..
Alex, that still has nothing to do with the trade or comparing the two. Again, the Mets could have re-signed Beltran after the trade just as the Cardinals signed him as a FA. Thus to do a comparison of the trade you would have to look at just what the Giants got from Beltran compared to what the Mets get when Wheeler’s Mets career is finished.
Which to date is NOTHING….
Wheeler has not given us anything to date, Maybe he will and maybe he won’t but to say we got the better part of that deal is pointless until such time as Wheeler does something for us!
Yes we would have had to resign Beltran.
And where would we be in the NL East right now if he was cleaning up and not Ike?
Think about it!
Currently attendance is down from last year. We averaged 29,044 per game last year!
This year so far it’s only 26,299 per game!
And we have a much better record than last year so so much for winning draws attendance!
What would we be drawing right now if we were atop the NL East because we spent money on Beltran?
“Yes we would have had to resign Beltran.
And where would we be in the NL East right now if he was cleaning up and not Ike?”
Slightly better on the offensive front than where we are now and would have us about 5-6 games over .500 right now, but tell me, would that have improved our inability to hold leads/end games from a few specific people in our pen? Would that have helped Dillon Gee give up fewer runs than he has of anyone on the staff?
well yes and no….
While it wouldn’t make the pitching better it might have led to better leads, More leads and a bigger cushion so that the runs given up were not enough to lose the game….
IE The games where Dickey and Niese were lifted and PH for in the 7th while tied despite pitching well that day in the name of scoring a run to get them the win…
Would that be required if Beltran was driving in runs for us that day?
Would Francisco have as many save opportunities to blow with those extra runs?
Would Ramirez even get in those games where he let them tie it up?
Would the score be that close for a 2run HR to have cost us the lead?
Who can say but more runs scored would have gone a long way to making it harder for them to blow the game.
Beltran wouldn’t have been on the Mets in 2012 trade or no trade… so his 2012 seasons and beyond really shouldn’t be compared to how Wheeler progresses.
Beltran’s time with SF is what you should compare Wheeler’s progress to. I’d bet you that most SF Giants fans wish they had Wheeler today instead of Beltran for the time they did, since it backfired.
I must interject here. I wouldn’t have had one problem with bringing Beltran back especially considering that we ended the season with a still declining Bay, an off year by Pagan and an untested Duda in RF. In fact I had Kelly make up those BBB Bring Back Beltran t-shirts and we sold four of them, not counting mine. lol
What else did Beltran have to do to prove his knees were fine last season? Seemed to me he passed the test, and the World Champion Cardinals thought so too.
Joe, I am not suggesting his talent was not worth having. I am saying a team in the Mets situation has absolutely no business moving a $16million player to the bench in the Winter. If the Mets could have moved Bay, then it’s not the worst argument in the world. But you and I both know that wasn’t happening in the winter.
If you’re saying Bay/Pagan/Duda was the OF in the winter, adding Beltran then removes Duda from the lineup. It does not remove Bay and it wouldn’t have removed Pagan. And what it would have done is trickled down to keeping Kirk from the big leagues as well.
Not every move is as easy as “slide him into the lineup.” I am saying if you want Duda and if you want Kirk, then you couldn’t have Beltran also, because there is no way Jason Bay and his over $30million was being moved to the bench without picking up a bat in 2012.
Doesn’t logic dictate that you shouldn’t KEEP a 16 Million dollar failure in the lineup when a 13 Million dollar player is available to actually contribute?
I suppose you thought we should not bring up Gee and continued to pitch Perez as well?
He made 12 Mil!
Was it not a good move to just eat your mistake and make a move that makes the baseball better?
Or do you believe it’s better to set your lineup based on their salary regardless of the affect it has on the baseball!
You wpould make a great bean counter accountant but you would make an truly awful GM with thinking like yours!
I wouldn’t go as far as to say it backfired. Beltran contributed to their offense, the rest of the team just didn’t pull their weight.
When you look at the trade itself, it was mutually beneficial.
PROVE THAT!!!!
The only reason he isn’t on this team is because Sandy didn’t want him nothing more!
If Sandy had wanted him he might still be here!
This is classic Jessup spiel state a fact that really isn’t a fact in hopes people will juyst buy the horse$#!t as the sugar!
It wasn’t just Sandy. Fred detested Beltran and Jeff did his daddy’d bidding.
So you are saying the chances of Beltran choosing the Mets over the defending WS champs would have been uhhh about the same as Prince Fielder coming here?
Could be Joe..but even so If Sandy said he wanted him they would not have told him otherwise…
They have never done that to a GM of theirs ever in thier History!
Not in any case that anyone has proved beyond speculation!
“Could be Joe..but even so If Sandy said he wanted him they would not have told him otherwise…They have never done that to a GM of theirs ever in thier History!”
So we’re saying when Omar wanted Manny Ramirez that doesn’t count because nobody said in front of a microphone that it went down like that?
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-01-22/sports/17913495_1_omar-minaya-mets-gm-jeff-wilpon
Nuff said here!
Right, I don’t think you have to be a genius to figure out that the front office and Beltran did not have a good working relationship.
