4
2012
Alderson: Harvey Is Not Ready, Still A Work In Progress
An article by 
Andy Martino of the Daily News, had some candid comments from Mets GM Sandy Alderson regarding the readiness on Mets pitching prospect Matt Harvey. Regarding his readiness, Alderson echoed what we’ve been preaching here on MMO since Spring Training:
“Aside from Matt himself — and I love that he thinks this way — there is no one in the organization who feels he is ready to be in the major leagues.”
In the last 3-4 days alone I must have fielded a dozen questions or responded to comments on MMO telling our readers that Matt Harvey is nowhere near ready in terms of commanding all of his his pitches and basically learning how to use both sides of the plate to get hitters out. He has great raw stuff, but we are talking about a pitcher who jumped from A to AA to AAA in one calendar year since throwing his first professional pitch for the Mets almost 13 months ago.
Gun to my head if anyone asked me where Harvey would start this season I would have said Binghamton without hesitation. Instead he started the season at Triple-A Buffalo and from what I’ve seen of him, and no I don’t mean reading boxscores, and the first hand accounts from those who have also seen him, he is simply not ready and is still a work in progress which is exactly how Aldreson sees him.
Like I wrote yesterday, put away the notion that Harvey or Jeurys Familia will be here before September 1st when rosters expand. It ain’t happening. Instead look to players like Jeremy Hefner, Garrett Olson and Dylan Owen. Much is being made about the rehabbing Chris Young, but for now he is just an afterthought, and slow news day fodder. You wont see him on this team until he can show some velocity, consistency and an ability to toss at least 80 pitches in one outing, which was pretty much the same standard applied to Johan Santana. When he’s close to doing that, we’ll let you know.
As I wrote on Thursday, I expect DJ Carrasco and Jeremy Hefner to get the call today if they haven’t already, with Garrett Olson as a darkhorse. Fernando Cabrera is another option if they want to give Carrasco some more time in Buffalo.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 42 | 28 | .600 | - |
| Nationals | 34 | 35 | .493 | 7.5 |
| Phillies | 34 | 37 | .479 | 8.5 |
| Mets | 25 | 40 | .385 | 14.5 |
| Marlins | 22 | 47 | .319 | 19.5 |
Last updated: 06/18/2013
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I have no problem with waiting and making sure these young prospects are as ready as they can be – no matter what the need right now at the big league level.
Let’s give them every opportunity to succeed once they come up, instead of promoting them early out of desperation.
Alderson is a moron putting down his players in the press. I hope Harvey proves him wrong.
LOL, how is he putting him down and how exactly can Harvey prove him wrong?
Bashing the kid’s confidence that’s what I mean. Telling the media he is a work in progress and saying the only person in the world who thinks Harvey can pitch in the majors is Matt Harvey. That’s an insult! And he can prove him wrong by firing off a string of 2 and 3 hit shutouts with 10+Ks and getting here before July!
Because he said he doesn’t think he is ready for the majors? Even if he pitches two no hitters in June that doesn’t mean either way that he is proving anyone wrong. He didn’t insult him. Would you rather Alderson to have said he is completely ready and we are just holding him there for now? What sense would that make?
Bash, Bash, Bash… never read….
““When we bring him up, we hope to do so and not have to send him back. This is not about filling an immediate need. This is about the long-term stability of the organization and the team.”
This means that the Mets are committed, beyond any chance of temptation by Harvey’s promise, to allowing the 22-year-old enough time to fully develop. And despite the righthander’s spring training declaration that he was ready to be a big leaguer, his 32 minor league starts have made clear that he remains, as Alderson put it Thursday, “a work-in-progress who we hope turns into a masterpiece.””
Yeah, that is surely wrecking his confidence.
You are reading way too much into what he said. I’m quite certain Matt Harvey wouldn’t take anything he said as an insult. All he did was give an honest assessment. I hope Harvey does force the issue with great pitching that would indicate he’s ready, but until then this is a non issue.
Agreed, when you say things like turn into a masterpiece and bring him up never to go back down those are praise not detractors.
Yes, even those of us who are not fans of Sandy Alderson understood exactly what he was getting at – that Harvey still needs some work before he is ready to make the jump to the big leagues. And Sandy correctly credited this consensus to those within the organization.
K Maxx – - I read what you read but came to a different conclusion. Sandy is really doing what’s in Matt’s best interest. “Bashing the kid’s confidence ….” Competitors don’t think as you’re suggesting. The kid will be in Citi when he’s ready.
Have you even seen him pitch in Buffalo? No? Stop talking out of your ass then.
