13
2012
Déjà Vu All Over Again: Mets Fall 8-4 After Bullpen Foils Another Late Rally
An article by 
Recap:
Despite a valiant effort by Jon Niese and the New York Mets, who have scratched and clawed for every win this year, the bullpen for the second time this series could not hold it together, dropping the rubber game on a walk-off grand slam by Mike Giancarlo Stanton, 8-4.
Niese took the hill despite not feeling his best and handed the Amazin’s goose eggs over six frames before being taken out for a pinch hitter in the top of the 7th. It was when the game got into the bullpen however, that it turned ugly.
Staked to a 2-0 lead, Ramon Ramirez came on to pitch the seventh and promptly surrendered a 2-run bomb to John Buck to tie the game up at two.
Fast forward to the ninth, Heath Bell on to keep the game tied, and of course; failed. With the bases loaded and two out, Justin Turner delivered a pinch-hit double to give the Mets a solid 2-run lead. That should be enough for Francisco to nail it down right?
Wrong. Francisco, the only Met to receive a multi-year contract, proceeded to surrender a triple, a single and a walk before being taken out of the game, but not before he had a few choice words for home plate umpire Todd Tichenor, resulting in his ejection.
For some strange reason, Manny Acosta was called in to shut the door; and failed. After getting the first two batters out to face him, Acosta melted down, surrendering a walk and hitting Austin Kearns to load the bases for Giancarlo Stanton, who took Acosta’s first pitch, and deposited deep behind the the left centerfield fence to win the ballgame 8-4.
Goat Of The Game:
It’s really a toss up, so I’ll give it to both Frank Francisco and Manny Acosta, who both do not deserve to be in the major leagues the way they’re pitching, let alone a key situation in the ninth. When is Parnell/Rauch going to start closing?
Notes:
-Why Manny Acosta was called in in that spot, –and then remained in to face Stanton– is beyond me.
-Collins said that he isn’t making any decisions on the future of Francisco as the closer today because everything is “very emotional” right after a tough loss like this afternoon.
-With today’s start, Niese now has allowed three runs or les in all but one of his starts this season.
-Wright went 1-3 today and Kirk Nieuwenhuis and Daniel Murphy had two-hit games.
Up Next:
The Mets go home to face the Brewers tomorrow night at 7:10.
About the Author: Clayton Collier
Clayton, a Long Island native and die-hard Mets fan, started writing online about three years ago. He is currently a Journalism major with a minor in Broadcasting at Seton Hall University. Although very disappointed with the current state of the team, Clayton remains hopeful that the young prospects in the farm system will bring the Mets back to a respected franchise in baseball once again. Besides writing for MMO, Clayton is also a staff member at 89.5 WSOU, Seton Hall's modern active rock radio station. You can contact Clayton by following him on Twitter: @Clayton_Collier or E-mailing him at MaybeNextYearMets@yahoo.com
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Let me 1st say that I have no problem giving the team or a player credit and recognition when they do well so I have no problem calling them out when they do bad and the blowup Francisco had with the ump as he walked off the mound was bush. Francisco embarrassed himself and the Mets uniform. I don’t care if the ump did squeeze him. I will be curios to hear what he says postgame but if it’s anything like what he said after Friday’s blown save he might as well just shut up and say no comment. All I want to hear from him is an apology for his behavior and letting the team down.
As far as the game goes Niese did a good job going 6 innings. I understand Collins wanting to go for the 2 run lead when he did but like Keith said I would of went with someone other than the struggling Davis there. Ramirez came in and gave up the tying runs but I am not going to go crazy on him especially since he has pitched ok since his Rockies fiasco.
Rauch came in and gave Collins a 1-2-3 8th and I wonder if Collins will give Rauch or Parnell a chance at closing for a bit especially after Francisco’s meltdown today.
Tough loss should of swept this series.
Positives for me was how the Mets once again fought back in this game.
Big picture the went 4-2 on the road and I would of signed up for that when the road trip began.
Let’s get home and beat the Bucks.
LGM!!!
I said it in the shoutbox when he PH for Niese, no way in hell am I lifting him for a PH there, when he’s pitching a shutout and if I did definitely not with a 175 hitter that is sick with the flu. Baxter is only hitting 400 as a PH. Terry constantly asks his bullpen to get 9 outs and it comes back to bite him on the ass far too often. We do not have a lock down type pen where you can go in there in the 7th inning on a daily basis and not expect them to lose games. If we were trailing then by all means PH there. I wouldn’t do it with this pen as constructed. Every guy in that pen is a highwire act.
Yeah Fonzie lets blame the Manager not anyone Sandy signed right?
” If we were trailing then by all means PH there. I wouldn’t do it with this pen as constructed. Every guy in that pen is a highwire act.”
LOL, man oh man do you ever desire to turn every debate into the same thing.
Yeah sometimes I get tired of being right all the time!
Notice a distinct absence of Donal, Xtreeme and Jessup here?
These arguments are really aimed at them!
LOL, I bet you do get tired of being right all the time. That’s why you go on and on and on and on about the same thing for days and days. All in a search of proving yourself right. Wow.
Yeah and here I sit right about the Pen aren’t I?
So am I the one rediculous for going on about the RIGHT answer I was giving you? or are the guys who make me go on and on giving the right answer and claiming I’m always WRONG because it doesn’t fit their WRONG LOGIC the one to blame here?
If those same folks just stopped with their propaganda and said Well Metsie has a point you wouldn’t have to read about it all the time!
