12
2012
No Ambulance Needed
An article by 
One of the more light-hearted moments during yesterday’s SNY broadcast of the Mets 4-0 loss to the Nationals, came right after starter Stephen Strasburg threw pitch number 100 during the game.
It was the first time Strasburg has hit the century mark in pitches thrown in his pro career with the Nats, said Gary Cohen. At which point SNY analyst Ron Darling blurted out, “no ambulance needed.”
Honestly, it was pretty hilarious, especially if you were in on the back story a couple of days earlier when Darling went into an on-air rampage against pitch counts during the game one Mets-Nats broadcast. I mean seriously, Darling was in full attack mode and as he was ripping how some of these young pitchers are being babied or “horses” as he put it, he was suddenly a top trending topic on Twitter. Here were a few of my favorites:
Anyhow, pitch counts… Darling said that all the babying and all the coddling in the world, didn’t prevent Stephen Strasburg from tearing ligaments in his elbow and having Tommy John Surgery. “Injuries just happen”, Darling said. “I look at these 225 pound young stallions being babied and pampered and I’m just so fed up with it.”
“Just let them pitch, they’re pitchers, that’s what pitchers do!”
So, you agree or disagree? Let’s talk about it.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 24 | 18 | .571 | - |
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| Phillies | 20 | 23 | .465 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 24 | .400 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 32 | .256 | 13.5 |
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Here’s the thing
- Do I think a pitch count should be made public? No. If you tell me this guy won’t make it past x number of pitches, then I’m trying to get him to that # quicker than a normal outing. Nobody needs to know a pitcher is on any sort of count
- What Darling was MISSING in his rant was Strasburg is coming off Tommy John surgery. Do I think if Strasburg was never injured and on opening day roster that he should be on a pitch count? No. But do I think he should be a season after he has Tommy John? Yes. Why? Because their DOCTOR is telling them to do it. This is not Davey or Rizzo saying “Joba rules,” this is their team doctor who handled J. Zimmerman’s injury the same exact way. It is their medical staff’s opinion, and I’m sorry I love Ron Darling but he’s not a Doctor.
20 years ago, maybe there were no pitch counts because we didn’t know as much as we know now medically about throwing arms. I said it before in the sandbox, 20 years ago the NFL didn’t know as much about concussions, thats why I don’t buy into former players or anybody saying a player in today’s game should play with a concussion. It’s a different world. We shouldn’t ignore what we know.
Washington’s main objective is to have Strasburg pitch for their team for 8-10 years. If they feel a year off Tommy John he should be limited, then who cares?
I honestly think Strasburg will have a short career and personally I think WSH management etc think it as well and are trying to keep him healthy short term so they can make a run in 2-3 years before its too late
Actually pitch counts have been around forever, they just weren’t made public until the last 15-20 years. The pitch counts were much higher back then, than they are now and they varied depending on the pitcher himself. Even the late 60′s Mets staff were all on pitch counts. Now we have pitch counts on scoreboards at stadiums and this year SNY added it to their little box on the screen. Broadcasters are reminding us every 10th pitch what the pitchers PC is.
I agree with Ron for the most part although Strasburg is a different case. He had TJ and it was 19 months ago but his delivery is so violent, I can’t blame them for limiting his pitch counts. You can make he case that he was being babied before the injury and he still got hurt.
Overall I think Ronnie is exactly right. Pitchers are babied and they’re still getting hurt. You can cut back pitch counts into the 70′s and pitchers will still get hurt. Kids throwing breaking balls at very young ages and mechanics have more to do with injuries than pitch counts. That’s not to say pitchers should go out and throw 150 pitches a start like they allow in college but when I see a pitcher set down 16-17 straight hitters get lifed becuase he’s at 100,101,102 pitches in the 6th,7th innings, it drives me nuts.
Every pitcher is different and should be treated as such. There should be no magic number for each pitcher to hit to end his night. Some guys are gassed after 90, some 100, some 115, and so on.
Jessep, Tom Seaver would definitely disagree with you! He and many of his peers went out to the mound ready for pitching a complete game of nine innings! They got paid a hell of a lot less for it but did a better job! Arm injuries, Tommy John Surgery, dead arm syndrome, mental lapses, etc. weren’t part of resumes for pitchers like Seaver, Gibson, Tiant, Drysdale, Jenkins, Marichial, Ryan, Palmer, Koosman, and their peers!
That’s absolutely true, but for every name you ust mentioned, there’s 20 guys who blew their arm out in the minors. It worked for those guys because those are some of the greatest pitchers ever. It’s like saying, well…….Albert Pujols and Mickey Mantle didn’t need extra BP, so those who do need it should be ripped apart.
That is great Tiger, and I totally appreciate them. But this is not the 1970′s anymore. Teams are invested more in their players than ever before.
You named all-time greats, but what about guys who weren’t all-time greats? I’d venture to guess a pitchers career in today’s era is likely longer/more effective for a longer period of time than back in their era. Are there exceptions? Of course. But for every Tom Seaver there are 10 Gary Gentry or Jim McAndrew’s for example.
The game is different. Players are conditioned differently from the time they are a coveted HS prospect to the day they hit the bigs.
Strasburg was an injury risk, everybody knew it. Before he ever pitched in the bigs people had concerns for his arm. And them boom, Tommy John Surgery. Washington’s main objective is to get the longest return possible on their investment in him. I don’t blame them at all for being cautious this year.
MLB is over expanded as well! It has gone from 16 teams to 30. That’s 750 players that would have been either AAA or AA. Yes, this is not the 1970s but given that there are more making the MLB rosters, the talent pool of who actually made the team was deeper then.
