5
2012
Hits and Misses: Marlins Pregame Was A Disgrace, Niese Deal Is Not A Wilpon PR Move, It’s Opening Day!
An article by 
Just a couple of thoughts on that bizarre Marlins pregame ceremony and the reports of a 5-year Niese extension.
What a despicable act by the Miami Marlins last night, who decided it would be a brilliant idea to wheel out the ailing boxing icon Muhammad Ali as part of their pre-game ceremonies. Sorry, but that was a terrible call, and to use someone so legendary and obviously so frail as a stage prop was uncalled for.
It was emabarrasing to see and all I could feel was outrage for the Marlins and sadness for the one they used to call “The Greatest”. Ali was supposed to throw out the first pitch, but couldn’t because of the severity of his Parkinson’s Disease, and in fact he didn’t even utter a word. It was a bad scene.
Can you believe that the same folks who predicted bankruptcy and scandal for the Wilpon family, are now spinning the recent news about a potential five-year deal for Jon Niese as a Wilpon concocted PR scheme? I’d link you, but I don’t want to stir things up. However I’m sure it wouldn’t take you long to see some of these absurd assumptions and statements after a simple search. I guess some people refuse to let this Picard/Madoff/Wilpon thing die. They insist on screaming fire when there is no smoke, mostly because they need to do some damage control on their reputations which took a devastating hit when it turned out the Wilpons will simply end up owing $6-8 million dollars in four years.
To that end, Sandy Alderson who was a guest on WFAN this morning, scoffed at his host Joe and Evan and gave them a strong rebuke when they even brought up the Mets financial situation. ”This perception of the Mets financial uncertainty is mostly inaccurate and overblown. If we need to spend to add a big piece in July, we will. There’s no doubt about it. I wish people will stop harping on this financial situation which is not the big deal that some seem to think it is. The dynamic surrounding the Mets financial circumstances have improved dramatically though some still choose to be oblivious to that.”
Bottom line on Niese: It was a good move to lock up a young left-handed pitcher on the cheap. Niese has some excellent peripherals that bode well for a spike in his future performance. Nice job by SANDY ALDERSON who spoke highly of Niese when trade rumors about him abounded this Winter.
Hey, It’s Opening Day! Johan Santana is on the mound… Murphy, Wright, Davis, Bay and Duda are all in the lineup for the first time ever? I don’t seem to recall all five being on the field at the same time, do you? It’s gotta be a good sign.
I have some hopes for this team moving forward. I don’t see the gloom and doom a lot of fans are consuming themselves with. I’ve see dark days before and these are not dark days. I caused a bit of a flurry yesterday when I tweeted that this feels a lot like like 1983. Sorry to those who disagree, but that’s how I feel. The comparisons are very stark and I’m not simply talking about the fact that we now have a patient and methodical GM like Frank Cashen in Sandy Alderson. That’s not to say I agree with everything Alderson does, I don’t. I didn’t agree with everything Cashen did either.
We have a minor league system that seems to be flourishing now thanks to both Omar Minaya and Alderson. As much as some of you want to separate the two, the truth is they both have a hand in some of the exciting players that are already here or on the horizon.
Alderson affirmed quite emphatically today that the Mets have no money problems, are not restricted to a below $100 million payroll, and can spend as soon as this season if the right player came along in a trade.
Anyway, there will be plenty of time to delve deeper into this in the coming weeks, but take my word for it, one day we’ll look back at this 2012 season as the beginning of a great Mets era – just as we do when we think of 1983.
For now, just throw some hot dogs on the grill, crack open an ice cold beer or Pepsi (no alcohol for me 
), tune into SNY, and enjoy the game… 
Lets Go Mets!
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
154 Comments + Add Comment
Recent Comments
- TexasGusCC: on Mets Offense Comes Up Empty In 4-0 Loss To Reds: Leroy, Wright is the only saving grace in...
- Kyle D.: on Mets Offense Comes Up Empty In 4-0 Loss To Reds: I think they're facing some of the...
- Randall: on Mets Offense Comes Up Empty In 4-0 Loss To Reds: I just don't understand how you don't...
- Hitman: on Sandy Alderson Says He Will Stick With Ike Davis A Little While Longer: ”What are you going to do?” Translation:...
- Joey D.: on Mets Offense Comes Up Empty In 4-0 Loss To Reds: Hi Kay, What you say about Ojeda might...
MMO Mets Chat
Need Tickets To The Mets Game?
Check Out These Great MLB Links!
Photographs From Gordon Donovan
5378 Fans Follow Us On Twitter!
1269 Fans Like Us On Facebook!
2341 Fans Read Our Feed!
1702 Fans Subscribe via Daily Email!
We talked about the Marlins pregame i nthe shoutbox. It was horrendous. I can’t even make fun of the Marlins today because I’m so revolted by it.
what I really don’t get is why did his family sign off on it?
Despite of sandy alderson, LET’S GO METS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hate to start this season out on a hateful note. But given the horro of last night’s pregame combined with Ben McGrath’s article in the New Yorker on the whole Marlins organization and brand, I think I now hate them more than the Phillies and almost as much as the Skanks. Please, please let’s see them self-combst!
Oh, and LET’S GO METSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you got a link to it?
and I’ve disliked the Marlins for a while. When they were dancing o nthe field after the Shea finale so the grounds crew couldn’t set up for the closing festivities, I was beyond pissed off. a totally classless act from a bunch of jerks who cried about Reyes’ handshakes (but have no issue with them now).
Ali event was not good at all. Glad Marlins lost. Hard to see Jose playing for someone else.
At the same time, if money is not an issue, why is Reyes playing for someone else. Did we have money and chose not to invest in him or did not have money and could not invest in him.
If they did not want to give him the money fine, just say it and move on. Mets have not said which one it is.
A little of both. Plus, I think the years played a bigger role.
Yeah Sandy and reports said as much. The framework of the Mets offer included less years and more incentives based on PA.
The Ali event was pathetic. What a great way to embarrass a hero for a few more bucks. Did it really take bringing in Ali to make your home opener in a new stadium a true “event”?
I’ve been familiar with Jeffrey Loria since his days in Montreal. He has to be one of the most arrogant men in baseball. A complete and total unrepentant liar. I mean I can’t stand Fred Wilpon, but at least he is a decent human being. Jeffrey Loria is a piece of shit.
My wife and I felt heartbroken when Ali was carted out onto the field, literally a shell of his old self and unable to even raise his arm to wave to the fans. It was a sad sight to see, but then, nobody forced The Greatest to do it, either. We must keep that in mind.
While ESPN was plugging this as a dawn of a new franchise, it’s still just the fish playing in Miami. What I noticed was that unlike today, when the fans stood up when the Mets were introduced on the field, the Marlin “fans” sat down and give nice but not sustained applause. When Jose Reyes took his first at bat it almost seemed quiet as a mouse. Also, we saw many a person holding onto a bottle and horsing around, which made the home opener seem more of an event. A new face lift, a brand new ballpark won’t bring fans into the stands if they never came when the franchise was fielding champions.
Also took into what Sandy said ” ”This perception of the Mets financial uncertainty is mostly inaccurate and overblown. If we need to spend to add a big piece in July, we will. There’s no doubt about it. I wish people will stop harping on this financial situation which is not the big deal that some seem to think it is.”
Well, Mr. Alderson, who the hell made it that way? Who said a team could not go after more expensive free agents having lost $70 million? Who said it was the third year in a row that the Mets lost money? Who said it was imperative that the Mets slash their payroll and did so at a time the team was surprising everyone in baseball with their inspired play? Who said that he had a little money left and was saving it for the summer in case he needed to get replacements due to injury? And who said it was his goal to reduce the payroll more and more over the next few seasons?
Why do you think so many of us long-time Met fans are so fed up? Stop insulting our intelligence.
Joey D.,RIGHT ON!!!!!!Sandy Alderson is a smug lying piece of crap who talks out of both sides of his mouth.If he is serious,he would get David Wright signed to a three year extension and have him tied up for the next 5 years.He already is under control for the next 2 years.A three year deal for about 50 mill should get it done and stabilize third base and show the fans that the team is serious about winning games.Evan Roberts called him out on that today on Wfan and Alderson danced around the question.This idea of not signing your best home grown players to long term deals because they are not perfect players is absurd as was letting Reyes walk and than finding out he signed for 11 mill the first 2 years of his deal with the Marlins.What kind of an idiot does not resign a NL batting champ in the prime of his career?Can not wait .till Alderson and his lying weasel bosses are all gone.That said, it was great to see Johan dealing again today.
If you want people to like what you say around here you have to change your tune on Wright. In these parts Sandy is trying to destroy the franchise and Wright is the biggest choker since Mel Rojas.
So you did real well with your Sandy rant. That tone draws the right people in, but you immediately lost them 2 sentances later and now they will hate you.
Hi Salty,
I like David but could understand your feelings about him. But at least Gary and you were both disagreeing in terms of how best to make the Mets a winner.
Why a .300 hitter in Carlos Beltran wasn’t good enough to keep past the middle of last season yet is good enough for the defending World Champions to sign to a two year contract I think says it all. And why did Sandy say he had the money last summer but didn’t use it because we were never in the race last summer while SNY continued showing how the Mets were pulling themselves closer to Atlanta in the wildcard? On July 29th, even though it was after Carlos and KRod were sent packing, the Mets were still only six and a half games out of the wild card – and just six back in the loss column.
Oh yes, Sandy, that’s not in the race at all. It’s better to stick to one story, even if it isn’t true, then to flip flop.
I agree that bringing Ali was a disgrace, but why would his agent/family agree to it?
Joe, I couldn’t agree more, every one rips the Mets for their bad calls on things well what the Marlins did was disgraceful. I was embarrassed for them, the players had no idea what to do.
Last year felt more like 77….
I don’t get the 83 feeling this year, more like 82 actually.
a 3B who most fans love but may soon be traded off (Wright and Brooks).
