1
2012
Ramblings About Success And Some Reminiscing
An article by Former Writers
Every team has to have a number of components in order to brew a culture of winning and unity that is found in most legitimate contenders. The token ace, power bat, golden glove, and bullpen leader are a given, but just because you follow the directions of a paint by numbers doesn’t mean it will be a masterpiece. Realistically there are more cogs in the machine than we could imagine and it takes a perfect storm to mold a successful season. Calm down I am not attempting to rationalize that the Metropolitans are floating about while the puzzle pieces are falling together. However the club is capable of taking legitimate steps forward, or at least making an effort to rebuild a culture that has been M.I.A. for many moons.
The fact of the matter is, Jose Reyes was the superstar who possessed all the ideal points of a lovable glue guy (noun: middle of the pack talent who has the ability to electrify the crowd with a solid showing; player who goes above and beyond his expected effort output; gamer who develops a touch of extra personality in order to hold on to some semblance of excitement or because he likes having a dirty uniform). It was a beautiful thing to witness a legitimate franchise player hold onto his child-like love for the game, but Jose’s departure leaves a massive hole in the personality of this franchise. Personally, I don’t see a David Wright or an elderly Johan Santana hopping around the dugout and hyping everyone up.
Yes, this is a rebuilding year for the Mets. Yes, they will probably embarrass themselves. However there are a number of young guys like Ike Davis, Daniel Murphy, Ruben Tejada, and Lucas Duda who will likely be around after the Mets’ makeover. I wouldn’t be upset if Justin Turner or even a Bobby Parnell made it through the scourge. Granted it is important to focus on improving their game, but heading into this season I want to see them mesh and get a little goofy. Notice I didn’t even mention Wheeler, Harvey, or Familia? I only hear great things and I am excited to see how they perform when they get the call up, but that conversation is for another day. The point I am trying to get across is that I truly believe the birth of this new culture must be the first step in the rebuilding campaign. Try and personify the current organization, management and players, as soon to be parents baby-proofing the house, setting up the crib, hanging up some colorful wallpaper, and buying stuffed animals in bulk. The baby can’t appreciate it at the moment but when the time finally comes to give birth (moves have been made, poor contracts are expired, etc) the child will walk into the perfect setting. I don’t want to see these three pitching prospects finally make it to the big show only to see a depressed and hopeless squad with no real excitement.
In a perfect world the current roster can somehow breed a sense of unity and smoothness regardless of their record. David Wright looks like a swell guy when he whips out that smile but I would kill to watch Duda and Tejada grabbing at each other as they try to will a warning tracker out of the park. More importantly who will be the official creator of handshakes?!?! Call me immature or crazy but I crave genuine camaraderie and I truly believe these young “glue guys” need to get a bit more glue in their system.
Who knows? The only thing for certain is that we simply don’t know which rung of the NL East totem pole will be inhabited by the Metsies. The debate continues whether or not the stars will align or if the Mets will lay claim to last place from day one, but it will certainly be interesting to see how those on the roster will react to the state of affairs. In the meantime, let’s look at a couple guys we grew to love/hate in no particular order, and check in on where they are now.
Oliver Perez – I don’t really know how to start explaining my love affair with Ollie. On paper he was an absolute bum who rarely even sniffed his own potential while with the Mets. On the other hand, I know that the crowd developed an uncanny sense of impending greatness the few times he really brought his “stuff” to the mound. Ollie haters can go ahead and claim that it was just the reaction of absolute shock that the stiff finally pulled it together. Perhaps I am biased since I proudly rocked a sombrero as a member of Ollie’s Tamales whenever I could attend one of his starts, but deep down we all know that high leg kick just seemed to charge the stadium up. Plus, those studly sideburns certainly didn’t hurt the cause. Sadly enough, even I can only reminisce about the good Ollie so much before questioning my own sanity. Terrible contract, even worse performance, but what happened after we all turned our backs on Mr. Perez? After the Mets released Perez in March of 2011 he was assigned to a minor league deal by the Washington Nationals. Unfortunately it took another relegation to Double A before Ollie was able to put of respectable numbers. Alas, the Nats were still not impressed and eventually released my main man. The saga of Ollie still has a heartbeat as he just recently received an invitation to spring training in the big show with the Mariners, although he didn’t make the opening day roster.
John Maine – Johny Maine was basically a one and a half pitch wonder who managed to kill it while healthy in his first couple season with the Mets from 2006-2007. Unfortunately we were forced to witness a gradual and constant decline in numbers and physical deterioration. Dan Warthen was quoted as saying that Maine had a habit of lying about his health, and became a free agent after missing most of the 2010 season following shoulder surgery. Next stop was Colorado, but a change of scenery did not improve the situation as he only pitched 45 innings and posted a 7.43 ERA in Triple-A. Retirement suddenly became an option, but Maine’s career is currently back on life support after signing a minor league contract a month ago. Realistically you have to be pessimistic about his career and it doesn’t like we will see John Maine command the mound ever again.
