22
2012
MMO Fan Shot: Defending Minaya’s Minor Leagues
An article by 
One of the misconceptions about Omar Minaya’s tenure as GM is that he ignored the minor leagues, and did a bad job of developing players. But the Mets do have a solid group of young players from Minaya. We have quality players in both the majors, and minors from him.
Lucas Duda who was drafted in the 7th round in the 2007 MLB draft, last year did a great job filling in for Carlos Beltran, hitting .304 with 9HR’s and 36 RBI in 181 AB’s. He led all NL Rookies in OBP and SLUG%, and was 3rd in batting average. Duda has tremendous power and could easily hit 30HR’s in a full season. And current Mets GM, Sandy Alderson has compared Duda to Joey Votto and Jason Giambi.
Ike Davis was the Mets 1st round pick in 2008. Davis was having a breakout season last year until he collided with David Wright trying to catch a pop up. Davis was hitting .302 with 7 HR’s and 25 RBI. If you translate that into a full season, that’s 32HR’s and 113 RBI. Davis like Duda, has tremendous power. He’s hit some really long distance HR’s, and I think there’s no doubt he can hit 30+ HR’s in a full season. And not only is he a great power hitter, but he plays gold glove caliber defense at 1st base.
Daniel Murphy was the Mets 13th round pick in 2006. The problem with Murphy has always been his defense, but he’s a great hitter. He’s a career .292 hitter, and last year his average was .320. Before his injury last year, Murphy was top five in the league in hitting and in doubles. Murphy was on fire when the Mets started playing him full time, hitting .338 to the end of the year. Now with the walls being moved in, I can see Murphy hitting 15-20HR’s.
Jon Niese was the Mets 7th round pick in the 2005 MLB draft. Niese is a big lefthander with a nasty curveball. I think Niese has the potential to be a number 2 or 3 starter. Last year, Niese showed flashes where he looked really good; his curveball looked almost unhittable some games. His biggest problem has been his stamina. His career ERA for the month of September is 7.09. He had offseason nose surgery to help with his breathing, so hopefully that will help his stamina. At age 25 I think 2012 will be a breakout year for Niese.
Ruben Tejada was signed by the Mets as an amateur free agent in 2006. Tejada is a solid middle infielder. He plays good defense, he has a good average, and OBP. What’s not to like about this guy? The best part about him is that he’s still only 22 years old, so we likely haven’t seen him at his best yet. Tejada has also added a lot muscle in the offseason, and is much stronger than he was last year, so he should hit for more power than last year.
The Mets selected Dillon Gee in the 21st round of the 2007 draft. Gee started off the season great, going 8-1 with a 3.32 ERA. There was even some talk of him possibly making the all-star team. But the final three months of the year were awful for Gee. His ERA was for the last three months was 5.42. According to Gee, his problems in the 2nd half of last season were because of fatigue. So, if Gee can work on his stamina, the Mets have a solid back of the rotation starter in Dillon Gee.
The Mets also have some good prospects in minors from Minaya like Matt Harvey. Harvey was picked 7th overall in the 2010 draft. He was 13-5 with a 3.32 ERA and 154 K’s in 135 IP in A and AA last year. He was rated 54th best prospect by Baseball America. Harvey’s fastball is usually around 94-96 MPH. We might see Harvey in the majors by the end of the season, and he has the potential to be a number 1 starter.
Other players we have in the minors from Minaya are Jeurys Familia and Jenrry Mejia. Both are hard throwers, and have the potential to be successful big league starters. Familia had a 2.90 ERA with 132 K’s in 124 IP last season in A and AA. Mejia missed most of last year because of TJ surgery, but he’s expected to rebound from the injury, and start pitching in games again in May.
There’s also Kirik Nieuwenhuis, who was hitting .300 in AAA last season, and would have been called up to the majors if he didn’t get injured. One of the Mets outfield prospects, Juan Lagares, hit .350 in A and AA last season. And Darin Gorski, dominated A ball last year going 11-3 with an 2.08 ERA. The Mets also have some high upside pitchers in the low minors with Morris, Tapia, and Urbina.
So, even though many people don’t give Minaya credit for the minor leagues, and developing players, he did leave the Mets with a solid group of young players that have a bright future.
This Fan Shot was submitted by MMO reader, Vinny B. Have something you want to say about the Mets? Share your opinions with over ten-thousand Mets fans who read this site daily. Send your Fan Shot to GetMetsmerized@aol.com. Or ask about being a regular contributor, and share your opinions with an engaging community that loves to debate.
About the Author: Fan Shot
Share your opinions with over 15,000 daily readers on MMO and write your own Fan Shot. If we like what we read, we'll feature you on our front page with the rest of of our great content. Simply email us at GetMetsmerized@aol.com and we'll take care of the rest. Then you can tell your all your friends and family that you were published on Mets Merized Online - the #1 Mets Fan Site on the web!
129 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 24 | 18 | .571 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 20 | .535 | 1.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 23 | .465 | 4.5 |
| Mets | 16 | 24 | .400 | 7.0 |
| Marlins | 11 | 32 | .256 | 13.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
Recent Comments
- Hotstreak: on Mets GM Tells Ike Davis He Has Until End Of Month To Turn Slump Around: Jeseep it does not matter what you...
- Connor O'Brien: on Is Marlon Byrd Finally Coming Around?: Wheeler- Good move by Sandy. He may...
- Russell's Mets: on Murphy Batting Leadoff, But For How Long?: Collins said "we’ve got to get guys...
- Scott Rice's Arm: on Is Collins The Blame For Team’s Poor Performance, Or Is He Just The Patsy?: Patsy? He thinks I'm an every day...
- Charley: on Mets GM Tells Ike Davis He Has Until End Of Month To Turn Slump Around: And what are yours exactly?
MMO Mets Chat
Need Tickets To The Mets Game?
Check Out These Great MLB Links!
Photographs From Gordon Donovan
5358 Fans Follow Us On Twitter!
1269 Fans Like Us On Facebook!
2341 Fans Read Our Feed!
1702 Fans Subscribe via Daily Email!
Minaya had a GREAT eye for talent. But zero skill in contract negotiations.
Minaya did a very good job especially in providing depth in the farm. That’s the first step in rebuilding the barren wasteland the Met system had become.
First rounders in Davis and Harvey appear to be potential cornerstones of the team for years to come. Getting and developing a LHP out of HS is statistically the most difficult pick of all and Minaya got one in Niese.
Getting anything out of 7th-13th round guys like Murphy, Duda, Thole, Parnell, is welcome but lets not forget that some of what they give you on offense, they give back on defense or in Parnell’s case pressure situations. all except Duda were rushed up here, so was the first of Minaya’s first rounders Mike Pelfrey to what extent that has hurt him who can really say. What can be said is that he dominated in his first professional season right up till his promotion to the Majors in July and never has at any level since. Getting a crafty polished pitcher like Gee in the 25th is great. Needs to keep evolving to stay in a good rotation. Gorski has a chance and Morris is I pick I love. Cam Maron, 30th round is a guy to keep an eye on.
1st & supp rnd – (6 college 1 HS) Pelfrey, Vineyard, Kunz, Holt, Havens, Davis Harvey
Havens can hardly be blamed on Minaya. Holt, Kunz? Who’s to say, Kunz was up in his first pro season as well. Nate Vineyard HS LHP threw 35 innings hurt his arm, had surgery, didn’t do his rehab and quit, said he didn’t like baseball. Freak. Seven first rounders/supplemental choices, what appears to be two big hits, one stagnation, one #5 starter and three busts. Statistically this is below average.
2nd rounders – (3 HS, 2 college) Mulvey, Rustich, Moviel, Rodriguez, Matz. Nothing yet although Mulvey’s come back after helping bring Santana (even guys who ultimately bust can help you) Rodriguez will probably get his last shot at A+, Matz has yet to throw a pitch but still has a chance. Looks like 5 busts but 3 still have a chance.
3rd rounders – (6 college) Smith, Clyne Nissen, Kirk, Shields, Forsyth. Smith’s been a very good crossover, good job here. Clyne and Nissen busts to date, Kirk a good chance to be a 6 year starter in CF especially with the fences brought in, Shields always hurt, Forsythe looking like a bullpen catcher but just has two years and as a catcher will get every conceivable chance. looks like two hits. Not bad at all.
4th rounders – (3 college, 2 JC, 1 HS 1 N/A) Pellot, Holdzkom, Lucas, Ratliff, Cecceliani, Vaughn. Very unlucky with Ratliff I think Omar may have had a big hit here. First 3 busted last two have a shot but as college kids they can’t afford another so so or injury plagued year.
5th round – 4 college 1 HS) Butera, Holmes, Lutz, Doyle, Magnifico (DNS) den Dekker. Real mixed bag. Butera’s (Castillo) a barely decent enough backup, Lutz has hit and his D isn’t bad but staying healthy has been a problem. Doyle’s suspended, den Dekker could be Pridie or a GG CFer with pop. I would bet only Den Dekker makes it and how big will determine the success of this round.
6th round – (3 HS, 2 JC, 1 college) Cain, Schafer, leduc, Satin, Buchanan,(DNS) Peavey
Satin can be a good utility guy and RH hitter off the bench, Peavey has a chance. Hard to say, Satin can be useful and if Peavey comes through you couldn’t complain.
The IFA’s are where the buk of the true talent on this team is. Mejia, Familia, Puello, Valdespin, Urbina, Tapia, Flores, Lagares, Gamboa, Tovar, Aderlain, Marte, Cordero, Loads of talent here, translating it will determine Minaya’s legacy. No big time catching prospects and no sure thing bats but plenty of intriguing players and loads of depth. Great job in a long neglected area of interest for the Mets. Tejada is a nicely polished and poised kid who should be a good starter for 6 years. Fern was a great effort, Minaya deserved more than he got. Pena the biggest disappointment.
We have quite a few guys with a good chance, none really stand out too much from the others after the big four but I’d be real surprised not to see 4-5 real good players out of this group after the big four just can’t say which ones.
Keep in mind most teams can say the same thing and many of them have more guys their sure of then we do but in numbers there is strength especially when it comes to prospects in the minors..
Minaya improved the farm quite a bit, how much we won’t know for a long time as most of the true talent in still in A ball. Wish he had a Major league budget to work with.
And here we go……
Of course they produced some players. The bigger issue was not having them back when they were competitive, and not having ones for the right positions.
They also haven’t really had any stuf types come up yet, though there is a chance with Ike (and of course Duda, but I am not unbiased there).
Met Fans should be excited about the farm but they shouldn’t think that we are the only one’s doing any work down there from 2005-2010.
Braves Phillies
Yuniel Escobar Josh Outman
Tommy Hanson Vance Worley
Kris Medlin Kyle Drabek
Jason Heyward Jason Donald
Craig Kimbrall Dominick Brown
Freddie Freeman Travis d’anaurd
Mike Minor Michael Taylor
Matt Lipka Jonathon Singleton
Andrelton Simmons Jesse Biddle
Brandon Drury Anthony Gose
Brandon Beachy Matt Rizzotti
Trevor May
Jason Knapp
Jonathon Pettibone
What the Mets did in that time is much better than the Phillies. I only count one major league starter that you listed for them.
