8
2012
Wright Not Among Top 12 Third Basemen? Nice Try, Sherman…
An article by Craig Lerner
One of my favorite web-treks each morning is to stop by MMO to read what my fellow bloggers have been opining about and to see how many times I got called out by the lunatic fringe in the comment threads of my own posts. I look at those as my badges of honor. 
After that, it’s a non-stop trip to Adam Rubin’s blog to read his Mets Morning Briefing. That’s where you’ll find the best and most concise rundown of all the latest Mets news and opinion of the last 24 hours. (Also the source of many an inspiration for several of my own posts.) What I love most about it is how he covers a dozen or more storylines all in one neatly arranged post, rather than having to read over a dozen 100-word micro-posts elsewhere, spread out over a six hour period.
This morning’s briefing was packed with lots of interesting tidbits, as is usual, but one item in particular caught my attention. Rubin had an excerpt from a column by Joel Sherman of the NY Post who waxed poetically about the declining state of third-base play in New York.
ESPN was displaying its top 12 fantasy third basemen, and I noticed Alex Rodriguez was ranked ninth and David Wright was not even among the 12 names shown. Now I do not want to confuse ESPN’s fantasy rankings with, say, The Dead Sea Scrolls for relevance. But it does provide a snapshot of third base right now in New York, which is to say the most uncertain since 2004. That was Rodriguez’s first season at his new position and Wright’s debut as a Met. Both are coming off injuries and their worst full years, so suddenly 2012 has a mandate-like feeling for the duo.
Which makes much more sense for a 36-year-old coming off, among other things, knee surgery. But Wright is just 29. This should be his prime. Yet what encircles him is uncertainty — about his health, about his abilities, about where he might be playing the rest of his career.
My first impulse was one of shock and dismay. Wright isn’t ranked in the Top 12? Have things deteriorated this badly for our own David Wright who also happens to be my favorite Met by far?
After a few nanoseconds, I wondered if I could name the twelve third basemen that they could have possibly ranked above Wright… Immediately three names come to mind; Longoria, Bautista and Beltre… Who else, I strained to conclude… Possibly Zimmerman? Maybe Aramis Ramirez? Sandoval?
No Mas!
Too early – Can’t compute – Brain cells rapidly deteriorating…
I had to go to ESPN’s Fantasy Rankings to see for myself…
(Click image to enlarge)
And there, neatly tucked in between Adrian Beltre and Pablo Sandoval, was David Wright ranked at No. 4. Suddenly my world was a beautiful place again. There was our star third baseman ranked among baseball’s best while in the prime of his career. All is as it should be. That deserved a satisfying and healthy gulp of my still-hot Starbuck’s coffee. Ahh…
As for you Joel Sherman, all I can say is that a little research can go a long way.
About the Author: Craig Lerner
I'm a data analyst and researcher for a leading news agency who loves life and is hooked on the Mets. I love following the Amateur Draft and have a particular fondness for the Mets Minor Leagues who I follow each day. Give me a cold beer, a summer day, and a Mets game, and I'm good to go.
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hey Craig: Silly you for rooting for the Mets players and writing about it ha
But just a question
“After a few nanoseconds, I wondered if I could name the twelve third basemen that they could have possibly ranked above Wright… Immediately three names come to mind; Longoria, Bautista and Beltre… Who else, I strained to conclude… Possibly Zimmerman? Maybe Aramis Ramirez? Sandoval?”
Bautista? Did you mean Cabrera?
Cabrera, Beltre, Young, Longo, Healthy Youk, ARod are the 6 that I’d probably take offensively over Wright heading into 2012. Plus maybe Hanley depending on if he snaps out of it. Sandoval to me is like the Mike Pelfrey of hitters.
He has a good year, then has a bad year, good year, bad year. He doesn’t drive in runs either, hits for a nice average though. I want to see consistency from Sandoval over his career before I say he’s a better choice than Wright.
A bad year for Wright is .254/.345/.427 14HR 61 RBI while playing with a broken back. In 2010 Sandoval was .268/.323/.409 13HR 63 RBI with no broken back.
I’m not saying Sandoval cannot be better, I’m saying I’m not giving him a pass yet.
I am curious though, who were the 3B ahead of Wright on Sherman’s list?
that certainly makes more sense. Especially with fantasy, since Wright is still a threat to steal some bags, and even being expected to swipe say 20 will give you a major bump in fantasy rankings.
Seems the “good” writers follow the adage “don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story.” Sherman’s a hack.
Another crappy article about david wright and how highly or lowly he’s ranked.. WHO CARES!!!!?!?!?!!?!? but again, typical craig lerner, he loves sandy alderson, david wright and sandy wright!!!!!
Ya, it is so stupid to root for guys on your team. It’s much better to root for a player who followed the money to a division rival.
Sherman is probably a guy who got cut from his high school baseball team and became a groupie in high school and college. To him, writing about baseball is the closest he’ll ever come to being on the field.
As for ESPN, it’s just another main stream media hack job.
Facts and reason is what drives those wacko attacks Craig. The deranged lunatic cannot deal with either since it would require substance to back up a dissenting opinion hence the need for name calling and other juvenile tactics instead of engaging in an adult like discussion of the issues.
A lot of us find them hysterical. Think of it this way, if they agreed with everything you wrote imagine what normal rational people would think of you. You not only keep us informed but some of the responses to your articles are unintentionally hysterical.
Met news and a good laugh in one spot. Keep up the good work Craig.
284 17 74 type guy the past 3 years… what facts are we presenting here?? we have no reyes, no beltran and no delgado, so wright is not reverting back to the wright we saw from 2005-2008.. it’s not happening…
I’ll take Wright’s 2010 season of 157 games played, 36 doubles, 29 HRs and 103 RBIs for 2012 here in a NY minute.
What were Wright’s counting stats in 2010 and who was on the team for “protection”? There wasn’t even a single player on the team with an OPS over .800 other than Wright.
See? all you care about is his numbers…. OPS over 800 whopeeeeee…. We all saw what happened in 2010, he was STRIKING OUT like crazy, including in BIG SPOTS, but again, all that matters to the legion of his fans is that he ended up with an OPS of over 800… reyes had that oblique and was FORCED like a slave to played hurt, then beltran was SHOVED in the lineup, the SP falter, santana got hurt, the Krod debacle, bay was being a PO-S, JERRY manuel way over his head.. please, spare me numbers, all i care about is winning… but hey, 2010 is soooooooo 3 years ago, let’s hope he does good so he can be traded for prospect, let another team deal with his UNCLUTCHNESS!!!
You are something else…
he’s something else because he’s 100% correct and honest. Winning is all that matters to him while you people would rather protect favorites even when those favorites are one of the reasons for the Mets failure to get to the playoffs
He equated Reyes being forced to play like a slave. Really? Seriously?
Beltran was “shoved” into the lineup? please…
All he cares about is winning, yet the guy with the best offensive numbers on the team was the reason they lost… You both are so scared of numbers and never realize that there is a correlation between good numbers and winning.
It’s tough talking rationally with the lunatic fringe.
you say a lot of stupid things out here and make faint, weak attempts at humor that falls flat every time so if i were you i wouldn’t be referring to anyone else as lunatic fringe. You just have a very limited fan-based understanding of competition. You’ve learned your sports reading the morning papers and rooting for your favorite players so an objective analysis of your own team is pretty much not possible coming from you.
Carmelo Anthony had good numbers, is a good player, but the Knicks lose more with him than without him, and Denver got better when left.
Mystifying right?
Well David Wright and all his numbers don’t mean squat. If we had a thirdbaseman with less gaudy, window-dressing numbers – BUT – had the ability to be tough in tough spots and have a knack for delivering timely hits the Mets may have to more post season births added to their resume.
Screw his numbers. In his case his numbers are a small part of the story
“It’s tough talking rationally with the lunatic fringe.”
Thank you for proving my point.
and as usual a sarcastic “internet-based” response by NJTexUpHisAss.
Copying and pasting a phrase and doing what he wants with it instead of responding to defend his point.
He had no point to defend – now go break out the David Wright highlight reel. Oh wait, that doesn’t exist either.
I physically typed that response, thank you very much.
Yet if you replaced him with someone hitting .250 with 10 HR and 70 RBI there would be no big hits to get LOL.
oh okay so .250 10 HRs, and 70 RBIs = no big hits?
Now THAT’S lunatic fringe thinking. Actually is just plain DUMB thinking, flat out STUPID thinking.