You mention conditioning as being better now. That’s debatable when pitchers then went 8-10 innings and not this six inning quality start nonsense. Part of the difference is not just era but attitude manifesting itself in performance – the drive towards excellence! Gibson and Seaver both had it! Although a different sport, Jordan had it. It appears as though getting the big contract is the motivation. That also creates “Cling ons,” pitchers and players past their primes still playing for that big million dollar plus contract.
Or because they still love to play and someone is willing to give them a roster spot.
Also, while there was winter ball in the Good Ole Days That Didn’t Actually Happen, off season work was nothing like it is now. there are fall leagues, winter leagues, off season training camps and then spring training, regular season etc etc. Players these days never stop to recuperate.
Do you know the original purpose of Spring Training was? So all the guys who worked regular jobs in the off season could get back in playing shape.
Are you sure they weren’t issues, or is that simply because they didn’t know about them before?
Take a close look at Sandy Koufax’s career and tell me dead arm syndrome and injuries weren’t a reality back then.
Tom Seaver himself said that he and his teammates did have pitch counts, but it was nothing like you hear today and it was not a standard number for everyone. The pitch count was devised by the player their ability and durability. He would have a number, Kooseman would have another and Nolan Ryan’s far exceed both he and Kooseman’s number.
So they have existed but was used differently than it is today.
Seaver’s was 135, give or take.
Seaver 135, Kooz 145, Ryan 155.
My problem is Ronnie was ranting against something no one ever actually said. Also, as Jessep pointed out, Strasburg is just coming back from TJS.
And, by the way, pitch counts have been around since at least the 1950s.
But the “no ambulance needed” quip was kind of funny.
But that now infamous Ronnie rant was funny. Don’t think I’ve ever heard him so mad.
THERE IS NO BOOK!!
Jessep said above:
‘I honestly think Strasburg will have a short career and personally I think WSH management etc think it as well and are trying to keep him healthy short term so they can make a run in 2-3 years before its too late.’
That’s not the first time I’ve read this speculation, some of it involving beat writers and analysts. WIll be interesting to see if he does indeed flame out in a few short years.
I agree it is funny. He was really on a tangent.
I’m also of the opinion that Strasburg will not have a long career so we get to enjoy him while his arm holds up.
Plenty of analysis done on how his pitching arm as compared to most others is in a position that will cause eventual stress on his shoulder.
He was nasty, especially to Ike, you can just tip your hat and if by God’s grace he has a HOF career then Ike can say he was over matched by a stud
THERE IS NO BOOK!
Do not know if I am actually responding to THE Ron Darling but he was absolutely correct in saying there was “no book” either way. There could be no better example than referring to those special “Joba Rules” and after all that babying he nonetheless still wound up having Tommy John surgery.
MLB gave an interesting take on Strassburg. They pointed out as he goes into his windup instead of his arm going straight back it is instead stretched across his back (to the point that batters actually see the ball and his grip) and by pulling his arm back on such an extreme angle (instead of it even with his body) he gets a tremendous whip action which also has the potential to build up a lot of strain on his pitching arm. It could be his motion that caused him to miss a full season more than any pitch count.
“Do not know if I am actually responding to THE Ron Darling but he was absolutely correct in saying there was “no book” either way.”
Who did say there was a book?
” There could be no better example than referring to those special “Joba Rules” and after all that babying he nonetheless still wound up having Tommy John surgery.”
No, that is actually a bad example. 2 main reasons.
1) They were called the Joba Rules for the reason that they were tailored specifically for him on the advice and experience of his doctors and coaches.
2) The Yankees weren’t counting pitches, they were counting innings. This has the flaw in assuming that all innings were created equal.
Hi Donal
If you were watching the broadcast, you might recall that was Ron’s exact words “there is no book, one way or the other” regarding how much one can and can’t throw in a ball game, over a season and for a career.
The Joba example showed that what you said “were tailored specifically for him on the advice and experience of his doctors and coaches” proves Ron’s point. With all those precautions he still hurt his arm.
And if the rules applied to innings instead of pitches does that mean the amount of pitches he threw was irrelevant? That he could throw 50 pitches in five innings and be taken out but throw 72 in four and still go out for the fifth?
Of course homer ronny didn’t say a word about a putch count on the babied Johan. Gee ronn why can’t johan pitch a complete game. afterall nobody hitting him. Darling used to be a good announcer. Now he’s just another homer making useless comments to appease his owners. Too bad, he has the knowledge to be a man, not a clown like all the other homers around the game.
Johan is still recovering from his surgery where others are not. Johan wants to turn it up and they will take the leash off him soon. Shoulder surgery is not like TJ or others where when you’re back, you can turn it on. He is probably still 3-4 months from full strength.
Strasburg was babied and ended up getting TJ. He didn’t have those problems in college or before that.
Strasburg, Joba, Hughes, all these pitchers got babied and ended up hurt and no stamina.
Nolan Ryan is trying to remove the babying from baseball and it seems to be working well enough in Texas.
It should be based on the pitcher not some pencil necked geek who has a book and says 100 is the limit. Most of this crap is probably from someone who has never played the game.
Body types need to be taken into account too. You can have a big horse like Pelf or a little pitcher like Lincecum, different tolerances.
Bingo internet guy. And your Johan point as well. He’s coming back from an injury that no other pitcher has ever fully recovered from. It’s not babying, it’s protecting the 50 million still invested in him. Like I said above. Each pitcher should be treated differently. There is no set number of pitches. Each pitcher needs to be on his own pitch count. It shouldn’t be 100 for everybody.