Many of the guys the Phillies drafted were traded for guys like Lidge, Blanton, Lee, Halliday, Oswalt and Pence and are among the best prospects in the minors, just not in the Phillies organization.
Many of the Braves are in the Majors and a few of them have won or come in 2nd in the ROY voting and even won MVP votes and that doesn’t even include guys they signed internationally from 2005-2010 like Delgado, Teheran, Bethancourt or trades they’ve made for prospects like Pastornicky and Vizcaino or prospects they traded like Feliz and Andrus signed in 2005.
that makes the Phillies good traders not good drafters!
And while you point to the amount of picks the braves have they have one playoff appearance in 6 years and had a choke last season that made the 2007 and 2008 chokes look good!
You see this is the chink in you and Jessup’s Kids Only mantra!
Without those veteran championship guys to lead those kids when the pressure is on to teach them HOW to win, they will often fold under the pressure!
Thier best ROY prospect hit .227
They have a lot of good young Pitchers but no Veteran Ace (Hudson hardly fits that role) to lead that young rotation to the promised land!
You need a Mix of Kids and solid Veteran leadership to succeed in the MLB!
And even when Kids manage to get the job done they are usually one and done because they don’t have that veteran leadership to keep them on an even keel and keep them consistent!
Worley is the only starter. All the other guys are prospects or backups. The Mets have Davis, Duda, Niese, Murphy, Pelfrey, Thole, Parnell, and Joe Smith contributing in the majors. I can’t see how you can say the Phillies are better or even close to the Mets because the Mets have a bunch of players playing well in the majors, while the Phillies only have one. Yeah they have some good prospects, but we have some good ones as well.
It’s Sandy’s fault… no it’s Omar’s… NO SANDY, NO OMAR… EFFFFUUUUUU, YOUR MOTHER…. YOU’RE AN IDIOT, I’M GONNA TEAR OFF YOUR HEAD AND CRAP DOWN YOUR THROUT……..JOE PEOPLE ARE BEING MEAN TO US JOEEEEE!!!!
Here I just saved everyone some time and aggravation. Have a pleasant evening and enjoy a beer and the weather (If you are in the North East).
Feels like July. I just got finished mowing the lawn, and am polishing off the beer. Worked up a nice sweat (way too early in the year for mowing or sweating!)
Too hot, too early.
This weather has been so bipolar that I’m worried I’m going to have to bust out my winter jacket at some point in Spring, so I’ll take this weather. I’m a Spring/Summer person because it’s baseball weather anyway lol
It’s always good to see a Mets fan actually see some of the good Omar did when he was here. He wasn’t a perfect GM, then again who is/was??
This.
If someone had that genius GM, we’d see more repeat WS every year.
repeat WS winners
Great Work Vinny!
I’m going to bookmark this because soon there will be a nice little Alderson Avenue conga line trashing all these guys and I want to point back here when they ask for proof when I say they think all these guys Omar got were worthless and horrible!
Maybe having said that they will shy away from what they WANT to say!
I can’t recall anyone here running down prospects simply because they were Omar guys. I do recall some from more recent draftees (Nimmo) though.
There were quite a few occassions when guys like Xtreeme noted how we had no shot at this or that or how bad our MiLs were based on some list of BA’s…
It even came up when we jumped to the middle of the BA list….
The fact that we jumped so high was testament to how bad Omar left our MiLs…
I pointed out that we jumped that high because the truth is there really isn’t a lot of difference between being ranked best in BA or Worst in BA if only two prospects one with 68 ABs of total MiL experience and one Pitcher could raise us that far!
Minaya left us potentially some really good prospects. Duda, Davis, and Niese as far as I am concerned in their brief time up have shown the potential of possibly being something that can be built around. One of Minaya’s failures in my opinion was his failure in the International market. He has yet to have anything to show for it. The closest I guess one can argue is Mejia unless I am overlooking someone.
As I have said often the book on Minaya has yet to be written. Maybe this year or the next we see some of his prospects really make a mark in MLB.
When that happens I’ll be the 1st to say Thank You Minaya.
Yes Omar left us w some prospects but they mostly were in later rounds. Minus Harvey, what happened to the other first rounders? Many were lost as compensation while others (holt) didn’t make it. The best way to evaluate Omar would be to compare who he drafted compared to other organizations over the same time frame. I don’t think he would compare well.
What happened to the other first rounders?
Lets see, Mike Pelfrey has been a major league pitcher for six years now and Ike Davis is our everyday first baseman. Phillip Humber was key piece for Johan Santana. If Reese Havens ever gets himself healthy, he could be our everyday second baseman. We didnt have a first rounder in 2006 and 2009.
Now, it’s time for you to do some research.
Paul DePodesta runs our drafts now. Tell me where his first rounders are?
Scott Elbert, Blake DeWitt, Jutin Orenduf, Luke Hockevar.
Incidentally, the first round draft pick the year before DePo got hired was Chad Billingsley, the first rounder after DePo was fired was Clayton Kershaw.
And do’t forget names like:
Benji Grigsby (easy to forget never made the Bigs)
John Wadsin (in 12 Years never had an ERA below 4.12)
Ariel Prieto (6 Years of Service Lowest ERA 2.45 in 3 games of service. never played more than 22 games in any season and aside from the three game good era his lowest after that was 4.15 This from a guy picked 5th Overall!!)
Eric DuBose (out of the game after 5 years!)
Chris Enochs (never made the Bigs!)
I could have added Denny Wagner to the list but he was a supplemental so I let it slide!
Those were the picks When Sandy was ACTUALLY running the baseball at oakland!
I guess stars like Mark McGwire, Jose Canseco, Jason Giambi, Tim Hudson and Barry Zito, just to name a few, don’t count because they don’t support your little argument, right?
As we have already discussd at great length and thanks to Fozie for showing us the proof time and time again that supports it!
Sandy wasn’t making the picks back then, Rigney and the President Rigney driectly reported to made those picks!
Sandy wasn’t in full control of the team until 1992!
My proof showed he drafted Mark McGwire in 1984. You still have nothing documented that Sandy wasn’t making decisions before 1992. I already showed you the proof that he was making decisions before 1992. To prove my point about how you lie all anybody has to do is read all of your posts. Jocketty and Weincek did the scouting, Rigney had no involvement with the draft.
No it didn’t so stop saying it did because the only one your fooling is yourself!
You keep fooling yourself. You even got schooled in this thread by others. Obviously knowledge is not your game. You just try to give the perception of knowledge.
I don’t really consider Pelfrey (1st rnd #9) to be a success and he was really bad in 2006 and 2007. He shouldn’t have been up here. The best one could say is he’s been durable.
Phillip Humber was drafted the year before Omar became our GM.
Well that’s the thing Mike.
Another part of it is the decision to turn those draft choices into Pedro, Beltran, Wagner, Alou, K-Rod and Bay and how those decisions helped or hurt.
Another piece is the decision to resign, extend or pick up options on guys he could have gotten draft picks out of like Valentin, Delgado, Castillo and Perez.
Another piece would be the draft picks he sold (although I am positive this was above his head) in Wagner and Barajas.
Still another would be nabbing picks from letting guys go like Bradford, Hernandez, Glavine.
What cannot be determined is how the miniscule draft budget altered his approach or even influenced his thinking in going for the “sure” quick fix instead of building a team.
He has had quite a bit of success with one tool, one dimensional types from the 7th-13th round, Gee in the 25th but the more productive talent laden rounds 1-3 could show just a hit ratio of 4/18 (5/18 if you count Pelfrey) which isn’t very good but you have to give him credit on Niese, Duda and Gorski (from the 7th) and their could be a few more and even guys like Murph and Satin as utility PH emergency guys are great to provide for yourself.
High end all around talent is not abundant once you get past the big 4 and Davis but he has done a better job than anyone in quite awhile.
If Phillips had just done a merely poor job he may not have been as under the gun as he was as well.
Yes we all know that Agee.
All 30 MLB teams have made the same decisions good or bad. They weigh the risks and roll the dice. No need to keep rehashing these novellas every time we discuss drafts.
You think you’re the only one who wished we had not traded Wagner to the Bosox? Hindsight is a wonderful thing but it cant change the past.
Try applying some foresight to these threads once in a while. If I recall correctly, you used to be pretty good at it.
Tag lets find out how bad those deals you claim were bad were…
Would you have traded Moises Alou for Wendall Fairley? If not why?
Would you trade Kyle Drabek for Wagner? If not why?
These are the picks you complain about and thats what was taken with those picks your fretting over their loss!
In essence we traded Fairley and Drabek for Wagner and Alou!
And that sounds like a figgin steal if you ask me!
Right, because the Mets would’ve picked the exact same players in those spots.
No dummy
they Picked Wagner and Alou with those picks!
Thats my point!
As far as the first rounders comment, that’s just ignorant. I hate to use this team as an example (because I can’t stand them), but here it goes:
In 2000, the New England Patriots used their first pick (2nd Round) to select Adrian Klemm. In the 3rd Round, J.R. Redmond. In the 4th, Greg Randall. In the 5th, Dave Stachelski. Also in the 5th, Jeff Marriott. With the first of their 6th Round picks, they chose Antwan Harris.
Adrian Klemm played 42 games in 5 seasons in the NFL. But you know what? No Pats fan would EVER say that they had a bad draft in 2000, because in the 6th Round they drafted Tom Brady.
Moral of the story: It doesn’t matter WHEN you get the talent, but IF. If anything, developing the talent that nobody else saw (i.e. Late-round pick) is MORE commendable than drafting poorly in the first round is a bad thing.
I don’t want to have bust after bust in the first round, but most MLB draftees ARE busts. There are 50 rounds a year. That’s 50 players per team per year. If a solid MLB career lasts about 12 years, you’re talking about 600 players PER TEAM being drafted in that time.
If you can get just 1 first rounder every 4 years to have a 12-year Major League career, that leaves 22 roster spots for free agents, non-drafted signees and the other 49 rounds-worth of players to fill. Ike Davis, Matt Harvey and Mike Pelfrey are all first round picks who are possibly/probably going to have 12-year MLB careers (should they avoid injury or other unfortunate event). In 6 seasons, he landed 3 first round picks that are likely to be 12-year Major Leaguers.
That means that, if he were to have held the GM position for 12 years (the length of a solid MLB playing career) and if you project based on the numbers from his 6 years here, 6 members of the 25-man roster would have been first round draft picks. That’s quite good, not bad.
The NFL draft is a completely different animal than the MLB draft, though. Often you see later round picks who excel based solely on their athleticism and being in the right system (and I’m not saying that’s Tom Brady…Brady will be a Hall of Famer and was obviously a huge oversight by NFL scouts). Baseball is much more based on fine motor skills: being able to hit a round ball with a cylindrical bat, for starters. Athleticism doesn’t get you all that far in baseball if you can’t hit the ball or throw strikes. Not to say that there are no successful late round picks in the MLB draft but your best shot at getting quality/star level players typically lies in the 1st three rounds. Anything later in the MLB draft is almost purely a crapshoot.
I agree, and I’m not saying they are the same. MLB rosters are also only 25 players (until September) while NFL rosters are over double that.