Endy Chavez – The man, the myth, the legend. Endy will forever hold a special place in my heart after “the catch” in 2006 and another temporary season saving grab in the last regular season game in 2008. He was a fan favorite during his three years with the Mets and a real quality defensive replacement. Good times were had, but Endy was eventually traded to Seattle where he tore the ACL in his right knee while colliding with Yuniesky Betancourt. After free-agency, the next stop was Texas where he hit a very solid .301 in 256 at bats last season. The 34 year old lefty still has some juice in the tank, and is expected to platoon in left field for the Baltimore Orioles this upcoming season.
Jeff Francoeur – You either love or you hate Frenchy. The Braves gave up on the former first round pick after an unacceptably long slump, and the Mets got their hands on the streaky outfielder with a cannon for an arm in exchange for Ryan Church. He had a decent single season for the Met but also famously hit into a game-ending unassisted triple play. Francoeur was benched the next season to make room for Carlos Beltran and traded to the Rangers for an irrelevant Joaquín Árias. In the end, he signed a one-year deal with the Royals, joined the 20 20 club for the first time in 2011, and then signed a hefty two-year $13.5 million dollar extension. Personally, I enjoyed watching Frenchy play in 2009 and that trademark grin makes it obvious he absolutely loves the game.
Ramon Castro – If I were a betting man I would say Ramon came out of the womb with the jowls of a bulldog. He was a lovable guy throughout his four and a half years with the Mets, and had a fairly reliable bat for a backup catcher behind the likes of Mike Piazza, Paul Lo Duca, and Brian Schneider. Fans were always hoping Castro would be given the reigns whenever the starting job opened up but he was never really given a shot. After the Mets he ended up with the White Sox. His claim to fame is catching Mark Buehrle’s perfect game in July of 2009. It was the first time he caught for Buehrle, who claimed that he didn’t shake off Castro a single time during the game. The guy is 35 and technically the third string catcher but Castro fans will probably get a couple more sightings as he should be healthy heading into spring training.
Lastings Milledge – The kid made his major league debut for the Mets at 21 years and 55 days old in, the same exact age of the great Darryl Strawberry, in 2006. He didn’t do anything too impressive until hitting his first career knocker against San Fran closer Armando Benitez in the bottom of the tenth inning to tie the game up at six a piece. Usually you love seeing a youngin’ get excited about making a huge hit, but the media and his teammates were pretty darn pissed when he gave fans a high five as he returned to the field to play some defense. The next year Milledge found himself shuffling in between the majors and AAA, was chastised for appearing in a rap video with some wrist-slap worthy language, and was subsequently traded to the Nationals for Ryan Church and Brian Schneider. To make a long story short, Lastings spent the next three seasons constantly recovering from injuries while putting up mediocre numbers for the Nationals and Pirates. Unfortunately it looked like the saga of this once promising Metsie was winding down after Pittsburgh chose not to offer him a new contract. The bad news continued as he barely even sniffed the big show after being signed to a minor league contract by the White Sox in 2011. You have to give the guy credit though as he recently signed a one year contract with the Tokyo Yakult Swallows. Clearly the hype wasn’t warranted but I simply can’t root against my ex-Mets. Go Swallows baby!
Whew. It’s always nice to reminisce, but this sad group of gentlemen didn’t fair very well after leaving Queens, considering Frenchy is really the only guy who is doing more than simply chugging along. Hope you guys enjoyed it and if there is a demand I’d be more than happy to put together another recap of ex-Mets and where the road has taken them…Carlos Gomez, Alex Cora, Pedro Feliciano, Xavier Nady pop into mind. I’m new to the twitter game so hit me up @HisDudenessOfNY with any requests or if you just want to tell me how much I suck/rock.
Always a pleasure MMO nation. Until next time..
About the Author: Former Writers
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You made a very interesting point regarding the camaraderie that may be lost now that Reyes is gone…
You sometimes need a player to be the clown to keep the spirits of the lockeroom up during the drudgery of a long season, most especially a long losing streak!
The 73′s had Tug McGraw
86ers had Roger McDowel
Pedro Martinez is the player who added life to the 2005 and 2006 teams and
Reyes was a big help there too and continued until this year.
What some percieve as immaturity from Reyes may be bad if your entire team is immature, but having one player who has a childlike and jubilant attitude is a big part of team chemistry and amity in the lockeroom and it stops those who may be TOO serious from bringing the rest of the players down!
Now as to your ending, I can’t say I pine for any of those guys but I will say that I blame Warthen as much as I blame Perez and Maine for their ultimate decline and it would be interesting to see what a real Pitching Guru could have done for them if he got to them in time.
