6
2012
MMO Fair or Foul: Mets Have A Huge Problem With Positional Depth
An article by 
John Harper of the Daily News, emphasizes just how precarious the Mets situation is this season regarding injuries to any of their significant players.
If ever there is a season when any significant injuries could be deadly, it’s this one. How can it be any other way when the Mets’ best left-handed bat off the bench may well be Adam Loewen, a converted pitcher with 39 major-league plate appearances, and their sixth starting pitcher apparently will be 41-year-old Miguel Batista? In an era when depth is seemingly more crucial to a team’s success than ever, as players pushing their bodies to the limit break down all too often, the Mets have never been so vulnerable. Depth? You want depth? The Mets are practically the Kardashians of baseball, they have such little depth.
In an era when depth is seemingly more crucial to a team’s success than ever, as players pushing their bodies to the limit break down all too often, the Mets have never been so vulnerable.
The Mets apparent lack of depth beyond the regular lineup and rotation arms is alarming to say the least. I still wonder why there was such a big focus on the bullpen this offseason with such little regard for the rotation or any attention paid to the starting lineup that lost all star shortstop Jose Reyes.
If anyone had asked me in September what the Mets game plan was for the offseason, I would have said the following in this order:
1. Add a #2 or #3 type starting pitcher to rotation
2. Upgrade the starting catcher
3. Improve the bullpen
No.’s 1 and 2 were virtually ignored and I’m still scratching my head wondering what use a good bullpen is if you did nothing to improve in the other critical areas.
Still, I like the makeup of the team. I like our number two though six spots in the lineup. Not sold on Torres as a leadoff hitter yet, and we have three easy outs at 7,8,9 in the lineup. One of Thole, Tejada or Torres is going to have to step up and have an impact-type season. Take your pick.
The pitching scares me. Too many question marks. Will Johan come back and be an elite pitcher? Which Dillon Gee will show up? Will Pelfrey ever be anything more than an innings eater? What’s Niese’s ceiling, have we already seen his best?
But one thing is certain and Harper hits the nail on the head, the depth is sorely lacking.
What if Ruben Tejada got hurt and was out for the season… Ronny Cedeno? What if Lucas Duda gets hurt… Scott Hairston? Or R. A. Dickey… Chris Schwinden?
Our positional depth chart is pretty scary to look at.
Stay healthy guys….
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 23 | 18 | .561 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 19 | .548 | 0.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 23 | .465 | 4.0 |
| Mets | 16 | 24 | .400 | 6.5 |
| Marlins | 11 | 31 | .262 | 12.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
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Welcome back, Joe. We’ve missed you.
Thanks Des, I barely made it out alive this time, but I think I had an angel looking over me.
Glad to hear it, Joe. I’m sure none of it is fun.
Everyone can say all they want, but bottomline is this. The mets owners need to leave period. This is why i’ve been saying this, cus they done nothing again. They just don’t care. Let’s face it the players today are to demanding for everything that is money ya know. Where back in the day players and owners had a great understanding for money you earn. I do agree about long contracts, and when lots of money is invovled. Yet the mets could have sign some decent players to two year contracts for really low money until the younger players are ready. This is why the mets new a new face to run this company in the right direction as a whole. We need to rebuild our foundation bottom to top. New blood to show new cause on how to win and build a winner for years to come, instead of just one year and wait 30 years again to win. It’s time for the wilpons to go, why is hard this for anyone to get, tell me anyone can u tell me why the wilpons need to stay. What have they done for the mets, the city and their fans, i’ll guess nothing. Really nothing. If so where are all the championships. The onwers unmind players and leadership in gtheir core players. Hire coaches who can read the game to help develope young players right the first time. I’m yet again afraid of what the mets will do this year. We did need starting pitching, need a good backup behind the plate, some one who can play the infield if someone goes down. Maybe another outfielder, but everyone knows you need great starting pitching to be a winner, do you think the owners know that, well, well not cus if they did and wanted to be serious then they would have done that. So tell me are we in trouble or what, Please wilpons do what’s right and just sell sell sell please.
You say the same mumbo jumbo everyday as if we have a choice with who owns the team. We get it, the Wilpons blow but none of us can do anything about it so just root for your team and stop worrying about ownership. They’re not selling anytime soon.
the depth part I agree with.