What I’m saying is that if you can land a quality player once every 3-4 years in the first round, you’re golden. If you do that infinitely, it means that you’ll have 3-4 players of your 25-man roster as former first round picks at all times. Add to that a couple of players like David Wright (2nd Round) and players who were never in the MLB Draft (like Jose Reyes was), a few later-round picks (like Lucas Duda, Dillon Gee and Daniel Murphy) and some free agents or players acquired by trade and that’s how you can build a solid team. You don’t need all of your talent in the first round, you just don’t want to go 0′fer. Minaya batted .500 on first round picks. That’s pretty dadgum good.
But your ability/chances to land a good player in the first round is also proportional to the winnigness of the team you have!
it’s much harder to pick a winner with the 30th pick because you were a playoff team than it is if you sucked and picked in the top 5!
If your a good evaluator it’s possible to do because there are plenty of great players in the 2nd round who will be just as good as guys taken in the first.
The bottomline though is the more MLB players you get in the draft on the whole, the better your chances of getting an all star and the better your chances of trading for one when you need one!
Everyone talks about trading prospects as if that is the only thing you can trade!
But many trades are contigent on getting a decent MLB talent as well as some prospect and if you don’t have a lot of young cheap MLB players to throw into those deals no trade can happen!
When you look back at the best trades this team has made most have been made with guys at the time were not great players just really good ones!
As I stated elsewhere, Hubie Brooks was not the great hitter he was destined to become, He was a solid guy with MLB experience that was a majority part of the carter trade!
Neil Allen isn’t going down the annals of baseball history and a great closer but he was a solid MLB player that made getting Hernandez possible!
None of the guys we traded to get Staub were anything special but they did have some MLB experience!
Mazilli is hardly a Hall guy (but he was an all star) which may disqualify him as an example here but still not much more than a solid player who got you something good!
It’s nice when you can draft Hall candidates and All stars!
But most teams don’t get their that way and fewer get them in the first round!
A lot may get picked in the first (truth is the average is about 5 at most in good years and 3 on average) but few if any actually show it until after they were traded for something else by the team that picked them!
That’s a fair point as well. All I’m saying is that it’s not about WHEN you draft talent, but IF. If only 6-7 players that Minaya drafted had any kind of impact on the MLB team at any point (even as a stop-gap starter for 1 season), then that’s bad. But if he did draft a few potentially-big contributors and some others got some decent time with the Mets, then it can’t be bad. If draft picks like Davis, Duda, Harvey, Niese, Pelfrey, Murphy, and Tejada are all currently contributing to the Mets (or, in Pelfrey’s case, have given a few years of ML time to the team), how did he fail?
I really don’t get the Omar vs. Sandy ideology: they’re both important because of the team they work(ed) for, the New York Mets. Omar Minaya had his qualities and his successes, he also had his failures. Same goes for Sandy Alderson. Why is that so tough?
The biggest fail you can make in the draft is take a kid that does not ever warrant promotion to the MLB.
The next biggest is take a kid who gets promoted and is working at McDonalds after two years!
After that you have the Pass levels. You get an MLB player who can stay for three or four years you did your job!
If you get an All Star out of it your probably very lucky or better than the average GM
And if you find a hall guy out of it thats a big feather but more than likely as with the all star you just got really lucky!
And if the All Star or Hall guy was taken in the top 10 you actually get less points for taking him as far as I’m concerned because you really had it pretty easy with that pick of the litter! You losing horribly is just as much responsble for getting him as your scouting was!
But the bottomline for me is, if you get a high number of MLB players your pretty damn good, or did a fine job. Get something much better than that is just gravy and probably has a lot of luck involved!
The Sandy vs Omar thing is less about Sandy and Omar and everything to do with Spending NOT Spending!
If you look at the participants the same guys who are for Sandy are the same guys who months ago were crowing about how great the A’s were when they started Moneyball!
A lot of the Saber rattlers are also on that side because again Moneyball used Sabers intensly and they want that done here! I don’t care about using the Sabers but I have yet to see any sabermetric acquisitions to date!
The other side (which I am a part of) doesn’t like the idea of being the pirates and the A’s and selling off anyone you have that is good to get the two or three in the bush 4 years from now!
Thats fine once and awhile but if it doesn’t stop at some point your always another 4 years away! It has never stopped with the A’s and the Pirates and the A’s just had another firesale this year!
Omar is being brought into it because he spent money and thats the worst evil thing you can do according to those who don’t want to spend!
And if SPENDING is the evil then Omar must be evil incarnate! Since spending is the evil Omar MUST have wrecked this team! Hardly true but thats the impression they want to get accross!
Moneyball is a drastic measure especially in a place like NY….
So those in favor have to scare us about how bad things are financially, in the Minors, etc…
To justify a drastic method being implemented.
So Omar gets blamed for our problems, spending gets blamed for the problems and Sandy is held up as the cure all with the really bad medicine they say Omar now forced upon us!
And now there is blowback as people are sick of hearing how bad a guy with three competitive seasons and a half a team of starters in the MLB in 2012 really is just to make Sandy’s horrible tasting medicine seem like it’s good for us and needed!
Truth is if we had signed reyes, we would have one of the best IFs in the game of baseball, for the next 6 years, and a solid pinch hitter and backup (Murphy) for Davis, Wright and Tejada (Who would be at 2B) the only other thing we needed was a good solid starting pitcher which if we believe the hype Harvey and Familia may just be by next year!
THEN we could have gone after some bullpen help this (2012) offseason to save the games all those guys could be getting the lead for us in…
Thats just my view of where we could be in 2013 if we had not decided Omar was so awful we needed bad medicine to fix things and spending money to invest in the future was the worst thing a baseball team can do!
because it isn’t!
The worst thing you can do is dismantle a team with some promise of a check that never makes it to the mail!
Which I feel we did when we let Reyes go and then turned around and sold Pagan (.270) for Torres and a 7th or 8th inning BP arm!
We were NOT as bad off as some people made us out to be all in the name of forcing their medicine down our throats!
Metsie, I read through your entire response (made longer because it was inset so far because it was a response to a response of a response to a response). I’m not on “Team Sandy”, “Team Omar” or “Team Edward” (or whatever the other one is). I look at it from the perspective that the name attached to the position means nothing, that what we do now and what we did 5 years ago and 10 years ago are linked. The Mets traded Scott Kazmir for Victor Zambrano, the Mets signed Luis Castillo, Oliver Perez and Jason Bay’s contracts, and the Mets let Jose Reyes go because they were not willing to match (or beat) Miami’s offer.
And here’s where that gets me: I’m glad that we aren’t giving out ludicrous high-dollar contracts to players that don’t seem to deserve them any longer. Bay was a signing I was fine with at the time, it just hasn’t worked out (obviously); Castillo and Perez, on the other hand, not at the price they got. As much as I like(d) Jose, that dollar amount was insane for a player who is hurt as often as he has been. In Fantasy Baseball, I’d never cut Jose Reyes. But in Major League Baseball, while I’m ticked off that he’s gone, I’d rather see the money spent elsewhere if I’m being honest.
I would like for the Mets to be big spenders and land big-time free agents because that makes the offseason fun. I don’t hate Omar or Sandy and I’ve agreed and disagreed with things that each of them have done. I would love for Reyes to still be in the orange and blue (and I agree that our infield would be one of the best in the bigs with Ike, Jose, DW5 and Tejada when all are healthy). I would love to have signed Papelbon (or another high-end closer). I don’t think trading Pagan away was the end of the world, though I wouldn’t have minded keeping him.
The reality is, I was fine with the way Omar was trying to build a team through free agency and the guys who were already on their way up, and I’m fine with the way Sandy is trying to build a team by picking up guys who will assist us in the future (hopefully).
One of the best performances by a GM in baseball (IMHO) was that of Dave Dembrowski in 1997/1998 with the Florida Marlins. Dembrowski had to dump every player from the 1997 World Champion Marlins to get the team’s salary WAY down. He traded away Kevin Brown, Gary Sheffield, Jeff Conine, Bobby Bonilla, Charles Johnson, Al Leiter, Moises Alou, Mike Piazza, etc etc etc and HAD to make the trades. But in doing so, he managed to build a TREMENDOUS farm system, which directly led to the Marlins’ 2003 championship.
I’m not comparing Sandy Alderson to 1997/1998 Dave Dembrowski by ANY means. All I’m saying is that, sometimes, the performance of a GM cannot be judged until years later (much like a Draft Class). Omar Minaya found some great young talent for the Mets and won an NL East title and came within a game of a Playoff appearance after that. He didn’t have a bad tenure by any means. Just because Alderson is doing things differently doesn’t mean he’s not doing just as good of a job (or better or worse). Only time will tell.
Just for the record, I wasn’t suggesting you were in a camp with that post….
I don’t want the GM to sign stupid contracts, but truth is the only REAL stupid contract Omar gave was Perez and Bay! We all talk about Castillo but Castillo only made 8 Mil per year, not a big contract really.
Bay was a desperation move…Perez was at the time the only option we had, was it a bad contract? sure!
All the thoer contracts were good ones!
That said, I have no problems if our GM decides not to sign the top FA available every year jst as long as he doesn’t go to the other extreme (which is what I see happening here) and just buy one year guys off the scrap heap. Selling or letting go GOOD player worth the salary they are going to get in order to make money to buy those scrap heap guys who in the end don’t help us win, don’t make us a better team because they can’t make up what was lost to get the money to buy them, and are do not do anything for the long term stability of the team!
This started when others like me questioned some of these moves made and those who ARE sandy guys took great offense that we dare criticize the master…
And this is what led us to Omar vs Sandy!
I know you weren’t suggesting I was in one camp or another…I was more stating that as a “for the record” and for others.
It’s a shame that Omar vs Sandy is where a chunk of the fanbase seems to be. I understand that the Castillo deal was just $8M/year, but that’s still approx. 8% of the team’s total salary and is the difference between, say, Jason Bay and Mark Teixiera.
Big picture, though, Minaya did a good job as the GM of the Mets: he made some splashes in free agency, he acquired some key components of the future of the Mets, and he didn’t have TOO many bad & big contracts given out (Bay/Castillo/Perez is still better than many of the bums Cashman has signed for the Yanks).
But you also have to look at Alderson’s work and say that he’s done 2 of the 3 things that Omar did well already: he’s acquired some key components of the future of the Mets and he didn’t have TOO many bad & big contracts given out. The free agency work is still something we haven’t seen really, but, overall, I still think that he’s done a solid job as GM.
If you could combine the two (“Sandy Minaya” or “Omar Alderson”), and use some of Alderson’s ability to acquire future talent with Minaya’s, and then let Alderson help keep Minaya in check a touch on signing players to new contracts, then you’d have a spectacular GM! Someone get Dr. Frankenstein on the phone!
Well while I disagree in principle that Sandy has acquired some key components of the future (basically he got Wheeler and thats about it in two years, anyone could have drafted Nimmo last year,and I don’t give a GM credit merely for taking his assigned draft pick)
I do think your last paragraph is pure gold though!
I would replace Sandy with “Build From Within” and Omar with “Spending” since those really are just personifications assigned to the two fighting philisophical sides.
