20
2012
The Mets Outstanding Debt Obligations And A Road Map To Meeting Those Obligations
An article by 
What a big day for the Mets owners yesterday, huh? Mets fans I’ve spoke to and chatted with seem to have mixed feelings about yesterday’s events. But like I advise all my Mets buddies, stop worrying about what you can’t control and take your emotion out of the equation.
Fred Wilpon and Saul Katz were all smiles as they left the courthouse yesterday morning. Fred even pumped his fist defiantly in the air which kind of reminded me of George Costanza’s father on a Seinfeld episode shouting, “I’m back, baby!”
A lot has transpired in the last 24 hours, so let me update you on the Mets debt obligations for today and beyond. Believe me, it’s not the unreachable summit many make it out to be.
Fred Wilpon and his brother-in-law Saul Katz, dodged a bullet yesterday. Not because the outcome of the trial would have gone against them, there was no chance of that happening. As I said before, the whistle-blower who was supposed to be Picard’s most damaging witness, was firing blanks and even Judge Rakoff knew it.
But credit the Mets owners for wasting no time in getting their affairs in order soon after they reached their settlement…
To begin, the approximate $30 million dollars they will end up owing after net loser claims are settled and accounted, is not payable until 2015.
In a very slick and stunning calculated move, the Mets closed the deal on $240 million dollars worth of minority stakes. That was 12 stakes at $20 million each, not the 4-6 stakes so many had inaccurately reported.
Yesterday, the Mets paid off their $25 million dollar loan from MLB. Bud Selig was gracious enough to extend the Mets owners some additional time to pay the loan back, and for that courtesy his longtime buddy Fred Wilpon tossed in a box of chocolates.
Additionally, the Mets also paid back the $40 million dollar bridge loan from Bank of America. This was the money that was intended to hold the Mets over until the sales of the ownership stakes closed, which of course they did.
The Mets now have $175 million left from the sales of the ownership stakes this morning. Here are the rest of the Mets debt obligations:
Each June and December, the Mets make two annual payments of approximately $20 million each for Citi Field. This is no different than the lease or loan payments that all MLB teams pay for the facilities they play in. The take on parking, merchandising and concessions alone, more than cover these semi-annual payments with plenty of profit to spare.
In 2014, the Mets have a debt payment due on the team which will be a portion of the remaining $430 million dollars in outstanding debt. It’s not unlike what other MLB teams owe as a percentage of their team’s value, most of whom maintain similar debt ceilings.
By the way, speaking of team values, this news item as reported by Bill Madden of the Daily News was widely under-reported last month.
For if the Dodgers wind up selling for $2 billion or more, the value of the Mets, a signature franchise in their own right, in the country’s largest media market with their own network and new stadium, despite their present hard times, have to be worth close to $3 billion.
Why do you think all those ownership stakes came through yesterday? Savvy investors know a good deal when they see one. I’m pretty sure none of them will be cashing those shares in for a 3% annual interest payment as quickly as some have reported. And if they do, the Wilpons will buy them back with pleasure.
2015 is another big year in terms of debt obligations for the Mets owners. A debt payment is due on the $450 million obligation against SNY – an obligation that is shared with partners Comcast and Time-Warner. Several sources have told me that this loan is adjustable and that if the Mets and their partners wanted to, they could refinance it for a further five years, but I’m sure Comcast and Time-Warner will make some sort of arrangements to pay a big portion of this debt down given their enormous financial clout and wherewithal.
That’s it. That’s all of the debt the Mets owners have on the books. That’s every penny of it.
As I speculated back on January 3rd, the primary function of bringing in CRG, was not to oversee a bankruptcy proceeding as many had hoped. That was a big bunch of malarkey.
Instead, they were bought in to help the Mets get out of the red and into the black. The Mets were losing $60-$70 million dollars per year and they needed experts like CRG to stop that bleeding and make the team profitable again.
To that end, the Mets slashed payroll by $50 million, reduced their workforce by 10%, and even eliminated one of their minor league affiliates. In one fell swoop they eliminated close to $65 million dollars in expenses.
They expect increased revenues through leasing parts of their academy in the Dominican Republic to other teams, marketing their 50 Year Anniversary with several events including the return of a fan favorite - Banner Day, but most importantly an influx of top prospects that with their promotions will infuse the fanbase with a renewed hope and confidence that the team is on the right path again. Credit Sandy Alderson for that.
One thing many overlook and I haven’t seen mentioned on other site’s summary of the Mets debt obligations, is the $340 million dollars the Mets are still owed by Citi Bank for the naming rights deal. Ahhh… You forgot that didn’t you? The Mets will still collect annual payments of $20 million through the year 2029.
So there you have it…
A complete overview of the Mets outstanding debts along with the steps they have taken on the advice of CRG to reduce expenses and boost revenues, and a road map to meeting all of their future obligations.
Oh and of course there’s one more thing…
The odd chance that the fans will flock to the park in droves once the era of Matt Harvey, Zack Wheeler and Jeurys Famila begins in the next year or two. There’s nothing like some exciting prospects and some new faces of the franchise to restore a tarnished image. Just ask Frank Cashen, he can tell you more about that.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 41 | 28 | .594 | - |
| Nationals | 34 | 34 | .500 | 6.5 |
| Phillies | 33 | 37 | .471 | 8.5 |
| Mets | 25 | 39 | .391 | 13.5 |
| Marlins | 21 | 47 | .309 | 19.5 |
Last updated: 06/16/2013
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So what you are saying is that you expect Met fans to flock to Citi Field for the ’12 season to see a CRAPPY team (my prediction as a lifelong Met and baseball fan) with the privilege of dropping a couple of hundred bucks for a family of four when gas prices are going to 5 bucks a gallon. Oh but according to you in the future years we’ll have a great team with our great prospects in years ’14 and beyond. The Mets are not an investment company as much as you might like to think of them in those terms. Their CORE business is the baseball team called THE New York Mets. GM went bankrupt because they made crappy cars and you expect me and the rest of the fans to buy into a crappy team for now waiting for the future. I ain’t buying it and when you see all the empty seats at Citi Field and the lost revenue piling up tell me then it’s all rosy.Oh by the way Beltran hit a homer and a single yesterday to beat the Cards. Oh he’s not a Met anymore, scratch that. You guys are turning me into a Yankee fan.
Well no Met fan can actually be turned into a Yankee fan so if that is the case, later buddy. I for one am excited that the budget cloud might be starting to break up. We know when they have money they spend it. Thus we have to all hope that they do that again and make better decisions through Sandy on who to spend it on.
They spent in the past with Madoff money. They won’t have that going forward.
So you think they were paying for the lofty payroll with Madoff money? That would make no sense at all.
I’ve been watching **** baseball for over two decades now very rarely interspersed with a couple of competitive seasons here and there that were at times pretty underwhelming themselves with two consecutive under .500 seasons in both first halves in 2007 and 2008 so I’m fine with waiting a couple of years.
As Metsie himself pointed out back when Alderson was hired a rebuild probably won’t be much worse than what we’ve had here for a long time anyway minus the big disappointment when other teams former All Stars land in to stink up the joint or lounge around the DL all season long and then get traded for salary relief only to import another disappointing batch the next year in order to artificially pump the gate at ticket selling time.
Even the NYY had to under go chemo therapy back in the early 90′s to erradicate the cancer of the big expensive and disappointing free agent eating away at their insides and sucking the vitality out of their team by keeping them in constant need because of a lack of talent in the farm system.
I don’t hear too many of their fans complaining about the way things worked out for them these days do you?
Just for clarity I also pointed out that it probably won’t be much better either!
The only difference is it will take longer to do what needs to be done when you get rid of your best players instead of finding a way to get rid of your worst players!
We had 4 BIG contracts on the books last year 5 if you include K-Rod which really was only big for this year…
In order of performance the contracts were:
Santana Highest Salary most often injured player over the past three years
Beltran Highest Performer, second highest Salary second most often injured player in past three years
Bay Lowest performer second highest Salary third most missed games of anyone on the team.
Wright 4th Highest salary, third best performer missed more time than Reyes
Reyes Lowest salary of the top salaries, missed 30 games won a batting title and led the team in RS.
Santana is still here and no one can say he is worth even 10 mil let alone 24…
Beltran was worth what he was getting paid and is even cheaper this year but not for us!