But no they just keep trying to say I’m wrong even when I’m right now don’t they?
Where are these guys right now huh?
Having a secret Sandy Society meeting to come up with a concerted and rehearsed story to tell and blame this all on Omar or Someone else?
“If those same folks just stopped with their propaganda and said Well Metsie has a point you wouldn’t have to read about it all the time!”
OK so you post to prove yourself right and if someone tells you that you are right you will move on?
OK guys taking one for the team here…
“Well Metsie you have a point”.
There, done.
Maybe it has something to with it being Mother’s Day and some people actually have lives.
Yeah thats why he was in Chat during the implosions!
I was in chat but only paying a little attention.
Seriously, get over yourself. You’re silly, falacy ridden rants don’t send anyone running for shelter except to get away from the white noise.
You’re like the conspiracy nut who claims victory because no one from the government or something won’t personally address your livejournal.
You were in chat and ran for the hills as soon as the game was done because you knew what the conversation was going to be!
Dude I have been following the debating practicves of tyou and your two bhuddies for over two years now and you guys consistently brow beat posters with your attitude, when you can’t make a point or get caught up in facts either run from the subject by trying to go off on a tangent and when that doesn’t work you run away!
Yesterday you simply ran away!
Because the CRAZIES you guys hate were proved correct!
Not less than 4 days ago you and Jessup were defending these Pen arms as good pitchers!
And attacking a metric I used to show they were not now or ever good pitchers!
Well time to eat the egg DONAL and admit you were wrong!
“You were in chat and ran for the hills as soon as the game was done because you knew what the conversation was going to be!”
Or I left because the game was over and didn’t have an excuse to sit on the couch avoiding work anymore.
“Dude I have been following the debating practicves of tyou and your two bhuddies for over two years now ”
Wow, that is sad on like 50 different levels.
And the rest of your screed is the usual hypocracy. Yawn. You falsely accuse me of something you and those you cuddle up with use as the go to move with any who dares have a different opinion.
What is sad is you talk like your a man but then when it comes time to MAN UP you run and hide!
I’m busy on weekends. I really don’t serve at your beck and call.
Yeah Metsie, I just condemned the entire bullpen, especially Francisco but I’m taking the blame away from Sandy’s guys. Why don’t you give Joey D a call so you guys can wax poetic about K-Rod and blow up another thread to 300 comments. If you keep saying the same thing every day yeah eventually you’ll get something right. It’s Omar 19 wins and Sandy 15 losses right? Damn we were a juggernaut until Sandy got here, Boy he destroyed the dynasty that was ours. That piece of shit.
LOL and on cue Joey post 9 paragraphs on the same stuff right after you. At least he kept it on an old thread.
Fonzi,
Please address your remarks to the one you are speaking with and keep others out of it. Points of disagreement by those same people can be raised without referring to them personally. This is not the same as replying directly to one’s own comment but is simply referred to common courtesy.
Okay Joey why don’t you and Metsie go wax poetic about the K-Rod trade some more and turn this thread into another 300 comment waste of space. Better?
My issue is that considering the other issues with the team and legitimate things to complain about they actually pick two almost impossible to debate good moves by Sandy to spend all this time on. Those are actually 2 moves that I am willing to bet 9/10 GM’s do in the situation the Mets were in at the time. But hey they obviously aren’t completely impossible to debate because we certainly know the opposite side, as skinny of a side as it is.
My issue is with the constant need to turn everything into Sandy vs Omar. The excuse of well the Sandy guys certainly didn’t… blah blah blah blah blah. I have been on here consistently for a while now and have yet to see tons of pro-Sandy or anti-Omar post. Even if we did, why not let it die?
Fonzie,
I’ll simply let your own words speak for themselves regarding courtesy and behavior.
Yet will they too turn into the same Krod, Beltran, in it out of it, moneyball, not moneyball, Omar, Sandy debate? I am so anxious!
Perhaps Joey you forgot when you were bringing my name up in the shoutbox one night. Practice what you preach and I’ll return the favor.
Fonzie,
I hardly believe you are the victim here.
The subject during that shout box session was about the rudeness many of us had been encountering from certain individuals and yes, your name was one I specifically raised. I was referring to your ongoing personal disrespect that was embarrassing me in this public forum. One cannot be so insensitive to another’s feelings and not expect the offended party to discuss it with others.
This childish type of behavior prevails with so many in this public forum and puts a damper on the fun and purpose of diversion this site was intended for. It also wastes a lot of time. For myself, I have these same disagreements with others both personally and on other web sites – often just as heated and passionate as we have here – and yet we always kid each other about it. In fact, you even apologized the first time I said personal remarks aimed at me were uncalled for, stating you did not realize they had come across in such a manner and was sorry for any misunderstanding.
Many of us have been discussing this issue – not about our disagreements, but how the responses can be so personal and insulting. Perhaps the moderators will take up this issue someday with everyone.
No Joey you were discussing me long before that in the shoutbox referring to me as a Sandy lover. You and Metsie falsely stated that Alderson wasn’t making baseball decisions in Oakland until 1992 which I proved to be inaccurate and the more links I provided the more sidestepping and changing of the original point you did. I called you stubborn which is exactly what you were being. Everytime your opinion is challenged or proven wrong you change your original point until it becomes 300 comments worth of nonsense .I apologized only cause you took offense to it. That’s hardly an insulting comment at all. You call that embarrassing and disrespectful? I think you need a little thicker skin. If your going to post the same old shit every day you’re gonna get flack for it here. That’s just the way it is. You disrespect others here all the time only you say Hi before you do it.