Too late now they have their bad habits ingrained and are likely not to budge but I wonder what might have happened had they had a good PC to stop the decline and get them on track…
Water under the bridge so to speak now!
I really do wonder what the draw of Warthen is considering he is the sole survivor.
the Pitchers like him thats why he is still here!
And why some of his fans on the staff should NOT still be here!
Pelfrey likes him because he doesn’t WANT to think!
Dickey Likes him because Dickey needs no coaching and Warthen leaves him alone!
Santana probably has no opinion because he doesn’t need Warthen either…
And Niese and Gee did not politic for his staying they just didn’t trash the guy when it came time to decide. I’m sure they LIKE the guy but what they like is less important than what he does and if the FO likes the results he is getting from my perspective!
That didn’t help Hojo. Players liked him too.
Sometimes the sum of a team’s parts is greater than any individual. A good example of that is the 1999-2000 Mets. As soon as a lot of those guys were gone they didn’t amount to much or their careers dissipated – (Reed, Yoshii, Payton (to a degree), Agbayani, Dennis Cook, Wendell, Hamilton, Pratt (although he had some decent years w/Phillies he was more of a contributor w/Mets
You are right, some teams gel and some teams get hot at the right time and some teams get lucky. It’s all a part of it. The Dbacks get to prove which one they were as the Padres got that chance last year.
All of those guys played their best as Mets. They were a pretty good supporting cast to Piazza, Alfonzo, Olerud and Ventura.
yeah i know about the supporting cast and I had a feeling somebody might bring it up but what it wasn’t the point i was trying to make. There were a LOT of regular or journeyman or just-above-journeyman players that helped make that team successful..and in my opinion they happen to have the right mgr for that type of team too. But i’m well aware of the nucleus.
Who would have thought that the 97-2000 Mets had one of the best runs in Mets history and the Best run in the past 20 years.
USMF, even the 2001 team had a late run and were in the race in late September:
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2001-09-30/sports/18357112_1_fdny-nl-east-john-franco
You can bet the house if the present Front office were in charge of those Mets as well as the 1969 & 1973 there would have been no pennant runs and no World Series appearances those years because those teams would’ve been broken up before they had a chance to even make a run. Be prepared for that type of mentality with these guys around.
Actually it was those runs and the attempt to keep it going that is costing this team right now.
Part of the future was taken to address shortcomings on those teams that enabled them to make those runs.
Ventura, Zeile and Appier cost first round draft choices, Weathers, Floyd, Cedeno, and Glavine cost 2′s and 3′s.
Ventura was a great fit and did have a great ’99. Zeile was OK, Appier (4/22 M) a reach and exchanged for Vaughn. Weathers and Cedeno were salary dumps as Ventura and Zeile became. Floyd gave us a couple good years and Glavine was pretty good for his time here and got us Ike going forward but many of the recent and upcoming FA’s were actually selected around the picks we gave up for those guys and the guys we got for the most part didn’t last very long.
Younger players both on the 25 and the minors were exchanged as well to address shortcoming on the roster. Mora, Izzy, Bay, Cruz, Everett, and AJ Burnett.
As is usually the case the players obtained without a big cost in prospects or early round draft choices that pan out are a huge part of both winning now and continuing to win later. Guys like that include Alfonzo, Reed, Olerud, Payton, Agbayani, Ordonez, Yoshi, Timo, and Bobby Jones even if it’s just for a few years.
Those teams were also highly dependent on the good fortune of the Marlins not only taking themselves out of contention but also in providing us with a couple of our best players.
And don’t forget what happened to the ’86 Champions. They made another run at it in ’88, and after Scoscia hit that three-run bomb off of Doc, to knock them out of the playoffs that team was virtually blown up. After the ’86 win, WS MVP Ray Knight was immediately let go (bad kharma), AND they dumped one of their other third baseman, Kevin Mitchell, as well as Danny Heep. Then they traded away over the next three years, Raffy Santana, Rick Aguilera, Randy Myers, Roger McDowell, Bobby O, Mookie Wilson, Lenny Dykstra, Lee Mazzilli (again), Gary Carter, Keith Hernandez, and then Darryl Strawberry was allowed to walk. All gone by the end of the 1990 season. With a minor league system at the time utterly devoid of any talent, it was no wonder the dynasty of the mid 80′s could not sustain itself.
What dynasty? They won one World Series. But i’m not second guessing it, they had their chances after 86 and blew it so that’s that, but it wasn’t a dynasty.
