8
2012
Mets Were Wrong To Give Niese An Extension This Soon
An article by Former Writers
Last we learned that the Mets were close to giving Jon Niese an extension on his current contract.The Mets have now made it official. The deal is worth five years, $25.5 million dollars with team options for 2017 and 2018 that could bring the total value to $46 million.
I think the Mets made a mistake are to sign Niese to an extension this soon. I don’t understand why this front office would rush to sign a pitcher who is still under team control for another three years, and one who has never pitched 200 innings in a season, or posted an ERA under 4.20, or had a winning record. What was the big rush?
Don’t get me wrong, I like Niese. I think he has a lot of potential, and back when there were some trade rumors surrounding him this past winter, I was 100% against the thought of trading the young left-hander. That said, Niese has yes to convinced me that he’s worth that kind of financial commitment.
For starters he has never pitched over 173 innings in his short career. During his last ten starts in 2010, Niese became physically exhausted and struggled mightily. His struggles were attributed to poor conditioning and he finished the season with a 9-10 record.
Last year, Niese was inconsistent and very unimpressive at times. He finished the season on the disabled list with a ribcage injury and wound up with a record of 11-11 and a 4-40 in 157.1 innings pitched. Opposing hitters batted .286 against him.
Niese, 25, has also shown that he has trouble staying healthy. In 2009 Niese completely tore his hamstring. In 2010, he missed even more time after suffering another hamstring injury in a game against the Marlins. Last year, was the third consecutive season Niese missed significant time due to injury. I’m worried that this trend will continue since Niese has yet to prove he can stay healthy for an entire season.
I understand this extension buys out a couple of arbitration years and one year of free agency, but Niese has not yet risen to a level that would warrant such a significant deal – the largest deal Alderson had dished out sine becoming GM.
It might have been more prudent and a wiser decision to simply wait until the end of this current season to see if Niese improves his performance on the mound, and prove that he can play a full season without getting hurt.
Hopefully, this won’t come back to bite the Mets.
About the Author: Former Writers
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Heh, ok so I’m going through my FB feed this morning, responding to people, and I see this title pop up. I think to myself “This has *Pomes* written all over it.” Lo and behold…lol. I mean, can you get more predictable here, Greg?
I get the naysayers, I do. Niese has conditioning issues but if you remember, his injuries that keep him out are never *knock wood* pitching related. That’s a plus. He needs to do better conditioning himself in the future. (As an aside, I read Dickey’s book, where he tells the young guys actively to NEVER go on the DL if they can’t help it. Which can backfire – a simple scratch from a game can mean stronger finishes but I digress).
This deal is a smart one and good one. For one, even though Niese is technically “under control” for four years previously before the extension, it avoids arbs. Chances are, you are not thinking of the market for young lefty starters. Niese is a luxury for most teams. We’re lucky to have him as ours. That’s one. Two, it’s only giving him ONE more year under Mets control technically. Three, it gives a vote of confidence to a home grown guy, something the Mets historically never do. (Do I need to go back and say this is the same franchise that once upon a time gave up on Nolan Ryan and traded away their franchise player?? No? Ok.). Four, it shows that the Mets are giving an aura of financial independence. I know you like to bury your head in the sand, but the truth was, with the Madoff settlement looming, it was hard for the ownership to commit to long term deals. I know that’s hard for you to believe, and I think it was selfish…BUT! Now that they at least know what that brings, then this contract gives the air of “well, it’s a ‘long term deal’ but not **too** long. It’s more money, but not **too** much money.”
Plus, Niese could be in the leaderboards for Mets pitching by the time this contract is done, mark my words.
Greg, I admire your passion, but once again, I totally disagree with you here.
Heh, ok so I’m going through my FB feed this morning, responding to people, and I see this title pop up. I think to myself “This has *Pomes* written all over it.” Lo and behold…lol. I mean, can you get more predictable here, Greg?
HAHAHAHAHA!
