21
2012
Mets’ Defense Up The Middle Is Sorely Lacking
An article by 
Traditionally, winning teams are built for strength up the middle: catcher, pitching, second base and shortstop, and center field.
That’s not looking good so far for the Mets, especially with center fielder Andres Torres sidelined with a strained calf muscle.
With minor league prospect Kirk Nieuwenhuis suffering with a strained oblique, manager Terry Collins will experiment with infielder Jordany Valdespin and Jason Bay in center. I can see Bay, but Valdespin is total desperation and an indictment on the Mets’ lack of depth and foresight to bolster the position.
Second base is a concern because of Daniel Murphy’s lack of experience at the position. He’s awkward around the bag and doesn’t have consistent footwork. Meanwhile, there’s no doubt about Ruben Tejada’s defensive prowess at shortstop, but there is the matter of playing a full season.
As for the pitching, both the rotation and bullpen are deep with questions and concerns. This isn’t a strikeout staff and still walks more hitters than it should. As for the bullpen, it is patchwork with no proven lefty.
Josh Thole came up with a lot of potential, especially at the plate. He’s still relatively new at the plate and it shows with his ability to call a game and block pitches. He is still far away from being proven.
About the Author: John Delcos
I am an active member of the BBWAA and have covered Major League Baseball in several capacities for over 20 years, including ten in New York working the Mets' and Yankees' beat. I covered the Baltimore Orioles for eight years and the Cleveland Indians before that. I currently serve as an editor and senior staff writer for Mets Merized Online. Follow me on Twitter @jdelcos.
80 Comments + Add Comment
NL East Standings
| Team | W | L | Pct. | GB |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Braves | 23 | 18 | .561 | - |
| Nationals | 23 | 19 | .548 | 0.5 |
| Phillies | 20 | 23 | .465 | 4.0 |
| Mets | 16 | 24 | .400 | 6.5 |
| Marlins | 11 | 31 | .262 | 12.5 |
Last updated: 05/18/2013
Recent Comments
- Benny: on Mets GM Tells Ike Davis He Has Until End Of Month To Turn Slump Around: Wake up, Ike. We need you. Focus...
- Benny: on Is Marlon Byrd Finally Coming Around?: Byrd has positives and negatives like any...
- Wright Here, Wright Now: on Hefner Lasts Just Four Innings In Mets 8-2 Loss To Cubs: Definitely. I've seen Reyes do it many,...
- Ojeda's Perm: on Hefner Lasts Just Four Innings In Mets 8-2 Loss To Cubs: With a tough schedule ahead, tomorrow game...
- Teddy Klein: on Mets Minors Report 5/18: Puello On A Hot Streak, Wheeler Hits DL, Mejia Makes Rehab Start: Unfortunately today Satish, you jinxed Jeff Walters.
MMO Mets Chat
Need Tickets To The Mets Game?
Check Out These Great MLB Links!
Photographs From Gordon Donovan
5358 Fans Follow Us On Twitter!
1270 Fans Like Us On Facebook!
2341 Fans Read Our Feed!
1702 Fans Subscribe via Daily Email!
Ignoring the SP and the strength up the middle – the very foundations of trying to compete at the highest level.
But Sandy will get a pass unlike any other GM in the history of this organization
How are you ever going to be strong up the middle when you spend all your early draft choices on corner position players?
One catcher in the top 3 rounds by Minaya, Zero by Duquette and zero by Phillips.
One CFer in the top 2 rounds by Minaya, Zero by Duquette and one by Phillips.
Two MIers in the top 3 rounds by Minaya, zero by Duquette and one by Phillips.
Phillips signed Carlos Gomez and Jose Reyes, Duquette no one and Minaya signed Tejada, lagares a SS at the time, now a LFer, Valdespin, Tovar, Gamboa and Puelo
Fern was never going to stick in CF and Flores was never going to stick at SS.