A left fielder who gets paid a lot of money but doesn’t meet expectations. (Foster and Bay)
Two Young players (Mookie and Backman) who show promise (we have 3 this year one playing out of position Duda, Davis and Murphy)
A SS who is home grown and hyped but still unproven bat. (Gardenhire and Tejada)
A Headcase for a pitcher (Zachary and Pelfrey)
An injured Ace trying to come back (Swan and Santana)
A good promising Starter who may be traded soon (Scott and Niese)
A Closer who frustrates and blows saves (Allen and Francisco)
A second year rookie no one thought was going to make it but surprised people (Puleo and Gee)
About the only parralell to 83 might be in the Minors. If we equate Gooden with Wheeler we are still ahead of 82 by having Harvey, Familia and Mejia) We drafted Aguilera and Schiraldi in 83 who was traded for Ojeda eventually.
83 was a key year for the 86 Mets, You can talk about all the home growns of the 86ers you want but the move that made that franchise what it became was the trade of Allen for Hernandez.
Now where it’s different is I don’t expect the Manager to up and quit on us and although Collins has done that before the situation is much different than when he did that.
Am I hopeful for the Met future? YES! Always have been.
As I have said repeatedly it’s not that we dopn’t have a good future it is the fact that we may be making some moves that HURT the future because the players we let go could have been key pieces that win the extra games (on top of what we may win now) that put us in the 99-100 win groups that put you in the playoffs.
I remind everyone whose memory may harken back to the 80′s with this team that back in 82 and 83 people had NO HOPE for the team they had! NONE NADA ZILCH!
And with good reason too!
In 82 and 83 the team won 65 and 68 games which if the parralells being made are correct put the close to 100 losses prediction a lot closer than all the talk of hope does!
Hindsight is a wonderful thing that changes the memory of those who easily forget what they felt and thought at the time before Hidsight colored their world!
Does it feel like the Early 80′s today? Well lets face facts it almost ALWAYS feels like that around here with the exception of 85-88, 99-2001, and 2006-2008. Even in 69-73 most people thought the team was not really a contender which is where you gotta believe came from!
And as much as this might feel like the early 80′s it could just as easily go like the 78 Mets with a long drawn out rebuild that takes more than a couple of years!
Lest we forget despite the feeling ogf it being 83 all over again even if true it still took 3 years to win a WS, and that was the only WS that great team everyone wants to re-emulate ever won!
Glory is fleeting isn’t it? I loved watching the 86ers as much as anyone but as quickly as a rebuild can succeed is as quick as it can be dismantled with a few injuries and bonehead trades!
What Megdal doesn’t realize (because he’s in the business of getting attention rather than writing things that make sense) is that the Jon Niese deal is not a “long-term deal that Alderson would be against.”
It’s actually the EXACT type of deal guy like Alderson, Friedman, Daniels, Epstein etc WOULD make. It’s actually the exact way Tampa Bay turned their franchise into what it is today. They locked up guys like Longoria at a very young age and tacked on CLUB options to the deals to ensure the franchise is protected. Matt Moore, same thing.
It’s not a long term deal giving a 30 year old 6 years you goon. It’s locking up your YOUNG players when they are likely to be AT THEIR BEST.
This is EXACTLY what Mets fans SHOULD want them to do. Stop spending your money for players who are approaching their decline, and develop then lock up your younger talent and invest in their better years.
Well if what you say is true why didn’t he lock up Reyes who is entering his prime at 28 with a deal that pays him less than last year the next two years and has no “No Trade” clause that means he could be traded in 4 years easily for something else?
Yes he locked up a young guy (Niese) who shows promise long term but that promise is still unrealized potential thats unproven!
Just about the only thing you can say about this deal being very Sandy like is it locks up a guy who HAS potential to a cheap contract that costs no more than Pelfrey does per year but with a player who if he never takes another step is still a step or two BETTER than Pelfrey!
And the truth is WAY more likely that the reason he made this deal is because it makes Niese a much more tradeable commodity at the deadline for a bushel of prospects!
Yes this is a very Sandy deal indeed but not for the reasons you state!
It’s a very sandy deal because it makes yet another promising kid a good trade chip that is locked up long enough to get future quantity for current quality and not because Sandy expects Niese to still be here whenever his rebuild is done!
Now I have no problems with giving Niese that deal it makes a ton of sense just on it’s own…
The problem is the deal is more about TRADING Niese (which he has tried to do ever since he got here) and not about keeping Niese long term!
Which makes all that crap about Sandy’s reasoning for making this deal you stated exactly that….CRAP!
What young in his prime locked up player has Sandy traded in his GM history?
Canseco, Barfield, Peavy All were in thier prime!
The site is slow today for me, some plugin keeps crashing.
Anyway, Barfield is a horrible example if that is one of your top 3. I think he’s out of baseball now and after one year you can’t consider him in his prime.
Canseco? “Canseco had clearly fallen into disfavor in Oakland. He has been hurt this season, troubled by both a bad back and a sore shoulder. He was hitting .246 with 22 home runs and 72 runs batted in. He said he has lost 15 pounds and 40% of his power. Did the A’s think he was on an irrevocable slide? Or had they simply tired of his superstar act?”
Does that sound like a player in his prime? Of course Steroids helped put off that decline but they had to make some decisions and took McGwire and Terry Steinbach over Jose.
Peavy is your best example but that seems like it worked out too. Perhaps they knew something others didn’t.
It worked? How many WS wins were the result of those moves?
Are you saying they would have won a WS if they had not tried to make their team better?
Also, I guess none of Omar’s moves worked either right? How many WS did he win. Wow. LOL.
No I’m saying if they thought they were making thier team better they were WRONG!
Then I guess so was Omar and every GM of the Mets except for 2. Laughable. Caught again. Sorry. For someone so educated you sure do stick your foot in your mouth a lot.
But he DID make the team better than when he got it didn’t he?
Has Sandy?
Only took Omar a year!
What’s Sandy’s Excuse?
other than the obvious one, that Omar was handed an open checkbook when he arrived, and Sandy was handed a payroll that was to ohigh for the team to support?
Hey I am just going by your quote:
“It worked? How many WS wins were the result of those moves?”
Metsie: If I had to guess for starters it has to do with this statement being false
“Reyes who is entering his prime at 28″
I still am unclear as to why you think players enter their prime when they are older. It’s something we will never agree on, but Reyes is closer to past his prime than “starting” it. It’s MORE likely that last year was/will be his best year as a pro, and he will start to decline.
You can say whatever you want but you’re just spinning your wheels. STARTING a long term deal at 28/29 means you are getting paid for your declining years. You want players to get paid for their best/most healthy years… you do not want to pay them as father time steps in. Jose Reyes at age 33, 34 is more likely to NOT be worth his salary than say Jon Niese at age 29, 30.
Most baseball players in today’s game post steroids are NOT having their best years as they get older.
SO tell us all what you think are the PRIME YEARS Jessup because you seem to move the goal posts at will and depending on what day underwear you have on!
The widely accepted prime years are age 28-32!
Only your hero Bill James puts it at younger. 26-30!
Reyes is STILL in his prime even using your hero’s definition of it!
And here is something the other sabermetric god had to say about speedsters and leadfooters and aging…
http://www.tangotiger.net/SpeedLead.htm
Seems speedsters don’t age any faster than leadfooters and in fact play MORE games not less as you have relied on to trash resigning reyes!
Metsie, before I dive into the details of your post… can you answer me why you say things like “Only your hero Bill James puts it at younger. 26-30!”
I’ve never used Bill James on this site to back up any of my statements. I’ve never subscribed to anything James has written. I’ve never used advanced stats on this site other than WHIP and OPS (which are so basic). So tell me, how is Bill James my hero?
That’s a great question. So many of us get lumped into saber goons and never use saber stats.
I (as in ME) believe players are better when they are younger and more likely to be healthy. I believe a body breaks down when it gets older.
I believe when you say a player is in their “prime” you are talking about the time in which they are at the TOP of their game in both skill AND health.
Jose Bautista, Miguel Cabrera, Ryan Braun, Matt Kemp, Prince Fielder, Adrian Gonzalez, Joey Votto, Jacoby Ellsbury, Curtis Granderson, Troy Tulowitzki, Robinson Cano, Josh Hamilton, Jose Reyes, Hunter Pence — all of them were aged 26-30 in 2011, and ALL of them had more productive years than the best 32 year old hitter who was Aramis Ramirez… if you wanna use RBI then Victor Martinez was the best 32 year old with an incredible .850 OPS… and if you add him then I can also add Pedroia, Teixeria to my list.
I look at players aged 31-32 and I see 21 qualified hitters ranging from Matt Holliday to Jason Bartlett… and then I see the ages you ignore which is 26-27 and I see 34 hitters ranging from Miguel Cabrera to Robert Andino.
There are exceptions in every case. Nothing is black and white. But when it comes down to when a player will LIKELY be at his best (especially as a hitter), it is 26-30 years old. A 31, 32 year old hitter is likely NOT as good as he was when he was 26, 27. And he certainly is less likely to be healthy ESPECIALLY when he has prior injuries.
Prince Fielder is less likely to be injury prone at 32 because he’s missed almost no time due to injury. Not everybody is the same… but odds are you will be faster, stronger, healthier when you are younger rather than older.
That’s just me. If Bill James and I agree, awesome.
Stop it you uneducated b…. LOL.
All thats very nice except for one thing…
Reyes is 28 and won a batting title last year….
You claim he is PAST his prime though….
missed the point again . he is not past his prime now, but on a 6-7 year deal, you will still be paying him at 33/34/35
And Votto won’t?
Why bring Votto into it? The same standard would apply to him as Reyes only more so in that he got a 10 year deal.
Yeah it’s a stndard but only a PHANTOM standard isn’t it? One you moneyballers made up!
A) I never said Jose was PAST his prime. I believe he can play at his 2011 level for a max of 2 more years. I believe he won’t play that well, but its less likely he will do it at year 3, 4, 5 of the contract than years 1 and 2.
B) I’m not sure what Votto has to do with anything regarding me? Have I come out here and said I like the Votto deal? No. Votto is 28 and is signed for 12 years right? I think that is stupid, especially in the NL where a 36, 37, 38 year old 1B is going to be a clog on your roster. I didn’t look at the details of it but to me, I’d rather have a 23, 24, 25, 26 year old 1B than a 34, 35, 36, 37 year old 1B let alone a 36, 37, 38, 39 year old.