Fonzi,
There will never be justification for one calling out another personally and to insinuate things that are furthest from the truth. What you do with others is fine with me but don’t drag me into it. Though I feel there is no need to defend myself, I will provide many instances that puts doubt into your credibility – not on baseball issues but how you conduct yourself.
If you happened to remark that I was “stubborn” I would find it annoying but nothing more. But this is a history trail: You once came down hard on a statement you attributed me to having made. Needless to say, I was clearly taking a position against that position and then went on to show that it was you who had made the statement in question not me. I quoted your own words. You then replied you “forgot” that you had said it. Why, in essence, did you take issue with yourself to begin with?
You also insulted my integrity by jumping on the bandwagon about my being “condescending” due to my age. You then stated emphatically that I will allude to many non-existent links to make my case of which I had no evidence to back myself up. If I recall, to counteract the credit Sandy Alderson gets for having drafted Canseco, McGwire and others based on computer analysis, I posted essays written by professional scouts who substantiated that high school and college statistics were meaningless in evaluating the potential of a raw talent. To prove Sandy Alderson had no professional knowledge of the game and came in cold when becoming the Oakland G.M., I attached his own words. With the case of Theo Epstein’s baseball background being different than that of Sandy, I provided information about Epstein’s sports background and interest and that he had not began to study law until already working with the Padres Public Relations Office (and never admitted to the Bar). In turn, I also provided history about Sandy Alderson’s vast resume in law and business to suggest his focus was in business and legal matters, not player development. I also provided an interesting article about the many different hats that a general manager can wear and that some were more involved in business than player personnel.
To give an example of how in their zeal, many saber metrics often tend to revise history, I provided an article in which the authors contradicted Yogi Berra who referred to his 1957 season as being lousy. When it was stated that Al Leiter was now a fan of advanced statistics, I provided a link in which he simply said he wished he had access to the vast amount of player information instead of relying on memory or notes, yadda, yadda, yadda.
These are examples of the behavior of one who doesn’t want to take issues but make issues instead. So feel free to address and rip into any position I might take. Tear them apart if you could and prove me 100 percent wrong – but keep your focus on the subject matter and keep your insults to yourself. If you want to get involved with name calling, conduct it with others and not me. Be a mensch.
Yeah Fonzie and why don’t you tell us all how great a job Sandy did fixing that pen this year?
Oh Wait he didn’t did he?
You know the guy who taught everyone how to scout failed at scouting?
ROFLMAO!
Hey you want some ketchup for that egg on your face dude?
Aren’t you the same guy who said we’re gonna suck for four years and Sandy is making the team worse? Who’s got the egg on their face? No Reyes, No Beltran, No K-Rod and the team has a better record this year than with those guys at this point last year don’t they? The same guy who said when Sandy was hired how we can’t expect him to fix this mess overnight and we’re gonna have to take steps back before we get better and blah blah blah. Which side of your mouth are you speaking with this week. Whatever happens you take that side and say see I told ya so. If they’re good you’ll be “See I told ya so” if they’re bad you’ll be “See I told ya so”. It’s easy to be right when you’re a fraud. Metsie all of MMO is on to you except Joey.D. He actually thanked you for insight. Now that’s something to ROTFLMFAO.
“Sandy is making the team worse? ”
Yep have you noticed that all he has tried to fix so far is the bullpen?
Better or Worse?
C’mon Metsie. You’re way to smart for the Bayonne approach. Let’s not confuse the forest for the trees. Look at the record.
Des November 28, 2011 at 8:12 pm
Amen, Xtree. Danny Herrera is a lefty specialist and a good athlete. His lack of size hasn’t hurt him getting guys out. He’s the real deal.
Bayonne Mets Fan November 28, 2011 at 8:38 pm
Yep, Herrera and all of his 8 innings pitched for the Mets is the real deal. Sure I like what i saw too….in 8 INNINGS PITCHED.
Even a pen of monkeys can produce a Mozart sonata. They’re still monkeys.
As recently as 2009, he appeared in 70 games for the Reds and posted a 3.06 ERA and 1.41 WHIP in 61 IP, facing 266 batters — which is a pretty decent sample size for a reliever.
After a good rookie season, Herrera has been unable to come close to his performance in 2009 and spent parts of the next two seasons in triple-a, where he showed little progress in getting his act together.
The fact that he is young does not mean that a team should give up on him but it might also be an indication that the hitters caught up with him and he could not adjust to counteract that.
Well said, Joey D. Maybe as a LOOGY.
Hey I agree the Parts Sandy ignored are doing great!
It’s the parts he spent two offseason trying to fix that he made worse!
You know Des I’m really just giving Jessup, Donal Xtreeme and in this case Fonzie some humble pie!
When I suggested these Relievers were no relief I got pounced on and am now just giving some pounce back!
Don’t you think I deserve to give them some of their own condescending crap back at them?
You reap what you Sew so to speak and I’m just having my fun at their predicament!