Seriously, what would he rather Alderson say? “Well of course Matt is ready but we are holding him back for no apparent reasons because of our loyalty to Schwinny.” LOL.
usually the same fans that scream about the FO blowing smoke or “lying” to the fans are the ones that get all bent out of shape when they tell the truth. Or anything at all.
This comment was pretty innocuous. simply saying he still has some things to work on, which is exactly (I am sure) what they tell him. And he knows it too. Sandy didn’t say he sucks, he has no talent, or he will never be able to do it. Sure he has the cocky comfidence to think he is ready (hell, every MiL guy probably does, even Schwinny!).
now, if this comment makes him crawl into a fetal position, sucking his thumb, and give up trying, then he was never going to make it anyway. But if he wants to take it as a little challenege to “prove him wrong”, wonderful. that is exactly what the team wants to see, the guy bust his ass to nail down what he needs to be ready. And at that point, they will call him up.
Actually, I agreed with you trs. Harvey is not ready and anyone who thinks otherwise is foolish. Mejia thought he was ready too. Remember how that went? Give Harvey 100-150 innings in AAA to sharpen his stuff and THEN talk about the possibility of calling him up.
I know you agreed. I was just commenting on the previous guy’s attack.
usually the same fans that scream about the FO blowing smoke or “lying” to the fans are the ones that get all bent out of shape when they tell the truth. Or anything at all.
This comment was pretty innocuous. simply saying he still has some things to work on, which is exactly (I am sure) what they tell him. And he knows it too. Sandy didn’t say he is lousy, he has no talent, or he will never be able to do it. Sure he has the over-comfidence to think he is ready (heck, every MiL guy probably does, even Schwinny!).
now, if this comment makes him crawl into a fetal position, sucking his thumb, and give up trying, then he was never going to make it anyway. But if he wants to take it as a little challenege to “prove him wrong”, wonderful. that is exactly what the team wants to see, the guy bust his butt to nail down what he needs to be ready. And at that point, they will call him up.
You could not have said it better Stick had you the wisdom of Solomon.
I was thinking that too. That if comments like this where he praises the kid but says he is not quite ready are going to crush him then Pelfrey should be his idol of mental toughness.
Actually I have and no he’s not ready. Neither is Familia who went from being a step ahead of Harvey to about 2 steps behind with his control problems this year. He did pitch slightly better last night and got squeezed a little by the HP Ump.
“Aside from Matt himself — and I love that he thinks this way — there is no one in the organization who feels he is ready to be in the major leagues.”
Lmao, i mean.. Does he have to be a f***** a****** about it?? This guy is the bigger Dba-g i’ve seen.. His i’m better than you attitude is wearing thin on people… He hasn’t done anythign to help this ball club and somehow he thinks he’s the best GM in baseball or something… Couldn’t he just had said, he’s not ready as of yet? Or we’ll look at other options? My goodness, but of course…. SOmehow i will be wrong with this comment
Again, you also did not ready the entire thing but any chance to bash Alderson you take it site unseen.
What did you want him to say? Say that first.
I’m surprised he somehow didn’t manage to work in some cracks at Wright in there too.
Where did you get an “I’m better than you” attitude?
Matt Harvey is the only guy in the Mets organization who thinks Matt Harvey should be on the big league roster.
Sounds to me like Alderson was being straight with us. He even complimented Harvey’s attitude and said how he’s part of the long term plan.
Generally, when a guy is referred to as a masterpiece, it isn’t an insult.
“a work-in-progress who we hope turns into a masterpiece.”
That’s what I don’t get. Why look for stupid stuff to bash Alderson on? I am sure he will do enough things to truly warrant bashing instead of idiotic things like this. All GM’s do things that we can bash but this just isn’t one of them.
DJ Carrasco is coming back?Chris Young??Somebody please tell me this is all a bad dream..
Sigh.. Same people defending alderson at all times… Shocking
as opposed to the same people always making up reasons to bash him? also shocking!
no one commenting here is at all defending everything he has ever said and done. Just talking about the specific situation with harvey.
It isn’t about defending. It’s about common sense. There’s nothing here to bash him about. Go find something more worthy like the fact that Schwindy was the best person to replace Pelfrey and Hefner is next. That is a lot of bashing on it’s own.
The desert in tha HOUSE!!! you two are just amazing, can any of you tell me what exactly he’s done for you guys to love him as you do!!??? he’s done nothing to help the team and you sabergooners defend him just to defend him.. He’s arrogant as hell, everything he says is with sarcasm behibnd it…
Maybe it’s the sarcasm? LOL
Again, I am not and have not said that I love him. I gave you a perfect thing to bash him on. This however just isn’t one of them. There’s nothing there. He said he’s a guy that he thinks will become a masterpiece. How exactly is that trashing him?
well, to me, being a sarcastic smartA is actually a plus. But, that is just me.