And Petey don’t forget to mention the moves used to create that 86 Champion. I was reminded earlier today by Met Maniac – who follows the same drafts and minors but assesses them FAIRLY that Gary Carter was acquired for 5 prospects and cost the Mets their number one draft pick Herb Winningham, 3 prospects acquired for Ray Knight. Calvin Shiraldi traded for Bobby Ojeda and so on. So let’s not SECOND GUESS moves made to win almost 30 years ago. Jesus, I hate to think of what you guys would say now if Keith Hernandez didn’t get a hit in the 16th inning in Houston that same year and then the Mets lose to Mike Scott.
You guys would kills the organization for trading Mike Scott (some people still do, lol)
I know you think prospects is the end-all, be-all but you think taking a chance and moving those prospects in order to win isn’t gonna happen? You think the only solution is to just pay attention to home grown talent? How often does it happen?
I mean yes I was shocked that they let Knight go but the Mets had chances to win in without him afterwards too. You gotta MAKE TRADEs, take RISKS, sign Free Agents and every once in awhile you hit the jackpot and hopefully can field a team that has 2 or 3 homegrown stars that are major contributors.
The Knight, Carter and Ojeda trades are exactly the reason you build up your minors, so you can make a trade when the right piece is available.
Knight was a waiver wire deal in late August 1984 when we trailed Chicago by 4 games and Houston was 10 back. Houston got 3 guys, two of whom had careers. Gerald Young (5th round) and Manny Lee (IFA) and a former 3rd round pick of the Cubs who we had picked up (Mitch Cook.)
Without those prospects we don’t get Knight and perhaps Carter either since Cashen could very well (almost certainly) have been talking to Montreal and knew what Carter would cost (Hubie Brooks among others) Why else do you bring in a RH hitting 31 year old Knight when you have a perfectly good young 27 year old RH hitting third basemen already? What good would it do to fill one need at the expense of another one your already taken care of at?
Cater was traded for Brooks (1st rounder) Winningham (1st rounder) Youmans (2nd rounder) and Fitzgerald (6th rounder) All of them played in the Majors and wouldn’t have been able to be traded if we had given away those draft picks for a year and a half of David Weathers or Vince Coleman Kevin Appier or Jason Bay.
Bobby Ojeda was obtained for Calvin Schiraldi (1st round 27th pick, same as the one we gave up for a 40 year old LFer who lasted 100 games over 2 years) If Cashen had thrown that draft choice away we don’t GET Ojeda.
Notice a common theme here. These 3 important pieces of the 1986 Mets were acquired with 3 prospects (or current young players) drafted in the 1st round, another from the 2nd, one from the 3rd, another from the 5th and one from the 6th as well as an IFA and all but Cook did have careers in the Majors. That’s an important part of understanding the value of prospects in your farm. They have great trade value, unlike guys you give up draft picks to sign as FA’s because few can afford them and fewer still even want them. They also kill you with no trade clauses, vesting options and frequently bust at an even higher rate than first rounders do.
The last 20 years we’ve been turning a large percentage of our #1 and #2 draft choices into free agent busts and/or salary dumps or watching them play well for exceedingly short periods of time at the rate of almost one per year. Considering the fact that #1 and #2 picks are iffy to begin with is it any wonder we now find ourselves with no one to trade and four first basemen in the starting 8 and 5-10 glaring needs elsewhere on the 40 man roster?
In addition none of these deals were made until we had already won (or were closing in on) 90 wins. Other than Hernandez all the deals before this were FOR prospects.
Darling, Terrell and Sid.
Build up, then build out. As old as the game itself.
Nothing new about it at all but without the farm, can’t be done.
So I guess my question is this – what is the right time to trade draft picks and when is not the right time?
In my opinion there is no answer. You always try to win and sometimes you are going to have to take risks. I don’t want to hear it years later, after the games are played and after the late inning HR is given up, or the strike out with the bases loaded happens that the Mets..back then..should never haven made those moves. That’s BS and it’s second guessing.
Bayonne, I agree with almost everything you said, but I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make here. I was talking about how they dismantelled the ’86 team, not how they built the ’86 team. Cashen did an amazing job putting that championship team together, no question, and I hope to write a piece on that, as a follow-up to a piece I did in the upcoming 2012 Mets Annual, about building the ’69 Champions. What I wrote above I was lamenting how they tore that ’86 team apart, and so quickly, getting really no one in return for trading away all those players. I mean, Juan Samuel? Yeesh. You are right, I made a mistake by saying “dynasty” that’s not what I meant to say, I meant to say “dynasty that never was.” I did detect some kind of cheap shot there on your part though. Are you saying I am not portraying the Mets minor league system “fairly?” If that is the case, I would be very much interested to know what you are referring to.