To me the Votto deal says “we won’t develop a 1B in the next 12 years” and that is a terrible message to send.
I am not even sure what about Jose’s career says he can ever perform up to 2011 levels again even if he is healthy. How do we know that wasn’t just a career year?
Yeah that pretty much sums up all of your prob;lems…
“I am not even sure…”
Yet it doesn’t stop you from acting like you are!
You have said his best years are behind him!
“It’s MORE likely that last year was/will be his best year as a pro, and he will start to decline. ”
Just today!
When you get fired for being too old and too expensive by some kid I wish I could be there to see the look on your face!
I REALLY do!
I know you have no intention of diving into the details of my post just trying to change the subject but I will play just this once today!
For someone who plays the “Who Me?” game better than anyone I make those assesments based on your past statements and argments…
No you don’t cite statistics often in fact you rarely offer any substantiation to your arguments Jst an awful lot of assumption that when it gets questioned gets a response to the tune of “Well Everybody knows what I said is true and if you don’t believe so then you must be CRAZY and I can’t help you!”
But in this case on so many occassions (more than I care to count) you have ALWAYS cited how IMPORTANT using SABERS was in regards to ANY team you deemed successful and a winner and how any team that does NOT use sabers would fail (this despite Philly and Yankees who only marginally look at Sabers but make decisions based on other things NOT saber!)
In any argument about metrics you have ALWAYS sided with the SaberRattlers, ALWAYS!
Your position on any player over 26 and about Team FA spending and Team Building is right in line (practically word for word) with MONEYBALL which is so Saber dependent on finding an obscure stat in the name of making a cheap team that might surprise because it found some metric that no one else looked for!
So you can cry your not a SaberRattler till your blue in the face, Say you disagree with Sabers all you want but every position you have taken since I know you favors Sabers!
No you don’t quote Bill James often you leave that to Xtreeme.
Sometimes I think you and him are the same guy since never have I ever seen you two disagree on ANYTHING!
Two Peas in the same Sabermetric pod!
You don’t need to use fancy stats I guess when you lead in the most important one: outspending the field by a huge margin!
I don’t know you should ask yourself who was the most winningest team in the past 20 years and ask how they did it?
Trolling over Excel Spreadsheets or trolling Rosters looking for great players they could steal?
the yankees? Yes, they did do that. Then outspent everyone else to make sure they bought plenty of stars too.
Not sure what you point is again.
The Point?
This concept that SPENDING hurt the team is ludicrous maybe?
You know the one Jessup, Xtreeme, Tag and sometimes you try to say once a week if not once a day?
They also did build their own core of young talent and locked them up long term or used them as trade pieces.
What is your basis for saying Alderson has been trying to trade Niese ever since he got here?
Is it something more substantial than some media reports or rumors?
Are you positive that Alderson initiated those discussions if they even existed at all?
If he did discuss Niese he obviously didn’t get offered enough to make a deal right? What does that tell you?
Lastly players best years are 24-31 by a huge margin over any other age grouping. some begin earlier, some extend later a few do both but by far and away 24-31 is the sweet spot.
He read it with his eyes… duh.
Maye if you tried reading as opposed to asking everyone else to learn things FOR you (you lazy uneducated bastard!) you might learn a few things along the way and not make such an A$$ of yourself so often!
LOL
“you lazy uneducated bastard!”
I think you do such a great job of making yourself look like a fool I don’t even need to. Why this site puts up with stuff like this I will never know but hey it makes for good prime time reading.
As for what I think was your point, I like many others on here provide you with facts all the time where as you just spout biased unresearched opinions and challenge others to disagree.
When you see the posts that are currently being moderated you will see who is the fool!
LOL, whatever you say there buddy. An educated non-bastard like yourself shouldn’t have to resort to that type of name calling. Of course when you stick your foot in your mouth and get proven wrong so many times, what else is left?
Never once has that happened but it’s nice for you to fantasize about your dreamt up victories isn’t it?
Yeah, Tejada discussion certainly helped your case yesterday. Speaking of his ability to not hit it on the ground and hit for power. But like I said, nothing beats today’s “It worked? How many WS wins were the result of those moves?”
LOL, way to disqualify 96 % of Mets history.
http://www.metstoday.com/7270/mets-rumors/mets-trade-rumor-of-the-day-jon-niese/
http://metsonline.com/mets-trade-rumors-teams-interested-in-niese-davis-pelfrey-others/
http://denver.sbnation.com/colorado-rockies/2011/12/17/2642523/mlb-hot-stove-trade-rumors-2011-jonathon-niese-seth-smith-rockies-mets
http://realdirtymets.com/2011/12/13/audio-jonathon-niese-talks-about-his-trade-rumors-among-other-things-with-wfans-joe-evan/
http://bronxbaseballdaily.com/2011/12/rumor-yankees-interested-in-mets-pitcher-jon-niese/
http://www.rantsports.com/new-york-mets/2011/12/07/new-york-mets-gauging-the-trade-market-for-jon-niese/
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/973707-mlb-trade-rumors-yanks-interested-in-mets-niese-a-history-of-subway-trades
http://macksmets.blogspot.com/2011/12/flash-mets-trade-rumor-sp-jon-niese.html
http://bronxbaseballdaily.com/2011/12/rumors-mets-will-trade-niese-if-the-package-is-right/
Yeah I’m just so wrong…
Now shut up and go read it with your own eyes!
Apparently the site moderates posts with too many links in them!
I broke them up for you!
LOL, like I don’t realize how many rumors there were about Sandy and Niese. Is he still here or is he not still here?
I wonder if that is the same type of reporting that lead to this?
“Earlier today, a trade rumor about Mets 1B Ike Davis created a brief commotion, before Andy Martino of the Daily News reported the rumor was untrue.”
“One #Mets official would be “surprised” if Niese is traded. Plenty of interest, but sounds more exploratory than final stages of deal.”
“Mets listening on Niese trade but still sounds like just talk.”
“#Mets have told teams will talk anyone but Wright and very active, working hard to get least 1 more trade done, maybe here (cont)”
Thanks for proving my point. You have absolutely nothing showing Sandy has been trying to get rid of Niese since he came.
AHHHHH SO you admit I didn’t make it up and ACTUALLY read it!
That makes your previous statements as USUAL….DEAD WRONG!
You got Schooled!
That is not what you said. You said Alderson only gave that deal to Niese to try and trade him.
Those rumors were already addressed before you linked to them. Once again, you are so quick just to say something, you don’t read what you are actually responding to and end up 2 steps behind everyone.
What Metsie has been able to prove is Alderson most likely has had his chance to get rid of Niese, maybe even a few times and yet…………………………………………
“Nuff said.
What I said has not been proven wrong has it Donal?
Won’t be until Sandy gets fired and Niese is still here or Niese finished out that contract!
Until then good luck talking cause no one is listening!
I know what I said and dion’t really care what YOU say!
No what I proved is Sandy was willing to listen to offers but was not getting his boatrload of Picks back because Niese wasn’t under contract long term and now if even if he wins the Cy Young this year will only get 5 Mil per for the next few years!
The other thing I proved is that you guys question me all the time to provide proof and when I do you all scurry to find a way to dismiss it which is why I don’t rn errands for you guys who NEVER provide proof of what you say such as the ASSUMPTION Sandy had no money to spend his first year despite a quote from him as recently as yesterday saying he DID and that No Trades were ever discussed despite the fact I gave you 10 links worth of stories on those discussions!
I’m tired of all your penny ante arguing tactics like demanding proof then running from it and then making up stuff but when YOU get asked to prove it you all Decline because you know you can;t!
I’m still waiting for you to answer my question Tag about who was the most successful GM since 86 out of the list of:
Harazin
McIlvane
Hunsicker
Duqette
Phillips and Minaya!
Keep running kiddies!
Whose wrong Now Teacher?
You Need a Mirror to see him!
So, all of those links either refer back to Sherman’s whisper of a rumor (the Mets were hearing offers) or were refuting said rumors.
Again, it was winter when writers have nothing to talk about. Niese wwas a valuable commodity on the Mets and several other pitchers like him had just been dealt. Baseless specualtion is not proof that they were looking to trade Niese.
In fact, they may have just been listening to other teams’ offers to figure out how much they should offer him.
but hey, you’re the same guy who thinks Minaya signed Beltran to be a fill in.
The fact that all of the links discuss how the Mets were listening on almost everyone shows what the goal was and the fact that he is still here shows that they were not blown away by any offer.
That being said I do appreciate the link to my blog. LOL.
So you knew there were stories (even posted one and called me crazy for saying Niese has been talked about in trades since Sandy got here….
And you wonder why you lose so many arguments just trying to make me sound wrong when I’m not!
Try these:
http://www.metstoday.com/7270/mets-rumors/mets-trade-rumor-of-the-day-jon-niese/
http://metsonline.com/mets-trade-rumors-teams-interested-in-niese-davis-pelfrey-others/
http://denver.sbnation.com/colorado-rockies/2011/12/17/2642523/mlb-hot-stove-trade-rumors-2011-jonathon-niese-seth-smith-rockies-mets
http://realdirtymets.com/2011/12/13/audio-jonathon-niese-talks-about-his-trade-rumors-among-other-things-with-wfans-joe-evan/
http://bronxbaseballdaily.com/2011/12/rumor-yankees-interested-in-mets-pitcher-jon-niese/
http://www.rantsports.com/new-york-mets/2011/12/07/new-york-mets-gauging-the-trade-market-for-jon-niese/
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/973707-mlb-trade-rumors-yanks-interested-in-mets-niese-a-history-of-subway-trades
http://macksmets.blogspot.com/2011/12/flash-mets-trade-rumor-sp-jon-niese.html
http://bronxbaseballdaily.com/2011/12/rumors-mets-will-trade-niese-if-the-package-is-right/
This franchise has not been successful getting the last years of really good players so we should continue to do the same thing? Sorry, ‘aint happening.