Best I can figure is they looked at the crap available on the cheap, and figured that if a main cog went down, the team was screwed anyway so they would just got to a prospect getting their feet wet.
Bay or Duda goes down? Kirk comes up.
Wright? Well, probably Murphy with havens/valdespin for 2B. Or possibly Lutz, if he was ambulatory at the time.
SS? I guess Valdy? Cedeno is just hard to fathom.
SP well there they are pretty well screwed, since I don’t see any way they go with one of the start prospects.
Maybe we could kick the tires on Sandy Alomar Jr, Rickey Ledee, David Newhan, Julio Franco, Jeff Conine, Mike De Felice, Gus Moliana, Brady Clark, Trot Nixon, Andy Phillips, Jeremy Reed, Corey Sullivan, Angel Berroa, Emil Brown, Alex Cora, Mike Hessman, Frank Catalonotti, Mike Jacobs, GMJ, or Chris Carter. I’ll bet we can get him back for a lot less than two #1 draft picks.
Ah yes the good old days when we had plenty of depth.
Good times, good times.
I’m more concerned about SP depth than anything else.
Given the multitude of ‘the Mets are broke’ stories over the winter though, not adding any SP depth didn’t surprise me much. Not saying I like it or agree with it but more or less saw that coming.
While I agree about the catching, not really sure what we could have done there outside of a trade. Sure, there were some veteran catchers available, but most were a little long in the tooth for a catcher. I suppose they could have taken a chance on health and spent the money for a one year signing. Apparently, they didn’t think it was worth the money. Either that or they’re really checking pockets looking for spare change to field a ML team this year.
Glad to hear you made it out alive Joe, stay healthy
So the problem is depth in the event of a major injury to one of our stars. Now where did I hear that before? And the previous GM was unfairly crucified for it – not that depth was really an issue in the first place.
And ignoring the “batter” of a team? Ignoring the SP and catching? And a good point by Joe in that why are you gonna upgrade the pen (15.5 million worth of upgrade) without upgrading the SP and the catching?
I guess this is Sandy’s philosophy
This is how I see backups if there’s a long term injury, not just 15 day DL..
Ike – Duda
Murph – Turner/Cedeno early season poss JordyV or Havens later season
Tejada – Cedeno poss JordyV 2nd half
Wright – Murphy
Thole – RJohnson
Bay – Hairston poss JLagares
Torres – Hairston and KNieuwenhuis
Duda – Hairston poss Loewen or Lageres/Kirk
Hairston’s health is important to OF depth I think he’s a solid 4th not spectacular thou, it would hurt depth if injured I think Sandy didn’t sign another OF as he’d rather play Kirk or Lagares but if Hairston is not ready I bet he trades for a veteran. If Hairston hurt and OF depth is an issue Duda prob wouldn’t backup Ike and they’d have to go w Turner Satin and maybe Murph. Overall I don’t think our depth for everyday players is that bad
Starting pitching there’s Batista and Schwinden, real soft, maybe if Sept we could see Harvey Wheeler Familar
Relievers we have a crew of guys to compete for spots, pen depth least of my concerns
one thing to keep in mind is the changes to the CBA that in theory will lead to more guys being released late in ST than you might have seen in the past. I think. But, if true, then they might be looking at filling the gaps then?
It’s not even a question…there is no depth at all. It’s been bad in recent years, but it’s completely terrible this year. We’ve got only two potential position players in the minors who might be able to fill a spot, nobody good on the bench and noting to help the rotation. Our best options already are filling other positions.
I really hope this crap we’re dealing with now pays off sooner than later.
Hi Joe,
So glad everything worked out as we all knew it would and that you were only kidding about barely making it back to us.
Was so concerned with the starting pitching, Santana’s comeback, rebounds by Wright and Bay, the health of Davis and Murphy, Duda’s glove in right and Thole’s defense behind the plate that I already had enough to worry about without adding the lack of depth to my fear.
So even if everything falls into place – and that includes the Wilpons not sending off any high priced star players to lessen their expenses mid-season – one thing we can’t count on is our regulars not having stints on the D.L. with at least one or two not coming back immediately after 15 days.