Who would have thought – first three on the depth chart for CF – Torres/Hairston/Kirk – all injured before the season even starts.
You would think by now I’d stop being surprised by these things.
Here’s hoping at least Torres or Hairston makes it back on the field before opening day.
people complain about the lack of depth, but exactly how far can you go? Rosters aren’t unlimited.
I always figured that Kirk was the next man in line, and Hairston was the alternate. Of course if you lose all 3 you are going to be scrambling for a replacement, unless you want to call up a guy like Dekker just for a glove.
last year they picked up Pridie off the scrap heap at the end of ST. Entirely possible they do the same thing again, which is pretty much what any team would do.
hell, the Phils just lost a stiff back up (Michael Martinez), and are scrambling to find any live body to man the middle IF now.
Teams just don’t usually have 3 deep starters at every position.
Yeah the more damning part is not having more depth in the minors to fill in. It shouldn’t be resting on the hopes of Kirk but that’s as much a failure of Fmart than anything else.
there are more guys (like Den Dekker and lagares/Puello (whichever plays CF) that are just probably another year away.
so, more likely they have to bridge the gap right now with a journeyman type (like Pridie was).
and why they got Torres in the first place, as a 1 year (at most) stop gap.
Oh, stick…how I’m enjoying the whining going on with Philly fans right now.
Howard/Utley/Polance/Martinez all injured.
Cry me a river guys…….hahahahahaha
makes me happy to read the morning paper for a change.
They are (and pretty much openly admit it) so “all in” on the front end of the rotation that they have no real margin for error.
This morning, there was real speculation that Utley may be effectively done, especially at 2B, and may really need surgery if he is going to continue.
all they need is a couple SP injuries (which seemingly every team gets but them) to be decidedly mid pack average.
Utley done?
I know he’s going to see some specialist – I believe in CO. Wonder if it’s the same one Beltran dealt with.
I’m reading he’s got the Beltran problem with the one knee and tendonitis now in the other knee.
If his career isn’t over, he’s probably never going to play a full season again.
speculation down here. All the rest and careful build up wasn’t working, and now it seems his “good” knee hurts worse than the bad knee from last year.
No one knows if he is ever going to be able to actually ramp up to game speed, especially having to play 2B. And it is not out of he question that it may be a choice of surgery or don’t play. So that may cost a year, but not a career.
If Met fans should know anything, it is how quickly a 2B in his early 30s can fall off the cliff.
Interesting wasn’t this what happen with Beltran, the good knee starts to hurt because of all the stress put on it from managing the bad knee?
I believe so.
Although I think Beltran had bad knees – both – for several years. Bad knees as in arthritis, tendonitis, whatever – not that worse injury that cost him an entire season.
I just remember some conference where he was explaining why the good knee was hurt.
pretty much. plus both had the cartilage worn out, one just gave up first.
It was hard enough for Beltran to get back out into RF with those knees. I can’t even imagine him trying to play 2B on them (pre surgery especially)
Funny thing is some on here still wanted him to play CF and invest in a multi-year deal to do it.
Much as I loved Beltran, it was time to part ways.
Especially since we got a top pitching prospect for him. Hindsight being 20/20 and all.
Right we did great with the Beltran signing. Got him through his prime at market value and then let him go when the time was right.
Hi TR,
At least one of those was me.
Will not deny that Carlos’s range has diminished and this would factor into his ability to cover center like he used to, however, the knees did not affect him on the flys he could catch up to. His fielding percentage in right was .996 while the league was .983. His range in right was indeed lower than the league according to advanced analysis (see, I’m not against using such things) but who knows how much of that was having to learn how to position himself and size up the ball at such a different angle.
But if Torres is only seen as a quick fix for not more than two years, who would one rather have in center? I’m not talking about contract cost, simply in terms of baseball and the current emphasis for center being a short-term solution only in lieu of the long-term rebuilding plans. Torres then could become the fourth outfielder, the role he is more suited for.