I gave you grief about the bullpen? Typical Metsie Lie. Show me where I gave you grief about the pen. I’m not eating humble pie. I didn’t like the Rauch signing for 3.5 million, I had no problem with the Francisco signing and I liked the Ramirez trade. You complained about Torres who’s been excellent since he came off the DL. Are you eating humble pie? You said the team was going to suck, they’re not sucking are you eating humble pie? Funny how you were no where to be found when they were 4-0 and only pop out from under your rock after the bullpen blows a game. Have you noticed since 2006 this bullpen has sucked, not just 2011 and 2012. From 2007-present the bullpen has sucked and before you say 2010 the pen was good make sure you realize the bullpen in 2010 gave up 12 walkoff losses, 5 of them by Pedro Feliciano. That’s not counting the times they faltered at home, that’s just on the road. 6 walkoff HR’s given up by the 2010 pen. How many of those bullpens were assembled by Sandy? How much money was spent on the bullpen prior to Sandy and it still choked away two playoff berths and has sucked since then. Short memory? Here’s a guy who claims to be 49 years old and his goal in life is to prove Jessep, Donal and Extreemicon wrong. Your folks must be so proud.
I can see your point Fonzie. I definitely think if your going sacrifice Niese by pulling him when he did for the chance to make it 4-0 he should of made the sacrifice worth it by using his best pinch hitter at the time and not Ike who has struggled for the most part this year plus was scratched due to flu like symptoms to begin with.
Agreed, and the problem is that the pen has been inconsistent. I guess it’s hard for Terry to know which pen he has that day…. LOL.
Inconsistant or consistently bad?
Nope not at all. Inconsistent is exactly what I meant.
MNJ, with our bullpen I wouldn’t have made that trade off at all being that we were already up 2-0 and Niese was pitching very well. It’s not a 2nd guess, I said it while it was happening in the shoutbox. I’m not going to ask this bullpen to yet again walk the tightrope thru 9 more outs. He does it too much. There were 2 outs, you can’t score on an out, you need a hit there, odds on Ike the way he’s played and being sick getting a hit there are really slim. I wouldn’t have made the trade off altogether, why he did with Ike just boggles my mind. I take my chances with Niese with a 2 run lead for a least another inning possibly more.Taking away the Bullpens responsibility to get more outs gives you a better shot to win in my opinion.
I THINK I agree but I think you have to think about the fact that even if you do get Niese through the 7th you still have to protect a two run lead for the 8th and 9th so the end result most likely is the same.
No I hear you Fonzie. For me the biggest thing was once the decision to pinch hit was made I wish he would of went with someone other than Davis, preferably Baxter.
Yeah Baxter’s only hitting 438 as a pinch hitter. Maybe Terry thought he was due to make an out. lol. TRS I would still rather have the bullpen only have to get 6 outs instead of 9. Maybe they blow it maybe they don’t, I would at least like him to show confidence in his starter.
At the end of the season we may very well look at all the blown saves and say “we could have been a wild card team IF.” Every game is so important.
True. How many 9th inning blown saves have we had where we lost the game?
Yep – THOSE WHO DO NOT LEARN FROM HISTORY ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT.
Like a dog going back to its own vomit, Terry entrusts a slim 2-run lead to the hard throwing righties in the bullpen, which happens to be the type of pitcher that the Miami Marlins can handle, as they did on Friday night.
When will he learn, that every pitcher is not best suited for every team. Pitchers with good off-speed stuff give the Marlins fits. Two blown saves by the same crew in one weekend is too much for me to stomach.
I rue the day we allowed Takahashi to walk, only to compensate the likes of D.J. Carrasco.
Quite simply, we should try to recover Takahashi, or at least bring up one of our good lefty relievers to lighten the load on Byrdak. We need to reconsider Francisco’s role as the sole closer for this ballclub. He was lights out against the Phillies, but the Marlins will trash him more times than not. He’s a good pitcher, but not a closer for every situation.
I agree with much of what you said but thought it might be interesting to say that Taka has an ERA of 8.22 this year.
collins was chewing nails in the post game. he was not happy but he contained himself. how big a jerk is FF? Good thing he did not have a chair on the mound with him
I don’t care that he is a jerk. So was Wagner and Krod. Lol. Hey Looper was a nice guy. I just don’t want him closing for a while.
In short,
It’s really hard to like Frank Francisco, at all.
Here it is, hours after the game is over, and I’m still seething over the ending. Quite frankly, I’m seething over this entire series. Here are the Mets, who could be walking back to Citi with an 8-game winning streak and possibly in 1st right now, but Francisco & Acosta let 2 out of 3 winnable games slip out of the Mets fingers. I said it just yesterday, but it bears repeating: Francisco is NOT closer material. Acosta? I will never know what the Mets see in him. I just want him out of here. Emotional or not, now is the time for Collins to eliminate the weak ends of the pen & bring a couple of guys up capable of getting things done from AAA.
Aye. The players from Buffalo have turned this team around. Keep em comming. Don’t forget about Mejia.
Couldn’t agree more! I have my doubts about Collins ability to manage a freakin game as well.
Fonz I like Collins.Today he gave Acosta and Francisco thier final test. Now let’s watch the changes.
I hope you are right. I still don’t see why they haven’t brought up replacements for Acosta and Batistia.
Are not roster moves the responsibility of the front office and not the manager?
Terry might not be doing a good job with cards he has been handed, but at the same time, he doesn’t have a good hand to play with. But still, it’s a different game played today and most all 30 major league clubs abide to it.
Do wonder if there is statistical information that shows whether or not more games were blown decades ago in the late innings by going deeper with the starter instead of making so many righty/lefty switches and relying more on the bullpen as done today.
I thought someone today said that was indeed the case that in the past there was a higher win rate with teams having the lead after 8 than there is now.
Yes, roster construction is ultimately front office but many managers have input on guys who are on the 40 man and who stays and goes.
One factor you can chalk that up to is diluted talent. There are more teams then there used to be, stands to reason less talented players are needed to fill out fosters as a result.
