12
2012
Now Is Not The Time For Mets Fans To Overreact
An article by 
Remember, it is only Spring Training. It is only March. It isn’t August or September.
Now, what do I mean by that?
It was reported this morning that David Wright had an ultrasound-guided injection of a cortisone shot.
It was also reported that Tim Byrdak will have surgery done on his meniscus.
Byrdak should only be out up to six weeks from what reports are saying, and yet Mets fans are acting like he is out for the season.
As for Wright, he could be playing by next week and he has said emphatically that if this was the regular season, he would be playing.
I like that the Mets are being cautious, and are not forcing people to play injured during Spring Training.
They are taking it step by step with Johan Santana to make sure he doesn’t get re-injured. Fans seem to be too worried that he won’t be at his regular form at all this season, but ignore the tremendous progress he continues to make.
All I am saying is that we shouldn’t be overreacting.
It is only March, and we are in Spring Training. If this was the regular season, and it was like August, then we could worry.
However, we still have a 162-game regular season left to play, as well as the rest of this Spring Training. We should just let it play out, and see how things are for Opening Day, All Star Game, August, etc., before officially tossing in the towel on the season.
The players have plenty of time left to recover from injuries, and to get back to form for this season.
About the Author: Tyler Moore
Tyler is a lifelong Mets fan and tries to attend a few Mets games each season. Among the most notable games he's attended are Mike Piazza's first game in 1998, Todd Pratt's postseason homer game in 1999, and Mike Piazza's last game as a Met in 2005. He's been blogging about the Mets since 2009. He also Co-Created and Co-Hosts the Mets Madness Podcast.
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Agreed.
All I am saying is that we shouldn’t be overreacting”
Thing is, we should. We know we’re not going to be good, but we’ll be even worst if the soso players we have are injured or getting hurt while playing dress up,it’s bad enough as it is.
This team will be at the point to be unwatchable come may imo. which means a lot of EMPTY seats
Thing is, why should we be overreacting when the regular season hasn’t even started yet? Players that are getting injured have plenty of time still to get back and be ready for either the start of the season, or by mid-May. That still leaves plenty of time to work on playing well and putting some wins in the book. Now, I am not too optimistic about this season, but I am not throwing in the towel before the season even starts.
Tyler, i get what you’re saying, and you’re right, my point is we should be because we’re gonna be a bad team this year, and without the so so players we have we’ll be even worst.. so as a fan would you wanna watch this team if they keep losing EVERY NIGHT?? i mean, i love the mets, but even the most optimistic fan will not sit through every night to watch them play..
My point is, how do we know they are going to be losing every night? How do we know that they won’t surprise us and really do well this season? That’s what hope is all about. Hope is believing something is possible, even if it doesn’t seem possible. Instead of just throwing in the towel, let’s hope they do well, and see if they do.
How do we know? no reyes, Mike pelfrey every 5th day, the bullpen if filled with guys who can’t seem to close games out, andres torres is our leadoff hitter, murphy at 2B, dwright STILL hitting 3rd in the lineup.. …
That’s how WE know…
You are only looking at the team on paper, and are not taking into effect that baseball is not played on paper. Baseball on paper and baseball in reality tend to be two different things. Stop looking at the paper negatives and try hoping that the reality is different than the paper.
that’s what those saber people do. Play the game on spreadsheets, instead of watching with their own eyes and accounting for intangibles.
” no reyes”
So, the other 28 teams that don’t have him either should just hang it up?
“Mike pelfrey every 5th day”
Ya, a 4th starter every 5th day. The problem isn’t that we have Pelf. It’s that we don’t have a legit 1/2 guy yet.
“the bullpen if filled with guys who can’t seem to close games out”
We’ll see. If they have a bunch of opportunities to close out games to the point where a legit closer is a concern, I’d say we’re already beating expectations.
” andres torres is our leadoff hitter”
As of now, I suppose. It depends on what Torres we see this year.
” murphy at 2B”
Meh, you make sacrifices wear you can. 2B is the only starting spot we don’t have locked down other than C and CF. He’d cause way more damage at those other 2 spots. If he hits like last year, he’ll mroe than make up for any sloppiness at 2B.
“dwright STILL hitting 3rd in the lineup”
GOOD! Get over you hate boner already.
donal you think this team is so good, i will give you 10 dollars for every win this year and you give me 10 for each lose, payable after 162 games. ok? if not shut up, the mets suck and i am tired of reading how great they are from you. they have more holes then swiss cheese and we have sandy to thank.
Will, he’s one of the worst people in this site, don’t even bother… he’s not man enough to take on that bet anways, don’t waste your time….
Where did I say they were great? Hmmmmm?
I actually said that alex is looking at the wrong things. This team has a lot of issues to deal with, but once again, alex’s biases cloud the issue.
I have a better idea, why don’t you give me $10 for every silly, irrelevant, demonstrably false and just plain dumb comment you make and I’ll give you $10 for every post you make that furthers reasonable discussion? How about it? Want to buy me a new house?
i see your confidence in your savior is all hot air just like his press conferences. you praise his every move daily. funny how he has not had a winning season as Gm the past 6 or 7 but according to your post he never loses.
Just curious but if we are going to go all the way back to when he was a GM to hold his losing seasons against him, shouldn’t we also be giving him credit for his winning seasons as well? Relatively they were about the same time ago.
I see your desire to type something is not hampered by your inability to say anything of substance.
I am so far +$10
Uh huh sure, the Mets suck, but come July, if/when they’re in it, you’ll act like you believed they could do it all along. You are the one who needs to shut it, poser.
Funny but it was the Sandy supporters who decided to shut down the season last year when they were only 7.5 games out! You know the guys who thought Sandy made good moves?
Not the guys who knock Sandy!
that is certainly a legitimate discussion point. And it goes back to the balance a GM has to do between going for it all in the current year, and looking at getting better for the future.
So, every season at the deadline they have to realisticlaly look at the situation (standings, current state of the team including who is injured) and decide what the odds are of the team making the playoffs.
and when the odds are stacked against them (like 5%, need a miracle), if they have the chance to convert an expiring contract that they don’t plan to try and renew into something valuable for the future (a top pitching prospect, or massively needed payroll relief) they take it.
But it goes to something else I said…
Is winning one late in your tenure any better than winning one EARLY?
Yes there is a give and take in any decision.
But is it really better to give up a GOOD CHANCE NOW in favor of a possibility later on when you really have no clue later on that guy your getting is enough to get you back there?
I have no problem with Wheeler himself I’m sure he will be a good pitcher!
The question I have asked is he going to be so good that he will overcome the loss of our leading RBI guy?
And if so is he going to make MORE seasons closer than last year was?
Can anyone guarantee that? If they do how realistic are THEY being?
We had a shot to win something maybe a long shot but it certainly was a more realistic shot than anyone gives us THIS year!
If the GOAL is to make the playoffs then you can’t stop yourself when your close to it in the hopes of POSSIBLY being close again at a later time!
Cause when that later time comes what is going to stop them from giving up on THAT opportunity for the same FUTURE consideration?
Now the trade as it was is not the problem. It did take the wind out of the sails though and unless somone is SURE that future opportunity is going to happen all I see from it is we traded a bird in the hand for a possible two in the future bush!
You know if we had made a decent run for the Playoffs last year we wouldn’t be having ANY discussion of the job Sandy is doing right now!
We might be arguing over who should get a majority of the credit but no one would be talking about Sandy ruining the team right now!
Success is predicated on taking advantage of every opportunity!
Sandy may have weighted the future more heavily in his decisions on last season but it can’t be called the right move or REALISTIC until that future consideration actually happens!
And I don’t think anyone believes this year is the year it happens!
May not be popular opinion but I’ll go on record for liking the dumping of KRod’s contract and trading of Beltran for Wheeler. I saw any shot for post season as hardly likely. Did not want to spend 17.5 MIL for a closer and even though he was one of my favorite Mets, anything we could get for Beltran was a plus. Especially b/c of that no arbitration clause. At best, Beltrans stays until end of 2011. Wheeler hopefully will be a staple in our rotation for years to come.
Now…not signing Reyes is another discussion all together. I was definitely in the camp of wanting him to stay.
But Beltran was gone for 2012 regardless, so at least they have something left behind, instead of the nothing if he had stayed until the end of the year.
So tell me with Wheeler down in AA do you think the post season is more likely now?
If not then please tell me what has Sandy accomplished other than trade an everyday guy who might have got you to the playoffs one year for a guy who can’t possibly guarantee one anytime in the futre every 5th day!
Really Stick? There was a clause that said we couldn’t get ompensation AND we could not resign him as well?
News to me!
Beltran was gone only because Sandy didn’t want him!
didn’t want to pay him!
and what has he done with the money instead of giving it to Beltran?
Hi Donal,
The Mets aren’t the first team to lose a star player – look at what happened with the World Champions a few months back. And we can look to the 2002 Oakland team (leave the money ball and sabermetric arguments to another day) when they lost Giambi and Damon.
The more important issue is the state of the club left behind. I contested the loss of Giambi was not going to hurt the club as many professed because they had such tremendous pitching and enough other good hitters that the amount of runs they produced was over-kill.
Now, to the Mets. Granted the team won’t have the spark-plug leading off and base stealing threat no matter who replaces him in the lineup. In the field they will also lose a bit with the glove withTejada, though he is no slouch himself (and still learning shortstop after being a second baseman).
But if the Mets are going to score the runs we think they might, then yes, the loss of Reyes won’t hurt as much as on the field as it does emotionally. We will have to see how much that spark plug at the top meant to those in the middle.
If the Mets shored up their starting pitching then the loss of Reyes would be felt even less. That is the big tragedy – that the money saved by not re-signing Jose was not used to shore up our starting pitching.
There is a difference between money not spent and money saved. If you are way in the red and you cut loose a costly asset, you’re not really saving money, you’re just burning less.
and, to be honest, I don’t think the SP problems are related to Reyes, other than the length of contract issues. To get a decent #2 starter, you’ll have to invest at least 4 years in a free agent. I don’t think the Mets are able/willing to do that right now.
is that how byrdak injured his knee from dressing up like hulk hogan alex? You should know you know everything else.
Maybe.. Wasn’t he hopping all over the place???
tyler, lots of people threw in the towel before the 2011 finished, and there are plenty already in the ring for 2013. Overreacting is a popular pasttime in most comments sections at this point.
I’ve noticed, I just don’t see the point in throwing in the towel instead of hoping that the team might actually do well.
Hey Stick….your boy just hit a grand slam.
I’m so proud. He is going to have a monster year.
I agree tyler there is no reason that we should be throwing in the towel. There is so much that can happen from now to september. I’m not saying that we will win the division but there is no reason to think that were out of it on march 12 th. Nothing ever positive in minds of mets fans it seems. Sandy will get blamed for it don’t you worry.
What’s up, Big Perm?
Great, now I’ll be referencing that movie all day. I’ll tell my coworkers to direct their ire towards you.
AND YOU KNOW DIS! MAAAAAAAAN!
I regret nothing.
Sandy will get blamed for it don’t you worry”
Well, he IS the GM isn’t he?? wasn’t he the guy who put this team together?? if we win who you think will be portrayed as a genius? who you think will be SHOVED down our throats if the mets can somehow be in contention or make the playoffs? i mean, this was a circa JUST when he was hired, 2 and 3 articles PER DAY it seemed was written about how much of a genius he is and how blessed we were to have him etc… fast forward to now, the man is just out of touch, style and has been outsmarted by EVERY gm in the division and it’s not even close…
‘who you think will be SHOVED down our throats if the mets can somehow be in contention or make the playoffs?’
So you’ll blame SA if the team tanks, but you want to give anyone but him credit if they don’t tank?
I was thinking shoved down our throats applied to the constant daily barrage of trying to turn every post into the anti-Sandy show.
Yeah enough already.
Can’t wait for the season to start.
So it’s ok to praise him but not ok to criticize him for the horrendous job he’s doing as a GM???
You made the statement, Alex – not me.
I asked a question to clarify that’s what you were saying.
You come back and answer a question with a question.
Typical day in MMO land.