Despite the fact Omar wasn’t all spending and Sandy hasn’t really built from within (hasn’t really had ythe time to) except for the kids Omar brought here…
Balance is always the key, Philosophy is great to ponder when you have nothing to do but when there is work to be done Phiosophy is a poor pragmatist, inflexible in most cases and easily taken by surprise because the thinking had not prepared for opportunities that were not expected by that philosophy!
As they say in the Military, you can set your doctrine and make your plans and they are all worthless after the first shot is fired. If you stubbornly stick to you plan despite events that would invite a change you will lose the battle!
Balance is key in all things, Be prepared to do what you want to do but you must also be prepared to abandon the plan when opportunities arrive that don’t fit your original plan.
As for my feelings on Sandy I don’t actually feel he is building from within but he has said he wants to. Other than Wheeler and his normal draft picks I have yet to see him add anymore future contributors to this team than any other GM in the MLB.
Most of this vitriol started when one poster tried to claim Sandy has done a great job…I say it’s premature to judge him truly at this point. These kids he is getting have to succeed before anyone can say YES he got future contributors!
Now this year he gets two comp picks for Reyes to add to Wheeler on the list.
He may get great kids and may bust out as bad as anyione thinks Omar did…
We will see and when we do will be the time to say he did a great job or he needs to go!
For my tastes I would like to see more balance from Sandy on the spending.
Spend on the players who have done a good job, Don’t spend on crap! Don’t just trade your best players hoping to get more draft lottery tickets, start trading some of these MiLer who have no place to play on the MLB team for players who WILL fill a hole in a tear or two because they already have two years of MiL under their belt!
Outstanding job as usual Vinny,
Like I said before the only thing stopping the “bridge” connecting 2008 to today were the classic injuries of 2009-2010, then of course add in the off the field chaos and Omar is gone and rightly so.
But if not for those injury riddled years Omar might still be here today with his youth “Bridging” 2008 to present. In other words Omar would have achieved what many people think is some new, innovative idea that was invented by the alleged geniuses running the Mets now.
And that is remaining competitive year after year with a healthy farm ready to step in.
If not for the injuries Omar would have already achieved that and be here today.
Well done Vinny!
Omar has infused some nice looking players down on the farm and a few on the major league club with allstar potential, Ike, Duda and Niese. There’s quite a few servicable players which we haven’t been able to say in a while. The jury is however still out as far as providing any impact players. The potential is there, but right now it’s still untapped potential. Not being allowed to go overslot except for maybe 2 picks, Erik Goeddel being one, really has been one of the biggest reasons why we haven’t developed too many impact players in a long while. Reyes, Wright and Alfonzo. Hopefully we get 3 or 4 to come out of Omars work. The potential is there.
Great job Vinny on a very well researched and written post. Hopefully it wont get smeared by you know who as is usually the case with these fanposts now. I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you that it doesnt happen. And I’ll keep my fingers crossed that in 4 years we’ll have similar success from the DePo drafts. With his penchant for high schoolers it will be years and years before we know anything.
Solid piece, Vinny.
I don’t see any debate to be had here – Omar was a good scout and pulled off some nice work in the draft.
There are also some players who the book isn’t closed on yet like Josh Satin, Zach Lutz… Den Dekker and Cory Vaughn?
Even Parnell looks a little stronger this spring.
Because of this, however, the book on Minaya won’t be closed for a while and his name will pop up quite often. I personally do not see this as a bad thing because I thought he did better than most people do.
This isn’t a knock on anyone because I understand the current situation, but years from now when I look back, Minaya years will be memorable ones in my short tenure of watching baseball. Hopefully, in a few years, I’ll see even more success to be able to look back on.
And as Iave tried to point out on many occassions…We also have those three seasons of competitive baseball that gave us a FULL season of excitement!
There isn’t another team other than the 86ers who has done that in all of Met History!
Who knows in 20 years we could be pining for the days we had when Minaya was here!
Tagee Jr might write about all the wasted chances we had and how letting Reyes go set the organization back 10 years! LOL
LMAO. Good one Metsie.
The biggest problem with the Minaya drafts is lack of star level, high upside talent. Omar’s first draft was 2005 and he has yet to produce a star. That doesn’t mean that he won’t (a lot of this is still unwritten, with guys like Davis, Harvey, Niese, Familia, Duda and a few others still improving) but way too often, you saw them go with the “safe, low upside college guy” over the “higher risk, higher reward” types. Here’s a little secret when it comes to prospects: there’s no such thing as a “safe” pick. Every pick has risk and that risk is that the player doesn’t become a big leaguer. So instead of picking the Eddie Kunz’s and the Kevin Mulvey’s of the world, you’re probably better off going for the Nimmo’s and Fulmer’s and Evans’. The floor is the same (not a major leaguer) but the ceiling, if you hit, is much, much higher. Unfortunately, the Minaya regime didn’t seem to realize that until too late in the game. The 2010 draft was much better in that regard. The 06 and 07 drafts were nearly complete disasters.
“The biggest problem with the Minaya drafts is lack of star level, high upside talent. Omar’s first draft was 2005 and he has yet to produce a star. That doesn’t mean that he won’t (a lot of this is still unwritten, with guys like Davis, Harvey, Niese, Familia, Duda and a few others still improving)”
On this I agree with you Who.
Yup and there’s nothing wrong with the Dillon Gee types who come out of nowhere and surprise you and can competently throw innings at the back of the rotation. The big issue is when Dillon Gee is the best (or second best, in this case) player that you took in a certain draft. The mediocre Gee types should be seen as the icing, as opposed to the cake. The cake should be developing a star or above average player(s) from the draft.
Yeah I mean the guy had 6 drafts under his belt, it takes the average draft pick 3-4 years to even make the MLB and 3-4 years to be recognized as a Superstar talent makes it quite a bit premature to say he didn’t get any!
Murphy was in the top 5 of the batting title last year before he went down.
Duda and Davis hit homeruns almost as far as Strawberry did!
Niese’s career and numbers have mirrored quite closely to what Halladay did his first 4 years at Niese’s age and Harvey, Familia, Mejia, Kirk and Havens are about a year away from full time MLB status!
Omar could have 9 Superstars to his resume before all is said and done…
And even if only HALF of them do 4 or 5 is pretty damn impressive as well!
He could, but it’s unlikely he will. He’d basically have to hit on every single high upside prospect that he brought into the system and that happens just about never.
Josh Stinson, Tobi Stoner, Daniel Murphy, Joe Smith, and Kevin Mulvey were all from the ’06 draft. Lutz, Duda, Carson, and Gee were from the 07′ disaster.
If Stinson, Murphy, Duda, Gee, and Carson turn out alright, which looks to be the case so far, you can’t say they were disasters.
Now – on the point of not producing a star yet, fair enough, you are correct. I understand where you’re coming from.
I am confused about something though – are you really championing Nimmo off as a high risk high ceiling pick? What’s so drastically different about him? From what I hear, i’m nowhere near impressed and I don’t expect anything special from him. I personally really disliked the Nimmo pick – although I did like Fulmer, Pill, and Muno.
I also think you’re slightly off on the floor thing. Obviously, the absolute floor for any pick is not making the majors, but as much as we all hope every single draft pick can be stars, reality sets in and we realize that drafting a solid set of serviceable major leaguers is good enough to get by with – with or without a huge star (even though I feel Davis will be that guy.)
Let’s face it…Murphy and Joe Smith are the only productive big leaguers from the ’06 draft, while Duda and Gee are from ’07. I do think highly of Carson and Lutz, but guys like Mulvey, Stoner and Stinson are really reaching if you ask me. Stoner is unlikely to ever pitch in the big leagues again, Mulvey probably only does if armageddon hits some team and Stinson just seems like an unspectacular middle reliever at best. That’s just not a great outcome for a draft. Maybe a disaster is over the top but from two drafts, you’ve gotten two flawed regulars (Duda & Murphy), a #5 starter and potentially a LOOGY and a good third baseman, if Lutz can ever stay on the field. I think you hope for a little more in a draft.
Now with Nimmo, I’m pretty sure he’s the definition of high risk/high reward. He’s a HS pick, which makes him risky enough and then on top of that, because he’s from Wyoming, he just doesn’t have the game experience that a player from a warm weather state would have. However, his upside is likely well above average regular if he pans out, with names like Paul O’Neill for instance tossed out there. And O’Neill, while not a superstar, was a very solid regular for 17 years in the majors. I was a fan of the pick…I think it’s definitely bold but the kid seems like he’s got the will and the tools to make it. Hopefully everything breaks right but he’s a very impressive guy and from everything I’ve seen and read, he’s incredibly polished for a guy from a cold weather state.
I think that’s a fine middle point. I can’t make a case for those drafts being spectacular, and yes, I do desire more from my drafts, however they were far from a disaster. A disaster to me is zero players from that draft coming anywhere close to the major leagues and horrible scouting, or something along those lines.
Duda and Murphy still have time to improve, since they’ll both be major league starters this season for a full season. Mulvey and Stoner are reaches, likely, but I wouldn’t be so quick to put down Carson…at least not yet.
On the topic of Nimmo, I hear the comparisons often. I think, at best, he’ll pan out to be a .280/20/80 guy with 15 steals and good defense. At best. So that doesn’t seem like HIGH reward. Will it be bad? Not at all, I’d take that from from my corner OF any day, with the exception of a few all-stars. High risk, indeed, however, because high school picks are all pretty high risk. I don’t hate the pick, I just…dislike it and was a little confused on the thinking behind it.
The thing with Nimmo is that since he’s so young, it’s really hard to gauge how much power he’ll ultimately develop down the road. He’s a tall guy and he’s skinny as a rail, so he’s got plenty of room to build muscle and develop pop. While some projections say 20 homer power, I doubt that’s in stone at age 18 and it might very well be a conservative ranking. Not to mention that a right fielder who could hit .280-.300 with a high OBP, lots of doubles, 20ish homers and solid defense is a very valuable property. Even more so if he could manage to stick in CF and play it competently for a few years.
I’m a little hesitant to buy in yet, but as the years go by, I can only hope he succeeds because he is now a member of the Mets organization.
I’m still a bit reluctant to put him among the top prospects in our organization, although there’s a good chance he will probably pan out to be better than most. I don’t foresee him being a star at all – but that doesn’t mean he cannot be a successful major leaguer.
I like the idea of the Nimmo pick more than the actual pick itself. I was hoping for Swihart and perhaps Hedges in the supplemental, although Fulmer seems like a very worthwhile choice, but I didn’t realize this was a comparison.
The ’07 draft was an unmitigated disaster in my opinion. Zippo from the first 7 picks over 5 rounds including 4 that we cashed our 2006 bullpen in for and the best pick of all was tossed away for 100 games over two years of a 40 year old OFer. Another bust. That’s the first 8.
Now Duda and Gee are terrific for where they were drafted and maybe Lutz will shine too, we’ll see but the idea of drafting college relievers with 4 of our top 6 picks (supp, 2nd, and two 3rd’s) and busting on them all is hideous and part of the reason half our lineup is comprised of first basemen.