First of all you don’t know when those hits are occurring. If most of those hits are occurring in important spots than it’s more important than having a higher avg but window dressing numbers that accumulate mostly when your team wins 10 – 2 and you go 3 for 4 with 2RBIs, 1 HR, and 1 double.
And having 70 RBIs with only 10 HRs? That’s pretty good! That’s a pretty good indication of a guy who gets timely hits – and 70 RBIs while hitting .250? Sounds like a guy who makes the most of his hits to me
dude, you know NOTHING and what compounds it and makes it worse is that you attempt to argue with the big boys who know their stuff – you can even dedicate yourself to your own projects.
Again, don’t you think that a guy hitting .290 with 30 HR and 125 RBI had some big hits as well? Also by the fact that he was hitting .290 wouldn’t he also be providing more opportunity for the guys behind him to get big hits?
As for you being one of the big guys? Isn’t that like Lee or Davis after the Civil War? Sure you’re a big name but you lost the war and are now just looked at as a big joke.
don’t know what war i lost and you keep saying that. Coming from a clown that can’t revive a failed blog and NO comments on his FB page (which is unbelievable) you should not be talking about other people “losing” anything.
Just stick to the subject and it sounds like YOU lost. You’re just a little whining fool and does not belong in the same street as some of us – you are the atypical coat-tails guy.
Take a hike. A .290 hitter doesn’t necessarily equate to more timely hitting you imbecile
Bay it took the south decades to realize and come to accept they had lost the war, I expect the same from you. You will keep fighting being too self-obsessed to realize you already lost. Baseball has changed and is leaving you and your eyes that are far superior than anyone else behind squinting and needed glasses.
As I have said all around the Mets world your name is famous, famous as a joke.
As for my “failed” blog? What FB page are you even talking about? I can provide you with the links for views and profit made if you would like. You insulting my blog is not going to bother me a bit because part of the reason it has been successful and has not completely died is we have been able to keep the lunatics like you at BAY… LOL. MMO is a great blog and survives in spite of you and if you were not brought into check would die because of you.
2010 Wright scored or drove in 190 of the Mets total 656 runs. That’s 29% of the Met runs that he accounted for on one end or the other as you would expect from a guy who led the team in both categories, but none of them was a big run or RBI?
Really? OK.
Facts are almost all players have limitations in their game that’s just the way it is. There are very few Carlos Beltran’s out there in case no one noticed. Now you could spend every waking moment criticizing a guy on what you claim is your favorite team who has been overall a very good player or you could just root for your team if your so inclined.
Can’t understand all the hate for a guy who’s been a pretty good player for us overall. Maybe we should see if we could re obtain Ty Wiggenton.
I’ll bet he has a few clutch hits in him.
You know I like Wright and want to keep him so take this not so much as a knock on what you said but as a note for how others use the same Wright knocking standards on Reyes (Who I know YOU wanted to keep Tag!)
In 2011 Mets scored 718 Runs 145 of Which involved Reyes! (20%)
In comparison Wright was only involved in 121! (16%)
Truth is BOTH sides here are dead wrong about the way they knock and find excuses to rid us of BOTH players!
In the case of reyes we gave up our leading run scorer and in the case of Wright it will be the guy who was our leading RBI guy after Beltran (Who has already left)!
The assesments made on both appear to be based on reasons OTHER than actual Baseball…
Some just want revenge for 2007 and 8, Other want to see the cheapest team money can’t buy or just want to see a team that is no older than 25 Because Kids are magnificent and experience is worthless! There is no saber for experience!
Both sides are wrong!
In less than 6 months we lost our leading RS guy and lost our best RBI guy and now we may lose our second best guy before August!
I can’t see how you can say your a fan and your HAPPY about those prospects!
And I can’t see why a fan would have any interest in justifying any of that!
It truly boggles the mind!
Lots of people doing a dental exam of our gifted horses!
And then finding a reason to send them to the Glue factory!
While I did not WANT Reyes to leave and I don’t WANT Wright to leave I am ok with that prospect if in the long run it fixes the ills that we have. You and I have already debated that notion and lets just agree to disagree there.
well TRS I don’t know how you can get enough from both of them to make up for the 36% of all runs you lost to get it!
When you have two players who account for roughly 36% (I’m sure it’s lower because some of those RBIs of Wright ARE Reyes) it makes much more sense to keep them and trade off the guys around them to try and find two more than account for another 36%!
We have lost our two most productive players with people calling for losing the 3rd most…
You can’t possibly get enough to make up for all of that!
No way!
Wheeler sure isn’t pitching every 5th day!
the two 2nd rounders for reyes COMBINED would probably not make up fthat 20% and it would cost you TWO roster spots to get what you got from just one!
We are playing Two in the Bush is better than one in the hand!
We all know that doesn’t really work!
One contract that Omar did a perfect job with is Wright.
Ending that deal at age 31 is perfect but if you wanted to ensure keeping him beyond that deal now is the time. Now to the end of the season. Once you let it get beyond that it’s 50/50 between you and everyone else and like it or not Zimmerman’s deal, like Crawford with Reyes sets the bar.
6/100 beginning at age 32? Not a good move. 5/80? Same thing. 4/60? Probably not worth it. Rip up the option and go 4/60 and have him for his 32-35 seasons (2012-2015) is probably the best semi reasonable offer but it better be made quick or the same thing that happened to Reyes will be in play and probably wouldn’t tempt him anyway.
Personally I’d actively listen to whatever anyone was willing to discuss and take the picks at the end of 2013 unless something like the Wheeler deal came around preferably for a solid stud catcher (Bethancourt if Chipper goes down or Joseph/Susak if Sandoval got hurt or Dominguez and Realmuto if Hansley goes AWOL)
Between Murphy, Lutz, Flores and Marte we have a few chances and we even have a stand in, in Turner if need be.
Better to take care of another position for 8 years than hope Wright can keep his decline at bay while clogging up payroll.
And my attempts at humor are never faint! Weak, yes. Faint, no.
It’s funny (at least to me) that you can paint a person with a wider brush than Bob Ross used to use, yet you get your comb-over all mess up every time it happens to you. So yes, you are more funny than I. I abdicate my funny bone to the mystifying land of Bayonne.
and he still hasn’t replied to defend his stance
What stance is there to defend? The lunatic fringe kills Wright and worships Reyes. I called Alex out for suggesting Reyes, like a slave, was forced into the lineup. That thinking is very 1940′s…
And I also think that blaming the guy on the team with the best offensive numbers for why they lost is D-U-M dumb. Oh, it’s all Wright’s fault that he stuck out in a supposed clutch spot, yet without him producing throughout the year, they wouldn’t have had as many “clutch” spots to be in, as they would have lost more games for what his replacement, whomever that may be, would have produced.
Then, since someone mentioned numbers other than Avg./HRs/RBI you go all “I can’t understand numbers that aren’t on the back of a 1986 Topps baseball card” on us all and start bring basketball and personal attacks into the conversation. Always an enjoyable time dialoging with you.
I bet the Game Winning RBI is your most favorite of favorite stats.
“Carmelo Anthony had good numbers, is a good player, but the Knicks lose more with him than without him, and Denver got better when left.
Mystifying right?”
Melo is known for his “clutch” shooting. Also ,the NBA is a star driven league. The Knicks’ problem is that they play lousy team defense, are weak low in the post, and can’t keep their main guys healthy.
And finally, the Nuggets went to the Western Conference Finals with Melo and not much else.
Not that any of this has anything to do with the Mets, seeing as to how the very nature of both sports makes them miles apart.
But, hey, why keep your ignorance confined to one sport? Please, enlighten us some more.
Bayonne, pay no mind, some people are not only stuck on texas, they obviously stuck on dumb as well…
Reyes had an oblique problem, he couldn’t bat from his left side so he was FORCED by manuel to hit only righty, was i wrong? were you not watching the game?
