19
2012
Weighing In Some More On Mets Owners, Reyes, Direction, Future
An article by 
Looking forward gets you where you want to go.
Today’s settlement news has led to quite a few readers who emailed me and disagree with some or all of the points in my last post. And of course that is perfectly fine. I started this site to encourage debate and conversely, I view criticism of what I post on this site as a badge of honor. I enjoy it, and I enjoy responding to it.
Most of what I’m getting is stuff that sounds like this:
1. Well, if the Wilpon’s are not broke than why didn’t they re-sign Jose Reyes?
2. So how come they haven’t spent anything in the last two offseasons?
Let me tackle these two seemingly recurrent sentiments…
Regarding Reyes, was not offering him a similar $106 million deal to the one he received from the Marlins an indication of the Mets’ financial woes or simply put – a good baseball decision by Sandy Alderson?
Did you want Wilpon to signoff on a longterm deal to Reyes? If not then why bring it up, because doing so only means that you believe Sandy Alderson to be on a leash and incapable of making his own decisions with regard to building the team.
Furthermore, if not Reyes, which free agent did you want the Mets to sign if your goal was to spend for the sake of spending? Prince Fielder? Albert Pujols? Jonathon Papelbon? Would any of those players made a difference on the 2012 Mets’ fortunes?
Do you think the Wilpons have learned nothing from the contracts to Johan Santana, Oliver Perez or Jason Bay?
Is it that difficult to accept the fact that Sandy Alderson would not have brought back Reyes at $100 million under any circumstances regardless of Madoff?
Do you still need another year to understand what type of GM Alderson is? Perhaps so.
From the day Alderson first took the job, he made it quite clear he was not cut out of the same fabric as Omar Minaya. If you expected the same old $100 million dollar band-aid approach to every offseason, you clearly haven’t grasped that that approach has not worked and is largely why the Mets now find themselves in their current quandary.
The days of dominating the back pages of the newspapers in November and December are at an end, and the race to start dominating the division by a sound approach to team-building is on. It may take a few years as it did with Frank Cashen back in the early eighties, but make no mistake that the similarities in how these two men approach achieving sustainable success is not all that dissimilar.
Their blueprint is quite simple: Build a good core of players through solid drafting, scouting the international free agent market, and making productive trades for good young talent. Once you have achieved that and have constructed a solid foundation at the major league level, fill-in those remaining one or two pieces like the Mets did with Donn Clendenon in 1969, Gary Carter in 1985, and Mike Piazza in 1998.
To spend for the sake of spending only tells me you’ve learned nothing from the past.
It’s obvious that the Wilpons have learned and you’re seeing that new plan take shape in the hiring of good baseball people who are paid to make good baseball decisions. If you have a problem with that, than I don’t know what else to tell you because nothing I say will convince you otherwise.
People change. It might have taken longer than any of us would have liked, but the Wilpons today are different than the ones who gave Omar Minaya the reins in 2005. They have evolved, and you should too.
Everyone should stop worrying about who the owner is and start focusing their attention between the foul lines. We’re heading in a new direction. You can sit on your pot and stew over something you have no control over, or you can look forward to the better days ahead and enjoy the ride.
The choice is yours.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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Bravo!
Finally.
I disagree on the point about Reyes and furthermore this teams roster being entirely Sandys choice.
The General Manager does not set the budget. The owners do. What you seem to be implying is that Sandy would have built this roster whether he had a budget or not. I completely disagree.
Sandy has built a roster within the restraints of the Mets budget. Had he had an extra 30 million to spend I think our roster would look a bit different.
The point is you cannot credit Sandy with the decision to cut payroll.
Payroll is, and always will be an ownership decision.
You hit the nail on the head.
Excellent article. The light at the end of the tunnel has now gotten a lot bigger especially after the settlement made today. Let’s Go Mets!!!
From a organizational philosophy the Mets direction makes sense. And I actually really like Sandy.
But I do not believe he would have let Reyes go had he had a higher payroll available.
Reyes was 28. Not 32. And at a premium position. And a fan favorite. Sandy knew all these things and the fact he never made a contract offer is, in my opinion a direct circumstance of the Mets financial woes. To assume otherwise is ignorant.
The Mets may very well be shifting philosophies, and trying to rebuild their organization. But if so, why the insistence on letting Reyes walk? Why then keep Wright?
That is my problem with your article and the Wilpons. They said the Reyes contract was entirely up to Alderson. That is an out right lie. Alderson never could make an offer because he didn’t have the money. And the Wilpons have simply been too cowardly to admit it.
Thats been my biggest problem with ownership recently. The effing lying! Just tell us you’re broke. It’s obvious. There is no way Sandy would have let Reyes walk for that amount had he had the $$$ available. I will never believe it.
In fact I guarantee you that if Sandy wanted to trade David right now, Fred and Jeff would tell him he couldn’t. Too much bad press, won’t be able to sell tickets.
Sorry but I’ve heard time and time again the Wilpons being involved in the front office decisions. To think they aren’t right now is wishful thinking to me.
I agree, Reyes decision clearly was because of Wilpon situation. Reyes overall came cheap, I think his injury history was baked into his numbers, his contract was an easy match IMO and we had Tejada to fill and groom if he did get injured. Plus Reyes backend loaded his contract so he’s only making $10 mill this year so in 2 years when Bay and Santana are gone his contract could’ve kicked it. Eh who needs a homegrown, 28 year old SS in prime of career and potential hall of famer??!?!??
And PFielder Reyes and a good starter were a contender for sure
Agree 100% Gregg.
Owner sets the budget out kept going backward. First it was going to 125 M and not “all” of the money coming off would be reinvested. Then it was 110 M and somehow wound up at 90 M and incredibly wound up including the draft budget as well.
If ownership had the money and the desire to sign Reyes Alderson would have played his hand a lot differently.
Ownership should have prepared a budget with and without Reyes and that would have allowed Alderson to go after him.
I dislike the whole “the Mets didn’t make an offer” argument. No one else did either.
I disagree with this post in that it makes Omar Minaya’s regime appear to have ignored the concept of building a solid corp of players through the farm and draft system.
The only thing breaking the bridge between competing for the post season in 2008 and competing for the post season in 2011 while remaining competitive as a brand new corp of young players rises to the big league level is INJURIES.
Why is this concept so hard to understand for fans? Injuries took away 2009, to a lesser extent 2010 – and that’s what led to 2011, and injuries and a terrible offseason by Alderson prevented the Mets from being relevant in September of 2011.
If not for injuries MInaya would probably still be here with a resume of being the GM of a team that has been contending for the Playoffs from 2006 to present WHILE a brand new corp of young kids and additions such as Ike Davis, Tejada, Duda, Niese, Gee, Dickey, Murph, etc.slowly blend right in.
Injuries have prevented that scenario. This post makes it seem like trying to draft talent and develop the farm here is something brand new…and it isn’t
It’s only new around here.
It’s very obvious that Minaya tried to get his high talent prospects internationally and some pitching in the early rounds and the back up and more one tool oriented guys from the later rounds of the draft.
The international players stalled and the one dimensional guys got put into positions that there not ideally suited for and the pitching all busted.
All farm systems have very highly regarded prospects that washout and others that suffer injuries and consequently never get going. Happens to every team but is usually overcome by having a number of credible options at various levels of the system for every spot on a future 25 man roster.
Between Phillips and Minaya we have given up 6 first round picks, four 2nd rounders and three third rounders and failed to take back 3 supplemental picks and a first rounder that were practically gift wrapped for us. That is a lot of potential talent that didn’t come into our system. Add in Phillips busting on 15 out of 17 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders that he didn’t give away and trading away quite a bit of young talent off the 25 or from the farm and what you have is no competition, low talent levels and no real solutions when injuries strike a prospect or he stagnates. Other teams do cause the average hit ratio in the first round is 66%, 2nd round 35%, 3rd round 20%. so they hit a lot more often and they have a lot more of the better picks so the injuries and stagnation don’t stand out as much.
Exactly,
From Omar Minaya we have two pontential 30HR bats in Davis and Duda, a good left handed starter, who has a nasty curve ball, and if he could put it all togteher I can see him being a number 2, or maybe number 3 starter. A decent starter in Gee. A solid middle infielder in Tejada. A very good hitter in Murphy. And a potential future ACE in Matt Harvey, and two other power pitchers in Familia and Mejia.
And as for T Agee’s post, no other team has suffered more devestating injuries than we have had the past few years – Key players like Reyes, Beltran, Davis, and Santana to name a few, have missed significant time the last three years. And nobody can overcome the amount of injuries that we have had the last few years. Nobody.
Last point of the day.
There seems to be a lot of Pro rebuild / play moneyball or anti rebuild spend like the Yankees thats how you win opinions around here. And not much in between.
Personally I like Sandys approach and on the last thread talked about the Rays new ownership and the success they’ve had.
However, it doesn’t have to be an all or nothing choice. Especially for a big market team thats “supposed” to have money.
I am all in favor of financial flexibility and building with homegrown talent. I didn’t want Pujols or Fielder, not for that $$$.
But the Reyes thing makes zero sense on both levels. He was a home grown star in his prime. The teams spark plug, and fan favorite. At a premium defensive position. To group Reyes with the contracts of Bay, Ollie, KRod, and other failures is a mistake. Those guys couldn’t hold Reyes’ jock.
You’re talking about a guy that was the best player in baseball for the first 3 months last year. A guy that won the batting title based on the quickness of his hands and pitch selection, not his legs. A guy that played a great SS.
Please do not group Reyes in with the Mets failures of the past. And even if you agree with Sandy Aldersons new direction of the franchise (I do), the decision to let Reyes go was a huge mistake. One that was forced upon us by bad contracts (Bay, Santana), and ownerships financial trouble. You could have easily locked up Reyes and Wright and still rebuilt the Mets.
But ownership is in desperate financial trouble. That IS THE BOTTOM LINE.
Couple things on Omar.
1. When he came in he spent on the draft and in Latin America.
2. His spending was cut off in the draft when Fred and Jeff agreed to never go over slot for a pick. This was presumably because Selig helped them get a new stadium.
3. Take a look at the 2005 first round. Look at the players Omar passed up to take Pelfrey. Make sure you have some alcohol on hand.
4. I don’t believe the Bay deal was Omar. That was ownership.
5. Omar was kind of a joke of a GM. His greatest accomplishment was convincing ownership to spend on players again. Problem was he spent on mostly the wrong players.
I guess not many people are in on the joke as most of the Mets minors and all the young players on the current roster belong to Omar Minay
Where the Minaya regime failed was rushing these prospects through each level. He drafted a lot of talent but Bernazard never let it develop.
who rushed them? And who was rushed? What are you talking about.
You have any official evidence that anybody was rushed? Maybe the only guy that I can think of that possibly was rushed was Mejia. I don’t buy into the “Pelfrey was rushed” garbage because I think Pelfrey would be exactly the same today whether he was rushed or not.
I hear of people keep mentioning things about kids being “rushed” Nobody outside of maybe Mejia was “rushed”. Tejada and Fernando both came up early because of injuries and they are what they are today makes no difference if they were “rushed” or not
Milledge for one. Fernando Martinez shouldn’t have even been sniffing AAA let alone the majors. I think Pelfrey was rushed due to the fact that he has one pitch. Thole was getting on the job training by Brian Schneider. And of course there was Meijia, but we’ll throw Jerry under the bus for that one as well.
Oh that’s just a lot of baloney and at the very best just your OPINION and not a fact.
Yeah like giving Milledge more time in the minors would’ve made a difference and who’s rushing Wilmer Flores? Maybe he’s just not that good and it shows the higher up he gets? We don’t know – yet. And like i said i don’t buy for ONE SECOND that Pelfrey was rushed and that it would have magically changed Pelfrey into a solid number 2 if he stayed back. Thole rushed? No.
Oh and do these people keep a “League Average” stat for prospects that are allegedly rushed?
Please.
Bayonne — “And like i said i don’t buy for ONE SECOND that Pelfrey was rushed.”
Your view is not shared by experienced baseball analysts. Pelfrey began the 2006 season for Single-A St. Lucie, pitching 22 innings. Then he was promoted to Binghamton where he pitched 66 innings. Finally he went to Norfolk and pitched 8 innings. Pelfrey made his major-league debut with only 96 minor league innings. He first pitched for the Mets on July 8, 2006. He flunked his first season’s major league test and was sent down..
In 2007, he pitched 80 innings in the minors and was brought up again. But he also flunked his second major league tryout. That’s not being rushed? Of course it is.