Thing is, this is the way it goes. There are fans who either think he is doing a terrible job and criticize him for everything and don’t praise him for anything. Then there are fans that think he can do no wrong at all and praise him for everything and can’t criticize him. Very few criticize and praise him. While he hasn’t done a great job, people should still hope that the team he has put together can win.
Actually you have very few that praise him in general. In fact the ones of us that are “Sandy worshipers that ride him all day long” are mostly just fans who are willing to give the plan time and see where we are in a couple of years. You could count on one hand the amount of times I have said Sandy did a great job.
I am just saying based off what I have seen. I try to take both looks, but often I am with the side that wants to see what will happen instead of just criticizing him. However, sometimes the things he does do warrant criticism.
But that’s my point, at this point very little he does can be said as good or bad until we see how things work out later.
Also, who are all these posters saying he is doing a great job in every post? What 3 of them tops?
Note: This is in response to your other comment that the reply button won’t let me reply to. To be completely honest, off the top of my head I can’t name any names. However I will say I have seen people do it.
I think, no offense Tyler, that what you see is people say that others are doing it and they say it so many times it becomes fact. Example, we have almost 50 comments on this post. How many of them are bashing Sandy and how many of them are saying he is doing a great job?
IMO, there are people here that slam him constantly. But, the “lovers” are a straw man the same group created. They really don’t exist, but the haters claim they do to have something to fight against.
As TRS noted, there are some people that evalaute each move (like some, don’t like others), and the majority that recognize there is a big picture to look at, and are willing to give the FO a couple years to see what ends up happening.
But, there really are no disciples here that I have ever seen.
That’s a good point. I must say though, nothing like a long discussion about the Mets to pass the time. It definitely is interesting getting to see all the different views of people here, and getting to do it all in one post.
SRT, They do exsist. Did you read Craig Lerner’s posts? He claimed last year that last offseason was “remarkable” because the players he signed were cheap and had great ST numbers. And he wrote “Alderson uncovers a gem in Chris Young” after 2 starts – 2 starts! Read this:
“That’s the essence of the new philosophy we have in Flushing now – getting this type of quality player and not having to pay $15-$24 million dollars a season for him.
The Big Three (Alderson, DePodesta, Ricciardi) uncovered a gem in Chris Young – expect plenty more gems in the future.”
http://metsmerizedonline.com/2011/04/alderson-uncovers-a-gem-in-chris-young.html
As we know, Young went on the DL a few weeks after that post was written, and never pitched again that year.
And it’s not just Lerner, there’s a site that changed the name of their after him, and there were posters there that have said they “love” him – Seriously. And posters here did describe some of his moves as “genius”. And we should be “amazed” by his moves.
And yet we have nothing tangible since. It would be like holding the trail of tears against me. Why continue to preach against something that does not exist on this site? You mean 50% of the post on here are talking about comments from last year?
Hi Vinny,
That was most all I heard of from most of my Met friends. I was in a small minority that saw these moves as nothing more than buying reclamation projects and rejects on the cheap to fill roster spots (no doubt you’ve seen the back and forth debate regarding the release of the then not-injured Pedro Martinzez and Takahashi).
I think there was just too much anti-Omar resentment that almost any new general manager would have been hailed as a savior. Omar did overspend for in both terms and money and prospects with his final legacy being the outrageous contracts given to Perez and Castillo (of course, what we don’t know is how many felt the same when the Mets remained contenders but that’s the fair weather in all of us).
I also have a hunch many were connecting the dots and blaming the financial misfortunes of the Mets to that large payroll which is ludicrous taking into account this being the largest market in the country, SNY, the Wilpons out-pricing most of the fan base, the Madoff scandal which dried up the source to payback their accumulated debt and continued source of income along with the real-estate bust that left Sterling Equities floundering. Compared to all this, that $40 million or so that put the payroll over the top was indeed money wasted (and distributed among too few a player) but still, peanuts in the larger scope of things.
So I think a lot of the euphoria Sandy’s received has been at least in part the offshoot of Omar no longer being at the helm.
Again, my own personal feeling is that Sandy’s hands are tied. I certainly hope so for I wouldn’t want to think the decisions made on the major league level the past 16 months have come from being his own person.
Like I said, it does exist. Lerner still writes here and called getting Torres “grand larceny”, and just a few months ago compared Alderson to Franklin Delano Roosevelt and his ideas to Thomas Edison – I mean come on.
And there’s still people who think he can do know wrong. Anytime somebody says something that’s even remotely negative about him, a bunch of people all come out to his defense.
So, yes, this stuff still exists.
FDR and Thomas Edison. Wow. That is over the top. No Patrick Henry or Ben Franklin?
I’d settle for Lee Iacoca but that remains to be seen. The fact is he deserves his fair shot and that means giving him until this time in 2014 because no GM can put his mark on a team showing both progress in the Majors and promise in the farm until he’s been here for 3 years bare minimum.
I was solidly behind Minaya right up until August 2009, even with some decisions that I really disagreed with along the way. I still gave him 4 1/2 years before I’d had it and until I had had it, I never had a single negative comment to make.
Like him or not he has had different challenges than Minaya did in the beginning.
Hi Vinny,
And what upsets me the most is not so much Sandy but how he is being manipulated by supporters of sabremetrics and money ball in putting together the championship clubs in Oakland from 1988 through 1990.
Now, I am NOT AT ALL IMPLYING that Sandy does not deserve all the credit for assembling those teams – he most certainly does. What I am implying is that he used his own “TRADITIONAL” (for lack of a better word) knowledge and skills AND NOT that of either sabremetrics or money ball. He did NOT find “undervalued” talent that suddenly blossomed – the players he obtained those prior years were through good, solid scouting and trades that brought already proven talent to the north of the Bay.
Sandy adopted these “non-traditional” methods around 1995 when suddenly faced with tremendous budget cuts forced upon him by new ownership. That change in philosophy resulted in a string of clubs finishing below .500 with some just barely able to win 70 games. So when money ball and sabremetrics were incorporated into his operation, both failed miserably. That again is not his fault. Just like with the Wilpons, Sandy was given no chips to work with and no computer analysis and accounting formula was going to help him.
So Sandy’s success was NOT thinking outside the box as many contend for the facts dis-spell that complete. Instead, he become a symbol for something he actually had no success with and has been forgotten for the talent and skill that did give him that success.
So let’s be glad we got Sandy as G.M. but recognize the man for what he is and what he is being forced to do. Why he took the job under such conditions I do not know other than his wanting to get back at the helm. If he waited he could have his pick since there have been seven general manager openings the past year.
LOL….how did I get credited for saying something does or does not exist?
I know these responses get drilled down to an almost infinite level, but all I did was ask Alex to clarify a comment he made about shoving something down someone’s throat.
For the record though, I’ve not seen an overwhelming or even majority number of folks who are ‘Sandy worshipers’ as some fans have been dubbed.
I know some immediately thought SA an improvement over the past FO, some were/are reserving judgment – which seems to be the majority, some hated the hiring from the get go.
This site seems to have the most vocal FO bashers and even in that, it’s only a handful of posters saying the same thing over and over.
The rest of us seem to be waiting and watching the plan unfold and are reserving judgment on same.
I kind of agree with some of that. I liked Sandy better when he was just a regular GM, I liked him better when he had a Tony LaRussa as his MGR, Henderson leading off and the Bash Brothers in the middle of the lineup and even a still productive Dave Parker – and don’t forget outstanding glove in Carney Lansford at 2B. He had a great pitching staff too then.
Don’t know why he abandoned his principles for saber & moneyball. I disagree when you say it’s not his fault, it is his fault, it was his decision. I guess he had the choice too of simply trying to compete with whatever budget that was given to him. To bad he changed his philosophy and got worse, problem is he still practices that philosophy and things still turn out terrible. And no i’m not happy he’s the GM
You can’t be happy he’s the GM but at the same time recognize how awful he became when he adapted “out of the box” thinking cuz he still adapts those …as Craig Lerner put it…”tried and true principles”
I think sabermetricks is most usefull in filling out your roster after you’ve developed and brought up Mark Mulder, Tim Hudson, Barry Zito, Miguel Tejada, Eric Chavez and Jason Giambi.
Any bunch of guys you have or can get will be good with that crew but some more informed choices will make you better but without those guys to start out with?
Not going to make a big difference.
Hi Bayonne,
Do you think I was giving Sandy too much the benefit of the doubt about why he went “outside the box”?
I sensed he tried his luck with sabremetrics and money ball since the approaches had never been used before and he had nothing to lose anyway, being there was no money to work with. And his moves with the Mets makes him appear as a man hired to just fill spaces on the major league roster as cheaply as possible. I don’t think he used advanced stats (such as FIP as in the article I attached earlier) for why would he then sign three pitchers coming off serious injury to fill important spots in the rotation and the pen? Why get Hu and Harris who combined didn’t hit much above .370? Certainly, Takahashi and Feliciano’s modest contracts must have been beyond his own box financially.
With what he was told to reduce in spending, those were the only type of players any general manager could have come up with. Again, this wasn’t sabremetrics. This wasn’t money ball, either. This was just no money, period!
Well now you’re going into a different area.
I think he could have done a better job with the money he was given and me and others have fought over that ad nauseum many times before.
I don’t think he did a good job this year OR last year. He’s done a lousy job. Lots of teams got better players at prices the Mets could afford and he’s made a lot of head-scratching moves – as you see debated here every day. In my opinion i don’t think he believed he inherited a team that could contend last year and gave it a half-hearted attempt and I think he did the same thing this off season. The money he wasted on relief, not addressing SP, Catching, strength up the middle – that’s insane. He handled Reyes situation in a classless manner and probably didn’t want him back anyway. Wright was the one to be moved for the right deal and Reyes should’ve been kept.
He’s doing a terrible job even with the resources he’s given. And why so many questionable moves? Maybe saber is causing him to make so many constantly bad decisions in just about 2 years who knows. More than half of his picks can barely hit their weight and have either been cut or out with injuries. So far his best move was Chris Capuano..and even WITH the resources he’s been given that’s not good.
That’s all i’m saying
Hi Bayonne,
Won’t disagree with your assessment of his moves to date except that even Chris Capuano was a bomb. He was backed by the seventh best run scoring for any starter in the league. Had this support just been average (not even as bad as R.A. got) he would have been close to a 20 game loser, not 12-13. In turn, with his era almost two-thirds a run above the league average, with that type of run support anyone who pitched with an ERA just above 4.00 could have been a twenty game winner. And even though he didn’t miss a start, by usually not making past the beginning of the sixth inning, a lot of relief was required thus causing many an arm to be overworked.
Friends of mine has argued that for the little money the Mets had to pay, his signing was a success. My counterpoint is that when one performs that poorly it doesn’t matter what one paid for it’s the result on the field that counts. Maybe it does in terms of money ball and the ledger book but not in terms of wins and losses.
I really can’t say one way or another if there were better role players during the winter of 2010 that Sandy could have signed given the money he had. Based on what he accomplished in Oakland, I don’t think so. And based on what he did with sabremetrics and money ball in Oakland one would think it would teach him such an approach is fruitless. But if he did rely on advanced stats to make those moves with the Mets, and did have a bit more to spend than I assumed, then being one of the icons Sandy set sabremetrics and money ball back a hundred years.
Again, I find more disturbing what many (or at least the more vocal) supporters of Sandy are saying. First it was that he was finding us under-valued talent that was going to make the Mets competitive in 2011 (which he didn’t – the success we had came from players all put together by Omar). Then it was that 2011 was going to be a transition year only and no longer having the costly contracts of Castillo, Perez and eventually KRod and Beltran, the team would go back into the free agent hunt in 2012 and return to full competitiveness. Then two thirds into the season the team was no good and the kids were simply playing over their heads so we had to begin rebuilding from scratch and look toward the future and thus why being five out in the loss column two thirds into the season was not enough reason to retain our star hitter and closer.
As I said, my disagreement is more with those who won’t be objective enough to say that it is too early to really comment on Sandy’s job. I blame the financial restraints more for his moves than anything else. He had to lower the payroll tremendously in 2011 which meant he had to release players and replace them with those less costly. This winter he had the money to mildly mend either part of the bullpen (which he broke apart the year before) or one average starter but not both.
