21
2012
The Nieuwenhuis and Edmonds Comparison
An article by 
Thoughts from Joe D. – I wanted to revisit this post Pete wrote a week ago because I believe the conversation has gained some relevancy now. Since the day Pete made the comparison to Jim Edmonds, I’m seeing that defensive comparison popping up in many circles in the last 48 hours.
What Pete said about not needing to have speed as a primary attribute to play a great center field, has been on full display in the dynamic outfield play exhibited by Kirk Nieuwenhuis.
Kirk will never invoke memories of Carlos Beltran effortlessly gliding to balls that most center fielders don’t get to, but I do see that reckless abandon style that was such a big part of Jim Edmonds’ game. He runs great routes, gets some amazing jumps, and uses his body in an all-out attempt to get to the ball and make the play. I haven’t seen such exciting play in center field in some time.
Now if only Nieuwenhuis can end up evolving into the hitter that Edmonds was….
Still to early for that kind of talk, but time will tell….
Original Post 4/15
The big question regarding Kirk Nieuwenhuis is, “Is he the Mets center-fielder of the future?” The skeptics would say no, that he doesn’t possess the pure blazing speed required to play the position in the major leagues. But is it necessary to be a “burner” to play CF effectively?
Although having plus speed definitely helps to make up for mistakes, it is not a requirement to play center. The key is to limit your mistakes, and a smart player like Captain Kirk can do that. By doing three things consistently on defense, an outfielder can be successful playing center field, regardless of speed.
1st) Positioning. The player must work in conjunction with his outfield coach, and the game-plan of the pitcher and catcher in attacking each hitter, to see that he is positioned in the highest percentage spot to defend.
2nd) Reaction Time. What kind of jumps does the outfielder typically get when the ball first leaves the bat. The quicker the player reacts, and the better he is at instinctively moving in the right direction with his first step, the more effective he will be at tracking fly balls.
3rd) Routes taken to the ball. This is set up initially by number “two,” where the player takes that instinctive first step. Then his skill at geometry and tracking a ball in flight takes over as he selects the best and shortest route to where he determines the ball is going to come down. This selection process takes less than half-a-second, and can be improved through practice and experience.
There are startling similarities between the Captain, and an 8-time Gold Glove Award
winner in CF, by the name of Jim Edmonds. First, they are both left-handed hitters with considerable pop. Second, they both strike (struck) out a lot. Edmonds is listed at 6’1″, 190 lbs. Kirk at 6’3″ 215 lbs. Neither player is (or was) considered very fast, but despite this Edmonds played until he was 40, and was effective in CF until he was 37.
I don’t know about you, but if Captain Kirk can master the CF position in much the same way that Jim Edmonds did for so many years, I would sign up for that right now. I know the Mets are looking at Nimmo, and den Dekker, and Ceciliani, and even Valdespin as possible center fielders of the future for the Mets, but the real future in CF may be now.
About the Author: Peter Shapiro
The first time I went to Shea was not for a Mets game, it was for the Beatles concert there in August of '66. My first Met game was '67, a guy named Salty Parker was the interim-manager then. My first pennant race was 1969. As a 12 year-old that summer and fall, I managed to get to the park for 3 games. The first was the beginning of the Miracle which actually started on Tuesday July 8, 1969 with a day game against the Cubs. I was there a lot in '73. I saw games 3 & 5 of the 1973 NL Playoffs against the "Big Red Machine", from the upper deck behind home plate. It was from there that I witnessed the fight between Bud Harrelson and Pete Rose, and the mayhem that ensued. And that sweet victory in game 5! I saw a couple of WS games at Shea that year against that legendary Oakland A's club. I was there in 1985 for every single game Dr. K pitched including his two 16 strikeout performances, and the day he one-hit the Cubs on an infield single and the Mets won 1-0. I loved being a Met fan in those days. Hopefully we are once again preparing to emerge from the darkness.
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I agree with you Pete. I think if Kirk is the center-fielder of the future, he needs to have the three consistencies that you listed.