Alderson wasn’t brought in here to do things the way Harazin, Phillips and Minaya did.
The first thing those guys did was go big expensive free agent or salary dump and while that can improve results immediately it can’t be sustained especially if that continues to be the only option going forward because eventually your going run out of gas.
Personally I’d prefer to run out of gas before we take off rather than at 30,000 feet for a change.
Niese is guaranteed the same as Luis Castillo but as a LHP in his prime that we now have the option to keep for the next 7 years is a far better bet than a 32 year old 2nd basemen who needs surgery on both knees. Add in the fact that we would have been paying Niese about half that amount anyway in his arbitration years and your looking at a 12 M dollar investment to extend our ability to keep Niese through age 32 at a predetermined price if we would like to.
No guaranteed deal to a player on his last contract like so many of the guys we’ve brought here in the last 2 decades. Radical departure from the way the Wilpon’s prior GM’s have done things. 180 degrees the opposite, same as the draft. Obviously someone has gotten through to the Wilpon’s and decisions are being made for baseball reasons……………..finally.
Oh really then why are we doing that now tag and where is all the accusational calls of MONKEYBALL aimed at Sandy?
Torres and Haitrston are spring chickens?
Ramirez, Rauch, Bydak, Francisco, Carrasco are not precisly the thing you just lamented?
Torres and Hairston are place holders.
Ramirez, Rauch, Byrdek, Francisco and Carrasco are choices that help us win now and help us win later by being let go either in a trade or for supplemental draft choices.
Basically it’s buying time and buying to rent, the complete opposite of monkeyball.
Monkeyball is giving away your top draft choices or prospects to improve for 3 years and then get nothing when the guy leaves or retires.
I am not so sure on Ramirez. I think he is a guy that could be useful in the long haul. The guy is not that old and had 2 useful seasons for the Giants. He’s not very expensive and wouldn’t be surprised to see him re-signed.
So were Martinez, Beltran, Delgado, Castillo, Wagner, and Santana placeholders until Omar could rebuild the Minors with:
Davis, Duda, Murphy, Harvey, Familia, Kirk, Mejia, Havens, Flores et al…
But his PLACEHOLDERS managed to make a playoff and have three meaningful Septembers while they were holding the places!
“It worked? How many WS wins were the result of those moves?” LOL
Those guys aren’t place holders. They were all signed to long-term contracts. You think they signed Beltran to a 7 year contract as a place holder? Same with Johan? Those guys were not even drafted yet when Beltran and Pedro were signed. Who’s place were they holding?
Yep long term because you can’t draft a MiL system in less than 7 years!
So far Sandy has Wheeler and Nimmo….
How long will it take him to get as many guyds as Omar did and your putting your hopes into this year? Huh?
Teacher is getting schooled here bigtime!
Omar failed Metsie, by your own words:
“It worked? How many WS wins were the result of those moves?”
Besides, if you honestly think Betran was signed as a placeholder then there’s no need to discuss anyway.
Did he? Or did he get fired just as the plan was about to come to a completion?
Add Reyes and Beltran to this Roster and it has a Playoff shot if not this year then Next year when Harvey and Familia get here!
And you being the koolaid drinking Stooge of Sandy will give him the credit for all of it!
If that were the case why didn’t he extend Reyes instead of signing Bay? That would have made a lot more sense don’t you think? Why wouldn’t he have signed Beltran to an 8, 9 or 10 year contract? For that matter why sell 3 # 1 draft picks? Give away another for a 40 year old LFer?
That whole “Plan 2012″ thing doesn’t make any sense. What does make sense is every year it was plan “This Year.” That’s the same plan we’ve had every year for 15 straight seasons.
Minaya’s original deal was for 2005-2009. Considering how he only had 1 playoff run up until 2009 (and no more into his 4 year extension), wouldn’t that mean his “plan” wan’t that great?
Uhh Tag…he DID extend Reyes….Wright too or did you forget?
He extended them for less time than this mysterious plan.
Minaya did state a plan when he first arrived. He said the team would get younger and focus on speed and defense. Look at his tenure and tell me if you think he followed that plan.
Keep dreaming Dopey….
He extended them to last long enought to PRECISELY COINCIDE with the comuppance of Davis Duda Murphy with only a year away fro Harvey Familia Havens Kirk and the rest of his kiddies you will all try to credit Sandy with if he should not succeed!
As for making the team older well how was he supposed to make it yopunger after only three years of drafting?
Pretty Young now isn’t it?
If we discount all the players that were here when Sandy took over and just count the gys he has sent away and brought in…
Older or Younger?
Thats it for you tonite because I really have no time for the perpetually stupid!
Listening is not trying to get rid of a guy.
Two totally different things.
Sandy spent a bunch of draft choices on those guys?
Oh then how can it be the same thing?
Listening means INTERESTED in TRADING HIM!
If he wasn’t INTERESTED then he would not LISTEN!
Just as I will soon be doing here!
Clearly we have a huge difference of opinion on what constitutes a “bookmark,” in fact we’re so far on opposite sides of the spectrum it would pointless to discuss it any further.
I was really hoping you had more insight to back up your statement about Alderson “trying to trade Niese as soon as he got here.” Those links are just all the same rumour, innuendo and unsubstantiated trade talk. None of it proves Alderson has been trying to trade Niese as soon as he got here, in fact it really kind of proves the opposite.
If he had WANTED to trade him he probably could have, a number of times and yet he’s still here.
What does that tell you?
Well lets start off by saying I have proof there was trade talk do you have any that says Sandy wasn’t interested in listening?
So far you got Zilch and I have about 10 links so consider is circumstantial and rmour but bottom line I have something tangible and you do not!
As for a Bookmark being defined your definition is tailored specifically to trash anyone not named Sandy not based on any defined definition you have stated previously!
And today you came closest to defining what you didn’t like (paying old guys for thier last years) and only NOW that it was pointed out that what you blame Omar for is what Sandy is doing in SPADES!
Sorry but you should be more careful about consistency from post to post and not this haphazard say anything as if no previous comments are remembered because they ARE remembered!
And will be applied to Sandy as quickly as they were applied to Omar!
One thing about Omar being able to do things because he was handed a blank check – that is true. But I do question Sandy being handed no check at all.
Up until a few weeks ago I was in Sandy’s corner on this. That his hands were tied. Now with statements coming out about how over-exaggerated the Mets financial problems were made to appear, that there was and is money that could have been spent, that suddenly being unable to seek out more expensive free agents was not hindered because the Mets lost $70 million last season…., I really do not know what to believe.
So the question remains – did Sandy have more money to spend or not? If he didn’t, and all that is being said now is for more public relations hype and spin, then we don’t know what he would have done under different circumstances. But if the organization’s latest statements are to believed, that means while the check wasn’t a blank one, Sandy was indeed given one.
This is the problem when officials change their stories all the time – a loss in credibility.
I think it’s obviously right in the gray area. Could he have spent a little more? Most likely. Could he have signed Reyes at the basic framework of the offer proposed? Most likely. Could they have added some payroll here or there last year at the deadline? Most likely. Could they have wasted some money on older has beens this off-season and not allowed the Mets to see what guys like Duda, Murphy or Thole could do? Maybe?
Again, it goes back to before. Just because you saved 20.00 doesn’t mean you need to waste it all in the Dollar Tree.
Alderson’s first off season he basically didn’t get to spend any money having inherited a large chunk of expensive players either on the shelf or useless including Castillo, Perez, Santana, Bay, GMJ and Igarashi.
Minaya’s first off season he resigned Benson (3/22 M) Signed Pedro 4/54 M, Beltran 7/118 M and offered Delgado 4/60. That’s 250 M in present and future commitments Minaya was able to offer and 200 M he actually did commit to.
The following year he signed Wagner 4/44 M and traded for Delgado’s remaining 3/45 and added La Duca’s salary for good measure. Then it was Schowenweiss 3/10 M, Alou 7.5 M, K-Rod’s 3/36 + vesting option followed by Bay’s 4/66 M and HIS vesting option.
Perhaps we shouldn’t be so concerned over whether Alderson could have thrown a few extra nickles around, no one outside of the Organization could have anyway of knowing one way or another and I wouldn’t count public statements that disavow ownership’s involvement in any of the low budget signings as being 100% honest because after all, how many employees publicly pin the blame on their boss in any industry?
Again, the best way to avoid being bamboozled is to watch with your eyes and see what is going on rather than hanging on every word Alderson, Depodesta, Wilpon or anyone else utters or doesn’t utter.
Don’t forget either a GM’s main function is not PR work and he’s unlikely to be publically disclosing anything that could cause a ****storm or tip his hand in any other way either.
More Assumption taken as fact and I guess you didn’t hear his pre-Opening day Interview where he said he had money to spend but didn’t because he thought the team was out of it 7.5 games out.
If he had it then he had it in the offseason and did nothing!
Not because he had no money but because he wasn’t interested in improving the team!
“More Assumption taken as fact”
Like Alderson has been trying to trade Niese since day 1?
” I guess you didn’t hear his pre-Opening day Interview where he said he had money to spend but didn’t because he thought the team was out of it 7.5 games out.”
And in 6th place. You keep leaving that part out, even though several people have pointed it out. Why? Do you not believe the fact that 5 other teams were closer than the Mets should bear any weight on the decision?
“If he had it then he had it in the offseason and did nothing!
Not because he had no money but because he wasn’t interested in improving the team!”
Or because he didn’t see any big money deals that would be beneficial to the Mets within the framework he has set up.
No, you’re right. It makes far more sense that Bud Selig sent a guy to the biggest market in the world to intentionally keep the team a laughing stock. After all, why would baseball want 2 competitive teams in New York?
Yep and he also said frm the get go he would be willing to trade ANYONE!
NO ONE was untouchable…
Niese is included in that NO ONE you know!
“And in 6th place. ”
We were in 3rd place in the NL East at the time…
More misdiection from the “Nothing up my sleeve (or in my brain) presto” crowd!
We were 7th in the Wild Card. Being 3rd in the NL East (1/2 a game ahead of Wash) would imply that your of the opinion that we could have caught Philly (11.0 GB) Is that your opinion?