But if I’m wrong and 2011 was more reflective of his baseball know how (again, hard to believe based on his job in Oakland during his “traditional” years) then I’ll go along with you with the onus on him more than those who hired him.
Again, I just don’t know and there are too many variables to make a fair judgement call at this time. I do know that most teams rebuild while trying to remain competitive at the same time. I just don’t know if he has been given that same opportunity or not.
I would rather overreact and be wrong than be complacent and not seem to care they are not going to be a good team!
Or worse Optimistic that some fairy will come tap them on the shoulder and they will win the WS!
You’re talking like these are the only two options – which is not true.
How about realistic but not put the cart before the horse?
This is where I fall. More than likely not a good season but I’ll not write it off until the games are played.
If there was any realism SRT then we wouldn’t have all the excuse making going on that we do!
I love how the Sandy side always tries to paint itself as the PATIENT, willing to give him time when not a single person on the other side has suggested or argued to get rid of him!
All the arguments are with those making excuses and PRAISING him not about should Sandy stay or go!
Tell me something, if we stay the same, Wind up in last place, Lose two MORE games off the record that got Omar fired….Will Sandy have done a GOOD JOB?
How long will it take the “PATIENT REALISTIC BUNCH” to turn that worm on him?
Those of us who think Sandy has not done a good job are judging him based on what he has done SO FAR as Met GM! Just as many Fans Judge Bay for what he has done as a MET LF!
I don’t see anyone making excuses for Bay in the name of being a REALISTIC or TRUE Met Fan do you?
No because they are judging him based on what he has done since he got here, Not what he MIGHT do now that the fences are in, Not make excuses because they are Met fans and Met fans always think the best of every situation!
The Sandy crowd can hide behind this notion they are just being REALISTIC but all their realism is based off some futuristic best case fantasy they deem MIGHT happen!
Until it does it’s more REALISTIC to judge him based on what HAS happened, what moves HAVE been made and he should be judged based on the SAME CRITERIA as was used to fire the guy he replaced!
None of that is happening here!
You want to feel hopeful about the Met Futre feel free!
Just stop chastising the folks who don’t have this rose colored crystal ball the Sandy promoters are using and are judging him based on what HAS happened not what MIGHT happen!
So says you, Metsie.
How about I watch how the season plays out and get back to you on all this?
I don’t have a crystal ball, you know…..
My ‘realism’ in all things NY Mets goes back much farther than the current GM.
Well Srt I have a counter offer…
How about you wait to see how the season plays out before you go and support a GM who most people on the planet AGREE has made us a last place team in the NL East?
You seem to think we are arguing about the job Sandy has done!
NO! We are arguing against those who try to make it out as GOOD despite losing 2 games off the win column!
So let it play out! Stop trying to make what hasn’t happened sound good!
Stop chastising posters who feel things have gotten worse from arguing with those who claim we have gotten BETTER without any evidence to support it!
Up to you dude!
Want to be patient? I’m game!
But I will argue with those who don’t want to wait to see before proclaiming what Sandy has done is GOOD or even GREAT!
‘Stop trying to make what hasn’t happened sound good!’
You’re going to have to point out where I said that. You must have me confused with someone else.
I had no problem with the Mets hiring a new GM. It was time.
I had no problem with who they hired when they hired him.
I’m reserving judgment – which I’ve said time and time again – on what kind of job he’ll do. Can’t intelligently make an informed decision after one season and two off seasons. The grading of the job he does includes the current team and the farm system, IMO.
That’s my stance. Neither a SA hater nor worshiper.
Agreed!
Neither did anyone else who is knocking Sandy right now!
But that doesn’t mean because we had no problem hiring him we have no right to judge him as much as we judged the guy he replaced!
The guy he replaced had a competitive first 4 seasons!
Improved the team for 3 years straight, increased attendance to it’s highest levels ever recorded by the mets and had three competitive septembers for the first time in Met history!
And he STILL got knocked a fired!
What has Sandy done to date to merit a GOOD JOB over that?
to be fair, the last 2 GMs faced very different budget situations when they came on board.
Also, the record attendance a lot to do with being the last year of Shea and locking up tickets for year 1 of Citi also from what I recall reading at the time. Certainly not because of how well 2007 or 2008 finished!
and wait, I thought winning the WS was all that counts. Being competitive in September counts now too?
Oh so we are judging him on his Business accumen now?
What ABOUT THE BASEBALL?
Minaya 8 years after arriving here still can’t be fully judged as a large part of a GM’s legacy is how his prospects pan out so how can you judge the next guy after just 18 months on the job?
You can judge based on each individual move but not in how each move fits into the context of the plan because you don’t know the plan.
Minaya cannot be blamed for bankrupting the Mets financially because he did pay for those contracts with 3 great seasons of attendance (which I was the first to point out by the way) It’s not his fault where those profits were stashed. What Minaya can be blamed for is the cost to the future of obtaining the guys he brought in and the performance of those players on the field.
Horse trading wise Santana and Delgado were wins, Sanchez and Church/Schneider were neutral but unlucky as he deserved better from those. Bannister probably too. Putz a clear loser. Not a bad ratio but slanted in his favor as the salary dump deal inherently favors the buyer by a wide margin.
FA wise we may disagree but Pedro certainly helped immeasurably at the gate and Beltran more than fullfilled his contract. Delgado and Wagner IMO opinion didn’t and Perez, Castillo, Alou and Bay most certainly did not but it is what he could have done with those draft picks that causes the biggest black mark on his resume. His expertise was in player evaluation and he busted on more FA deals than the average teams busts on #1 and #2 picks and he has the talent to be better than average in that area.
That’s the cost we’re paying for right now.
Horse trading wise Santana and Delgado were wins”
FA wise we may disagree but Pedro certainly helped immeasurably at the gate and Beltran more than fullfilled his contract. Delgado and Wagner IMO opinion didn’t”
In the same LONG as* comment you make you first say that Delgado trade was a win, he didn’t pan out to his contract?!?!!? WHAT???
YOU’RE SECOND GUESSING HAS YOU LOSING TRACK OF WHAT YOU WRITE….
My mistake Marlin fan.
Delgado was a win as a trade, he just didn’t get off him soon enough to get something going forward. He did come close. Missed it by a couple years.
Good catch though.
Ye he was fired before they were seen and fans blame him for not having a higher ranking on BA’s list as if thats grounds for being fired!
I still can’t make a real evaluation until you can say for sure that they aren’t working under artificial constraints budget wise. So, hard to say now what is what they want to do, vs. what they had to do.
We are making the assesment of Sandy based on the BASEBALL!
You want to make it about the budget then fine! He has done a HORRIBLE JOB fixing the budget!
We lost 70 Mil last year, cut 55 Mil and ASSUMING we didn’t lose a single ticket sale (UNREALISTIC) he STILL has not fixed the finances!
He will lose 15-20 Mil!
So both from a business and baseball POV he has not done ANYTHING good yet!
Well by that ridiculous assessment if it weren’t for Castillo, Perez, Igarashi, Mathews Jr., and Santana who didn’t do anything and Bay who cost 16 M and didn’t do much that’s 61 M he wasn’t responsible for meaning he shaved the loses down down from 70 M to just 8 M.
Again ridiculous assessment but it wasn’t Alderson who signed any of these deals.
again he uses the past to justify the actions of the present.
We’re saying Sandy is doing a terrible job with the money he has and his terrible off season last winter could have also contributed to that 70 million dollar loss. And another lousy off season this time.
But according to the world of t agee it’s because of the past signings that Alderson’s judgment is bad and is doing a lousy job with his resources now.
Life does not work that way, buddy
No wonder you’re always revisiting the past 100 times a day on this web site ..because of your looney pathological outlook. Are you even a functioning and contributing member of society?
This guy can rationalize ANYTHING! But that’s strength of the internet for you. A phony loser like that’s arguments would be beaten down in 2 minutes in real life
Don’t be stupid. Past decisions often impact present results. Imagine if Phillips had resigned Hampton or Minaya resigned Glavine. Chances are very good we have two different corner infielders in our starting lineup.
Good job with insults though. The internet is good for saying things to people you wouldn’t dare say to their face.
Yep you’re right,
Sandy Alderson is doing a LOUSY job as GM of the Mets so far because of Steve Phillips decision on Hampton & Minaya’s decision on Glavine
What a lunatic. Welcome to the crazy, “rationalize-anything” pathological world of t agee. You have to wonder how this guy arrives at decision in his real life. Better yet, let’s not.
A better idea would be to see how you arrive at decisions in your own life.
Just keep doing the same thing regardless of the way it works out?
Good job in once again turning a baseball discussion into something personal.
Probably your only contact with the outside World.
No wonder so many people find you to be so incredibly repulsive and hysterical.
you’re right, i should keep it on baseball and not let people forget that:
Sandy Alderson is doing a LOUSY job as GM of the Mets so far because of Steve Phillips decision on Hampton & Minaya’s decision on Glavine – according the logic of t agee
go write a 59 paragraph manifesto ok? In real life this clown’s arguments would fall flat so fast he’d be cut off at the 3rd sentence of a 1,587 paragraph manifesto
You could also benefit from some reading comprehension courses and perhaps think about some ideas on re integrating yourself into society but first things first. Learn to understand what is being said or written.
That will help with some of the frustration you obviously have.
That last suggestion by the way came from someone who has observed your “internet persona” over a lengthy period of time and works in the mental health field.
Personally I like reading all of your anti social rants because of all the laughter you have provided through the years.
Anyway just a suggestion, take it or leave it.
“Just keep doing the same thing regardless of the way it works out?”
Yeah because doing what we did and competing in September three years straight is so AWFUL compared to what McIlvane and Alderson has done right?
We were a so much better team when we were out of it in August!
That and I don’t know how you make the leap from what I said about being realistic to ‘rose colored glasses’.
Stop trying to pigeon hole all Met fans into just two camps – By your description the
‘SA lovers’
and
‘the anti SA crowd’.
Most of the Met fans fall somewhere in between.
Agreed, that has always been my problem with this site and my fear as well as that is exactly what brought down the Metsblog comment section.
Being realistic well here is reality!
WE LOST TWO GAMES ON THE WIN COLUMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We lost Three All stars in 6 months time!!!!!!
We are poised to trade yet another!!!!!!
Good Job Sandy?
Thats the realistic POV?
First of all that assumes that the Mets would have played the same or even better if we were in a Pennant race with pressure. Everyone knows how much easier it is for the spoiler vs. the team “in it” Just ask the Marlins.
Second of all, not trading K-Rod and Beltran wouldn’t have prevented Reyes and Murphy from getting hurt nor would it have speeded up Ike’s recovery.
3rd of all, the K-Rod trade was a fait acompli, if it could have been managed back in ST and even to some extent going back further when the deal was originally inked. I mean really 12-15% of the payroll to a closer with as many weak spots as this team had to have projected to have unless ALL the prospects came through as well as you could have hoped?
4th of all, getting something going forward from players you’ve traded numerous prospects for or given up high draft choices to bring in is vital to a teams continuing success. Ike and Wright are very good examples of this. Ventura, Zeile, Cedeno, Weathers, Vaughn, Piazza, Leiter, Floyd, Wagner, Delgado, Castillo, Alou, Putz and undoubtably Bay are not.
You absolutely cannot constantly take away from the farm both prospects and high draft choices and expect not to crash.
Two months of Beltran is not equal to 6-10 years of the chance of having a starting pitcher especially one with the upside of Zach Wheeler. Ask Sabean if he would do that deal again knowing what he knew now.
As has been pointed out here numerous times a GM can and should both build for today and tomorrow at the same time but where was this sentiment the last 15 years? This is the first time I can recall any kind of decision being made where the future took precedence over the present. Even the couple of times it did work out that way were more by accident or pure luck with Hampton and Glavine.
Every decision made around here the last decade and a half is all about today and never about tomorrow and the one time it happens people scream bloody murder.