I’m not saying Beltran’s talent couldn’t be valuable to the 2012 Mets. I am saying I find it incredibly unlikely that Beltran would
a) return to NY when his contract ended (when in fact he didn’t wanna come here to begin with) and that
b) The Mets WOULD have done it which would have meant either $16mil Jason Bay goes to the bench in the winter which is HIGHLY unlikely or Duda or Kirk do not get MLB playing time
I’m saying you can’t have Bay and Beltran on a roster and also have Kirk and Duda getting enough playing time. Just not gonna happen no matter how loud Metsie yells for proof or how badly some wanted Beltran here.
And whose fault is it that they did not have a good relationship? Beltran?
You say “I find it incredibly unlikely”
But this after you got called out on stating it as a FACT:
“Beltran wouldn’t have been on the Mets in 2012 trade or no trade”
Go Zach Wheeler.
Outstanding performance, kid. Stay consistent, tone down on the walks and you’ll be on the way to Buffalo very soon.
Off topic, who do you think said this?:
“I’m a finance geek. I guess I always have been,” ________ said during spring training. “That’s my background; budgets matter and balance sheets matter. I just feel that if you do well on the player development side and you have a good farm system, you don’t need a $220 million payroll. You can field every bit as good a team with young talent.”
No clue, but should be interesting to find out.
though I know a couple of people that it certainly isn’t…
$220 million payroll huh? I wonder who that could possibly be. Hint, hint.
Steinbreiner, no other team has a $200 million dollar payroll
No other team plays in the biggest baseball market on the planet…..
Oh Wait! LOL
Looking forward to listening to Mejia’s outing today. Nice to see Beato’s rehab is going well.
Harvey tonight too I believe!
Nice. Thx 4 the heads up.
Wheeler is awesome.
Pete and Tim, I love the pics you guys have been taking and adding to your reports. Nice job!
“Carlos Beltran was not going to be a Met come winter 2012″ PROVE THAT!
“Show me the rider in his contract that said we could not resign him or retain him past November 2011!”
Hi Metsie,
Even though we agree on most issues, I think it not being written in stone didn’t mean we had a shot of re-signing Carlos. I think there was too much ill will between him and the front office for him to really want to stay. With all that he has made through baseball, it was no longer an issue of money.
Not written in stone means exactly what it means…Could go either way!
You know what WAS written in stone regarding Beltran?
Sandy’s lack of interest in having him!
We will never know if we could have signed him or not, because we never tried to get him!
It’s like saying I can’t possibly walk and then making sure that statement is true by refusing to actually take a step!
Carlos was on the market for a decent amount of time.
If we had made a similar offer before the Cards there is no reason to believe he would have turned us down.
No proof he would have either.
Likely unlikely doesn’t matter because it’s easy to be a prophet and say he wouldn’t accept when he had nothing TO accept in the first place!
Hi Metsie,
Guess even I got confused about the point you were trying to make but that’s what offen happens when semantics enters the debate – it usually creates more confusion than clarification LOL.
joey I don’t know one way or the other what Carlos would do…
All I know is that whatever happened between him and the club happened under a different GM and if that feeling remained when the new guys came in it has everything to do with their actions and not what Beltran did for them.
In the end whatever ill will may have existed could have been washed away by extending him or making an offer in the offseason.
But since it wasn’t made we really will have no way of knowing.
Hi Metsie,
We can only speculate if the friction was not limited to just the former general manager and reflected the feelings of the ownership as well. There is indeed no way of knowing.
Even if it was the wilpons…Like another Owner is going to treat him any better?
These guys know full well every Owner is pretty much the same and say the same things…
Steinbrenner made a career out of calling out players yet he had no issues resigning and reupping them when it came time to talk money!
Winfield might be the one excpetion I think Griffey Jr can be added to that list.
It doesn’t matter now really does it?
He’s a cardinal. The original point still remains this team COULD have been better and by Beltran not being here made worse than it could have and should have been.
Which is what some of us said long before Beltran compiled a single stat.
We made a decision based on Money and it cost us in baseball.
Some think thats ok because they think Money is jjust as important as baseball but the truth is it is not…it’s the BASEBALL that brings the fans to the stands, wins the games and pays the bills.
Not how frugal you are!
“Ok How many have taken loans from the MLB? Really this attempt at creating evidence out of lack of information or facts is typical and dishonest!”
Hi Metsie,
And to add to that, when has a commissiner urged somebody to apply for the general manager position when that individual had no desire to apply for it in the first place? And then, how often does a business hire that same type person?
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-02-02/sports/27738554_1_mets-gm-wilpons-payroll
Again, the famous words attributed to you by the pen of Denis Leary “I’m the enemy because I like to think. I like to read. ”
I Just have to laugh at these guys who based on NOT KNOWING something and having no PROOF to say otherwise will come out and proclaim their fantasy as a fact merely because they think you can’t DISPROVE the fantasy due to it’s non existence in reality!
We knew full well and know which teams are having Issues and money problems.
Houston has had them, texas too, Mets Dodgers all were pretty clear even before the MLB got involved that there was money issues.
But note it’s never a team with a high payroll in trouble!
Always a middle or non-spender that you hear about!