If you are asking me when I would trade away prospects, well I agree with you there too. I have no problem trading away prospects to get the right player or players back. That is why I want the Mets to continue with the job they’ve started in rebuilding the farm system. But the problem with trading prospects is the same as trading a major leaguer. If you trade them when they are not doing well, and their value is low, you don’t get good value for them. If you trade them when they are lighting the world on fire, it’s harder to part with them. But don’t think for a second that I am so enamored with Mets prospects that I wouldn’t trade any away in the right deal. The only one’s I would be hesitant to trade right now are: Zack Wheeler, Matt Harvey, Brandon Nimmo, Phillip Evans, and Cesar Puello.
Bay, it’s too bad that we can’t have a good combination of a GM who can make trades, a GM who will sign star players and a GM who can use “advanced metrics” and run a cleaner front office.
I don’t by into “Sandy the Genius” mantra that some blindly follow. I don’t think his track record is good and I’ve not been impressed with too many of his moves. I do see him doing a necessary evil and focused only on getting the team back in the black. I give him a slight pass for the past two years, but I really need to see something from him next year. There should be no more excuses.
Omar made mistakes, but I don’t think he’ll get the credit for turning a horrible franchise around as quickly as he did and for the amount of talent he did get in barren farm system. Omar was willing to spend and get star players we needed, unfortunately, he was reckless on who he spent it on and everything back fired.
I hated Philips as a GM, I think a lot of his success was from players brought in before he was named GM and players forced on him by ownership. Phillips never wanted to sign a big player, he’d rather wait until he could trade for a guy once he hit his down trend. Sadly he failed as much as he succeeded and left the farm system completely empty when he was fired.
But why can’t we have a GM that is willing to trade from the system to fill roster spots while signing the key player to a big contract when needed while using advanced metrics to find the best value to fill out the roster while making the hard decisions to let a player go in favor of getting a better talent in the system?
USMF if they don’t attempt to sign a guy like Hamels or Cain next offseason if they haven’t resigned by then , I think even the pro Sandy extreemist will start to get on him. I don’t think there was any money the last 2 offseasons to spend on the big ticket items and there weren’t really a whole lot of big names available aside from our own guy, Reyes that made a lot of sense for our team but if we’re not in on some of the free agents next fall then there will be some backlash for these guys. Even from a tradiing standpoint, not too many other teams are knocking down our door for our prospects outside of Harvey, Wheeler, Familia or even an injured Mejia. Guys like Gorski, Valdespin, Lagares, Puello will have to follow up last years breakout seasons in order to get other teams interests up. Next offseason is a big one for this franchise.
I’d spend a #1 if I had to (probably be a #2) on Miguel Montero next off season if he can be had for 4 years 50 M, 5 years 60 M. No, no trade, no vesting options, full ability to offer arb ect.
That’s the only way we’ll ever have a catcher when Harvey, Familia, Mejia and Wheeler get up here. Sign Flores if he shows something and doesn’t cost a pick (shouldn’t) and use Thole as a LH pinch hitter, 3rd catcher or he could be a reasonable portion of a trade for one of the many organizations in need of a catcher.
That would turn a weakness into a strength and buy our farm a few years of development at that position unless Cordero or Pena show something this year or Groneur comes on offensively.
Even if one of them does he could serve as the primary backup.
If they gave up a #1 pick to sign Montero I would have no problem at all. He’s the best catcher in the NL right now. Catchers like Montero are tough to come by. He’d be well worth a number 1.
Yes on Cain, but I don’t want anything to do with Hamels (don’t care how good he is) unless it means we run the price up on him and waste more of Philly’s money.
Sadly, going over the list of FA’s, I don’t see much that excites me outside of Cain…Who knows what the needs will be next year? 2nd base? 3rd base? LF? CF? Catcher? (yes) Pitching? (always) Closer? (damn straight)
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/?page_id=177
What about Zack Greinke or Shaun Marcum?
As much as I hate Philly, I’d take Hamels in a heart beat. He’d be a great guy to have for the Harvey’s and Wheeler’s to learn from and would be a great anchor to a young staff. Marcum I’d sign but I wouldn’t give him Lee or Sabathia money. Grienke probably wants no part of NY with his social anxiety disorder.
Why would they break up a young up and coming team with a young insanely good pitching staff even if they fell short in 69? Or 73. No way they break up those teams. There were no aging members to that nucleous. The only thing that stopped those teams from dominating the NL for close to a decade was their inability to get good position players.
FAs walking at the end of their contract wasn’t an issue either back then.
Totally different situations for sure.
Why not? Look at what Billy Beans is doing in Oakland now. He’s trading good young pitching for even YOUNGER pitching and prospects. It makes no sense and i watched the MLBNetwork discuss that issue and they even said they don’t know what the hell is going on in Oakland – it’s the way those guys think. Sandy could not WAIT to rip the Mets apart last year.