If not then we had 6 teams to pass for a post season birth, being 3rd in the NL East is not relevant.
The way I see it we could have been stupid, naive and gullible like we were in 2004 and trade Harvey, keep Beltran and K-Rod, finish 3rd or 4th in the Wild Card and now have two less top prospects than we do now. That would place us last in the Majors in that Dept and with everyone locking up their good young players till there already past their prime leave us exactly where?
Last place baby, for a long time to come.
Hey even if we had won the Wild Card a post season rotation of Dickey, Pelfrey, Capuano and Gee would have taken us pretty far don’t you think?
Please.
Director: We need more smoke to hide the fact we have a bIg Ugly Foam Monster attacking the Scream Queen and more smoke is needed to sell it!
Tell me something…
10 Teams ahead of you but your only 3 games out of the Wildcard…. No Chance?
How many teams are ahead of you is irrelevant you guys keep trotting out that Foam Monster hoping it will convince someone and when it doesn’t work just try and blow more smoke to sell it!
ONLY THING that matters is how many games behind you areand how many games you have left to make it up!
When you have 60 games and only 6.5 games to make up you have just as much chance of making it as everyone who is ahead of you!
And nothing you do or say is going to convince anyone who isn’t already SandyWashed in the first place!
Metsi is correct to point out the hypocrisy which I have been contesting all along does away with the credibility of anything said publicly – even the truth. Doesn’t matter if the general manager’s job does not include public relations – Sandy was the spokesperson for the Mets last summer, not the Wilpons, not Katz, not Jay Horwitz. He was the one who made the statements and did the interviews.
Sandy said he didn’t spend because we were out of it. Does that mean he had money to spend as he was also relieving the Wilpons of the onus of a portion of those contracts and the impending bonus? Well, the day after he dumped Carlos Beltran and got Zach Wheeler – July 29th – the Mets were still only 6 1/2 games out in the wild card and six back in the loss column. During the weeks leading up to those deals with Milwaukee and San Francisco, and while the Mets were climbing, why wasn’t he also putting as much effort into getting some players as he was trying to get rid of some? He said he had the money. Then why didn’t he use it to at least, in some part, try to help the team replace the players he had lost and stay in the hunt?
By the time we faced the wildcard leading Atlanta Braves, just a week later on August 5th, we were nine and a half games out and nine in the loss side and indeed out of it. But who put us there?
If there was no money to spend (or not to be spent due to the pending civil suit) then the answer is ownership. If there was money to spend, then the answer lays with the general manager.
One thing we were told that was not the truth. That some of the money freed up from Castillo, Perez, Beltran, KRod and Reyes would be re-invested into the roster and be used in a better way by spreading it around instead of focusing it on one or two players. As we know, that never happened. Yes, it might have begun with the Niese contract but that was four months after Reyes signed with Miami and when Sandy had all the time in the world to pursue other free agents. Rauch and Francisco were not the two best out there. And if he was happy with the way Capuano had pitched, why not have signed him to a two year contract being the state of our starting pitching?
Saying he had the money to spend but didn’t because we were out of it doesn’t seem plausible for again, while looking to dump KRod and Beltran, the G.M. could have also looked for ways to at least take up a part of the slack, even if only as a rental. 6-1/2 games out, and only six in the loss column, with a three game series against the wild card leaders coming up in a week is certainly not the time to say the team was already out of it. He could have obtained players by the trade deadline as well as ridding himself of them.
No, too many holes in the oft changing stories we are being told to believe anything.
Excellent post and very plausible. I wonder if we’ll ever find out if he really did not try his best to compete last off season. I would love somebody in the mainstream media to get into that with him, i wonder how Sandy would feel being interviewed by somebody playing devil’s advocate. The closest I ever saw any mainstream media come to that was with Joe and Evan the other day and, imo, Sandy came across quite defensive. There was a mix of humor and defensiveness and often it’s hard to tell the difference between the two, and he definitely bordered on outright arrogance that day too.
I don’t know that you can look at each and every move and think that it stands completely on it’s own even though that’s the way things have been here for a long time.
If someone wants to believe that Alderson purposely screwed the Franchise out of a playoff spot just in order to save a couple of quid I don’t know what to say other than I disagree 100%.
On the day K-Rod was traded we were 7.5 GB with 6 teams ahead of us in the Wild Card hunt and all 6 of those teams having two routed to the post season while we had only one. We were also one game over .500 at the time.
Had Alderson known that Atlanta might collapse maybe he plays it differently but with the information available at the moment K-rod was traded we had the least chance of the playoffs of anyone we were “chasing” and by far the toughest remaining schedule as well.
Making the tough unpopular decision is sometimes necessary and that’s probably why it hasn’t been done around here since about 1994 and what do we have to show for that?
3 post season appearances and 9 seasons under .500 since the last time we were sellers in July.
Imagine how much worse it might have been if we didn’t have the Leagues largest payroll.
yeah thats the problem…You Don’t Know!
But you sure try and tell us that you DO with your last few posts!
Bitching about losing Drabeck and Wendal Farley!
Oh God how did we let THEM get away to get Wagner and K-Rod?
What a bad deal right?
Again your assuming that we would have selected the same players that Philly or SF did which is quite an assumption to make.
Secondly Drabek was the major part of the Phillies getting Halliday which means we may have had a shot at getting him had we drafted Drabek especially if Toronto liked our 2007 #1 choice we gave up because we signed Alou 1 week before the Giants even had to offer arbitration.
In other words we could very likely have gotten Alou and kept our #1 draft choice used that along with Drabek and say Flores and had a good shot at trading for Halliday.
Hey you want to make assumptions I will too and mine is a hell of a lot more realistic than yours considering that you insist we would have taken the exact same players Gillick and Sabean did.
No I’m assuming thats what they would have taken in trade for the guys we got!
Since thats what they took for losing the guys we got!
All you got here is hindsight not insight!
You assume there was someone better there…
But apparently the teams who HAD the picks didn’t think so!
It wasn’t a trade though so your assumption is way off base.
Secondly there is simply no way that anyone could say who we would have taken with those picks. Probably the only person who could say is Rudy Terasses.
One thing we can assume is that SF doesn’t offer Alou arbitration if we waited one more week to sign him as they were hot and heavy for Zito that off season and had just fired Alou’s father.
That means we could have had Alou AND the #1 draft choice AND had an extra roster spot to protect Jesus Flores who was our only credible catching prospect at the time above rookie league.
“Secondly there is simply no way that anyone could say who we would have taken with those picks”
Not true at all….Omar knew who we would have taken with that pick and by looking at the talent that was there in a VERY WEAK draft and estimating what it would cost to sign a 1st round pick that wasn’t worth taking made the decision to TRADE that pick to get someone who WAS worth the money and was a KNOWN good Quantity at the time!
Just because YOU don’t know who we would have taken with the pick (and have never put forth a name for the pick either other than some more hindsight suggestion of a player no one else thought was 1st round worthy at the time,) doesn’t mean that Omar (being Tarrasco’s Boss) had no clue what was there on our list of 1st round level players and decided none of them were worth taking and paying what would likely have been overslot for guys who have yet to show they are MLB players at all!
In fact thier performance makes Omar look SMART because he got something for those picks that no one else got something for!
They would have been just as much wasted if we kept them and more wasted than what we got for them!
And to your rant about Halladay well he cost THREE 1st round picks far more than any player Minaya paid for his guys!
And according to you they are such GREAT SMART Drafters while we suck which makes thier giving away 1st rounders that much worse!
But the truth is you have no clue what was key to Toronto making that trade, It could just as easily been the Salary relief they were most interested in!
Your just guessing!
Three # 1′s Drabek (drafted with our pick) d’Anaurd (could have been drafted with the pick we would have gotten for letting Valentin go FA) and the pick we shipped out for Alou.
There you go. You want to make to wild assumptions, here’s one that’s not nearly as wild as comparing draft picks obtained by losing guys to making trades or assuming we would have drafted the same exact guy someone else did had we kept the pick.
So name the other two #1 your giving away because Drabek obviously was not the CENTERPIECE was he?
THREE #1′s you say well name the other two #1′s you were giving away…
Who are the other two you were going to give away to get him?
Harvey? Davis? or Havens?
And if you try an add some other names to that list you must first prove they would have been acceptable to Toronto or your just playing FantasyLand!
The pick we could have taken back for letting Valentin go and the pick we kept by waiting one week to sign Alou plus you could have thrown Holt and/or Fern in there as well.
More Assumption that they would have taken those guys instead of what they got….
Name the players taken with those Picks Tag….
Then show me Toronto would have made the same trade for them…
Metsie it’s impossible to say which offer Toronto would have taken and which players they would have preferred and it was up to Halliday too since he was a trade and sign but the point remains that having kept or taken back the picks would have at least afforded us SOMETHING to offer and it is true that the key piece (and Drabek was the key piece) was taken by Phillie with our draft choice.
I also don’t understand why you wouldn’t have at least wanted to wait a week to sign Alou and SEEN if we could have kept our #1 pick and kept Flores on the roster as well.
I also can’t understand your seeming non chalance over selling the supplemetary round selection Barajas would have left us for cash.
That’s how you build up trade opportunities.
Then it is also impossible to say Drabeck was the key Piece in that trade or not having him cost us Halladay now isn’t it?
SO bottomline the pick was nothing more than a trade of Farley and or Drabek for the guy we got for the pick!
You want to place more importance on losing that pick you had better find some value from one of those two guys that you can prove!
Untrue, but hey at least we had Moises for 103 games over two years. That was a big help in bridging Plan 2006-2008 to plan 2012.
It is so true! You admitted you have no clue you would have gotten Halladay if you took Drabeck!
As for Alou, thats 103 more games than Fairley and Drabeck have played COMBINED!
Just explain why Sandy didn’t at least give the team a shot to try and see if it could catch up with Atlanta? He had worked hard on dumping both KRod and Beltran so 1) a portion of their high salaries and bonus were not at issue, 2) he had already gotten Zach Wheeler so we got that hot prospect and 3) a good general manager is supposed to be able to work on multiple deals at the same time – especially with a computer doing so much of the research for him.