Wouldn’t you say it could have helped Pelfrey to go through more pressure in minor league situations while also developing consistent secondary pitches?
trs86 — I totally agree. Teams don’t usually bring pitchers up unless their command is good enough to help them work out of bad innings. Pelfrey’s wasn’t. So he bounced around in four different uniforms because Omar Minaya was impatient. Omar made some good moves in 2006 but his trigger finger with Pelf was one of the bad moves.
Yeah really Omar’s biggest failure during the entire tenure was needing more in the rotation and not coming close to developing a true answer.
and these “experienced baseball analysts” what did they say? Or is that more of your famous and should be patented “original reporting”
in MY OPINION Pelfrey was not rushed. And even if he was I happen to think it would not made a difference anyway. And besides if all you people think he was so rushed than send him back down again!
How much did YOU see him pitch in the minors? LOL
As to your point on sending him down again, it might not be a bad idea at this point to leave him behind in extended ST if he doesn’t at least show the ability to get guys out. While I don’t panic over spring training results, damn they are bad aren’t they?
When the facts contradict your opinion, you double down on your faulty views. You need to own up and think instead of giving us a big spiel. Did you get all your wisdom from your coaching days with 14 years old kids? Of from the back of bubble gum cards? lol
Pelfrey was rushed. You hate facts which show you to be a just a silly person.
and maybe F-Mart came up a little early the first time around but that was only due to injuries and don’t tell me that’s the first time it ever happened either, that’s just baseball.
I’m of the opinion it has had NO effect on what he is today. He wouldn’t have arthritic knees if he wasn’t brought up early? Please.
Who was rushed?
FMART, Milledge, Mejia, Wilmer Flores, and a bunch of others.
For a time there the only positives people had to say about the Mets prospects were that they were the youngest players at their level.
Clearly you seem to be an Omar fan so I won’t take the debate further. It’s too long of an argument.
No, i’m not an Omar fan I wanted him fired just like anybody else did. What I am against is all these people monday morning quarterbacking and unfairly blaming him for things just because the team lost some big games when they had the opportunity that’s all.
And there’s a LOT of monday morning quarterbacking going on and a LOt of unfair things being attributed to this new front office that I happen to think is doing a TERRIBLE JOB so far. One being what this post is saying that the new FO is putting the focus back on developing the farm and the draft. That’s a lot of BS, the Mets haven’t stopped focusing on the farm as we can see the fruit it’s starting to bear now.
A team like the Braves or NYY would have shipped Pelfrey out years ago, Most teams wouldn’t have signed a free agent to clog up LF with Duda in the farm so he’d be playing there instead of RF. Murphy would be a utility guy or the full time 3B or have been traded. Thole at the most would be a backup with every other team, Parnell and Gee would be in AAA.
Niese, Tejada, Davis would be starters on most teams.
“Most teams wouldn’t have signed a free agent to clog up LF with Duda in the farm so he’d be playing there instead of RF.”
You can’t be serious with that. When the Mets signed Bay, nobody knew who Lucas Duda was – He wasn’t considered a good prospect at that time, and you know that. Parnell and Gee would not be in AAA on most teams – Parnell the last two years has a 3.34 ERA and 97 K’s and 94IP – An AAA pitcher wouldn’t have those numbres in the majors. And Gee pitched very good for us early on, and then ran out of gas at the end of the year. He pitched better than his overall numbers look. He’s a 5th starter on most teams.
Take a deeper look at Parnell’s numbers. They are just not very good. ERA is not a very good way to judge a reliever.
As for Duda in LF, you are right that at the time Duda was not a major prospect but there were other guys that could have been considered in LF as well.
Who was the last LF that the Mets developed? That is what caused the awful Bay contract.
An AAA pitcher isn’t going to strike out that many batters as he did and have an ERA that low in the major leagues. Parnell would dominate AAA hitters. So if a team started him in the minors, he wouldn’t stay there that long because he would just blow them away.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=parnel001rob
Unless you think he suddenly became more than he was in 2010 then I am not so sure about that. Also it’s not just about blowing people away but also learning how to PITCH instead of throw. Right now he throws and in pressure situations tries to get to fine and hangs pitches.
.313 .415 .400 .815 in high leverage situations last year. .346 .417 .462 .878 career
.280 .371 .394 .765 late and close .308 .383 .422 .805 career
.282 .373 .359 .732 men on .298 .376 .402 .778 career
.296 .380 .383 .763 RISP .303 .393 .408 .801 career
Most damning: .252 .327 .335 .662 bases empty.
He had 6 blown saves last year and allowed half of his inherited runners to score while leaving tons of runners on for the next guy.
“Unless you think he suddenly became more than he was in 2010″ I think he has.
“Also it’s not just about blowing people away but also learning how to PITCH instead of throw.”
I understand that. And that’s why I think he can dominate minor leaguers, but not major leaguers.
Yet none of his minor league stats suggest that either. He needs to learn to not have a WHIP of 1.5ish before he becomes effective and learn how to pitch in pressure situations.
But like I told you, I think he’s improved since then.
And back to my main point, no minor league pitcher strikes out that many hitters, and has that low of an ERA in the majors – Even if he does have a high WHIP. Does Parnell have things to work on? Absolutley, but that doesn’t mean that he’s a minor league pitcher.
It does mean that he might need more time to work on those things instead of just getting mop up time in the majors because he continues to choke in the big spot. And yeah the strike outs are nice but ultimately he is not getting enough outs in general. Again I ask what does ERA really tell you about a reliever? Especially one that puts a lot of runners on base? It tells you if the guys behind him were any good because most likely he is leaving the game with runners on.
Well, a lot of time with young players your going to have to suffer through a lot of growing pains, and you can’t just give up on them when they do. Parnell certainly has the talent to be a really good RP. And he’s showed flashes last year where he looked really good too. Sometimes it takes awhile for a pitcher to put it all togteher – Look at John Axford and Joel Hanrahan, they are two of the top closers in the game right now, and Axford never had success until he was 27(the age Parnell is going to be this year), and Hanrahan didn’t have success until he was 28, and struggled mightly before the 2010 season(4.74 ERA, 1.60 WHIP).
I am serious about that Vinny. Back in 2009 I wondered who the back up plan to Murphy was and saw Duda play for Binghamton at both 1B and LF and checked in to see how he was doing during the season. Even in 2009 he was on the radar for a few reasons. Lots of doubles RBI’s and walks. Those are very good indicators for a player in AA.
I was heavily against both Holliday and Bay because I was worried about us running out of players and I’ve always like the idea of a platoon of two seemingly imperfect players for a few years if it will help elsewhere and I thought a Duda/Evans platoon in LF would work well enough and allow for a trade and maybe establish one or even both of those two as well as pick up a player with the 2nd round draft choice. Check out Duda’s #’s in AA in 2009 and tell me what’s not to like. Sometimes being creative brings better results than going big star and I thought at the time that one or both of these guys would be able to give you 80% of Bay by the middle of Bay’s deal and was unnecessary to clog up that position with so many other weaknesses else where like starting pitching, catcher, 2B bullpen ect.
I could see Parnell and Gee in the majors on some teams and I could see both of them blocked on some teams but both of them on one team? Not really. more as AAA callup types which isn’t to say I don’t think they’ll ever be decent Major Leaguers just that with most teams they wouldn’t have stayed up here if they had even been called up by now and may not have gotten the call yet. Relievers that give up as many hits and walks as Parnell and have as high an ERA as he had in the minors aren’t usually called up. Gee I could see as a spot starter swingman but both would have had a tough time being on most teams 25 even right now.
That’s the product of having been the GM here for 6 years, who else could have provided the kids that are here? Even when Duquette was GM one could have said the same about Phillips.
Not comparing their results, under Minaya the farm system was restored to some extent, jist not to the extent necessary.
And to be fair the Johan trade, Duaner Sanchez, and Nady trades were good. John Maine too. Problem is after 2007 he never could make a good deal.
Had he drafted Cameron Maybin instead of Mike Pelfrey we’d probably have Miguel Cabrera right now. But thats all in the past now.
Pelfrey was a very expensive draft pick who slid due to signability issues and even got a Major league deal. Maybin, McCutchen and elsbury probably weren’t considered because he had Beltran, Gomez and Milledge seemingly to take of CF for years to come and knew he needed an ace and Pelfrey was considered that at the time.
The problem in drafting for cost manifests itself more from rounds 2-50 as opposed to round 1. It is here where we are taking college kids who’s experience and peak will be short lived if they suffer even a single lost season or have to repeat a league. That’s unfortunately what has happened to us. That and giving up so many 1st and 2nd rounders just to get competitive and then hoping everything goes as well as possible.
By 2010 the horrendous draft results and stripping of the farm by Phillips left very little from which to deal. Milledge and quantity for Putz in Carp, Vargas, Cleto, Carerra took away what little was left that was anywhere even remotely in the vicinity of the majors except for a couple guys we just couldn’t afford to deal in Niese and Davis.
Well thats where the idea in baseball of “drafting for need” as opposed to taking the best overall players comes in.
Personally I never would draft for need in baseball but thats a debate for another day.
That’s the reality of the situation though. Not saying I agree with that cause I sure don’t but I don’t blame Minaya for taking an ace quality pitcher (which Pelfrey was considered) with the 9th pick because that’s the most difficult piece to acquire and with the coming free agent blitz weren’t likely to be drafting in that position again for a number of years.
I still am of the opinion that had the Mets had no money woes Alderson would not have signed Reyes. He long has been on the record with his not being comfortable with long term contracts. Once the Marlins guaranteed the 6th year and $100M the Mets were simply not going to match it. Up until Reyes signed I felt the Mets would sign him but not because they would guarantee the years but rather that they would pay a little more for him taking less years which was not going to happen once the Marlins guaranteed that 6th year.
Right, why are we assuming that the Marlins would have just said “Oh the Mets matched our deal, we’re done.”? They were star crazy and would have given him 8 years if need be because they know they are not paying him after the first 3 anyway.
Last point of the day.
There seems to be a lot of Pro rebuild / play moneyball or anti rebuild spend like the Yankees thats how you win opinions around here. And not much in between.
Personally I like Sandys approach and on the last thread talked about the Rays new ownership and the success they’ve had.
However, it doesn’t have to be an all or nothing choice. Especially for a big market team thats “supposed” to have money.
I am all in favor of financial flexibility and building with homegrown talent. I didn’t want Pujols or Fielder, not for that $$$.
But the Reyes thing makes zero sense on both levels. He was a home grown star in his prime. The teams spark plug, and fan favorite. At a premium defensive position. To group Reyes with the contracts of Bay, Ollie, KRod, and other failures is a mistake. Those guys couldn’t hold Reyes’ jock.
You’re talking about a guy that was the best player in baseball for the first 3 months last year. A guy that won the batting title based on the quickness of his hands and pitch selection, not his legs. A guy that played a great SS.
Please do not group Reyes in with the Mets failures of the past. And even if you agree with Sandy Aldersons new direction of the franchise (I do), the decision to let Reyes go was a huge mistake. One that was forced upon us by bad contracts (Bay, Santana), and ownerships financial trouble. You could have easily locked up Reyes and Wright and still rebuilt the Mets.
But ownership is in desperate financial trouble. That IS THE BOTTOM LINE.
One of your best articles in a long time Joe.D, well done!
I do not want to sound like sour grapes as I am truly happy over the settlement BUT don’t you think the 900 pound gorilla in the room is the 70 million dollar loss suffered in 2011 and another projected loss of 70 million in 2012. You can’t build The New Mets with these kind of losses, not to mention Mike Pelfrey pitching every 5th day. I just threw that in the end to make the point that money isn’t everything.
Metfan Lou — Your ‘throw in’ contradicts the rest of your message. lol
Off Topic: Daily News is reporting that according to sources the Mets “have closed deals to sell 12 shares of the team and have repaid their $25 million loan to Major League Baseball, a $40 million loan to Bank of America and additional club debt,”
No other outlets have confirmed this account so the usual reader beware should be applied.
Here is the link.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-mets-close-deal-sell-12-minority-shares-team-repaid-25m-loan-mlb-article-1.1047096
Jim Baumbach & Brian Costa are tweeting the same but it is uncertain if they are basing it on their own sources or the same source the Daily News is mentioning.
When I read this, I thought I wrote it for a second!
Which means it was awesome (or about urinals *rimshot*)
By the way, how come people act like the Mets and only the Mets have to deal with injuries? I’m not saying the injury totals weren’t devastating, but you cannot build a MLB team on the premise of “we need to stay healthy all year.” Because it just doesn’t happen.