So I disagree, The 1969 Mets are 9 1/2 out on August 13 – Sandy is blowing that team up in my opinion. Of course we BOTH will never know the answer, so to be safe – thank GOD a “Sandy-like” character was not in charge both years. I don’t want to even think what he could have done to those 2 teams – and especially 1973.
“You Gotta Be Sure” has replaced “You Gotta Believe”
Billy Beanes A’s are a totally different situation compared to the late 60′s, early 70′s Mets. 1) The Mets didn’t have financial troubles back then. They had an owner willing to spend on whatever it took. 2) That team was very young and had one of the best pitching staffs in baseball if not the best. 3) Salaries were not an issue back then. 4) Alderson is not a dumb man. He didn’t break up the A’s when they only played 500 in 1987, I can’t see him breaking up a team that has a young Seaver, Koosman, Ryan, Gentry, McGraw and later Matlack that was on the rise and could’ve been a dynasty had they been able to get some hitters in their prime. There was no free agency yet and their trades backfired. Ryan, Singleton and Otis, just to name a few.
The trade deadline in those days was June 15th. The Mets were 8.5 GB in ’69 with just one team to catch and only one other team in the NL East over .500 (Pitt 30-29)
No one would have been trading Koosman, Seaver, Gentry, McGraw or Ryan for any reason mid season 1969 and the idea that Alderson and Beane share the same circumstances, situations and brain is ridiculous.
Plus the team wasn’t really blown apart last year. They trade 2 guys. I wouldn’t consider that blowing the team apart. One guy had a crazy vesting option that if handled better by Collins wouldn’t have vested even if they kept him. Using him in games when they were trailing in the 8th inning on the road and getting credit for a game finished was not smart by Collins and he did it on a few occasions, along with having him close out 4-5 run leads in the 9th inning. Beltran is aging, has shaky knees and was leaving with no compensation anyway so I make that move everyday unless we’re actually in a pennant race then I would’ve kept him.
I am not sure where you are coming from. Sandy did not blow up the team. Beltran was about to walk, so instead of letting him walk for almost nothing (remember at that time the CBA was up in the air so compensation wasn’t defined), he got an absolute gem of a prospect. … much like the Angels got when Ryan was traded – not sure who it was, but I am sure it wasn’t Sandy.
K-Rod was just a financial burden that Sandy was extremely smart in seeing that the no-trade list wasn’t filed, so he saw his opportunity.
So do you think the 2012 team would be better with Beltran (if Sandy pulled an Omar and extended him) K-Rod (with $17mil salary)?
Do you think the 2015 Mets would be better with an aging Hurt Reyes making $22mil and no Wheeler?
You can dislike Sandy, but I personally don’t get the logic in your thinking.
I think Bayonne has an excellent point.
Excuse me if I’m wrong, Bayonne, but could you be thinking of the 1969 Mets playing in 2011 with Sandy as the G.M.? Being 9-1/2 games out, with the financial situation being what it is, would he try selling off veterans like Clendennon, Cardwell and Taylor – who by today’s standards would be making much millions – for young and promising prospects and the shredding of contractual olbligations, had the trade deadline been extended by maybe three weeks?
I think he would.
“I truly believe the birth of this new culture must be the first step in the rebuilding campaign.” – Matty, we disagree on this one. if it was just the possibility of the Madoff civil suit, why would the Wilpons be making such drastic cuts across the board at this time – and even moreso, why the need for two loans just to meet payroll and the hiring of a financial consulting agency if the financial crisis had yet to come?
Sell Clendenon? Are you kidding? The Mets got Clendenon while they were 9 games out! Sandy would’ve never acquired him in the first place!!
Even if it was June.
Know something, Bayonne?
I never even thought it through to that point since I never saw Sandy buying anything he couldn’t get at a flea market!
I can see him cutting Ed Charles also saying at 35, he was a .200 hitter holding up the development of Wayne Garrett. We all know Glider’s contributions to the Miracle Mets as the elder statesmen was invaluable to the kids who looked up to him in so many ways for leadership that could never be found in stats.
How much leadership can a 200 hitter show? Charles was dreadful in 69 and he was 2 for 15 in the World Series. That’s like saying Mario Mendoza could only hit 200 but you can’t measure what he brought to a club that can’t be measured in stats. Garrett hit about 218 so I guess Ed Charles did rub off on him. lol
Yeah I don’t know how Seaver, Koosman, Gentry, Ryan, McGraw, Shamsky, Agee, Jones or Grote could have ever made it in the bigs without Ed Charles showing them the way.
Fonzi,
Go through the newspaper account, article and book written at that time – or even better yet, find statements made by any player or coach from that 1969 squad to find out just how much Ed Charles meant to the team and how wrong you are on this.
I was a college freshman at the time and know as a fact that the players were vocally unicent about their depending upon Ed’s guidance, wisdom, calming hand and experience keeping them emotionally even keel and thus preventing the young club from not straying away from emotional highs and lows and staying in focus.
