Things Aren’t As Bleak As They Seem For The 2012 Mets

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• Bayonne Mets Fan April 1, 2012 at 7:29 pm

  Occupy last place
• srt April 1, 2012 at 7:47 pm

  Well, there’s last place and then there’s last place.

  If I’m watching a team that plays well together with crisp defense, with some of the younger players making some positive strides – with a record no worse than last year…. it should be entertaining.

  Team playing poorly and completely buried by mid season will be another story.

  And Bay? I believe he’s just done. Having him in the middle of that lineup is going to be a problem. His production projects to be what you’d expect at the bottom of the order.
• Joey D. April 1, 2012 at 10:06 pm

  I keep on thinking of what both, 2011 and 2012 could have been or will be. We have the nucleus of a good team that has simply gotten no support from the front office.

  Why get rid of a 35 year old .300 hitter who just signed a two year contract with the world champions for a 34 year old center fielder who batted south of .250 and a two year contract? Granted, the pick of outfield free agents this year was not so hot but if Beltran was not considered good enough for two years due to his age or knees, then why not someone younger and more dependable like Michael Cuddyar, Jason Kubal, Josh Willingham or even Nick Swischer from across the East River.

  And why couldn’t we try to re-sign an all star shortstop who could save games with the range and throwing arm one drools for and also just happened to win a batting title?

  And with our pitching woes, why did we A) go after an Ed Rauch instead of one or two like Valverde, Afadtt, Lopez and B) perhaps a starter still in his prime like Adam Wainwright, C.J. Wilson, Marc Buhrle, etc.

  Not all of them, just one from column A and one from column B, a different outfielder (or keeping Pagan?) and retaining our shortstop. That’s three free agents – an outfielder, a starter and a reliever. Not going to suggest which ones for I’m only so much familiar with each, not too sure of their defensive skills and don’t know how they would blend in with the team. But I do believe there were players out there that would have helped make us a contender and better than the limited lot we got – which helped us get those underdog tees.

  And even we lost out signing any of them, at least we would know that the club was trying.

  Sandy told us the Madoff situation had no effect on his operations. But he went after a half dozen reclamation projects or rejects last season (aka – cheap signings). Then he told us the team has been losing money since 2009. Then he continues adding no team losing $70 million in one year could go after those higher priced free agents. Well, since he indirectly admits his first statement was not true but the the next two are, then, with the knowledge that the Mets are going to continue losing money in 2012 (on paper, since that does not include SNY, etc.) I don’t see how things can be looking rosier this year or the next few seasons. It is rare and not wise to count on kids coming out of the farm system next season and the one after that to jell at the same time and fill the many gaps that we unfortunately have.
  • srt April 1, 2012 at 11:18 pm

    They didn’t get rid of Beltran for Torres.
    They traded Beltran for Wheeler. Zero chance Beltran’s first choice would have been the Mets even if they had the money, which they didn’t. Beltran stated he wanted a chance for a ring with his next contract and he wasn’t getting that here.

    Given Pagan’s 2011 and his ST so far this year, I have no problem with that trade.

    Reyes – since he took the only formal offer he received, I think that says it all. Mets clearly weren’t interested in topping Miami’s offer and Reyes wasn’t interested in holding out to see what other offers he might have received over the winter.

    I do believe the loss of revenues, loans out all over, and the trial hanging over their heads was the driving force behind what was or more to the point….was not done this off season. No way Wilpons was putting his hand in his own pocket to improve the team much. Not when there was a chance he’d have to sell.

    With that threat abated for the time being, I fully expect the FO to start exercising this ‘flexibility they’ve been preaching. I think the Niese extension is the first we’ve seen of this.

    I’m willing to be patient through this season and off season to see where they go from here.
    • t agee April 2, 2012 at 12:03 am

      No chance Beltran was re signing here, especially after all ownership did to embarrass him over his surgery, Walter Reed and the magazine article.

      Can’t see him flanked by Duda and Bay either. That would be ugly.

      Not to mention the cash or the chance to have a top starting pitcher here for 6-10 years.
      • Joey D. April 2, 2012 at 12:53 am

        Agree, T Agree,

        Beltran would have taken a cut in salary rather than stay in New York after 2011 thanks to the way he was treated by ownership. I just wonder if it was it Omar himself, Omar and his bosses together, or Omar taking the rap for his bosses. Doesn’t really matter, one way or the other.