Joey not that Torres can either, LOL, I don’t think there was any way in heck that Beltran could get through an entire season again playing CF. I think even Beltran knew that.
With the walls moving in there is the slightest chance Carlos would be OK in CF but very slight.
He still has all his skills intact but the quick movements required in CF that made him one of the best ever out there are gone. He’s a different player now. Still very good, but bigger and slower, not as quick.
One thing people have to get used to is that when you hear for instance how we traded for Luis Castillo you automatically think of him with Florida 3-6 years ago but he’s not the same guy. At positions like SS, 2B and CF the skills that make guys such outstanding defenders are the very first things to go. Add in knee surgeries, rehabs and far more often than not this just precludes the player from ever being able to play there again.
In the case of Carlos his instincts are still fantastic, he can still take the extra base but he has to pick his spots. Can’t just do it on whim anytime he wants to but at least as a former CFer who hits like a corner he has a place to go, unlike a second basemen.
I still think you have to factor in the greater likelihood of injury for Beltran in the fact that he still has the same knees that missed all that time and the fact of a greater likelihoods of injury in CF to start with.
But also recognize that the surgery helped repair those knees and Carlos was not playing in pain at all. A few years from now he might again develop problems but not at the moment.
Again, considering all the factors OTHER THAN MONEY (the root of evil, anyway LOL) would Beltran being the short-term solution for center be better than Torres? If nothing else, think of that throwing arm holding up runners at third.
The chrondromalacia knee problem with the one knee could not be helped or fixed by surgery – unless he opted for micro fraction surgery which is about 50/50 odds of success.
Along with that was bone chips from arthritis, which is what they went in there and scoped out. Mindset from what I read was that would cut down on the pain and inflammation of that, which in turn should keep the pain of the chrondromalacia at bay.
That pain as a whole was never going away. The more punishment, the more likelihood of pain that would have kept him out of the lineup. Expecting him to play CF in Citi was probably a recipe for DL stints sooner rather than later.
Not sure who this would have went down if Carlos didn’t have the very good first half he did, thereby netting us Wheeler in that trade.
Besides, we all know that there was no way the Mets were going to commit that much money to CF with the limited funds they had to work with. I know you said money aside but you can’t put the money aside. It was/is a big issue with the Mets payroll right now.
And he’s signed through 2013.
Maybe moving Jordany is desperation and maybe it’s foresight? Perhaps they see him as a guy that could reach the big’s quicker at CF than in the middle IF?
I said that last night. ST is the perfect time to give him a look. See how he does, how comfortable he is, etc.
The Mets know a hell of a lot more about how well he has played D over time at SS and 2B. If they think it is iffy that he will be good enough defensively, then it makes a hell of a lot of sense to see if he can utilize his speed out in CF instead.
Or entirely possible just Terry “what iffing”.
or, it could give Vladespin a much better shot at the majors as a bench guy, if he can cover 2 spots like that (well 3, back up SS too).
Was moving Biggio around an act of desperation?
I believe they moved him from Catcher to prolong his career and then it was more of a Yount-esque type move to fill a position.
Right but I believe he moved the entire way up right? From catcher to CF/LF to 2B to CF back to 2B.
Yeah, it was C, then Catcher/CF flip flop for a couple of years, then 2B, then back out CF.
Heard Baxter say before yesterday he’d be willing to give CF a shot too.
So Baxter, Loewen, Valdespin possibly – Bay to CF as a last desperate move.
On that note, I see Baxter’s is starting in CF today.
Rottino…..doesn’t he play all 3 OF spots as well as corner IFs and can catch in a pinch too?
We’ve got options – they’re just not very good options.
So do I as well as manage and GM… LOL. He’s a good story though. Reminds me of the guy a few years ago that was awful but was around because he could back up multiple positions including catcher. Was it Marero or something?
Marero….not ringing a bell.