For a general manager to suggest that the team was either out of it, playing above it’s heads, had too many clubs in front of them to climb or for any other reason would give up on his players means he is in the wrong business and any front office official with that type of attitude and little appreciation of the way the team is unexpectedly performing on the field should be fired on the spot.
So one thing I will NOT believe for a moment is that Sandy actually was trying to screw the team, no matter that I think he should stick to legalities and finances and don’t believe his dependence upon sabremetrics can make up for his and those he has hired lack of baseball knowledge. That is a separate issue. I still think he and the owners were doing what was best for them regarding either the financial losses they are now claiming were over-exaggerated, the upcoming civil suit, or both. And if that meant letting 2011 go down the drain even just for appearances sake, so be it. Though as a fan I think that is reprehensible behavior from the cold business and financial perspective, it makes sense. And believe it or not, despite all that I feel about them, I can actually envision Fred and Jeff hating to see the season go down the tubes regardless, knowing how much they really do want to win.
But don’t for a minute think the moves made the past year and a half were sincere attempts at improving the team, either. Nor is the rebuilding spin. The moves were reactions to deal with the sudden and unusual circumstances facing the Wilpons and their desire to come out of it as little scathed as possible. Perhaps if you or I were in the same situation we would have handled it no differently. But let’s see it for what it was with no more talk about what happened actually having to do with the team at hand.
Joey, You do realize that there would have been more required than just money to get someone at the trade deadline right?
Philly got Pense and gave up the equivalent of Familia and Puello. Atlanta got Bourne and gave up the equivalent of Gorski and Cohoon. Is that what you were looking for us to do?
St. Louis gave up Rasmus, that would have been similar to us trading Tejada.
Who and for what would you have been willing to trade or wanted to receive back in order to spend that money held back?
I can think of two offhand that could have been acquired at the trade deadline without breaking the bank or the minor league system
Koji Uehara, a relief pitcher who was traded for two not highly rated prospects.
Juan Rivera, an outfielder who was sold for cash only.
Not in the class of KRod or Beltran but definitely would have helped the team as rentals . And even if it only meant finishing with a modest winning record with 83 or 84 wins, that would have been enough to settle the nay sayers about this team going nowhere.
And who knows which other players might have been available had Sandy sent out feelers. The point is no feelers were sent out.
Not really sure where Juan Rivera would have fit into our lineup with Duda and Bay in the corner OF. Maybe as a platoon guy for Duda and RH pinch hitter and owed 4 M in 2012. That doesn’t seem worthwhile.
Uehara for the pen? I suppose he wouldn’t have killed us there but again at 4 M for 2012? Plus I wouldn’t say Tommy Hunter (who he was traded for) is nothing.
Both these guys would have had to remain on the 40 main roster or be cut and paid a total of 8 M or they would have cost us the opportunity to protect two of our slower developing prospects thus exposing them to the rule 5 draft.
Whatever minimal use we could have gotten out of either of these guys wasn’t worth losing one or two of the prospects Minaya brought in here. Remember how we lost Jesus Flores?
Neither of them were likely to make enough of a difference to be worth the money or more importantly the roster spots.
Both of those guys together wouldn’t have combined to help us win an additional 6 or 7 games over an entire season let alone over the last two months anyway in my opinion and I firmly believe it’s high time Met Fans set their sights a little higher than winning 83 or 84 games or are satisfied with just playing meaningful games in September.
To either lose 8 M owed to Rivera and Uehara by cutting them both in November and paying them off for their contractually owed 2012 salaries OR have two less roster spots to protect younger prospects in the rule 5 draft wouldn’t have made a huge amount of sense.
What would have made a lot of sense is to keep Barajas in 2010 instead of selling him for cash at the end of August and having an additional supplementary round draft choice in a draft that was already well known to be one of the top draft in the last 25 years.
As it turns out Barajas would have garnered a pick somewhere around #51 where the NYY selected Dante Bichette Jr and slightly in front of top catching prospect Austin Hedges who went at # 54.
Barajas wasn’t even sold to save salary since he was only making 500 K for the entire season. He was sold for whatever the Dodgers paid the Mets and to save having to sign an early round draft choice and that’s just stupid.
Where do people think the best players in baseball come from? News flash, they come from the draft or international free agency at the rate of 99.9% and the best one’s of all come from the first couple of rounds and when they do make it they provide solutions for you for 6-10 years at a time and their lower paycheck supports the ability to bring in a higher salaried player and their here during their prime as opposed to their decline.
And how can anyone outside the organization state with any authority that “no feelers were sent out?”
The fact is that no matter how much some of us fans would like to be kept in the loop that has never happened and will never happen.
The Fans will simply never be privy to anything more than a handful of leaks, rumors and innundo and have no idea what was or was not discussed.
Really what was required to Get K-Rod pray tell?
Why is it always US who has to give away good players but never get anything back?
You mean like the aforementioned Wagner and the TWO #1 picks that went along with him for Chris Carter? As if we didn’t already have enough 1B/LF/DH types here.
Or Barajas and the supplemental round pick that went with him that was sold in late August 2010 for cash?
hmm is that anything like the Two 1st rounders we are going to get for Reyes?
As for taking OFers Tell me Once Kirk gets here and Flores is converted to OF where the hell does Nimmo play?
We took 5 consecutive CFs in last year draft…We going to play all of them?
We failed to sign a slew of them…Where is your Angst there Tag?
Is it not here yet because your method of finding mistakes (Hindsight) is not available to you yet?
Most OFers that get drafted are CFers since they are the best OFers on their college or HS teams but that doesn’t mean their all going to stick in CF.
C’mon Metsie, you should know that by now.
Where are they going to play? They’ll sort themselves out like prospects always do. Some will fall by the wayside, others may be traded some will become corner OFer’s and others may become 4th and 5th OFer’s.
The only thing that can be determined at the time of a draft is intent and philosophy. Actual results take years even for people in the business let alone amateurs like us.
Clearly though not giving away or failing to take back #1 draft choices like we did with Valentin, Alou, Wagner, Barajas didn’t help us and keeping those picks or taking them back would at least have given us a chance either in our lineup down the road or in a trade.
As everyone knows the most important requirement for obtaining K-Rod was the ability to avoid having him close games because of that crazy option.
Secondly it wouldn’t have made any sense for a non contender to bid on him so the entire pool of candidates was extremely limited to those teams both in contention who already had a closer.
That was what was required to get K-Rod.
more Smoke, More Smoke I can see the seems on the rubber Monster!
The only smoke is coming out of your ***.
No one was trading for that crazy vesting option without the ability to keep it from vesting and the need for a set up guy.
That’s as clear as the smoke billowing out of your ***.
More Smoke More Smoke!!!
As if we had ZERO opportunity to negotiate away the vesting option…
Show proof that says K-Rod outright REFUSED to do so…I got a link bookmarked to the contrary!
http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2011-05-25/reportk-rod-willing-to-waive-vesting-option
Yes for another 3/36 M he’ll waive it.
With Milwaukee and it having no chance to vest it was worthless and he sold it for 500 G’s and no extension because he had no leverage and wanted to be marketed as a closer. That wasn’t a problem for him when he was here. He had the players union to protect that situation, with the Brewers he didn’t and you know that.
“Yes for another 3/36 M he’ll waive it”
Is that what he said in my link?
Didn’t see that you got some proof that shows what it would have teken for US to get him to drop the Option?
If not again your just speculating because your other speculation has no backing unless you speculate on speculation based on speculations!
On the baseball side, when feelers are put out, so many usually surface through leaks to the media. How often do we hear, for example, Sports Illustrated’s John Heyman report this player or that is looking to be moved, or that talks between this club and this club are going on and that talks between this and that one stalled because one demanded a player the other wasn’t willing to part with. It is also Heyman’s responsibility to check out the credibility of those sources before making them public.
Now to real situation at hand – the Met financial situation, once claimed by Sandy as dour and now being claimed as having been over-exaggerated by the media.
The season was being sacrificed for what now appear to be dubious financial reasons. The Mets “lost” $70 million last season and could not afford the $17 million bonus yet Fred Wilpon boasts that the $138 million (or whatever the exact figure was) settlement was a victory? SNY has nothing to do with the Mets finances yet minority shares were simply transfered from one Wilpon holding (SNY) to another (Mets) and the two loans were all paid up? Why was that not done all along instead of borrowing money from MLB and taking out a bridge loan? And SNY not being a part of any minority ownership deal after all that has been written about sports franchises making their big money through owning their own television networks? Sounds like they made investors an offer they could easily refuse. Few were going to invest that type of money and be denied the benefits of the television package.
Those are just observations from a layman’s perspective. But it is obvious the public was being given a con game one way or another.
But the bottom line is that it doesn’t matter what con game we were given or if the Mets were really on the path to bankruptcy or the financial death of the ownership had been greatly exaggerated. Incredibly large sums of money, way more than the roster, were as stake due to reasons that had nothing to do with the internal operations of the team but that were nonetheless affected by circumstances outside of it.
That is what led up to the 2011winter bargain basement signings that proved to be a disaster, the releases of Takahashi and Felicano, sending off our ace closer, top hitter packing when six out in the loss column and then not trying to retain an all-star shortstop in his prime. Nothing more.
I will agree from a financial and business perspective, ownership might not have had any other choice in order to retain their holdings. But these moves cannot be talked about in terms of baseball. At least Billy Beane has been honest – he can’t afford to keep his young players and hopes that league approving the A’s to move to San Jose will alleviate this problem in the future. He is not giving us any song and dance about “rebuilding”.
But again Joey your suggestion that we should have traded for Juan Rivera or Koji Uehara would have cost us 8 M in salary this year AND kept us from protecting two of our prospects on the 40 Man roster from rule 5 poachers last December.
I fail to see how that would have helped us in the long run and even in the short term. Rivera’s 34 and Uehara is 37. Rivera could have been a RH pinch hitter and back up corner OFer or taken AB’s away from Duda but he wouldn’t be helping us in CF and I’m not convinced Uehara would have been a wise choice for us going forward either.