The injuries were not the only reason the Mets collapsed. Saying so is just feeding an excuse to a weak plan.
The injuries had NOTHING to do with the collapses of 07 & 08 and nobody here ever mentioned that they were. I thought that was very clear – unless of course you want to put words in people’s mouths and twist other people’s meanings around cuz that’s what you do. So you’re just creating that from thin air.
The injuries that you KNOW everybody is talking about broke the bridge that would’ve kept the Mets in competition from 2009 to 2011 WHILE the farm came to fruition.
So if not for injuries AFTER 2008 the Mets could have very well remained contenders from 2009 to present and Omar still be here WHILE the farm produced. Injuries prevented that.
2009 would have at best been the same as 2007 and 2008 even without the injuries because the pitching was horrendous.
Pelfrey, Redding and Livan all had ERA’s over 5! Redding’s ERA as a starter in the first half was over 8!
Maine’s injury was “shoulder fatigue” from not building it up enough after off season shoulder surgery which he should have had in the middle of 2008 or he should have stayed in FLA to build it back up in April and May. Niese got hurt while the medical staff stood right next to him and wouldn’t have pitched any better than Figgy and Misch did anyway and Johan wouldn’t have been shut down at the end of August if we weren’t already out of it and Putz arrived injured and in need of surgery just a question of when.
2009 was doomed before opening day with a pitching staff like we had. One good starter, one good reliever and that’s it.
Yeah we were one game away in 2008 with what as a record? In the NL East? We were broken most of that season and would have been more broken in 2009 regardless of injury.
Let’s recap the injuries from 09:
Our starting Catcher
Our starting 1stbaseman
Our starting SS
Our starting 3rdbaseman
Our starting CF
Our starting RF
Our backup LF
Our backup CF
Our back up middle infielder
Our Number 1 starter
Our 3rd starter
Our 4th starter
Our 6th starter
Our 7th starter
Our 8th starter
Our 8th inning guy
In total, the Mets players spent over 1,480 days on the DL. Which is was the most of any team in the majors.
” Redding’s ERA as a starter in the first half was over 8!”
Maybe because he was hurt? He started the year on the DL, if you remember.
No I didn’t remember Redding being hurt. Apparently he was hurt in ST and missed April and half of May. I didn’t realize that. We probably shouldn’t have been pitching him just like Maine in 2008, Putz in 2009, Looper in 2005 ect ect but again there is never anyone else and it’s been this way forever. Gooden even pitched after failing a drug test knowing it was his last outing before being suspended for a year.
Redding did get hurt but I’m not convinced that the success of the pitching staff hinged on him. Sanatana pitched until Aug 20th or so, Livan and Pelfrey were healthy all year, Perez was a real disappointment and that may have been caused by the jumpers knee he had surgery for in August. Maine and Putz were rehabbing injuries from the year before, Misch and Figgy did as much as could have been asked and Nieve’s injury hurt for sure but the pen wasn’t any good either other than Feliciano. Even K-Rod didn’t have a good year. Lots of depth and to be fair there were injuries to the staff but some of those were made worse by pitching guys before they ready.
Not the pitching staff a contending team, more like a staff where you have to out score the other team 4 days out of 5 like in 2007 and 2008 and go through K-Rods high wire act most 9th innings.
I am pretty sure Redding was even injured when they signed him.
Vinny:
Here’s my issue with your list. And let me be clear I’m not saying injuries didn’t have an impact on 2009. I’m saying that every GM should be prepared for injuries and if your team is REALLY good enough, winning only 70 games “because of injuries” is not a valid excuse.
Our starting Catcher – But the starting catcher was Brian Schneider….
Our starting 1st baseman – Delgado, valid though he was 37 years old so I’m not sure banking on a healthy 37 year old is the best strategy
Our starting SS – Reyes, valid
Our starting 3rdbaseman – Wright didn’t play in 18 games. I don’t think this is fair to be on the list with having as big of an impact as Reyes
Our starting CF – Beltran played half season, but valid
Our starting RF – His name was Ryan Church and Jeff Francoeur and combined they played 142 games, so I don’t see this as valid
Our backup LF – Sheffield? 40 years old.
Our backup CF – Pagan?
Our back up middle infielder – This would actually be Tatis who played 125 games, so I don’t think this is fair. Plus Cora played 82 games.
Our Number 1 starter – Santana missed what 6 starts?
Our 3rd starter – Was Livan Hernandez.
I got bored with your list. Here’s the problem.
You’re equating injuries with failure. And you’re ignoring the fact that some of the players who actually got injured were either old and fragile or just not all that good.
In 2010, the Boston Red Sox spent the most time on the DL with over 1,100 days. they went 89-73.
I’m not saying injuries do not play a role, I’m saying you don’t go 70-92 just because of injuries. I’m also saying the 2009 Mets would not have been better than the 2009 Phillies who won 93 games.
People mock the little signings of Alderson, but they don’t realize that half of those guys are AAA caliber players who could come up to the bigs if a 2009 situation occurred.
That’s the job of the GM, not only to focus on a 25 man roster or your Single A team but to build enough organizational depth so that if you do suffer bad luck with injuries, you don’t turn in a 70-92 season.
Plus Cora, Wright and a couple of others didn’t get hurt till August, after the Mets were out of it. So losing those guys didn’t cost the season, the season was already gone.
And was Sandy prepared for them last year and this one?
Who is your CF and C if Torres or Thole goes down?
If Wright doesn’t come back who plays third? A guy Sandy got us? Murphy? If so who plays 2nd?
If Santana gets hurt is Wheeler coming in to replace him? Or is Harvey?
It’s patently UNFAIR to expect a GM only 4 years into huis tenure to have a boat load of kids to come up and replace injuries to all stars you can not predict!
And if you don’t think so then Sandy is just as unprepared as Omar was except one thing.
Omar has so far won more games with an injured lineup than Sandy has with a decently healthy one!
So I’ll let you pick how fair being prepared for injuries a GM should be and then I will hold you to it when it happens to Sandy!
When has Sandy had a decently healthy lineup?
Wright, Reyes, Davis, Murphy, Johan, all significant time injured or on the DL.
Yes, last year the injuries killed us also. But 09 was by far the worst.
Exactly,
Even just having a healthy Chris Young and Ike Davis for the whole year would have changed the path of the season entirely! The Mets could have been relevant into September if those 2 were healthy and could have changed the strategy and K-Rod and Beltran could’ve still been with the team.
You just never know. Not saying they could’ve gone into the post season but staying alive into September could’ve helped infused more CASH into the till, even though Alderson had a terrible off season that year too and only gave a half-hearted attempt to compete in my opinion
Don’t forget that Wright played most of the season with a broken back too. And what about the injuries on the minor league level? Kirk Nieuwenhuis, Mejia, and Lutz probably would have been called up because of the injuries to Pagan, Young, and Wright, if they didn’t get hurt.
So, it’s not just that guys like Pagan, Young, and Wright get hurt, the backups to them get hurt also. How can you overcome injuries to your starters AND your backups?
So Omar gets a pass because of the injuries in 2009 but Sandy does not? Should either?
“So Omar gets a pass because of the injuries in 2009 but Sandy does not? Should either?”
Ask jessup he is the one who set the conditions for pass fail!
He said Omar failed because he wasn’t prepared for the injries and as a result if we take that as the pass fail bar Sandy failed just as much if not more!
Because the only options Sandy has available to replace Injuries are the gys Jessup claims Omar failed to get!
All I can say is that if were just going to draft one tool position players out of college we’re never going to have a well conceived bench because our bench guys are starters.
If we’re going to draft college relief pitchers when we keep our early round draft choices we’re never going to have a good rotation and probably never have a good pen either since those college relief pitchers are dominating with just one pitch and not developing any others.
This whole problem could have been so easily solved even with spending all the 1st and 2nd round picks that we did if only the team had gone overslot for the best available HS talent left on the board in the 3rd – 10th rounds.
That’s all it would have taken. 8 guys a year and an extra 4 M in the draft TOPS would have produced 3 or 4 bullpen arms, a couple of starting pitchers, two catchers and a couple of well rounded corner OFer’s, all up here or on the way making league minimum which would allow us to pay Reyes and the goods in the farm to get Halliday and pay him too or Lee in FA or hell maybe even both.
A little seed money every year. 4 M for six years, about the same cost as 4 year of Luis Castillo.
Was it? Or was it the worse because it came after the collapse at the end of 2008?
But he was prepared much better than Omar…Just ask jessup!
If Omar was knocked for not being prepared why is Sandy given a pass?
HUH?
Hmm, maybe because Omar’s payroll was 150M and Sandy was stuck with the results of that 150M payroll. An injured Johan, awful Bay, awful Perez and awful Castillo. There’s your money for backups.
Payroll was even higher than that in 2009…They didn’t win then either!
How much money did we lose that year?
How much we going to lose this year do you know?
I do!
If attendance is the EXACT SAME as last year (unlikely more likely lower) then they will lose 20 Mil!
That still puts Sandy 20 Mil in the loss column compared to Omar’s highest spending, profitable season!
And truth is Sandy may not even win as many games as 2010!
Again the students are getting restless in the room but here goes…
Never mind, I just read your rant on trading everyone because I thought Beltran was too much of a health risk.
Our discussions are pointless.
Oh and it shold be pointed out Sandy only had 10 Mil less and that was his decision not Wilpons!
He could have resigned Reyes or signed someone worth putting in the Pen if he hadn’t shopped at KMart to win more games and stop all thopse blown saves after he ensured there was no closer to close those games after July!
Yes our discussions are pointless because all your doing is running around the same circle of excuses for Sandy cutting payroll and making deals that you have yet to prove helped even ONE of the goals you claim they were meant to help!
You got Wheeler and thats it!
Three All Stars and Wheeler is the only future help you got!
Do you really think you can evaluate a team that has it’s players on the DL 1,480 days? And most of that is from All stars, such as Reyes, Beltran, and Delgado. Not only that, but a fact some people forget was that the Mets were in 1st place before the injuries to Reyes and Beltran.
The only two starters that didn’t go on the DL for the Mets were Murphy and Castillo, and the only starting pitching that were healthy was Pelfrey and Livan – That’s how you only win 70 games. And if Redding didn’t get hurt, does Livan even start the season? The Mets only had 3-4 of their starters play the whole season, you can’t overcome that.
How many did they have last year?
Bay, Beltran/Duda, Thole?
Livan was healthy all year he was just bad. 5.47 ERA bad. Got cut because he was so bad and picked up by Washington.
Santana pitched great all year and was shut down at the end of August when we were out of it to get a jump start on off season elbow surgery to remove bone chips which is something many pitchers with half the balls of Johan pitch through until the seasons done.
Maine was hurt the prior year and not 2009. He went on the DL with “shoulder fatigue” from not having the time to build it back up following off season shoulder surgery. Basically his 2008 injury was never fully rehabbed so it cost him 2009 as well and maybe even his career.
Putz was a surgery waiting to happen when he arrived here, he even said so himself and also said the only physical he got from the Mets was in ST, then they let him go pitch in the WBC..
Perez’ knee injury (jumpers knee) could very well have caused him to be so bad we’ll never know but being put on the DL for 2 months and then having surgery in late August was basically the same thing the Mets did with Maine the year before and if anything Perez was worse the next year after his surgery, rehab and off season boot camp arranged by Borass.
Redding got hurt in ST and missed the first 6 weeks. Was he rushed back as well? Probably was. Hasn’t been in the Majors since the end of 2009 and pitched to an 8.00 ERA the first half when he came back.
Niese was a real freaky deal. Strained his groin or hamstring covering 1B and while Jerry and Rey Ramirez stood next to him tore the hamstring tendon right off the bone trying to see is he could have continued. Probably would have been lost for the season without that but who can really say for sure? Niese could have been a shot in the arm but the success or failure of the 2009 rotation didn’t hinge on him and he hasn’t pitched any better in 2010 or 2011 than he did in 2009 and even in the minors has faded down the stretch.
One thing you can say for sure is all these guys were not put on the DL or given appropriate time to rehab their injuries because there was never anyone else and that started right from the middle of the prior year and what exactly were the benefits of sending pitchers to the WBC, especially injured ones?
Nieve’s injury came in June and that one really did hurt and there was just nothing that could have been done about it before or after but Parnell wasn’t good, either were Stokes and Green and K-Rod wasn’t very good either. He was almost always successful but it was agonizing watching his high wire act every single night out and mentally he just never gave his team a breather in the 9th inning. Every single save was a 25 pitch battle with a hit and a walk, multiple foul balls on 3-2 counts and the tying run in scoring position seemingly every single night. Each save had the felling of escaping from Alcatraz.