Eli Marero. He was a catcher with the Cards, but morphed into a utility guy that also served as a 3rd catcher. Just IIRC not a particularly good one.
Mets traded some name that you would know (but I can’t recall!) for him.
I had to go look. He’s the guy we got for Matsui. LOL.
June 9, 2006: Traded by the New York Mets with cash to the Colorado Rockies for Eli Marrero.
S/B KASUO MATSUI
Hey, I was the one who wanted to move Wright to CF and slide Murphy over to 3rd.
Murph is showing some progress at 2nd, but he still has a long way to go…
As for Tejada, I’m one of those who isn’t all that impressed with his D…he looked decent at 2nd last year, but seeing that we haven’t seen a “good” fielding 2nd basemen for over 10 years…anyone can look good there.
I think Tejada has plenty of potential, but he’s got a long way to go…sadly, he looks the most natural and most conferrable at either 2nd or SS than any on we have (healthy at least).
Alderson has downplayed defense from the day he first got here. He places no emphasis on it at all. If he cared about defense Thole would be in the minors, Murphy would be on 3B, Duda would be LF where he will do less damage, Bay in RF where he played with Pirates, Wright would be in Chicago.
There is something very offensive in a GM that is not defensive minded.
Especially Catcher and 2B. You can’t be weak up the middle.
Eh, the 2B position has evolved tremendously into an offensive position. It has become the 2nd place you put bad defensive players on the IF. 3B used to be the 1B companion for awful defenders, now 3B is starting to become more of a defensive position and 2B is an offensive one.
Eh, the 2B position has evolved tremendously into an offensive position. It has become the 2nd place you put bad defensive players on the IF.
ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME!!!!
Come on man, are you serious?
When did defense up the middle go out of style?
Lots of teams haves started sacrificing defense at 2B for offense. Ask the Marlins and Braves with Uggla.
The average qualified 2B hit 18 HR.
Uggla, Kelly Johnson, Neil Walker, Shumaker, Zorbist? You think of offense or defense with these guys. If you go by defensive metrics, which I am not the biggest fan of, even Cano is bad as well as Alexi Ramirez.
It’s not just his glove or range, it’s his instincts alone that seperates him from the other offensive minded 2Bman. Utley and Cano are both good pivot men turning two and both are superstar offensive players. At least Utley was before the injury bug hit him. I think Murphy’s the position that Murphy would do the least damage is 1B. He’s a born DH. For the record I love the guy, great work ethic, great team guy, terrific hitter, but I don’t think he took to many defensive drills as a youth.
Hey I am in here buddy, not on the loser box. Thus if you want to respond to me you can here and I will make you look even more foolish than you did when you said that Bay was the Pirates RF.
Now back to the topic. I never said that defense up the middle wasn’t important or that I would rather have an all-offensive guy there. My point remains 100% true. MANY teams are now choosing more offensive minded 2B and are sacrificing defense at that position while 3B has become a less offensive and more defensive position. You don’t have to like it or agree with the premise, however GM’s around baseball are starting to change that notion. How many light hitting defense first 2B you see out there on competitive teams?
Sorry, I’m from the school of strong defense up the middle. Turning doubleplays are crucial and we’re going to suck at it. We weren’t good with Reyes at SS, how bad do you think we’re going to be with Murphy at 2B and a kid getting his feet wet at the MLB level.
Sorry but I’m form the old scholl of strong defense up the middle is extremely important. Being able to turn 2 is crucial especially with our staff that pitches to contact and has a lot of traffic on the basepaths. It’s an offensive and defensive position. Jeff Kents are few and far between.