Sure, but I think the invention of the high paid middle reliever is more of the culprit than the added teams. In the past there would have been no need for the Carrasco or Show contracts.
But there is also a larger pool to choose from. Work in Latin America and East Asia (and now Europe) gives teams theoretically a billion people to choose from.* The diluted talent argument isn’t as cut and dry as we used to believe.
* Yes, I realize there are not actually a billion people playing baseball. I’m just saying that populations in the various countries MLB and the teams are reaching into add up to a billion.
Collins has given Acosta many a test and he never passes, yet he keeps going back to him in these game on the line situations only to keep failing. Francisco just plain old sucks, he was better as a set up man. My point is no matter how much you fail, collins will keep going back to you. Like keeping Jason Bay in the 5 hole. God forbid he bats 6th or 7th. I have no doubt Collins will go right back to Francisco the next time a save situation pops up. Even if it means yanking a starter in complete control.
At least Collins will pull a guy like FFF when he is sucking. As for Acosta, he is not very good but I wonder what the difference in this year and last year is? He was at least a mop up option last year.
Yeah and then again Acosta was the only guy who performed reasonably and reliably after K-Rod got traded!
He passed the test then and thats why he has gotten all the chances he did this season!
If he does bring someone up from AA that begs the question…
Why did we sign these guys at all? Why not go after a good catcher or starter for the money so maybe we wouldn’t need to use the pen so much every 5th day now that Pelfrey went down?
You can’t really knock Thole at this point, he was doing much better defensively and was hitting great. SP? Go ahead and jump on. I still say the issue was they did not want to send Gee to the pen and were willing to give Pelfrey a chance… so what they were looking for in a SP was someone like Garland who would go to AAA and wait. I guess they did a bad job finding that unless Young comes back.
Not knocking Thole but at the time not many seemed to like what he was doing.
Just saying if this was all that was available and your good at judging talent you should know to pass on them and go fix something else that maybe puts the game so out of reach not even a bad pen can blow the game for you!
You say not many were liking what they saw with him, do we know what Sandy or the Mets saw with him?
As for your other point, I would not have minded if they had just signed Rauch and a reclamation guy and then went after a starter but again what starter? If you are going to come back with how they had unlimited money and should have spent it regardless I will just pass on your response. If you want to be realistic and say someone that they actually could have brought in then fine.
well they did sign Paulino two years ago didn’t they?
Hey, all you Sandy the dandy lovers, his one big big sign, and he not only is a piece of crap he is a big time jerk, just like Alderson. Can’t wait for the team to be filled with the genius’ guys!!!!!
Shut the **** up, troll. Beat it.
Didn’t you know this was the Omar vs Sandy comment section? All post must turn into the same debate. It’s in the forum rules I think.
Oh like it’s really any different than when it was fashionable to blame Omar for who he signed and merely got hurt!
We all know the only reason you guys are complaining about the constant bashing of Sandy is because in the past you all took him as smart and now those smarts are not showing and it bothers the hell that all the folks who said these things about the Pen we signed and were called crazy unreasonable are now reasonable right and SANE!
If it is fine to blame Omar for signing Perez and castillo it’s perfectly fine now to blame Sandy for signing Francisco and Ramirez!
But please stop trying to make those who are giving you the good ol I TOLD YOU SO the finger by making it out an unreasonable conversation!
It’s PERFECTLY reasonable and it will only get worse if we find ourselves 7.5 games out of the Wildcard on July 28th with 4 teams ahead of us which is GIVE UP time because of that GOOD DAY Sandy had when he signed anything he could to grab the back page from Reyes going to Miami!
LOL, again. Same old debate. Are you not tired of it too? Seriously?
Yeah I’m like so Tired of being vindicated!
LOL, poor Metsie.
Alderson is trying to improve the team while having to cut a third of the payroll in less than two seasons. At least recognize the different set of circumstances from when Minaya was here. That’s really the point. I’d wager most gms wouldn’t have much success with the size of the contractual obligations on the Mets roster coupled with the decrease in finances. And Metsie, you can’t blame the budget on Sandy.
Hi Sane,
We don’t really know if the moves are due to financial restriction or fiscal philosophy.
For a long time I had been defending Sandy acknowledging that his hands were tied. But then the point has been often raised about many teams having been successful with low payrolls as compared to those like the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies and (up to 2010) the Mets who tried buying a championship. And that is where the tie-in with Sandy is for he has built up a reputation of being analytical in terms of advanced statistics and the placement of monetary value in putting together player personnel. Many profess he decisions were made using these types of principles and point to past success in Oakland and San Diego.
I could still agree that his hands might be tied but because of all the arguments presented in his favor have to wonder if the stated goal to reduce payroll in the manner he took (after the Castillo and Perez contracts expired) was of necessity or objective. The moves themselves do not speak highly of judgement calls if based on no tight restrictions.
I have to say joey d., for someone who has been saying that ive been understating the Mets financial problems and thinking the mets are having trouble covering their day to day costs thats an interesting comment.
“Alderson is trying to improve the team while having to cut a third of the payroll in less than two seasons”
And he obviously failed when you look at what he has brought in has done!
Well yes Metsie id say they are better. May 14, 2011 18-21. May 14, 2012 20-15.
And which move Sandy has made caused that to happen?
I love how much of a “fan” you are that rather than be happy with the team’s progress you’d prefer to gripe about Sandy constantly. You’re a joyless one note record who’s just calling out Alderson on every post because it would seem you have nothing of value to say.