Being a young club with limited major league experience to a man they say how they could not have done it on the field without the glider being there to help them through the stress and pressure.. They also was Ed’s first and only shot to be on a championship club and so he took it upon himself to be a leader.
One other way to understand how much the Glider meant to the club was seen a year later. I was at the home opener welcoming back the world champions. The players were lined up along first base, each coming forward to receive his world series ring, being called up in alphabetical order. Suddenly, we heard the name Ed Charles over the P.A. system and out came from the dugout wearing a trench cut and running onto the field was Ed – the club wanted him there to get his ring.
On a veteran team, yes, he would not have been needed for such leadership and his .200 batting average would have been seen as detrimental but with a team that Tom Seaver said a few minutes after clinching the series was “just a bunch of young kids who love to play this game, someone like Ed was essential. Again, ask any player on that club and they will tell you Ed Charles was as valuable as any other player on the team.
So asking how a .200 hitter could provide leadership proves my point about how little is known about a team and the players by just looking at statistics. Overlooking that was a mistake on your part Fonzie, no disrespect intended.
Joe
They wouldn’t have, plain and simple.
Beltran was the chance to get something good for a guy who wasn’t going to resign with us and we didn’t have the money to resign him anyway.
Reyes got more than we could offer and K-Rod was just one more in a long long line of salary dumps we’ve specialized in for 2 decades now.
Thats a presumtion not a fact…You have no clue if Beltran would have resigned with us or not…
Only thing you can assume reasonably as that WE would not resign him which is why he got traded basically saying we don’t want first crack at getting you back.
And since they made no effort to do so all you can say is WE wopuldn’t sign him not that beltran would not!
How do we know the Mets didn’t know if he would re-sign? After the way they handled the injury and the press nightmares during those injuries, perhaps Beltran had already let it be known he wanted no part.
Well it’s equally a presumption to think that he would have resigned here and flies in the face of all available evidence to the contrary.
#1) The Met ownership went out of their way to embarrass him over the Walter Reed incident even while knowing he had a valid reason for not attending.
#2) The Met ownership went out of their way to embarrass him about him choosing to have surgery in 2010.
#3) the owner called himself a “schmuk” for having signed Beltran in the first place and said he did so based on one post season, somehow not realizing the contributions to the Team that Beltran did make or the fact that he fully lived up to his deal.
#4) He publically stated that he wanted to play for a team with a chance to win a ring and then signed with the defending World Champions.
There are 4 very good reasons why he wouldn’t have resigned with us, where are the good reasons he would have?
Right it’s presumtuous to ASSUME either way but then again my assesment of the Beltran trade doesn’t depend on assuming a thing!
I know a KNOWN All Star should be worth more than one promising MAYBE!
regardless of my chances of signing him!
The only way you can sell the Beltran trade is ASSUMING either you or he gave up on resigning and then getting SOMETHING anything for him was worth it.
You keep looking at Wheeler for Beltran but forget we paid beltran’s entire Salary too!
Should have gotten more in that deal even if it was just some minor kid who doesn’t project to be a prospect!
Lets put it in the proper context. It was the last two months of a proven All Star for the next 6-10 years of a promising maybe.
Let put it in it’s proper perspective why don’t we?
Maybe could also mean ZERO years doesn’t it?
I wasn’t suggesting you weren’t aware of the nucleous, just complimenting them for how well they supported that nucleous. That’s all, nothing more. Wasn’t a knock on what you were saying.
Reyes has life about him. Pedro too, that shouldn’t be considered irrelevant during the 162 in 182 marathon especially when it’s coming from your top players.
Maine and Perez were probably more about the medical staff and lack of depth than the pitching coach. Maine should have had his surgery mid season 2008 in order to give him time to fully rehab it by 2009 or left in Florida to join back up in June of 2009.
Perez jumpers knee most likely threw off anything he may have been able to contribute but the idea that he was coming into his own isn’t one that too many people in the business shared. No one else even made him an offer.
Peterson did get some big games out of both these guys but there is no reason to think that would have continued even if Duncan had been the pitching coach. Maine couldn’t have continued to live up in the zone with the inevitable decline in velocity and both of them walked way too many even when they were going well.
Personally Tag I think both Maine and Perez suffered from the fact that Warthen may know a thing or two about Pitching but KNOWING something does not a good teacher make!
It takes more than just knowing you have to know how to get it through to individuals and that if you ask me is the main failure of Warthen!
Sure he knows what needs to be done but if you can’t find a way to get the player to do what you think needs to be done or think about it the same way you do, all that knowledge is for nothing!
You Fail!
Metsie, Warthen did get a good year out of the staff in 2010 although who’s to know how much he had to do with that.