Bay is still here will still be here and we only have moved in fences to hope he will come back to what he was. Anyone seen those Bay hits going off over the fences this spring?
Wright is the next most likely trade we make,
reyes was let go despite signing a contract that meant a pay cut for two years right around the time everyopne expects harvey and familia to pack them in! IF they pack them in instead of become generation K the Sequel!
The top 3 most valuable and worth paying players are all gone or about to be…
The two worst contracts for the next two years are still here with only 50% of it having a shot at being worth paying half of what he is going to get!
Sure we could be winning a lot of games with Harvey and Familia!
We could be winning more with them if we had a batting champ at SS and an All Star RBI leader in the OF!
By the time this plan comes off we will be arguing about how much credit Sandy’s replacement should be getting for the success!
And if Harvey and Familia actually do make it happen Sandy should get none of it!
Unless Wheeler is winning 30 games a season he really hasn’t brought anything here that helps the future!
“Unless Wheeler is winning 30 games a year Alderson hasn’t done anything for the future.”
Why set the bar so low Metsie? I say he’s a bust unless unless he wins 50 games a year, and saves 50 as well.
Well what I said is no more rediculous than saying having a guy in A ball improves the MLB squad without knowing if he ever plays a game in the MLB now isn’t it?
Should the bar bet set so low that we start attributing MLB improvement to a kid who isn’t in the MLB and is not guaranteed to ever be?
What would your feeling be if he won 15 and threw 200 innings 6 consecutive years?
Has he done it yet?
No?
What would your feeling be if he turns out to be another Paul Wilson?
Would Sandy still get a SUCCESS rating on that deal?
I am perfectly happy not knocking him for the deal provided you guys stop using him as the poster boy for Sandy’s smarts!
Because the truth is two years, two off seasons and that all Sandy has really bought here who has a shot at playing for us in 2014!
My feeling would be it was a very worthwhile move just like I’ve said about Fern, drafting Pelfrey, Havens. Talent, in it’s prime is the fuel that drives 7 year winning streaks.
Reyes missed 36 games last year and 2 of those 126 games played were as a PH. Not that you ever care about being accurate.
Yeah don’t let not having a point stop you from posting either!
Not having a point is far better than making them up as you do. It’s easy to lie as you do.
Yeah well the guy with the proof is called the liar and the guy with no point no proof is the one who is calling the guy with the proof a liar!
CREDIBILITY GAP you got there son…and thats about it with no point and no proof!
The guy with the so called proof never really has proof, just what his dimented mind thinks is proof. Everybody knows you’re full of shit Metsie. I’m not breaking any news here. You can’t even get Reyes’ number of games played right. Oh by the way, M.Donald Grant was never the GM of the Mets. Probably just a mistake on your part but with your bullshit history one never know, do one?
except in the case of who ran the baseball operations before 1992 in Oakland…
If I’m full of shit it’s only because you been trying to shovel it down my throat with all your conjecture and fantasy put forth as fact!
Fact is Sandy built the A’s from 83-97, not 92-97 as you falsely claim.
http://www.usatoday.com/educate/college/careers/CEOs/8-24-05.htm
Wow, Walter Haas seems to think Sandy built those A’s teams you thin Roy Eisenhardt built. Well Eisenhardt did bring Alserson over from their Law Firm so I guess he gets credit too.
Except it isn’t a fact…he was not involved in the baseball decisions!
We have shown you MULTIPLE sources!
And now you have provided YET ANOTHER!
from your link!
“He didn’t have the baseball background of most GMs,” says Wally Haas Jr., the son of the owner and a vice president for the club at the time. “He got on the ground floor, kicked the dirt and relied on others around him who had more baseball knowledge.”
“The way I began was keeping my mouth shut,” Alderson says. “I tried to be respectful and learn as much as I could. ” (Note he began in 1983! When that championship run was started!)
“”He had great vision,” says Bill Beane, the A’s general manager who calls Alderson his mentor. “He could see where the game was headed.”
Note Beane didn’t get there toll Well after 89! In fact wasnt there until around 1992 like I said is about when Sandy actually took over and started making baseball decisions!
“Says Haas Jr., “I can’t think of anyone better I’d have watching my back and running my company.”
RUNNING his company…not BUILDING his team!
Not a shred of evidence in any of that link you posted that says he made the baseball decisions before 1992!
But a TON of evidence that backs up and PROVES what I said!
Now go home and lick your wounds son!
I guess you could say 1990 is well after 1989, that’s when Beane was hired as a scout.” Note”, The championship run started in 1988, with a WS loss to the Dodgers.”Note” his use of advanced statistics to draft Mark McGwire in 1884. Nice try at rearranging the truth again. You fail again.
Grasping straws now aren’t you?
Scouts aren’t in the front office so all of beane’s quotes are after 1992 when Sandy took over and promoted him to asst GM, But you keep struggling my little fish caught out of water!
“At the same time, I wasn’t burdened with a lot of traditional knowledge or experience.”
He used that to his advantage and became a new breed of baseball executive who relied heavily on statistical tendencies and developed a farm system relying on those statistics.
Using baseball analyst Bill James’ statistical formulas, Alderson drafted Mark McGwire based on his power potential and Jason Giambi on his on-base percentage.
“He had great vision,” says Bill Beane, the A’s general manager who calls Alderson his mentor. “He could see where the game was headed.”
Beane, who was hired by Alderson and became his assistant general manager in Oakland, says Alderson opened the door for himself and young baseball executives such as Theo Epstein (Boston Red Sox) and Paul DePodesta (Los Angeles Dodgers).
“The perceptions on how to build a team, he was the guy who started it all,” Beane says. “Before, if you weren’t an ex-player, you weren’t going to be in position.”
Says Haas Jr., “I can’t think of anyone better I’d have watching my back and running my company”. His company just happens to be a baseball team, Metsie. You do know McGwire was drafted in 1984 right? But not a shred of evidence that he made any decisions before 1992. You have not provided any evidence that he started making baseball decisions after 1992.Never once. Nothing you provided shows eveidence that Roy Eisenhardt mad baseball personnel decisions until 1992,none, nada, zippo.
Your spin job doesn’t work. Still waiting for you to show me the PROOF that Sandy WASN’T making BASEBALL decisions before 1992. I’ve shown my proof he was.
Yes in 1992! Not before the 9 team was built!
Thats you problem!
You think what he did in 1992 is responsible for something in the past that he had nothing to do with the decision making of the build!
He didn’t make those decisions until 1992!
Um 1984 is before 1992. That was 1984AD not 1984BC. Still wating on that proof. I showed mine, care to show yours. One that actually says that Sandy wasn’t making baseball decisions before 1992.
Show a link that shows Beane in the front office in 1984 dumbass!
Scouts don’t work at the front office!
Beane didn’t get into there until 1991!
Nice try Fraudsie. I said Alderson drafted McGwire in 1984. I never said he hired Beane in 84, I said he hired Beane in 1990. Nice try at trying to spin yourself out of being exposed as a bullshit artist. Now come the insults. Right on cue, Nothing to back up his false claims so the insults fly because you have been defeated.
Yeah too bad for you Sandy wasn’t in charge of the baseball decisions in 1984…your link you tried to post as your EVIDENCE proved that!
Silly Runt!
But what is to be expected from a guy who thinks blowing up a team one win away from the playoffs is the way to go!
It’s a shame you missed the part that said Sandy drafted Mark McGwire, which happened in 1984. Still waiting for the proof to dispute that. Don’t stay up all night trying to google it. It doesn’t exist. I can go back and forth all night. Each time, there’s validity to my claim So far none for you.
He didn’t draft McGwire!
Rigney and the president did!
A point you keep missing!
Did you answer my question about who were the most successful Met GMs in tha last 25 years or are you still running from it like Tagee?
Wrong again, Rigney didn’t, Sandy did. I’ve answered your question 3 times. In the last 25 years Cashen by a loooong shot. You’ve also asked that question 2 different ways and I’ve answered both ways.
No you just repeated the same lie three times!
And then showed the proof you were lying!
Your THAT stupid!
I thoght you could read I would tell you to read Moneyball!
It tells the whole story about when Sandy started calling the baseball shots!
And when he first dabled with Sabers….
I believe he started looking at them in 1983!