I never said I loved him either. I don’t actually like (or more accurately, understand) all of his moves, but I do accept the fact that he has 90% more information than I do (real constraints to budget, etc.) Plus, wanting a guy, and having him want you back, don’t always go together.
I’m pretty sure you can’t find a post with my name on it gushing over getting fat frankie as a closer. Or not getting at least 1 more “real” SP to fight for a job.
I also have no particular interest in saber stuff, nor do I spend any time looking at them (and no, OBP is not a saber stat!)
bottom line, if he does something I don’t think is smart (a move, or a PR gaff) I got no problem jumping all over him for it.
Oh, and I actually look at his job as way more than the current 25man roster. that is the tip of the iceberg. Rebuilding the organization (functionally, operationally, and culturally) from top to bottom (drafting, player development) is what IMO he was primarily brought in to do in the very short term.
I agree completely with your last paragraph Stick.
Where did i say he thrases harvey?? what i said was that there was no need for him to be an as**** when making a statement about him.. I got hammered yesterday by the desert storm group for complementing MMO and pointing out how some writers sucked, yet alderson does the same and you people defend his actions… Double standard at its best!
Cmon, your not saying Alderson said Harvey sucks right?
I think we should setup maybe a GI Joe vs The Core battle. The kiddies would love it.
Again to your attempt at a point, you don’t have one. There is nothing here. Go to the Collins has some decisions post. There is plenty of room there for criticism.
simply by your reaction to the comment, it seemed pretty clear that you felt Sandy was dumping on Harvey. Really hard to take it any other way.
You guys are amazing you know, he does this all the time, he’s a sarcastic arrogant as***** who’s full of himself just because he’s ivy league and you’re not… He’s taking shots at everyone, the media, jose reyes, the mocking of the fans with his tweeter account, this guy doess this all the time… Funny how the Desert Storm little group is defending this guy at all cost…
the only funny part is how off the wall a few of you have gotten in your interpretation of Sandy. Implying because he went to an ivy league school he is an a** and full of himself?
Once a Marine, always a Marine!
Maybe that’s why if I did like him I would. You think I am a sarcastic as$ that thinks he is better than you and you think he is. Maybe it’s a trend… LOL.
well, I am too. and anyone that has a snide sense of humor (directed at people that really deserve it!) has at least 1 positive attribute.
Alex68 — Your posts keep getting nuttier. Regarding Sandy Alderson’s comments about Jose Reyes, you are dead wrong. Sandy and many of us held Jose to the same standard that all players are judged by — openness and honesty. You tried to assail me by saying I wasn’t sensitive to Jose’s DR background. You condemned Jose without knowing it by using the standard of low expectations. I expected more of Jose but you didn’t.
How is “Matt Harvey is still not ready for the majors” the same as “you’re site is good but these writers suck”?
You have no idea why you are mad. You just know Alderson said something so you need to react.
I guess you missed the part where he claimed Harvey was full of himself in that quote….
Sorry, but I didn’t see that quote. I think that’s just your own interpretation.
Take it at face value. All wannabees think they’re ready (Mejia come to mind?) before they are.
That’s why there’s a development staff. Have to defer to them on on this.
“Aside from Matt himself — and I love that he thinks this way — there is no one in the organization who feels he is ready to be in the major leagues.”
Basically saying Matt thinks he is ready but no one else does!
It was a compliment, about how he has confidence in himself.
and at this point, the molehill is the size of an Alp.
And a knock that said that confidence was not justified!
I note everyone passed on my experiment below and did not put thier name into it and said how great they felt…
More of If I can’t see it and ignore it, it can’t hurt me if you ask me.
And what is wrong with that. He even says, “and I like that”. Again, there are so many REAL things you guys can pick to bash him on. No reason to make up stuff.
Seems to me he’s praising Harvey’s competitiveness. However, be realistic. He wants Harvey to be ready to step in on day 1 and be successful. If he, and those working in player development feel now is not the time, then what’s wrong with them saying so?
Shouldn’t these kids all have that type A personality thing going?
Not only that but they should have the personality to where if Alderson really did insult him (which he obviously did not) it wouldn’t bother him.
yup. I would be way more worried if he had no confidence, thought he didn’t belong in the majors, etc.
and thinking they are great (whether the results back them up or not!) is very common among pro athletes.