Minaya did provide tons of depth with that rotation and to be fair Figgy and Misch pitched as well as you could have hoped but no rotation with Santana, Pelfrey, Perez, Maine, Livan, Redding, Figgy and Misch could be considered anything more than a 2nd division rotation even without the injuries. Not saying it couldn’t have gotten us to the post season just that the chances of it weren’t very good and the offense would have to carry the rotation big time, the defense would have to be good including Murphy in LF and the pen would have had to be much better than it was or it would have just been 2008 all over again.
Very well put. True fans will always love their team, through good years and bad. If they don’t, can they really consider themselves “fans”?
Nice article. From the beginning bring in Alderson was about putting the adult in the room. Someone that could separate himself from the popular opinions and loyalty and make decisions that were right for the Mets as an organization for the long-term. We can all disagree on if it is happening or not but we will not know until he has had a real chance to put that plan in place.
Good article holmes.
As mentioned in other posts, the drastic moves that the organization made, including the contracting of a financial consulting firm, is indicative that the Wilpon’s financial problems went way beyond the civil suit and that today’s ruling deals with less being added to those burdens but no alleviation of what they currently find themselves in.
They lost a half-billion dollars due to being swindled and they also lost the high percentage of dividends revenue that allowed them to incur tremendous debt they counted on those dividends at least in part to pay those loans back.
Not to mention the hard hit Sterling Equities took in the real-estate market.
The attached article from the Wall Street Journal, though written before today’s settlement, sums up those problems.
http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/null/2011/12/4827317/mets-owners-end-2011-downgrade-how-much-more-will-market-bear
Now, that’s not to say that Sterling can’t weather the storm over the years and bounce back – which is often the case. But it does imply that the moves being made by the Mets the last 18 months were not related to baseball. Yes, they could have cut back on their spending and become more prudent with the way they ran the club financially but something had to be wrong if they needed to take out loans in order to meet operating expenses two years in a row. That $70 million loss in 2011 was more than made up in revenue the Mets generated for Sterling’s other holdings, including SNY and merchandising. Financially, the parent company had to be on very shaky footing.
Though the team underachieved it was not one that had to be completely dismantled. And knowing the Wilpon’s desire to win, getting rid of KRod and Beltran when the Mets were just five games out in the loss column almost two thirds into the season – along with the kids playing inspired and confident baseball – makes absolutely no sense except if their total assets (not just the Mets) were off the wall. Teams can build up the minors and remain competitive on the major league level at the same time. That’s the situation the Mets were in. Outside circumstances forced the Wilpons to break up the club (just like they did with the overall organization) and spinning it to the public as “rebuilding” is pure bull.
Hi Joey D,
Unless you feel the Mets should of allowed Krod and his $17M option to vest the Mets simply were not going to allow that to happen. This was no secret around MLB and it was just a matter of when and how they were going to get around it not if.
The Beltran trade it was indeed the waving of the white flag. The GM himself said it would be earlier in the month if it happened. I understand you feel the Mets had a shot and I am not going to suggest your wrong for thinking that but what I will say is that to me the chances were slim and the Mets never got more than 4 games above .500 and that happened once then quickly followed with a 5 game losing streak. They played above themselves just to get to the 4 games above .500 in my opinion. and even removing myself from the equation the person that needed to believe they had a real shot didn’t and made the move to get what he got at the time which many in the media agreed was a better than expected deal all things considered.
NL Overall
Tm W L W-L% GB RS RA pythW-L%
PHI 57 34 .626 – 384 295 .618
ATL 54 38 .587 3.5 365 312 .571
SFG52 40 .565 5.5 332 322 .514
MIL 49 43 .533 8.5 405 406 .499
ARI 49 43 .533 8.5 416 407 .510
STL 49 43 .533 8.5 433 407 .528
PIT 47 43 .522 9.5 354 346 .510
NYM46 45 .505 11.0 399 388 .513
At the time of the Krod trade. Not to mention that if they had kept him then they were on the hook for a crap ton of money. At the time of that trade a rookie in Duda was your 1B, Thole at C, Turner your 2B, Tejada your SS, Murphy your 3B, Bay your left fielder, a struggling Pagan in CF and a guy in RF who no one even expected to hold up that long.
PHI 65 39 .625 – 444 345 .613
SFG61 44 .581 4.5 377 359 .522
ATL 61 45 .575 5.0 428 382 .552
ARI 57 48 .543 8.5 475 451 .524
MIL 57 49 .538 9.0 452 456 .496
PIT 54 49 .524 10.5 394 387 .508
STL 55 50 .524 10.5 492 453 .538
NYM54 51 .514 11.5 476 460 .516
At the time of the Beltran trade the Mets were 3 games over .500 their competition was 16 games over. You gonna risk keeping Beltran and the slight hope of playing 13 games over .500 the rest of the way while hoping that the Braves ONLY played .500 ball.
Remote change of us getting into post season – even with both KRod and Beltran – IMO.
So I had no problem with either move.
Making sure KRod’s option didn’t vest was reason enough to deal him when they did. We got lucky the Brewers were willing to make that move and that we dealt him before that missing 10 team No Trade Clause could be called into play.
Beltran for Wheeler was just icing on the cake. As much as I hated to see Beltran go, what we got back for him was way more than anyone thought we’d get in April, if anything.
*Remote chance
Yup that issue in Krod’s contract is often missed. Not only the option but the fact that for a little while longer he couldn’t even block the trade.
man, Joe D you sure have drank the Alderson Kool-Aid by the gallon. This is what you said back on June 9, 2010 (which is less than 2 years ago):
“Omar Minaya takes it on the chin a lot on this site, but truth be told, Minaya has put the future of this franchise on a path toward excellence and domination with the infusion of young talent he has given this franchise which was sadly broken and in complete tatters when he took over. His ability to find and evaluate talent at the minor league levels has been overlooked and underrated. Minaya took an organization that literally had nothing left in the tank and refueled it with prospects that are oozing with talent and eager to realize their potential. What was once a barren wasteland is now a fountain of youth, promise, hope and potential.”
Now this is what you say today:
“The days of dominating the back pages of the newspapers in November and December are at an end, and the race to start dominating the division by a sound approach to team-building is on. It may take a few years as it did with Frank Cashen back in the early eighties, but make no mistake that the similarities in how these two men approach achieving sustainable success is not all that dissimilar.
Their blueprint is quite simple: Build a good core of players through solid drafting, scouting the international free agent market, and making productive trades for good young talent. Once you have achieved that and have constructed a solid foundation at the major league level, fill-in those remaining one or two pieces like the Mets did with Donn Clendenon in 1969, Gary Carter in 1985, and Mike Piazza in 1998.”
Actually i prefer the days of dominating the back pages in November & December. At least if we’re doing that that means the Mets are in it or getting back in it. Now I know somebody is gonna respond with “well derr, i’d rather we do it with the farm, yadda, yadda, yadda,” As if i don’t already know it.
All i’m saying is when the Mets are making a splash in the off season – things are going better around here.
Second guessing the moves and forgetting everything in the past? That’s another story
“Actually i prefer the days of dominating the back pages in November & December. At least if we’re doing that that means the Mets are in it or getting back in it.”
Bonilla, Bobby
Saberhagen, Brett
Wagner, Billy
Bay, Jason
Perez, Oliver
You win the World Series in October, not December.
Sure, you can be selective if you choose.
You pick those guys and I’ll pick these guys instead:
Mike Piazza, Al Leiter, Robin Ventura, Todd Zeile, Turk Wendell, Cliff Floyd, Dennis Cook, Carlos Beltran, Carlos Delgado, Paul LoDuca, and so on
Ya, 2 of those guys were big money free agents, chief. Most of what you listed were acquired in trades.
Guess you haven’t heard, the marlins aren’t providing us with all their best players anymore. Piazza, Leiter, Delgado and lo Duca were an unexpected opportunity, not a basic plan.
How often does a division rival furnish a team with it’s best players anyway? Did the blue Jays hand over Jose Bautista to the NYY? Did the Rays fork over Matt Garza to the Red Sox? Did the Nationals send Ryan Zimmerman to the Phillies?
Those situations are very rare and most likely never to be seen again.
Ventura had 1 great year and a couple of mediocre ones and was turned into a salary dump. Zeile had a couple ordinary seasons and was a dump himself. That’s part of the reason Omar had very little when he got here. The farm had been stripped, #1 and #2 picks were turned into 1 year solutions and then salary dumped.
That’s why the farm had no pitching in it and very little else that panned out in the Majors either.
I guess maybe you missed a memo or two?
We are now giving THEM our best players….for Comp picks and not much else!
Again shades of gray. Once you have developed a decent core then you can go out and get the support you need in FA. If you are having to rely on FA all the time to purchase your core players, then you will most likely be doomed to fail. Why did they have to give big money and long term commitments to guys like Bay and Perez? Because they did not develop them. Is spending money bad? Nope. Are all long-term contracts bad? Nope. Are giving those 2 things to non-franchise players a sound strategy? Nope. A guy like Matt Cain? Most likely worth the money and the contract, even Johan, worth the risk. Beltran? Worth the risk. Jason Bay? Nada. Jason Werth? Nada. Prince? Yeah.
..and your first post back on June in 2010 just backs up what i said today, the bridge from 2008 to present was broken only by catastrophic injuries otherwise most likely he’d still be here today and who knows? Maybe Bobby V is the manager. Instead all he all the off-the-field stuff happened and then he was fired.
And now we have a lousy GM who punted last off season and this one too with terrible spending of whatever little money he had. But you like him now.
Only a dope would try to imply that Sandy Alderson could spend money that Fred, Jeff and Saul didn’t give him.
only an old dope would think that’s what i just said
Monkeyball is doomed to failure, especially in the post steroid era. It has never worked here and will never work here. The only success monkeyball has ever enjoyed is with the Marlins back in 2003 and Cabrerra, Becket and Willis had something to do with that as well.
Our version of monkeyball won 66 games that same year.
Winning the off season is not the same thing as winning the World Series.
yeah it was such a failure when that curveball came to Beltran right?
Was such a failure in the week before the last week in September …TWO YEARS STRAIGHT!
How much further past those two meaningful septembers has this Moneyball taken us so far huh?
You can ignore the success Omar got within a year of taking over but that doesn’t it never happened and any success was a failure all because it didn’t win a WS like the Phillies and Braves did ONCE in 10 years!
One contention, I don’t think Alderson is responsible for the payroll slashing. That was going to happen one way or the other. Alderson is here to do it in a way that is best for the long term success of the team.
You know what this comment section needs more than anything? Shades of Gray. Why does it always have to be 100% one way or the other? I am guessing that the Wilpons did demand a lot of payroll slashing and that during the interviews Sandy most likely said you need to cut some of this bloated payroll and spend more intelligently instead of wasting money, years and roster spots for multiple years on guys like Bay, Perez, Castillo…
It’s all making more sense now but I am still waiting for the Sports Illustrated tell-all article about how MLB represented by Commissioner Selig and long time close friend of Met owner Fred Wilpon entered into an agreement in which MLB supported the Met franchise as Met ownership rehabilitated it’s finances.
Excellent analysis and well said.
What is wrong with you people, why compare santana as a pitcher to oliver perez. Can we be real. I mean perez is a jerk period, i blame his so called agent boras for the money he tooked from the mets, cus he really begged the mets to give it to him cus he was a lefty. johan santana i know if it wasn’t for an injury, he would be the pitcher he was, but perez’z story now that’s different, at start santana wa doing what he does, but perez, please. just like bay, well bay is way out their in his mind, please it’s all ablout mind games for him. But if we had a hitting coach that can tell him about the whole in his bat, bay would be on bay watch once again. Like i said it’s all about direction. The mets as awhole can’t handle it or their players cus they don’t no how to draft these young players to bring them up right thru the system, so what if the mets would have at least offered a 4 year deal with an optionf for a 5th year all together with 80 million we would have reyes still in a mets uniform, he’s better than what we have now., but if the wilpons and sandy really whated to help us the mets why not sign to bring in pitching, a good hitter, better fielder, cus like i said they don’t care at all. another losing season for us mets fans is that what they really want cus that’s what it seems.
I understand all the rationale behind getting rid of both KRod and Beltran and with the Mets being only three games above .500. I won’t even raise the counterpoint (OK, guess I am LOL) that it’s not been unusual to see teams at the .500 mark make the push and get to the playoffs. And I will also concede to the consensus opinion that having played eleven games over .500 for half a season since that horrible start they could indeed have already reached their peak. And by making the moves they did, they did obtain Zach Wheeler and saved multiple millions of dollars instead of nothing at all.