        As mentioned to SRT, my point was to compare the switch in outfielders and I should have been specific that I was talking in terms of the bat and not the specific fielding position (another mistake on my part, and I apologize for this causing confusion) and to have had Torres become our fourth outfielder with one of the few decent free agent outfielders that were out there to negotiate for.
        • t agee April 2, 2012 at 8:50 am

          Hi Joey,

          I don’t know of anyone that thinks Minaya had anything to do with any of those incidents do you?

          I never even heard it raised before that Minaya was involved in any of that.

          Sure Torres is a book mark in a trade of Pagan for Ramirez to tide us over and get us to Kirk and give him the time to recover from his labrum surgery and come up here with 200-400 AB’s under his belt. Other than K-Rod and Izzy the bullpen was really poor last year, Ramirez has one of the best ERA’s in MLB since 2008. Torres will just have to do in CF in the meantime.

          I liked Pagan a lot but I have no explanation for his frequent brain cramps both in the field as well as on the bases and if the recent past is anything to go by Ramirez should out perform Pagan even as just a set up guy. Duda’s a young good looking kid who deserves a shot and there’s no replacement ready for Bay so we have to live with him too.

          Even if Beltran would have come back playing in between those two on his surgically repaired knee would not have been pretty and it would have blocked Kirk.

          Not to say that the trade is a guaranteed win for us or puts the right pieces in the right place but it moves us a little closer to that end.
    • Joey D. April 2, 2012 at 12:36 am

      Hi SRT,

      Might have misunderstood the gist I was getting at.

      Was saying this team could have been considered a contender if the front office went after just a few good (not superstar free agents. The Beltran/Torres thing was just to point out what the switch in outfielders has produced – that we dumped a .300 hitter to get a player of lesser quality one year his younger and although the free agent outfield picks were slim (sorry slim pickins) there were others we could have obtained to to be our regular center fielder who were a little bit younger. My mistake was not adding I too like the Torres trade but that it would been better with him being the fourth outfielder – not our starting center fielder.

      Reyes never got a formal offer and the team had the option of beginning formal negotiations way before Miami came into play – or even that period between the end of the season and the free agent market. Why literally give other teams an open opportunity to ante up the price if it could be avoided? Even if Jose took a wait and see attitude, at least from this end the Mets could rightfully defend themselves like St. Louis when Puljos walked and the fans blasted the player and not the general manager.

      I would agree with your financial assessment of the Mets except for the lack of credibility on the subject as we’ve been told. If it was the Madoff situation hanging over the Wilpons’ head, why would Sandy say it wasn’t when he arrived at Port St. Lucie in 2011? Why, with the prospects looking better for Fred and Jeff toward the end of the year regarding that civil suit would Sandy then say it wasn’t the civil suit but that no team could go after costly free agents with a $70 million loss of revenue… and suddenly add that it just wasn’t 2011 but also 2010 and 2009?

      Sandy was also interviewed earlier this week by Mike Francesa and said that he did have money to spend last year if he saw fit to do so. How does that jive with his saying he had no choice but to cut payroll in 2011? If he had some money to spend, then why put Beltran on the open market – before Zach Wheeler even came into the equation? Davis was out for the year and Duda was being anchored at first.

      And why the downsizing of the entire franchise from the office staff to the rookie league team? Why hire CRG to come in and straighten out the way they handled money? Even more to the point, why the need for two loans? The Wilpons had the money to meet operating expenses and were holding back due of the uncertainty of the civil suit? It seems highly doubtful that a business would have the money to pay off it’s expenses but take two loans to meet them instead. And it was the infusion of SNY money for those minority shares that paid those loans back – not the out of court settlement.

      I would think a half billion dollars going down the drain and the sudden stoppage of those nice dividend returns that they were using and continued to count on had a lot to do with – as well as the upcoming debt they owe for the construction bonds plus the killing losses to the parent company, Sterling Equtities.

      The story – and the excuses – have been changing. And there are too many loose ends to make it seem that the civil suit created such uncertainty as to be the root cause of the problem. That’s why I don’t believe the financial situation has turned a new leaf. I just think they cut the bleeding a bit.