Yes they should Donal, If yor boss said you were delusional about how great you were would you feel better and keep that Type “A” personality or start to have doubts?
Go back and read that quote again. Nowhere did Sandy even so much as imply, let alone say – Harvey was delusion about ‘how great he is’. All he said was he’s not quite ready, despite what Harvey himself thinks.
Much ado about nothing.
Sure he did it was right after Metsie and Alex ran up and put the fake witch nose on him.
“He’s a witch I tell you a witch.”
“He turned me into a newt…”
“A Newt?”
“I got better”….
“Burn himmmmmmm!!!!”
He did say that he feels that he is ready and he likes that. Obviously Harvey would feel he is ready and obviously a GM would like the fact that the kid believes he is ready. Wow, what a non story.
Both of you completely ignore te rest of the sentence!
Sure he thinks he is ready, Glad he feels that way but he’s WRONG! and everyone says so!
It’s the but you guys just don’t wish to see!
its the but that says Harvey is WRONG!
And if he BELIEVES something that isn’t true that is the classic definition of delusional!
LOL, BURRRRNNNN HIMMMMM.
Also in a tribute to Star Wars.
http://www.monkey-and-banana.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/star-wars-droids.jpg
LOL – I can’t debate this anymore. It’s just crazy.
Too much reading between the lines.
Me too, at this point I will only be making fun of the debate. Why, because I am bored. We need some real Mets news.
No it’s just reading the lines that were there!
You know I kind of like the Desert Storm label. It sounds like a group that could easily defeat the dynamic duo of Tha Core.
You really shouldn’t encourage that us vs them angle with what you said.
You’re right. Alex knows how much I hate grouping. I just had a weak moment. I have never understood the need to group anyway.
Duo? Has alex gone schizophrenic on us?
Well I love how the defenders are running to Sandy’s rescue in this thread…
Yes he told the truth as opposed to telling a lie. But in this case it would have been better to say nothing at all aside from “We think he needs more time right now we need him more next year than this!”
Imagine if JoeD has said something similar here such as:
““Aside from Donal himself — and I love that he thinks this way — there is no one in the organization who feels he is ready to to post opinions on MMO.”
Now replace Donal with your own name!
How good would you feel the next time you find your cursor blinking in a post comment box waiting for you to type something?
Sandy is right to stick to the Schedule with Harvey I don’t think anyone can argue with that decision. And while it is better to speak the truth to the fans in cases where you can’t say something truthflly good about one of your own players it is always best to just say nothing or say the parts of the truth that do not have any potential for controversy or affect on a player you are relying on!
Better would have been if he said “Well while we have high hopes for Harvey and the future of this team, we feel that potential future is much more important right now and would not wish to hurt Matt’s development in favor of winning a few MLB games now! We do not believe in rushing pitchers period!” We will look at other options.
No not only did he make it a slam at Harvey he threw him under a bus by saying Harvey has this ego about himself and thinks he is better than anyone else in the organization does!
CLASSLESS!
Shows about as much class as his Box of Chocolates quote regarding Reyes!
What ever happened to the concept of if you can’t say anything nice why say anything at all?
Especially when your own fate is dependent on this kid being a great pitcher for you because if he isn’t your likely to lose your job!
Wow, there is actually nothing to defend here just as there is nothing to attack. LOL. This is just pure witch huntery at it’s finest. There is so much you guys can waste your time bashing him on, why pick something as stupid as this?
Why? Because development of players is as much an excercize in psychology as it is physical prowess!
Especially where a Starting Pitcher is concerned.
Put your name in the example I gave above and tell me how you would take the statement then?
Why wreck a kids confidence when one of the reasons he is in AAA at all is to build some?
UH… he goes on to say that he wants to bring him up where he can stay up, he’s a key to toe organization and hopes he becomes a masterpiece. LOL. Nah… lets read something into the first one even though he said he likes his confidence.
Again, this is a non story. Go get on the one about Collins’ decision and talk about the lack of SP depth. There is something you are free to bash. This one, you can if you want but it will make you look like a fool.
“Aside from TRS himself — and I love that he thinks this way — there is no one in the organization who feels his Blog is worth reading.” … “We hope he will get better with time so when we read it and accept it as a legitimate newsource we can continue to read it and not have to demote it off our reading list later on”
If he said that how would you feel right now?
Pretty much the same thing he said about Harvey only the Actions that are not up to snuff is changed in that sentence!
If you said it? LOL.
However, what if that quote was followed up with
We hope he leads the Mets blogging world for many years and is never sent back to the desert. We feel he has potential to become a masterpiece.