But IMHO, that’s looking at the situation objectively from the position of a black and white business and accounting perspective and ignoring the emotional impact that is just as important if one wants to build a competitor. This is similar to the back and forth exchanges we’ve had regarding computer analysis by computer savvy individuals with limited baseball knowledge on the professional level versus the insight, intuition and thought processes of those with years of experience within the game who are behind the times as far as advanced analysis is concerned.
My point being is that baseball is a game played by athletes whose goal is to win. I don’t believe anyone on the 25 man roster did not have enough faith and confidence in themselves to feel they could make it all the way to October. They did not think they were playing over their heads. And this was a young team that was coming together as a unit and finding success. Being just five games out in the loss column with just a bit more than a third of the season to go, what would the affects be of the front office taking away that opportunity from them? That the front office didn’t have enough faith in them? That they were playing their hearts out and the front office rewarded them with a vote of no confidence?
Again, this was primarily a young team, not like the 2006-8 units that were made up of veterans only able to give us one more shot. They were playing inspired ball and learning. There spirits were high and their confidence growing. Who in his right mind would want to pull the plug off a season that was providing so much unexpected hope for the future? Even if they stumbled as most expected them to, they would have done the stumbling on their own and because of that, with more experience under their belt, could believe in better times ahead. The momentum built up would carry over to 2012 and beyond. That is a consideration not to be taken lightly for where is that momentum now? Even if they find themselves again in a playoff hunt they will be playing under the specter of again losing a highly paid player who was helping in the contribution.
Yes, on paper the moves looked smart. But from the human element, it showed no support from the front office. And for the human psyche, that does an awful lot of damage. It is demoralizing for young players want to have hope and if they saw Sandy prematurely throw in the towel for them once already, they no doubt believe it could happen again – no matter what they do.
I wonder how much pent up anger that generates inside as well? Will we see a mass exodus like Charlie Finlay experienced as they approach free agent status?
So I do not believe a winning franchise can be run when those in charge of molding a team depend more on a computer and cold business objectivity and ignoring the emotional fallout on the part of the players. There are long-term effects that could cause these short-term solutions to blow up in the front office’s faces – just like Omar did by patching together a team dominated by veterans that looked at 2006 but not much beyond that.
I cannot expect the Mets to say we are broke and cannot afford to put together a competitor and thus are dismantling the team not due to the caliber of play on the field. Of course not. But I do think that as fans, we can.
I have no argument with anyone taking the opinion that the reality being what it is, the Wilpons are in a financial bind and have no choice. My disagreement is only with defending these moves on the grounds of rebuilding and them making good baseball sense instead.
P.S. Will admit my theory about Pelfrey pitching good in years ending in an even number isn’t looking so good at this point.
Of course athletes will always believe they can compete. I’d expect nothing less. The job of the GM is to think with his mind and not his heart when it comes to making the hard decisions. Athletes can and will always believe they can compete despite the odds and fans can also believe with their hearts that their team can compete but a GM is not afforded such a courtesy. MLB players I would think know this and though some may not like it they understand the reality of it nonetheless.
Point being sometimes the hard decision has to be made where you have to weigh what the best interest is short term as opposed to long term for the team and if that decision is the unpopular one you have to be able to do what you think is right regardless.
Momentum is what comes of a new season. That a MLB Player will somehow be affected and play any less due to his “human psyche” being damaged the prior season then that is a player I consider weak and don’t need on the Mets. Assuming that is if a player indeed has had his “human psyche” damaged to begin with which is something that can only be speculated upon.
Hi North,
Disagree with you somewhat on this one. A good boss (not just a GM) of any kind has to think with both his mind and his heart. Sometimes the decisions are personally painful but it’s his wisdom that also causes him often to not to act in haste. It’s that combination that results in a more productive work force.
Regarding athletes, yes, I heard many a Met player say at the time they understood that business was business. But don’t forget players also acknowledge the existence of a losing attitude in many a clubhouse and a winning one in others and how that does permeate and manifests itself on the field. Jim Bouton made that very clear in “Ball Four” during the down years in New York. We saw it during the Art Howe years. We see it all the time in teams that give up in the sixth inning. It is real and it exists. So don’t underestimate what a winning 2011 season would have done for this club, even if that was just an 84-78 reversal in the won-lost record.
Despite a poor spring training, teams can still exhibit that winning spirit. I don’t see that with this group. I heard it from Murphy over the winter but this spring I don’t hear the players giving the press the customary line saying they are going to surprise a lot of people. Sandy might be, but I don’t see it much from the players. And some of the older players didn’t take kindly to Jeff’s well meaning but probably ill advised underdog tee shirts.
People are not robots and have emotions. Take many of us fans. How many of us don’t go to Met games anymore not because of the team on the field or even the ticket prices as it the feeling of being jilted by an ownership that caters to those with more money to spend? Even with the cost of ticket prices being outrageous, I would have still enjoyed myself had most all the entrances been open for me, had all the escalators been able to take me to my seat level and had my view of left field not been cut in half for the sake of the patrons in the exclusive restaurant below. I left Citi Field with the feeling that I was satisfied that I finally saw it and felt no compelling urge to venture there again.
In fact, I was able to visit with an old high school friend of mine who I hadn’t seen in more than 40 years but recently got connected again via Facebook. Like me, he was a die-hard Met fan. But when he came over to my seats he seemed just as disgusted not being able to see 15 feet to the right of Jason Bay as I was. He also mentioned that the new ballpark felt completely commercialized and lacked the warmth that Shea Stadium had. Might be the stubbornness of two old, original new breeders, but we both felt it nevertheless.
Guess I got off the subject with those last two paragraphs…, sorry ’bout that.
Hi Joey D,
“A good boss (not just a GM) of any kind has to think with both his mind and his heart.” I don’t disagree with this entirely. The point is that often times not all decisions in general but rather some of the harder decisions are difficult due to the emotional impact the decision will have as a result and in my opinion hard decisions should be made cause they are right and not because of emotion.
Acknowledging as you say the existence of a losing attitude by players I can understand I just don’t think trading away Krod & Beltran last year in this case will manifest itself on the field. I may be wrong but I just don’t see it in this case.
As far as players not saying this year that they are going to surprise a lot of people I can only add that I am pretty sure Ike Davis for one has said he thinks they are better than people say and I would have to look into it but I would say Murphy & Wright have as well.
I am not sure how to read the “People are not robots and have emotions” comment except to say that I agree and I apologize if I inferred anything different.
I can’t speak to the Citi Field experience because I have yet to go but I will say I know myself enough to say that while I would hate sitting in a seat with a blind spot in the corner outfields I don’t think it would affect the overall experience. My trips to Shea I treasured them all even though I didn’t enjoy sitting back beneath the mezzanine section and not being able to see the Diamond vision when it played a video or sitting in the front reserved seats of the Loge section with my knees hitting up against the concrete or way up in the upper decks with people sitting practically on top of me spilling stuff.
Yea we got a lil off subject but the memories are worth it.
Anyway I guess we will have to agree to disagree on some of this and watch to see if some of your concerns manifest themselves this season.
Have a good night Joey D.
Hi North,
That comment about not being robots had nothing to do with you but rather to point out that one can’t make decisions in black and white and not consider the human element for it is quite often counter-productive and results in disharmony.
Thanks for explaining Joey D.
in this case, I don’t buy the “the FO doesn’t have faith in us so lets give up” concept. The players know how to read, and knew the unique situation the team was in. That, and they no way had the SP to make a run like the Cards did realistically.
KRod was traded as a saving the finances move, but getting wheeler was too good to pass up when that offer came down.
Anyway, still a 1 time deal. No way if they are actually close are they trading off a key guy again.
Couldn’t agree more Stick. It’s hard to believe that any Met fan would not be ecstatic with the chance at getting a potential front end caliber talent for a 2 month rental who was not coming back here and wouldn’t have allowed us to net any compensation had we kept him for the rest of the year. Sandy threw in the towel on a 500 at best team. He blew a shot at 500 for the chance of obtaining the type of pitcher we haven’t developed in 20+ years. Amazing! Maybe he doesn’t reach his ceiling but if given that chance 100 times, I do it 100 times.
Hi Fonzi,
You know I’m one of those who wasn’t estatic, not about obtaining a Zach Wheeler, but rather the manner in which we did.
Again, it comes down to perspective. If one saw the 2011 unit in terms of the future in just Davis, Duda and Murphy and not the rest of the young supporting cast (Gee, Niese, Thole, etc) then making the move on paper seems logical. A tough decision but one I would support.
Its just that I see more promise in so many more of the players on the current club and do strongly believe that the winning attitude these young kids were developing was vital for the future. If one believes most of the kids on the current roster are the steps to our future, one does not throw away a season holding so much promise for the future for a prospect, not matter how highly rated.
And from a fan’s perspective (which as we know isn’t always exactly rational) in early July I don’t think there were many who weren’t excited about this team and thought they had a legitimate chance at pulling off what Arizona was doing in the West. We sure couldn’t wait for the next game to start.
Joey,
Arizona had a clear route to the playoffs and two paths to get there. We had one closed on us early and the other one had 7.5 games to make up and six teams to hurdle.
The 2011 Wild Card was not a realistic possibility by any stretch considering we had so many teams to pass. Arizona only had to pass one.
K-Rod was just one more in a long long history of Met salary dumps the most egregious one being the Wagner dump that cost us two first round draft choices. Just a straight up money deal that’s been going on here forever.
Duda also hit better than Beltran after the trade and no guarantee the same thing happens here but Carlos did in fact miss two weeks in SF.
Young players are interested in establishing themselves and winning jobs or getting the upper hand on winning a job in the future and Duda having a full 2 months to play RF is invaluable to his performance this year. Remember Murphy in 2009?
As for Wheeler I’d take his promise over the reality of Redding, Perez, Lawrence, Williams, Munoz, Sosa……………………………..
Hi T,
Yup, Arizona had the advantage of being in the National League West while we were buried in the East. That’s how come I think had we been in that other division we’d be seen as having an outside chance of winning the title or getting into the wild card – would love to play the any four of those clubs – D’Backs, Giants, Dodgers, Padres and Rockies 18 times a year instead of Phillie, Atlanta, the Nats and Marlins.
But regarding 2011, I think we both have valid points and simply have different perspectives of how things should be pursued. Tonight Ron Darling emphasized how important it is to have as many arms in the minors as possible since only a small percentage of them ever make it to the bigs. Wheeler could very well be one of them. I don’t disagree with that and, believe it or not, I really don’t think the Mets would have made post-season had the deals not been made and the injuries had not befallen us. But I think we would have made a good try and our faith in the front office would not have been shaken – not to mention the experience, momentum, maturity…, ya know what I mean.
I really do wish that it didn’t have to come down to needing to dump salary so badly – it would have been nice to see what decision the front office would have made with the team 7-1/2 (and five in the loss column) out and playing so well. What do you think? If the Mets were able to absorb (not willingly but able to nonetheless) the bonus and all that was still tied up in those two players would Sandy still have broken up the team? If still approached by the Giants and the offer for Wheeler still came up would he have gone for it knowing the young arms we already had in the organization? And would he had instead tried to get some sort of help through waivers or deals that did not involve parting with our top young prospects?
I don’t know the answer to that and agree that us fans perspectives are not exactly skilled in making judgement that needs to be left to the professionals. I do know that, as fans, it was exciting to watch the team before the trades were made and mostly upsetting after that.
And can anyone blame them? The organization was hyping the wild-card race as much as possible on SNY, reminding us how close the Mets were getting by flashing the wild-card standings and playing scoreboard watching throughout the broadcasts. The broadcasts ended with “the Mets continue their drive toward the wild-card tomorrow…..”. Sandy was talking about the big games coming up too. Same too with Bobby O and Chris Carllin during the pre and post game shows. It seems everybody involved really thought we had something good going for us.
Understand the marketing value but does that mean what they were really giving us was just another bunch of BS? They’re counting on a lot of fans coming back and I’m not too sure how many of them really will. But that’s another topic for another day. All I know is tonight I’m concerned about our center fielder coming off the field limping.
Maybe a Wright or a Dickey are upset but if those guys are the type to lay down because the FO is thinking about the future then so be it. You think Duda is upset that the Mets added Wheeler by trading Beltran and opening up a spot for him?
TR,
There is a difference between having a losing attitude and laying down. That is having a lead in the sixth inning and hoping they won’t blow it, a player trying too hard because he thinks he has to pick up for others, one thinking get the lead runner instead of the sure out at first along with the whole team pressing in tight situations instead of getting it’s competitive juices flowing.