But he didn’t actually make input on baseball decisions until 1992!
When he took over the baseball operations!
Nope! Nothing in” Moneyball” that says Alderson didn’t make decisions until 1992.
.
In 1981, Eisenhart, the team president, persuaded Alderson to join the team full time as its general counsel.
He wasn’t a baseball neophyte. Alderson played second base at Dartmouth his first two years there.
“I wasn’t very good,” he says. “The best thing I did was quit because it gave me a chance to try other things.”
Such as running the A’s. When Billy Martin was fired in 1982, Alderson took over his duties as general manager with the leanest of baseball resumes. He was 35.
“He didn’t have the baseball background of most GMs,” says Wally Haas Jr., the son of the owner and a vice president for the club at the time. “He got on the ground floor, kicked the dirt and relied on others around him who had more baseball knowledge.”
At the time, he was an outsider in a sport ruled by insiders set in old-school ways.
“The way I began was keeping my mouth shut,” Alderson says. “I tried to be respectful and learn as much as I could.
“At the same time, I wasn’t burdened with a lot of traditional knowledge or experience.”
He used that to his advantage and became a new breed of baseball executive who relied heavily on statistical tendencies and developed a farm system relying on those statistics.
Using baseball analyst Bill James’ statistical formulas, Alderson drafted Mark McGwire based on his power potential and Jason Giambi on his on-base percentage
Note this article in which you said I proved myself wrong shows that what I said was in fact correct. ” Using baseball analyst Bill James statistical formulas, Alderson drafted Mark Mcgwire based on his power potential and Jason Giambi on his on-base percentage. Right there in black and white. Pray tell what year Mark McGwire was drafted? 1984.
The line you should stop repeating is
““The way I began was keeping my mouth shut,” Alderson says. “I tried to be respectful and learn as much as I could. ”
Yep he made a lot decisions with his mouth shut!
I suppose you read moneyball as well as you read your evidence that proved my point!
ROFLMMFAO!
You are so friggin dumb you don’t even realize you keep proving yourself wrong by reporting that crap you think says something about 1989 when all it says is he stayed out of all the basebakll talk ans sat QUIETLY while the BASEBALL people made decisions!
Then drafted Mark McGwire in 1984 using Bill James formulas. My proof shows decisions before 1992, it shows he made decisions in 1984. What years does you so called proof show he made decisions after 1992. He kept his mouth shut until he drafted Mark McGwire in 1984. One year.
By the way nothing in moneyball backs up your claim, nothing. I read the book. Keep grasping.
If I’m so dumb how come I keep handing you your lunch on a platter.
Complete Bull!
Your dumb because you THINK your beationg me when all your proof supported me not you!
I’m now convinced the Wilpons are here to stay. Like the person above me said, they always spent in the past. All we can do is hope they do so again when the time is right, but I dont see that happening for another two years? You are also putting too much stock into Harvey, Wheeler and Mejia. The odds say only one will pan out if we’re lucky.
And if one pans out and hits 3/4 his potential, that is a legit ace. There is a handful of those in MLB. If Wheeler or Harvey only hit half their potential, that is still a solid 2/3 guy in the rotation.
Hodges, don’t worry… We all know which one will pan out to be a stud and be part of la familia of the mets…
Wow, LOL.
I would think you would want them all to pan out unless you’re afraid they’ll be shutting down your Marlins.
Joe D, once again, a very well thought out and reasoned piece on the Mets financial situation. Your coverage in this area by far has been the most objective and sensible of any blogger or reporter by far (though I continue to disagree with you about Megdal and Sandomir).
A few notes — according to every report I read, the sale of the 12 shares and the payback of the loans was completed last week, before the agreement with Picard was reached last Friday and announced yesterday. Also, the Post is reporting that the Mets immediately used the proceeds from the sale of minority shares to pay off $100 million of the $430 million team debt. So they have just $75 million left to cover operating expenses this year and next. Which should be more than enough to meet any shortfalls.
Did I miss something? When did Fred Wilpon change his name to Michael Corleone? “Today I settled all family business.”
Perhaps all this will work out after all if Fred Wilpon realizes he’s not as spineless as everyone thinks he is. Back to baseball now. Let’s Go Mets!
Fred may be Michael, or even Vito. Jeffy is Fredo.
Ok, Ok, when they have it the spend it, But it changes nothing with regard to the fact that the minor league system has failed miserably under their stewardship and they have a history of kicking baseball people with their own opinion to the curb.. Bobby V; Dave Wallace, Joe McIlvaine, Davey Johnson, and so on and so forth….
So the status quo is more of the same.
Congratulations. The Wilpons have been freed, but we are still in prison for the long haul. Especially when Silver Spoon Jeffy takes full control. Let’s hope there are contingencies for Saul’s kids and Fred’s other son.
There’s no real ‘Vito’ or ‘Michael’ in this family. It seems like Fred and Jeff are ‘Fredo’ and ‘Fredo 2′, while Saul Katz is ‘Sonny’.
My hope is that Wilpon learned his lesson but that may just be wishful thinking on my part. Don’t know much about the other Wilpon/Katz kids.
As I have maintained from the very start Joe….
What Financial Difficulties? No one to date has ever showed where the WIlpons lost money, were going to lose money nor show where thier loss affected the mets and cost the mets money!
It was all just an excuse to play moneyball or a HOPE that these financial misreports were true because of hatred of the Wilpons!
Owners who have always spent when they could have been blamed for the lack of spending and financial ruin!
And their past spending has been blamed for ruining a team when the truth is the lack of winning isn’t due to the spending, it just wasn’t helped by the spending because you can’t buy your own health!
So it boils down to health? Not to say, spending next to nothing on player development? Not listening to your baseball people when you are down 7 games in July but want to hear you are in the playoff hunt so you go and trade your entire haul of prospects for Kris Benson and Victor Zambrano?
OK, they have spent and it’s all about health. Spoken like a true shill.
hey lenny care to show us the budget that shows we spent nothing on development?
Or are you just throwing stuff out there and hoping it sticks like most of the Anti-Omar pro Sandy lot does on a daily basis?
Only the fact that they’ve spent the 2nd fewest amount of money on the draft before last year since Wilpon bought out Doubleday.
Yeah it’s such an outdated baseball philosophy that has at it’s roots business reasons instead of baseball reasons when it’s the baseball team that drives the business, not the other way around.
The big expensive FA get loads of attention from the media. Loads of free publicity right as the tickets go on sale and they usually defer half of their first years salary so the cash is steaming in for two months before even a single check gets written, and then when it does it’s half the cost. Great business model but f*****ed up baseball one.
Signing those guys we drafted for a big market team with a history of great drafts in the prior 12-17 years should have been an absolute no brainer for this franchise which was raking in the cash from the mid 80′s to 1992. Just raking it in and “slotting guidelines” didn’t even exist until 2003.
Imagine 2B Fernando Vina, CF David Dejesus, 1B John Olerud, LF Rafeal Palmeiro, 3B Matt Williams, RF Darin Erstadt, SS Mark Grunzielanek, C Hundley/Dan Wilson SP Clemens, Erickson, Guthrie or Bobby Jones.
Or you could have the “worst team money could buy.”
Tough decision.
Yeah and it’s funny how now they’re saying the same thing about other teams drafting and failing to sign star players but are failing to mention that most of those teams have drafted and signed a lot of other star players. Boston, Seattle, San Fran, ,Cleveland was a superstar factory under John Hart, Montreal, Tampa. Sure every team fails to sign big time draft picks but do they fail as much as the Mets do and are they in the biggest market in the country. We’ve developed 3 star players over the last 20 years, 3. 3 players during that period with our resources is disgusting. Not one dominant pitcher since Gooden.
Show the budget that shows this because no one believes a word you say!
Only an idiot would dispute the fact we’ve only developed 3 allstar type players in the last 20 plus years. One of them is still on the team. Pitcher, try 30 years.
Some people would prefer to pick up a Vince Coleman, Bobby Bonilla, Mo Vaughn, Roberto Alomar, David Weathers, Jeremy Burnitz, Luis Castillo, Jason Bay than sign guys we actually drafted that would have cost an extra 100 G’s TOPS in most cases to skip college.