Yup, I would be devastated. Tom Glavine would have nothing on me.
NO I meant if Alderson said it dude!
Or replace the name with anyone whose respect you were trying to gain favor of, Maybe even that big time sponsor that would pay all the bills!
I certainly didn’t expect you to care one way or other what I would say about your site!
LOL
Again, like I said if he followed up those remarks with what he did not only would I not be upset I would be feeling pretty damn good about myself.
if that wrecks his confidence, then his mental make-up would make Pelf look like Patton.
Or he could turn a guy into a pelfrey now couldn’t he?
There was no reason to say that!
None whatsoever it served NO USEFLL purpose!
It is testament to Sandy’s attitude towards his players!
Useful purpose. Let Harvey know that he likes his confidence. There. Done.
0.27 of this video sums up my thoughts on these comments:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OG-Yu495x3Y
Hahaha – one of my favorite videos. Always appropriate.
89It seems to me that a lot of posters hated Alderson THE DAY HE WAS HIRED. So you have to put those posters in a special category. The ones who hated him after Year One at least gave him a shot—an unfair shot, considering the finances—but a shot. As a famous philsopher once said: ” Whaddayagonnado?”
I gave him two offseasons and have yet to find a single move made that improves this team now or in the next two years!
How many offseason would be considered fair?
Do you count Collins or Hudgens? You have praised both at times.
Yep I give most new folks three years to show me which direction they are going in.
First year is a grace year, Up or Down is not as important as what happens in year two!
In year two I need to see some improvement in a positive direction and it’s more important if they had a reversal the year before….
The third year is important in breaking any split of the first two!
So lets say they had a slight improvement in year one but declined a bit in year two. I will give them the benefit in year two as bad circmstances and then they have to show that was the case in year three!
lets say they decline in year one but get better in year two! Ok improvement has happened and if they improve a bit more in year three or at least maintain I will be happy to giove them year 4 and maybe 5!
But two down years in a row and they either have to have a very good season in year 3 or they should be replaced!
And when I say improvement I’m not saying they have to win a WS or make the playoffs…
they merely need to be better than they were the year before!
In Collins and Hudgens case they have improved aspects of the team from where they started!
Collins has gotten them to not give up late in games and to fight even when fighting was pointless (remember the september tirade that stopped a losing streak? +++++)
Hudgens has seemingly fixed Wright and produced a batting champion!
The team has improved in two areas those two are charged with improving!
Warthen on the other hand has had his department decline every year he has been here!
he should have gone long ago!
Is that unfair?
If the team gives up on Sandy later in the season I still won’t call for his head as he will have another year to prove he can win them over!
if the team simply stops hitting this year Hudgens might be on notice that he has to stop that for next year but i wouldn’t call for his head at the end of this year!
All because of their good first year of improvement.
And showing they can improve things means they can get the job done but maybe things outside of their control might have stopped them from doing so…Such as whoever controlled the roster they failed with!
Sorry I said if the team gives up on Sandy and meant Terry
You missed it. I am saying those were good and important decisions for the Mets that Sandy made both on the short term and long term goals.
I also say that after next year if Sandy has not improved the position of this team I will be right there with you guys seeking a change. I have said that from the beginning. Much of what you guys call defending is just refusing to make judgement until I know more about the long range goals and what restrictions were placed.
I still think (just my opinion) that Sandy never intended to stay long. Was just looking to come in, stabilize the sinking ship, rebuild the foundation (basically get it pointed in the right direction) then turn over the reins and move on. After next year would be entirely possible.
This coming offseason is going to be huge. Some major decisions (DW of course #1, but sorting out the other prospects, making trades to fill in the gaps) to be made the immediately impact the ML roster. But after that, it should be a matter of just continuing on the path set, and that is likely what he turns over to the next generation.
I agree. I saw him here 3-5 years tops. How much longer does Bud have? LOL. Talk about some pissed bloggers when Sandy takes over the helm with Joe as his VP.
Mayb didn’t stick…
But what does that say about all the crap we heard about the long term plan that was the reason why Sandy was so praised for doing what he did?
I tend to agree Sandy is here to do what saves money regardless of what the fans think and when he has done that he will leave and take the bad feelings towards him with him!
He is nothing but a fall guy to do what the fans hate and then leave!
He is NOT here to fix the team long term, build a winner or win a championship!
Something the folks who have railed against Sandy have been saying for quite awhile,
only to be called crazy and wrong by those who wish to say he is here for things that aren’t true!