Beltran was obviously not ready, yet, he was put in the lineup to be there everyday and francour was traded, were you not watching either? or were you only watching wright’s padded stats???
funny how the back issue was thrown in as an excuse, when he came back from it that he was hot and hit like 400 for a whole week and was on fire NOBODY mentioned it anymore, but when ONCE again, he reverted to be mediocre, the back surfed again.. this people have some sort of love for this guy, even on a lost season, september 11th, sunday night, the spotlight was on NEW YORK, everyone watching, the jets had pulled up a miracle comeback for new yorkers, now it’s up to wright to send new yorkers happy for one night, special night, and what does he do??? CHOKES!! NOT ONCE BUT TWICE, in a game where lucas duda AND angel pagan were walked TO FACED him, twice he came up short, but hey, he wore the NYPD hat in the dugout to honor them, so all is forgotten.. even on the mets recap the next monday in this blog the talked was about the hat he wore in honor, the mets losing and bud selig, NOTHING was said about him CHOKING IT UP once again in a semi importan spot…
“Reyes had an oblique problem, he couldn’t bat from his left side so he was FORCED by manuel to hit only righty,”
Hmm, sounds like an excuse to me. All you ever do is make excuses for this former Met. What excuse do you have for his Septembers in 2007 and 2008?
trs86, as i told you before, you hanging with donal and co is making dumber by the hour, how does that sound as an excuse?? did i say his numbers went down? did i say his oblique made him less effective (Clearly does but i did not say that)?
My point was that an oblique injure forces every player to be in the DL, yet, reyes for the good of the team toughed it out because manuel needed him to be in the lineup, he didn’t mind and went up there hurt to play, how am i making an excuse for him??? You guys are all a bunch of morons…
Were you out there campaigning for Wright when he played through the broken back for weeks and refused to have it checked?
Again, there is such a double standard. At least I don’t let how I perceive how someone else perceives a player dictate how I feel about a player on my team. If that sentence does not makes sense, it’s ok because neither does your stance.
Also saying me commenting on Donal stuff makes me less intelligent yet you hang with Bay? What exactly would that make you?
That would make him MUCH more intelligent, which i am.
Now if you want to complain about the way i express myself to defiant IDIOTS like you, that’s another story. But as for baseball knowledge and experience? Just go home because there is NO comparison and you know it. So go home and try and jump start that FAILED project of yours – try and LEARN from people that know more than you than maybe you’ll start to get better.
Do you use a standard soap box or is it extra tall, so more people can see/hear your rantings? Just curious.
I wonder if Alex realizes your effect? I wonder if he is out on the front lines fighting a war that is already lost being lead by a deranged leader that refuses to understand that his style of fighting, techniques and weaponry are outdated and considered a joke? I wonder if he realizes that his leader is a laughing stock all over every Mets blog? There is not one single blog where even 25% of the readers take you seriously. Your name mentioned is a synonym of any poster who has no grasp on realistic thought at all. You have made yourself into a mockery.
The Lunatic Fringe salutes you!
he throws the .OPS out there, good grief.
Never mind that it’s not only the lack of ability and WELL KNOWN reputation (outside of a few groupie fans) of being a player who chokes under pressure, cannot perform in big spots and there are NO David Wright Mets highlight in his entire career!!
None.
I guess maybe there is if you want to find footage of a few, scattered big hits in May or June or July in his 9 years as a Met. Any big leaguer can get big hits in their career, sure.
And lets add that the guy is not a good thirdbaseman, Carlos Delgado saved his bad throws on a regular basis ANDDDD the guy is the WORST offender of not hustling out ground balls on the Mets. Outside of Gary Sheffield and a few brain lapses by Carlos Beltran no Mets is more guilty of lack of hustle..and on a regular basis..then David Wright. I’ve seen this guy practically STOP before reaching 1B on a groundball to SS, and during the same game R.A.Dickey ran as hard as he could on a groundball.
And who can forget a couple years ago when Wright JOGGED home on a hit and the runner was thrown out at 2B before Wright scored. It was an easy run if simply Wright just ran.
And let’s not forget his weak competitiveness too. The guy is probably afraid to slide hard into 2nd base to break up a DP. As a matter of fact does anyone here EVER remember Wright sliding hard to break up a DP? I don’t remember seeing it. The guy is durable sure, but a “soft” durable and a “soft” player and most definitely not a winning player.
There’s a LOT wrong with this guy’s game – but his OPS is nice. Unbelievable parameters these DOPES use to judge what’s important now.
But he’s Craig Lerner’s favorite Met – strictly because of numbers and no other reason. And Craig Lerner talks about a “lunatic fringe” when he credits Sandy with an amazing off season last year, an incredible off season this year and writes articles about how successful the Mets season was last year.
He’s the lunatic fringe.
Actually I started the conversation with “What were Wright’s counting stats in 2010 and who was on the team for “protection”? ”
His counting stats were 29 HR and 103 RBI on a team that the offense was absolutely pathetic. I only used OPS to judge the fact that the rest of the teams production. If you would like to look at THEIR HR and RBI that’s fine but it’s ugly.
2010.
You mean the year that 13 of our hitters got OB less often than two of our starting pitchers and our losing record was due to a guy who had 29 HR’s and 100 RBI.
OK.
“I guess maybe there is if you want to find footage of a few, scattered big hits in May or June or July in his 9 years as a Met. Any big leaguer can get big hits in their career, sure.”
HAHAH This coming from a guy that through a hissy fit because Alderson didn’t sign a 40 year old bad catcher, that YOU claimed “He can win games for us” because he had ONE walk off homerun in May
ooops sorry – I forgot I’m not suppose to reply because I’m a woman, I never played the game and I have a thing for Wright…..
Even better he was hot and heavy for mike Jacobs because he hit a couple ST HR’s in 2010.
Counting stats were 29 HR and 103 RBI with NO protection at all. None. Go back and look.
Bingo.
That’s why I kept my comment to doubles, HRs and RBIs. You know the stats some only look at.
You know what they say about opinions. Everybody’s got one.
Meanwhile on Wheelhouse last night (or was it the night before?) one of the 2 talking heads rated Wright first on his list of NY 3rd basemen of all time. Above ARod.
Opinions……
Not only was that a major error of omission which indicates journalsitic inadquacies but the bigger question is why was the subject of fantasy baseball even brought up by Adam Rubin in the first place? We’re talking about the real thing. Was it that there was not enough news to fit?
For the same reason the video game video was shown. It’s March, it involves the Mets, and some people are into it.
Speaking of which, what happened to the video game post? Was their a rights problem with the video? Sony can be jerks like that.
ohhhh, so NOW it’s ok to root for your own guys on the team because reyes is not here?????
comments like yours is the reason why many people don’t like wright, as if it wasn’t bad enough he’s got a legion of fans who somehow still think he’s a franchise player he now has groupies who want everyone else to love him because he’s the lone tenure met or something? please, spare me the drama, reyes is one of my favorite player, i will root for him to do well, the same way i rooted for ken griffey, george brett, dave steib, tom henke, pat henge, mussina in baltimore, george bell, strawberry, gooden, etc, but, by your account i must be a fan of all those teams right? idiot…
Just out of curiousity… how do you list off players like Griffey, Brett, Stieb, Henke, Hentgen, Mussina, Bell… then follow it with “but, by your account i must be a fan of all those teams right? idiot…”
Then at the same time call me a Braves fan because I think Kimbrel is really good?
To a few here it’s not about what you say, it’s all about who said it, but you already knew that Jessep.
Listen jesseP, i usually don’t even bother with you, i have told you how much i despise you and what you represent, but i will say this, the reason why i called you a braves fan is not because you said kimbrel was good, don’t try to put yourself as a misguided guy, we’ve seen in here how you DROOL over the braves, the organization, the players, how you raved about them, ARTICLES you’ve written saying how the mets should model the braves, how kimbrel was THE BEST CLOSER IN THE GAME, how freeman was the best 1B in the NL EAST, etc, eeven when they choked you disappear for like 3 days because you didn’t wanna face any backlash from us who were seeing you for what you are, a phony, fake, snake met fan, why else who people in here despise you as much if it wasn’t for your lack of ba**s and phonyness huh??? don’t try to be a victim here. i like many players in the majors, but you don’t see me in this blog SHOVING THEM in everyone’s throat. Bayonne used to send you and AGEE to that braves blog for a reason..
Alex:
I’ll break this down for you.
“we’ve seen in here how you DROOL over the braves, the organization, the players, how you raved about them, ARTICLES you’ve written saying how the mets should model the braves”
First off, did I write an article saying Atlanta should be the blue print? I did write one saying LAA should be but even if I did write one about Atlanta… can you explain to me why that is a bad thing?
Are you telling me if the Mets came out and said “We are going to model our franchise in the same design as the Braves” that you’d be mad? We’re talking about a franchise that has been under .500 twice in 21 years.