      Ciao,
      Joe
      • any April 2, 2012 at 7:26 am

        The organization got a makeover when sandy came in. Trimming the fat and waste (rightsizing?), etc. Being broke certainly was an impetus, but it really sounds like something that should have happened anyway. Companies often get bloated over time, and while cuts might look draconian, it does not mean necessarily that they were cutting vital stuff, but rather, eliminating unneeded overhead.

        and Madoff was not the reason for the reported losses. That was purely from revenue dropping (attendance). At most, not having the Madoff piggy bank meant they had to go to the banks for a loan instead of using Madoff funds, but really there was no difference in that they had to borrow to stay afloat. Just depended on who they borrowed from.

        I also have a question about your beliefs (not sure where you fit on the spectrum). You say that a couple of mid-level FA types would have made them a contender (not sure who you meant, but I guess at this point Beltran could have been one of them). Yet, lots of people are running around calling this team a joke, one of the worst teams in MLB, and years and years away from even sniffing respectability. And those 2 ideas seem counter intuitive.
      • srt April 2, 2012 at 9:17 am

        HI Joey,

        When you say….’Was saying this team could have been considered a contender if the front office went after just a few good (not superstar free agents.’…..I’m assuming you mean this season, not last?

        I think I understand your position enough after reading your daily comments and discussion I’ve read in the Shoutbox. I know you didn’t agree with betting rid of Beltran and KRod last season – as much for the mentoring aspect you’ve mentioned as for you might be one of those believing we were still in the hunt. I just don’t see that latter. IMO, there was no way we were reaching post season. Much as I loved Beltran, I had no problem with that trade, given what we got back in return. I know it remains to be seen what Wheeler will do for us but the beginning of 2011, we were thinking we’d be lucky to get anything for a Beltran trade so that was a plus. Again….I don’t think there was any way in hell Beltran was staying with this team even if they could afford to sign him. He wanted a contender – we’re not there yet – among other issues concerning Beltran and the Mets.

        SA did comment when the trial was avoided that this does afford more flexibility for planning going forward. If that deal had been struck last Oct., we might have done more in the off season. We might have made a formal offer to Reyes. Don’t think with Reyes it would have mattered b/c I think Miami targeted him and would have topped it. Plus it really does sound like that’s exactly where Reyes wanted to go.

        Can’t answer the questions on what SA knew/believed when he got here regarding the Madoff situation. I just don’t have privy to that type of information. I do know he commented somewhere recently about that developing since he got here – hence what he said up front when he got here vs what he said over time. Given the fact that the Wilpons needed investors, needed to take out additional loans over the past year – it does sound like the financial situation was more negative than when he got here. I think the payroll was reduced to what it was b/c there was no way the Wilpons were going to over extend themselves past moderate revenues for 2012 – especially with the chance they’d have to sell hanging over their heads.

        I too believe as Stick said above: change was needed. Payroll revolving around a handful of guys was too high and afforded no flexibility, especially with the down revenues. I think SA made that point pretty clear up front and we all knew loosely the path he was taking with this team.

        I’m not in the camp of hating everything he’s done since he’s got here as some of my fellow Met fans are. Some of the moves have been good, others have not worked out. No different than any other GM. For myself, I had no problem with anything that was done save not resigning Reyes. But that’s a done deal and no changing that.

        As far as there was flexibility to make moves mid season ’11 if they were in the race, I believe that comment was meant to assure the fans all is not as bleak as some believe. If we were in the race, if the season was better, revenues likely would have been up and there probably would have been some flexibility. Beltran might not have been traded. Don’t know about KRod but maybe not. But he pulled the plug when he did believing their chances of post season were remote at that point. A decision I agreed with.

        The financial situation was a moving target – hence the reason for different decisions and different quotes at different times. What the Wlpons believed – or wanted us to believe – right after Madoff was arrested was obviously not the same mindset as when they were hit with the clawback suit. And not the same once that suit was settled out of court. Not that hard to understand then a change of mindset going forward.

