I only took exception to the incorrect comment from Metsie that Sandy had very little to do with the team that won their 1st 3 pennants and 1 WS title in Oakland. What he did with Oakland does not gaurantee he will do here, It’s like the stock market. Past performance is no indication of future results. Lol.

I didn’t know how to say your name in Yiddish, I’m tongue tied on that one. I assumed you were Paisan when you said Ciao.. Lol… I’ll stick with Joey.D for now.

“Hey Giuseppe!”? Took me a few seconds to realize you were talking to me! LOL

We both agree that when it comes to draft picks it’s the scouts that do the work for it is physically impossible to have it any other way. This might be a call to many to curb their enthusiasm about “Sandy’s” draft picks for they are really more reflective of the organization.

And as far as drafting players, it’s the people chosen by the G.M. who make or break the team. If one relies almost entirely on those people the less credit one should get for BASEBALL instincts compared to ADMINISTRATIVE ones, as opposed to the more baseball astute general who takes more DIRECT RESPONSIBILITY in making the final decision. And it’s too early yet to give Sandy credit for assembling his own type of scouting system for when he came aboard, the scouts under Omar had already spent the prior summer looking at the progress of those coming up for eligibility in 2011. He could not make drastic changes from day one for that would be business suicide. Rather, those changes come slowly. And who knows whom in the organization alerted Sandy to Zach Wheeler – one of Sandy’s eventual chosen people or one left over from the former administration?

The same applies to the general managers you mentioned who had no background in their respective sports and thus goes to prove my point about the general manager of one team having a different job description than the general manager of another. If Sandy went into Oakland with no knowledge, then with the proper business and/or legal credentials, so could you, I and Metsi (Moe, Larry and Curly Nyuk, Nyuk?).

So in essence, there are two extreme types of general managers – those who are involved in the ADMINISTRATIVE end of things and the other who is involved in the COMPETITIVE end of things. The ideal G.M. is one who can do both.

The point to keep in mind is the aspect I am talking about – the one who is really responsible for making a team competitive. From the research available, it appears Sandy is not the type who molds TEAMS as much as he is the type who molds ORGANIZATIONS. In this respect, he deserves credit for being a top BUSINESS EXECUTIVE but not a top BUILDER of teams.

it might also be viewed as an admittance by the Wilpons that they are better off staying away from the day to day operation of the club (since it is losing so much money?) and leaving it up to Sandy. We don’t know. Either way, only time will tell if this strategy results in taking two steps forward after taking that one step back.

Ciao,
Yitskhok (my Yiddish name LOL)

So to my satisfaction, the Wilpons called the shots, as they should have, and Sandy Alderson, despite any comments he made, operated within the parameters and constraints set by Fred and Saul.

” What we need to know now is what edict Sandy had been given as far a budgetary constraint is concerned, whether or not he is fully using the amount given to him, if he’s making the calls on the player moves mostly on his own or relying on the financial edicts given to others below him for the ultimate player personnel decisions “.

Any guess?

Ciao,

Joey I don’t think any of us can honestly answer this queston with any certainty. We can all speculate one way or another. We’ve heard 3 or 4 different payroll estimations going back to spring training last year. First we heard the 2012 payroll will be around 120 million, then it was 110 million, then it was 100. It’s about low 90′s right now. Some of the budget has to be used for the draft bonuses. He may have been able to spend more but decided not to or he may have been told by ownership not to. I wish I was a fly on the wall during their meetings.

They did shave off about 50 million from last years payroll, I wouldn’t think that’s all because the GM doesn’t want to spend it. The free agent market really wasn’t all that strong either the last 2 offseasons so who knows. Next offseason there will be some big players on the market unless they resign with their current teams like Matt Kemp. If we don’t sign anybody at all like this year than I’ll start to think it’s Sandy. Unless they get hammered in the Madoff suits, which I have doubts they will. If Matt cain and Vole Hamels ar on the Market and we don’t at least make a strong effort to sign one of them, then I’ll be right with the Sandy bashers.

You can basically say that about the majority of all sports GM’s. No GM is going from city to city to scout H.S. amd college players, so yeah it’s the people he puts in place that do the groundwork. He had very good evaluators on his staff. One of them being Walt Jocketty.
He was hired in 81 as Oaklands General Counsil, it wasn’t until 83 when he took over the GM duties. 95 was when he was forced to cut payroll by Steve Schott. He started studying analytics before he was the GM, so he started the sabermetric usage well before 95. Like I said, saying he had very little to do with assembling the championship teams from a pure baseball standpoint is purely false. That would be like saying Franks Cashen had very little to do with the 86 Mets. He also had a great staff. Unless you show me evidence that says he had little to do with those teams, I’m not buying it.