With the team options it’s actually three extra years of team control, which makes the deal better for the Mets
If Niese finishes the season with 30 starts, 180 innings and a sub-4 ERA, the Mets wouldn’t be able to get him that cheap. And if everyone likes him so much and expects that line, let alone hopes for it, there’s no problem with the deal at all.
‘It might have been more prudent and a wiser decision to simply wait until the end of this current season to see if Niese improves his performance on the mound, and prove that he can play a full season without getting hurt.’
Hmmmm…….how did that work out last time this FO made that same statement about it’s soon to be FA SS?
I know the 2 players can’t be compared but honestly, this was a no brainer.
Young lefty with upside, team friendly contract – one that still allows them to trade him if that’s in future plans. What’s not to like?
pffft. Didn’t even have to click before I knew this was a Pomes hit-piece. The second most predictable individual on this site. Just because Pomes’ grammar is better doesn’t make him any less of a troll.
Why is this a hit piece? Because you say so? It’s his opinion so why don’t you get your tongue out of Alderson’s butt so you can see the difference. You seem to be the one who’s trolling not Greg who only shared an opinion which is what I thought this site was all about.
I don’t see the harm in waiting another year to see if Niese was worth this big money. Now if he ends up sucking we’re on the hook. This deal ands up being bigger than the Castillo and Perez deals in dollars. Heck lets go give 5 year deals to Gee and Pelfrey too while we’re at it.
How can you even compare the Castillo contract to this. Castillo signed a 4 year 25 contract. At the time he was a 32 years old with dead legs. He lost his range in the field and his ability to put up great SB totals were gone by 2004. Not to mention that he swatted the baseball like it was a fly.
Niese is a 25 year old starting LHP. If you just take value by position, a decent LHP will get more than a 2nd baseman.
I don’t see how this is a “hit-piece” either. And I actually disagree with the article.
I think locking up a young, talented, lefthanded strarter like Niese is a very good move. Yes, he has been inconsistent at times, but I can name you dozens of good pitchers that were inconsistent when they were around Niese’s age – He’s only 25! So, he’s only going to get better.
Actually, I’ve been a vocal critic of Alderson, so my tongue is nowhere near where you so elegantly implied. Nice try, though. You’re a classy guy, so I’m sure success will find you somewhere off the internet. There’s a segment of the population here who are so sad and bitter that they don’t even root for their team to succeed anymore, and merely root for the front office to fail so that their own pathetic little agendas (and in some cases, prejudices) can be advanced. Pomes historically posts nothing but negative, often unsubstantiated pieces merely to stir the pot, and the minute I saw this headline, I knew it was him. I find his schtick tiresome. Am I not allowed to express MY opinion? Perhaps had I resorted to scatological playground insults you would find it more valid?
It’s not like the Mets are the 1st team to do this. Tampa Bay gave Matt Moore 7 yrs after only 9 1/3 ML IP, and the Royals gave C Salvador Perez a similar extension after only 39 ML Games. I know Moore is considered the best LH pitching prospect in the game, but isn’t his deal riskier than Niese’s? The bottom line is that during his arbitration years, which begin after this season, he would likely make at least as much, if not more, than what he gets in this deal. This is a win win for both sides, the Mets save some money and add some contract control while Niese gets good financial security for the immediate f
And Ed Randall said this morning on WFAN that the Cleveland Indians of the 90s used to do this too so this is nothing new or innovative as much as people want it to seem that way.
Personally i would not have done it just yet.
No one said it was new or innovative. In fact, most people in favor of this deal mentioned how this is SOP for good teams.
Please stop lying about others to fake being smart.
So here’s what happens. This guy comments on it, but if he doesn’t like the people who share his opinion, he changes his story and hopes no one notices, just so he can be childish and difficult and argumentative. And as Donal stated, he’s also a chronic liar about what OTHER people say.
Bayonne Mets Fan April 1, 2012 at 6:24 pm .
I like this move too…for the Mets
Bayonne Mets Fan April 8, 2012 at 11:36 am .
Personally i would not have done it just yet.