Just to add to that, I think Kirk needs to atleast hit abit better. I read from reports on him that he sometimes strikes out alot. If he can atleast put the ball in play and decrease the amount of strikeouts, he’ll be a good hitter.
Whoa horsey. I hate attaching names to players but you do realize you just compared him to a guy who could be a future HOF? 398 HR, an OPS over .900, 8 gold gloves, in CF?
I was just going to say “that’s a leap” to the comparison. And then I looked at all the attached picks, and everyone is leaping. So maybe subconsciously the author was making the same judgment to his own post.
I’m not saying what you think I’m saying, I am only pointing out some similarities between the two players. If you think I am trying to say that Kirk will have the same career as Edmonds then whoa horsey yourself. You are the one making the leap, not me.
Not at all, I am just saying it’s most likely not a very good comparison. Don’t you think that David DeJesus might be better? Still LH and managed some pretty decent years in CF which might not have been his best position. Maybe a LH Marlon Byrd? Randy Winn?
So he’s not allowed to make HIS prediction??? gotta be WHAT YOU WANT??? i thought you were against telling others what to do….
“Not at all, I am just saying it’s most likely not a very good comparison.”
If that’s what you get from it….
As i remember, edmonds was a late rounder who was never touted high on BA’s list, yet he thrived and became one of the best CF i’ve ever seen.. Good thing about baseball is that noone can predict heart and willingess to succeed despite BA not thinking highly of you.. Good for you pete to compare him with edmonds.. He may end up being better, who knows!
I have seen nothing about Kirk that would suggest he can not be a very good CF.
He will have some growing pains as do all Rookies in the MLB.
Positioning is as much about learing the tendencies of the batter as much as anything else.
Getting a good jump comes with the experience of playing in the varying parks and recognizing how the ball looks off the bat in each and what weather conditions exist for each field.
That said it is far more likely that Kirk will move to LF whenever they are done with Bay and they will look elsewhere for their eventual CF.
Don’t you think it would be more likely that he moves to RF with Duda moving over to LF?
It depends on two factors….
1 – Who has the stronger arm will likely be the RFer…
2 – Do you really want to put two guys at new positions and start the learning all over again?
By the time bay is done (granted if he hits 15 more HRs between now and July maybe it’s soon) Duda will be well accustomed to RF and it might not be such a good thing to mess with that and throw him to the other side.
Kirk seems to have all the tools – it will just be up to him to prove he can do it in the majors, like everyone else. We will know more about his bat once the pitchers learn more about him. As far as his fielding, he looks as if he gets a good jump on the ball and if he’s intelligent enough to follow the directions of his coaches and teammates before he gets to better know batters, pitchers and situations he will be fine.
But is it necessary to be a “burner” to play CF effectively?
No it’s not and as you pointed out Edmonds wasn’t a burner but was one of the best defenders I’ve seen in CF. Getting a great jump on balls and taking good routes is what made Edmonds so good. If Kirk can emulate that, he’ll be fine.
Kirk does not have the flair of Edmonds. He reminds me more of Rick Monday body and speed
I haven’t seen enough of Kirk to say for sure, but you don’t need speed to be good, or better yet…speed doesn’t mean that you will be good.
Look at Beltran and Cameron…neither guy I’d consider as “speed” guys, but neither guy was “slow footed”, but I don’t think Kirk is considered “slow footed”
But both guys (Beltran and Cameron) were great because they played smart and played hard and knew what to do and when to do it.
Look at one of the most physically gifted players the Mets have had in Angel Pagan. He was fast and very strong. (Not to be weird, but look at the guys legs, they were huge) despite all of Pagans gifts, he was very inconsistent as a fielder. He looked great two years ago, but last year and three years ago he was just plain awful. He took bad paths to the ball, he ran back when he should have been running in or in instead of back..he made terrible throws to the wrong base and over threw the cutoff man and missed his target by 15ft.