Certainly understandable considering how well most of our free agents have fared compared to guys who were 100 G’s too expensive to get their primes like Matt Williams, Darin Erstadt, Rafeal Palmeiro, John Olerud, David De Jesus, Dan Wilson, Roger Clemons, Scott Erickson, Jeremy Guthrie…………………………………………..
Come on with this. We just named dozens of good players in the shoutbox that were drafted by other teams and didn’t sign. It happens to every team. And a lot of those players probably wouldn’t have signed even if you did offer them more money to skip college.
We understand that you wouldn’t have wanted any of those guys we drafted on the Mets Vinny but what is your basis for saying most of then wouldn’t have signed with us for an extra 100 Grand?
Opinion or substance? I’ve read clemons said he wasn’t offered enough and would have signed if he had gotten a better offer but figured he would go from JC to Texas and see if he got a bigger bonus the following year.
I’m sure there were others that could have been persuaded as well.
Yeah which all star kid did Omar fail to sign tagee?
Do you have one or are you again attributing what your boy McIlvane did to Omar and Phillips again?
These are some of the players the Mets drafted but didn’t sign starting from 1985 and running through 1997.
Incidentally it was you claiming that Omar drafted people that Mcilvaine actually drafted like AJ Burnett for one.
Yes, I wouldn’t have wanted Clemens are Palmeiro on my favortie team. Yep. Only free agents. That’s all I care about.
Come on. I always talk about the Mets young players, and minor leaguers. In fact, I’m going to submit a fan post about that very subject right now.
So yu don’t have any names Omar failed to sign thank you!
One of Omar’s drafts had 5th and 6th round HS that went unsigned but the point isn’t the GM, it’s ownership that sets the budget and even before slot guidelines came out we were exceedingly stingy in the draft and then when they did come out we were their staunchiest supporter. Self serving if you ask me cause we wouldn’t sprinkle a little seed around before the guidelines everyone else ignored even came into being.
The list of guys unsigned guys spanned the tenures of Cashen, Harazin, Mcilvaine. There wasn’t anyone under Phillips that was drafted, went unsigned and became anything, but yes Omar had some and obviously it’s too early to tell and as so already has Alderson.
No team signs every guy they draft, they couldn’t even fit them all into the system if they did. Guys moving up from the DWL or VSL when we had a team their merge into the rookie leagues with the more advanced college kids going to the NY Penn League but there is hardly room for 50 new guys every year.
The point wasn’t about whether other organizations drafted guys, didn’t sign them and then those same guys became stars elsewhere because it’s a given that will happen to every organization simply for the fact that some guys are just going to college no matter what.
The point really is what organization has let more talent that they drafted go than us? And I’m not convinced that because Milwaukee, Oakland, Cleveland, Houston or whoever didn’t sign a guy their scouts and scouting directors loved that it has anything to do with us since the differences in the market we play in shouldn’t have precluded us from signing so many guys that won Cy Young’s or hit 500 HR’s and won batting titles and by enlarge those guys were drafted at the exact time we had money rolling like in like crazy. When Shea was filled to the brim every single night and the Mets owned NY.
Last year Josh Bell insisted he wasn’t signing and slid down to the 2nd round. He was a great student and both of his parents are teachers. He sent a letter to every single team asking them not to draft him. Pittsburgh did anyway and they signed him too. Cost them about 6 M which is way overslot but they got the guy they wanted. You would have thought that the scouts and scouting director loved Olerud, Palmeiro, Matt Williams, Darin Erstadt, Clemons and some of the lesser guys too like DeJesus, Atkins, Guthrie, Erickson and could have made a much smaller effort than it took the Pirates to get their guy.
Omar himself talked about the draft budget a few times on the MLB channel last year saying “you have to check with your owner and see what the budget will be.” Why would we in NYC have a draft budget? Why wouldn’t we go out and draft simply for top quality? Draft the best guys AND sign them? Then we wouldn’t have to give up 3 draft picks in 8 years for the same position.
there is no question that the ability to sign a guy enters into the thought process in selecting a player during the draft. If you have 10 M total and your first pick say Humber or Pelfrey gets 4 M that leaves you trying to economize elsewhere. Taking a medium floor/low ceiling 1 tool guy out of college instead of the bigger risk/bigger reward 4-5 tool guy out of HS who if he develops exactly the best you could hope for has the ability and talent to win MVP’s.
The reality is our draft budget has been 29th out of 30 for the last 25 years and a lot of people look at it backward and think the draft doesn’t produce. Well if your tying both hands behind your back of course it’s not going to produce.
Think about it, 29th out of 30 for 25 years.
Sandy Alderson had about 10 guys that didn’t get signed this year?
Where is the rant against him?
This is why it’s pretty dumb to take a HS kid because they all want to go to college and the only thing that stops them from going is a ton of money that shows them they won’t have to be smart and support themselves later on in life!
I find it just so odd that your willing to give big bucks to a HS kid who proved nothing but when it comes to a veteran MLB All Star it’s bad to spend!
If you make a mistake in the draft it doesn’t cost you losses in the Major leagues does it?
Your also not expecting every prospect to make it, what you should be doing is getting 3 elite talents at different levels of your system for each position. Total investment for all 3 maybe about 4-5 M. One makes it, one gets traded, one busts. The one that makes it cost you 10 M over his first 6 MLB seasons. Total cost 15 M for 6 years and 0 roster spots until he makes it up here.
Jason Bay on the other hand cost 16 M a year, one roster spot and very poor offensive production. Perez 12 M a year, Castillo 6 M a year, Alou 7.5 M a year, Wagner 11 M a year, Pedro 13 M a year. All these guys got hurt, played poorly or both so the thought that a proven MLB All Star doesn’t bust is stupid. They bust all the time. Figgins, Silva, Dunn, Werth, Crawford, Pavano, Neagle, Hampton, Lackey, Burnett, Perez, Zito, Whitson, Weathers, Appier, Cedeno, Coleman, Albert Belle, Soriano, GMJ,
Only an idiot would suggest that “proven MLB All Stars” are a sure thing.
Well according to you in the 4 score and 25 years ago speech it does doesnt’t it?
Isn’t that what you have been harping on for a year?
Omar in 5 years has drafted MLB players at the following positions in actuality and if you believe everyone’s opinion on the following…
Pelfrey
Davis
Tejada
Murphy
Duda
Thole
Niese
Gee
plus those great hopes of the future…everyone talks about
Harvey
Familia
Mejia
Kirk
Name a GM who has that many in 6 years worth of drafting make the MLB and are considered a basis of a good core?
Braves? Phillies? Yankees?
Four first basemen, two #5 SP’s, a #3 SP and a middle infielder in 6 years.
Well at least it beats 99% if nothing else.
Yep because when was the last time we had a top 10 pick?
2005 Pelfrey
And he nearly made the All Star game in 2010!
He’s an ace!
Give him a 7 year guaranteed deal.
Ok so tell us how all those Top 10 Picks those BRILLIANT drafters the Braves have taken done!
Braves had 6 Top 10 Picks from 1986-1991!
All they got was Jones out of it and thats because he was the top overall pick! Do they get him if they don’t lose wholesale?
Got Avery too with the 3rd overall…Not much better than Pelfrey
So they had 1 hit 5 misses in 6 years and you complain that we missed with pelfrey (and Humber) forgetting Harvey who was Omars ONLY top10 Pick other than Pelfrey!
He was 50/50 Braves were 25/75 and they are smarter than him despite having 6 consecutive chances!
funny but let me ask tag and Fonzie a question…
Who was the most successful and competitve GM we have had over the last 25 years you two keep blowing each other over?
Hmmm?
Who had more meaningfull septembers?
McIlvane?
Harazin?
Hunsicker?
Duquette?
Or Phillips and Minaya?
We all know Fonzie thinks that a team one game away from making the playoffs should be blown up…Do you agree with him Tagee?
I wouldn’t have blown up the team, I wouldn’t have picked up Delgado’s option, given Perez a 36 M deal or signed Bay though.
One of those ex GM’s got fired with a 51-41 record on July 16th 2.5 GB of the Wild Card and only one team to pass.
I definitely wouldn’t have done that.
That covers part two of the survey….
Fonzie wanted the team blown up in 2009!
Because they choked and that deserves some WRATH according to him! He wanted revenge!
Now what about Part 1?
Which GM had the most competitive septembers on that list?