Right,
Good move for the Mets but personally I would not have done it. You want me to be dishonest and say i would have done it just because it was a good move by them? No, I personally would not have done it.
I knew somebody was going to do that and typically it’s this clown. We have 2 clowns who always accuse people of lying – which I do not do so I don’t know how many times I have to tell this stinking piece of garbage that. It just tells you from where these fantasy baseball bums come fromm.
No doubt in my mind some saber goon is gonna think this is some kind of ingenious move by Alderson (somebody like Craig Lerner who thinks everything Alderson does is an epiphany) when it has been done before
“We have 2 clowns who always accuse people of lying – which I do not do”
Just because you only call people liars in the cozy confines of the shout box, doesn’t mean it doesn’t count.
OK, then tell us who said this move was new and/or innovative. Show us that isn’t just some weak attempt of building a straw man to try and look smart.
First off I fail to see any conflict in those two statements, He likes the move not the timing!
Two SEPERATE issues!
It’s hardly as bad as your usual tactic of making a statement and then when someone offers proof it was false quickly tries to change the subject to something else hoping it puts enough smoke around your initial statement to hide the fact you got proven wrong…
Such as saying OBP is Most Important correlator and better than any other metric in regards to RS and then when it is pointed out how badly it actually correlates you harp on the definition of RBI (which happend to correlate better) and ignoring the fact the OBP didn’t correlate AT ALL!
Funny how the Majority or posts from Donal and You are all about other posters and your hatred and MISSION to prove them wrong yet keep trying to accuse the other posters of doing that!
And when your mission fails and you get proved wrong you run for the hills and hope no one notices your concession and surrender!
Please Your far worse at what you accuse others of than they are!
The classic Bait and Switch artist!
You have zero credibility at this point and anything you post generally reads like the teacher from Peanuts.
Incidentally, I was thinking of relocating. I’ll offer you 100K for your house. What do you think?
Yep Zero credibility to you Jessup and Donal…Oh Yeah and your alter egos that you guys post as to pad out your numbers!
Truth is you three horseman think your the entire site but guess what your not!
You have been proved wrong more times than anyone can count Exposed as a hypocrite for complaining about insults and being the leading insulter around here and it’s usually because your most focused on posting about posters than baseball!
Probably smart because when you do make baseball posts you only wind up looking foolish!
Funny how when you donal and Jessup took a little Posting Vacation a month ago how CIVIL the site was while you were gone!
We all can hope you take another one because the site it 10 times better without your buttwipes plying your little Schoolyard banter like 3rd graders fighting over who’se daddy is tougher than the other…
“Yep Zero credibility to you Jessup and Donal…Oh Yeah and your alter egos that you guys post as to pad out your numbers!”
OK, Mr 303 IQ (that will never get old), who are the sock puppets? Name the bogus accounts any of us post under.
No, you’re not going to.
“Truth is you three horseman think your the entire site but guess what your not!”
Based on… nothing. Just another strawman you construct to distract from how out of your league you are.
“You have been proved wrong more times than anyone can count”
Like when he said Beltran was signed on as a fill in? Oh wait he wasn’t the one said that…
” Exposed as a hypocrite for complaining about insults and being the leading insulter around here and it’s usually because your most focused on posting about posters than baseball!”
Not just was all of that a bunch of crap but you take the side of people who make threats, stalk people and insult family members.
“Probably smart because when you do make baseball posts you only wind up looking foolish!”
You claimed Beltran was signed as a temporary fill in. And that is just your most recent blatant foolishness Be quiet.
“Funny how when you donal and Jessup took a little Posting Vacation a month ago how CIVIL the site was while you were gone!”
Actually, I’ve been posting pretty regularly. But, hey, you’ve never let facts get in the way of a rant.
“We all can hope you take another one because the site it 10 times better without your buttwipes plying your little Schoolyard banter like 3rd graders fighting over who’se daddy is tougher than the other…”
Stay classy, Metsie.