        Too early to tell – IMO – to start rating the current GM. I’m willing to be a little more patient. Let’s see what this season and this off season brings.
• Mark April 1, 2012 at 10:15 pm

  As an older Mets fan that grew up watching the Mets of the 1970′s and beyond what I always believed what made Met fans special was our belief in the underdog, have we gotten so big that we have forgotten that? This team doesn’t have a bum like Joe Torre as manager any more. Terry Collins is a very capable manager that has followed the same path for success that Davey Johnson did. He learned about our minor league players and then became the major league manager of the Mets. Spring is a time for hope. Isn’t it about time things went the Mets way? Every other team in this division has issues. Isn’t this the franchise of Tug McGraw and “you gotta believe”? For all you Mets haters either you are not true Mets fans or are spoiled having become Mets fans when the Mets were already good in the mid 80′s. To you I say learn your Mets history and take an optimistic approach to the upcoming season. What will it cost you?
  • Joey D. April 1, 2012 at 10:59 pm

    Mark,

    I think I am a little bit older than you.

    I am an original new breeder who saw Al Jackson pitch the first Met shutout in history back in April, 1962 against the Phillies at the Polo Grounds. It was in that fourth inning when Frank Thomas tied a major league record by getting hit by the pitch twice in the same inning. Later on that season I saw the Mets hold on to beat the Giants 5-4 by breaking a tie in the eighth inning and Casey Stengel brining in a starter, Roger Craig to get the final out in the ninth. I also saw on television when Marv Thronberry missed touching first base after hitting what we thought was a two run triple.

    I was also there to see Jerry Koozman get out of a base loaded nobody out jam in the first inning against the Giants in 1968 when we won our first ever opening day contest. I also was at the season opener the following year when the joke going through the stands was “sh*t, we can’t even beat an expansion club”.

    I did see when kids with limited major league experience believed in themselves and stunned the world in 1969 so I know it can be done. Despite the 1968 team finishing a half game out of the cellar (tenth place!) and 16 games below .500 (when flirting within three games of that mark by late June) we saw the development of great young pitching, of a team coming together, of a team that was building confidence in itself and learning, of a team with a winning attitude despite the second half collapse. We knew the team was building itself up for better days. That is not the same situation today.

    But I also know Tom Seaver felt frustrated about the direction the team was going in the mid-seventies, with ownership not making moves to improve itself during the start of free agency and multi-year contracts – and that the Franchise himself was debating about demanding a trade quite a few times before that Midnight Massacre. He knew what players were on the club and what things could be done at that level without having to wait for the kids in the minors.

    In addition, I have all my original yearbooks from 1962 through the late seventies, rain checks from those early days at Shea, many an original Topps baseball card from the same era and lots of audio broadcasts on CD from the Miley Collection.

    I will also be one of many speaking about the early years of the Mets at the special 50th anniversary program at Hofstra the end of this month.

    So you can see, I know my Met history quite well.
    • Mark April 2, 2012 at 4:22 pm

      Thank you for the reply. There is no doubt in my mind that the Mets could have been a lot more competitive position this season if things had been handled differently over the past couple of years. As great of a reputation Sandy Alderson has a GM I don’t think he is very adept at drafting players or building bullpens. I thought the D.J. Carrasco signing was a bad one from the outset. I don’t think we will ever truly know the innerworkings of the Mets. My guess is that if Minaya was told he could go overslot and had ownerships backing he would have. I think that ownership wanted to be good little soldiers and follow Bud Selig’s draft directives and now with the new cba it is going to be very difficult to build a team from the draft and international signings due to budgetary penalties. I do think the Mets as a general rule get undervalued and other teams in the NL East get overvalued. If Duda can play the outfield the Mets may have a very good middle of the order bat. Ike Davis should have a great career at first. David Wright for as much as he is bashed should revert to all star form now that he doesn’t have Chip Hale telling him to play ball to his side. Personally I think Wright’s problem is he is too coachable and buys into the team philosophy for that year instead of doing what has worked for him in the past. I would have liked the Mets to have resigned Jose Reyes. I just think Reyes brings more to the team than stats and the Mets will miss him. I think a team with Reyes at short and Tejada at second would not have had to worry about the middle infield for the next five years. I personally believe in pitching and defense which is why I am not in love with the idea of sacrificing defense at second and right for the short term. The reality I believe is that Reyes was a casualty of the Madoff mess. I think the Mets needed to show as part of their pr campaign that they were significantly negatively impacted by the Madoff scandel and they decided to sacrifice Jose Reyes to make the point. With that said, while the Mets don’t have a lot of marquis named players they do have some very good core players and the starting pitching staff is significantly underrated. I think the Marlins are probably the team to beat as long as they don’t implode. What I don’t get is the same people that rip the Mets are saying the Cardinals are still a playoff team and I think when you factor in age the Mets have a much higher upside even this year than the Cardinals. Their three big hitters are Berkman, Beltran and Holliday. I’d take Davis, Duda, and Wright over them any day of the week and i think with a healthy Santana back and with questions in Cards rotation I’d take Mets rotation over Cards as well.
      • Joey D. April 2, 2012 at 4:46 pm