I completely agree about Beltran and Cameron. I’ve heard a few people say that is why Beltran was under appreciated here. It seemed like he rarely if ever went diving for a ball. What some people will tell you is a lack of heart or “grit” knowledgeable people will tell is an abundance of ability. He did a great job following the ball off the bat, took the proper routes to each ball, and positioned himself perfectly. All that added to his physical talents made it unnecessary to fling himself about. He made so many hard plays look easy.
The comparison to Edmondsis a bit of a stretch right now. We don’t know how much better Kirk will get with his reaction time, positioning, and routes. We know that he has the potential, but he is a long way from being worthy of a Jim Edmonds comparison at this point.
Yes, pagan as athletically-gifted as they come, but not a tremendous fielder. For the mets right now, I see Duda as a way bigger OF liability than Kirk N. The little bit I have seen…KN has something close to natural OF instincts, and Duda–not too much.
No one has mentioned this but doesn’t the Cap’n have a strong arm to boot?
the only knock I recall ever hearing on Kirk sticking in CF had to do with speed. He was considered a good CF otherwise (and I think he has shown enough speed/range to do the job).
hey, way better than bay, right?
the Edmonds comparison does not bother me. 1st, it had nothing to do with batting. Simply just that they are similar build guys that aren’t considered to be truly fast. So it is a model for Kirk to follow to an extent.
I happen to think we struck gold with Kirk. I don’t think Torres is getting his job back if and when he ever comes back. I know it’s early but I see good things in Kirk’s future.
I don’t believe the comparison was so much on the career Kirk will have, but more so on the physical abilities, size, speed, etc. Kirk can play CF, I’d prefer to see him in LF but he can for sure stick in Center
This is a NO BRAINER. Kirk, whom I have heard Duda call Butch, can play CF. We need not do comparisons but that is what media is and it makes sense. Butch has the tools. The problem for the Mets is Ron Darlings dreaded “station to station”play. We are so conditioned to the Reyes game that we have a need to envision Torres has our answer to swiping bases. This gets replaced easily by the doubles game and Ruben is leading the league in them. Torres is great for a spot starter and defensive replacement to stay healthy and help to get wins all season long. Butch needs as many at bats as possible. I have not heard about Butch’s arm but I have seen Hairston throw. Forget the platoon effective now.
Duda and Butch are projects that can learn and get better at the pro level. Nimmo, den Dekker, Ceciliani, and Valdespin all have great promise. They also keep us in prospects and will be up in a few years. It may be time to give Ceciliani a shot much like Butch. Time will tell. A healthy young Butch with a leader like Bay is a magical thing. He has the tools and does not lack the speed to be a CF. He has a significant jump and will not be free of a few bumps like missing signals, taking a wrong route, and throwing to the wrong base. This day and age who doesn’t. Joe Dimaggio would certainly bring about more flak than any Edmonds comparisons. They are not necessary. Keep Butch! Send down Baxter. I know the homegrown thing and the sentimental value thing but it is inevitable. He is the odd man out in the equation when and if Torres returns.
Of course, I am assuming that Kirk does NOT use steroids, whereas I always assumed the Edmonds 9just look at the size of the guy) did.
I don’t remember ever seeing Edmonds muff a pop up like Kirk did today. What a difference a day makes.
There seem to be some serious sun concerns playing center at Citifield. Too bad they cannot rotate the stadium for different times of year. But seriously, I like the way butch plays center. Torres took an Angel Pagan angle on that ball he blew out his calf on opening day.
Beltran and Cameron had GREAT speed. Edmunds ran extremely well….Neuwenheuis runs very well.
Any comparison to Edmunds is purely Euphoria aided at this point. Technically…talent wise…defensive production—-Edmunds was a startlingly great defensive Centerfielder. Post Willie Mays, he has few peers as a Ball Hawk( Paul Blair, Gary Maddox). He was a very good thrower. He navigated warning tracks and elevated to outfield walls with few peers (Young Griffy Junior and Adam Jones).
Throw in the almost 400 homers…….. at least wait 20 games until you compare Kirk with Edmunds!!!!