Now, go ahead and post something ranting, take a buck shot approach to topics, end every sentence with an exclamation point for no reason, and make it long and ranting just so you can get the last word.
Donal I think Metsie is just getting a little testy because the bullpen hasn’t faltered yet after he condemned it over a couple of ST innings and Tejada hasn’t looked too bad at SS so far and Alderson spent 25 M on a young healthy LHP for the next 5-7 years instead of a another Luis Castillo, Jason Bay or Oliver Perez.
Oh and my current Tax Value on my house is around 750K!
It has 5 Acres and my own personal Lake…
Can you afford that on your McDonalds Manager Salary?
Shoot. That sounds fantastic. I’d love comfortable surroundings like that. What if someone were to offer you say……$10 mil? Maybe you can even push them to $12.5 mil. What then?
Take the 12 Mil and Build on the 10 Acres of undeveloped property I have 2 Miles away!
Got 12 Mil?
Send a check I’ll mail you the deed!
Great. Your price is $12 mil. I’ll keep that in mind. Thanks for playing along.
And thank you for once again wasting everyone’s time with your childish Banter for no purpose other than to change the subject!
Thats not my price by the way but you did offer such a stupid amount!
And far be it from me to not take an idiots money!
Let me guess yor going to run out to Walmart and buy up every monolpoly game hoping I will take 12 Mil worth of that right?
Really This conversation is proof positive about who ACTUAL:LY has no credibility and/or should have permission posting without the supervision of an Adult/Guardian!
No, it actually proves a very subtle point. I’m satisfied with the answers, and that’s all that matters.
Yes it does, it proves your more interested in talking about posters than baseball!
Thats about the ONLY point you could make with this line of commentary!
But more likely it is like the rest of your posts…POINTLESS!
We’ll see.
Be sure to post whatever you think you have found! I’ll take pleasure in embarassing you over it!
Wow, you are so awesome. Hey, tell us about your super model girlfriends and al lthe martial arts you’ve mastered.
April 1st he thinks it’s a good deal for the Mets and april 8th he doesn’t…………cause of the timing.
OK.
The deal is entirely dependent on the timing. With 2 years to go before FA it would cost 15 M more. One year to go 25-30 M more. The fact that its completely in line with Derrick Holland’s deal shows just how reasonable this is for both parties, not to mention what a lift it must give the younger guys and the prospects to see one of their own getting paid instead of replaced by someone making 3 times as much who’s already in decline.
Gives a subtle shot across the bow to Wright and Pelfrey too. Seems to have lit a spark under the first one and we’ll see tomorrow about the 2nd.
Ah well, nothing to complain about in the pen yet, Wright’s had a few big hits, Murphy hasn’t blown one yet, might as well complain about Alderson addressing the future.
Except no one claimed it was innovative or an new idea, just a good one and yes most people are aware that Cleveland used this model and don’t need Ed Randall to fill in the blanks for them.
That’s how Cleveland won 6 Divisions in 7 years, by keeping their young players together even with a miniscule payroll.
Big money? 5 million dollars a year is far from big money for a pitcher who has great talent and will succeed big time. Pelfrey got his recommended arbitration at 6.5 million and he was terrible last year.
It’s a sign of respect. We want Jon here for the foreseeable future and this was a great move. Ex- the Brewers didn’t offer Prince any contract when he was young and felt extremely slighted by the organization. Where is he now? He could have been a Brewer for life if they were smart like the Mets F.O.
Oh, P.S., Greg Pomes is a troll who knows nothing about baseball. At all. Beats me how he was given permission to write on a website.
Wow, some of you people are vicious and cruel. I was actually going to respectfully disagree here, but my God. A Happy Easter to all of you including those of you raised in a barn.
There are valid points to be made on both sides of the issue so I’m really stuck in the middle on this (cop-out? LOL).