Bay wasn’t signed in 2009, Was signed in 2010 largely because Beltran was hurt and Holliday was the only other big bat available in FA that year.
And if your were dead set on getting a bat that year your choices were him and Bay….
Looking at Matt’s splits he is a guy who hits dead Center
Bay was a Pull Hitter…There was decent enough statistical data to say he was the better choice! He hasn’t lived up to what the Statistical analysis said he was, Thats why Stats alone are a horrible way to judge a player!
Truth is the mnistake isn’t in signing Bay it was in not signing an Ace pitcher…
If they had and gained those 25-30 Quality starts they have a good shot at the Wildcard that year!
another 15-20 game winner puts us ahead of the Braves that year!
Could we have gotten Halladay? If not is that Omar’s fault? In year 5 and three years of being in the bottom half of three of four drafts?
WHo plays first for you if not Delgado?
But none of that is relevant…What I want to know is your answer to part I so we can get all this crap about Omar’s monkeyball right out of the way!
Well it’s stupid to look at spray charts alone (if that;s all they did) to decide between two free agents and who’s to say that the right decision was to buy either? Why be dead set on buying a bat especially for a position you could bury a weaker defender at of which we had plenty on the way up?
Holliday in Oakland in a park similar to Shea and in a weak lineup did squat. In St. Louis where he he wasn’t the guy he took off. Bay wasn’t the guy in Boston either and HR’s in Fenway wouldn’t be HR’s at Citi and if your a pitcher aren’t you going to pitch to the park? Trying to pull outside pitches is what lead to all those GB’s Bay hit.
Holliday was far better suited for Citi anyway when you take the HR’s out of the equation anyway because with such a large expanse to hit in the clear preference would be the line drive guy who hits to all fields. Tony Gwynn would have hit .400 here. That’s very elementary stuff and I find it difficult to believe that Bay was chosen because he was a pull hitter when it is so easy to nullify that. Bay was chosen because he was cheaper and would make a splash at ticket selling time, period. If he did workout it could have made all the irrational big money deals pay off but with so many strike outs and low OB% in the 2010 Met lineup no HR hitter would have made a difference and Holliday wouldn’t have been pitched to either.
Who you going to pitch to? Wright, Francouer, Barajas, Castillo, Pagan, Reyes or Holliday?
Again no answer to part I…Why? What answer are you avoiding making there?
Yes they used spray charts!
This is the NEW sabermetric way everyone says has made the traditional methods obsolete and antiquated!
Your just saying that Fonzie wanted revenge. He never said that. Your putting words in his mouth and that’s childish.
Maybe he felt the team as constructed was too weak to support more than a mediocre finish.
After 2008 I heard a lot of talk about trading Reyes and Wright so Fonze’s certainly not alone in his opinion but rather than putting words in his mouth why don’t you simply ask him what he would have done or why he would have blown it up?
After 2008 I would have offered Delgado arb and taken the pick and gone with some combination of plan B’s like Adam laroche/Nick Johnson/Darin Erstadt/Aubrey Huff and signed Eric Hinskie as a utility for the corners (IF and OF) Endy and Vladimir Guerrero for LF, Pinero/Garland/Padilla/Bedard for the rotation. Adam Kennedy Adam Everett or Felipe Lopez for 2B and Barajas/Olivio/Ausmus/Blanco/Zaun for catcher, Calero/Donnely for the pen.
All plan B types that don’t cost draft picks. one one or two year deals. I would have resigned Tatis and between him Hinskie and whichever 1B we got we’re good for a year or two but I want something out of Delgado and after two poor half seasons I can’t see him going on forever.
I don’t sign Ollie, I take the pick. I also get 2 picks from Wagner so that’s now 4 counting Delgado’s assuming he turns down arb. plus the 2nd rounder I save on Bay.
This is not a rebuild, it’s a retool. The core guys Reyes and Wright are still here and I seek to extend Reyes I use those 5 extra picks to hope that I can surround Reyes and Wright with a better supporting cast than was done in 2006-2008 cause the one we had wasn’t built for the long run.
One of the truly great lateral types of moves that feature plan B’s on two year deals like Bedard or Pinero for instance is that you can let your plan B go (in this case Perez) sign a similar guy and also pick up a supplemental draft choice. Delgado gives you the same situation and his poor first halves, defense, base running and age really tells you all you need to know about him going forward.
A huge part of being a GM is to have the balls to know when to say when and getting supplemental draft choices is a really big deal because in 3-5 years you could have a Travis d’Anaurd behind the plate, a Jon Lester on the mound, a Trevor Cahill or Houston Street in the pen but you have to plan for it ahead of time and you have to have the balls to know when to say when on your guys. that’s alot more difficult when you have no one coming up but the same holds true with Delgado and Perez now, they left nothing behind either.
Yet Again running away from the question!!!
And Fonzie did so say he wanted that team in 2008 blown up!
because he was pissed they choked!
Agee of course Fraudsie, I mean Metsie is putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about revenge. You know the way Metsie works agee, he’s full of shit as I keep exposing his lies. I said I would’ve blew apart that team and traded off Wright and Reyes who correct me if I’m wrong had wheel barrels of trade value. I would’ve declined Delgado’s option and offered him arbitration and recoup 2 picks that we always fail to do. I would’ve also tried to move Beltran but that would’ve been much more difficult with 3 years and close to 60 million left on his deal. Santana I could’ve gone either way with, he was still young enough to keep. The team that finished just a mere 1 game of the playoffs twice didn’t just miss the playoffs, they choked away a 7 game lead with 17 to play and a 4 game lead in the loss column with 9 to play. Since then we know the histroy so I would’ve been correct. Metsie would’ve kept playing checkbook baseball and our payroll would probably be about 300 million right now if he was GM. He would’ve packaged Wilmer Flores for anybody better than somebody else we have. Great trade proposal. Geez and we got stuck with Sandy when we could’ve had Metsie.
Two Cowards cowering in a corner refucing the answer the question because they know they would have to say Omar and prove everything I said correct!
Sad Sack!
Although it’s impossible to know what Metsie would have done (He’ll never say) some combination of Chone Figgins for 2B, Lackey in the rotation and Adam Dunn in RF (can back up CF too if Beltran goes down) , Pick up Delgado’s option (he was a plan B btw), sign Perez 3/36 (that’s what Omar would have done) and sign proven major league all star Jason Bay the next year.
Then he would move for summary judgement against the regular season claiming no one can beat us and demand the commisioner hand over the World series Trophy.
There is every chance Metsie goes Steve Phillips on us and trades Mejia, Familia, Harvey, Flores and Kirk, probably in a “package” for Victor Zambranno (who can start and close) Alfonso Soriano (for LF and SS if Reyes goes down, he played there before) and Milton Bradley (as a swing outfielder. one day in LF, next CF, 3rd day RF)
No Agee those guys would be packaged for anybody better than Victor Zambrano. No name required just anybody better.
LOL Fonzie, The old infamous BTVZTBNL.
Let me know when you two are done blowing each other!
Then answer the question you two girlies have been running from…
Who has been the most successful GMs making COMPETITIVE TEAMS in the last 25 years?
McIlvane? Tags GM Hero!
Harazin?
Duquette?
Hunsicker?
Or Omar and Phillips!
Funny but you both have run away like little girls because you know Philips and Omar were the only ones to get us TO a playoff!
And that would ruin your little 25 year Pajama Party!
Yawn. Still waiting! Can you possibly show me where it says Sandy didn’t make decisions before 1992. All you do is say it but you haven’t even provided a quote from anybody in MLB or a journalist, member of the print media, nothing. Stay classy though.
Still running like a girl I see….
Here is your answer! I don’t run from questions like you do Shirley!
“He didn’t have the baseball background of most GMs,” says Wally Haas Jr., the son of the owner and a vice president for the club at the time. “He got on the ground floor, kicked the dirt and relied on others around him who had more baseball knowledge.”
“The way I began was keeping my mouth shut,” Alderson says. “I tried to be respectful and learn as much as I could. ” (Note he began in 1983! When that championship run was started!)
You think he was throwing his weight around and picking McGwire only a year later?
Too Funny you provided the evidence that just proved your an idiot!