“how kimbrel was THE BEST CLOSER IN THE GAME”
I said he was the best closer in the NL and during the summer when the discussion happened he was ranked #1 in the Rolaids Closer Award in the NL, which means… he was the best closer in the NL. I also said I’d take Kimbrel over KRod (which is what fueled the debate) and I’ll still gladly do that.
“how freeman was the best 1B in the NL EAST”
When did I say that? Are you just making things up right now? Howard is the best 1B in the NL East.
Sure he did. Because he had nothing to refute the points made about Atlanta’s philosophy being so incredibly superior to ours in results (as opposed to excuses)
15 post season berths in 21 years (only 1 wild card) compared to 3 post seasons berths for us (2 of them Wild Cards)
Yeah I think they’ve done quite a bit better job than us and it’s not due to “sucking for 20 years” as one poster here says because only 2 of their players that contributed to their success came from a top ten pick and another one was 2 trades removed from a top 10 pick.
Their success has come from being anti-monkeyball, not pro monkeyball. They provide their own solutions and go out and trade for whoever they want because they have the farm to go out and get ANY player, not just the ones who are soon to be in decline or on the DL.
Their organization goes from having a catching tandem like Javy Lopez/Eddie Perez to Brian McCann/David Ross and SS like Rafeal Furcal to Yuniel Escobar to Tyler Pastornicky and RFer’s from David Justice to Ryan Klesko to Jason Heyward and pitching? Forget about it.
Hanson, Beachy, Minor, Teheran, Delgado, Kimbrell, Venters, Vizcaino.
Good scouting, (especially of other organizations, both Majors and minors. Great development and treating the future as at least important as the present has not only kept them competitive every year, it’s gotten them to the post season 3 years out of 4 and only 2 under .500 seasons in over 2 decades while we’ve had 12. Just one 90 loss season (exactly 90) compared to our six (one of them 103)
Heaven forbid we ever move away from the proven failure that monkeyball is and actually adopt a more successful approach that may someday have us competitive year in and year out.
It’s this absolute belief in and reverence for monkeyball even in the face of staggering evidence of its failure and the excuse making for Phillips and Minaya that makes the tried and true monkeyballer want to hide any comparison of the actual ON FIELD results between teams that do things the way the Braves do and teams that take the quick fix short cuts like we have for over two decades only to see it fail, crash and watch people make excuses for it……….again and again and again.
Monkeyball apologists.
Sure he did. Because he had nothing to refute the points made about Atlanta’s philosophy being so incredibly superior to ours in results (as opposed to excuses)
15 post season berths in 21 years (only 1 wild card) compared to 3 post seasons berths for us (2 of them Wild Cards)”
1 WORLD SERIES RING….. that is all people will remember them by, team of the decade was the yankees with 4 rings, braves in their history including ALL THOSE post season berths you guys care too much about have only 1 ring… ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! by the way, you might wanna check again the history of the atlanta braves, i think they’ve existed longer than 21 years…
since 1966 they’ve had 1 WORLD SERIES, ONE, the mets have had 2…. SUCK ON THAT BRAVES FAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Alex you have to be kidding me right now. Over the last 21 years you’re telling me that because the Braves only won 1 WS that negates everything they’ve done as an organization?
You have got no clue what you’re talking about. Do you realize that in the last 20 years the FRANCHISE has averaged *93* wins a year? You have any idea how unbelieveable that is, especially in today’s game? If you’re telling me you’d rather be a Marlins fan over the last 20 years than a Braves fan then we just see very differently. Winning a World Series is great, its the ultimate goal… but to even have a chance to do that is a special feat.
If you don’t look at the Braves and see an incredible blueprint for success at a mid-market level, you’ve lost all ability to think.
You’re honestly telling me if Sandy Alderson pointed at the Braves and said “we want to do what they’ve done since 1991″ that you’d have a PROBLEM with that?
If the Mets had even half as much regular season success as Atlanta since 1991, I’d rip my clothes off and jump in a freezing lake out of excitement.
Just my opinion, but I’d rather be a fan that competes and gets to post season year after year – even if they don’t reach and/or win the WS, then win 2 WS in 15 years but finish around the cellar the other 15 years.
Obviously, I meant ‘fan of a team’……
srt: Because you’re a logical person and understand that winning almost 60% of your games over 20 years is harder to do than winning 11 games in October.
Winning a World Series should be every single team’s goal. Every fans ultimate goal. But once the playoffs happen, its a crapshoot. A hot team can ride it out for 2 weeks. As a fan of course you’d love those 2 WS wins by the Marlins…
But I will take 17+ chances at a World Series, over 2-3 chances any day as a fan. You tell me the Mets next 20 regular seasons will emulate the Braves since 1991, I’ll sign that contract in blood, sweat and tears.
Yeah, I hate the years that we almost know it’s over before it’s started. As a fan since ’68, there’s been too many of those that come to mind….
Yeah I agree. I think we talked of this during the 2nd collapse that I would rather be a fan of the team being in that position and tanking it than to be the team not in position at all.
I remember that discussion…
Just a caveat. I’m in no way meaning I want us to be the Yankees. LOL We’ll I’ll take their success minus the highest payroll in the MLB though.
So Marlins have two World Series Championships in 19 years, we have two in fifty but of course you knew that Marlin fan.
While it must be frustrating to go to the playoffs as often as the Braves have (15 times in 21 years with one post season canceled by the strike) it can’t possibly be as frustrating as it is for us to have only gone 3 times in 21 years even while having the largest payroll in the entire NL during that period.
In fact the Braves have been at least “in the hunt” every single year except 2006 for a playoff berth unlike us who’ve been out of it by September 1st 15 times in 21 years so………
SUCK ON THAT MARLIN FAN.
“ohhhh, so NOW it’s ok to root for your own guys on the team because reyes is not here?????”
What? When has it not been OK for Mets fans to root for Mets?
“comments like yours is the reason why many people don’t like wright,”
I think the problem isn’t with me, but rather with those “many” people.
“the same way i rooted for ken griffey, george brett, dave steib, tom henke, pat henge, mussina in baltimore, george bell, strawberry, gooden, etc, but, by your account i must be a fan of all those teams right? idiot…”
You have said the only Mets games you would attend are Marlins games so you could root for a player on their team.
And where was this fervor yesterday when one of your buddies wished an injury of Reyes and had a whole bunch of other nasty things to say? Who was the only person to speak up about it?
Hypocrite.
Donal, i saw what 224 was writing, and i saw you engaging with him, after seeing how childish he was being i chose not to even bother with him and never even answer to him anymore, just as i’ve done with many i will not answer to him because that is unnecessary, to wish someone to get hurt is utterly pathetic, BUT, there has been comment made by YOU “kidding” about reyes and getting injured, so don’t try to play the hero in this occasion cuz you’re not..
You saw it happen and you said nothing. NOTHING. And don’t give me that “you already engaged him”.
You’ve never been one to avoid a dog pile. You have no problem when your buddies are all going after one guy. Especially when you don’t think the guy being talked about is in the room.
What did I say about Reyes getting injured? The only time I referenced it like that is when I said I’ll stand up and cheer his first PA at Citi Field this year if I’m at the game and he’s not on the DL. That is well short of wishing injury on him.
I’m not calling myself a hero, I’m calling you a hypocrite.
Donal, you’re the worst??? when bay said he had first dipped on reyes locker room and there was an article about it didn’t you “joke” saying “bay will be out 3 weeks” i kid i kid, like a little bi*** that you are you don’t man up to what you say, and to that other dou****** JESSEP , you LOVE THE BRAVES, it’s ok, we get it, there’s no shame in that i guess, but don’t come into this blog to be all phony about you being a met fan and reyes is your favorite player when we all know that’s not true, you’re so phony and fake it’s not even funny, you and donal are meant for each other, stuckin, craig, agee, xtreembutkisser, trs, srt, hitsoftman, you should all form your little blog together… it’s pathetic!
Alex, what do you think would happen if you and your group formed a blog? Just curious, do you think Mets fans or Mets haters would be your most loyal readers?
Wait, someone made a joke that Bay would get injured because he had Reyes locker? I missed that. Obviously that would be funny.
“when bay said he had first dipped on reyes locker room and there was an article about it didn’t you “joke” saying “bay will be out 3 weeks” i kid i kid,”
Heh, forgot about that. I try not to laugh at my own jokes, but that was a good one.
Again, referencing a player’s well documented health problems is far far different than wishing an injury on him.
The former is an easy joke, the latter is something creeps who keep a list of online enemies and make threats would do.