Maine was hurried and rushed back before fully rehabbing his shoulder, Perez was a hire wire act at his best and once he got hurt completely lost his velocity and what little command he had.
Pelfrey is really the biggest indictment of them all. His two moderately successful seasons fueled entirely on keeping the ball in the park. Basically the difference of throwing or escaping 6 more mistakes over the course of an entire season and no improvement from year to year. Now he’s settled in as a very mediocre durable starter highly dependent on the defense behind him and the result of a random dozen pitches or so. Very weird.
Personally I thought Appadaca did the best job with what he had to work with, better even than Stottlemeyer or Rube Walker.
Well a lot of that has to dowith Dickey and Takahashi doesn’t it?
A knuckleballer really doesn’t rely on the PC since there is nothing the PC can really teach you about throwing it it’s one of those self taught and negotiated things that requires a good brain more than anything and coaching can’t make you smarter than you already are!
Jose does indeed have an air about him… he also has never shown any signs on being able to carry a team. In some regards he is like Beltran (but more personality), very good player, not the cornerstone of any team, and likely to have injury reduce the received value of any high priced contract.
And no player should have to carry a team…if he has to then the problem is the team not the signing of the player who can’t carry the other schlubs!
Nice article.
I always thought Maine’s main (no pun intended) was the health of his shoulder/arm. After he was first injured, it just seemed to never heal. Might be it just doesn’t have the overall health to continue pitching.
Miss Endy. Don’t miss Franceour.
I was one of the few Met fans that actually like the Perez re-signing. Couldn’t have been more wrong.
Reyes…..still wish he wasn’t gone but it is what it is.
I liked Perez and I didn’t want to lose him, but deep down I was really hoping that someone else signed him before we had the chance…I just had the feeling the the “GM Killer” tag people put o him would come true…sadly, it could be sad that signing Ollie did in fact lead to Omar getting fired.
People I don’t think see what a “shell game” Scott Boras played with Perez and Lowe with the Mets and Braves.
Boras knew that nobody was going to give Perez a big contract and the Mets really needed a solid SP and they much rather preferred Lowe over Ollie. So Boras played both teams and got Lowe to take a lesser deal with ATL knowing that the Mets would be backed into a corner and would be forced into signing Perez. I really wish Omar had the balls to walk away from that deal. *sigh*
but don’t feel bad, I really wanted to sign Bay and I though Holliday was overrated and would continue to suck away from Coors field.
Funny – that was my exact thinking about Bay/Holiday… I don’t know about you, but I am still holding out that one day I may be right. But don’t forget that Holiday has not really done too much for the Cards – and he cost the the playoffs against the Dodgers (granted that was after the trade but before the FA)
Hollidays has had decent success after signing in StL., but not worth the120mil contract he got.
I really think that Holliday may struggle now that he doesn’t have Pujols protecting him. But that guy really can’t play the OF at all…I remember him trying to chase fly balls around CityField after the deal was signed and seeing how much he sucked and thinking how glad I was that I didn’t have to watch that 81 games a year.
But I think that Duda could develop a Holliday type player…real good power (+20HR) with some average (+.290) but not much of a fielder. But I think Duda is already a better fielder than Holliday and Duda has a much better arm than Holliday ever had
I was one of those that really liked the Perez contract; maybe a couple million too high. But in comparison to what the Braves had given Lowe and the fact I thought having a kid would focus him, I thought it was going to be a great deal. When he was on, he was great – but he just lost his on switch i guess
Lowe had just come off 4 real good year with the Dodgers, didn’t walk anyone, threw 200 innings every year, had already fulfilled one big free agent deal, had won huge games in his career before, was a GB machine and got the same AAV, just one more year than Perez who hadn’t had even remotely close to the level of success that Lowe had.
Lowe may have been a bad choice for a poor defensive team like the Braves but he was a much better pitcher.
Even the Mets thought that Lowe was the better choice, but Boreas played the Mets and made sure that Lowe didn’t go to them.
That said, Lowe got a pretty bad contract from the Braves seeing how old he was at the time.
solid article. where in the world is rey ordonez though????
He’s hanging with Carmen Sandiego…
At the time I didn’t want the Mets to lose Perez but could appreciate how Bordas could have played Omar as a fool getting so high a deal – who was the competition for Ollie’s services and how much were they willing to offer? I think Omar, like the Wilpons, believed money was no object – he was getting all he wanted from the Wilpons and the Wilpons were getting that 16 percent annual return from Madoff on a half-billion dollar investment and had no inkling it was going to suddenly dry up.
Not unreasonable for either considering the factors at that time. But not prudent, either.
Solid article my man. Definitely agree with the fact that somebody needs to step up in terms of goofiness with Reyes gone…Pretty sure I miss Ramon Castro the most out of all those guys.