Champioship started in 1988 not 1983. They weren’t even over 500 until 88. What Sandy is saying there is that he leaned on others, he learned, kept his moth shut. Where doesit say he didn’t make decisions until 1992. Funny how you fail to mention, “He used advanced statistics to draft Mark McGwire, which happened in 1984. 8 years before 1992. You don’t make a draftpick if you are not making baseball decisions. You keep reaching and reaching but nowhere does it say he didn’t make baseball decisions until after 1992. Just show it and I’ll believe you.
Willie go round in Circles!
1988 is still years before Sandy started running the baseball dummy!
Your proof showed that!
LOL
My proof showed he drafted Mark McGwire in 1984 which by the way is still 8 years befor 1992. You still can’t find any proof to disclaim it. I see you’re still up looking for it. I’m staying up to wait. I have all night.
No it didn’t because it didn’t prove Sandy was in charge of baseball decisions before 1992!
Agee! Look how mad Metsie’s getting because I exposed him. LMAO… Here come the insults…. I said Phillips. Fraudsie. Do keep up?. Try a phonics book. You can learn how to read a little better.
No you exposed yourself when you posted that link about how Sandy wasn’t in control of baseball decisions until 1992!
I bet you expose yourself a lot!
Mostly to tagee from the sounds of you too kissing birds!
So who were the most successful Met GMs with playoff appearances in the last 25 years froggy?
what no snarky comeback just running from the question?
Whats the matter big man? Can’t answer?
I start to wonder if you and Tag aren’t the same guy!
Both running for the hills when challenged!
If Only I didn’t know he has more brains in the cuttings from his toe nails than you have in your entire body!
Your link porved my point and exposed you as a fraud! Live with it froggy!
In the last 25 years? Easy, Frank Cashen. He was the GM 25 years ago and is one of only 2 Met GM’s with a ring and also 2 eastern division titles.
Still running like the frightened School child!
Was Cashen listed there?
HAHAHAHAHAHA Run Run AWAY little doggie!
I’m still here. No one is gonna run away fro your bullshit. Learn how to ask a question.
So who were the most successful Met GMs with playoff appearances in the last 25 years froggy? Answer Frank Cashen.
No but you who ran away again…
Was Cashen on the list I gave you?
NO!
So you ran from the question as a good girlie does!
http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/minorleague/mets_draft_spending_bodes_well_for_lNjo8YypfUivke1caV47JM
http://stlucietoflushing.com/?p=412
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE1DA143FF933A15752C1A96F9C8B63
You may want to read this entirely.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15644
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/columns/story?columnist=rubin_adam&id=5494308
Need anymore proof? I have plenty more.
What’s the matter Metsie? Running from the proof you asked for? You wanted proof the Mets before 2011 were cheapskates on the draft. Must be taking you a while to come up with another spin job.
What proof?
None of those links proved a thing you have said this entire year!
I gave more proof to back up my claim in one post than you have ever provided. You asked for proof when both Agee and mysel fclaimedthe Mets were cheaps SOB’s when it came down to the draft. I provided but you’re not man enough to admit the fact that you were wrong. This is why you get taken to task for every single comment you post, because you’re full of shit.
By the way, Phillips had the most meaningful Septembers. For all the damage he did to the farm he at least got us to the WS. Thanks to the work of Joe McIlvaine.
Nothing in any of those links had anything to do with the claim you made here!
Sorry we aren’t all as dumb as you to think so!
So that’s the gist of it all. You can’t read very well. There’s plenty there that says the Mets have not spent much money on the draft before 2011 after Sandy got here. I proved it. Not that I really needed to. Most Met fans already know this. So lets sum it up. Metsie is always asking someone for proof whenever they comment and he doesn’t agree but never shows proof when he’s asked to provide it and then when you do provide it, he refuses to acknowledge it because Mr.Knowitall hates to be proven wrong, I’m guessing cause he’s always wrong. Have any proof the Mets before 2011 did spend alot of money on the draft? I showed my proof you just won’t admit it. You can show your proof that I’m wrong. I’ll take one link. I gave you five.
I think we’re nearing the point where Metsie makes the claim that Omar built those Oakland Teams that went to the World Series.
What will he say next? I wonder how many times he was dropped on his head.
Are we nearing the point where you stop wussing and cowering away from the question I asked about who has been the best GM for the Mets in the last 25 years?
Or you still going to hide under Fonzie’s cheerleading skirt?
You want answer but you never seem to want to give them!
I wonder why I should answer you when you refuse to answer me!
You keep insisting and yet I gave you three shots to answer the question I politely asked and you ran from on four seperate occassion!
Here is your fifth!
Answer! be a MAN! and stop hiding from the truth!
who has been the most successful GM in the last 25 years….Making the most competitive team since the 86er’s
McIlvane?
Harazin?
Hunsicker?
Duquette?
or Phillips and Omar?
Answer or be the coward again!
I will not answer any question posed by you until I get an answer on this one!
Phillips made the playoffs twice so he’s had the most success as a Met but I would take Hunsicker 1st and McIlvaine 2nd any day of the week over the other 3. How many more times are you going to ask this question and then claim I’m running from it, even though I’ve answered it every time.
yeah the greats of the GM world!
ROFLMAO!
Over guys who made the playoffs!
No wonder you wanted to blow up a team one game away from the playoffs it was too close for your comfort!
You may wanna check Hunsicker’s resume, He’s made the playoff’s 5X in his career as a GM in Houston and 3X as an assistant in Tampa. More than Omar and Phillips combined. How’s that team one game from the playoffs, you know the back to back chokers. How are things going with that cast of Omars characters?Pelfrey
Davis
Tejada
Murphy
Duda
Thole
Niese
Gee
plus those great hopes of the future…everyone talks about
Harvey
Familia
Mejia
Kirk
Pray tell what this teams record was last year? Juggernaut hah?
Yeah but not a thing when he was with the mets apparently!
You tell me how they are doing….Are they doing better than the team Omar had in 2006-2008?
You know the one you said you wanted gone for missing the playoffs by one game?
Then you should have a look at Joe Macs resume. He built the 86 Mets, since we know you don’t give the credit to the GM and Joe Mac was the VP of baseball ops from 86-90 and scouting director from 81-85/ A WS win for Joe Mac a eastern division in 88 and 6 playoff appearances with Minnesota as special asst to the GM. Both of my guys dwarf your guys.
AHhh so it was McIlvane now….Not Cashen?
I get it now…
You like posting things that go against what you say!
Explains the link about Sandy and now this!
CLUELESS!!!!!
You don’t read very well either!
Spending in the Minors is not thre key to winning anything!
Only you and Tag think that and you have to go back 25 years to find the worst examples of us doing it!
I will ask again knowing full well your idiocy will bypass it because it’s too hard a question for you to answer….
WHO DID OMAR FAIL TO SIGN?
You have NOONE!!!!!!!!!
Al, you have is supposition that we PASSED on guys because they ight have needed to be paid!!!
And all your links and little childish prattiling has yet to prove that is even true!
It’s about as true as your assertion that Sandy ran the baseball in the 80′s running up to 89 WS!
He didn’t!
It’s a fantasy story that you believed because you had no idea that just because your the GM doesn’t mean you make the baseball decisions!
Metsie — As I’m sure you know, budget vs money spent are two different parameters. So????
whats different about them?
One is just included in the other!
Your missing my point!
The way to FIX the finances is to generate more not spend less in the hopes it doesn’t make the budget go down further due to inferior product!
When cheaper product leads to fewer customers you didn’t save anything! You lost more than you gained!
Metsie you should have put some of your ideas on the website for people we should have gone after this past off season and some trade proposals.
I would have like to hear some of your ideas.
Just out of pure curiosity, which team do you have prior GM experience with? Show us your plan and why it would work. I’m sure Fred and Saul would love to hear it. You may even get to replace Sandy. Lets hear it.
Lets see same team as you have GM experience in where all your knowledge says to blow up a team one game away from a playoff!
I did sorry you missed them!
Just last week I was talking about packaging Flores in a deal for a CF or Catcher…
Hey I can play this too. Can we package Arod for a starter? No reason to name what starter, just a high end one.
The only decisions you can make is about who you HAVE not who someone else has!
If you think you can name a name in a trade proposal all your doing is playing Fantasy rotisserrie league….and thats all fantasy not a decision!
But saying who you are willing to part with to get what you want is all a GM can do!