We will never be able to field a competent starting lineup, in their prime if we continue to get nothing going forward for all the players we’ve traded prospects for and given up 1st, 2nd and 3rd round draft choices to get.
And THAT assumption is a lot more realistic than the ASSUMPTION they will even be close enought to feel the pressure in 3 years!
No it’s really not.
If you spend the next 3 years diligently building up the farm while waiting for these albatross contracts to expire and add to the talent Minaya brought in you should have a very viable team with the ability to add payroll and prospects to trade for upgrades.
Far better assumption than the roll of a weighted pair of die last years Wild Card “run” would have represented.
” not a single person on the other side has suggested or argued to get rid of him!”
Really? You think no one on that “side” has wanted and begged him gone?
Also to your point on when does the worm turn? I have placed my time table for after the 2013 season. Not sure why my point on that would not be viable. It appears all along that he is working for flexibility for the 2013 season so that season will make or break him. Any thing in between now and then IMO is just acquiring that flexibility to be used when the team is in position to use it.
Show the quote TRS! Show the Quote…..
We are not arguing to get rid of Sandy we are arguing with those who wish to make him out tobe doing a GOOD JOB despite the RESULTS being worse than what got Omar Fired!
We lost two more games than the year Omar got canned yet people are trying to say this team is better!
NO! At best the MiLs are better and it all hinges on a guy with 68 Abs and a Pitcher!
That at the expense of three All stars and two wins!
Um…I seem to remember one of you ‘we’ who was leaning towards rooting for the Mets to fail miserably as that would ensure he was on his way out sooner rather than later. Very vividly expressed his contempt.
Yep show the quote because your memory is pretty poor!
Never once said I want the mets to do badly!
Just said that I can’t wait to hear the stories and excuses made for Sandy when they DO!
Wasn’t saying you. Just another of the ‘we’ you referenced.
Shouldn’t be too hard to figure out who.
I don’t have the time to do your work for you… LOL. The burden of proof is on you.
Then you don’t have the time to prove your point do you?
Better get back to class then! Tick Tock Tick Tock!
Again, the burden of proof is on you Metsie… LOL didn’t we have this conversation the other day with the roles reversed?
Not when your trying to quote ME on something I didn’t say!
What’s the difference you were quoting Sandy on something HE did not say.
Yeah TRS…Well I told you pick up any interview with Sandy from November- January to find the quote…You refused!
Your turning into Donal!
I heard you were better than that but your certainly not showing it!
Again, you provide me with the grace of your quote and then I will provide you with one from your buddies. I NEVER said it was you that made the comment, however you did use the word WE like you are some united front or something.
Goodnite Donal!
There certainly is a difference between a player and a GM.
the player is here now, so we judge him on what he is doing on the field. A GM is building for the future also. So you can’t just look at 1 season as a stand alone.
Performance is peformance…
But it doesn’t surprise me that the folks most often arging with me are the ones who have a different STANDARD for every argument which is why they get all pissed when I note those INCONSISTENCIES!
You judge ANYONE based on what they are doing and have done!
Is having 4 good seasons off the bat and then having two bad years worse than having four bad seasons followed by two good ones?
Isn’t goal to have as many good season as possible? Isn’t that the final litmus test?
If Bay has two good years after all of nhis bad ones will he be welcomed back?
There is a reason why GM’s in all sports have a 4-5 year plan, no different when Minaya arrived here. The reason is the team needs a redirection, if not the new hire wouldn’t have been hired in the first place. There wouldn’t have been a need.
The payroll was going to be slashed. That should be clear to everyone. Part of that 1st years payroll was already tied up in players who weren’t going to help in the first season including Santana, Perez, Castillo, Igarashi and Gary Mathews Jr. That’s about 45 M. More was tied up in Bay (16M) and two players who weren’t going to be here when things got turned around in Beltran (18 M) and K-Rod (12 M + 3 M buyout) All told that’s 96 M. More than the Braves entire payroll.
Getting that under control is the first step in the process. Minaya didn’t have that problem when he arrived here. Duquette had cleaned up Phillips folly. Minaya also had the ability to take on financial commitments far higher than Alderson does. 172 M the first year. 100 M the 2nd. Of course he could be expected to show on field results more quickly but the reverse is true as well. While the results were much quicker to appear they were far less possible to sustain so once again we find ourselves after competing for a couple of years crashing right down the mountain again.
We didn’t get into the situation we did in one or two years and we won’t be able to reverse all the damage done over the last 15 years in just one or two off season either.
Funny but i don’t see any patience in seeing Omar’s 5 year plan through…
You know the PLAN that had Murphy, Duda, Davis, Gee, Tejada, Kirk, Harvey, Familia, and Mejia poised to come up right around decision time on Beltran, Reyes and Wright?
You knock him for spending while he acquired all that and rushed him out the door only to credit Sandy with all the good you guys are pinning Sandy’s GOOD use of!
Hey Metsi,
You hit the nail on the head using the word that many supporters of Sandy’s move to justify his actions: “realistic”. The realities simply kept changing as the months progressed.
Now I’m not going to use any of the following examples to put down Sandy or his moves, most of which I disagree with, because I believe anyone who was hired to replace Omar was going to have to adhere to the dictates of the owners, which was to 1) get rid of the expensive players as soon as possible and 2) not to use that savings on other players and only use to the few dollars we’re going to give you.
Simplification on my part, yes, but still quite accurate and something many saw happening from the outset. The Wilpons were broke yet wanted to hang onto the team and make it through lean years so the team was most likely going to suffer during that time.
That was the reality but so many who wanted to see Sandy succeed (which is all of us) either had so much disgust with Omar’s results or believed in money ball and sabremetrics, or all three, that they wouldn’t see things as they were and created their own realities.
It was felt that Mets would be competitive because the new GM knows how to put together a good club via money ball as opposed to Omar who would overpay to get the best players he deemed available to win now regardless of cost, commitment and mortgaging off the minor leagues.
Now all that is valid so there is no issue with that but then this is where reality became distorted.
After obtaining the Youngs, Capuanos, Carascos, Buccholz, etc, the reality was that we got these players because Sandy has an eye and sabremetric mind for un-covering under-valued talent passed over by other clubs due to injuries and off-years and put together a good, solid pitching staff without breaking the bank (money ball).
Then when that didn’t work out, the reality changed to
- The Mets are broke and so the GM understands it’s best to concentrate on the future and dismantle the team now by replacing those who never reached expectations and the aging players and holding down the payroll from getting others.
Yet when the Mets started playing well in May the reality was:
- Sandy has brought a new philosophy to the team, a no-nonsense approach that is showing on the field and it started with the hiring of Terry Collins and the young kids now coming up.
Yet Terry was hired by Omar as a minor league executive and the young talent was all assembled by the former G.M. as well. A month of spring training and a month into the regular season and all the credit went to Sandy for establishing “a new philosophy.” The only credit Sandy deserved was selecting Terry Collins but Terry was already part of the organization and brought in from the outside under Omar.
Then as the team continued playing inspired ball into June and July, the reality was:
- The team wasn’t really that good and playing over it’s heads . The reality of a team doing so well via a new philosophy had changed to a team not going anywhere . With that in mind it did make perfect sense to get rid of our closer (because we could not afford that bonus) and our top hitter (because we could not afford to re-sign him and he was old) and get a top pitching prospect instead.
So what was ignored was he team playing inspired ball was in the thick of the wild card hunt nearly two thirds into the season.
That was a put down of the young players and all that had been accomplished under Terry Collins. Dismissed was the understanding that so many of the young players were building confidence in themselves, gaining experience playing in meaningful games and were building a momentum to carry over this growth into upcoming seasons. All that was deemed unimportant in any “rebuilding” stage.
It also indicates a belief that raw talent always live up to its potential and the success predicted and worth wrecking a season and the psyche of other young players to obtain.
- Then the reality was that Reyes was injury prone and a health risk and we had Tejada to replace him.
Valid points but also must be countered with Reyes being an all-star shortstop and only 28 and that the Mets weren’t going to spend that type of money on him or other players for we’ve seen, the money hasn’t been used on anything other than the coffers.
- And then, there is still the notion that all of this is being done in the name of rebuilding.
Again, the past 16 months have been reflective of a team in serious financial trouble with owners determined to hold onto it beyond its collapse competitively on the field which their financial problems would cause. Rebuilding is just a smokescreen. Competitive teams retain competitive farm systems as the same time.
That is the reality. And the only reality. Sandy does not deserve blame for this but neither do his moves deserve any praise other than having the toughness to take the hits for the Wilpons.
The euphoria that accompanied all his moves were done out of allegiance to philosophy, which is not reality.
I’ll be honest Joey…
Ive seen no evidence to date that the Wilpons forced Sandy to cut Salary!
Wilpon also denied forcing it when he told everyone it was for BASEBALL reasons!
Sandy did not want them!
K-Rod and Beltran I can understand almost…
Reyes I do not!
What was the point of saving money for this “FLEXABILITY” if it didn’t make us flexible enough to keep the batting champ and the best player on the team?
If we can’t KEEP good players with payroll flexability what good is it?
Hi Metsi,
One reason why I conjecture Sandy’s hands are tied is because his actions just don’t seem to fit the pattern of the Wilpons when it comes to the G.M. spending money on the team – even though that spending was at times unwise, short-sighted and just stupid. If money was not the heart of the issue, I don’t see how either Fred or Jeff would allow him to continue, seeing how the club going is down the tubes.
Also remember this trend started during Omar’s tenure. Many were surprised that the only big signing going into 2010 was Jason Bay – nobody of merit but rather players the likes of Matthews, Jacobs, Igarashi, Nieve, Baharras, etc., who more fit the mold of those Sandy has been acquiring – inexpensive.
We must also take into account the total financial disarray of the parent company, Sterling Equities and that a financial consultant had to be hired to get the team back in financial order. Also, the number of low paid employees who were let go, dissolving of the rookie team in Port St. Lucie, having to take out a loan from MLB, a bridge loan from a bank, and a loan from SNY. Couple that with the fact that they got all but one individual to purchase a minority share of the team (I thought more were going to be introduced in February) and thus they used SNY (their own holding) to make up for those other shares.
And lets not forget their friend who made off with a half billion dollars and literally stopped the source of income the Wilpons and Katz (let’s not forget poor Saul in all this) were counting on. And who dictated to whom what the payroll had to be reduced to? Was it Sandy and not his bosses?
Taking all this into account, I can’t see where Sandy was given more financial latitude and still only came up with what he got. If he was, then the Wilpons are even bigger fools to be letting him do it.
No it doesn’t fit the pattern of the Wilpons….
But it does fit the Pattern of Alderson as a GM!
Look at the Salary Structure of Oakland when he took over at GM!
The last team he worked for was San Diego…
Whats their Salary at lately?
People can try and deflect the blame on the problems of the Wilpons but the truth is Sandy doesn’t like paying and never has as a GM!
Even in 1989 which they try so desperatly to give him credit for, he wasn’t the GM then he was VP of baseball!
The Guys supporting Sandy all LOVE not spending! Just look at the past arguments!
They KNOW it isn’t popular here so they put the cuts on the Wilpons so their hero Salary Cutting GM doesn’t get the Knock….thats all!
Sandy has always been a guy who doesnt’t spend! He wasn’t in charge when Oakland spent he was a Minion!
Once he took over as GM thats when all the Moneyballing started in Oakland!
Happened in SD and now it’s happening here!
Because thats what Sandy DOES!
Not what the Wilpons do!
Hi Metsi,
In defense of Sandy, his Oakland Athletic payrolls were higher than about two-thirds of the other major league teams during the championship years between 1988 and 1990. Oakland came back to win the division in 1992. At that time, they had eleven players earning a million or more, with eight of them making above 2.5 million. So during those years he did bring in highly paid players
Oakland tumbled to last place in 1993 and it is at this point when we can begin questioning Sandys insight for a lot of key players from the years before left Oakland in one way or another. But his team was also hampered by injuries.
http://www.realclearsports.com/lists/team_drop_offs/oakland_athletics_1993.html
As I’ve noted, the author agrees that his turn to money ball came upon the death and replacement of owners a few years later, not at that moment.