As for ’06 if you want to credit Mulvey (another bust) with helping to bring Santana then you have to credit Smith for helping obtain Putz. Big help there. Murphy can hit, I’ve like him since the first time I saw him but he’s been dicked around and development IS part of the deal. Stinson will get his shot but I’m not sure most draft recaps would be pointing to his 13 innings as a success but he’s beaten the odds so far and I’m rooting for him to keep doing so. Not sure what Stoner’s 11 Major league innings have to do with this discussion other than the condition the farm was in when Omar got here.
Real shame in my opinion that so many top draft choices went for college relief pitchers who are available without compensation on a year by year basis and 4 out 5 busted and the one that didn’t was traded for an injured reliever while starting pitcher, 2B, RF, CF and LF go unaddressed.
Excellent points. I said almost the same thing.
I guess I still don’t totally get why we keep acting as if Minaya is the one making draft picks? It’s almost like we use selective decision making. The Director of Amateur Scouting is the one making most of the picks you describe here. Does Omar have more to do with a guy like Harvey than a guy like Murph? Absolutely. A 1st rounder is something a GM will stick around for and use his own judgment and have input in who to take. But a 7th rounder etc? Barely.
Here’s my problem with bragging about Omar’s minor leaguers and even Sandy’s. Nothing has happened yet. Nothing.
We can brag all we want about Duda, or even Ike but the fact remains that they haven’t really proven anything as a big leaguer yet. We like them, and we expect a lot but that doesn’t mean we are better off having them than 2 other young guys from another system.
We still see the Mets ranked in the lower half of minor league systems, why is that? Conspiracy against the Mets?
Your minor leagues are deeper (or supposed to be) than a few players here and there. The idea is to have a constant cycle of talent coming through the pipeline. Like it or not, the Yankees do that. The Braves, do that. Why is that? The Yankees can AFFORD to give up a Montero for Pineda because they have at least 2 other young C’s in the pipeline.
If the Mets had Montero he’d be their best prospect in 10 years possibly.
So I’m not saying this to knock Omar or applaud Sandy. I like to wait and see with minor leaguers. It seems people are still living in the past and trying anything to make Omar look better than he was, and not for an appreciation of Omar but in a backhanded slap to Sandy.
At some point you guys are gonna have to move on from 2009 and realize it’s 2012.
Oh we are back to this again?
Director of Amateur scouting is in charge of who this team takes in the draft?
Where were you when Sandy was getting credit for drafting McGwire for keeping quiet?
Where was the attempt to make the guys under the FO level get credit then!
It’s all bull Jessup!
They read the names the front office tells them to read when it comes time tomake the pick!
They have input yes! They compile the scouting reports the FO Baseball people look at and compare to decide…
But thats it!
You see Vinny? I told you he’d defecate on this. It’s why MMO went from a fan site with a dozen fanposts a week, to a garden variety Mets blog with zero fanposts now.
And Maniac
Notice how he chooses THIS post to finally address constant looking back at the past here
“At some point you guys are gonna have to move on from 2009 and realize it’s 2012″
This guy is such a BS artist it makes me puke. He’s as phony as a 3 dollar bill and as slimy as a slug after a rainstorm.
There is one individual that runs rampant on this site daily spewing his dishonest and manipulative version of what the past should’ve been like – and he does it every single day and it’s well noted by everyone on this site and you all know who i’m referring to.
Yet this guy picks this post to say stop looking back at the past and focus on the present.
He only has a hard-on for anyone who tries to write a post for MMO that gives the slightest of praise to Omar. He’s just a DB that way. Agee writes stuff like this everyday, but that’s okay because they have a thing for each other so this phony wont ever call him out on it. Or is ts because he’s a ________. I just feel bad for Vinny who never insults anyone and stays on topic.
See the difference between you small handful of people and the rest of society is that normal people don’t mind reading a thought from another person.
Nothing I said was insulting or offensive, I gave my opinion. I stated FACTS that the Dir of Amateur Scouting is more responsible for late round picks and stated I am tired of talking about the past and looking toward the future. How dare I!?
Yet you come here and you say things like
“He only has a hard-on for anyone who tries to write a post for MMO that gives the slightest of praise to Omar. He’s just a DB that way”
“He and his buddies definitly are reasons why I haven’t bothered to contribute recently!”
“This guy is such a BS artist it makes me puke. He’s as phony as a 3 dollar bill and as slimy as a slug after a rainstorm”
” I told you he’d defecate on this. It’s why MMO went from a fan site with a dozen fanposts a week, to a garden variety Mets blog with zero fanposts now.”
And then stomp your feet and complain about the site and say there is something wrong with MMO because of what *I* said? Please. If you want to know what is wrong with this site it’s that people like you 3 cannot read an opinion without turning into a 7 year old who is searching for the next “your mama” comeback.
If you took a poll of 100 readers on this site and asked them if you guys are the problem or I am the problem, I’d bet any amount of money that people would vote you off the island.
No you stated some BULL about the Driector of scouting and tried to pull it off as fact!
But it isn’t!
They run the draft….Their BOSS runs them!
Tells them what to DO in that draft! Thats what bosses are for!
Jonah Keri who followed the Tampa Bay Rays and wrote the book “The Extra 2%” about their organization.
Me: A draft pick in rounds lets say 4 and beyond, ranging from 0-100 how much involvement would u say the GM has on that pick?
Reply: “Depends on the team, but generally very little input”
I’ll go with the guy who actually watched GM’s and Director of Amateur Scouting rather than Metsie who sits on his couch and thinks he knows how an MLB front office operates.
Depeds on the team he said didn’t he?
What year did this book come out? Yesterday?
Or when they were playing .377 and .407 baseball?
Published on March 8, 2011. Wrong again.
Yeah he said depends and he ALSO said generally very little input. That’s all you need to know to prove that you have no clue how the front office works.
So it’s not the RULE you made it out to be is it?
And Generally very little is still SOME now isn’t it?
So BOTH those statements back up what I said more than what you are trying to say!
The GM has his say it isn’t just the Dir doing whatever the hell he wants he has to run it by the GM first and tell him what he plans to do INCASE the GM wants him to do something he hadn’t considered on his own!
He and his buddies definitly are reasons why I haven’t bothered to contribute recently!
They are the worst offenders of what they complain about and have all these stories they seem to have planned ahead on some other site so they all have their story together when they perpetrate them here!
Metsie March 22, 2012 at 9:15 pm .
He and his buddies definitly are reasons why I haven’t bothered to contribute recently!
If that’s the case why is almost every single thread dominated with your posts? Be honest, tell the truth, stop the insults and you won’t get into flame wars with different people every day.
Metsie: Your response would have been better had you just said “My name is Metsie and I do not know what the Director of Amateur Scouting does.”
Woulda saved time. “They read the names the front office tells them to read when it comes time tomake the pick!” I mean you have to be kidding.
Here you go, an actual Director of Amateur Scouting and not a guy on a Mets site acting like he’s smarter than everybody:
“I have an opportunity to contribute to that. If you are passionate about scouting, which I am, there is no better way to contribute to a team’s sustainable success than being tasked with leading the Draft.” – Cardinals Director of Amateur Scouting Dan Kantrovitz
MLB.com: The Cardinals have a bounty of Draft picks next spring. Philosophically, how do you approach that? Does it allow for any extra risks?
Kantrovitz: The way we look at it is, there is a risk/reward profile associated with every player at every point in the Draft. If you take on more risk, then the player should have a higher upside, or ceiling, if everything works out. Philosophically, I would not be averse to taking on additional risk if our scouts present a compelling argument as to why a particular player has a realistic chance of reaching that higher upside. But just because we have quite a few early picks this year doesn’t mean each pick shouldn’t be as well-founded as if we just had one.
MLB.com: If it’s possible to sum up in a few sentences, what general philosophies and strategies underline your view of drafting amateur players?
Kantrovitz: From a scouting standpoint, we will focus on players with a high ceiling who have a chance to make an impact in the Major Leagues. For a position player, that might be an athletic, “toolsy” player with good baseball instincts. For a pitcher, that might be a guy with a loose arm, natural delivery, command of the strike zone and some movement on his fastball. At the end of the day, we will line up the Draft board based on our projection of a player’s potential future contribution.
—– Yeah sounds like he just reads names the GM tells him to read huh? Give me a break
Just because you wanna praise Minaya, a guy you despised when he was with the Mets doesn’t mean you’re right
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/rays/2011-06-02-draft-12-picks_N.htm
The task of picking the right players falls to the scouting staff, which is led by R.J. Harrison, the director of amateur scouting for the club since 2006. Over that period, the Rays have had tremendous success in the draft, but not just because they had high picks such as Evan Longoria (third overall, 2006) and David Price (first overall, 2007), but with a pitcher like Matt Moore (eighth round, 2007), who has the look of a future ace, and Desmond Jennings (10th round, 2006), who has developed to the brink of becoming a starting big-league outfielder.
Harrison is not going to heap pressure on his staff. They understand what’s at stake. Surviving with the draft is nothing new to them.
“As a scout you see this as a great opportunity,” Harrison says. “I don’t consider it pressure; it’s what we’re supposed to do. Certainly we talked about the significance of this. They get it; they know it’s an opportunity we may not get again. It’s a perfect storm.”
Harrison says the Rays, whose initial 12 picks don’t start until No. 24, are devoting plenty of time on prospects who are rated between the top of the draft and the second round. “It is guys we think have a good chance of being in the mix at No. 24 and then those next 10 picks through the rest of the first day,” he said.
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2011/09/16/pirates-make-front-office-promotions/
“Joe DelliCarri has been promoted from Assistant Scouting Director to Director of Amateur Scouting. In his new role, DelliCarri will lead the Amateur Scouting Department and run the First-Year Player Draft”
— Yep more guys who just read names for the GM
Yep because the GM tells them who he likies from their list and they just do his bidding!
Tell us all when was the last time you did something your boss didn’t approve of first and how fast did you get fired?
Metsie, you don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re refusing to acknowledge you could possibly be wrong because you’re stubborn. You’re wrong.
The odds are in my favor that when Daniel Murphy was drafted, Omar Minaya probably didn’t know much of anything about him.
His job isn’t to scout amateur players, and write reports. The Dir of Amateur Scouting has an entire staff of scouts who submit reports on players to him. He may advise the GM to go see some potential high picks (mostly due to signability) but if you think Omar Minaya is reading thousands of scouting reports and film and finding Daniel Murphy to draft, you have no idea what an MLB front office is.
Yeah I’m refusing to acknowledge I could be wrong here because I know how corporations work!
And no GM on the planet is going to send some lowly director to a draft and say “Surprise me!”
There are plenty of meetings WITH that director and everyone who is involved in baseball decisions gets their say and in the end regardless if the Dir of scouting says I think this guy is the best if his GM and the rest of the front office said get player A and he is there they get Player A!
Those meeting create a draft ranking just as ALL drafts that are professional are done.
It’s not like the fantasy leagues your used to where there are 5 guys and you can off the top of your head pick a name any name because your likely to get an allstar!
The Dir of Scouting takes the resulting list and works from that on draft day.
He does not decide WHO to get that was decided long before he got there!
The only thing he has to do is cross off the guys on his list who were taken and then take the next best guy remaining on his list when his name is called!
And if you think it runs differently then all I can say is you really should go to some of those meetings before the draft happens to see what REALLY happens not just what was attributed in some newspaper!