Still developing your opinion on a player based on how you perceive others perceive a player.
Alex why would anyone else’s comments about a player affect your liking/disliking that player?
Doesn’t make any sense to me.
That is what I am trying to figure out.
Again, referencing a player’s well documented health problems is far far different than wishing an injury on him”
Yet it’s ok to use wright’s injured back as a reason (EXCUSE) for his down season last year?
Double standard much?? and trust me, knowing how slimy you are, i doubt you were kidding, but you know you’ll get criticize for it so you use the “i kid i kid” card so people don’t get on you, MAN UP and don’t be a little b**** about it, man up and say what you mean without using the i was only kidding card to deflect commenters, that is what difference you and real men in this blog…
Didn’t you just use an injury as an excuse for Reyes in 2010? Also, what is your excuse for his performances in September of 2007 and 2008?
Do you actually read???? when have i used an excuse for reyes or have reyes ever made an excuse for his poor performance on the field??? people ARE still looking for excuses for wright to defend him and made him out to be a franchise player or some sort of, i don’t do that with reyes, the day most of you REALIZE and ACCEPT he’s a big time choker is the day this debate will finally end. until then, arguments will always exist for this demigod!!
OK so in your game, Reyes would also not be a franchise player because regardless of excuses he failed in the 2 Septembers that mattered the most.
question for the Wright debate.
THis concept of guys that have a knack for getting “big hits”, even though overall their numbers are not great, has a flaw.
If player X (that hits .250 with 70 RBIS) is so “clutch”, why can’t he gets hit other times (that is, if he can get them in big spots, why not in other spots)?
Does he just not care enough to bother coming through? Or he is mentally weak, and needs a challenge?
Maybe he just gets his hits most of the time when men are on base. And he goes 0 for 5 2 days in a row when the teams wins big one game, and loses big another. The only thing you can tell by those 2 stats is that most of his hits occur when men are on base.
.250/10/70 is very good ratio
I mean you can fictionalize other scenarios like you did in your original post – i’m just giving you a real scenario. To say that the guy just doesn’t care to get hits at other teams is just nonsense.
Actually what it most likely means is that he is batting 6th or 7th on a really good team.
I do find it odd that when the same SUPERCRITICAL EYE that was used on Reyes is used on Wright people cry FOUL!
Lets see by trying the same test…
Lets name the SSs you would rather have before Reyes!
Where does he wind up? 4th best?
It’s odd that people excuse the two years of Wrights worst seasons in the last three yet will gladly ignore the GREAT season Reyes had just last year in favor of his two injury plauged getting all the mention.
Basically what happened with Sherman is he used the same justification for denigrating Wright as others used on making Reyes sound like a waste!
And he probably did it to set us all up for the eventual departure and justification for letting Wright go when the time comes!
Personally I thinbk both should stay but when your thinking starts off with: “What would be a good reason to cut his Salary from our Payroll?” these are the answers you come up with!
Any port in a storm to make an excuse to let an All Star go!
If Reyes is healthy I would most likely rank him 2nd? Unless I am missing someone.
Right now, I’d rate Tulo 1st.
I’d like to rate Reyes 2nd, especially looking at his entire career overall, but the 2 DL stints last year leave a little bit of doubt. Heck with it, I’d still rate Reyes 2nd……
LOL Srt…you just did it again, noting reyes’s mIssed time!
But here is something you didn’t consider…
EVEN WITH the two DL stints…
Reyes accounted for 20% of our Runs!
Thats higher than anyone else on the team!
And who missed the LEAST amount of time last year?
Reyes?
Wright?
Davis?
Murphy?
Beltran? (granted it wasn’t injury in his case!)
You know if a guy only plays half the games but still accounts for 20% of your scoring total does it really matter how many games he missed?
Sure it still matters how many games he missed because during those games he missed how did the team perform? Offensively and Defensively?
And how will they then perform without him at all now? In ANY game?
You cut off the arm to stop the pain in the finger!
Was it better to fix the guy who couldn’t help the few times he was out or was it better to fix the team who couldn’t win without him?
I guess we shall find out in the long-term how they play without him.
Long trm is just an excuse and acknowledgement that the short term is worse and your hoping people forget that later on if things get better!
But IF they do it won’t be because we let Reyes go!
Not unless both those comp picks are better than he is combined!
And even if they are unless one is AS good and the other one improves on someone else you have really accomplished little that you couldn’t have done WITH reyes!
Tell me something would you take the perfectly good engine from your car and put a less reliable one in it’s place to improve your oil filter and buy better tires?
Or would you keep the engine and find a better way to get those things without taking the risk the new engine sucks?
What if that high performance engine was in the shop half the time?
TRS check your mail.
Got it.
Reyes missed 30 games!
Is 30 half of 162?
How many games is he going to miss now?
And who is going to make up the 20% of runs you lost?
Well it’s a metaphor as he is not really a race engine either…
OK so you have a 60,000 car that is in the shop off and on and can break down. When it runs it drives better than any car around. My payment on that 60,000 car is 1,000 a month. At home I have a car that is nothing special at all but gets me to work everyday and is a 1500 car and does not have a payment. My budget was already tight and I have big plans for the future, so I can spend a little of that 1,000 a month now to buy some needs but here a couple of years when my finances are better I can buy a house using that 1,000 a month and adding to it….
Still gave up on something that got you 100% 80% of the time compared to something that only gets you 80% ALL the time!
Better to fix the car that gets broke 20% of the time than try to make a lesser engine give you 20% more it can’t really give you!
And? Would loss time not count in an overall rating of a player?
count towards what? Performance?
If a guy misses 20 games gives you more than a guy who misses none who is the better player?
If Reyes worse than Thole because Thole didn’t miss any games last year?
Troy’s missed about 100 games in his 5 full seasons so it’s not like he’s completely healthy either but his game does lend itself less to injury than Reyes. He’s also an outstanding SS and two years younger.
See the question I asked SRT….
Who missed more time?
Does missing a month really trump scoring 20% of the runs the team got?
Is the answer to get rid of the productive guy or work harder on keeping him healthy?
O.K…..if this debate was really about:
Does missing a month really trump scoring 20% of the runs the team got?
Is the answer to get rid of the productive guy or work harder on keeping him healthy?….
Then it went right over my head.
To answer that question though it depends on the player, what position he plays, if there is a creditable backup, etc.
As to working on keeping ‘him’ healthy. I have to assume all teams are dedicated to keeping their players on the field. How much success they have is a different story. Hard to tell if a problem with injuries is a poor training program for a team, poor diagnosis, player not paying attention to his own body, player just has a ‘brittle’ type body that is always gonna break down.
Don’t think you can answer that one with a standard across the board.
Whats the better?
losing 20% of your production?
or getting it and having to deal with replacing that guy who got it for you when he can’t play?
You basically complained about a guy not playing 30 games but gave you 20% of your runs and your solution was to ensure he wasn’t playing 162 games and couldn’t give you that 20% anymore!
You didn’t GAIN those 30 games you were so worried about you lost 130 PLUS 20% of your runs!
While true it also depends on when that car is breaking down. It could get me to work 80% of the time but be broken down when I needed it the most as well. But that’s besides the point. It really depends on how I spend my resources obtained from letting the expensive high performance car go back. While I may have only bought a few necessities with the left over money this year I will have the flexibility later to buy a nice house instead of just a high performance car.
What are we talking about again?
And the guy you replaced him with leaves you 20% short of work EVERYDAY!
So I would much rather get all the way there 80% of the time than 80% there all the time wouldn’t you?
Come on now, we have no idea if Tejada will leave us 20% short of Reyes production nor do we know if the resources saved on Reyes will actually be used in the future to make up for other needs.
Yep you gave up the KNOWN production for a maybe!
Tell you what….Give me 100 bucks and MAYBE I’ll give you 120 in the future….NO GUARANTEE!
You in on that deal?
You were when it was Reyes for Tejada weren’t you?
Bayonne, we should avoid saying anything bad about wright and sandy… shoutbox is off again… SMH!
Luckily I can’t access it from work so I don’t have the temptation of reading the garbage.
then the hell with them if they’re that sensitive. Nothing wrong happened in there today.
I honestly don’t care if they’re going to be that easily affected. NOTHING happened in there today. In fact it’s been fine in there since it’s re-inception again. In fact the worse it’s been was yesterday with donal the parrot instigating people in his usual smarmy, sarcastic self
If that shoutbox was taken down due to violation of commenting policy here at MMO, then those who used it the past couple of days and were in violation only have themselves to blame.