I don’t expect Sandy to get much financial support from his bosses since these drastic cut backs have come without any ruling on the Madoff civil suit and paying back on the construction of Citi Field. It can only get worse as far as getting real help is concerned for as so many have pointed out, it appears we’re stuck with the Wilpons whose own personal financial situation can only get worse before it gets better.
Welcome back Joe!
I Certainly hope your were joking about making it back here…
As for the depth, How can you have depth when you can’t afford to keep your frontline starters?
What is worse is that where the organization HAS depth it isn’t being used in favor of playing a bat out of position at 2B!
Now granted thats a pretty impressive bat to get into the lineup and his injury history suggests he is going to need some depth behind him…
But it does beg the question why aren’t we trading some of this IF depth we aren’t using to get the players we COULD use?
Valdespin seems to be playing for the 2nd 2B spot, Havens is penciled into the future…
Maybe it’s time to trade Flores with something else to get that frontline starter like a Catcher or a decent SP?
What concerns me here about this direction is not the fact they want to build from within and fill in via FA but the fact that they are cutting guys like F-Mart in favor of a Carrasco who are kids that would be good particitpants in a blockbuster deal for something that not only solves a need but does so for 3 or 4 years as opposed to the one MAYBE two we have been getting at KMart!
I get it that some people don’t think much of our MiL kids but someone has to like them enough to trade for them in a quantity for quality deal!
Not suggesting it should happen now but thats a very good deal to make at the deadline!
OK so how do you get a #2-3 pitcher for what we spent? Even if you take Pelfrey’s money out of it, combine it with those 2 pitchers and you still don’t get one year of a #2-#3 pitcher. Best case for that is to develop one from within.
You trade for one!
OK and what established #2-3 pitcher are you trading for and who are you giving up?
There are 60+ #2 & #3 candidates out there…
What I give up depends on which one.
The better the pitcher the more quantity you give up!
You want names, pick one and I’ll tell you what I would give up for him!
No there are not 60 #2-3 options if we are going based on talent. How many of them are available. Again, this is why I don’t like numbers. Lets say mid-rotation starters.
Who do you think is actually available that fits that mold?
Sure there are there are 30+ teams and each has a #2 or #3 pitcher on their squad!
If you think there aren’t that many then your not really looking for a #2 or #3 pitcher your looking for something more specific!
The conversation is a #2 or #3 if you mean something else then state what that is please!
NAME THE NAME that you want!
Hmmm what other teams are we looking at for thereto be 30+ teams out there not including the Mets?
And if all we are looking for is a #2-3 pitcher with no ability restrictions attached then why do we even need one? We have a #2 and a #3 already… LOL.
ALL of them how about that!
You say it was impossible yet what is impossible is to get what YOU seem to want which is an ACE!
The problem isn’t that a trade couldn’t be made the problem is you want a steal or some guy that is better than a #2 or #3 because you have some LEVELING issues as to what is a #2 or #3 which don’t really exist!
And #2 or #3 pitcher is nothing more than a pitcher who is better than your current #2 or #3 pitcher you have!
You trying to say there are no pitchers better than pelfrey out there to trade for?
Are you?
Pelfrey is not our #2 or #3. At this point he is our #5.
On what bplanet pray tell?
Santana #1
Dickey #2
Pelfrey #3
Niese #4
Gee #5
Want to bet posting privs on the starting rotation being exactly what I said above?
I see it as Johan, RA, Niese, Gee and Pelfrey but regardless. Lets play the game. You wanted names, I gave you names. Those are guys who could come in and be a #2-3.
Ok we will see what the rotation is on opening day!
If Pelfrey is the #5 starter I will stop posting for a week!
If he is not you will!
Deal?
Why would I do that? I have no idea what direction that Terry is going to go in nor do I know if Johan will even be ready.
Also, the order they pitch in does not change their ability. On this team Pelfrey is the worst SP. Does not really matter where they slot him in.
I say based on body of work that Pelf is #4 right now, ahead of Gee. But certainly behind Johan and RA, and drpped behind neise too (and heading opposite directions!)
I could see that NJ. I think handedness will go into the equation as well.
I expect Johan, then Dickey then Niese because of him being LH and then Gee/Pelfrey. You might also look at how deep they go into games which MIGHT put Pelfrey after Dickey because you might not want Pelfrey, Gee and Johan back to back if they are not going deep into games.
Whoops I meant Stick.