Personally I can’t see why we couldn’t have bought as many guys from FA as we wanted and just gone over slot to recoup the the lost talent. That combined with the 7th – 13th round talent Minaya did produce and some of the IFA’s on the way would have kept the talent flowing.

We just spent all the money on this years roster and I don’t think that was all Omar’s doing. I think there were certain policies in place that inhibited a large draft budget but just about everyone ignored it from NYY to Boston, Texas (while being run by MLB) KC, Pittsburgh, TB ect from 2005 on and while the guys we got to have that success are mostly long gone, those other teams have fully filled minor leagues.

Interesting idea about a prospect like Flores for a better fit (maybe a catcher) Milwaukee had just busted their farm open for Marcum and Greinke but maybe someone else might have had a good fit. Still and all obvious getting out from the option was limiting as to who we could talk to as they A) had to be in contention and B) already have an established closer and C) have a need for a set up guy.

If Minaya had a draft budget to work with I’m sure rounds 3, 4, 5 and 6 could have produced numerous intriguing prospects both to other teams and to help form a competent roster even as early as last year.

One or two dependable arms and a couple of catchers would make this team look a hell of a lot better.

The Buying of talent was every bit a play to get people in the stands and it did that…
WHILE it did that it also produced three pretty solid seasons!

I can’t knock that! The other regiemes of which you speak fell even shorter in their buys than Omar did!

2000 the difference of 2001 is having hampton or someone like him to replace him in 2001!

What would buying another ace PLUS hampton done for us?

As for K-Rod the issue isn’t the dump the issue is what we got for the dump did nothing for the future of this ballclub!
It was the perfect deal to package a kid with to get something that would!
Throw Flores in for a top prospect if thats what it takes!
Those are the deals that are worth doing because your trading away two guys, one without a position, one that saves money and get something that might fill a position of need later not two gys who can’t even make the squad after Byrdack went out for injury!

I saw that article and you might have noticed I quoted a lot from it, but kept it to Sandy’s experience.

But if you note that while Sandy was learning money ball (and sabremetrics) the article did not mention when he started putting that into practice. From what I’ve seen all over the web was that he adopted this back in 1995 when the owner passed away and the new ones wanted to cut back drastically.

A good executive does surround himself with the best personnel he or she can. That being said, one who is less hands on in the functioning of the baseball end and relies more on those he or she hired gets more credit for it’s really those working underneath that did all the leg work.

So in that case, the credit for Oakland’s success can go to more Sandy the businessperson than Sandy the baseball person. What we need to know now is what edict Sandy had been given as far a budgetary constraint is concerned, whether or not he is fully using the amount given to him, if he’s making the calls on the player moves mostly on his own or relying on the financial edicts given to others below him for the ultimate player personnel decisions.

Any guess?

Ciao,
Joe

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050501/news_1s1alderson.html

Walter Haas who was the owner even said it was Sandy. If you’re not going to believe him, then who are you going to believe?

” From what I researched and was surprised to find, is that Sandy admits to not having professional baseball knowledge (which is different from having a fan’s knowledge) after completing his legal responsibilities for Oakland. The skill and knowledge in evaluating talent, weighing in trades, putting together a minor league system, etc. is so complex that a non-baseball person can’t simply learn it in a few years – if at all. That just doesn’t make sense.”

I thought you already knew that Joey. He’s talked about that numerous times. he had zero backround in player scouting and developement, which is why he did things differently. Statistical analysis, he was the first one to rely heavily on statistical analysis and now most teams are.

“No, it seems more likely that Sandy delagates those baseball related assignments to others and relies on their judgements like many higher ups in other businesses do. I cannot agree with you on this one. And, as so many have pointed out, in some organizations the role of the general manager is defined in terms of the financial and legality end, not the baseball decision end.”

All GM’s rely on various baseball people in their organization. Cashen didn’t have any backround either. Do you think he turned on a switch and became a baseball evaluator?. The role of the GM is both financial/legal and baseball. That’s why they have assistants.

“The bottom line again is that nobody outside baseball with no inkling of the game’s internal workings can come in and turn a losing franchise into a championship”.