But I digress. Mike Baxter was an Alderson waiver pick up who’s become quite the pinch hitter. Amstrad Torres is having a nice season as of yet, injury not withstanding. Acquired by Alderson. Miguel Batista has settled in his last two starts, and pitched well for us last year, signed by Alderson. Jon Rauch has been solid so far, Alderson. Tim Buffalo also Alderson. Not exactly the flashiest moves, but its a step towards a more complete roster.
The team plays hard. They’re fun to watch. Stop looking for things to complain about and enjoy the ride. That is if you can get over this blind hatred for all things Sandy. Seriously, what did he do to you?
Maybe it was when one of his assistants ripped off his shirt and challenged some of our minor league players to a fight in the clubhouse. Oh wait, that was on Minaya’s watch. How about when he accused Adam Rubin of campaigning for his job after not liking a question during a press conference. Oh, that was Minaya. Was it the terrible Jason Bay contract that’s taking up $18 million of the payroll. Gee, that wasn’t Sandy either.
I’m not saying that you should love Sandy. But let’s acknowledge that Minaya wasn’t exactly pumping out successes after ’06. He had quite a few PR blunders and bad trades and contracts. Just like every other GM. As well as I can acknowledge that this Francisco thing isn’t looking great. And that the Emaus experiment last year was a total waste. Obviously just mentioning a few examples.
So Metsie, get over yourself. You can talk about something other than disliking Alderson and attributing all success to Minaya. Be honest, they BOTH have their faults, and high notes. Say something positive. Smile, you might live longer.
But most importantly, regardless of who the GM is/was, LET’S GO METS!
Obviously should say Andres Torres and Tim Byrdak. I hate auto correct on phones.
Yeah Byrdack and Torres are why they are winning all these games!
You ARE a SANE met fan right?
Hi Sane,
I said that because I still do not feel I have a handle on the Mets finances. My gut feeling is that the Wilpons are in the financial hole way beyond the Mets but with Sterling Equities in general. I thought it to be very bad, indeed and thus the reason for buying on the cheap.
But the argument has also been made about Sandy’s own take about roster spending and the front office has been sending us signals they they did have a bit more to spend both last season and still now. So I can’t argue for certainty which scenario is closer to the real situation, whether it is financial restraint or financial philosophy.
I don’t think it is a combination of the two. Again, my gut feeling is that the Mets problems do not stem from the roster payroll for if it was just that, it doesn’t answer the reasons for the other extreme measures with the two loans, firing ten percent of the office staff, bringing in CRG , the salary dumping from last year, shutting down the rookie team in Florida, etc., along with not being able to get investments in minority ownership. So I do think this talk of rebuilding is just spin to cover up a bad financial situation and that Sandy was brought in to re-structure the entire organization. A team can make a slow transition from veterans to youth and be competitive a the same time.
But I hesitate saying that is written in stone for both, the doubts raised about how Sandy wants a team to be run and the fact that only those behind closed doors really know what the situation actually is, despite my own feeling being indeed they are broke and everything related to baseball is based on this issue.
herrera or egbert , better both
probably 1 at a time. as guys prove to be useless, they will get replaced. FF though will just get demoted. for now.
Herrera is out for the season. Tommy John.
Tommy John is retired and i don’t think he would be able to get in fast enough shape anyway.
Hmmmm…Tommy John surgery.
Egbert looks like a middle reliever at best. He is 29 with only one cup of coffee with the White Sox. He averages a hit per inning. He is a local hero. Born in Statin Island, He pitched for both Rutherford NJ High School and Rutgers U. I hope he gets the call. Hey that other local Baxter is doing us proud.
Francisco Acosta Francisco Acosta blah blah
Who was it that let them tie the game again?
Ramirez!
Which time? Lol.
Yeah tell me about it!
Truth is Acosta doesn’t get in there if either francisco or Ramirez do thier job.
Starting Pitching, Starting Pitching, Starting PItching.
That’s what a lot of us were saying Sandy should’ve used the money for this offseason. I still like the Pagan for Ramirez/Torres trade and I’m not nor will go back on that. He made one real trade this offseason and it was a good one. He should have used that money and combine it w/deals to acquire more starting pitching.
And anyway, even though I know it will never happen I wish baseball people would go back to conditioning their pitchers to go the distance. Other than Nolan Ryan I don’t know of anyone else doing it and it’s a shame. Back in the day complete games were the norm, pitchers were MORE healthy (go figure), and games were shorter.
Want shorter games stop the babying (which imo is resulting in more injuries!) and let these guys just pitch and pitch and pitch and build arm strength. You are never going to eliminate injury and the more they try to change the game to prevent it the longer the games become, the quality of the games is reduced by using these mid-level talent middle inning guys, and ironically the more the pitchers get hurt!
Here’s an idea – Just start a guy, let him go as long as he can and if he tires you bring in a reliever, let him go as long as he can until you have to replace him too. And your specialist could be the fireman who can come in trouble spots and shut the other team down. Oh wait…that’s how it used to be.
I agree and I hope that others start following Nolan’s lead and start moving back away from damn middle relievers. The game is on the line and you have your worst pitchers pitching OFTEN. That is why jokes like Showencrappy get 15M as middle relievers. Call it the Tony vs Nolan debate.
..and 15.5 million is wasted on Rauch and Francisco instead of using that money and your other resources to acquire Starting pitching and upgrade the catching – 2 VITAL areas to success which were ignored.