Why woud yo udo that? Because you BELIEVE what you say don’t you?
Or is it that you don’t you just make up facts as the need arises and then abandon them as the need arises as well?
Is Pelfrey the worst of the 5 starters?
Lets take a look around
Phillies? None of their top 3 are being traded to the Mets.
Nats: You trading for Jordan Zimmerman? Why the hell would the Nats do that and even if they did you better back up the truck. We could offer Wheeler and Harvey and most likely not have enough.
Braves: Jar Jar? Who you gonna give up? They would want semi to ready position players, something we don’t have unless you are trading Duda.
Marlins: who would even qualify?
Reds: Nothing that they would trade
Cards: See above
Houston: Wandy? LOL
Brewers: The only 2 they have that would fit that category are going no where.
Cubs: Garza, lets come back to that one.
Giants: Cain… lol
Dodgers: Billingsley I mean Pelfrey?
Rockies: None
Dbacks: None
Padres: None
Yankees: None
Redsox: None
Rays: come back to that one
O’s: None
Jays: None
Cleveland: None
Tigers: None
Royals: None
Whitesox: come back to that one
Twins: come back to that one
Angels: None unless they are trading Ervin
Rangers: None
M’s: King Felix LOL
A’s: Nothing left
So out of 29 teams and “60″ players you get
Garza, JarJar, Wandy, Billingsley, Ervin?, Lirano who has been injury plagued for years, Peavy the same, Floyd is he even a mid-rotation guy?
I am sure I am missing a few but lets play with those above.
Quite a few left who are better than pelfrey aren’t there?
Did not know we were looking for a back end guy, I thought we were looking for an upper to mid rotation guy. Replacing Pelfrey with another back-end guy does almost no good.
So again, work off the list I provided unless you are going to provide your own. Who are you trading for those players?
Lots of things you don’t seem to know today!
Except maybe that Sandy needs help because yesterday the Papers ran a peice that said the honeymoon is over and he has to perform or start taking criticism!
That would appear top be your mission today in defending not making any trades except for All stars and crap returns and/or letting reyes go because your old argument about RS being so important doesn’t apply in this defense!
Which sounds an awful lot like Not guilty by reasons of insanity!
LOL, Sandy needs help because a guy in a paper said so….
As for your comment, you asked for names and I gave you some. You want to throw your own names in there, so be it.
It’s very easy to say “make a trade” but when you get right down to it you have to have something you can spare and you that fits for the teams willing to discuss a #2 starting pitcher.
I’m not of the belief that we have anything to spare in either the minors, majors or a combination of both.
Signing a guy like Colon is probably the only thing that I would have taken a shot at.
Not sure what the plan is for next year but there are a few really good looking aces, most of whom will be locked up or traded at the deadline if things don’t go well but even at that would it be worth trading Familia, Harvey, Wheeler or Mejia (when he shows he’s recovered) to just “make a run at the wold Card?”
Not really convinced about that.
Can’t see too many frontline pitchers dying to play for a team with four first basemen in the starting eight either but maybe that’s just me.
Anyway very interested in your trade proposals Metsie.
Let’s see what you got.
very easy to say you can’t make one too!
You never know unless you try!
Heard anything about Sandy offerring some Kids who play the Middle IF for something that could fill a hole and remove the 2B/SS logjam there?
You instead would rather convert a SS to CFer all because he’s on BA’s list as opposed to trading him for a real CF prospect instead?
Is every kid in your MiL that shows promise untouchable and the only way you can build the MiLs is via trading all stars one up for a kid?
At that rate it will be 2030 before you get enough kids to say you were successful!
You have to give away whatyou think is good to get something that is good!
Thats not bad to do it’s only bad when you take what is good at one thing and try to make him do something else because of your FEAR of striking out in a trade!
We did last year and you had a heart attack over it.
The Phillies have given up a load of talent in the last few years in order to address starting pitching. The Cubs gave up a ton for Garza, Reds for Latos and NYY for Pineda. Comparable deals for us would be along the lines of Familia, Harvey, Wheeler, Flores, Kirk, Valdespin Lagares, Cordero and Gorski.
Is that what you recommend?
I’ll tell you there is no way that pitchers are dying to come here and throw to Thole, pitch in front of Duda and Murphy and compete for 4th place if they have other options so that leaves the scrap heap, trade the high end prospects or offer twice as much in dollars and years.