But yes, than is all now ancient history. Now, as much as you know I don’t agree with what Sandy has done to the Mets on the major league level, I can’t believe the Wilpons would allow him to deal as an account and bring the quality of the team down.
Respectfully, you did not touch upon the financial points regarding the Wilpons which I raised. Are you dismissing them as not being important factors in all this nor that this was tstarting to happen during Omar’s final year of GM? I am curious as to why not, especially in lieu of those points I raised.
Sandy had success before his money ball days and failure during them. He should learn from those experiences unless he us drenched more in preserving a dogma than resolving the situation at hand.
Again, I would be aghast to find that the Wilpons did not put the screws on Sandy to get rid of KRod and Beltran, not to pursue Reyes and to pursue inexpensive reclamation projects and other teams rejects. If they didn’t, I don’t see how they would allow Sandy to continue doing so – after all, they’re the bosses, not him.
These moves don’t make any sense at all for a team with the money to do better.
But Joey…he wasn’t creating the team back then!
He was a VP under someone else running that show!
http://www.baseballamerica.com/execdb/?show=team&fid=oak&year=1983
Note the Guy running baseball operations reported directly to the president not Sandy!
That means baseball moves happened ABOVE Sandy!
He was GM in the businness sense not the GM in the baseball sense!
In 86 he got involved in BASEBALL as the VP of baseball Operations while Riginey remaind directly under the president not Sandy!
It wasn’t until 1991-92 that Sandy actually had no buffer between Haas and him for control of the team. Riginey finally reported to him and that just happens to be when the Salary cutting started!
SO all that 1989 crap attributed to him had very little to do with him!
He was not involved in baseball decisions in any meaningfull way!
Not until 1992 was he the highest ranking person except the owner…
And thats just about when the Salaries started dumping over there!
Metsie — Your view of Sandy is consistent with what the Phillies chain of command. Pat Gillick, who has had so much success in his baseball career, including a World Series championship in 2008, and who has already been inducted into the Hall of Fame, is a Senior Advisor to the Phillies President, Dave Montgomery. Not only is Montgomery the Prez, he’s also the CEO and a General Partner. This means that Gillick influences all the top jobs on the Phillies. Down the totem pole, Gillick is also an advisor to GM Ruben Amaro, Jr. He’s held these posts for years, ever since he decided to leave Philadelphia to live on the west coast. In my view, Gillick’s lines in the Phillies chain of command somewhat diminish the independent success of Ruben Amaro Jr.
Metsi,
Alderson was named the team’s general manager in 1983, a position he held through 1997. Unless I am mistaken, the responsibilities for that position are the same with all sports franchises. Even if the final decision is not a GM’s, call, the deals contemplated are.
While we both share the same feelings about the moves the Mets have made under Sandy, concentrating more on innuendo and not the facts at had doesn’t make our cases sound credible.
That’s why I give Sandy the benefit of the doubt due to his hands being tied by financial restriction and not so much adhering to strict dogma.
Joe
You will get no argument from me regarding the Phillies success being Gillick’s work, Amaro has pretty much just bought around the team Gillick built.
And don’t get me wrong here I’m SURE Sandy got his two cents in the conversations it’s not like they locked him out of the office when baseball was discussed. But there was a clear line drawn in that All the baseball was seperated from Sandy and the baseball and business was split into two camps reporting to the President.
Sandy had no baseball credentials at the time he was a Lawyer! He got that job because his partner at the law firm was related to the owner and came to run the team.
Took his friend with him as he had business degree.
Sandy I believe is even quoted in Moneyball that the reason he started looking at Advanced metrics in the early days of Bill James’ writings was because he had very little ‘Baseball Knowledge” and wanted to have some way of entering the baseball conversations he couldn’t by reading scouting reports since they were a bit of greek to him at the time.
In Amaro’s case he didn’t make final decisions but he was at least part of the baseball operations. He did the work as the boss saw fit and was rewarded with the title after Gillick went back to the west coast. He is probably doing the same things he did before Gillick left only now he doesn’t have to defer to Gillick on decisions but he could still.
Bottomline is you can’t just infer from the title they have how much they are credited and how much they actually do. Titles are meaningless raises of status in lieu of money and is only relevant in regards to what other titles exist and how the work is broken up!
in the case of Sandy’s early GM title he managed the business side in much the same way Harazin did when Cashen was GM. McIlvane reported to Cashen directly then as well, they were both EQUAL to the final decider.Only one carried more weight in regards to baseball than the other.
While the titles may suggest someone is GM it is the titles around that position and who they report to that tells the story of who was actually building the team and who was making the decisions regarding that team!
And I would bet money that despite Amaro’s title as GM, Gillick at any moment of his choosing could remove Amaro of that position if he felt Amaro wasn’t listening to him or doing what Gillick agreed was right!
Which in the end means it’s dubious at best to think any success the Phillies might get in the next couple of years is totally Amaro’s doing.
He may be managing the shop but Gillick probably has a big say in the shots that are called!
Your Mistaken Joey!
They are not the same in every organization!
The titles used are the same because it is given as a status symbol and your status is rated compared to other people in your business but that doesn’t mean everyone with the same title does the same thing!
If you look at the link you see a CLEAR distinction of baeball and not baseball!
There is a guy directly in charge of BASEBALL OPERATIONS and he does not report to the GM but the president!
Look at most other GMs and you will see that distinction isn’t made without a purpose.
Most VPs of operations report to the GM directly but in the case of Oakland pre-1991 the BASEBALL guy didn’t have to give Alderson the time of day as the GM was NOT his boss!
The GM’s Boss was the boss of the baseball operations guy as well and that fact means not a single baseball decision was made by Sandy it was made by his boss who the baseball guy reported to!
Metsi — Well said. I totally agree. We’ll never know what takes place inside a closed door meeting with owners, GM’s and Advisors. I think it’s likely that Gillick blesses every big baseball move that Amaro proposes. Minor stuff, maybe not. Why would they want to change a winning formula?
Hi Metsi,
And thanks for pointing out those distinctions in hierchy not appearing as they are. I was completely unaware of such things.
Could you cue me into what Sandy’s responsibilities actually were as general manager in Oakland during those years were? If he wasn’t responsible for assembling that brillant pitching staff that included in Stewart, Welch, Davis, Eckersly who was?
Any link would be much appreciated – I have friends who always point to Sandys’ success in Oakland (which I have been doing too, obviously) and would like to send them specific details showing Sandy deserved, at most, partial credit if what you imply (forgive me for still questioning) is true and thus his reputation as a general manager in the way the Mets want it is tarnished.
Joe
Des – Even if Gillick doesn’t vette every decision Amaro currently makes I am positive that if the Owner says to Gillick what do you think about Reuben? and Gillick says “No Joy” Amaro is history and Gillick we be the guy who has the most say in who replaces him!
In corprate structure the higher you go the less you do! But the more power you yield!
You may not handle the nuts and bolts, day to day but if you don’t like what is being done you get the biggest say on should the employee stay or go!
Joey – Since I can only infer what he did from the breakdown of assignments and power my guess is the baseball guys decided who to sign and draft and Sandy merely did all the contract and business side (money) paperwork of that the way Harazin did when he worked for Cashen!
Sandy is a BUSINESS guy who learned about the baseball side of it while working for a team where usually a GM is a BASEBALL guy who learns the business side of it as he goes!
The A’s was Sandy first baseball job. He handled the business while others handled the baseball!
When he finally took over both sides is right about the time the salary started getting cut.
Now it may not have been his choice to cut it but lets be clear here it is the only way to manage a team that he has known!
You do what you know! And ctting salary and building cheap teams is what Sandy knows!
Hi Metsi,
What you say could be quite true for Sandy does seem the business man more than the baseball man – at least that is what appears to me, too.
But without actual documentation to confirm your suspicions, it is still just inference and not solid evidence. A good argument, but something my Sandy supportive friends could still counterpoint against.
But remember our discussion about whether it was the Wilpon’s or Sandy’s call regarding gettng players on the cheap? If Sandy is indeed more the bean counter then they would point to him doing exactly what Fred, Jeff and Saul want of him – otherwise, they would have settled upon another candidate like White, Hahn or Byrnes.
Thanks again and I will try to see if I could come up with any documentation that shows Sandy was more the business side than the baseball side during that successful period in Oakland. Won’t lie and say that I do hope I come up with some info but until then, one can only infer he gets credit where credit is not due. Will let you know.
Joe
You won’t find any documentation refuting Sandy’s responsibilities in Oakland Joey. It doesn’t exist. Everyone that’s not agenda driven knows Sandy was the guy calling the personnel shots in Oakland. The quote Sandy made was the reason I had to rely on statistical analysis was becase I had no backround inscouting and player developement.That soundbite was just played in MLB Network a few weeks ago. He never said he had no baseball knowledge. Every team has a chain of command, no news there. That’s just Metsie being Metsie. Eisenhardt was a partner at the same firm as Alderson and was hired by his Father in law who bought the team. 2 years later he brought Alderson over. He’ll go to great lengths to disparage Alderson.
Fonzi,
I was skeptical about what Metsi was implying until I did some research on my own and came up with some very revealing information:
FROM USA TODAY 8/24/10: When Billy Martin was fired in 1982, Alderson took over his duties as general manager with the leanest of baseball resumes. He was 35.
“He didn’t have the baseball background of most GMs,” says Wally Haas Jr., the son of the owner and a vice president for the club at the time. “He got on the ground floor, kicked the dirt and relied on others around him who had more baseball knowledge.”
At the time, he was an outsider in a sport ruled by insiders set in old-school ways.
“The way I began was keeping my mouth shut,” Alderson says. “I tried to be respectful and learn as much as I could.
“At the same time, I wasn’t burdened with a lot of traditional knowledge or experience.”
He used that to his advantage and became a new breed of baseball executive who relied heavily on statistical tendencies and developed a farm system relying on those statistics.
FROM THE NEW YORK TIMES 10/8/10: “Then, when Billy Martin was fired as the team’s general manager in 1982, Alderson took on that role although he was just 35 and had never played baseball in the minor or major leagues.
To compensate for his atypical baseball background, he began studying the sport as if it were a law course. Curious, willing to think outside the box, he inevitably became interested in the works of the baseball statistician Bill James. As a result, he helped lay the groundwork for the use of sophisticated statistics in constructing a team.”
FROM MLB.COM 1/10/11:”… after Alderson undertook much of the sale’s legal work, Eisenhardt offered his new friend a job. And Alderson, with no background in the game — with no motivation, really, save for a modest dislike of the legal world — experienced the second “Why not?” moment of his career.
“It was very serendipitous, I guess,” Alderson said. “I figured it would be fun and I’d try it. I could always be a lawyer.”
He wasn’t sure, though, if he could be a baseball man. Few attorneys existed in the game’s front offices when Alderson stepped into Oakland’s Coliseum for the first time as general manager; teams did not regularly employ one or two as they do today. So Alderson remained an anomaly throughout his early days in the Bay Area — not necessarily shunned or disrespected, but certainly not embraced. For his part, Alderson believed he could be among the first of a new breed. That economists, and not lawyers, eventually began invading baseball’s front offices en masse is a story for another day.
Though Alderson didn’t particularly care how others in baseball perceived him, he did understand his place. He was quiet then, seeking to remain so as he soaked up the intricacies of the game. There was much to learn, much to understand, much to troubleshoot. Alderson was a lawyer — and a young one, at that — in the world of Buzzie Bavasi, in the world of Spec Richardson, in the world of hey-kid-let-me-show-you-how-it’s-done. Navigating such a world could be challenging, if not harrowing. Harvard hadn’t offered a class on Jose Canseco And so Alderson made the requisite mistakes at first, learned from them and won two pennants. His World Series title came in 1989.
“To me it was, ‘Let’s try a lot of new things and see what works,’” Alderson said”
Since Alderson was a lawyer for the A’s with no baseball background, the question must be asked of how much of the credit does he actually deserve for those Oakland teams and how much was his underlings instead?
Metsi has raised a valid point that I know for sure that at least I had overlooked. It can’t just be discounted.