Was the Rauch money wasted? He has pitched pretty damn well with a couple of hiccups but none the less has been decently reliable. At this point though I give you FFF.
Now that being said, are we sure that Thole needed upgrading? For that matter for a back up catcher Nicky hasn’t been horrible. I think they really wanted to see what they had in Thole. I already agreed on SP but I said above why I think they did not go out and sign a pitcher. The ones they wanted went for long term deals and when that happen they decided to look for someone to stash at AAA and failed at that unless Chris Young can pitch long enough for a kid to be ready or Mejia to be healthy.
1) The catching class last offseason was garbage. Only one worth it on a defensive level was Pudge, but the Mets passed for some reason.
2) Please don’t clump Rauch with Francisco. If done over, I’d still take Rauch. Francisco? Not for 12 million.
3) Going in, the Mets plan was for the shoe to drop on one of the starters (most likely Pelf) and when the time came, Harvey would be called up. If that was the plan, it was doomed from the start. I didn’t like the rotation going in with many question marks. Only thing that could help at this point is bring back Hefner instead of going with Batista.
I don’t think that was the plan with #3 Even. I think they were looking to upgrade from Pelfrey but didn’t find anyone they deemed better to fit their constraints. Then when that happen they looked for guys to stash at AAA and IMO failed at that part which is not something that easy to do. Now if Young can come in and pitch until a kid is actually ready then maybe not.
Yes, Bayonne, that is the question so many of us ask. Are pitchers being babied actually decreasing their arm strength and are teams losing too many games in the late innings because of the pitch count.
I earlier asked if there is any statistical evidence showing that more games were blown in the late innings decades ago when starters went deep and usually one or two relievers would be used rather than the pitch count and constant parade of lefty/righty match ups like we see today. To add to that, how long did a starter’s career and efficiency last? Are today’s starters throwing better at the later stages of their careers than their counterparts of 25 years ago? If we could just find out, it might settle the debate somewhat.
Now that is a statistic I’d love to see.
“I earlier asked if there is any statistical evidence showing that more games were blown in the late innings decades ago when starters went deep and usually one or two relievers would be used rather than the pitch count and constant parade of lefty/righty match ups like we see today. ”
Baseball Prospectus actually has done research on that. A few of their findings:
1) Late game leads are in fact getting blown at an exceding rate (although, the book I read this in does admit its sample size is a bit skewed in favor of before 1 inning closers). While bullpen aces are very valuable, handcuffing them to just he 9th inning (when usually the outcome is all but dtermined) actually hurts the team in the long run. Bring back the “fireman”. If you have a 1 run lead in the 7th inning with the opposing 3,4,5 hitters due up, wwhy save your best reliever for 2 more innings?*
2) Pitch counts are effective. And that is coming from actual doctors. The idea that pitchers are getting hurt more often is misleading. We have more methods of discovering and diagnosing injury. Holding up Nolan Ryan as the standard is completely unfair. The reason we all think so highly of him is because he was an anomoly. If he was just like everyone back in the Good Old Days that Never Really Happened we wouldn’t give a damn about him. The plain fact is the average career is lasting longer and pitchers when healthy are reamining more effective deeper into the season.
3) LOOGYs are actually a good thing. Yes, most specialization in the bullpen is in fact counter productive, but a specialist to mow down lefty sluggers actually seems to be a good bullet in any team’s gun.
4) 4 days rest seem to be overkill. There is no evidence of any sort of health or perfomance benefit to making a starter rest 4 days instead of 3. In fact, since you then end up carrying a 5 th starter who most likely is a AAAA player (seriously, look at some of the guys starting games), a team would probably be better off with 4 starters. That gives 7 extra starts to guys like Santana and Dickey. It also gives teams an extra roster spot. *
* Ya, I know that neither of these will change due to the union and agents, I’m just saying thse might help teams in the long run.
Hi Donal,
Thanks for a very appreciative research on the questions I raised. As I thought, your findings do show that the in-game strategy of not having the old fashion fireman come in earlier to put out the flame and continue has caused more late innings loses.
But it might be a catch-22. If pitch counts do enable pitchers to be more effective in the latter stages of their careers one must also apply this to relievers as well as starters. Hence, no two or three innings stints every third game or so,either and because of that, more games blown in the seventh and eighth. Although, as we saw in Miami, game can easily be blown in the ninth as well.
But what I question about pitch count is why teams with younger pitchers implore them so much. If there is not going to be any noticeable difference during their prime years, in this day of free agency and players rarely staying with clubs most of their career, why should a team with the younger staff save the innings for another club seven or eight years later? Let them deal with it then. If pitch counts do save a pitcher’s arm for when he is older, why should a team be concerned with the pitcher’s career maybe ten years later if the chances are he won’t stick with them or that there will be more young arms out there to replace them?
It almost sounds as if MLB is working under the directives of the Player’s Union, doesn’t it?
Thanks again.
Joe
“If pitch counts do enable pitchers to be more effective in the latter stages of their careers one must also apply this to relievers as well as starters. ”
No, because the work loads are so different. Generally, a reliever should get no where near a starter’s pitch count. That would be a sign of a big problem.
“But what I question about pitch count is why teams with younger pitchers implore them so much.”
Because of the increased work load, mainly. Not just the amount of work but also the intensity.
“If there is not going to be any noticeable difference during their prime years, in this day of free agency and players rarely staying with clubs most of their career, why should a team with the younger staff save the innings for another club seven or eight years later? Let them deal with it then. If pitch counts do save a pitcher’s arm for when he is older, why should a team be concerned with the pitcher’s career maybe ten years later if the chances are he won’t stick with them or that there will be more young arms out there to replace them?”