Which one do you suggest?
No only in the case of Lee for Halladay have the Phillies given up front line talent to get players they needed!
The rest were all for MiL kids!
So that LOAD of talent was hardly MLB talent which is what we gave away last year!
They did it they got Halladay, We did it we got Herrera and something else!
Wheeler and NOTHING else!
Blanton (Cardanas, Spencer and Outman) and Oswalt (Gose, villar and Happ) were top talent trades too as was Garza, latos and Pineda.
But they were top MiL talent not MLB talent!
Well that’s the only way to obtain a young top flight starting pitcher, with top minor league talent. that’s usually why their available.
If your advocating us making a trade for a starting pitcher with Major League talent then you have to be discussing Ike, although his value must be comprimised with the illness and ankle so who else you talking about. Niese? Wright? That’s really about it right now and Wright’s value is WAY down at the moment so it’s really Ike and Niese for a Latos using Major League talent and their has to be a fit with the team we’re trading with too. Is that what your advocating?
I thought he was making the case that we shouldn’t care about trading top MILB talent for a pitcher because we need a pitcher. In other words, win now at all cost.
Well that’s what I assumed TRS but then he segeued into how the Phillies just traded prospects not MLB talent so I thought I’d ask him about trades from the 25.
Still no ideas on a trade for a starting pitcher in return for prospects or guys on the 25.
also, Lee was not traded for Halladay. Seperate deals.
No he was traded for the kids that got him wasn’t he?
Halladay was a three or four team deal if I’m not mistaken and Lee was part of that!
Not correct.
Ok Stand corrected!
Halliday – Drabek, d’Anaurd*, Taylor
Lee – Knapp, Carrasco, Donald, Marson*
*catcher
Nope. 2 seperate deals at roughly the same time. None of the players overlapped (or were redirected from one team to another).
the logic given at the time was that getting halladay thinned out the farm system too much, so they traded Lee to get prospects to replace the ones they traded, but the Phils kept everything they got back for Lee.
Should have traded Blanton, instead. Believe it or not, they were making the same salary in 2010. Wouldn’t have gotten much back, but having Lee in 2010 would have changed the landscape of all of baseball and they probably would have won the WS.
Please tell me since when does the pitcher involved in a trade get to say no unless he has a no trade clause?
trades don’t, the not wanting to come to NY if they had other options was referring to FAs.
Right, those are your choices. Trade for a current Major League pitcher and give up prospects like Familia, Harvey, Wheeler, Kirk, Valdespin,Flores, Lagares and Cordero.
Definite short term gain if we could get a guy like Latos or Pineda but at what cost to the future and how much of a short term gain? Enough to strip the farm of a considerable amount of our future AND enough to get us a Wild Card?
Not likely to get us a wild card and very likely to keep us from winning Wild Cards in the future but I’d be interested in hearing your trade ideas.
Specifics though.
I don’t think he is actually going to give them.
I know he won’t.
Gio Gonzalez – AJ Cole, Brad Peacock,Tom Milone, Dereck Norris.
Matt Garza – Hak Ju Lee, Chris Archer, Robinson Chirinos, Sam Fuld, Brandon Guyer.
Matt Latos – Alonzo, Boxberger, Volquez, Grandal.
Ubaldo Jimenez – Gardiner, White, McBride, Pomeranz.
Which prospects of that sort of talent would yo be willing to trade and for which starting pitcher?
Not happening.
Flores, Mejia, Holt and F-Mart for Garza!
Any Questions?
And you would have been laughed out of the building. You are going to trade an injured player, another injured player, a failed prospect and one other who has yet to find a position for Garza.
Man no wonder you did not want to respond.
Yep! Got proof they wouldn’t take it?
SHOW it!
if not then you can’t say they wouldn’t!
All you have so far is supposition and call it fact so I will call mine fact as well!
Now the burden of proof is on you to disprove it!
Got proof that Sandy did not approach teams about trades?
Got proof that Sandy did not approach players about signing?
Again, using logic it takes your top prospects to trade for mid to upper rotation pitchers. Plain and simple. Otherwise everyone would be trading their crap for those guys.
Got proof he did?
Two can play the Donal game!
No, you really can’t.