Got it. So in every high school in America there are scouts traveling to see players, plus players in colleges. And it is your thought that the Dir of Amateur Scouting goes to Meetings to discuss with the GM what the GM thinks of all of those players.
So Omar Minaya said “what about this kid Murphy” not because his Dir. of Amateur Scouting liked him first, but because Minaya read the report and saw the tapes and TOLD the scouting director to put him on the list.
Got it. You have a warped sense of what the GM does.
I’m done for the night, if interviews from actual Director of Ammy Scouting do not count, and guys who wrote books about Scouting and Drafting do not count then you only wanna hear what you want to hear. If you’d like I can get a friend of mine who is a scout for Toronto in the midwest to call you directly so you can call him a liar too?
And your under the assertion that the GM says to the Dir…”We Need Pitching”
and the Dir says Screw you I’m taking an Outfielder because I’m in charge!
Whose assertion is the most rediculous of the two?
If I’m your boss and ask you for a list of shipping companies I might ask what your opinion is but in the end I tell you which one I approve of OR I then say ok use your best judgement but only AFTER I have vetted your opinion before you go do it!
I know this was just an example you were using Jessep but the Mets were put onto Murphy by Tony Bernazard’s son who played on the same college baseball team.
BTW we’re all aware that the scouts and scouting directors make the calls on almost all the picks. The GM hires the director and I would imagine has input in the first few rounds but after that but he doesn’t actually scout the amateurs…….After all the draft is the sole focus of the entire Amateur Scouting Dept.
Way to ignore facts. You and your buddies are what’s wrong with this site.
And that was directed at Metsie, of course. You and the rest of your crew just close your ears all the time and talk in circles about nonsense.
I’m not ignoring facts…just you!
You’re really awful at comebacks. You should just give up. Your lack of knowledge and understanding of basic principles continues to get ripped apart around here. It’s astounding that you’re able to function in real life.
yeahwe re going to submit your retort to the Blog Posting Hall of fame it was just THAT good!
ROFLMAO!
Jessep you so full of it and such a phony. You might be able to fool your cronies, but nor me.
You wrote this:
It seems people are still living in the past and trying anything to make Omar look better than he was, and not for an appreciation of Omar but in a backhanded slap to Sandy
You wrote that to insult Vinny and I warned him you would.
You’re an instigator and always have been. You earn the crap we give you because you reap them with underhanded insults you cleverly try to cloak in your comments.
Is there a reason those of us who like reading the posts and comment section here have to be subjected to the disgusting name calling I’m seeing?
You only say that when I’m involved but when it’s anybody else who you happen to agree calls name nary a word from you. Only me you attack.
You’re a two-faced phony!
I’ve seen plenty of alleged “name-calling” by people here recently and really most of it not an issue. But you only speak up when it’s me.
I’m really getting sick and tired of your two-faced phoniness.
That’s all i’m going to say on this matter because I don’t want to take away from Vinny B’s wonderful post. And I’m not going to respond to any subsequent responses on this matter if there are any.
Sigh……
Good research Vinny. Despite Metsie’s blatant and absurd lies, I’ve always praised Omar’s ability to scout and draft. What I was always critical of was his business acumen and part of that was using draft picks as commodities. Like the draft picks he gave up for Alou, Bay, etc. or selling them off for $5 million like with Wagner. Imagine what he could have done with all those first or supplemental round picks!
The lack of top-shelf prospects also hurts, but I think that’s a direct result of giving up all those top choices. It’s the reason why there are corner infielders and outfielders and lack of defense up and down the minors.
The daily criticizing the Alou signing of 5 years ago and the draft picks given up is tiring, cumbersome, and just a plain old SECOND GUESS because you are only coming to this conclusion after knowing the results years later.
I think it’s time to STOP with looking back 5 years ago and second guessing the Alou signing now.
I posted this a few days ago and I guess it bears repeating:
Here are the MetsMerized writers AT THE TIME giving their review of Moises Alou in 2007 and nobody regretting having him on the team AT THE TIME:
Left Field (Moises Alou & Endy Chavez)
Ryan P. – Moises Alou came to the Mets to be the offensive juggernaut that we once was. He had a good April, got injured, then returned in freakin’ July. Well, if he didn’t get injured, he would’ve helped the Mets to a number of victories over that span. Let’s examine his numbers shall we? Alou hit .349, 13 home runs, 49 runs, and had a 30-game hitting streak. Amazing. I won’t be surprised if we bring him back next year. Endy Chavez, another man lost to injuries early. He was effective in the beginning of the season before going down in mid-June. It seems like whenever he gets hits, he gets hits in bundles. Good stuff for Endy.
Grade: B+
Joe D. – Moises Alou was one of the best hitters on the team when he was healthy. He proved that he could still swing a potent bat and led the team in hitting with an impressive .345 batting average. His on-base percentage of .392 was second only to David Wright. He exhibited great patience at the plate and walked as many times as he struck out, while providing many key hits during the season. Defensively Alou held his own and he dispelled the notion that he was a liability. When Alou landed on the DL, Endy Chavez stepped it to play everyday, but soon fell to an injury and landed on the DL himself. Initially he wielded a hot bat, but lost some steam when he finally returned to the lineup. He ended the season with a solid .287 batting average 1n 150 at-bats. Overall, because of the injuries, the production did take a big hit.
Grade: B-
Andrew V. – The ever revolving d
oor. Moises Alou is a hitter, there is no doubt about that. When he is healthy, which is rare, the man is one of the best hitters I’ve seen. Setting the Mets record for consecutive hits is pretty special. Obviously his field work is lacking a bit, but he always comes up with some plays I never think he can make. The occasional diving grab from Alou is alway fun to see. Endy Chavez and Carlos Gomez also factor into play here. Unfortunately we lost Endy for most of the year with his hamstring injury. I love Endy and his “scrappiness” and ability coming off the bench. Gomez played well before going down with a hand injury, it was nice to get him reps up in the big show for the future of this team. Alou back in left will be excellent next year, with Endy and/or Gomez coming in for defensive replacements late.
Grade: B+
Jon C. – Moises Alou was unstoppable in September, but had he been healthy in June and July, he might’ve put the Mets in a position where they really distanced themselves in the standings. It didn’t happen. He was hurt and it’s clear his best days are ahead of him. Carlos Gomez, who scares me everytime he swings a bat (so hard, easy son easy), looks like a stud outfielder in limited playing time we’ve seen him, but my gut tells me he’s a better right fielder. As for Endy, no happy Endy this year. I’m all for him coming back next year. Bottomline: Alou can’t cover the outfield the way Gomez can. His injuries ultimately hurt the team more than he tried to help them in his historical September so I say… platoon Alou and Gomez in left next year. Alou could be a solid parttime player at his age.
Grade: B-
Brian M. – When on the field Moises Alou produced with the likes of the top players in the game hitting .341/.392/.524 for 2007. At age 41 Moises showed an unhearlded ability to dominate when healthy hitting .349 in April and .403 in September. However, at age 41 Moises showed a realistic physical ability in the fact that he was hurt, for most of May, June, and July. I would give him an A+ if we were grading on when he played but his substitutes were also injured and slowed down the production in his abscense. Endy Chavez hit .287 and Carlos Gomez .232. So in total…
Grade: B-
Shawn L. – Man, do I wish we had Endy and Moises all year. If they play the way they did all year, its possible that Endy could be up for a gold glove and Moises for either an MVP or batting title (I know, Farfetch’d). Bottomline is as much as I (Like many others) criticized the signing of Moises Alou, and I would like to apologize to Omar Minaya. At the beginning of the year, I would have preferred to have Endy in the lineup as the everyday left fielder, but I was 100% wrong. Alou’s 30+ game hitting streak, combined with his clutch hits, he was by far the catalyst of our offensive outburst the last month of the season. Sadly, we lost Endy for most of the season and never really got to experience the post “the-catch” days of Endy Chavez, but for the time he was in the lineup, he provided the lineup with great defense and speed off the bench. Carlos Gomez showed great potential, but is still young and has a lot of maturing to do. I just hope Omar doesn’t trade him, because I would much rather have Gomez than Milledge. As far as bringing Alou back…Does anyone think Gomez is ready to start next year?
Grade: A-
Joe D September 23, 2007 writes this…and I agree:
4. Moises Alou – Alou is without a doubt the best off-season signing of the winter. Despite his age and the constant risk of injury, he helped build the Mets lead in April and May by leading the team in Batting Average before being shutdown with his quad injury. Since returning from the DL he is the reason the Mets still have that lead he helped to build. His heads-up style of play, and old-school demeanor, has been just what the doctor ordered for this Mets offense that looked stagnant without him in the lineup. He is a proven clutch performer and offers valuable protection in the lineup for Beltran and Wright.
Who cares what anyone else thought of it at the time. I thought it was a disaster. The complete opposite of what Omar stated he was going to do here.
Younger and more athletic and then spends a #1 draft choice on a 40 year old OFer AND loses the only catching prospect in the whole organization.
Real f****** brilliant.
You say the opposite meaning he said he would rebuild the Minors…yet we have…
Davis, Duda, Murphy, Niese, Tejada, Gee, Thole, Harvey, Familia, Mejia, Havens, Kirk….should I go on?
Looks to me like he kept his word AND built a winner out of some money!
And whatever…The lord God jessup has proclaimed it wasn’t Omar’s job to build the Minors we have the Dir of scouting to blame as he runs the team by himself!
Yeah you just complained that he wasn’t prepared to deal with injuries that cropped up…
Did you notice who was playing CF today? Didn’t hear a peep from you about preperation did we?
Then maybe you should pay more attention.
Link please…
Nice job. Lots of research and some good information. Most who know me know I was an adamant Omar supporter.
However, unfortunately this isn’t a competition between Omar and Sandy. Does it really matter at this point what Omar did? All we know is the old method lead us to where we are now and Sandy is taking a different approach. Some like it, some don’t and some are willing to wait until they see how things work out.
Yet everyday it turns into a competition between Sandy and Omar, Wright and Reyes….. blah blah blah. Honestly I am glad my blog is starting to pick back up because the novelty of this one is wearing off. Joe has a great thing here, I hope he doesn’t let these damn sides ruin the blog the same way Cerrone did.
Honestly I am glad my blog is starting to pick back up.
So am I!
Your constant whining, Agee’s rampant second guessing, Kingman’s overwhelmig ingonrance, and Jessep’s underhanded snakiness is wearing on me.
Hasta la vista.
Omar proves my point about general managers who wear only one specific hat instead of multiple ones.
As we can see, Omar did produce a very good minor league system. He also put together a Met club that was competitive from 2005 – 2008 before injuries befell them and age caught up with them.
Now, he also made many bad calls on the major league level with Castillo and Perez being the most notable but those show his lack of long-term budget planning or perhaps believing with the Wilpons that money just grew on trees. And his getting aging players he felt could have one or two good years left could have simply been his belief that the money was going to continue coming in year after year and if a player didn’t work out one year, he’d simply go out and buy another one the next – you all know, the Yankee tradition.
That I think was also the way his bosses, Fred and Jeff, saw the situation too at least until the Madoff scandal and economic collapse. The money was just going to continue coming in, perhaps less in some years than others, but not dry up and actually be lost. So they are to blame for setting the standards Omar was allowed to adher to.