Yes they can Joey, he did, Frank Cashen did and many more. He just did things differently. Not all GM’s have baseball backrounds and that goes for all sports. Dave Checketts has been a NBA GM and almost got a job as a NHL President. He was interim president for the Rangers although for a short while. Every team has many people involved in the decision making, it all goes throught the GM and even the GM has a boss. This is not news.

With K-Rod it’s very difficult to trade big contracts and get something for the guy and clearly the deal was to save 14 M in 2012. Yeah we didn’t get that reinvested in the team but the owner’s probably thinking “at least we could get out of it unlike Castillo, Perez and Bay who are still bleeding me dry and no one will take THEM off my hands at any price.

Unfortunately many decisions around here for a long long time have been made for business reasons. I do wish one more had been though. The Wilpon’s telling Alderson the payroll’s 90 M unless you sign Reyes, then it’s 110 M. That’s not an unrealistic scenario at all and would have paid for itself in my opinion.

I know you hate the way the last two off seasons have gone but I’m sure you don’t think Alderson came here to try to make a run for it with Lucas May, Rob Johnson and Craig James do you? I’m sure you won’t answer that honestly but really do you?

Like it or not we have these holes and lack of depth for a reason. A reason that has existed for a very long time. Something that could have been addressed as a big market team could by going overslot with 4-5 picks after the ones you gave away for FA’s and gotten some top young all around high end talent here as well as the Murphy’s, Duda’s, Niese’s ect and then had the time to wait out the lagares’, Flores, Familia and Mejia and Valdespin.

Doing all things to continue what Pedro, Beltran et al started here with Reyes and Wright.

Metsie we didn’t get this bad in just a couple off seasons. it’s been building for a decade and a half. We could continue to shovel **** at it but even in the infintismal chance that we could get one we’d still be back down the toilet in a few years.

The bill for going for it every year has been presented and now it’s time to start paying it off. Hopefully it won’t take that long.

Also I take whatever a Wilpon says with a grain of salt. Didn’t they say the Madoff Scandal would have zero impact on the Mets. How’s that playing out? Didn’t Jeff Wilpon with Omar sitting next to him in the booth with Mike Francesa say the Mets will do everything possible to filed a competitive team after the 09 season. What they do? Sign Jason bay and not much else. I trust a Wilpon Comment as far as my farts can travel. I’m not saying these decisions are not Sandy’s but I’m not believing for one second that they’re not financially motivated from ownership.

From what I researched and was surprised to find, is that Sandy admits to not having professional baseball knowledge (which is different from having a fan’s knowledge) after completing his legal responsibilities for Oakland. The skill and knowledge in evaluating talent, weighing in trades, putting together a minor league system, etc. is so complex that a non-baseball person can’t simply learn it in a few years – if at all. That just doesn’t make sense.

No, it seems more likely that Sandy delagates those baseball related assignments to others and relies on their judgements like many higher ups in other businesses do. I cannot agree with you on this one. And, as so many have pointed out, in some organizations the role of the general manager is defined in terms of the financial and legality end, not the baseball decision end.

The bottom line again is that nobody outside baseball with no inkling of the game’s internal workings can come in and turn a losing franchise into a championship team.

They made a cheap competitive team that never got much further than Omar did!”

Metsi, now thems are fightin’ words. Sandy and Beane did not create moneyball teams that were cheap and competitive – they were cheap and non-competitive (considering their rapid fall in the standings as player personnel changed with a falling payrolls).

Were they Lying? Possible not saying it’s not. Just pointing out that Sandy whined all offseason about the need to only have two big salaries, the lack of money, and that it was his desire to not spend a lot so he could by quantity as opposed to quality….

And his past record shows thats pretty mucb what he has always done!

Yes you found some good articles there to illustrate what I was saying!
Sandy didn’t DECIDE baseball moves that led to 1989 and spending. He wasn’t the guy in total charge of baseball until 1991 and 92!

Should he get some credit for it? Of Course he was there but he was not the architect many of his supporters make him out to be!

What he DID create was the Moneyballing teams of the mid 90′s with his push for statistical (easy for a business guy to understand a spreadsheet) approach and Billy Beane to run with it!

They made a cheap competitive team that never got much further than Omar did!

Made a few more playoffs because they were in a weaker division than us and didn’t have a Braves to contend with!

Me and you are square here just pointing out how little evidence there is that the Wilpons had anything to do with the cuts and what exists is assumption based on their own legal issues not any loss of money by them in the past 4 years!