Did Sandy find and bring in Collins? Not really Omar did Sandy just recognized what he had at best. I do give him credit for that and if we continue to lose more games than last year I will probably blame Sandy more than Collins since Sandy put Collins in the roster position to lose more games in the first place!
And the fact he ripped apart terry’s coaching staff only underscores the notion that Sandy didn’t really like the moves terry made and fired and replaced the bench coach with one of his own guys!
Yes he brought in Hudgens and he did a good job. Do we know who suggested the name to him?
perhaps Collins himself?
Now I have not yet called for Sandy’s head just pointed out my displeasure at the moves he has made so far!
The folks who actually LIKE Sandy don’t really like the moves either or they would not keep bringing up the amont of money he had to spend as an excuse for it! They would simply say NO he made GREAT choices and we will see that in time…
No one is saying that not even the staunchest of Sandy’s fan base!
So while you can say I’m being unfair in regards to Sandy I’m not really saying anything his fans don’t also believe the only difference is I’m not making excuses for him and calling these ducks he has acquired what they truly are! Water treading FOWLS! that are now exhibiting a FOUL Stench on the field!
The arguments on both sides appear to me all about the propaganda some saying what everyone knows and those trying to hide what they themselves know to be true but wish to make excuses for to hide their feelings!
That is REALLY what the two SIDES are arguing here!
Not even you think the guys we went and got are great acquisitions nor are deals that are going to take this team to the promised land. At best the Wheeler deal is all the pro-sandy group has to hang it’s hat on which is why those guys got so pissed and worried when the post about him being on the DL was posted! It was minor but they knew if it was serious they were going to be sent into commetary hell! Becase without that they know they have NOTHING POSITIVE to justify their position on Sandy!
Fair or Unfair I’m basing my opinion of Sandy on the moves he has made. All the coaching in the world won’t fix a bad roster! And it’s a dubious notion at best that Sandy thinks Terry is doing a good job for the reasons I stated above!
When the Yankees did that to Torre there was a firestorm about how Torre was next!
When it happened to Randolf it was the start of the beginning of the end for him!
So who can say really that Sandy is happy with the one guy we think did a good job so far?
We all thought reyes did a good job too is he still here?
“Warthen on the other hand has had his department decline every year he has been here!
he should have gone long ago!”
It’s funny. When the pitching staff is actually in sync, ya’ll (by that, I mean the “Core” ) want Warthen to stay on longer. When one part of the staff is doing good and the other half bad (as usual), Warthen should be kicked to the curb. You’re right though: Warthen should’ve been given the boot, but someone on the Mets must still like him (*cough*Pelfrey*cough*)
Warthen should have been gone long ago IMO. I honestly have no idea how he is the only one to survive all the firings. I must be missing something.
Pure Bull…
NEVER ONCE has anyone on this site on EITHER side said Warthen should stay on longer or be extended!
“There’s a lot to be experienced. And there’s a lot to demonstrate. Right now, we don’t believe, is the right time to bring him to the major leagues. Probably the only person in the organization who might feel that [now is the right time] is Matt himself.”
Sandy might have simply been referring to Matt Harvey in a humorous way as the third person in that comment and nothing more.
The only other possibility (and I’m not suggesting such but just raising the question) is that the last sentence was a Freudian Slip on the part of Sandy, indicating that Harvey might also have an attitude problem thinking he knows better than others. Anyone who has been following Matt closely have any idea if that has been the case? Otherwise, the focus on Sandy instead of Harvey not ready to be brought up is completely unwarranted.
I think it’s obvious that he think Matt has a lot of confidence in himself (which is a good thing) and he likes that about him…. not much more you can read into that unless you have an agenda.
I really do get the sense by many of the things Alderson says over the last two seasons that he views his players like inventory rather than humans beings. He talks about them like they are products more than players and he seems to dehumanize them. That’s just my opinion.
While I see no evidence of that here… that is very possible as he is from a military background.
well, GMs are supposed to do that (not get attached). The only quibble would be if you think it should be hidden a little better (meaning, the GM should blow more smoke up the collective butts of the fanbase).
And then get criticized for doing that as well.
“he views his players like inventory rather than humans beings”
BINGO!
And thats the kind of thing that stops you from getting an ACE in FA or forces the guys you like who you want to keep to treat you like nothing more than a money source and decide to go to the highest bidder because it the FO treats you like a commdity might as well BE ONE and go for the most the market will bare!
they are commodities. and they know it. and have always gone for the money.
You think that Theo, Cashman and others don’t do the same? It’s their job. For too long the Mets had reacted just on emotion and fan whims. Almost ALL of us said that hopefully Sandy would be the adult in the room.
yet jeter still got more money than any other team would have offerred didn’t he?