But as I’ve said in other posts, it’s unrealistic to think that a lawyer with no baseball sense can come in, work in the legal department and then suddenly develop the skills and insight to make decisions regarding baseball personnel. Except for the rare exception of the boy genuis, that just does that happen in any walk of life. And because Sandy gets the credit doesn’t mean he actually did nothing more than give his stamp of approval for the selection process and then took over when the contracts and bonus offers were being negotiated, the areas in which his expertise and skills came into play.
I See it like this.
For years and years we’ve always had so many “holes to fill” and very little depth, if any.
The thing this team has lacked through the years is a plan and direction. A road map to respectability. Because 17 non competitive seasons in 23 years is any thing but respectable especially when you have the largest payroll in the entire league.
You are what you are and that’s what we are. A team with no direction, no current culture of success, we don’t stand for anything and anyone at all that owns a glove can make the Mets. Doesn’t matter what position you play, if you’ve never played the position, if you aren’t any good there just doesn’t matter. Your on the team. We’ll just pick up some expensive crap and some cheaper crap from the where ever we can, stir it up and see what happens. Then come July we’ll sell whatever we can for pennies on the pound and some window dressing and begin perusing the various different piles of crap available in the off season at full price and start the process all over again.
Other than the two times one of our division rivals furnished us with two of their best players this approach has never worked and even when it did, it was very short lived and precipitated an immediate crash most notably in 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2009, 2010 and 2011. The lessons of 1992 and 1993 were never learned. Attendance spiked and crashed as well.
This idea that multiple years of systematic failures in the organization can be fixed every off season by purchasing crap at various price points has been proven to be a failure.
The Wilpon’s themselves have always believed in this method and have now steered the boat onto the rocks a 3rd time in two decades. They have until now only hired people they had worked with in the past. People they had relationships with that could be counted on to push and pull in the direction they preferred to go in. One needs to look no further than the Kazmir deal to see the the types of baseball decisions the Wilpon’s favor. The idea that an interim GM would, on his own, trade the crown jewel for a court jester is laughably naive. The Wilpon’s fingerprints are all over that deal. They have been steering this ship for the last 23 years and hiring people to steer it in the most shortsighted manner possible.
Alderson isn’t a scout, he isn’t a coach, he isn’t reckless, shortsighted, immature, impatient, gullible, self indulgent or naive. He’s practical. He knows that if a teams best developed pitcher in the last 23 years is Bobby Jones, that’s not going to win pennants. He also knows the chance to trade for an ace is dependent on having something to trade and that a team with so many weak spots just can’t afford to trade the few truly desirable prospects we do have. He also knows somewhere in the minors are 15 useful to outstanding players who will be here in their prime and for 8-12 years, not their last 3 or 4, but which ones? Hard to say because while there are numerous intriguing prospects most of them haven’t strung together even two good minor league seasons back to back. Most of their stocks are up one year and down the next. Most haven’t really advanced very far and by the time they have to be put on the 40 man roster aren’t even able to provide depth in AA.
Carson, Familia, Armando Rodriguez, Schwindon, Stinson, Satin, Kirk, Flores, Lutz, Havens, Valdespin, Lagares and Puello are all being protected within the organization without the likelyhood of more than a couple of them actually being able help at the Major League level this year. However some of these guys will prevent the need to go shopping for crap that you can’t get off your shoe at any price in future off seasons and as young, properly prepared prospects will be learning their positions in the minors, not 4 years after coming up here. Next year there will be the need to add Gorski, Cordero, Den Dekker, Edgin, perhaps Centeno, Geodell, Peavey, Aderlain Rodriguez, Cecceliani so roster spots are really at a premium if you ever want to get out of the market for crap every off season.
With the ability to purchase expensive crap no longer possible or practical that leaves just inexpensive crap that will come here on one year deals so we have a roster spot on the 40 for Darin Gorski and Albert Cordero so someone doesn’t nab them on us and put Gorski in the pen for a year and then their rotation and make Cordero a 3rd string catcher for a year and the their starter for 6-10 more.
Sifting through all the inexpensive crap and getting it to come here on a one year deal isn’t the ideal way to shop but each multi year contract given out removes one of the above mentioned prospects and that just means that we would have one more “hole to fill” or one less prospect to trade and be right back sifting through the pile for the least offensive crap available in January that will actually come here.
No Alderson probably isn’t in the boiler room working on the engines, swabbing the deck or performing maintenance on the artillery or firing the .50 cals. He’s making sure the people he hired, promoted or retained are doing that while he charts the course and deviates only for opportunity not shortsighted desperation or irrational exuberance which is the exact opposite of the way things have been done around here for 25 years.
For that we should thank God that someone brought the ship into port for repairs rather than sinking while fully loaded and lamenting about what might have happened if the gaping hole in the hull had been properly repaired and starting all over…………………again and again.
Comon tag this team under Omar most definitly DID have a plan and direction you just refuse to admit it!
This was the plan when Omar got here….
BUY for the short term and while they were playing competitive baseball rebuild the minors in the meantime!
And that is precisely what he did and you refuse to admit because you don’t want to acknowledge:
Duda
Davis
Murphy
Niese
Gee
Tejada
Kirk (I gave up spelling his last name for lent!)
Harvey
Familia
Mejia
Havens
In a mere 6 years he got all that and three cosecutive competitive seasons!
Your whole dismissal of those guys is only because you only work from hindsight and pick players 10 years after they were drafted who eventually became all stars as your examples of who we did not get!
No we didn’t get Clemmons, a lot of people didn’t get him! Boston did!
And in 5 more years a lot of teams will not have gotten Duda and Davis if they keep on doing what they have been doing and make the All star team!
The problem is your hindsight is selling short guys who you haven’t given the time to show what their history will be!
And because they haven;’t done it in 5 years since they were drafted they must be busts to you!
Metsie of course Minaya had a plan and direction unlike the guy with no job who sits at his computer all day writing “War and Peace length” posts spouting what things COULDA been like – as he notices now 10 years later – while ignoring the fact the Mets did have chances on the field to change their destiny many times.
Injuries in 2009 and 2010 curtailed Omar’s plan and broke the “bridge” connecting 2008 to 2012 otherwise he’d still be here today. The team would have remained a contender while developing kids in the minors until they were ready to step in and help sustain the team in it’s yearly pennant drives.
Kind of what people, for some reason think, is the “new” plan of this “new, innovative” plan of this current front office. Omar already had it in place as indicated by the kids on the big club and the state of the minors today
2009 and 2010 didn’t curtail Omars plan just hurt the competitiveness of the remaining years of the short term part of it!
No different than trading away All Stars for kids 4 years does the road if you ask me!
In both cases there is loosing to have to sit through, only in Tags method it’s PLANNED losing the other it was just fate that caused the losses!
Omar did get three competitive seasons, now that is as much hindsight as anything tag does and no one could say we would at the time, but that says his plan DID work!
But there is no Guarantee with this Kids only plan either and Unless they start winning and competing for the playoffs next year there is no way this plan surpasses what Omar did unless they get to a WS and play for the playoffs three years consecutively!
And even if they DO manage that it will largely be because of all those players Omar got as Part TWO of his two step approach!
Part one didn’t last long enough for part two to take over…
But Part One did work and Part Two is what everyone is hoping will make Sandy a success in two years!
And if it does, just wait and watch while the cheerleaders try to give Sandy the credit for that even if Wheeler and Nimmo have nothing to do with it!
Omars plan failed yeah right, but Sandy’s plan in reality is just to use that good Part Two Omar built and fill in around it!
And so far all he has really added was Wheeler and Nimmo…In Two years time!
At that rate it will be another 25 years before Sandy builds a roster of consisting of all kids they want!
And Wheeler and Nimmo will be close to retirement by then!
It was all fate that caused us to not win.
I guess it was just fate that caused the NYY to go the postseason 15 times in 16 years.
I suppose it was just fate that caused the Braves to go to the postseason 14 times in 15 years.
Just fate that the Phillies won 5 straight NL East pennants.
Just fate that decides and explains every pennant race, playoff series, and World Series.
Now I’ve heard it all.
Excuses, excuses, excuses.
Was it fate that the 3 years before Art Howe managed us he averaged 99 wins per season but with the Mets he averaged 69 wins a year?
I had no idea fate could play such a large role in two different teams won loss records under the same Manager during the same 5 year period.
Oh I think Omar had a good plan. He was planing on focusing on Pitching, Speed, Defense and sustainable system. Unfortunately for Omar (to the benefit of us the fans) the Mets had about 8 players have career years in 2006 and miss the WS barely.
I don’t think Omar expected to be that good in 2006 and at that point started to abandon some of that approach for quick fixes because we “were that close”. However, some of those players started to come back down to earth and the quick fixes got injured and the 2007 team collapsed. The 2008 team honestly wasn’t very good to begin with. Yes 2009 was killed by injury but was it going to be that much better than 2008? Not with some players declining already and the next wave not ready yet.
The thing to keep in mind is that while 2007 and 2008 were certainly better than 2009-2011 they weren’t division winning caliber seasons or teams either. 87 and 88 wins shouldn’t ever win you the division in the NL East and honestly shouldn’t win you the wild card most years either (obviously with an additional WC team this year that could change).
What’s with this no job stuff?
Just because I don’t endlessly drone on about some quasi business I “own” editing videos of all things doesn’t mean I don’t support myself. I’ve had plenty of successful business and done plenty of things on the side none of which are any of your business or anyone else’s interest or the reason this website exists in the first place.
Your always trying to talk about your “business” other people’s business, wives, girlfriends, daughters, telling people to go rape their mothers, or that you’d like to spit on them or some other immature jackass nonsense that has nothing to do with baseball or the Mets.
One friend of mine who works in the mental health field has you pegged as some sort of angry immature anti social misfit with a dislike, hatred or fear of women who spews the same sort of hate and inability to understand that not everyone needs to share the same exact opinions you do that she hears all day in the course of her employment.
You should be tranquilized, rubberized, institutionalized and psychoanalyzed.
” One friend of mine who works in the mental health field has you pegged as some sort of angry immature anti social misfit with a dislike, hatred or fear of women who spews the same sort of hate and inability to understand that not everyone needs to share the same exact opinions you do that she hears all day in the course of her employment. ”
” You should be tranquilized, rubberized, institutionalized and psychoanalyzed. ”
Right on point Agee. And this was a 1st guess. lol
Metsie, I’m not saying Omar didn’t have a plan. He did, but he changed course mid stream. I’ve always said that he didn’t bankrupt the Mets, in fact I’m pretty sure that I was the first to make that point. I’ve also been by far the biggest advocate of the guys he did get and yet all that did was cause the monkeyballers to claim that I want nothing but a 25 man homegrown team.
Nothing could be farther than from the truth. I want options in the farm so one doesn’t feel the need to sign Castillo, Perez, Bay or spend a #1 pick on a 40 year old.