Funny how the people that KILL anything fantasy related are all over this………..
Yet another stream of comments by people filled with double standards, and selective memories and vision. Same thing different day.
Kill one guy for something, in the same breath makes excuses for others.
I see a bunch of morons here wishing the mets be the braves, go to 15 post season and winning 1 WS, while i rather us be the YANKEES, go to 14 postseason and win 5 WORLD SERIES since 1991… STUPID people who tried to be competitive.. i wonder if any NY giants fan is complaining about missing the playoffs 7 times since 1998 yet going to 3 super bowls and winning 2? the nerve of some people… just because the yankees spend money, whaaa, whaaa, guess what, they give the fans what the fans pay for, unlike some other owners who pocket the money fans spend on teams etc…
You mean like the Marlins owner? Who is able to finally spend because for years he made a high percentage profit and refused to spend it?
Obviously you are not talking about the Wilpons who lead the NL in spending for almost a decade.
While every team would love to be the Yankees and be able to spend freely the reality is that because of their merchandising and tv contracts on top of attendance their income allows them to spend that much. I have never faulted them for spending so much money, but to wish the Mets to do the same is quite foolish for they don’t have the money to spend that much to start with.
alex, the shoutbox is there just reload the page – maybe it’s technical difficulties lol
If you want to be like the Yankees then why are you a believer in monkeyball?
The Yankees aren’t held hostage by just just whoever happens to be a type A free agent every year or who’s team suddenly makes them “available.”
Homegrown – Cervelli, Romaine, Cano, Jeter, Gardiner, Nunez, Pena, Nova, Hughes, Joba, Robertson, Mariano, Bentances, Banuelos
Trades from the farm – Swisher, Granderson, A-Rod, Pineda, Logan
Non type A FA’s – Martin, Ibanez, Jones, Chavez
Type A FA’s – CC, Tex, Soriano
NYY are very similar in philosophy to Atlanta. They identify who they want from other teams and then they go out and get them because they have a tremendous farm system. They do almost as good a job in developing their own position players as Atlanta although the Braves do a much better job in developing pitching. Both teams do an outstanding job internationally and consequently have multiple trade options for other teams to consider.
Biggest difference between the teams. The NYY can take on big salary like A-Rod or blow everyone out of the water on guys like CC and Tex while Atlanta with 40% of the payroll has to regroup after losing guys like Javy Lopez, Furcal, Andruw Jones and JD Drew while the Yankees can extend the guys they want to keep. The Braves also can’t afford to outspend their mistakes like Lowe and Kawakami like the NYY can with Pavano, Burnett, Wright ect.
The Yankees by the way are one of the most saber type teams out their emphasising OB% and neutral platoon splits since the early 90′s.
The biggest difference between the two in my opinion is the payroll. 210 M – 90 M makes a huge difference in post season results but in getting to the post season?
NYY and Braves both 15 out of 21 while we’re 3 for 21.
Chalk up another big loss for monkeyball.
Since 1966:
Braves 1 WS ring
Angels 1 WS ring
Mets 2 WS rings
Explain to me, what’s to emulate????? we have not been as lucky as those teams have been recently in terms of injury, also, atlanta had a couple guys that were accused of juicing up during those stretch runs, javy lopez, vinny castilla, galarraga, sheffield, amongst others, so.. yeah.. i am sure they did it the “right” way.. please spare me some, they’ve been bounced out of the playoffs 6 times in a row since 2001… SIX CONSECUTIVE PLAYOFF SERIES losses in a row!!
All you’re proving is that you cannot understand the difference between 1969 baseball and modern day baseball.
Since 1966 Pittsburgh Pirates: 2 WS wins.
So are you suggesting teams in 2012 should look at the Pirates for a blueprint of success instead of Atlanta?
I like how the fact Atlanta went to 5 World Series’ in 9 years just doesn’t count because they didn’t win them all.
In modern day baseball, you’re a fool if you try to tell me Atlanta hasn’t been a far superior franchise to the NY Mets. Is that really what you’re trying to tell me?
No we are saying there IS NO BLUEPRINT!
Thats a MYTH!
Anyone who thinks there is is just fooling themselves!
Because bottomline the only team that has a system for consistent winning is the Yankees!
They buy whatever they need and couldn’t draft!
And it worked because they managed to lose a ton and draft a good team that is about to retire in the next few years!
You have to draft well, develop well and lose over a decent stretch to get the best kids, have a ton of luck and once you have that you need to spend to maintain it!
It’s called BALANCE!
You can’t GROW a consistent champion and you can’t BUY a consistent champion!
You can’t MATH your way to one either!
There is no SYSTEM!
There is no BLUEPRINT!
NYY have only gotten a couple guys from top 10 picks that did anything.
Jeter and the two they traded for Tino Martinez. Petite and Posada came from the 20th round, Robertson, Joba, Hughes, Gardiner, weren’t top 10 picks.
Knoblauch, O’Neil, Wells, Clemmens, Pineda, A-Rod, Granderson and Swisher were trades from the farm.
Mariano, Bernie, Cano, Nova, Banuellos, Soriano were IFA’s,
Brosius a PTBNL.
Sure they supplemented with FA’s but not all were that successful either. Pavano, Wright, Irabu, Contreas.
El Duque, Straw, Gooden, Raines, Martin, Chavez, Andrew Jones didn’t cost a draft choice’s either.
It’s a complete and total lie that the NYY current run of 16 post seasons in 17 years was fueled by top 10 picks.
Complete fallacy.
how many of th eimprotant prospects (either called up, or traded for someone good) were instead overslot guys that they effectively “bought” (getting potentially a top-10 talent later inthe draft?)
Can’t really say Stick but slotting “guidelines” didn’t come out until around 2003 or so, so they wouldn’t have had anything to do with anyone who made the Majors before about 2006-2007 at the earliest. Couldn’t have affected their results in draft prior to 2003 and they started their rebuild through solid scouting work in the draft and internationally under Gene Michael in 1990.
Also wouldn’t have had anything to do with Bernie, Mariano, Soriano, Cano, Nova, El Duque, Nova, Banuelos,
NYY have not signed a number of guys in later rounds who wound up being 1st round picks 3 years later so I’d say it’s far more likely that the credit should go to Oppenheimer their Scouting Director overall but I believe of their current players Joba, Hughes and Bentances were over slot but then again ours were Pelfrey, Vineyard and Moviel.
Yeah you keep running to when they got guys but that doesn’t excuse the notion that if you HAVE the top 10 pick and can pick a good guy in the 20th you SHOULD also be able to pick winners and the BIGGEST winners in the top 10 because no one else can take them before you pick!
The only thing that finding the guy in the 20th round means is that they probably weren’t very good at picking, AT BEST good at developing and if they had the BRAINS and Knowledge to know who to take in the 20th then they should also have it in the top 10 which means losing gets you an advantage winning doesn’t at least as far as the draft is concerned!
If you have a clue about what your doing in the draft then you should get good players in EVERY draft!
If you don’t and only get players in the late rounds that makes you lucky not smart!
And I don’t know anyone who can WILL their LUCK to be better than another team!
I do know that if you lose a lot of games and pick before everyone your smarts are less dependent on others screwing up in the picks before you to get good players!
If you only get players in the late rounds that means your lucky, not smart.
You mean like Thole, Parnell, Duda, Gee, Niese, Murphy?
Posada and Petite have had careers our draft choices can only dream about. The fact that they both came from the 22nd round only makes them better picks, not worse. Neither is a HOFer IMO but still, compared to our best catcher drafted since Posada (Butera/Wilson) and our best drafted pitcher since Petite (Bobby Jones) Yeah I guess we can chalk it all up to luck, nothing else we could have done any better. Ah well, it’s all luck anyway why bother especially when you can get a real proven Major Leaguer like Mo Vaughn, Oliver Perez or Jason Bay anytime you want.
Guess WainWright 1st rnd #29, Glavine, McCann, Escobar and Freeman in the 2nd round Kimbrall in the 3rd, Justice and Gant in the 4th round, Klesko in the 5th, Jason Schmidt and Mark Wholers in the 8th, Millwood in the 11th, Mike Stanton in the 13th, Jermaine Dye in the 17th, Tommy Hanson and Mark Lemke in the 27th, Venters in the 30th and Marcus Giles in the 53rd were all just lucky picks.