Is that because he commoditized Jeter and refused to pay more than the commodity was worth?
that commodity had 2 worths. results on the field, and $$ from revenue he brought in. and of course, appeasing the fan base. so he got paid for that too.
Oh and that wasn’t true about Reyes?
Especially considering or current attendance issues it wasn’t prudent to keep one of your biggest attendance draws?
There’s that famous argument Branch Rickey had with Ralph Kiner.
But, Rickey was just an accountant, not a real baseball man.
Now it is absurd to describe Branch Rickey as an accountant. Far be it.
From his biography on line:
“He was a catcher on the baseball team at Ohio Wesleyan University and, in 1903, signed a contract with Terre Haute, Indiana of the Class B Central League, making his professional debut on June 20. Rickey was assigned to Le Mars, Iowa of the Class D Iowa-South Dakota League. Later, he spent two seasons in the major leagues, debuting as a St. Louis Brown in 1905. Sold to the New York Highlanders in 1907, Rickey could neither hit nor field while with the club, and his batting average dropped below .200. One opposing team stole 13 bases while Rickey was behind the plate, setting a record which still stands a century later. Rickey also injured his throwing arm and retired as a player after just one year. (During this period, Rickey also spent two seasons—1904 and 1905—coaching baseball and football and teaching at Allegheny College in Pennsylvania.)”
That doesn’t sound like an accountant . It sounds like a major league baseball player with limited skills but a great baseball mind who went on to become an innovative front office man being credited with developing the modern minor league system. He obtained great players with the Gas House Gang before achieving success with Brooklyn. He can be called a miser when it came to player salaries with no resources to build upon and thus he knew that the Pirates could finish last with or without Ralph Kiner
Swing and a miss on the sarcasm ball.
M. Donald Grant was the same way and talked about his players in that same manner. I think it’s because neither of the two are baseball people or had baseball roots. They are just lawyers who were charged with running the team as a business. There is a disconnect between Alderson and baseball. The other thing is he comes to us after Minaya who was the complete opposite. Minaya loved the game and the players and got too close to his players at times. When he’d speak of his players it was like he knew them all his life and he’d mix in things about them the public never really knew. He even sent all his players birthday cards and Christmas cards every year. I once heard him say in 2009 that he liked to attend 30-40 minor league games a season. If that were true, when did he have any time to be a Mets GM??? We have two different folks on opposite ends of the spectrum.
And even caused Carlos Delgado not to sign with us because he tried to play the race card.
I think that was overblown . If they were both Italian and Omar said come on Carlo, we’re both paisons, it never even makes the papers. But I know many like you called Omar Minaya a rac-ist from the word go, but I never viewed him that way. The whole Los Mets thing to me was marketing the team to a city where the Latino community was the majority not the minority.
Except not. NYC is still not a Latin majority. I have no issue with Los Mets or anything, but don’t twist facts.
Delgado’s agent said it was Bernazard who was speaking to him informally and that was what pissed off Delgado.
Hey buddy you don’t know me. I defended Omar until the very end.
Hey buddy you don’t know me. I defended Omar until the very end”
That is true…
Excellent words, Peter.
That’s the point many of us raise about the differing roles of the general manager.
I do believe Sandy gets undue credit for giving the kids on the current roster a chance to show what they could do due and that his plan for “rebuilding” and being fiscally more responsible has less to do with player decisions than it was the Madoff situation gave the Mets no other choice and/or that he doesn’t believe in spending like Grant. Without a combination of both, commitment to the kids and to keeping certain more expensive veterans on the team to blend in with them (along with certain free agent signings) I think the club is on the wrong path.
On the other hand, that does not let Omar off the hook. Omar might have just continued signing free agents and trading away prospects for veteran players and thus would never have given Duda, Davis, Gee, Neise and others the chance to show what they could do and though that might be a good solution for the short term, that would have hindered our progress in the long term as we know it already has.
I think we would be better having someone in the middle ala an Omar Anderson instead of being extremely one side or the other.
** meant Omar Aldeson, of course.
I think, I think, I think… again none of us know yet. It’s just too early. One thing was certain the Mets had to cut payroll, another thing was certain they needed to get younger and rebuild to an extent. Now we get to wait and see if that happens. So far we have cut payroll and are younger for sure but now we get to see if we rebuild or not.
Birthday cards? why not cakes? Hell Sandy was going to send a box of chocolates but the shipping cost was too much.