        Hi Marc,

        We’ll have to first see if David can bounce back and if Duda doesn’t suffer the sophmore jinx.

        As mentioned in other posts, I feel the financial problem goes way beyond the Madoff suit and that it has only stopped the bleeding for the Mets would not have needed to get two loans to meet operating expenses if funds were available through other sources within Sterling Equities. Long before they let Jose walk they were cutting expenses far beyond the payroll (and they stopped going for big contracts other than Bay after December, 2008 when the Madoff scandal hit – they had already made the commitment for KRod by that time).

        Too many pieces that remain unsolved money wise.

        Thanks for getting back

        Joe
        • Mark April 2, 2012 at 8:47 pm

          Joey,

          Don’t be confused by what you have read about the Mets finances. As an attorney, it is my educated guess, and it just that, a guess, that the Mets made their financial situation appear more bleak than it actually is in order to be more sympathetic to a jury if the suit came to that. Baseball owners have always been notorious for not being straight about their profits and you think now all of a sudden the Mets were being straight with everyone that they were losing all that money? I don’t buy it for a minute. Now what I do think was happening was that the Mets were being extremely cautious to not comingle their own funds with the Mets. As you probably know that is not normal for a franchise so the case had a significant impact on the Mets day to day operations even if they said it did not. The Wilpon’s/Katz tandem made their millions in real estate so do you really think that they would have set up things like they did if they didn’t have a good reason for doing so? The tell tale sign as to whether everything is getting back to normal is whether they extend Wright. Isn’t it a little odd that it seems the Mets are talking to contract extensions with others like Niese and Dickey but not Wright?
          • t agee April 2, 2012 at 9:19 pm

            I always wondered if they were devaluing the Franchise and swamping it with debt before the trial too Mark. We’ll never know.

            I think we do have a clue with the Mets speaking to Niece and not Wright. I think that says a lot. Of course it is 30 M compared to 80 M and I’ll bet Wright had the same thought.

            Still and all Wright’s deal would be from 31-35 bare minimum. That age group hasn’t done us many favors.
• FL Met Fan Rich April 2, 2012 at 8:00 am

  Your right!…They are worse!…..They can only beat a split squad. Astro team!
• GW April 2, 2012 at 8:53 am

  It’s sad that we have to admit defeat already. But honest.
• Joey D. April 2, 2012 at 10:40 am

  HI Guys,

  Will try to answer all counter-points as best as I can…, or can’t LOL.

  I agree – the Mets were not able to go to the Madoff “piggy bank” to get the cash for those loans. And that’s my point – the Wilpons routinely went to their other internal sources of cash (i.e., the “well) that were outside the Mets “official” financial books and then the money was not there within the Sterling Equities empire.

  Remember, the Madoff dividinds stopped in December of 2008. The first loan wasn’t taken until two years later. The KRod signing was made before the Madoff announcement. After that, they stopped going after big money players (other than Bay). We suddenly went after Mike Jacobs to fill a hole at first and Gary Matthews, Jr. to fill one at center. And Matthews’ salary wasn’t even being paid by us.

  Those are signs that the “well” with the financial reserves was beginning to dry up already, a perilous situation for the parent company as a whole. It became critical when hey didn’t have enough cash reserve in any of their holdings to meet operating expenses not once but twice. Thus the steps that the Wilpons took went beyond just cutting fat and why I believe the out of court settlement simply stopped some of the bleeding.