Joy comon…there also isn’t one shred of docmentation or proof that Wilpon made Sandy cut salary either!
In fact there are quotes from Wilpon to the contrary!
So there is much more proof that Sandy wanted the cuts on his own without Wilpon forcing his hand and more evidence that Sandy has NEVER spent a lot in the past than there is for the Wilpons who have ALWAYS spent telling him not to!
yeah Fonzie won’t find any EXCEPT the link I provided which says your full of shit and wrong about Sandy running the show pre1991!
“Joy comon…there also isn’t one shred of docmentation or proof that Wilpon made Sandy cut salary either!
“In fact there are quotes from Wilpon to the contrary!
So there is much more proof that Sandy wanted the cuts on his own without Wilpon forcing his hand and more evidence that Sandy has NEVER spent a lot in the past than there is for the Wilpons who have ALWAYS spent telling him not to!”
Metsi,
I’m not sure how to take that comment. I was indeed saying that you raised a very valid point that could not be dismissed and I provided backup to help prove the point you were making. My only disagreement with you was before all this was brought up and now we might only disagree about the Wilpon role in all this – my own personal thought is that the Wilpons were looking exactly for the type of dollar-conscious individual Sandy was and that the moves he’s making are with their blessings.
Joey no need to take anything from it…
Just pointing out that the Wilpons are on record saying they didn’t tell Sandy to do anything financially and all the moves made were for baseball Reasons.
Were they Lying? Possible not saying it’s not. Just pointing out that Sandy whined all offseason about the need to only have two big salaries, the lack of money, and that it was his desire to not spend a lot so he could by quantity as opposed to quality….
And his past record shows thats pretty mucb what he has always done!
Yes you found some good articles there to illustrate what I was saying!
Sandy didn’t DECIDE baseball moves that led to 1989 and spending. He wasn’t the guy in total charge of baseball until 1991 and 92!
Should he get some credit for it? Of Course he was there but he was not the architect many of his supporters make him out to be!
What he DID create was the Moneyballing teams of the mid 90′s with his push for statistical (easy for a business guy to understand a spreadsheet) approach and Billy Beane to run with it!
They made a cheap competitive team that never got much further than Omar did!
Made a few more playoffs because they were in a weaker division than us and didn’t have a Braves to contend with!
Me and you are square here just pointing out how little evidence there is that the Wilpons had anything to do with the cuts and what exists is assumption based on their own legal issues not any loss of money by them in the past 4 years!
The team lost money and Sandy being a business man has every right to conclude he needs to make cuts to balance the books but we should not pin that decision as a handcuff by the owner or anyone’s idea but Sandy’s own!
His past history and his own words have said so, and the words of the Wilpons also says they had nothing to do with it!
And I’m tired of folks (not you!) trying to make it out to be that way when all the evidence points to the contrary all in the name of saving Sandy from being idicted for his own decisions!
All your link showed was Front office titles and names. Nowhere did it say that the GM had very little to do with building the 89 championship team which is what you said to Joey. Under your assumption John Schuerholz had very little to do with the Braves 15 year run because Stan Kasten was the President and Jon Daniels had very little to do with the Rangers the last 2 year because Jeff Cogen and Nolan Ryan were the teams Presidents and John Hart is the senoir advisor and AJ Preller is the Sr Director of basbeall operations/Player Personnel and Don Welke Sr Director of baseball operations. You may wanna go take a look at every teams front office. Guess What!!! Sandy still has a buffer. His name is Saul Katz. You showed Sandy had a boss. Thanks for sharing.
“What he DID create was the Moneyballing teams of the mid 90′s with his push for statistical (easy for a business guy to understand a spreadsheet) approach and Billy Beane to run with it!
They made a cheap competitive team that never got much further than Omar did!”
Metsi, now thems are fightin’ words. Sandy and Beane did not create moneyball teams that were cheap and competitive – they were cheap and non-competitive (considering their rapid fall in the standings as player personnel changed with a falling payrolls).
Fonzi,
From what I researched and was surprised to find, is that Sandy admits to not having professional baseball knowledge (which is different from having a fan’s knowledge) after completing his legal responsibilities for Oakland. The skill and knowledge in evaluating talent, weighing in trades, putting together a minor league system, etc. is so complex that a non-baseball person can’t simply learn it in a few years – if at all. That just doesn’t make sense.
No, it seems more likely that Sandy delagates those baseball related assignments to others and relies on their judgements like many higher ups in other businesses do. I cannot agree with you on this one. And, as so many have pointed out, in some organizations the role of the general manager is defined in terms of the financial and legality end, not the baseball decision end.
The bottom line again is that nobody outside baseball with no inkling of the game’s internal workings can come in and turn a losing franchise into a championship team.
Thanks Joey D! I have read that before. Sandy got the job because of who he knew rather than what he knew. Saying that he had very little to do with Oaklands championship team is just a complete fallacy though. All teams pattern their front office in a similar way, some just have different titles. A GM is only as good as the people he surrounds himself with and Sandy had good people working with him in those days. Just like Frank Cashen had when he turned the Mets into an NL powerhouse back in the 80′s. Cashens hiring in Baltimore was eerily similar to that of Aldersons in Oakland. He was also a Law School Graduate, was a sprots writer for nearly 2 decades with the Baltimore News, had a Jay Horowitz type role with a few racetracks and then became the VP of Marketing at Hoffbergers Brewery until they bought the Orioles and he became the VP of Baseball Operations, also with no backround in scouting and developement. Harry Daulton was the GM. They had a helluva run. You think Daulton had very little to do with the Championship teams? He only traded for an alltime great and assembled a 4 man 20 win rotation. Then there was the other Robinson,Boog,Blair,Buford,Hendricks, etc…
Also I take whatever a Wilpon says with a grain of salt. Didn’t they say the Madoff Scandal would have zero impact on the Mets. How’s that playing out? Didn’t Jeff Wilpon with Omar sitting next to him in the booth with Mike Francesa say the Mets will do everything possible to filed a competitive team after the 09 season. What they do? Sign Jason bay and not much else. I trust a Wilpon Comment as far as my farts can travel. I’m not saying these decisions are not Sandy’s but I’m not believing for one second that they’re not financially motivated from ownership.
Joey you haven’t researched enough.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050501/news_1s1alderson.html
Walter Haas who was the owner even said it was Sandy. If you’re not going to believe him, then who are you going to believe?
” From what I researched and was surprised to find, is that Sandy admits to not having professional baseball knowledge (which is different from having a fan’s knowledge) after completing his legal responsibilities for Oakland. The skill and knowledge in evaluating talent, weighing in trades, putting together a minor league system, etc. is so complex that a non-baseball person can’t simply learn it in a few years – if at all. That just doesn’t make sense.”
I thought you already knew that Joey. He’s talked about that numerous times. he had zero backround in player scouting and developement, which is why he did things differently. Statistical analysis, he was the first one to rely heavily on statistical analysis and now most teams are.
“No, it seems more likely that Sandy delagates those baseball related assignments to others and relies on their judgements like many higher ups in other businesses do. I cannot agree with you on this one. And, as so many have pointed out, in some organizations the role of the general manager is defined in terms of the financial and legality end, not the baseball decision end.”
All GM’s rely on various baseball people in their organization. Cashen didn’t have any backround either. Do you think he turned on a switch and became a baseball evaluator?. The role of the GM is both financial/legal and baseball. That’s why they have assistants.
“The bottom line again is that nobody outside baseball with no inkling of the game’s internal workings can come in and turn a losing franchise into a championship”.
Yes they can Joey, he did, Frank Cashen did and many more. He just did things differently. Not all GM’s have baseball backrounds and that goes for all sports. Dave Checketts has been a NBA GM and almost got a job as a NHL President. He was interim president for the Rangers although for a short while. Every team has many people involved in the decision making, it all goes throught the GM and even the GM has a boss. This is not news.
Hi Fonzi,
I saw that article and you might have noticed I quoted a lot from it, but kept it to Sandy’s experience.
But if you note that while Sandy was learning money ball (and sabremetrics) the article did not mention when he started putting that into practice. From what I’ve seen all over the web was that he adopted this back in 1995 when the owner passed away and the new ones wanted to cut back drastically.
A good executive does surround himself with the best personnel he or she can. That being said, one who is less hands on in the functioning of the baseball end and relies more on those he or she hired gets more credit for it’s really those working underneath that did all the leg work.
So in that case, the credit for Oakland’s success can go to more Sandy the businessperson than Sandy the baseball person. What we need to know now is what edict Sandy had been given as far a budgetary constraint is concerned, whether or not he is fully using the amount given to him, if he’s making the calls on the player moves mostly on his own or relying on the financial edicts given to others below him for the ultimate player personnel decisions.
Any guess?
Ciao,
Joe
Hey Giuseppe!
You can basically say that about the majority of all sports GM’s. No GM is going from city to city to scout H.S. amd college players, so yeah it’s the people he puts in place that do the groundwork. He had very good evaluators on his staff. One of them being Walt Jocketty.
He was hired in 81 as Oaklands General Counsil, it wasn’t until 83 when he took over the GM duties. 95 was when he was forced to cut payroll by Steve Schott. He started studying analytics before he was the GM, so he started the sabermetric usage well before 95. Like I said, saying he had very little to do with assembling the championship teams from a pure baseball standpoint is purely false. That would be like saying Franks Cashen had very little to do with the 86 Mets. He also had a great staff. Unless you show me evidence that says he had little to do with those teams, I’m not buying it.
Sorry Joey, I didn’t realize you asked me a question.
” What we need to know now is what edict Sandy had been given as far a budgetary constraint is concerned, whether or not he is fully using the amount given to him, if he’s making the calls on the player moves mostly on his own or relying on the financial edicts given to others below him for the ultimate player personnel decisions “.
Any guess?
Ciao,
Joey I don’t think any of us can honestly answer this queston with any certainty. We can all speculate one way or another. We’ve heard 3 or 4 different payroll estimations going back to spring training last year. First we heard the 2012 payroll will be around 120 million, then it was 110 million, then it was 100. It’s about low 90′s right now. Some of the budget has to be used for the draft bonuses. He may have been able to spend more but decided not to or he may have been told by ownership not to. I wish I was a fly on the wall during their meetings.
They did shave off about 50 million from last years payroll, I wouldn’t think that’s all because the GM doesn’t want to spend it. The free agent market really wasn’t all that strong either the last 2 offseasons so who knows. Next offseason there will be some big players on the market unless they resign with their current teams like Matt Kemp. If we don’t sign anybody at all like this year than I’ll start to think it’s Sandy. Unless they get hammered in the Madoff suits, which I have doubts they will. If Matt cain and Vole Hamels ar on the Market and we don’t at least make a strong effort to sign one of them, then I’ll be right with the Sandy bashers.
We know that the business of baseball drives the sport of baseball. It’s been shown time and again. With that in mind, there can be little doubt that the team’s financial managers drove the guys who run the on-field baseball operations. (in very short periods of time this may be reversed, but at the end of anything more than a season or two, finances drive which players any team has and how they are rewarded.)
So to my satisfaction, the Wilpons called the shots, as they should have, and Sandy Alderson, despite any comments he made, operated within the parameters and constraints set by Fred and Saul.
Hi Fonzi,
“Hey Giuseppe!”? Took me a few seconds to realize you were talking to me! LOL
We both agree that when it comes to draft picks it’s the scouts that do the work for it is physically impossible to have it any other way. This might be a call to many to curb their enthusiasm about “Sandy’s” draft picks for they are really more reflective of the organization.
And as far as drafting players, it’s the people chosen by the G.M. who make or break the team. If one relies almost entirely on those people the less credit one should get for BASEBALL instincts compared to ADMINISTRATIVE ones, as opposed to the more baseball astute general who takes more DIRECT RESPONSIBILITY in making the final decision. And it’s too early yet to give Sandy credit for assembling his own type of scouting system for when he came aboard, the scouts under Omar had already spent the prior summer looking at the progress of those coming up for eligibility in 2011. He could not make drastic changes from day one for that would be business suicide. Rather, those changes come slowly. And who knows whom in the organization alerted Sandy to Zach Wheeler – one of Sandy’s eventual chosen people or one left over from the former administration?