Just because you can’t think of a name to trade for doesn’t mean there is no trade to be made!
I’m sure no one in Milwalkee was predictinbg they could get K-Rod for two do nothings and money subsidies before Anderson called them either!
Being a GM is about looking for assets of some value and deciding if you can or can’t use them.
Then calling around to see what you can get for those players.
Ask for a Catcher or CF and see what they will give you!
The trade value is made AFTER you see the player they are willing to part with not before!
You guys wouldn’t know that because you have never been involved in negotiating a corporate deal in your life!
Mine have not been related to baseball but negotiating is the same regardless of what business your in!
I have something you may want, You have something I may want how do we make a deal?
Right but having a 5 dollar bill and wanting to trade it with 4 ones for a 10 dollar bill makes no sense at all.
Also to your point, we can all say what you said. I want to trade David Wright for a front end starter, good luck. I want to package Gee and Niese for a true young Ace….. yippie. I am having fun now.
Finally, you are saying that the Brewers did not know they could get Krod for almost nothing? Sure they did as did every team in the MLB. The Mets were actively shopping him from the time that Sandy took over because of the awful option. Almost every team knew they could have Krod for salary relief what they did not know is that the Mets would actually pay some of the cost to get a little more back in return and make sure he wasn’t there.
If you ask me seems like Sandy took that deal not once with K-Rod but twice with Wheeler!
So you think all our players suck and aren’t worth squat!
yet everything is great right?
LOL, so even though GM’s around baseball said that there was no way the Mets could get a top prospect like Wheeler from the Giants and were amazed when they did you still think it was just a dump.
Also where did I say our players suck? I am saying that you can’t make Flores turn into a top player. Prospects are graded for a reason and regardless if you like the gradings or not they are relevant to value because those grades take into account what GM’s are saying. Thus you can’t get an A prospect by trading a B and a few C’s. You think you are getting a #1 pick in the NFL draft for a #2 and 3 #5′s?
Any negotiation in any business involves first seeing how you can help someone else and then seeing how they can help you.
A week ago the thought of Picard helping the Wilpon’s pay their debt would have been laughable, but the Wilpon’s allowed Picard to keep a very important tool in his belt (6 years instead of two) and keeping that tool will help Picard get a lot more out of the 250 other suits he has filed and consequently help him pay down what the Wilpon’s owe.
Picard also didn’t want to offset the winning accounts with the losing accounts. He wanted to settle the winners than address the losers. He got that too but the Wilpon’s in essence got that as well since Picard has 7 years of collecting and subtracting before the Wilpon’s have to settle up.
They both got exactly what they wanted and a week ago who would have thought Picard would be paying down that debt for the Wilpon’s? No one.
Yep a known All Star straight up for a AA Pitcher?
Not enough!
They didn’t even take on a cent of Beltran’s Salary!
“Also where did I say our players suck?”
Well you say they aren’t worth squat!
Why do you think that pray tell? Because they are all great?
Flores has basically fallen off the map so just because I don’t think you are netting much with a package centered around him doesn’t mean I think there is no talent in the minors. Wheeler, Harvey, Familia those guys would net you decent players. You want to trade them?
wrong tag!
negotiations don’t start by you looking how to help someone else it starts by looking at what you have someone else MIGHT want, But does NOT help you!
Wright could help a lot of teams you don’t call them up and say what will you give me for him you come up with what they have you want and ask for them then offer wright to them!
As for a week ago and Picard I have said all along the suit was folly and the Wilpons would come out winners!
And yet many here think it was wise to decimate a team merely because of the worry of the suit!
Maybe even Sandy himself I can’t say!
To your point on Beltran, I am pretty sure 9/10 GM’s in Sandy’s position would have done that move and many even said they did not think the Mets could get a top prospect for Beltran. Also, he was an All-star that you had no control over at the end of the season.
flores should have been traded before it got out that he was falling….
THATS the point!
If you only trade players that are good you will never fix the team!
You need to package the crap in with that good and get something more….
Why not throw Flores into the Beltran deal and get the best catcher in the Giants system since they have Posey there?
Why not throw someone into the K-Rod package and get a good position player instead of the Bullpen crap we got?
As I ask all the time and you guys run away from….
We let three All Stars go and what have we gotten of any worth in return?
Wheeler and what else?
If you are going to trade three allstars to get one player then you need to come up with 90 All Stars to build one team of prospects!
yet this is the plan and deals you say are good!
Your pretty sure…so basically your guessing but used that guess as a fact right?
Which catcher and who else in the package with Flores?
Keep in mind that Montero, Norris, d’Anaurd and Grandal were traded for ace or #2 quality starting pitchers (Pineda, Gio, Halliday and Latos)
A package of Flores, Fern, Valdespin and Havens isn’t getting one of those guys.
Anyone better than Thole!
How about that?
Your the MiL expert…how long is the list of catchers better than Thole?
As for what gets those guys well thats your opinion….
Just as at the time no one thought the bunch of players we traded for Piazza was worth a dime!
I bet the A’s, Pirates and all those other moneyballers have someone who is better than Thole and they love those deals that stuff their minors at the expense of their MLB fortunes!
Impressive! Package Flores with who for which catcher? I’m sure there are plenty of teams willing to give up a good catching prospect for a prospect who’s stock has fallen without a set position. It must’ve taken you some real hard thinking to put that one together. The old package so and so for what we need. Easy to just say, much harder to come to fruition.
Sorry Donal II I already said who…ANYONE better than Thole!
I’ll let you decide who that might be since your so smart for blowing up a team that is one win away from the playoffs!
That trade will work. Metsie calls another GM and says I’ll package Wilmer Flores and a player to be named later for anything you have better than Josh Thole. The other GM says, Huh??? Excellent plan!
No oe is really going to pay attention to you anymore because the second Sandy gets within one game of the playoffs you will want to blow it up for choking!
Just watch the games on TV until the Mets ownership puts a competitive team on the field.
T agee,
The Brewers drafted Jason Giambi, Nomar Garciaparra, Hunter Pence, Jeromy Burnitz, Andrew Bailey, Jemile Weeks, Jake Arrieta, and Matt morris, and didn’t sign them.
the Orioles drafted Cliff Lee, Mike Young, Jamie Garcia, Tim Stauffer, and Mike Mussina(they did pick him again 3 years later and signed him though), and didn’t draft them.
Countless numbers of players like Utley, Ellsbury, Ian Kennedy, Max Scherzer, Ian Kisler, John Axford, Mark Mcgwire, Randy Johnson and Tim Lincencum, were drafted by other teams also, and didn’t sign. It happens to every team, not just us.
Thanks Vin,
Not putting in words in your mouth, just asking a question.
You don’t feel that a team in NYC shouldn’t have (or couldn’t have allocated more money to the draft than Milwaukee or Baltimore?
Secondly the point never was that ONLY we have failed to sign guys we drafted it was the overall level of talent we drafted and didn’t sign that so far and away surpasses that of any other team, AND the fact that one would think if any team could have spent on the draft that we were far better positioned to do so. I really can’t see why anyone would seek to justify us being last or second to last in draft spending even before the advent of slot guidelines.
I really don’t think the talent levels you provided of the players Milwaukee or Baltimore didn’t sign anywhere even remotely stack up against the guys we didn’t sign (Olerud, Palmeiro, Matt Williams, Erstadt, Clemeons, Wetland, Erickson, Dan Wilson, Guthrie) and they sure didn’t have the kind of money rolling in that the Mets did in the middle to late 80′s and early 90′s so I’m not sure what your saying here.
That our advantage in revenue shouldn’t be used to further the cause of winning baseball games? That we should have a small market mentality with regard to the draft? We should forget about the draft entirely or what?
We already know that not every player will be signed by any team but no team in MLB has left more talent unsigned than the one in the biggest market in the whole country and at a time when the Team was making tractor trailer fulls of cash and didn’t have any slot guidelines to consider.
That I find inexcusable and the fact that we have consistently been 29th out 30 since the guidelines came in is equally inexcusable.
What about the Dodgers drafting and not signing Chase Utley, David Price, Randy Wolf, Paul Goldschmidt, Phil Nevin, Paul Quantrill, Mike Fetters, Luke Hochevar(Twice), and Mark Mealoncon?