We’ve seen this in all teams with losing attitudes. Duda, Murphy and other young players can be prone to this just like anyone else. We saw this happen the last two months of the season while we didn’t after that horrible start.
I’m not trying to say this is written in stone. But I am trying to point out that the moves the Mets made last summer were not the only options for thinking of the future and had finances been different, I don’t think we’d be talking about Zach Wheeler.
I disagree, with Sandy the Mets were trading a lame duck Beltran for Wheeler regardless of finances. Now if they had been say 8-10 games over .500 at the time and a couple of games back of one team? They might have re-thought it. That being said, how much did trading Beltran hurt the Mets anyway? Perhaps the Mets knew that Duda was ready.
Ahhh so you believe beltran’s career was over then….IC…
You should take a gander at the Cardinal Roster!
Also at his signed contract!
Two years at 13 Mil…And much more contribution than that 15 Mil worth of Bullpen got you!
Contribution? How so? For now none of them have played a game. Again, too quick to judge. Beltran could do his normal thing and get injured and those 2 relievers could be traded for prospects. Again saying it was a better investment now is just ridiculous.
Again, to re-sign Beltran you would have to either release Bay or play Beltran in CF. He can’t play CF anymore and stay healthy. Did you see him in RF last year?
I wonder if thats because Sandy sent them off so they could NOT play a game?
Is Wheeler playing in one?
Is Herrera or the other guy going to be in the Pen and contribute?
I await your answer on that!
“Two years at 13 Mil…And much more contribution than that 15 Mil worth of Bullpen got you!”
Huh? I think you were talking about the MLB bullpen purchases, not about Wheeler.
If the question was about Wheeler then again you are too short sighted IMO.
That being said, do you ever get the feeling we are wasting our time?
Both of us seem reasonably intelligent, both of us seem to back up our opinions with facts and reason, and both of us for sure know exactly where the other one stands. Thus what exactly is our point again? We should be out educating the Jessups and Bays of the world instead of wasting our knowledge on each other. It’s like two college professors arguing in the hallway while the kids are inside throwing paper at each other.
Sure i mentioned Wheeler….Sorry you missed it!
How many games is Wheeler winning for us this season?
Next Season?
At best he makes 30 starts next year!
How many of those are wins?
And then tell me how 30 starts is better than 130 of a Beltran or Reyes on the contribution scale?
Do you know where I stand? I for sure know where you stand. Have we had this exact same discussion every single day? Yeah. Time to move on and pass our knowledge to others.
yes we do because you keep giving the same lame excuses for what Sandy has done everyday!
And when they get shot down with logic you guys ignored and try it all again the next day!
You keep yapping about the future….
the Future Sandy has brought is Wheeler and what else?
Run from it today and it will come up again when you try to use FUTURE as an excuse tomorrow!
When you come up with a reason that actually sticks we might actually get somewhere!
Please TRS since you are so convinced about this myth…
List the moves that Sandy has made that are FUTURE help!
WHo did he add for the FUTURE GOOD?
Wheeler….and……OOps!
You think he is abot the future because you know full well there will be no apparent manifestation of how great a manager he is in the present and have to pull a rabbit out of hat somehow to defend him!
There is no FUTURE plan yet, just an immediate cut what I can cut so I don’t lose so much money!
Beltran got Wheeler and thats the ONLY future hope he has brought here!
The rest were all HERE ALREADY!
And the guys he has signed are one year (twop year at best) bandaids to fill in for all the cuts he has made!
Not a single signing has any contribution or contract obligations past 2013!
So all your FUTURE you guys keep sqwalking about really doesn’t exist!
If it did you would be able to name all the future guys Sandy has signed or traded for so start listing them please!
1 – Wheeler
2 – ???????
How about actually spending money on the draft? Again, we will not know if the plan works until we see if he actually spends once the time is right to spend.
Yeah you mean he couldn’t do that with Beltran and Reyes under contract?
Well news to the world…or just plain BULL!
If you need all that money to sign draft picks then you obviously aren’t very good at picking players!
Cause as tagee says you need to pick well in the late rounds not just the top 5 money rounds!
If you need to spend money on signing 5th and 6th rounders then you really are NOT going to be here to see any of those picks make it becase they are all in HS and will take 5-6 years before they come up!
With as brutally poor as our pitching rotations have been in years in which we’ve fallen short by just one game or just barely made the playoffs I am just astounded at the amount of angst over trading away the last two months of Carlos Beltran for a great chance of getting a #2 or maybe even dare I say #1 starting pitcher who won’t be 35-50 years old when/if he makes it up here.
The true #1 or #2 starting pitcher is the most difficult piece of the puzzle and we haven’t come close to developing one since Doc Gooden was drafted back in 1982. Darling and Sid were minor leaguers acquired in trades and Ojeda a trade as well. If we didn’t make those trades nothing else would mattered.
We’re not developing our own starting pitchers in case anyone hasn’t noticed. Bobby Jones is probably the best starting pitcher we’ve developed in 20 years. Niese is a good bet to be a real good starting pitcher but where does he fit in with the Phillies, Braves, Nats, Yankees, Giants, Angels, Rays? Probably at #4. Gee’s a 5 or a swingman. Harvey, Mejia, Familia and Gorski give us a chance but stop me if you’ve heard this before. You can never have enough starting pitching. Wheeler gives us a really good chance to be that #2 starting pitcher. That is as huge a “get” as it gets for a team that has produced exactly one bonafide #2 starting pitcher since Jon Matlack.
Maybe it’s just that everyone wants to see us pick up a guy like Chan Ho Park or Brian Lawrence, David Williams or Claudio Vargas to start crucial games in pennant races when our 35 year old ace breaks down or to make playoff starts when our 40 year old #2 and #3 starters go down and all for the self indulgence of a pipe dream of a Wild Card “run.”
Me? I’ll take the very realistic chance of having a dominant #2 starting pitcher in his prime for 6-10 years over fools gold any day.
Hi T,
The same that is now being said about Gee, Neise and Pelfrey, once highly touted prospects, now being number four or five starters on other clubs – and Harvey and Mejia possibly not having it to be the ace Met fans are looking for – might also be said about Wheeler in a few years. He might be, he might not be but it’s wrong to pronounce one as the future ace of the team after two years of A ball. Who knows – can the pressure of all the expectations placed on his shoulders in front of a New York crowd be too much for him? Remember what happened to Nolan Ryan.
Just a thought. There is no way of knowing until Wheeler comes up and and proves it like Strausberg did.
Gee was never a highly touted prospect Joey, Pelfrey was and Niese was a projected middle of the rotation who looks like he might be able to surpass those expectatons. You can’t pass up the chance to get an arm like Wheelers, to pray for an unrealistic miracle colapse of the Braves and the bypassing of 4 other teams when your best pitcher never threw a pitch all year and Ike missed 3/4ths of the season and a god awful bullpen.
Don’t forget Wright coming back from a broken back, Murphy out and Pagan MIA.
Hey Fonzie since Wheeler is so great why not tell us which year he wins the Cy Young and throws his first no hitter!
I mean your so damn sre about a guy in AA!
Metsie this site if fast becoming a rescue mission for Monday Morning Quarterbacks. It’s becoming a place where they can congregate among other lost monday morning quarterbacks and tell each other – “it’s okay”, “you’re normal”, “you’re among friends”
And now the site leader was seen entering this shelter as well as now he’s buying into the cool aid that let’s just ignore everything that’s present because the future is GUARANTEED.
Nah Bayonne the problem is the honeymoon is close to being over…
There is no more excuse for Sandy in regards to solving money issues as Madoff has now gone away!
They even paid off their debts yesterday which means they are clear out of excuses when Sandy decides to moneyball his way through next offseason!
And in year three if we continue to lose as expected he will be gone by year 4 and the Moneyball plan goes back to the AldersonAvenue site where they all seem to come up with this bull they are posting here!
The problem is here not everyone buys the spoon fed moneyball excuses which is why we have the arguments we have here daily!
Only one of those guys with the projected ceiling of Wheeler was Pelfrey. Hopefully Wheeler is not rushed and has mental toughness.
HI Joey,
Your absolutely right about not knowing about Wheeler but the thing is if he came with a guarantee do we even have a chance to get him?
That’s what those sorts of trades are all about. Your trading the known quantity/short term for the promise of something bigger down the road. The more prospects with that kind of promise the better your chances.
Pelfrey, Niese and Gee are actually a good mix to talk about. As Fonzie stated Pelfrey was a top of the line pitching prospect, Niese a solid prospect and Gee a fringe prospect. Lets just say that if we had a 3 pitcher mix like these 3 in every draft we’d hit the high note with our top guy (Pelfrey) one out of 3 times, Our solid starter one out of 5 and our fringe guy 1 out of 10. We’ve actually beaten the odds on 2 of the 3 just not the right 2 out of 3.
Historically the LHP out of HS has the worst hit ratio of any draft pick so we’ve really beaten the odds there and a #5 starter making league minimum with a chance for more is great but isn’t really something most teams don’t routinely produce.
The ace or true #2 is the hardest single piece of the puzzle to provide and while Harvey certainly shows a great chance of being that who would complain if we had two of them? What if Familia and Mejia became one’s as well? That would be a staff with a stopper going 4 nights out of 5. No way we fold like in 2007 and 2008.
The single biggest component to going to the post season is having 4 starting pitcher who pitch 200 innings for you. Get that and you are almost a lock to go to the playoffs.
name in history the percentage of deals where a known all star was traded for kids where the kids surpassed the guy given away to get him please!
People make those deals all the time!
Dodgers made it with Piazza! Did they win?
Marlins did it with him too did THEY come out ahead?
We did it with George Foster, how did that work out?
Has the guys who traded Halladay gotten better than Halladay yet?
For every blockbuster that is made at BEST 1 in 5 turns out to be good for the team who sent the one player away in the name of three prospects, and even in those cases it’s not like they got more than they gave it is usually just they got something good out of it that made the deal at least an even break!
So this notion that trading away know talents for quantity is a failed belief that only seems to work in Fantasy baseball!
Or maybe another #4 or 5 pitcher or worse the next Holt!
A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush so why would it be wise to only get one in the bush?
Would you trade your bar of certified gold for this shiny silver thing I have?
You don’t really know if it’s platinum, merely silver or a block of wood I painted.
Goin to trade a known quantity for one maybe so that if something happens and he gets hurt, or doesn’t even develop your out on one strike?
Or would you rather get something else, ANYTHING else with him so you can at least have two chances to hit the winning lottery?
Are starting pitchers important? yep probably most important thing to have!
But if you want them the best way to develop them is to draft them!
If Wheeler was as good as all you guys think then the Giants wouldn’t have traded him for a 6 month rental of Beltran!
They are the team that is GOOD at developing pitchers and they gave up on him!
That should tell you something shouldn’t it?
I like the line of “well if he was as good as you think he is then they wouldn’t have traded him”. Yeah teams never get desperate and never make poor decisions.
The better question is would the Giants do it again? I would guess no. The Mets did it once with Kazmir as well. That one turned out to be about 1/3 as bad as it could have been.
No it’s the old line Grass is Greener!
And all star wearing a Met uniform is not as good as a MAYBE wearing someone else’s Jersey!
Even if he is not rushed there is no guarantee he even makes the MLB!
He could get hurt, not get past AAA or worse get there and be another Pelfrey anyway!
Sure and Beltran’s leg could have fallen off walking up the steps of the plane.
well I just checked…it’s still there!
So there is one COULDA you mentioned that didn’t pan out…
Is Wheeler the next one?
Yet we don’t know if he would have held up for the Mets and neither did the GM. So you are 3 games above .500 and the Braves are 16 games above .500. You have one significant player that has not hit the DL and he was the one EXPECTED to go to the DL. What are the chances he stays healthy AND you overcome that difference in the standings? Worth a Wheeler? Not IMO.
Well with thinking like that you shold trade Davis Wright, Duda, Wheeler Harvey and Familia because you don’t know if they are going to hold up either…
Thats the problem!
Not KNOWING something you should know does not make good excuse for making a move for something else!
Especially if that something else is a bigger don’t know than the All Star you KNOW you have!
The Giants traded out of severe need. Here they had assembled this devastating pitching staff and yet weren’t able to fully capitolize on it because of their weak offense.