Guess Andruw Jones, Javy Lopez, Eddie Perez, Rafeal Furcal, Martin Prado, Julio Teheran, Randall Delgado, Arodys Vizcaino, Elvis Andrus, Neftali Feliz were all just luck as well huh?
I wonder what it is that just a couple teams in MLB constantly get all the luck and we never get any of it?
Must have used it all up in the Seaver lottery.
And pray tell TAG what the hell does any of what you said address the fact that if you lose a lot AND are smart you can build a winner better than someone who Picks LATER is JUST AS if not smarter than you but you already took the player he wanted?
Hmmm?
Complete lie that the NYY were built on top 10 picks in the draft “while sucking for 20 years.”
The NYY have had exactly TWO picks in the top 10 since 1968.
1991 with the first pick of the entire draft they took Brien Taylor and 1992 with the 6th pick they took Derrick Jeter.
So there you go Metsie. Two top 10 picks, one has been a huge part of the NYY success, one was a washout who didn’t contribute himself or bring back anything in a trade.
As good as Jeter has been without IFA’s like Bernie, Mariano, Cano, El Duque, Soriano, Montero, Nova, Noesi, Banuelos, Cervelli, Nunez, Pena and trades from the farm for guys like A-Rod, O’Neil, Knoblauch, Wells, Clemens, Tino, Granderson, Swisher, Pineda a PTBNL like Brosius and 22nd round picks like Petite and Posada, it wouldn’t have mattered how well Jeter played.
Other contributors include non top 10 draftees like Hughes, Joba, Gardiner, Robertson, Romaine.
Draft placement:
1982 – 22
1983 – 13
1984 – 22
1985 – 23
1986 – 25
1987 – 23
1988 – 22
1989 – 15
1990 – 11
1991 – 1
1992 – 6
1993 – 13
1994 – 24
1995 – 27
1996 – 24
1997 – 25
1998 – 24
1999 – 27
2000 – 28
2001 – 19
2002 – 24
2003 – 27
2004 – 28
2005 – 29
2006 – 28
2007 – 30
2008 – 29
2009 – 24
2010 – 30
2011 – 28
Facts are every single player the NYY got, except Jeter, was available to every single team, most of them multiple times, like Petite and Posada who could have been selected 21 times even by the defending world champions drafting last. All the IFA’s including Mariano, Bernie, Cano, Soriano, Montero, Nova, Noesi, All available to anyone who wanted to sign them.
Guys like Wells, Knoblauch, O’Neil, Clemmens, Tino, Pineda, A-Rod. All available but you have to have the goods to get those guys. You have to be able to take on that salary too but that would be to our advantage because there would be less teams able to take that on but you still have to have something reasonable in the farm or 25 to trade.
The simple matter is the NYY through solid drafting and especially outstanding scouting in Latin America were able to provide a solid base from which to support numerous key positions on the 25 and then make trades for other key players and then added some FA’s to that, not the other way around like we did.
One top 10 pick out of two the NYY have had since the 60′s had anything whatsoever to do with their success. One.
the money factor really can not be overlooked. It allowed them to spend more on IFAs (though that is still relatively chump change compared to a medium level FA), and for taking on big contracts in a trade (in theory, allowing them to trade less talent than other teams that required cash back too).
When you combine that with a strong scouting and player development system (which also costs money, but again, a small amount compared to a bust of a FA), and the ability to resign any guy they want to (having a massive ML payroll) you damned well better expect to be in the playoffs every year!
Oh Really TAG?
SO then we can forget all that crap you keep repeating about giving away 1st rounders since no one you wanted to emulate did it with thier 1st rounders? No Successful team NEEDED them to become successful?
So we can call bull the next time you mention Alou, Wagner and anyone mentioned in the Wasted draft picks part of the four score and 25 years ago address?
Now as to what I said which you jumped on as usual but missed the point!
THERE IS NO SYSTEM OR BLUEPRIINT!
The ONLY think you can WILL to happen, the only plan you can GUARANTEE getting the best players in the draft is to suck and get first choice of who gets taken!
Thats a fact! You can argue you don’t NEED to do tnat to win and be correct but if your BLUEPRINTING, PLANNING, SMARTER than everyone else you can’t really set one until the other teams who pick before you have made theirs!
Could the Giants have taken Strasburg in 2009? NO!
Why? Because a suckier team took him first!
And that suckier team picked in front of them in every round of that draft!
SO the only way SF could ENSURE getting better picks than the nats was to be much smarter than them (which they can’t control), or be ahead of them on the pick board!
A point you argue everytime I mention it but forget WHY I said it!
Sure you don’t have to build with top 10 picks BUT if as you say EVEN if your smarter than everyone else that smartness, knowledge, skill is useless if the good guys are off the board by the time you pick!
Wrong again Metsie.
First, second and third round picks are very important in building a real team of guys who are good offensively AND defensively AND run the bases well AND have good baseball instincts.
Not to say those guys CAN’T come from other rounds, just that there is a much better chance of getting that type of player in the first three rounds then elsewhere AND a better chance that player will be a real cornerstone for years to come.
I was just pointing out how incorrect you were in stating that the NYY got all these guys in the top ten picks of the draft and that’s why they went to the playoffs 16 times in 17 years.
That’s a total fallacy. Total and complete BS as proven by the fact that they have only drafted in the top 10 twice in the last 50 years and one of them washed out.
The Braves have drafted in the top 10 once in 20 years. ONE time and yet they have a farm stuffed with top talent and a team full of recent graduates that have won and come in 2nd in ROY, gone to All Star games and even gotten MVP votes. Heyward 1st rnd #15 NOT A TOP TEN PICK. McCann and Freeman 2nd round, NOT TOP 10 PICKS. Kimbrall third round NOT A TOP 10 PICK. Hanson 27th round NOT A TOP 10 PICK. Venters 30th round NOT A TOP 10 PICK. Brandon Beachy undrafted, NOT A TOP 10 PICK. Prado, Teheran, Delgado, Vizcaino IFA’s NOT TOP 10 PICKS.
Braves have 2 top 10 picks, Chipper and Mike Minor. That’s it. Yankees have one. Dereck Jeter.
This is the blueprint. The teams in each league that have been consistently successful for 15-20 years, year in and year out and their success has had next to nothing to do with having top 10 picks. It has everything to do with getting good players out of the late 1st round, supplemental round, 2nd round, 3rd round and every round. Grooming them, not zooming them.
It is stupid for us to look toward Washington KC, Pittsburgh or Tampa Bay because those teams ARE good examples of multiple top 10 picks making huge differences now or soon but we don’t aspire to draft in the top 10 and we don’t have to draft in the top 10 in order to build a real team. The NYY and Braves don’t and they win and win consistently. Year in and year out. IFA’s and the draft have long been the foundation of these teams success same as the draft has been for Philly and again next to none of it due to having top ten picks.
The draft (all rounds, especially the best ones) and international free agency has allowed these teams to target any trade acquisition they want. Anyone at all, not just those that become free agents like we do cause we have nothing to trade. We can’t even put a 2nd basemen at 2B or a RFer in RF or a catcher behind the plate, how the hell are we going to make a trade? What do we have in excess? Nothing that’s what.
NYY want Pineda they have Montero and they also have Murphy (late 1st rnd), Romaine (late 2nd round) Sanchez (IFA 2009) Cervelli (IFA 2002) and Martin non type A FA 2010 and all this after losing their catcher of 20 years. What so we have? Thole, Nickeas, Cordero, Centeno, Pena. Please. You would really think the team with 7 top 10 picks acquired over the last 20 years would have at least one catcher better than the NYY’s 6th best one but we don’t and we won’t until we start making it a priority year in and year out like they do.
In the last 20 years the NYY and Braves have had exactly one top 10 pick each, we’ve had 7 of them and there is currently more distance in between us and those two teams than ever before during the last two decades and their farms are brimming over with talent to trade or bring up by doing GREAT jobs internationally and GREAT jobs in the draft and consequently being able to make GREAT trades while our educated fan base continues to scream for more Mo Vaughn’s and Jason Bay’s.
Running from the point again I see…
Can you take them if someone who sucked more than you takes them first?
Sure they are important but only in regards to taking a good one of whats left on the board!
But if you KNOW some guy is better but he has already been taken YOU CAN:T DRAFT HIM!
CAN’T PLAN TO DRAFT HIM!
SMARTS mean nothing if the team in front of you is JUST AS SMART!