I want the prospects to go get Santana, CC, Halliday, Lee, Pineda and I want competent Major League catchers, second basemen, RFer’s that are weapons defensively as well as offensively. I also don’t want to see so many high draft picks squandered on college relief pitchers because relief pitchers are available to be purchased every off season for 1-4 M a year, frequently with just a one or at most two year committment. Aces and everyday position players in their prime aren’t. I also want some creativity from the GM. An admission that sometimes it makes sense to peruse the non tender list and pair together two “imperfect” players into one effective platoon or that it may make more sense to let a guy nearing the end of his career go FA and leave us a supplemental pick and do with out a former All Star at every position for the greater good of the the teams future.
To me it’s very clear that Omar’s plan was to get pitching from the draft (unsuccessful in bridging to 2009) and young athletic position players internationally. (takes too long for these 16 year olds to be effective by 2009) and get the supporting cast of backups, reserves and semi competent stand ins from the 7th and 13th rounds.
The only way the plan as implemented could have avoided crashing is by going over slot in the 3rd – 13th rounds with the HS talent that had yet to be siphined off. With an ownership that wouldn’t do this a crash was inevitable and now those capable and competent backups and platoon guys are our full time starters and playing positions their unfamiliar with or just not good at.
I could see this coming as far back as the 2006-2007 off season but I really believed in Omar. Then came the draft that was big on college relievers, a trade that should have bought some time while still being good in Church and Schneider that busted, a rotation that was held together by paper clips, a bullpen that blew every game, players not put on the DL, a virtual Major League tryout on the mound during two consecutive pennant races and the selling off of draft choices for cash. Depleting any and all depth by trading for injured pitchers and the ultimate, yet another high draft choice spent on LF and the quick fix.
The plan was abandoned by the irrational exuberance of 2006 and the crash was accelerated in that off season but it was preordained by the refusal to inject high end talent into the farm with over slot selections of players with the physical ability to play great defense AND hit since so many 1st-3rd round picks were spent on just getting us close now and flat out squandered or wasted when kept.
4 out of 18 (5 of 18 if you count Pelfrey) is not a good job in the first 3 rounds and while there is a chance of upping that their is also a chance we don’t get full value out of the 4 we’re counting on too. Add in Duda, if he handles RF, Murphy, if he handles 2B, Lutz 3B, Gorski if he hits his ceiling and count Niese as an over the top success but recognize that the reason half our starting lineup are first basemen is a direct result of either not going over slot or spending the picks on just getting competitive.
how do you get those options to replace Perez and the others in just two years time pray tell?
You say he shoulda without any thought given if any human possible coulda!
He didn’t abandon his plan at all! Thats why you got Alou and Wagner!
He gave up very late 1st rounders to get something to make the time he needed to get all those kids he did eventually get!
How long do you think it takes to draft and develop a kid without rushing him?
You complain about rushing Pelfrey then complain about not rushing someone to take Perez’ place?
tell us all what you think the time needed to draft and develop replacements for MLB guys and take that number and subtract it from the years Omar was in charge in 2005-2010…
If you come up with a negative number when you do then you are bitching about Omar doing something even you will be admitting was IMPOSSIBLE!
If you think it takes 4 years without rushing could he have possibly had a guy to replace Perez in 2008?
You expected him to pull minor league rabbits out of his hat in just 3 or 4 years making picks and building the Minors?
Do you expect Sandy to do that because we are fast approaching year three here and no one he has gotten yet is going to be here for at least another two!
Well you don’t address a shortfall of talent by settling for someone your unsure of and committing 3 years and 36 M to them one a hope and a prayer just because you don’t have anyone else.
Jeez, is that what they taught you in the different corporations you worked in?
Just the mere fact that Minaya offered Perez arbitration and tried to sign Lowe tell you all you need to know that Minaya had misgivings and the fact that he had misgivings tells you all you need to know about whether it was a wise idea to piss all the high draft choices away and draft college relief pitchers when he kept them.
so then TELL US!
Who takes his place?
Got a name? Got a kid from the MiL that wouldn’t fall under your category of Rushed?
Got a free agent that only cost 36 Mil that was better?
We are ALL EARS!
That’s the point. Why should we be restricted to whichever pile of crap that’s available every off season. Why not put some thought into 2009 back in 2005 and 2006? 2005 deadline we were out of it why not swing a deal for some pitching prospects? Why always be left at the mercy of whoever’s available because sometimes there is no one decent around.
As I recall the 2005 deadline the talk was all about Manny and Soriano, pitching wasn’t on the radar at least as far as the media goes. Why not?
I know you prefer to the intrigue of off season big money acquisitions but the reality is a fair percentage of the best guys get resigned before they hit free agency and others go like Santana in a pre arranged trade and sign.
Minaya was here for 4 years by this time. Five off seasons. Pelfrey was all he developed and Santana the only decent pitcher left that he traded for or signed.
It was no big surprise that Ollie was going to be a free agent that year or that Borass was his agent. Nor was Ollie considered to be a sure thing, polished pitcher.
Here you want a name. How about Jason Vargas. He was one of the 7 guys we traded for Putz, Green and Reed, two whom sucked and the other arrived injured.
How about building a rotation in reserve for the opening of the new stadium? How about holding onto some of your options, providing some depth and competition? Having some in house guys so Borass doesn’t have you over a barrel?
Nope, no thought ever given to subsequent years, that’s how we wound up with a MLB tryout every night on the mound in the pennant races of 2007 and 2008.
Why?
Because Sony hasn’t put up their All Star Hall Of Fame Rockem Sockem Robot out to retail yet?
Because Cloning Sandy Koufax wasn’t an option yet?
You have to sign and fill your roster with what is available!
Since spending obviously wasn’t his issue it’s not like he signed perez because he was cheap but because of the availability of other options!
Your point would seem to be that why didn’t he just wave a wand and get a good pitcher but since you could not name the alternative I will assume there was none at the time!
And how can you blame him for there being no one better available?
Maybe he wanted someone else but got rebuffed because they didn’t like NY or the Yankees snared him…
I can’t say all I know is that no name to date has ever been mentioned as a better signing and you can’t blame Omar for not drafting one with only two years to develop him!
Right, which goes back to my point of handing over so many of the best draft choices and then having to choose between expensive crap or cheap crap every off season.
Sometimes there’s a free agent that really is worthwhile that you want to sign. That’s one thing but when you rely on that one source to provide ALL your needs you wind up closing off options and consequently reaching, praying and hoping like with Castillo and Perez and even though Omar had already been here for 4 years and could have provided his own successor there is no question that Phillips spending draft choices on guys like Cedeno, Weathers, Appier, Ventura and Zeile and then getting nothing for them except salary relief hurt Omar’s options. Trading young major leaguers and the farm also contributed because the pool of options Omar had was limited.
See this is what moneyballers never seem to be able to wrap their minds around. The quick fix even when it works comes with a cost attatched. Not saying it’s not a worthwhile cost at times, but when it becomes the central plan and you go FA or two every single year your going to make alot of mistakes and that REALLY has a cost attatched to it as evidenced by Alou, Castillo, Perez and Bay and immediately prior to them Ventura, Zeile,, Appier, Cedeno, Weathers, Floyd.
Glavine and Beltran were really the exception.
Omar knew how bad the draft had been under Phillips. He knew the pitching sucked when he got here. He was a GM in the same Division for 3 years and here for four before that. He did a good job in getting Ollie and Maine to begin with but especially Ollie who was really a hire act it was stupid to count on him but things could have been worse too. He could have gotten Zito for 7 years. Perez didn’t kill us bt what he gave us on the field, he killed us in that we had to dip so low into the pitching hierarchy to replace him and that goes back to the work not done by Omar the previous 4 years, the quick fix trade of Kazmir by Duquette and the work not done beforehand by Phillips.
There should always be a few credible options in your own system. Our credible options were Redding, Livan, Lawrence, Williams, Sosa, Figgy, Misch, resign Perez. That’s not the sign of a healthy farm.
Oh please Tag which draft pick that OMAR gave away was going to take Perez’ place?
I suppose a draft pick teken in 2006 was going to thrown into the startimng rotation in 2007-2008?
More on Phillips than Omar but Omar didn’t walk in here blinded to the situation we were in. He was with the Mets from ’99-’01 and was a GM in our division from ’02-’04.
All GM’s are either helped or hindered by the work done or not done (or undone) during the previous 5-10 years.
For example had Duquette not traded Kazmir how does that effect the 2005-2008 situation?
Obviously Minaya knew Kazmir was gone but he did trade a lot of starting pitching out of here in Benson, Seo, Bannister, Humber, Mulvey, Guerra. He did bring some back in Maine, Perez and Vargas but left himself pretty bare when it came to starting pitching options going into 2009 and that goes back to what was and wasn’t done while he was here and before.
Tag even if you see the truck coming if you have no legs to rely on there really is nothing your sight can do to fix it!
Thats the point!
he DID see it!
And he drafted Pelfrey with his very first pick as GM of the mets!
That guy did start in 2007 and YOU say he was rushed!
So who could he gotten up here without Rushing?
So far you can’t name a sole and blame him for not fixing a problem you BOTH see but can’t name the fix for!
Again that’s the point. You have to develop your own ace or trade for one but that work takes years. If your constantly turning you #1 and #2 picks into busts or FA’s traded for salary relief you A) have a far below average chance to develop one and B) have nothing to trade for one.
Then you spend the offseason sifting through the various piles of crap offerred up on the FA bazaar and you may get lucky, get a year or two out of 5 or you may get nothing.
The CC’s and Lee’s have tons of competition for because their so rare in free agency.
If you want an ace you can’t spend 3 high draft picks over an 8 year period on LF.
And he had two years so your point is regarding Omar lack of having an option is….?
Or are you suggesting Omar was doing fine and Phillips screwed up the 2007 and 2008 seasons not Omar?
Minaya would have had better picks had he been allowed to pay over slot. I think the only one that Minaya payed over slot was Pelfrey. Too bad he is not worth it.
He went over slot on Erik Goeddel in the 23rd round in 2010. Good looking prospect. But you’re right. That’s on the Wilpons. They didn’t let Omar go overslot often, plus we gave up a lot of 1st rounders for the big free agent signings. Wilpons were stingy when it came to the draft hence the lack of impact players through the Mets system since the Cashen days.
I agree with you, but would add that Alderson went over slot on Nimmo by a lot based totally on perceived potential and this kid did not come from a baseball program. Fulmer, another high schooler, also got over slot. It will be 5 years until we know if they were worth it.
Probably right barring unforeseen progress. Evans was another overslot pick. There were a couple of others. It took Fred and Saul’s desperation to finally give his GM so dough to spend on picks.
some dough
Tremendous post vinny, as usual the CORE (me, bayonne, maniac and others more) Salute you!!!!!
Finally a post about the good that minaya did, i from the get go said minaya was a good talent evaluator, good scout, feel for baseball players and whatnot, but his desicion making as a gm were questionable to say the least, injuries also did him in, as we all knew the 2005-2009 mets were built to win at least 1 championship, omar was aggressive and hungry for that title in NY, but after a few mistake he shied away from making trades, forcing him to rely only on Free agency, which back fire big time by his signing of castillo and perez and then bay..
Great job vinny, i am looking forward to see harvey, FAMILIA, vaughn, Gilbert gomez and others drafted or sign in IFA by omar help the mets build a winning franchise for YEARS to come… Once the right people are in place of course!