The same applies to the general managers you mentioned who had no background in their respective sports and thus goes to prove my point about the general manager of one team having a different job description than the general manager of another. If Sandy went into Oakland with no knowledge, then with the proper business and/or legal credentials, so could you, I and Metsi (Moe, Larry and Curly Nyuk, Nyuk?).
So in essence, there are two extreme types of general managers – those who are involved in the ADMINISTRATIVE end of things and the other who is involved in the COMPETITIVE end of things. The ideal G.M. is one who can do both.
The point to keep in mind is the aspect I am talking about – the one who is really responsible for making a team competitive. From the research available, it appears Sandy is not the type who molds TEAMS as much as he is the type who molds ORGANIZATIONS. In this respect, he deserves credit for being a top BUSINESS EXECUTIVE but not a top BUILDER of teams.
it might also be viewed as an admittance by the Wilpons that they are better off staying away from the day to day operation of the club (since it is losing so much money?) and leaving it up to Sandy. We don’t know. Either way, only time will tell if this strategy results in taking two steps forward after taking that one step back.
Ciao,
Yitskhok (my Yiddish name LOL)
I totally agree Joey and with Des as well. You both pretty much summed it all up. As you guys probably are already aware of, alot of teams now have multiple front office people with prior GM experience.
I only took exception to the incorrect comment from Metsie that Sandy had very little to do with the team that won their 1st 3 pennants and 1 WS title in Oakland. What he did with Oakland does not gaurantee he will do here, It’s like the stock market. Past performance is no indication of future results. Lol.
I didn’t know how to say your name in Yiddish, I’m tongue tied on that one. I assumed you were Paisan when you said Ciao.. Lol… I’ll stick with Joey.D for now.
Keith Law’s take on all things Mets, which is probably closer to reality than most Met fans want to admit:
New York Mets fit that criteria of being a bottom feeder and he doesn’t feel they can contend until 2016:
The good news for Mets fans is that the $43 million rathole known as Santana Bay will close after 2013 with a couple of option buyouts, after which, assuming that David Wright has sailed for non-bankrupt shores, they’ll have no significant long-term commitments.
The bad news, aside from the running farce in the ownership suite is that the new front-office regime’s turnaround hasn’t had enough time to do more than make sure the ship is facing the right direction. There are a few potential stars in the system in right-handers Zack Wheeler and Matt Harvey, both of whom could debut this year if the rotation has room for them, and outfielder Brandon Nimmo, who’s probably a good four years off even if the knee trouble is completely behind him, but those three aren’t enough to be the core of a championship club. And, unfortunately, they don’t have great assets on the major league roster to trade for prospects.
New ownership would help, but otherwise the Mets will have to build through the draft and international markets, which will take several years unless they get an infusion of cash
****************************************************************
Now I can’t predict this far out but considering ownership stays the same, if all things do not break right with prospects, we’re in for some blah years unless revenues somehow turn around.
Hi SRT,
Zach Wheeler being brought up this year if there is an opening in the rotation I think is a little bit premature considering he hasn’t pitched higher than A ball so far. Though he had an ERA a fraction below 4.00 pitching for the California League this past season (much better than the league average) pitchers still need to go beyond A ball to get their feet wet.
2013 might be a more realistic timetable, but that depends on the Mets brain trust (no comments, please “) ).
I agree. The soonest really I expect to see any of those 3 arms is Aug – but more likely the cup of coffee in Sep.
Thats kind of what we have been saying all along here Srt!!!!!
We have improved the Minors slightly but at a huge expense toward the MLB competitivness.
And While those kids may be very promising they will take time to get here, take time to gel and will need vets to guide them once they get here!
By the time Harvey Familia and Wheeler are all in the rotation who is the veteran pitcher to guide them? The Knuckleballing Dickey? Sanatana will be dumped first chance we get, Pelfrey sure ain’t it! Niese hasn’t gelled himself yet and Gee is hardly going to be the man…
WHO is going to tell those guys the best way to attack someone with your fastball?
The problem as I see it is this…
This method CAN work but it takes forever and a day!
Way more than 5 or 6 years!
Omar got fired after two injury plagued seasons despite having three seasons of meaningful Septembers on his record!
How many will Sandy have in the next 6 years and what makes anyone think this tortise is going to last long enough to see it through?
Omar didn’t get to see his rebuild of the team through despite those three great seasons and now Sandy is going to have to rely on THAT omar plan to be a good one in order for his to succeed!
Look at all the guys who give us Hope and they are all the product of the guy we fired!
If thats what is giving everyone hope then why go backwards and rebuild AGAIN?
Why not just retain a Reyes, wait to save the money when Bay and Santana can clear which is right around the time the Harveys Familias and Wheeler are expected to be ready!
Then we are off and running right out of the gate not wasting two or three years hoping the FA needed to make those kids winners comes around!
Especially considering we had them already!
Mark my words…Sandy will be history long before this “LONG TERM” plan ever sees the end of the tunnel!
I think the Omar firing was a bit more than just bad luck with 2 injury plagued seasons, but that’s a discussion for another day. I do know this: rarely do you see a franchise firing and replacing the GM of a successful team.
I don’t see SA as the GM for any 5 or 6 years. I believe he was brought in as part of a deal the Wilpons made with Selig and don’t see him here for the long haul. Once he gets the franchise pointed in the right direction to someone’s satisfaction (Wilpons? MLB?) I see him going back to MLB and a new GM coming in. Who, I have no idea right now.
We will never agree on this but I believe if the Mets were in the black, Reyes would still be here.
As it is, from everything I read it appeared the Mets did outline an offer to his agents but it wasn’t the guaranteed 6 years/100+ MIL the Marlins offered, which was the only concrete offer he appeared to have. And if you can believe Samson, he wanted to play in Miami all along. What’s done is done.
I have no idea if it’ll be 2016 before they compete. That’s 5 years down the road and too much can happen between now and then for any team. However, it’s not looking good for the next couple of years, minimum. Not unless they pull off some miracle and revenues are such that they put the team firmly back in the black column.
Your missing the point Srt….
Omar had three GOOD seasons (you could even say 2005 was pretty good considering if your really interested in making excuses for failure here)
After three GOOD seasons all it took was two bad seasons to cut him loose!
How many will it take to cut a guy with two bad seasons lose if he DOES NOT have those three good season?
If having two bad season is enough to offset three and a half good seasons and make you personna non grata how many does it take when you have NO good seasons on your record?
Sandy will get his three year window and if he isn’t competing by year three he will be as much under fire as Omar was, probably more!
Because Omar actally succeeded those first three years which got him another 3 years!
Sandy isn’t going to have that many good seasons by Year three to carrie him to the next three and he will be gone as fast as you can say Omar Minaya unless year Three shows signs of the team being fixed.
I’m not asking you to believe me on that just note it so when the time comes you know where you heard it first!
Which would put it at the end of 2013 just like I have said.
Actually thats when the firing may happen….
But the press will be on him before this season is out!
Some fans are already there!
If this team is out of it by Augst just watch what the stories will be regarding the Mets and Sandy!
Why do I care when the fans or media start to form their opinions? I unlike some posters do not form my opinion based on the whims of others. Again, for me I see it as a multiyear plan and if I do not see a light at the end of 2013 then I will judge the plan as a failure.
Nope and no one is saying you should!
But if he gets fired as a result of those opinions there is going to be a lot of people stuck with egg on their face for saying Sandy was doing a good job that was so good he got fired!
Maybe not you I can’t say but anyone who thinks things are going well are going to have a pretty hard time making those posts and claiming sanity when we are losing more games than we did with the last guy who got fired!
The reason things didn’t work out for Omar were because of the pitching. Especially starting pitching.
2006 – When Pedro (132, 4.48) and El Duque (116, 4.09) went down, Glavine (198, 3.82), Trachsel (164, 4.97) Maine (90, 3.60) and Perez (36, 6.38) , two holdovers and two throwins (good throwins with upside but throwins non the less) were the last men standing. What made that pitching staff was the bullpen. That pen got the call 4-5 times a game, every single game and did a great job. 3 guys had 70 or more appearances another had 64 and Sanchez/Hernandez combined for over 70. That’s a ton of innings for the pen but they held strong right up till the NLCS.
2007 Maine (191, 3.91) , Perez (177, 3.56) and El Duque (147, 3.72) carried the load till Orlando replaced Pedro on the DL. Glavine (200, 4.45) took a big step backward, Pelfrey (5.57) didn’t step up, Jorge Sosa and Brian Lawrence proved not to be the depth that Maine and Perez had been the year before and the re made pen regressed by about a run and a half per game.
2008 If Pedro (20 starts 5.61) had still been Pedro this would have been as good as it got. Santana (2.53) was a beast and Pelfrey (3.72) had his best year but that was just a mirage. 9 hits, 3 walks 5 K’s per 9 pretty much what we’ve come to expect. Perez 194 IP 4.22 and Maine 140 IP 4.18 both had solid seasons at #3 and #4. RP’s making between 66-86 relief appearances and 33 blown saves and Wagner out for good mid season and the rest of the pen below average to poor.
2009 – Santana 25 mostly great starts and shut down at the end of August with bone chips in the elbow after we were already out of it. Pelfrey 5.10 ERA. Redding taken out of the rotation after a first half ERA over 8. Livan Hernandez DFA’d in August with 23 starts at 5.47. Maine DL’d with “shoulder fatigue” probably from an incomplete rehab after having off season surgery on his shoulder after being rushed back into the rotation in 2008 after being DL’d with a rotator strain. Perez 6.82 ERA, 2 months on the DL with patella tendonitis (jumpers knee) and surgery at the end of August after we were out of it. Niese 5 starts 4.21 ERA strained his hamstring covering 1B and then tore the tendon in early August while Jerry and Rey Ramirez stood next to him as he attempted to see if he could continue. Nieve 7 starts 2.95 ERA tore a quad in mid July and missed the rest of the year. Figgy and Misch combined for 17 mostly decent starts at the end of the year. Five guys made between 68-88 appearances from the pen Feliciano 3.03, K-Rod 3.71, Stokes 3.97, Green 4.52, Parnell 5.30.
If were still in it Johan probably doesn’t get a head start on surgery and rehab, Maine was more a result of carryover from 2008, Niese one of the bizzare things that occurred to the Mets in 2009, Nieve a real on field injury that cost him and the team, Perez probably better he missed 3 months since he pitched even worse in 2010 after surgery, rehab and off season boot camp arranged by Borass and Pelfrey, Redding and Livan healthy all season as was the pen with the exception of Putz who arrived with well documented elbow issues from the year before, he threw 29 innings with a 5.22 ERA. By August 15th we were 10 GB in the WC with 6 teams in between us and Colorado. Without Niese and Nieve’s injuries we could have stayed “in it” longer but it’s hard to see them pitching that much better than Figgy and Misch did.
2010 – 373 IP for Santana and Dickey with sub .300 ERA’s, same Pelfrey 9 hits, 3 BB’s, 5 K’s better results, 3.66 ERA (better catching, defense?) Niese 4.20 ERA in 30 starts, Perez the lone bad starter with 7 at a 6.80 ERA, Misch and Gee especially were tremendous with 11 starts combined, Maine and Nieve were unable to get on track but the pen had a more balanced workload other than Feliciano’s 92 the other 4 main guys were between 41-53 led by K-Rod’s 2.20, Dessens 2.30 and Acosta’s 2.95. Big help having your top 4 starting pitchers all throw between 175-200 innings.
Basically we had starting pitching too close to the beginning or end of their careers and our best seasons were when we got a real shot in the arm from two guys somewhere in the middle of theirs in Perez and Maine. Of all the pitchers we used from 2006-2010 only six of them were developed by the Mets. Pelfrey, Niese, Heilman, Feliciano, Parnell and Joe Smith other than a few token appearances by Stoner, Humber, Kunz ect.
Omars failure was not going all the way and stacking the rotation the way all the other WS winners have…
The Yankees built a core of regulars but that core would have won nothing without all the hired pitching guns they had!
They grew Pettite and then bought aces to go around him!