Takahashi wanted a multi year committment and I liked him. Thought he was a worthwhile part of a 12 man pitching staff but our season didn’t hinge on whether we resigned Taka or not and as for Feliciano you would have preferred we signed him?
That’s 3 of Omar’s prospects now that you have exposed to rule 5 poachers because he wanted (and got) a multi year committment too. Plus we don’t have Michael Fulmer in our system either who we drafted with the pick we got for losing Pedro.
That’s 4 prospects out of the system plus whatever we had to trade for Rivera and Uehara and for guys ranging in age from 34-38 years old. That doesn’t seem to make any sense does it?
You do realize that Pedro didn’t pitch in 2011 right? So even when Alderson makes the right call it’s reason to complain but no problem with selling Barajas for cash 5 weeks before he turns into a supplementary round pick huh?
I don’t know, that just seems like more of the same old, same old that has produced 3 post season appearances in the last 23 years.
I’m also not convinced that all “feelers” are duly passed on to Heyman either but I can’t say they aren’t so perhaps your right that Alderson didn’t put any out.
“AND kept us from protecting two of our prospects on the 40 Man roster from rule 5 poachers last December”
More bull…
Could have unprotected Carrasco and Martinez at the time since they eventually dumped F-Mart anyway and taking Carrasco would be doing us a favor!
Carrasco could have and should have been dumped but keeping Fern allowed us to see if he could make it through Winter ball before making a decision. As it turns out he didn’t. I’d have preferred to keep him one more year anyway but at least we had the chance to see if he could make it onto the field.
T,
I wasn’t suggesting anything – I raised those two names only in response to your question about who was available that would not cost us in money and prospects. You asked who was out there, remember? Regarding Pedro, if one wants to pursue the point that he didn’t pitch at all in 2011 then the same has to be said about Sandy having signed Chris Young too.
The obvious fact is that the moves made the past 16 months have little to do with putting together a competitive team as they are the owners trying to either retain their holdings or avoid tremendous financial losses due to legal litigation. These are moves made by organizations that don’t have money.
They must be looked at it in these terms. For the wealth involved in owning a major league baseball club in the New York market, the combined salaries of Perez and Castillo would not have broken the bank. Even when the Mets got Gary Matthews, Jr. in 2010, they did not pay one penny for his contract – that was consumed by the team we got him from. But with the loss of a half billion dollars, the sudden stoppage of dividends coming from Madoff, the loans taken out based on having that revenue continuing in, compounded by the civil suit – that could easily break the bank of that same ownership. The threat was real – the situation, financially, was on rocky ground.
That is why, unlike other organizations, the Mets did not bolster their team during the 2010/11 off-season. That is why teams in contention do not get rid of their closer and top hitter like we did. That is why they don’t simply tell an all-star shortstop to walk. This is the real world and this is what happened.
No, an organization whose priority is fielding the best club it could, or at least using the season as a stepping stone for the future, does not make the moves the Mets made since early November of 2010 – unless there were other reasons that caused them to do so.
T, you do know your baseball. Your arguments about players and if they would help or not and worth getting is admirable. But to talk about the specific actions taken by the Mets – not hypothetical but in terms of what actually were done – in terms of baseball – totally ignores the situation at hand.
And finally, for those who argue that the Mets had too many obstacles to overcome to have a realistic shot at the wild card, just remember where St. Louis was the same day (July 29) when the Mets were 6-1/2 games out and six in the loss column: 5-1/2 games and five in the loss column with one less team ahead of them in the wildcard standings. Does one game separate a contender from one who is then out of it?
Joey,
I’ve been following the Mets for almost as long as you have. Repect to you for being one of the originals but one thing I’ve learned to do with this team is to watch what they do, not have it spun on me like they do with the media and it’s very obvious what’s going on here.
It’s a 3 year rebuild and that’s the deal. You can like it or hate it, doesn’t matter. They can call it whatever they want to but it’s been long overdue here and is the only way we’re ever going to win.
Eliminating the PR and spin allows you to see what it is for yourself and would you have wanted to have a couple more of Minaya’s prospects lost in order to be marginally better during the rebuild? Why? That only means it will take longer.
The NYY broke it down after 8 consecutive non post season years and it took them 5 more to get it built up. Is that what you want?
With the volume of prospects in the system the odds are somewhere in there are 8 solid guys and a couple of cornerstones but which one’s? Losing a future Amos Otis or getting off a future Ryan or Singleton because we moved too fast before the new FO could even properly evaluate what they inherited would be crippling to our efforts at ever getting a fully competent and coherent 25 man roster with manageable options in AAA.
The plan is to let the cream rise, add to it with quality and quantity and live with guys on predominately 1 year deals that A) could hold the fort and B) could be recycled into something worthwhile for the future.
Take all 3 sources, what he inherited, what he brings in and what he recycles guys into and that will form a real team as soon as 2014 but it will last a lot longer than a couple of years and allow a more targeted approach that has to be more fruitful than the shotgun approach we’ve been employing for 15 years now.
Obtaining the odd Wild Card every decade or so is no way to run a baseball team and either is cheaping out on the draft and selling draft picks for cash or to save the signing bonus. That has no place in NY either and turning #1 draft choices into salary dumps every year is how we got where we are in the first place.
Close your ears to what they say, it’s all BS and has been every since the days of “the worst team money could buy Pt. 1″ Even Metsie indicated he would be patient because the old approach wasn’t working out so well. None of us are happy about it but we didn’t get here in just one year and it can’t all be fixed with the snap of a finger.
Yankee fans probably weren’t over the moon during the Stump Merrill years but I don’t see any complaints now a days do you? Their slowdown under Gene Michael is what started their current run of 15 post seasons in 16 years and they started off with a lot less than we have.
The Cardinals were 1.5 games out of 1st place in the Central and 6 games above .500. The last time they were below .500 was April 20 when they were 8-9. 2 different teams Mets fought just to be .500 all season while the Cardinals were barely ever any worse than .500.
It is a tretch to try and compare the 2 as similar based on wildcard standings on July 29 2011.
True MNJ,
Not a very good comp at all between us and the Cards in late July 2011. A better comp would have been Pittsburgh or maybe even Washington.
Wouldn’t have favored our chances even if we were in it with Pelfrey, Dickey, Capuano and Gee down the stretch and Niese fading and then hurt, Davis out, Reyes and Murphy going down, that pen w/o K-Rod, nothing available in AAA above the Schwinden, Batista, Stinson, variety.
Not exactly Berkman, Pujols, Holliday, Molina, Freize in the middle of the lineup either.
and 10.5 games back a month later.
If you guys stopped focusing on making excuses for Sandy to quit you might stop long enough to see 7.5 games out of the Wildcard in July is as much in it as 10.5 games out at the end of August is….Maybe even MORE in it!
No matter HOW MANY teams are in front of you at the time!
It’s no different than being 10th in the Wildcard but only 3 games out!
Because it’s all based on how many GAMES you are out of being the leader not how many teams because you don’t have to BEAT all 10 teams to make up 3 games!
We didn’t need to beat 6 teams to make up 6 games either!
So all this circle jerking is just that more circle jerking trying to defend a guy who QUIT on the season despite his now saying he had money to make us better and got pretty much squat except for some guy we won’t see for 3 years!
Hi T,
Naming yourself after our favorite center fielder, I kind of figured you were not so much younger than me
But we will always disagree about the motives behind the decisions past 2010. When one states their immediate goal is to reduce payroll by $30 million – not over a period of one or two seasons but almost immediately – that about says it all. And no general manager ever throws in the towel that stage of the season for baseball reasons and implies that he thinks the team is not good enough to continue playing so well. Also, if I remember, St. Louis made a series of trades at the deadline in order to improve themselves.
No what was done in Flushing is just not done unless there are mitigating circumstances beyond the scope of baseball – and that is my only contention. The only other time I saw something like this occur was the Wednesday Night Massacre back in 1977 and only Joe Torre went on record saying it was a good move by the Mets for rebuilding purposes and obtaining four good players for one superstar who played only once every four days.
Hi Joey,
Yeah I guess my handle gave me away.
Not sure of all the details or how it played out but the White Sox sold and regrouped one year just 4 GB back with only one team to catch, then won it all the next year. Honestly not sure how much if at all the two things were connected but that’s what Kenny Williams did, got fried for it too.
St. Louis had a bluechipper under team control making league minimum (a very attractive mix) they wanted to trade and got some pieces that made a big difference in their season no doubt. The Cards also got a supplemental pick for Dotel and came close with Jackson so it wasn’t all about subtracting young talent, it also had the element of adding some of it back as well. Who would you suggest we had shipped over to get Jackson and Dotel? I’d say it would have cost Familia and Flores. You make that deal? I don’t. Am I off base here? Maybe, what do you think would be a comparable offer for what the Cards gave up?
The Cards were also very much in the running for the Division too though, we weren’t so right away their chances were twice what our were and at the time of the deal were just 2.5 GB of the Division with only one team to catch, not 6.5 GB with 6 teams to catch for the Wild Card.
Totally different situation.
As for Torre? What did I just say? Never listen to them, just watch what they do.
Really Joe Torre defending trading Seaver. Ah well there’s really no hope any of them will shoot straight especially in NY where we’ve heard it all, that’s why I don’t even listen I just watch. It’s a lot clearer that way and hey, it’s not like we winning consistently with signing other teams All Stars and backing them up with crud and crap.
3 post seasons in 23 years? Leagues largest payroll. Time for something new, actually high time and over due.
I can’t believe this is still a topic here. We were not in the same league as St Louis last year. If their star players weren’t hurt during the middle part of the year they would’ve stayed with Milwaukee all year long. How can you look at our team they way it was constructed and think they could make a legit run at the wildcard when they couldn’t get above 500 for more than a few days. Get a game over, lose 3 straight. Get 3 games over, lose 5 straight, etc… That team wasn’t good enough. No Johan, Ike gone since May, Wrigh ta broken back, Bay still couldn’t hit, Reyes 2 trips to the DL. Bullpen sucked with K-Rod and continued to suck after K-Rod .Defense was pathetic, fundamentals were unheard of. Duda played better than Beltran and Beltran went on the DL with a sprained wrist from swinging the bat. Please come back to reality. We were a 500 team at best with those 2. So we’re gonna keep a guy who’s making 17.5 to close and keep Beltran and let him go for nothing. I could just hear it now. Why didn’t Sandy get something for Beltran at the dealine?