  Otherwise, they simply perceived Jose and the other free agents that could have helped the team were just fat that could be trimmed off.

  Yes, I do believe this team has enough core players that with the additions of two or three more pieces they would be up there in the predictions, not down. Didn’t say Beltran was one of them but was noting that the replacement was a fourth outfielder and a big step downward. That’s why I contended had they kept Beltran and KRod (and didn’t suffer the injuries in August) they would have continued playing winning baseball and finished the year with a winning record and momentum for the following season. But instead they became a joke the last two months of last year.

  And this year they are even a bigger joke because they only sought to strengthen the bullpen somewhat which was good – but too little (especially if Rauch was considered as one of the big arms). Not to mention they didn’t attempt to re-sign their all-star shortstop who’s glove, range and throwing arm are non-pararell.

  Regarding Minya and Beltran, I have no idea – was just raising a hypothetical question. Either way, it seems holding off the operation for a little while longer was just another measure the Mets took so not to give perspective season ticket holder second thoughts (like with trying to get them signed sooner before Jose opted out, not wanting Johann last season to say his situation was way worse than being let on (remember Sandy saying how many of us might be surprised as to how quickly Johann was pitching again?)

  And bottom line is, a team with the talent we had – and still do – does not need to get marginal players to tide us over for a few years to the new talent is ready. They could have sought after decent players and been competitive now will taking the proper steps to assure we could remain so in the future.
• Joey D. April 3, 2012 at 11:51 am

  Hi Mark,

  That was a GREAT perspective coming from a lawyer’s point of view. So I guess the notion of the Mets losing money could have been used as a smoke screen – as part of the entire financial structure of Sterling Equities suffering tremendous financial losses as well- to sway the jury. And I just thought it was because they got themselves in a financial hole due to the loss of that half-billion, the drying up of those returns they counted upon when they put themselves in debt, bad real estate investments and expanding their reach beyond their grasp.

  That’s why I was contending that $70 million loss was being used as a smoke screen to hide the extent of the Wilpon’s overall financial troubles, which was bad that it began drastically to affect the Mets as an organization itself – drastic since the Mets are so much a source of revenue via SNY and marketing that to do so would be like cutting off one’s nose to spite it’s face.

  But as a rouse to defend itself against possible litigation – that was something that even fooled me.

  And it does explain why we dumped Krod, Beltran and the entire 2011 season for Zach Wheeler and why we had something special going and were still undermined by the front office.

  Anybody who is a Met fan would demand a refund on their tickets being taken for such fools.

  And honestly, I was contending considered them broke – not with SNY. Not having the wealth they thought they would garner, yes, but not something where they had to give up the helicopters.
  • trs86 April 3, 2012 at 12:05 pm

    ” why we had something special going” Something special? Really?
    • Joey D. April 3, 2012 at 12:46 pm

      TR,

      If you can say we didn’t have something special going before those players were sent off packing, that between that 5-14 start and around the all-star break that we didn’t play heads-up and exciting baseball, having the confidence never to give up, to be aggressive, not beating ourselves, coming through in the clutch, climbing to within five games in the loss column for the wildcard, having us fans talking about the Mets with pride again, seeing that the players were so pumped up that they would get to the ball park at 1:00 PM for a 7:10 night game to the chagrin of Keith Hernandez – then you’re right we had nothing special going
      • trs86 April 3, 2012 at 12:58 pm

        Sorry Joey but a .500 team that is behind about 6 teams in the hunt for a wild card is not something special to me.
• Joey D. April 3, 2012 at 1:17 pm

  TR,

  That a team chosen to be the laughing stock of the league was playing great and exciting ball and could have finished up with a very respectable winning record though not in the playoffs – that isn’t exciting? To see the likes of Murphy, Duda, Thole, Turner, Gee, Neise, Parnell getting pumped up by playing a winning brand of baseball – that isn’t something special? To see this team growing and coming together, building up a momentum for even better times ahead going into this season from a team that came out from nowhere to get even that close in the wild card isn’t something special?

  That they were doing all this until their best hitter and ace closer were sent packing – yes, that was when 2011 stopped being exciting or something special – not before.

  No Met fan I know wasn’t pumped up about the team in late June and early July – so does that mean you were the exception? Hope not.

  Joe