When Posey went down and their lead on AZ started to shrink they did what lots of teams do, they made a deadline deal and dealt from a position of strength. Their pitching. Sabean, Barr, Righetti and Tidrow have done an outstanding job with their pitching and it was only sheer good fortune we were able to extract Wheeler. If Atlanta didn’t also have offensive problems with McCann, Heyward and Chipper’s injuries as well as Uggla’s poor first half the market would not have been as big. Philly too needed offense and Beltran was a great fit for all 3 teams, hence the demand. The day Chipper came back from the DL he went back down again and took McCann with him, that made SF move and it was very fortunate.
SF also signed a non tender in the off season Ryan Vogelsong who made the All Star game and traded Jonathon Sanchez this off season so their both adding to and subtracting pitching depth around their big 3 (Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner) Like I said their dealing from strength.
Later Atlanta picked up Bourne for two grade B- starting pitching prospect. I’d much prefer one grade A than two B- any day. Philly gave up the comparable of Flores and Gorski for Pense. Again I would far prefer Wheeler to those two as well and while your right that Beltran is better than Bourne and Pence the fact is Beltran was brought in for 2 months to do the same thing Bourne and Pense were. Add one more bat to the linuep and get them going.
The Wheeler trade was an outstanding one for Met Fans unless your in love with the idea of having your 35 year old ace go down for the season in September and be replaced by a Jorge Sosa, Brian Lawrence, David Williams, Chan Ho Park or Carlos Munoz.
Ace/#2 pitchers are incredibly difficult to produce and consequently are drafted very high. Wheeler was taken 6th overall. That’s not a spot you want to be drafting in very often so the chance to get a guy like that just has to be jumped on.
Oh please no they did not!
They traded out of the same reason Omar signed who he did!
They saw a shot and tried to seal it!
They failed but not because they got Beltran but because they didn’t have enough from the start!
I don’t see what’s so hard to understand. Met ownership has made the decision (2 years ago) not to contend under the guise of rebuilding. The Wilpon’s got the “OK ” from MLB to move forward with their financial rehabilitation in lieu of contending. Shrugs. I don’t see how anyone can argue differently. The question for me is, when does the “clock start” How much time are the Wilpons being given by MLB? I’m hopeful that the settlement will at the very least begin the process of helping MLB determine when to begin holding the Wilpon’s more accountable for putting a viable product on the field.
Wright————— gone..
Satnana ———— gone.
Bay —————— traded mid. season.
“Regarding Reyes, was not offering him a similar $106 million deal to the one he received from the Marlins an indication of the Mets’ financial woes or simply put – a good baseball decision by Sandy Alderson?”
Well you missed one option it could have been…
a BAD baseball decision by Alderson!
The Wilpons CAN and SHOULD be blamed to a certain extent for bad signings because 1. they hired the general manager in place 2. approve the deals and 3. they arent Nelson Doubleday. Doubleday sat back and had Cashen run the team. The Wilpons are very hands on owners almost in the like of Steinbrenner. With this comes the backlash of poor aquisitions and the praise of the good. Fred should get some of the credit for bringing in Piazza and should get some of the blame for bringing in Jason Bay and when the blame far outweighs the praise then Fred deserves all those who have rooted for his demise.
If you follow only what is between the baselines then you are a bit short sighted because who put them there and the quality is a reflection of the hierarchy and those they put in place. Crap runs downhill and that is what we are seeing on the field.
I will always root passionately for the Mets but my blood pressure peeks when this season’s results will be due to past failings.
Lets Go Mets
sorry to say Mike but Doubleday sat back and let Wilpon run the team…They in turn brought in Cashen!
Truth of the matter is Joe McDonald (and Sheffing) and Lou Gorman had a lot to do with Cashen’s success!
Mazzili, Backman, Brooks were all used by Cashen Two of which to get players he needed.
Gorman left in 84 and thats just about the time the mets stopped drafting anyone worth drafting! Before that he was there when Strawberry and Gooden were taken and as I keep trying to tell Tagee the only reason we got them was due to all that loosing we did to get players with the 1-5 picks in the 1st and every round after that!
Clearly having top 5 picks and getting Gooden and Straw was huge. Brooks and Winningham were big in obtaining Carter too but those are just 3 guys that were or came from top 10 picks. Three huge pieces, but still just 3.
No other player on the team was or came from a top 10 pick and anyone drafted in a round after the first could have been selected by every single team regardless of their draft position.
The Mets did continue to draft well after 1985. Say what you want about Jeffries but he did hit and was a hell of a lot better than Taber, Heilman, Tyner, Milledge, Pelfrey, or Kunz.
Also drafted by the Mets after Gorman left was Todd Hundley and Dan Wilson, two catchers with long careers, imagine that. Scott Erickson, John Olerud, Mark Grudzielanek, Jeremy Burnitz, Fernando Vina, Rick Helling, Bobby Jones, Jason Isringhausen, Preston Wilson, Darin Erstadt, Billy Koch, Vance Wilson, Jay Payton, Terrence Long, AJ Burnett, Aaron Rowand, Garrett Atkins, Jeremy Guthrie and David De jesus.
More than enough guys to keep things going and with some creativity keep things going afterward by recycling these guys in trades or for draft picks. Problem was ownership didn’t sign many of these draft choices but their was more than enough talent drafted to keep us within a player or two of being competitive every single year.
Not until Steve Phillips became GM did the draft dry up from a talent stand point.
Carter too but those are just 3 guys that were or came from top 10 picks.
Right which is more than came from anywhere else isn’t it?
And if not then why all your whining about three VERY LATE 1st rounders given p when we were close to making the playoffs?
Not really, what do you mean by round? You can check that.
And yes the bottom of the 1st round traditionally has very good players in it. For a team that constantly has so many holes to fill how can you not seek to fill some of them for a decent period of time? Two somewhat recent # 2 draft picks would have made a huge difference for us in 2006-the present and on into the future in Brian McCann (pick forfeited for David Weathers) and Mike Stanton (pick forfeited for Moises Alou) Weathers and Alou gave us like 3 years combined and no sooner did they leave and we’re spending more draft choices on their same positions and never got around to fixing other ones.
Among guys we’ve actually selected in the 2nd round that were (obviously) available to be selected at the end of the first were Mookie Wilson, Todd Hundley, Magadan, Mike Scott. Those players aren’t worth having?
The supplemental round (which follows the first round) has loads of good players in it. Adam Jones, Gio Gonzalez, Houston Street, Clay Buckholtz, Jed Lowrie, Joba Chamberlain, Chris Perez, Brett Cecil, Tommy Hunter, Cory Luebek, and our own David Wright.
None of these guys are any good? We wouldn’t have a place for them?
doesn’t surprise me your confused…You having consistency issues on this topic….
Topic A – Phillies were smart because they built a team without top picks.
Topic B – Omar is not smart for giving away top picks you say are not needed by smart teams!
Topic C – Cashen was a genius for getting Gooden and Strawberry and we haven’t gotten a player that good since then
Topic D – You don’t believe losing as they did back then had anything to do with us getting either of the only two guys you point to as smart draft picks in the 4 score and 25 years ago address!
You really need to make up your mind here tag…
Do you need to have and use well the top 10 picks when you get them?
Or not?
If you don’t understand what I said just ask me, I’ll tell you.
You said the reason the Phillies finally won is because they got so many top 10 picks for “sucking for 20 years.” I simply proved that wasn’t true and that any teams could have drafted or signed any or all of the guys they did.
All picks are necessary especially 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders and especially again when you have so many multitudes of “holes to fill” every year and your owner refuses to go over slot. Add in the prior 7 year period being a wasteland in terms of infusing talent into the system and Voila You wind up with 4 first basemen in the starting lineup and the division’s worst rotation.
Show me the link where I said Cashen was a genius for getting Gooden and Strawberry.
No idea what your point is with topic D. I’ll take a guess that your referring to the Mets losing so much in the late 70′s-early 80′s and getting to draft Gooden and Straw. Is that correct? If so of course losing is what got the 1st and 6th picks in the draft. Show me where I said you can get those picks by winning?
Facts are an intelligently run baseball team can produce a winning team without top 10 picks but obviously it’s a lot easier with them. Not a requirement though look at Philly. Not even one.
NO thats NOT what I said but what you did try to argue because you didnt’t want to talk about what I REALLY said!
I said Sucking wholesale gets you top draft POSITION not just top 10 picks and it gets you that draft position in EVERY ROUND!
Which is how they were able to get a Rollins in the 2nd who at the time was nopt deemed good enough to be a first round talent and made it to the 2nd where the FIRST PICKERS in that round got him!
Same with Howard who was not deemed much past a late 4th rounder but made it to the 5th where the top picking Phillies got to take him before someone else!
LOOSING puts you in position to take the cream of EVERY CROP!
Not just the 1st round where the Phillies had gotten NOTHING good despite all thier credited smarts and got lucky because they had first choice in all the later rounds!
But you keep trying to twist what I said and this is why you got yourself in the duality about the top 10 first rounders!
I never claimed the team was built all because of what they got in the top 10 of the first but by being in the top 10 of EVERY ROUND!
When you made it about just the 1st I pointed out how you whined about the mets giving away Bottom 10 1st rounders that you claim were so important to winning with the phillies and Braves despite your assertion that they never had any top 10 piks makje their squad!
So if you drafted 10th lets say and in the 50th round you took a future hall of famer that would be due to your having a terrible year the year before (sucking in Metsie Parlance) and getting to draft before 21 of the 30 Major League clubs despite the fact that the guy you selected could have been drafted 49 times by every other team in baseball ranging from the 9 teams who were worse the year before than you and all the way up to and including the team with the best record of all the teams including all playoff teams, both World Series participants and the World Champion? and not once, not twice or three times but 49 times!
Ughhh, OK Metsie, sure, right, whatever you say.
YEP! thats right! And if you missed on the previous 50 rounds taking one in the 50th is not a sign your smarter than anyone else!
Fact it’s a sign your as dumb as everyone else for passing on him earlier!
But loosing more allowed that team to take a guy the 11th -30th picker couldn’t take in the 50th now didn’t it?
When you pick before someone else and win doesn’t make you smarter than everyone who picked after you!
Especially if you both had the guy rated the same way and only got him because you had first pick!
Despite the fact that ever other team including those that drafted last could have drafted the same player 49 times but you got him because you had a terrible year?
OK Metsie, whatever you say.
Ok lets try this another way….
Best player to ever play baseball is in the draft!
team with the first pick takes him
Did they get him because they are SMARTER than everyone else who could very well know the same thing about that player as they do?
OR
Did they get him because they lost more?
Now take that concept and put it into the 20th round….
NO DIFFERENCE!
By the way I notice you listed a ton of names there…How many of them were Strawberry or Gooden types?
Metsie you don’t need 10-15 Straw or Gooden types. Philly doesn’t have any, Atlanta has only Chipper, SF just Posey.
C – Hundley/Dan Wilson
1B John Olerud
2B Fernando Vina
SS Mark Grudzielanek
3B Garrett Atkins
LF Darin Erstadt
CF Aaron Rowand/De Jesus
RF Terrence Long/Jay Payton
SP Scott Erickson
SP Jeremy Guthrie
SP Bobby Jones
RP Billy Koch
Doesn’t leave you all that many holes to fill does it? 1985-1997 12 year period with most of these players primes intersecting with each other which gives you a great chance to get something done. Plenty of guys to trade if a Halliday or Lee becomes available, competition so no ones too comfortable, depth plus they can all be turned into other players and keep the whole thing going unlike Pedro, Alou, Castillo, Perez, most likely Bay.
You can add in Matt Williams, Rafeal Palmeiro and Roger Clemons drafted and not signed by us a well.
Agee, with picks like those, you have ammo to pull off trades and add in some free agents here and there, you have a team that’s competitive year in, year out.
yeah Fonz it was right there. Right there to be had over a 12 year period starting in 1985 that would have refreashed the whole roster with no crash. No Juan Samuel, Jeff Muscleman, Frank Viola, Vince Coleman. Bobby Bo.
We just got away from the very thing that made us successful in the mid 80′s.
Just goes to show that you have to be building your team 5 years from now, not 5 months from now.
Then stop complaining about not having any over the last 25 years!
We had all those guys you listed…what did we win?
Are you saying it wasn’t the last 25 years that got us here now it was only the last 10-15?
Please for the love of god make up your mind on SOMETHING!
hey joe please dont tell me your access to the mets is not brought with a bs article like this. please, we have last place sandy and you write better days are ahead, and if my aunt had balls she would be my uncle. the team is getting worse under sandy, as the other teams in the division are getting better. Spare me the sales pitch and wake up to the cobwebs in the stands.