Does a general manager tell his troops, a mix of young players and young, seasoned veterans who had been playing at a 49-36 clip after starting off at 5-14, and doing it with smart, aggressive TEAM play that they are not in the same league and can’t compete with Puljos, Berkman, Holiday and Molina and that was why within the prior two weeks they got rid of their top hitter and closer?
If that was the case, then in 2008 Tampa Bay should have been told that despite being in first place, it should expect itself to fold (just like last year’s Pirates) for they were not in the same league and could not compete with Jeter, Rodriguez, Cano, or Ortiz and his fellow Red Sox over the course of a full year. And then why not trade Pena and Hinske, both of whom were thirty, for younger prospects to continue building for the future? If the Mets could get a Zach Wheeler for Carlos Beltran, imagine what the Rays could have gotten for those two?
Of course not. That would have been absurd.
So why was it different with the Mets? Despite injuries in each of the prior two seasons they had won 79 games each time – a lot more than the 66 Tampa Bay had in 2007. And the Rays were also a team that had lost 101 games the year before that. If Tampa Bay astounded the baseball world and went on to hold it’s own against the Yankees and Red Sox, two of the teams with the highest payrolls and biggest stars around, the Mets couldn’t?
Maybe because the Mets main concern was money?
If what you guys contest about the 2011 team is true, don’t get too excited about this year’s edition either for the makeup is basically the same as it was the end of last season minus Reyes, Pagan, Issringhaussen and Capuano, with the returning Ike Davis,Torres and three new relievers. The team should look to trade David Wright and Johann Santana while they are hot in order to get more prospects for rebuilding, no matter where they are in the standings.
That sound absurd too? Of course it is. But that is exactly what happened last year. So if they are having good seasons, let us dump the salaries so money could be spread among more good players instead of just Wright and Santana – exactly like last year.
Joey,
How can you compare a team that is in first place (Rays 2008) or a team in 2nd place 2.5 GB of the Division leader to the situation we were in last year?
7.5 GB of the WC with 6 teams to climb over (and a couple more to fend off) and 11 GB back of the Division leader.
Those situations are as disimilar as Gil Hodges was to Leo Durocher.
T,
I was waiting for that question LOL.
It doesn’t matter what you and I have to say about the team one way or the other. What does matter is what the general manager tells them. And should that message be that they can’t compare themselves to the 2011 Cardinals, Braves or the 2008 Tampa Bay Rays (going up against the mighty New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox) despite playing their rear ends off and a near .600 clip?
Would like to know how anything productive can come out of telling the players they are not that good. All I know is that the Mets front office was the first to do so under those circumstances.
…. and I think if under similar circumstances, with his team playing their hearts out, if that was said to Gil Hodges, the quiet gentleman would have punched Sandy Alderson in the mouth.
Joey again please, Let’s not get crazy here. Your not going to compare the ’69 Mets to the ’11 version are you? Please tell me your not doing that.
There is zero to compare them to each other it’s just too ridiculous for words.
Seaver, Koozman, Gentry, Ryan, McAndrew, McGraw, Grote.
C’mon you know better than that.
Joey,
If Alderson had nothing in the farm worth preserving some solid 2-3 year deals for decent guys would make all the sense in the world but right now? With Savannah, Pt. St. Lucie and Binghamton already having 15-20 solid Major leaguers plus Harvey, Mejia and Familia in Buffalo and a bunch more in ext ST, Brooklyn and Kingsport.
No, the right move is to hold. Get some guys to tide us over and most importantly ADD to what we have in place, that way we won’t run out of gas at the finish line, crumble due to not having any depth or be able to sustain whatever success we get and keep it going with higher end more well thought out choices rather than making so many reaches because “who else were we going to get to play _______?”
Enjoy the season for the kids breaking in and the kids on the way up and the culture change of overacheiving that began last year and before you know it it’ll be 1984 here, followed by 1985 and then 1986. Then the key is to sustain it and that’s where the Nimmo’s, Fulmer’s, Evans’, Marquez come in and the one’s afterward.
We’re really not that far away but two or three missteps now could have a lasting negative impact and what we’re going through at the moment is the cost of doing business the way we have for the last 15 years so relax. We’ve had really s****y years before even while going all in and this one will be better than many of them so take it easy. By late 2013 or April 2014 we’ll be ready to roll right when Philly is slipping, the Marlin’s are feuding, the Braves are contending and the Nats are at full strength and so are we.
No achilles heels.
And Joey that 2008 Tampa team wasn’t all thrown together in the off season beforehand. It was draft picks that were developed, trades for minor leaguers (Zobrist for Huff, Zambranno for Kazmir) some well thought out trades a couple older guys but it all took some time.
Didn’t happen in just one off season or even two.
Hi T,
Rest your soul and relax
I’m not comparing the 2011 Mets to that of the miracle team – even in my wildest fantasies.
But I do believe Gil Hodges would have been furious if the rug was pulled out from under him and his players in any year. No competitor wants that.
But you also made the excellent point regarding what should be done now with all the promising young talent we have on the farm: “the right move is to hold.”. That’s exactly what I was professing with Beltran and KRod as far as the baseball-end is concerned.
And then you further accessed the situation quite excellently by stating
“Enjoy the season for the kids breaking in and the kids on the way up and the culture change of overacheiving that began last year and before you know it it’ll be 1984 here, followed by 1985 and then 1986. Then the key is to sustain it and that’s where the Nimmo’s, Fulmer’s, Evans’, Marquez come in and the one’s afterward.”
Wasn’t the importance of that “culture change” had been what I had been professing all along? That “holding” onto KRod and Beltran and allowing the kids to develop that winning attitude and growing together as a team and finishing even with just a modest 85-77 record was worth so much in terms of the future, even with both veterans gone at year’s end? With “Savannah, Pt. St. Lucie and Binghamton already having 15-20 solid Major leaguers plus Harvey, Mejia and Familia in Buffalo and a bunch more in ext ST, Brooklyn and Kingsport.” as you point out, was our future situation so bad that we had to get a Zach Wheeler instead of beginning to nurture that “culture change” last year?
If in the same situation again this July, would ridding ourselves of Wright and Santana not be deemed a hindrance to the young players by again telling them they are not as good as they might think they are?
As an aside, aren’t you glad the fences are in? Even though Wright’s shot would have been out last year as well, it was pointed out that he no longer feels hindered hitting the ball to the opposite field and last year might not have swung in such fashion.
Joe
Joey, As I said before I don’t discount your opinion on the matter at all. It’s a valid one.
Wheeler was a great move though. #2 pitchers do not grow on trees. You have to be proactive and when you have a chance to get a potential #2 for the last 2 months of a guy who’s not coming back you have to take it when your not in a race. You certainly wouldn’t if you were legitimately in a race right? How often will we be out of it or just barely on the periphery?
No brainer. You never have enough pitching and I have no interest in seeing Brian Lawrence toeing the rubber in a pennant rase ever again.
K-Rod was a money deal. Dumped to avoid the salary. It’s happened here a thousand times in the last two decades only this time it happened with ownership having 500 M evaporate and being sued for a BILLION dollars right at the time they had to start paying off the Stadium, their primary business was in the toilet and revenue at Citi were FAR less than projected.
With Wright and Santana I would watch carefully, listen even more carefully and probably keep them through their current deals and let them go FA and take the picks. Each one is more likely to decline by 2014 than reclaim their former glory even if they do so this year and next. Wright probably wants 5 and Santana at least 3. I’d go 3 for Wright and 2 for Santana no more. Sorry, their not going to last forever and their not going to be a huge part of the 2014-2020 team but the picks could catch the end of that and keep it going.
Talent, in it’s prime is what wins baseball games, not guys 35 years and older.
Hi T
I too respect your views and find them quite insightful. Even when we disagree I find it’s not a matter of one being right and the other being wrong as it more a question of which of the two scenarios would be better for the team.
Yes, there are two sides to the Wheeler situation and I think we both have stated our cases well. If I felt that the team, playing like it was, but consisting of mostly veterans on their last shot and kids that couldn’t be counted on to succeed and improve over the next few years then, with it being a risky public relations gamble, I could see grabbing at the opportunity to get a prospect like Wheeler as opposed to a single shot at a post-season berth with players that were not in our long term plans.
But that is not what I saw last season. Even without Davis and Wright we had Duda, Murphy, Gee, Parnell, Neise, Turner, Beato and Thole adhering to a level of play I think caught us all off-guard. These kids were being anchored by Krod giving us kiniptions while usually coming through and Beltran having such an unexpected comeback season. With these two remaining on the roster (and not having the subsequent injury to Murphy) 2011 could have been a far better first step in the rebuilding process than it was. August and September saw them take two steps backwards as typified in the difference of their caliber of play that had them fall from playing near .600 ball to that of .400. Had they stayed a bit over 500 the rest of the way and finished with a modest 84-78 record, 2011 would have been a successful step for the future, and not like 1976 when an aging club had one last peak.
But we do have a top pitching prospect, agreed.
But let me ask, if the Wilpons were in good financial shape, let’s say the same as it was when they were able to take on that $17 million bonus for Krod, and didn’t have the civil suit hanging over their heads, do you think they would have even considered sending Beltran and KRod packing? Could they instead have even added some bench and bullpen strength by the two I suggested the other day (or others like them) which would not have cost us prospects we were really counting on?
That’s why I saw the moves taken last summer were out of financial desperation (or at least the appearance of it) with the 2011 season itself thus taken out of the equation. I could not visualize them dismantling the team being in the position it was, even if they were approached by the Giants with Zach Wheeler being dangled as the bait. I also don’t know if they would have hired a Sandy Alderson to take the place of Omar.
Hey, didn’t realize it was so late.
Night