The team lost money and Sandy being a business man has every right to conclude he needs to make cuts to balance the books but we should not pin that decision as a handcuff by the owner or anyone’s idea but Sandy’s own!

His past history and his own words have said so, and the words of the Wilpons also says they had nothing to do with it!
And I’m tired of folks (not you!) trying to make it out to be that way when all the evidence points to the contrary all in the name of saving Sandy from being idicted for his own decisions!

“In fact there are quotes from Wilpon to the contrary!

So there is much more proof that Sandy wanted the cuts on his own without Wilpon forcing his hand and more evidence that Sandy has NEVER spent a lot in the past than there is for the Wilpons who have ALWAYS spent telling him not to!”

Metsi,

I’m not sure how to take that comment. I was indeed saying that you raised a very valid point that could not be dismissed and I provided backup to help prove the point you were making. My only disagreement with you was before all this was brought up and now we might only disagree about the Wilpon role in all this – my own personal thought is that the Wilpons were looking exactly for the type of dollar-conscious individual Sandy was and that the moves he’s making are with their blessings.

In fact there are quotes from Wilpon to the contrary!

So there is much more proof that Sandy wanted the cuts on his own without Wilpon forcing his hand and more evidence that Sandy has NEVER spent a lot in the past than there is for the Wilpons who have ALWAYS spent telling him not to!

I was skeptical about what Metsi was implying until I did some research on my own and came up with some very revealing information:

FROM USA TODAY 8/24/10: When Billy Martin was fired in 1982, Alderson took over his duties as general manager with the leanest of baseball resumes. He was 35.
“He didn’t have the baseball background of most GMs,” says Wally Haas Jr., the son of the owner and a vice president for the club at the time. “He got on the ground floor, kicked the dirt and relied on others around him who had more baseball knowledge.”
At the time, he was an outsider in a sport ruled by insiders set in old-school ways.
“The way I began was keeping my mouth shut,” Alderson says. “I tried to be respectful and learn as much as I could.
“At the same time, I wasn’t burdened with a lot of traditional knowledge or experience.”
He used that to his advantage and became a new breed of baseball executive who relied heavily on statistical tendencies and developed a farm system relying on those statistics.

FROM THE NEW YORK TIMES 10/8/10: “Then, when Billy Martin was fired as the team’s general manager in 1982, Alderson took on that role although he was just 35 and had never played baseball in the minor or major leagues.
To compensate for his atypical baseball background, he began studying the sport as if it were a law course. Curious, willing to think outside the box, he inevitably became interested in the works of the baseball statistician Bill James. As a result, he helped lay the groundwork for the use of sophisticated statistics in constructing a team.”

FROM MLB.COM 1/10/11:”… after Alderson undertook much of the sale’s legal work, Eisenhardt offered his new friend a job. And Alderson, with no background in the game — with no motivation, really, save for a modest dislike of the legal world — experienced the second “Why not?” moment of his career.
“It was very serendipitous, I guess,” Alderson said. “I figured it would be fun and I’d try it. I could always be a lawyer.”
He wasn’t sure, though, if he could be a baseball man. Few attorneys existed in the game’s front offices when Alderson stepped into Oakland’s Coliseum for the first time as general manager; teams did not regularly employ one or two as they do today. So Alderson remained an anomaly throughout his early days in the Bay Area — not necessarily shunned or disrespected, but certainly not embraced. For his part, Alderson believed he could be among the first of a new breed. That economists, and not lawyers, eventually began invading baseball’s front offices en masse is a story for another day.
Though Alderson didn’t particularly care how others in baseball perceived him, he did understand his place. He was quiet then, seeking to remain so as he soaked up the intricacies of the game. There was much to learn, much to understand, much to troubleshoot. Alderson was a lawyer — and a young one, at that — in the world of Buzzie Bavasi, in the world of Spec Richardson, in the world of hey-kid-let-me-show-you-how-it’s-done. Navigating such a world could be challenging, if not harrowing. Harvard hadn’t offered a class on Jose Canseco And so Alderson made the requisite mistakes at first, learned from them and won two pennants. His World Series title came in 1989.
“To me it was, ‘Let’s try a lot of new things and see what works,’” Alderson said”

Since Alderson was a lawyer for the A’s with no baseball background, the question must be asked of how much of the credit does he actually deserve for those Oakland teams and how much was his underlings instead?

Metsi has raised a valid point that I know for sure that at least I had overlooked. It can’t just be discounted.