Pettite wasn’t even the best pitcher on that staff but playing with all those aces sure helped him to become one rather quickly!
Omar should have bought at least one more ACE on the FA market and then 2006 is a WS season, while 2007 and 2008 are probable playoff seasons instead of chokes!
A front line pitcher gets you 15-20 wins and that means 4 or 5 more wins compared to what we had.
That puts us in the playoffs and who knows what happenes after that!
This is why me and you keep arguing about the tactics Omar used!
You blame the tactics but the tactics actually WORKED…It’s failure is the result of not going that extra mile!
All it would have taken was one TRUE ACE more than they had!
He would still be GM if he did!
And the Mets wouldn’t be losing money right now even if 2009 and 2010 play out the same way they did!
That’s true. That’s how the Phillies did it as well. Hamels was the only guy they developed but they had a solid starting 8 with Ruiz, Howard, Utley, Rollins, Victorinno (rule 5) and Werth (non tender) and some bullpen arms in Madson, Kendrick and Bastardo, then they started dealing from the farm for Lidge, Blanton, Lee, Oswalt and Halliday.
That’s the plan we should have (and should) follow. Get the starting 8 squared away with bench and reserves, develop live arms that can at least be good for the pen. Between Familia, Harvey, Mejia and Wheeler we should have two top pitchers combined with Niese that gives us three and go buy 2 more but you have to have the farm to get at least one of them.
Thats fine , My issue with the current plan is they are not doing any of that and instead selling off or letting go the guys who could form that solid 8 in the name of buying a one year ticket to the pen, Ignoring the starting rotation and dismantling the MLB squad to the point where there won’t be enough kids to make up for the losses!
Beltran lets say is a wash…(I don’t thinkwe got enough back but lets for argment say it was a wash)
K-Rod we saved money but it did nothing for the future of this franchise, We can’t even spend any of the money we think we saved!
We let Reyes go (we both agree prob not the best thing) and should all the optimism be correct, shold the kids we have about to come up prove to be contributors, Unless it’s one of those two compensation picks is as good as reyes we will get less benefit from that move and those kids than we might have gotten if Reyes was still here!
Sure reyes missed 30 games yet still wound up 14th on the list of RS, 18th on the list of hits, 1st in the Batting Title, 9th in SBs and led the league in triples!
If he can give you as much if not more than guys who played in more games the solution isn’t to find someone who can play more games than him the solution is to keep him healthy and get him in more games because then he leads the league in ALL of those categories!
Just as if a guy who hit 40 HRs in 81 games is worth keeping compared to a guy who hit 40 HRs in 162!
The games you miss becase of injury are only important if those missed games means less production compared to a player who played more games!
We focus on the stats Reyes COULD have gotten but didn’t if he was healthy with no thought to what we lost on performance for the time he WAS healthy!
And if we had kept that and everything else being said about the future is correct then we would be better off in the long run and closer WITH him than we will now be without him!
With him we had to improve everyone around him and now without him we have to improve the SAME 7 positions PLUS make up for what we lost on the 8th guy we let go!
I’d take 130 out of Reyes and if I get more than that, consider it a blessing. I would have preferred if Randolph, Manuel and Collins had been a little more proactive about it though and just gave him every other Sunday off. That could have prevented some of the longer outages. Not saying for sure but…..
With K-Rod it’s very difficult to trade big contracts and get something for the guy and clearly the deal was to save 14 M in 2012. Yeah we didn’t get that reinvested in the team but the owner’s probably thinking “at least we could get out of it unlike Castillo, Perez and Bay who are still bleeding me dry and no one will take THEM off my hands at any price.
Unfortunately many decisions around here for a long long time have been made for business reasons. I do wish one more had been though. The Wilpon’s telling Alderson the payroll’s 90 M unless you sign Reyes, then it’s 110 M. That’s not an unrealistic scenario at all and would have paid for itself in my opinion.
I know you hate the way the last two off seasons have gone but I’m sure you don’t think Alderson came here to try to make a run for it with Lucas May, Rob Johnson and Craig James do you? I’m sure you won’t answer that honestly but really do you?
Like it or not we have these holes and lack of depth for a reason. A reason that has existed for a very long time. Something that could have been addressed as a big market team could by going overslot with 4-5 picks after the ones you gave away for FA’s and gotten some top young all around high end talent here as well as the Murphy’s, Duda’s, Niese’s ect and then had the time to wait out the lagares’, Flores, Familia and Mejia and Valdespin.
Doing all things to continue what Pedro, Beltran et al started here with Reyes and Wright.
Metsie we didn’t get this bad in just a couple off seasons. it’s been building for a decade and a half. We could continue to shovel **** at it but even in the infintismal chance that we could get one we’d still be back down the toilet in a few years.
The bill for going for it every year has been presented and now it’s time to start paying it off. Hopefully it won’t take that long.
Well tag you could also say the spending was for Business reasons too, But at least that business decision led to better baseball!
The Buying of talent was every bit a play to get people in the stands and it did that…
WHILE it did that it also produced three pretty solid seasons!
I can’t knock that! The other regiemes of which you speak fell even shorter in their buys than Omar did!
2000 the difference of 2001 is having hampton or someone like him to replace him in 2001!
What would buying another ace PLUS hampton done for us?
As for K-Rod the issue isn’t the dump the issue is what we got for the dump did nothing for the future of this ballclub!
It was the perfect deal to package a kid with to get something that would!
Throw Flores in for a top prospect if thats what it takes!
Those are the deals that are worth doing because your trading away two guys, one without a position, one that saves money and get something that might fill a position of need later not two gys who can’t even make the squad after Byrdack went out for injury!
Agree Metsie, The spending even while being for business reasons did produce better baseball, but it also came at a cost and that cost was not infusing the system with the highest tier talent. Perhaps if we had spent less on the 25 we might have spent more on getting 1st, 2nd and 3rd round talent in the 4th, 5th and 6th rounds. Just a couple M more would have still been under the MLB average but could have made a huge difference.
Personally I can’t see why we couldn’t have bought as many guys from FA as we wanted and just gone over slot to recoup the the lost talent. That combined with the 7th – 13th round talent Minaya did produce and some of the IFA’s on the way would have kept the talent flowing.
We just spent all the money on this years roster and I don’t think that was all Omar’s doing. I think there were certain policies in place that inhibited a large draft budget but just about everyone ignored it from NYY to Boston, Texas (while being run by MLB) KC, Pittsburgh, TB ect from 2005 on and while the guys we got to have that success are mostly long gone, those other teams have fully filled minor leagues.
Interesting idea about a prospect like Flores for a better fit (maybe a catcher) Milwaukee had just busted their farm open for Marcum and Greinke but maybe someone else might have had a good fit. Still and all obvious getting out from the option was limiting as to who we could talk to as they A) had to be in contention and B) already have an established closer and C) have a need for a set up guy.
If Minaya had a draft budget to work with I’m sure rounds 3, 4, 5 and 6 could have produced numerous intriguing prospects both to other teams and to help form a competent roster even as early as last year.
One or two dependable arms and a couple of catchers would make this team look a hell of a lot better.
expect the worst, so that you will not be disappointed, and have no where to go but up?
Sounds depressing.
Expect the best so you have no way to go but down?
Sounds FOOLISH!
Hey at least Andres Torres is still clutch. Another RBI today, the man is a machine in the clutch.
?????? Like butch huskey clutch!>?
LOL, it’s a joke Alex. I am just doing a little sarcasm to lighten the mood.
By the way Sticky, your man Duda crushed a Granny!
I heard. Knog will have to eat his words when it turns out that Ceetar’s RBI prediction was on the money.
The big guy is going to have a huge year.
A pleasure to see that not all Mets fans are perched on a ledge. If you think this is bad, then you haven’t been following this team long enough because this is a picnic to some of the dark days I remember.
Agreed, unfortunately.
Tyler welcome to MMO. Though I agree with you on this post over reacting will be a common occurrence around the blogosphere. Just last season after the Mets got of to their horrendous start there were some that already talking about breaking the team up this after only 18 games. Anyways Good Luck with your writing here at MMO.
The reason why anyone would overreact is the fact the Mets are so thin in almost every area: catching, starting rotation, outfield are the worst, but the infield isn’t much better either. If Hairston begins the season on the DL who is the backup RH OF? Vinny Rottino? Who replaces Byrdak as the LOOGY in the bullpen? Robert Carson, Garrett Olson, Chuck James, or CJ Nitkowski? Carson has talent, but is unproven, Olsen has never really established himself, James just recently converted to relief and Nitkowski hasn’t pitched in the Majors in 7 years.
Lack of depth is a definite problem and THAT is what Mets fans should be upset about. For my part, I think Wright will be back soon enough so I’m not panicking about that. But there is a glaring lack of depth that might come back to haunt them, at least in the short haul. That’s all I’m saying.
Depth extremely thin – especially with SP and catching.
Couldn’t agree more.
I agree, lack of depth is a problem. That is something solid to be angry about. However how one expects them to do on paper isn’t because that isn’t necessarily how they will do in reality. Mets do need to add more depth, and I’d prefer that it wouldn’t be a low-rate player, try and get someone good.
It’s just damned hard to get a top tier player as depth, since that implies they will be a bench guy (if not minor leagues).
which is why your real depth is going to have to come out of your minors (prospects). those you control.
If i guy is good enough to start, he will likely be starting someplace, not taking a bench job.
so for Loogy (well, best option is take the 7 best RPs, and make sure you have guys that can handle batters from both sides), you will have 2 options. Guys like james or CJ with little to offer other than throwing with their left hand. Or, a guy like Edgin who actually has good stuff, and the potential to be a “real” player (not just a stiff to fill out the roster).
Same with OF. Most teams don’t have a top guy sitting on the bench as a 4th OF. But, if you have a guy in the minors ready to contribute, then you have something going.
It is the difference between running Pridie out for 300 weak ABs vs. having Duda put up a .900+ OPS for the same 300.
so the depth for CF was really Kirk for example.
No mention of Eric Nissen (2007 3rd rounder) as a potential LOOGY.
He did completely fall apart after his mid season promotion to AA and has been very uninspiring to say the least since we drafted him although Phil Regan must have had an effect on him as he had a pretty good 1st half in St.Lucie.
Haven’t heard a word about him this ST.
When was the last time you heard of an actual competition for a starting job?
Excepting the competition by default types like 2B last year (Castillo, Murphy, Emaus, Hu, Hernandez)
I’m talking more in the line of someone coming in to take an established major Leaguers job and actually doing it. I know teams try to clear the way for some of their up and coming guys more nowadays and get something for the guy who might be beat out but you would really think with as many “holes” as this team has year in and year out someone would have beaten someone else out somewhere along the line.
Maybe that’s just on teams that have competitive minor league systems year in and year out
No more benefit of the doubt.
Sure, give it 2007… 2008… 2009…. 2010… 2011 even… but no more!
Yeah, I’m more worried about the 162 game schedule than I am a month in spring training.
Predicting this team to have (another) miserable season is not overreacting, it’s common sense…with or without these injured players
Predicting that and believing that anything other than that are two different things. Predicting things isn’t overreacting, but people saying the season is over because Reyes is no longer here or Wright is injured or someone else is injured IS overreacting.
They stunk with or without Wright and Reyes…they’ve proved that for the past 3 years. Without Reyes they will stink even more…without Wright, they will probably stink about the same as without him.
**with him
[...] An article by Tyler M. 60 Comments [...]
Now let’s put this situation in perspective.
Test (hypothetical)
Conundrum: How to invest 1,000 dollars in the stock of either the NY Yankees OR the NY Mets?
You have to invest with your mind, not your heart.
At the end of 2012 baseball season you will get back a one dollar dividend for each team win.
(85 wins grosses you 1,085 dollars for example)
Now which team would you put your 1,000 dollars on.
Need I say more?
Lou,
Which only proves the old adage “money can’t buy everything” – especially for a Met fan!
Right on- Yes money can’t buy everthing but for us true blue Met fans, they can rip the heart right out of you.
And I don’t think health insurance will cover either an open-heart surgery or heart transplant due to those causes….