As a businessperson, I think Sandy pulled a fast one over Niese’s agent in terms of money but at the same time, Jonathan’s agent got a still un-established pitcher a nice hunk of social security – if he knows how to save and invest it wisely. If Jonathan becomes the pitcher we hope he will even with the incentives the Mets are ahead of the game financially and if he unfortunately doesn’t work out, we can always eat some of his contract in a trade for in baseball terms, his salary and contract length should not be a stumbling block that either side could not negotiate over.
Well Greg while I agree the future “Maybe” may make this deal a problem, it’s only a problem if there is an actual future “Maybe” in it. I personally don’t expect Niese to be here till the end of this deal it seems much more like a set up for a Deadline trade than an attempt to lockup a good starter for a number of years.
But lets for the moment say it is a deal made for those reasons…
For the Price of a Pelfrey (5Mil just awarded in Arb) we get a pitcher MILES better than Pelfrey…
If we waited the per year number would probably go up (just based on what Pelfrey got alone it would be more money) so it’s not what I could call a horrible deal or one made too soon.
By the end of the season it could even be the steal of the century for all we know!
I have argued for the past 6 months about puuting more stock in what MIGHT happen than what IS happening and I apply that to both the positiove and negative outlooks people are assigning to the future!
You can hope and fret about the future but it’s all just speculative and not really useful!
Plans are fleeting and the best you can do is make a decision based on the player staying static and doing the same thing he is doing now for the duration.
And if Niese just does what he has done so far he’s well worth the 5 Mil that Pelfrey isn’t as he is a far better pitcher than pelfrey!
“It might have been more prudent and a wiser decision to simply wait until the end of this current season to see if Niese improves his performance on the mound, and prove that he can play a full season without getting hurt.”
And if Niese improved his performance, then you can increase that measly 5m a year to a bigger more deserved number.
Good contract for both sides. Mets demonstrating they are back in business. This is also such a low cost move that if Niese does get hurt, it has very little effect on the bottom line. It also adds a carrot for Niese to go after those 2 years worth of options.
For Niese, it adds loyalty, and Stability.
The only 2 reasons why someone wouldn’t like this contract. If they are overly risk adverse or are so entrenched in their Anti-Sandy ideology that they just can’t like it. If this is such a big risk, then you can’t stomach being a Mets after the last ten years of acquisitions.
“And if Niese improved his performance, then you can increase that measly 5m a year to a bigger more deserved number.”
Kind of what I was alluding to above…
Arb is all about comparing your numbers to other pitchers and what they make for similar numbers…
For Pelfrey alone (making 5M per) that would add an extra Mil per for any deal Niese got if we waited.
Only those who are so injury adverse or hate long term deals can really question it for the length but the price is right and if you can knock it for anything it is that it did not go longer to encompass his entire PRIME. It’s going to end right around the same point in his career as reyes’ contract did.
But thats a minor thing to me as we can extend him before that!
Exactly. If he turns out better than expected, you can do another contract and bypass those options, and if he doesn’t have any value, you just let him go.
I agree with Greg here- what was the big rush to sign Niese to a long term contract extension especially in this now austerity mode for the Wilpons and Mets. So far Niese in the bigs has been a tease- highly inconsistent and seems to have some sort of hit a wall issue later in the season. Plus, the Mets have SP prospects- Wheeler, Harvey, Familia and the underrated Gorski coming. I truly believe that Gorski has a shot of being better in the bigs than Niese because of his Santana like up to 90-91 fb and nasty, mondo change-up combo and good control and command. On the other side of the coin, cost certainty is a huge plus in trade talks if Sandy or some other Met GM wants to try to trade Niese down the road.
“I think the Mets made a mistake are to sign Niese to an extension this soon. I don’t understand why this front office would rush to sign a pitcher who is still under team control for another three years, and one who has never pitched 200 innings in a season, or posted an ERA under 4.20, or had a winning record. What was the big rush?”
You buyout arbitration based on market value. If Niese wins 20 games, he’d cost them more over the next 5 years. They used Derek Holland’s market value.
The big rush was making a wise move that several teams do to lock up young talent to secure the best years of their career are with your team.