I don’t see that inhibiting the NYY or Braves.
They seem to do just fine without top 10 picks.
We who have had 7 top 10 picks (acquired by playing monkeyball) have worse farm systems then they do and we used tow of them to help get Piazza, one more to help get Leiter and another to help get Santana which went a long way toward what modest success we have enjoyed.
No?
Then stop whining about all the 1st rounders we gave up to get All Stars!
Stop whining about 1st rounders being wasted over the past 20 years since you seem to think they don’t matter and it’s only what you do in the 5th and 6th rounds that makes you a success!
And stop whining about how smart we don’t look when we have picked in the bottom half of the draft in every round for the last 10 years because we were a successful team and competing.
Because as I showed it doesn’t really matter if your smarter than 30 other teams if they take all the guys you think are better!
Your smarts are USELESS unless they are DUMB and let one get by them!
And as smart as you think you can be you can never be smart enough to force 30 other teams to SCREW UP!
It’s all about how LUCKY you are either for them letting him be there or for you taking gamble in the 6th and coming up roses!
The blueprint we’ve been using of giving away our 1st and 2nd round draft choices on guys like Ventura (1 great year) Zeile (couple of OK years) Appier (1 OK year traded for Mo Vaughn) Weathers, Cedeno, Floyd, Pedro, Wagner, Alou, K-Rod and Bay has been bad enough overall but to combine giving away so many top draft picks with busting completely on 15/17 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks like Phillips did (and having one of them traded) and only going what appears likely to be 5/17 (and trading away one of them) in Minaya’s tenure and then adding in all the young prospects Phillips forked over for not much in Mora, Burnett, Izzy, Bay and Nelson Cruz it’s really not hard to see how we could wind up with the division’s worst rotation and 4 first basemen in our starting 8.
You just can’t take short cuts and expect it to work by signing an expensive, soon to disappoint and wind up on the DL before being put out to pasture, former All Star and expect to field a competent team now……………………or later.
And the blueprint we are using now is lets suck a lot and get those better picks because we THINK we are smarter than everyone else right?
Thats why Reyes and Beltran are gone and Wright is next on the hitlist?
I would say it has more to do with the lack of funds, but to each his own.
We’re really more in the neighborhood of where we were in 1991, 1994, 1995, 2001, 2005, 2010 and 2011. Very, very familiar territory.
Not as bad as 1992, 1993 (thank God), 1996, 2002, 2003 (thank God), 2004 or 2009 but somewhere within 5 games of .500 on either side.
Like I said, Very, very familiar territory for us during this two decade period of practicing monkeyball.
At least we haven’t given up a lot of 1st round draft choices and traded the farm to get there though.
That means we may be able to escape this trap someday.
Who needs 1st rounders? Weren’t you just saying the yankees did it by drafting in the 20th round?
You’re talking about winning a ring.
The rest of us are talking about competing all year and just getting to post season.
Of course it’s every team’s goal – and fans alike – to win it all.
But just get us to the post season, consistently. What happens from there is a crap shoot. It’s not always the best team that wins the WS – as others have pointed out here today – it’s the team that plays the best in those short series.
But in order to get to the post season? You have to be one of the best over the course of 162 seasons. Rather be one of the best every year, then be lucky one year and win the ring – then languish at the bottom for the next decade or longer.
I like how the fact Atlanta went to 5 World Series’ in 9 years just doesn’t count because they didn’t win them all”
The yankees went to 5 world series in a 7 year span, winning 4 of them yet you said the BRAVES somehow were the team of the decade… that cemented your knowledge of baseball right there… you gotta be really DUMB to even make a comment like that..
I at no point were arguing that the braves had been better than us during those times, we’ve had success in the 80′s, they were an afterthought, hell not even a thought, kinda like the phillies in the 90′s except for that world series app.. every team has its moment… since 2006, BRAVES have 1 playoff appearance (bounced out right away) and 1 CHOKE JOB, mets have 1 playoff appearance, 2 CHOKE JOBS.. so, the last 5 to 6 years, WE HAVE BEEN a better franchise right???
We have not been as “lucky as those teams.
Well one thing outspending those teams should do is tilt the luck in your favor, not the other way around.
Besides we’ve had guys on the juice too. Mike Stanton (the pitcher), La Duca and a few others plus we had a clubhouse guy selling the stuff right out of the clubhouse and I’ve never heard of the big cat juicing, where are you getting that from?
Why should spending have anything to do with Luck?
All spending does is carry you until you get that luck thats all!
At best you can say spending hurts only because you win more by buying better players and it is that winning that denys you a better selection of players to pick from and GET lucky!
But if your convinced you know what your doing and who to take then it really shouldn’t matter where you pick if your smart!
And if thats true you don’t need luck!
Most teams need luck!
All I can say is that the TRDMB people who lower themselves here should really seriously find some new hobbies.
Bayonne may be the single biggest loser assclown in the entire sports blog universe and you folks are here debating him?
This blog has some good points, but ultimately is a true joke for allowing a few completely ignorant anti-social lunatics to dominate.
Wow.
I guess I am glad I am too busy to comment that much.
Well, thanks for gracing us with your presence.
Sorry, I would a lot more if there were not a few of biggest fools in the sports blog universe dominating every thread, every single day.
I comment at Metsblog, TRDMB, and the Ledger, and while this site has more commenters than two of those three places, there is nothing ANYWHERE like the domination of ignorance that takes place here.
It’s mystifying that Bayonne is allowed to spew the same utterly meaningless, irrelevant drivel every day. Aggressive ignorance is unbearable to me. Bayonne defines that concept.
If Bayonne and a couple more were banned, this comment section could seriously be the very best anywhere in the Met blogging world.
Joe does just fine with things here. You can’t say it’s a great blog and then tell him to change a major part of it. He lets people go on with their opinions. It has worked thus far.
Do I wish certain parties would act more like rational adults? Yes. But, I enjoy this place so I won’t let those knuckle draggers bring me down.
please don’t!
Don’t like it here go right back to where you came from!
Especially if your posts today is any indication of what we will get in the future!
I was bored, Kong. That’s my excuse!
Then drink more!
Ah, my salty friend. You’ve just given us your formula.
Kingman — I’ve seen your posts from time to time across the internet. Sometimes you have keen insights. lol
In the case of reyes we gave up our leading run scorer and in the case of Wright it will be the guy who was our leading RBI guy after Beltran (Who has already left)!
“The assesments made on both appear to be based on reasons OTHER than actual Baseball…
“Some just want revenge for 2007 and 8, Other want to see the cheapest team money can’t buy or just want to see a team that is no older than 25 Because Kids are magnificent and experience is worthless! There is no saber for experience!
“Both sides are wrong! In less than 6 months we lost our leading RS guy and lost our best RBI guy and now we may lose our second best guy before August!”
Ah, Metsi,
You took all the fun out of this by expressing my thoughts as well…., though I would not have used such colorful wording to profess it.
I truly think we did the franchise wrong last summer by ridding ourselves of Beltran and KRod (though with KRod we have Omar to blame for that ridiculous bonus clause). As you pointed out, they were not baseball decisions but those that went against everything a ball club works to accomplish – winnning. It reminds me of the club owner in “Major League” who wanted to discourage Cleveland from winning so she could move it to Florida. In this case, the Wilpons undermined the Mets from winning to help lessen their own financial problem (which means they should get out of the business of baseball).
Many think the team was playing over its head and so getting Wheeler was the best of a no-win situation. I feel that even if the team stumbled when September rolled around, the experience of playing games of importance and finishing with a winning record would have been a major step in the “rebuilding” of this club in terms of maturity, confidence and growing together as a unit. Am sure Vegas would not have the Mets line to be 70 victories.
If nothing else, there would have been no mentality that resulted in those “underdog” tee-shirts and if Jeff wanted to, he could have handed them tees for “Danger Club” instead. Both start the season in April.
The intangable human element is so important in all team sports and is something that can’t be minimilazed in return for computer analysis or cold logic.
You know Joey,
I would have been fine with the K-Rod and beltran trades if it meant we didn’t have to get rid of reyes…
Top Closer and top RBI guy can be overcome but to let Reyes go and now entertain Wright being traded it’s just rediculous to think we are making this team better by losing all of it’s best players in less than a year!
Some of you are obsessed with hating on Wright in this thread no matter what. From what I read he was supposedly ranked 13th among all third basemen and clearly he’s much better than that. To think otherwise is plain ignorant.