Stick,
I agree that Sandy might have come over for the short term but I think it was more to put the Mets financial store in order than to focus on player development and personnel since his expertise is in the legal and business areas. That CRG had to come in to assist in downsizing shows something was wrong before and after Madoff.
I still find it hilarious that you think that in 30+ years in baseball Sandy has not learned to evaluate players or doesn’t know more about baseball than ANYONE on this site.
It’s been well documented that the roles of the general manager in sports are different and vary from team to team. There are some who are more involved in the business end whereas player development is overseen by others.
In fact, this is the job description of a general manager according to Inc.Com:
“The General Manager outlines the key job information, tasks, specifications, and compensation and benefits. The description should be used when defining the role of any of the following executive positions within a company: CEO, Executive Director, Operations Manager, Executive Assistant, and General Manager. This description is customizable to your company’s usage.”
Yes, the description can be customizable to include player personnel decisions in sports. But it also shows how a General Manager can indeed wear many a hat. As far as Sandy’s training and expertise, after graduating Harvard Law School he worked for Farella Braun & Martel in San Francisco, California. According to the firm’s website, this is what they specialize in:
“We are practiced trial lawyers. Our experience includes complex litigation involving class actions, antitrust, and unfair competition; business litigation involving securities, commodities and M&A disputes; intellectual property and technology litigation involving patents, trademarks, trade secrets and copyrights; and environmental litigation involving natural resources, federal and state cost recovery, CEQA, Proposition 65 and complex toxic torts. Farella Braun + Martel is regarded highly for our employment, construction, insurance coverage, and white collar criminal experience, and is regularly sourced for our proven appellate capabilities.”
Sandy left the firm for the Oakland A’s to serve as it’s legal counsel. He became the general manager two years later. In 24 months being involved in Oakland’s legal administration did he then acquire the professional expertise to be promoted to General Manager making decisions on player personnel or was it for other purposes as described above?
Why is it that he can’t be perceived as one who handles the business aspects of the club rather than the baseball end? There is nothing shameful or wrong in that. His background in law and business certainly shows he is amply qualified to handle the rigors of a major sports organization that relies ons such individuals as well as those with baseball background. His assignments with the Commissioner’s Office have included the investigation of corruption in the Dominican Republic. He has lectured at the University of California, Berkeley Haas School of Business. With San Diego, he was the Chief Executive Officer with Kevin Towers serving as the general manager.
So what is wrong attributing to him the running of the club in the perspectives that many of us believe he does? In itself, that is a major responsibility. And do we then say the reverse was true of Omar, that as General Manager he was also in charge of the complex legal and business operations of the club?
Paul DePodesta was hired by Sandy as the Vice President in charge of player development and scouting instead. Is it because under Podesta (who also has great faith in sabre metrics) after a few years neither the Dodgers or Pardres faired well while the reverse was true Oakland did that the emphasis on baseball decisions is being placed more on Sandy instead of Paul.? It might be that the issue is less about Sandy and more about the value of working “outside the box”.
“but I think it was more to put the Mets financial store in order than to focus on player development and personnel”
You don’t see how the 2 might be related?
the Madoff thing was not the only problem. It forced the issue to the forefront and made the Wilpons and MLB deal with it.
Madoff didn’t cause the attendance decline. Madoff didn’t cause the franchise to bleed money. Madoff took away the safety net. If the Mets were a successful franchise, the Madoff thing would have been a blip on the radar.
The organization was broken top to bottom. On the field and in the offices. You can’t fix one without fixing the other.
Donal,
Sometimes more than one individual on the executive level is required to fix a problem. That’s why one might not be connected to the other. Are you sure you still want to compare Sandy’s background to that Branch Rickey and imply Rickey’s success came from being an accountant and not a baseball man?
Don’t bother. You completely missed the point.
Donal don’t waste your time. I showed him about a dozen links probably many more than that which showed scouts, farm directors and many other “Baseball People” giving Alderson credit for teaching them how to every thing they know about talent evaluation. He still chose not to believe it. Can you say “Agenda”. Bill Gayton. Grady Fuson themselves credit Alderson for teaching them a whole new way to evaluate talent. Basically you bag groceries, and then become a baseball man but if you went to Harvard Law School there’s no way possible you can then become a baseball man. I find it funny though how he thought Theo Epstein being a lawyer was different because he wrote for his college sports paper. LMAO.
My point was specifically about Sandy and nothing more.
So when one asks “You don’t see how the 2 might be related?” and changes the unmistakable issue I was raising from that of an individual’s role to that of the organization itself, then all I can say is “don’t bother, you completely missed the point”.