What is so wrong with taking the position that we should have waited on this extension? I dont understand why this position is so outlandish it has to be attacked? The comments here getting to be a bit much on this site. If we were to sign everybody that comes up from the minors to longterm extensions based solely on potential and not any real results that would indicate stardom, we’ll soon find ourselves hogtied financially again in very short order.
I actually agree with Greg who doesn’t actually knock the deal only suggest it might have been to soon. I agree. I guess this is now the part where I get attacked and I stop commenting here for another 2-3 months.
This used to be a site for great debate. Amazin Avenue is the only place for that now.
No Squidoo I think it’s more about Alderson being complained about for not spending any money and then when he does people complain about that too.
The reality as I see it is that we would have paid Niese half of that money year by year in arbitration anyway. Even as poorly as Pelfrey has pitched he’s made 9 M this year and last and would probably get 8 M if he was tendered next season so for the additional 12 M we got Niese for another season and the option of having him for 2 more. Wait a year and the price would be twice as much in buying out 2 FA years and reserving two more.
The only way to lose is if he got hurt and we would have preferred to non tender him so as far as gambles go the 12 M excess isn’t huge in the whole scheme of things. Ten years ago we paid Mo Vaughn 30 M and Roberto Alomar 16 M for two years. Five years ago we paid Moises Alou 15 M for 2 years and in 2010 we paid Jason Bay 66 M for 4 years.
This extra 12 M for one year and the right to keep Niese for 2 more (at 10 M and 10.5 M) seems like a huge bargain to me especially the way pitching is going through the roof right now.
For me Squidoo I think its a matter of looking at half of the story and coming up with a judgment.
For starters, Jon Niese was going to be a Met for the next 3 years unless they traded him. He’s a young lefty that has proven if healthy he’s a solid mid-rotation guy.
At some point, you have to put faith in your young core of guys. I expect the Mets will do the same thing with Davis and hopefully one day Duda as they approach arbitration.
All this deal does is say the front office believes in Niese AND they do not want to go to court to discuss what type of salary he should earn. They are controlling Niese for what should be his best years and giving themselves options at the back end.
Using market value when the pitchers value is lower is not a bad thing. They used the Derek Holland model, and if Niese hits his potential, he could make less $ than he’s possibly worth.
I love the idea of locking up your youth for the years they are most likely to perform and I think you should too.
Buying out arbitration years, a FA one and then tacking on a couple of club option years on top of it through a players prime is exactly the recipe for having a well conceived 25 man roster.
The guarantee is light in that we would almost certainly be tendering Niese a contract in those years anyway and the reward in the extra year and the club option years is enormous. Rather than having to offer a 5 year guarantee from 29-33 for 100 M we’ve basically just extended him a year and reserved the right to do so for two more seasons at a great price. The entire risk is in ages 25-28 and while he still is shooting for the big deal, not after having received it.
Proactively working toward the future as well as addressing the present instead of just seeing whoever happens to be available every off season is the essence of a GM’s job.
Spending a little more now and saving quite a bit later is a very strong move going forward and provides a big shot in the arm for other younger players and prospects who’ve seen time and time again big name expensive players brought in on long term guaranteed deals most of whom haven’t produced at the levels that were expected.
Well using that logic, why hasn’t Alderson locked up Bobby Parnell who becomes arbitration eligible after this season? What are we waiting for? Like Niese, Parnell is someone who has struggled but oozes with potential, right?
Because there is a greater demand for Niese and a guy like him is much harder to replace.
Also, Nierse’s peripheral numbers are good and have been improving as he gains more experience. In other words, he has been trending upwards.
Now, if Parnell shows us that his performance this weekend wasn’t a fluke and he has indeed put it together, I’m all for giving a 2 or 3 years deal with maybe a club option at the end.
Right, not every situation is the same. Nobody’s saying take every Met player approaching arbitration or involved in it and lock them up.
If the Mets are to build a young core of players keeping Niese is a part of that equation, Parnell who looked awesome this weekend, is not as vital to the Mets future success right now as Niese. Therefore you can wait on him.