Good luck maintaining a pitching staff or finding a trading partner with that attitude.
Also, it about saving the pitchers for later in the season as much as later in their careers.
“It almost sounds as if MLB is working under the directives of the Player’s Union, doesn’t it?”
A little. And this is not the only time you’ll see that. But, the players have a right to look out for their own best interest. Good luck running a baseball league without baseball players.
You know why I blame Ramirez more in this case?
Cause it’s going to have an affect on the starters at some point.
We have already seen Dickey pull a Turk Wendel on a rosin bag because he got lifted in a game in favor of the gang that couldn’t throw straight.
Niese deserved a decision today and Ramirez took it away from him.
This is how Starters get injured and overthrow because they try and do anything to stop the pen from taking over and ruining their stats and that means they start doing things DIFFERENTLY from what they are doing now that is keeping us in the lead before the Bloopsey twins get ahold of it!
This just in regarding Niese.
johnstrubel (Blogger / Podcaster) Niese has flu-like symptoms, fever. I did notice his jersey was soaked by 2nd inn. Thought it was just high pitch count. Wrong. #Mets
http://twitter.com/johnstrubel/statuses/201833784566480896
Radio guys said he was ill.
Yeah but if we didn’t have anybody on base he was going to pitch the 7th. He was taken out for a PH, a PH hitting 175 who was ill as well with Baxter hitting 438 as a PH on the pine.
Not saying that I would have pulled him, although we really have no idea how ill he was. I was just commenting that they said he was ill. As for using Davis? Yeah, should have used Baxter.
Did Niese advise Terry that he was through for the day or was he up to going another inning despite being ill? Or did his catcher notice a change in velocity to the last few batters Jonathan faced?
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/05/mets-likely-to-offer-wright-a-long-term-deal.html
This should be fun tomorrow!!!
Oh god! lol
I just posted it on RDM. I hope I have time to waste tomorrow. I am sure that will go right back into the same discussion as well. Hopefully we can instead discuss the merits instead of what we have already discussed a little too much.
TR,
Might be because both are related to the other. The only way to avoid this is if we ALL AGREE not to make suggestions or comments on personnel moves past, present and possibly in the future and stay focused on the game itself. Meaning, no suggestions about whom to bring up or whom to bring down, whom to be released and comments about the general manager one way or the other (which means me as well). Those comments can be regulated to when the topic is posted in MMO, but not about the game day itself.
No Joey they are all not related. Of course I want to discuss moves and pending moves and trade ideas. I am just so dang tired of all of them going back to Omar vs Sandy, Saber vs Traditional, Krod and Beltran, in it out of it, Reyes vs Wright. LOL. There is only so many times those things can be discussed. How many times in the last 2 months do you think you have posted your opinion on the Krod trade? I think we all got it.
I know that it’s early, but these numbers are pathetic:
Frank Francisco: 8.56 ERA 1.97 WHIP, .333 BAA
Ramon Ramirez: 4.66 ERA, 1.60 WHIP, .288 BAA
Manny Acosta: 9.53 ERA, 2.00 WHIP, .343 BAA
Hi All,
Notice the back and forth personal remarks between others from both sides of the camps?
Not taking sides, but this is what I meant about a bit more courtesy. It would make for a much credible debate – though perhaps less lively.
Just some food for thought from NJ again:
http://realdirtymets.com/2012/05/14/a-look-at-the-nl-east-record-at-the-start-of-the-7th-8th-9th-innings/
So even adding in the bullpen meltdowns the Mets are 14-3 when leading heading into the 7th inning. 15-1 when leading heading into the 8th and 15-1 when leading heading into the 9th.
So while the bullpen is bad, as we have mentioned, Ike being awful and being the guy to come up the most with RISP is hurting the team much worse overall.
If you really want to see what is going on though why don’t you look at the numbers of leads LOST after the 7th inning becuse this data is hiding some games where the Pen blew that lead they got and the offense covered up by regaining the lead!
I showed you two examples of leads the pen blew only to have the Offense make that data your posting look like it was a lead held!
That data sort of HIDES those mistakes by assuming they held the lead they actually gave up!
So your 15 and 1 is really a 13-4, Your tied is a virtual coin flip after yesterday.
We would have had the lead in the 8th yesterday if Ramirez didn’t give it up.
And we HAD the lead in the 9th yesterday despite ramirez and still lost!
Easy to hide data when you limit the data your collecting to avoid where a lot of the damage has been done!
Wasn’t there a post about a week ago or so commenting on the high amount of blown save situations this season? So after that 4-0 start, our pen as a group has been very inconsistent and we have played .500 ball despite that, but could have been much, much better. Having little confidence in one’s pen affects all areas of play by others and the moves made by the manager.
While two games are not an indication of an individual or the relief corps it would have been nice coming home with an eight game winning streak and eight games over .500 than having lost two out of three in the ninth and the gutsy come from behind and two-out hitting going for naught.
Yet the end results are what you see above..
So the fact a guy gave up 20 runs wouldn’t matter because the offense scored 21 after he screwed the pooch?
Really?
We are evaluating the PEN…What THEY do matters despite the fact that the rest of the team picked them up.
Because they DID pick them up yesterday only to see it blown again!
Hey Guys,
Can you include the name of the one you are replying to in your responses? On emails, we don’t know who they are directed to and who is the intended receipient of the insult is. We all get our own share without having to absorb those of others too!