But I guess I started this.
No harm to you Metsie but that’s got to be the worst trade proposal I’ve ever heard.
Back in July 2009 that might have flown but we’re a long long way from there.
Do you have any idea what the Cubs gave up for Garza? Just one of the best starting pitching prospects and SS’s in the game today plus 3 other useable guys, WITH upside.
Sounds like something you’d hear on the Fan.
best according to who? BA?
Must we go down that route again?
That deal consists of four guys who all wound up on BA’s List and I have no issue throwing in a valdespin evans and Pridie onto that list as well!
We had them all a the time of that deal!
A fair offer for the Rays to bounce off what they got from the Cubs last off season would have been Harvey, Mejia, Flores and Fern, This offseason would be Wheeler, Flores, Valdespin, Gorski.
Can’t see Garza making that much of a difference to out weigh what those prospects might do for us one day or bring in a bigger trade down the road.
I have a question. Who is your dealer?
First post today, Not a single baseball reference?
WHO could have predicted that?
EVERYONE!!!!!
Something you keep forgetting Tag….
Next year is as much the FUTURE as 3 years from now is!
You don’t keep a good stock of MiL players by not trading them!
You get by continuing to ACQUIRE them via the draft and other trades!
Murphy is playing 2B this year…SO whats the loss in trading Valdespin and Flores even Lagares or Cordero for someone who helps you now AND in the future?
Why is it whenever a trade is discussed is it always the scenario where we give up our BEST to get lesser in return?
And why is it that we can’t trade some of those kids for BETTER kids?
Why is it always we have to give up Harvey Familia and Wheeler to get a #2 pitcher?
Because to get a # 2 pitcher you have to trade either established players or usually your top prospects.
Also, you trading our 2B prospect when we don’t even know if Murphy can play 2B?
I’m done with the guy who doesn’t believe his own beliefs!
If you don’t trust what you say is fact no one else should either!
Oh Metsie, you are just pissed that I called you on your screw up. It’s ok buddy most of us will forget by tomorrow.
What screw up was that slappy?
The one where I thought I was having a conversation with someone who moves his facts around the board and changes them as the wind changes?
LOL, yeah that one. We will let the readers determine this one.
Trading a good prospect this year to fill one hole would probably be an exercise in futility. Reason being, we’ve got more than just one hole to fill to be considered a contending team this year.
If we needed one good #2-#3 type pitcher to solidify the SP, surrounded by a solid offense/defense, to go along with a strong BP – I’d do a trade in a NY minute.
But no way is getting one decent pitcher back in a trade (one where we have to give up more than one solid prospect) worth it when very likely, it’s just not going to change much this year. We’d probably only gain like a max of 5 more wins with an additional starter.
Just too many question marks up and down the 25 man roster to make it worth it this year, IMO.
Agreed. Not only that but the guys we do have starting many are not sure things. Are you trading Jordanny and placing your 2B faith in Murphy and Havens? Then next year you are trading or searching for a 2B. Are you trading Kirk for a SP and then stuck with Torres?
Srt that all presumes the GOOD player you have to trade is actually going to fill a hole later!
Which hole is Flores and Mejia going to fill?
Which hole is Valdespin going to solve? The 2B spot that Murphy is in or later down the line when we create yet another hole by trading Wright and moving Murphy there?
Good Prospects are valuable yes but relative in value to filling holes because they must fill the holes you think they have!
We have a GLUT of middle infielders and in order for them to fill any holes requires putting them out of position!
Talk about Flores moving to the OF as an example!
If Flores is going to take the job away from Tejada then trade tejada and wait to fill Reyes’ place next year when Flores is ready!
We have used this WE HAVE HOLES excuse for every position except the most glaring one! PITCHING!
Mejia keeps being projected as nothing more than a Pen arm but he has the potential to be a starter if he stays healthy!
If that really worth holding onto so DEARLY and that filling a whole in the pen is better than filling a hole in your rotation?
Sure we may not get someone who will be the #2 or #3 starter for very long if Harvey and Familia are everything they are advertised at!
That still leaves you with a pretty damn good #4 and #5 pitcher who could be a damn site better than Pelfrey is!
So filling holes is relative and keeping players because you have holes is too! Because if they can’t fill those holes without a change of position then ship them off for guys who DO fill holes without having to change thier natural position!