As if Joe D isn’t entitled to his own opinion as a life long Met Fan and seen the wreckage of the free agent centric approach time and time again turn this team into non contenders with just short intervals of being in it every decade or so for a couple of years and only then when a Division rival furnishes us with their best players,
Steroid era is over, most teams jumped on the youth movement the day the Union agreed to testing, we bucked the trend and threw away our draft choices on aging dinosaures who got us to the playoffs one time before crashing under the weight of their accumulated girth and wallets while under performing even the most conservative projections other than Beltran and riding off into the sunset with our SS as well.
It’s not about access, it’s about common sense.
The funny part is that Joe very recently voiced criticism about the signings Alderson did and didn’t make.
It is so over the top, all or nothing with some people.
By the way, will, you currently owe me $30.
It’s just the next war Tag….
So far there have been two main points of contention on here….
1 – The Sandy thing….
2 – The Wilpons being the root of all evil!
And many of the guys who support Sandy have used the Wilpons as the scapegoat!
Truth is the Wilpons didn’t ruin or bankrupt this franchise! It’s not even certain the GMs we have hired did!
If the Wilpons have any involvement at all in the financial difficulties it is more due to people HATING them and starting facebook pages about Boycotts and thier followers than anything Wilpon, Omar and Sandy has done!
I don’t know if the Wilpons are the best owners in baseball I know they certainly aren’t the worst!
Why people hate them I can’t say but I’m sure it is unjustified!
Those same people were hoping they lost a ton of money because they don’t seem to nderstand Rich peopl act like Rich People no matter what thier last name is!
And no rich guy is going to fix a team without a GM who could do it even without the rich guy’s personal wallet!
I think the hate Wilpon crowd just lost a lot of media play now…
So it’s down to blaming them for what Sandy does and one final whining session while the bad news for them is still fresh!
THIS is why I said yesterday Alderson was the biggest loser in the settlement!
Because the Wilpon financial situation had it’s legs cut out from under it!
And now all the focus is going to be on the team, performance and winning which is key to the attendance that was ALWAYS the cause of our financial problems…not Madoff!
Alderson isn’t the biggest loser. Alderson is the biggest winner. Now he has a relatively unencumbered team to run. Metsie you’ve bet on the wrong horse. lol
And you base this on what?
What pray tell has been unencumbered?
Could he now afford reyes? Too Late!
Can he now afford to keep the injured David Wright?
Is he now going to buy a REAL ACE?
What has he won?
NOTHING!
Only thing Sandy has now that he didn’t have before is a diversion!
He lost the excuse for not spending and when he doesn’t spend no will will be able to blame the Wilpons for it!
So either he HAS to spend or he has to win!
Thats not a WINNING position until you have done one or the other!
“Can he now afford to keep the injured David Wright?
Is he now going to buy a REAL ACE?”
Maybe, maybe not. Whatever happens, it won’t be as encumbered by lack of budget as before.
If he feels signing Wright to however years for whatever money is in the best interest of the Mets, he can do it.
If there is a legit ace on the free agent market (no, there won’t be for several years) and he is willing to pitch for the Mets, Alderson can make the deal now.
“He lost the excuse for not spending and when he doesn’t spend no will will be able to blame the Wilpons for it!
So either he HAS to spend or he has to win!”
The Mets have to become a sustainable winner. That is why he is here.
You’re making it seem like it went from “can’t spend” to “have to spend”. No one has to spend. If Alderson doesn’t see anyone who fits into his plan on the free agent market this winter, then he shouldn’t give out a big money, long term deal. especially when he still has Bay, Santana and probably Wright to consider.
We won’t know how it affects chasing big free agents for another 2 years (mainly because Andre Ethier is the most interesting guy scheduled to be a free agent next winter and the Dodgers will probably extend him).
The immediate changes we’ll see is being able to spend a little extra to ensure we bring in good role players and lock up our own guys.
Sure he mostitly will be AS ENCUMBERED as before…
Because you miss the point he was never encombered by the Wilpons or madoff before!
They didn’t take a penny out of the budget but you guys sure tried to say they did!
And now you see it took nothing, hurt the team NADA not even the 29 Mil which isn’t due until 2015!
So tell us what was the excuse for the dumping?
Madoff still despite the facts?
Or Sandy’s philosophy?
Guess what the same thing that made Sandy cut salary last year remains!
SANDY!
He’s still here!
It amazes me how you so aggressively miss the point. And even use exclamation points after every sentence, no matter how mundane, as if your every word is a revelation. The Stephen A Smith School of Hack Writing.
“Because you miss the point he was never encombered by the Wilpons or madoff before!
They didn’t take a penny out of the budget but you guys sure tried to say they did!”
They were bleeding money the last few years and the Madoff thing took away the reserves. They had no safety net so they had to stop loading up on long term big money contracts, which don’t work most of the time anyway.
“So tell us what was the excuse for the dumping?
Madoff still despite the facts?”
So, the team hasn’t been losing money the last few years? And the Madoff thing didn’t put the Wilpons in a precarious position where they couldn’t just buy all the shiniest toys? Are you really that lost?
“Or Sandy’s philosophy?”
What, pray tell, would the philosophy be?
“Guess what the same thing that made Sandy cut salary last year remains!”
Bloated contracts with minimal return?
“SANDY!
He’s still here!”
As are Bay and Santana.
But hey, keep yelling. Increasing does a great job of hiding your so horribly wrongness.
Can’t miss what doesn’t exist and never existed!
Wilpon and madoff had nothing to do with spending, Mets didn’t lose a penny on Madoff!
Repeating that they did is not changing that fact!
And since the madoff situation and lawsuit didn’t hamper Alderson there is nothing that has been removed because of this settlement to change what he is doing!
2 keys to the right of the m on your keyboard. End your sentences with that once in a while. You’ll look like less of a raving lunatic.
Also, you just said the Wilpons had nothing to do with the Mets spending.
As I said, Madoff may or may not have directly cut into the Mets budget, but it took away the reserves. There was no cavalry coming over the hill after bleeding money for a few years. And I’m not the only one who has explained that you. Over and over again, it was explained the relationship between the Mets and the Wilpons’ finances.
So, ya, you can yell and scream that the possibility of the owner losing $1 billion had no effect on the franchise that needed outside financing, but you’re merely lying to yourself. You can pretend that the Wilpons were taking out 8 figure loans to keep the team afloat. The rest of us will stay here in reality.
big thing on the end of your neck!
Use it sometime!
I hear you Metsie.
I’ve always believed that the Wilpon’s try to serve too many masters and this has hamstrung their efforts to build a winning baseball team regardless of who the GM is.
Phillips didn’t care but Minaya knew better and has the talent to get it to work through the draft AND IFA together but the Wilpon’s wouldn’t go over enough to make the difference in losing all the best picks and that just made Minaya not value the draft enough.
The Wilpon’s run it as a year to year operation when it’s not. It’s a fluid enterprise. You can’t buy guys and forfeit your best picks, not make up for it by going over slot and then dump them when the season falls apart for Chris Carter to recoup some of your investment.
Now Alderson has somehow gotten the Wilpon’s to listen to reason although the new CBA will inhibit any fast upgrade (typical Mets always behind the curve) but even paying Beltran’s remaining salary was a major departure and he did it even with payroll being slashed. Minaya could have given Fred something and gotten what he wanted too has always been my point but he tried to work within the existing framework which is outdated.
I don’t think that the Wilpon’s are bad owners and I think Fred has the potential to be a very good owner but he has to ride out the storm of the impatient Fan and realize that you cannot play whack a mole with 8-12 spots on the roster every off season because you’ll never get a fully coherent 25 man roster with quality depth, backups and prospects to trade by limiting yourself to just the type A FA and the scrap heap.
That approach leads to volatile regular season results and consequently the same for attendance. A more stable roster with a couple of carefully selected upgrades and very few long term potential albatross contracts will lead to a more stable attendance and a more stable results. Having guys who are here for 8 years rather than 2-4 will allow us to fill all the spots and the team will be more familiar to the fans.
I always went to see Koosman and Grote, Kranepool and Harrelson, Jones and McGraw just cause I like watching them play, even when we were out of it. That feeling doesn’t exist around here when your just running whoever you can get through the lockeroom in order to “fill holes.”
I’m supporting the Wilpon’s because I do feel they’ve tried, made mistakes but have hopefully really learned this time and they just can’t continue to serve the individual interests of MLB, Bud Selig, the Fans, Media ect. They have to make all their decisions on what is best for the long range interests of the baseball team as it relates to winning baseball games and if they do that, everything else that they want (and we want) will fall right into place.
Then the problem will be getting tickets.
Thats all well and ood proovided you believe Sandy is selling REASON!
I’m not sure he is!
All I have seen him sell so far is All Stars!
and the return so far for all three is two guys who didn’t and won’t make the team, one guy who might in two years and two comp picks that are not much better than a 2nd rounders!
A whole lot of maybe for a whole of of KNOWN GOOD!
I feel it as a lifelong Met fan. It is on the horizon. THe problem with instant gratification is that the quick fix leaves you dangling with no future. We finally have prospects and still suffer from Minaya contracts. Get those pitchers up to the bigs when they are ready, be free of Madoff issues, and dead contracts and you are talking an ability to make some acquisitions that make sense. Reyes and Fielder makes us a contender? WIth who pitching….Loewen?
We are in for a long year with a few suprises. Will Citi field be packed? Doubt it. Collins is a good Met manager and will not tolerate complacency. The team will hustle and we have seen some bonding. We have been leaner for longer before this point. Sandy is developing a winner and it will take time. Fans need to realize this and get on the bandwagon now not when we are making Citi field rock!
Too bad the “instant gratification” that you are second guessing about – the guy who did that also provided the Mets with their current crop of minor leaguers that you are looking forward to. And as for the big club also he got you Ike Davis, Ruben Tejada, Lucas Duda, Jon Niese, Dillon Gee, Bobby Parnell (who i am not giving up on yet) even Justin Turner and R. A. Dickey
People all of a sudden have short and selective memories. Not being honest with yourself is suddenly en vogue around here
I missed where he said that Omar did nothing in terms of the prospects. The only thing he mentioned is that some of Omar’s contracts are now hurting the team. Yeah that is a price you pay when you go all in and come up with craps.
Guys, I’m noticing that if I respond directly through emails instead of going to directly to MMO, my replies often don’t appear.
Any one else noticing that or is the email different than posting a reply?
Beltran did not embarrass anybody with his play in right field, one of the more difficult ones at that. His arm was still strong. He covered the ball quickly and was able to get back to the wall without difficulty. And he had no pain.
Perhaps he had his last good season. It’s possible. But to dismiss him immediately as not being in the team’s immediate future – as a center fielder – was unwise as well. Nobody is looking at our newly acquired one for more than two years, either.
It’s purely a judgement call with valid points on both ends. But it’s not so cut and dry. That’s what makes the job of the one making the calls as to which players fit in the best so demanding. Glad I don’t have it.
LOL Joey…beltran was so embarrasing that they made him go to the All Star game as punishment for his awful play!
I do believe that when talking about the high payroll being a major obstacle in the way of signing or retaining it’s high priced players, one should take into account that this in itself would not have caused the Wilpons to take out two major loans to meet operating expenses, cut staff by ten percent, sever ties with a rookie club and call in a financial planning agency to help get their act together. Again, it was due to the shadow of the civil suit hanging over their heads that necessitated them to hold off spending in all their holdings, not just the Mets, combined with the loss of their own half-billion dollars, the sudden stoppage of dividends they thought they could count on, the real-estate market, etc.
Now one cannot fault them taking the drastic steps they did due to their experience with the Murphy’s Law not named after Daniel. Even though I do not like them as owners, I can understand the circumstances regarding this situation.
So that additional $30 million or so was indeed, a waste of money, but not the financial burden or reason for the roster moves. The payroll and the need for rebuilding were just smoke screens to cover the intensity of the overall situation. It’s understandable from a business point of view for a company like Sterling Equities to not openly admit to it’s unsteady footing, even though it had already become public knowledge.
Why Omar’s spending habits have to be used as the excuse for the current financial state of affairs I do not know. All the other points about him thinking in the short-term and not the long-term, over-paying, putting us in the position of having to continue with those the likes of Perez, Castillo and Bay as everyday players are valid, whether one agrees with them or not. But that affected performance, not financials and the two should not be confused.
And the Mets claim to have lost $70 million (which does not address the question of television rights sold to SNY, etc.) is more due to the Wilpons expecting 39,000 to pay the prices they were demanding on a daily basis. That mistake they did on their own.
So I’m just asking to please note use bad contracts as the reason why we need to cut down roster payroll. The bad contracts just inhibited us from benching those players that could not produce.