Wait, the Brewers didn’t remotely stack up against us? Guys like Jason Giambi and Nomar Garciaparra don’t even remotely stack up against our picks? Come on.
And how do you know the talent we drafted and didn’t sign was far and away better than any other team? Did you look at all their drafts? Every team? I’ll only looked at a few teams, and it has taken a very long time, so I know that doing every team would take hours. I can’t imagine somebody having the patience to do all that work.
Giambi and Garciaparra vs Clemons, Palmeiro, Olerud, Matt Williams, Wettland, De Jesus?
C’mon, and really Jamaile Weeks? C’mon your self. And as I said before I restricted the picks from 1985-1997 which was well before the slot guidelines came in.
I’ve always followed the draft so I have a very good idea of which teams have done well and which ones haven’t and through the years before Steve Phillips was hired our organizational philosophy was big on HS kids and low and behold you’d see the same names come back around 3 years later and then again in Baseball America and then into the Majors themselves.
You can research it all, take my word for it or just drop it but you won’t find another Major league team that drafted as much talent as we did from 1980-1997 and the sad fact is 90% of the talent we drafted, we didn’t sign. The slowdown really started as early as 1985 if you can believe it. Sorry that’s just a fact. After 1997 we stopped drafting well entirely with really just a few exceptions here and there (Wright, Ike, Harvey) some useful guys for a short time (Heilman, Pagan, probably Duda) That would be two excellent drafts and we accomplished this over a 15 year period.
Forgot to include Kazmir and Niese, but when you mention the Dodgers why don’t you keep in mind the guys from the draft that they did sign and compare those results to ours.
Now the list you made up of the players the Dodgers didn’t sign is no where as impressive as the ones the Mets didn’t sign and it’s not even from the same time period and there is one other key distinction.
The Dodgers were drafting and signing well AND getting great talent out of Latin America too.
We have never worked the draft and the IFA market at the same time. We did make some in roads under Harazin and Mcilvaine with Endy, Dotel, Scutero, Escobar but that mostly fell off under Phillips except for Reyes.
So yeah the Dodgers left a few guys on the table and so did everyone else but no one left the sheer volume of talent on the table as we did, not even close and for a team that has only developed 3 terrific players in 20 years and has so many inherent advantages in market size, revenue it’s just flat out disgusting that we could actually draft the right guys and then not sign so many that wound up having great careers full of all Star games, MVP’s, Cy Youngs, 500 HR club ect ect and in comparison to the the All Star games, MVP’s, Cy Youngs and 500 HR club that we have gotten……..well lets just say that the scales are tipped a little the wrong way.
Yeah and leave out allstars that they drafted like Hunter Pence, Jeromy Burnitz, Andrew Bailey. And you can count Guthrie against us, but I can’t count Weeks for the Brewers? I’ll tell you one thing, I’d MUCH rather have Weeks on my team right now than Guthrie.
Your the one who should drop this. I’ve shown three teams already that have drafted a bunch of allstars and didn’t sign them, and named dozens of players already that have been drafted by other teams haven’t signed. So, you should drop this – Every team in the majors has a long list of good players that they drafted in and didn’t sign. What your saying means nothing.
And anyway this isn’t a problem anymore for the Mets. there’s only two active players that your talking about, Dejesus and Guthrie(yawn). But your Braves have let some good active players just go to college. Active players that they let go to college: Brandon Belt, Andrew Cashner, Freddy Sanchez, Dallas Braden, and Scott Downs. They even did it with Kimbrel too. They drafted Kimbrel in 07, and just let him go to college. Good thing they were lucky enough to get him back again a year later.
And that’s only active players, I didn’t bother looking at their other drafts. But I do know they let Randy Johnson just go to college too.
Well your just using a different time frame then I am. As I’ve told you a bunch of times I’m talking about 1985-1997. of course most of those guys are gone and there is no organization in MLB during that period of time that drafted so well and signed anywhere near as poorly as we did. No one.
If you want to drop it go right ahead, your interest is in getting older players anyway, I have no idea why you even responded to this post since it doesn’t fit in with your preferred method of acquiring players.
Your perfectly content with only going to the playoffs when the Marlins give us their best players anyway. Why don’t you write about how often that’s worked?
Here I’ll save you the time. 3 times in 23 years, there you go.
I think Lee, Young, and Mussina was in the timeframe your looking for. I’ve listed players during 85-97 as well as more recent drafts. If I had more time, I would look at more team’s drafts in the 80′s and 90′s. I’m sure there are teams that come close to the Mets.
I actually care a lot about the draft too. I just don’t like unfairly attacking past GM’s because they didn’t sign players that they drafted because EVERY major league team has done that. Tons of good major league players have been drafted, and didn’t sign.
You also don’t even know if these players would have signed anyway even if they did offer more money. And do you know for a fact that the Mets didn’t try to offer these guys more money? Or are you just assuming they didn’t?
The period of time I brought up encompasses 3 different GM’s tenure, Cashen, Harazin and Mcilvaine so I don’t get how your coming to the conclusion that I’m attacking a GM.
They don’t set the draft budget anyway. The owner does.
Same as any other business in any other industry anywhere in the world.
Yes it does but most of those other teams also draft stars that they do sign. How many have we developed the last 20+ years? That would be 3. Alfonzo an IFA, Reyes an IFA and Wright, the only one for the draft. Pitchers? The last stud pitcher was Gooden, unless I’m missing someone. That’s 30 years ago.
See that’s the real issue. If we had been drafting all these types of guys and signed half of them that would be one thing but 90% of the guys who are least worthy of discussion and votes for the HOF we didn’t sign and the two we did flamed out.
But again, with no slotting guidelines in place and a proven scouting system with a good history of success (Dykstra, McDowell, Myers, Mitchell, Aguilera, Mookie, Hundley,ect) and battleships full of cash pouring into Shea Stadium why wouldn’t you spread around some cash on the best amateur talent available?
That’s what I’d like to know.
Why? Because 99% of dratfed players aren’t worth it and even make the MLB!
Where’s your source for that Metsie? Care to prove it or are you just talking about our results.
Facts are other teams have been quite a bit more successful than that.
Quite a bit.
Tally up all the kids drafted since 1980 and how many MLB players there have been since then.
tell me what percentage of players drafted actually make the MLB!
You said it, you tally it up.
Back up your own claim.
I did…99% Care to prove otherwise knock yourself out!
I’m not in the habit of providing information to people who wish to say I’m wrong but can’t prove it so they instead ask me to make their case for them!
Got a point? Make it!
I’m not your seal waiting to jump through hoops you hold up because you have no treat for me once I do!
Well if your point is too meaningless to you to even attempt to back it up than it’s equally meaningless to me. Basically,
Your point is pointless.
Carry on.
So let me get this straight…
You want me to post a comment with the 12000 Names of everyone who was drafted and then another list of the players who have been in the MLB for the last 20 years too…
Thats what you want?
have fun!
I did the research in my calculator!
Come on over and I’ll show it to you!
You want to prove I/m wrong then go right ahead!
But otherwise I’m not going to do work for you!
99% of all drafted players never make the MLB!
There are only 750 MLB players in any given year and most of them are filled by the same 300-400 Guys each year for 15-20 years! The other 300 guys fill those positions for 5-10 years!
1500 Players drafted a year! And thats just in June!
About 50-60 new guys make the MLB each year….
Now you think more make it fine show it or just shut up trying to make me stay up all night because you can’t admit how wrong you are about how valuable all this drafting is!
Most kids drafted never make the MLB!
And most who do don’t last very long!
I’m sorry am I keeping you up? Pray tell all the star players to come through the Mets system over the last 25 years? Pray tell the stud pitcher to come through the Mets system in the last 30 years?
Your not keeping me up!
I’m earning about 5K working on a company’s website and beating you up with your own evidence in between pages!
“The way I began was keeping my mouth shut,” Alderson says. “I tried to be respectful and learn as much as I could.”
Kept his mouth shut and learned and then one year later drafted Mark McGwire in 1984. Yeah I’m sure you made a swift 5K. LMAO.
too bad for you what you said was complete bullsht!
Jesus, Metsie, did you seriously just brag about how much money you make? In an internet discussion about baseball?
I wonder what Minaya’s plan for catcher was.
Maybe Valdespin could play there too.
Maybe that was the plan.