We really don’t have a “glut of middle infielders.”
Flores is a corner IF/OFer. Valdespin may or may not wind up moving to a corner as well and it’s no guarantee that he’ll hit for enough average even if he stays. Havens is no sure thing, Tovar may never hit and Muno and Evans are 3-4 years away and who knows how they’ll develop so that’s a complete fallacy that we are all set at MI over the next 10 years. Hell Tejada’s not even a sure thing even though I like him quite a bit, and have for a few years now but what if he got hurt? Turner at SS? You have got to be kidding us right? Right? do you consider Murphy a sure thing at 2B? No need for a backup for him?
The reality is that guys like Valdespin, (errors/high K’s low walks) Tovar (good glove bad stick) and Havens (good stick, average glove can’t stay healthy) are already in everyone’s system already. Most teams already have better prospects at MI than these guys so why would they give up a #2 pitcher for something they already have better this?
We have ‘holes excuse’ isn’t just an excuse. It’s fact right now. Or it is IMO.
Almost the entire line-up is one big question mark.
The BP is the great unknown.
The SP is mediocre at best – Johan making it back non-withstanding – especially compared to the rest of the NL east.
I have no problem trading prospects for glaring holes if it’s the right call.
Right now though, just don’t have the opinion that the addition of a decent SP is going to make much of a difference for the ’12 season.
What was Flores when we drafted him pray tell Tag?
Valdespin?
Srt you say there are so many holes then mention Pen and Rotation and forget I’m saying all our prospect glut we have at 2B/SS should be traded for a Catcher or to shore up that starting rotation!
Well, there is that little issue of depth down in the minors too.
I wouldn’t exactly agree we’ve got a ‘glut’.
And why is it a fact Srt?
BECAUSE we are holding on too closely to guys who can’t FILL the holes we have instead of trading them for guys who CAN!
Possibly.
Or maybe our ‘prospects’ were mostly in the fair to middling type who wouldn’t net us a decent trade partner.
then why hold onto them as if they are gold and not trade off the numbers to get that gold?
Either they are gold and are worth trading for what you need, or they are not and worth trading multiples to get what we REALLy need!
Thats all I’m saying here!
If they aren’t all that good then they really aren’t going to fill holes and certainly not if they are fill spots that put them out of position!
Trade them off to get what does fill a hole naturally and draft better from now on!
Nothing wrong with the concept of trading prospects for established stars/above average guys who’ll be with you for a while Metsie but it is an absolute fallacy that it is ALWAYS where we give up the established star for prospects.
It’s been the other way around entirely going all the way back to Mazz/Darling, Terrill and Diaz/Bailor, Sid, Perhaps you could include Bonilla – Ochoa/Buford and Alomar – Ring but those were partially salary deals too.
Since 1987 it’s all been about us taking from the future in order to address the present and that’s about the only thing we’ve been successful with but our overall success has been piss poor. Twenty three years, three playoff appearances, three near misses and seventeen seasons out of it.
Facts are we’ve been attempting to address every shortcoming by trading prospects and giving away draft choices and it hasn’t worked. Every single member of our starting eight has questions about him, our rotation is mediocre and the bench not very strong either.
To sacrifice some of our future yet again would be assinine right now because a team as overall questionable as we are right now, with a farm as overall average as it is, is not a good mix for a 4-1 deal that would move our farm back to the bottom of the pack.
Well tell me which deal made in the last two years falls under the category of which you speak?
How many middle infield prospects do we have and how many holes do we have they can fill without changing their position and moving to the OF?
What is Flores going to fill the CF spot?
Is he going to fill the void when Wright gets traded?
Is he going to play 2B then?
Murphy to 3rd in that scenario?
Then what of Valdespin?
We had 1B depth with Davis and Duda, You have seen Duda play RF you think he has actually filled a hole there?
Thats what your proposing to do with those Middle IFers!
Your holding onto kids to fill holes you have already filled with OTHER prospects you didnt’t trade away and now have to play out of position!
And they play the positions the current prospects you want to keep play naturally!
So your not really filling holes just playing whack a mole with your prospects putting the square prospects in the continuing chain of square holes that makes you say 4 years from now we have all these holes because every prospect is playing out of position!
Instead I propose to trade them away for EQUAL prospects that fill holes without being put out nof position!
Trade Flores for a good catching prospect and it it take some other kids we have no use for to sweeten the pot so be it!
But hoarding kids you have no place to play because you hoarded kids and put them out of position from what you drafted them to fill is as dumb as hoarding FAs to fill a role for 4 years and then having no one to fill when they are traded away fro more kids!
You may have the best BA list in the MLB but they will all fail when you eventually promote them because they can’t fill the holes you have and your forced to use them there anyway!
All because you were too AFRAID to trade for the prospects you NEEDED with the ones you have but can not fuill the position!
Well you hoard your prospects till you know which ones are going to make it but I agree with your Flores for a catching prospect idea even though it would take more than just him since catchers are often held onto for inclusion in big pitching trades (Halliday, Latos, Pineda)
That wasn’t the sense I was getting from you about trades though. I thought it was minor leaguers for a #2 starter but yeah I would love to see the Mets active in moving some minor leaguers for other minor leaguers that are a better fit but just keep in mind that our system is about 18th overall with the majority of it’s value tied up in Harvey, Familia, Wheeler and Mejia who I would be VERY reluctant to move and after that the drop off is severe and the one strength that we do have is depth which would soon become a weakness if we made the 3-1 prospect type swap.
Right now our “glut” at MI in really no different than anyone else’s and most of them have the higher end prospect as well or established you ML starters in place.
Best thing for us to do is trade from the 25 for guys in the minors, for instance Cinn could very well have a need for a 3B. We have two in Wright and Murphy and Lutz, Flores, Marte backing them up so that’s a potential match but they’d take Murphy and not offer much. SD on the other hand is loaded with catchers but also loaded with 3B so there’s no fit.
Our MI prospects are really no more intriguing than anyone else already has.
Wait till July and hope to catch someone whose desperate.
Two things I’m trying to get accross here…
Either these guys are SOOOO good that they should be so coveted that trading them will get something AS good who actually plays a position we need…
OR
They aren’t all that good, holding onto them in the hopes they can fill a position they are not suited for is dumb and we might as well packages them in a Quantity for QUALITY deal that at least fills ONE HOLE correctly as opposed to four holes REALLY BADLY!
No one is suggesting we trade away Harvey or Wheeler but everyone seems to think that we need to to get something good!
ONLY if your limited thinking leads you to believe you have to overpay to get something!
You don’t need to swap your best prospect for someone else’s best prospect!
SOmetime all it takes is four GOOD prospects you can’t use anyway to get get someone else’s top prospect because the guys you have DO fill the holes they have!
Getting back on topic. Since when is the LH pinch hitter off the bench considered depth anyway?
Also, what is he suggesting? That they should have brought in a SS to replace Tejada? Or perhaps a SS that was better than Cedeno that was willing to ride the bench for Tejada?
Perhaps an OF that would be better than Duda? Whom might that be and how much should we have paid just to take AB’s away from Duda?
Are the Mets thin? Yeah but it ignores the very reason why they are thin in the first place and assumes that they could have, should have or had the resources to do correct that issue.
Best I can tell he wanted better quality (as in, startable) guys on the bench. Since the only other way is to have better talent in the minors, and that is kind of hard to sign.
We have had this debate before though. What guy is coming to the Mets to back up a kid that is capable of starting? Who is coming in to back up Tejada that is better than Cedeno? Who is coming to the Mets to be the #6 starter and head to Buffalo in the spring?
Exactly.
Battista, James, Olson, Hefner types.
A big part of the reason we’re thin is that we have PT guys starting. On a well conceived team duda would have an Endy Chavez to caddy defensively who could also play a couple other roles as well. Murphy and Tejada would be playing MI with Reyes with Murph the LH PH and backup corner IF and Thole the 2nd string catcher.
Some of our developed starters would really be best served being 1/2 – 3/4 starters mixed in with guys who compliment their weaknesses, ie a RH hitting 1st string strong defensive catcher.
Come on Metsi, you are busting everyone’s chops just to show us how good a lawyer you can be when it comes to those speeding tickets.
Actually Joey I’m just trying to get the Witnesses to stick to one story or the other! LOL
Either these guys are good and will get you the good hole filling guys who actually play the positons where the holes are or they are not very good and we might as well ship them all off for guys who do!