Should say I’m from the old school.
well, the ideal of course is to have a strong defensive player at every position. But, you usually have to compromise, since there aren’t enough guys strong on O and D to go around.
so teams have to decide where to “sell out” to a degree. Go with an all glove no bat guy (Rey Rey)? or a big stick no glove to speak of (Uggla)?
teams have been doing that since the beginning.
the point made above though is true (whether you agree with it or not). The game has evolved to where some positions that used to be considered purely defensive are looked at as places to get offense from too. And 2B is one of them (SS already went though this to a large extent). Catcher too for a while.
certainly a legitimate debate as to which way is “better”, but you can’t argue that there are a lot of teams that have decided to roll the dice on sacrificing some D at 2B to gain more offense.
And it’s not like this FO is not aware of the defense deficiencies right now.
SA was quoted as saying something to the effect of the offense should be good and they’re hoping that improved offense is not at the expense of the defense.
He didn’t elaborate but to me, he probably was thinking Duda and Murph, to start with.
Oh and our 3Bman isn’t exactly a good dender either. We’re strong at 1B,CF and should be okay at SS but the rest of the team scares me.
Bay is good. Not super big range, but OK still for a LF, and he plays a quality OF.
Hi Any,
At Citi Field I couldn’t determine whether or not Bay was OK in left field simply because I couldn’t see much of left field from my seats – but he sure looked good standing in his normal position!
Joe
Actually Bay is much better than the media portrayed him to be when we got him. That’s true.
There’s also something offensive about the lack of research.
Bay has played 1 game and 8 innings total in his MLB career in RF.
As much as I want him to move there, where did you get that was his position with the Pirates?
Also, I like Murphy and he did play a decent 3B last year but exactly why would he be that much different at 3B than the guy that had 49 errors in 196 games in the minors at 3B? Also if you take how many errors he had at 3B last year and put that to a full season it would give him 26 errors which would be more errors than Wright has ever had in a season. His .933 fielding percentage at 3B last year would put him 18 points lower than Wright’s career average. Did Wright stink defensively last year? Yeah, is that his norm to be that bad? No. How much did the injury change that? No idea. However, just to guess that Murphy would be a better 3B than Wright is foolish.
You talk about defense and the importance, which I agree with, but in the same post say move Murphy to 3rd and have Wright out of here. So you want defense, but prefer a guy at 3b that has played a whole 25 games in his career at 3rd. Ok then………
That’s all well and good but having 2 important positions like 2B and catcher filled by guys who are absolute abominations defensively will cost this pitching staff a lot of runs.
Don’t forget RF either and Tejada doesn’t have Reyes range, Bay isn’t above average and Wright is below average.
It’s a complete failure of the entire system for over a decade and a half that’s been covered up by importing 5 guys or so every single year.
Now that the monies dried up the imports are all of the least expensive variety and the guys we’ve developed can’t play defense.
Fonzie, I’m from the old school (maybe even older LOL) as you about defense up the middle.
One thing that got lost in the conversation regarding Daniel was his judgement. Notice in last night’s game instead of going for the out at first he tried getting the speedy runner at second and everyone was safe? Defense isn’t just the ability to catch and throw but to know what to do once the ball hits the glove. That would have been the third out and even though no runs scored on that particular play, it will catch up on future ones.
Perhaps that can still be learned through experience.
Those type of things don’t bother me because a player learns through those experiences. Now if he did that same mistake over and over? Yeah bad instincts.
That’s what worries me about Murph. I don’t think his instincts are all that good at 2nd. Now with more playing time, that might take care of itself but right now, it’s noticeable.
Keith pointed it out one day in the booth as well.
SRT is on the money. Keith has said on more than one occasion that Murphy has no baseball instincts what so ever and that’s not something you can teach. Lets be honest the kid can rake but every other aspect of his game is deplorable. Our defense will lose us some games this year.
I agree Fonzi. I’m hoping even though it may never happen, but I’m hoping that Reese Havens can finally get healthy and make a push for the 2B job, moving Murphy to the bench and spot start. Makes me wish we had the DH in the NL. I’d like to keep his bat in the lineup but 2B is not one of the positions I would even consider for him. Luckily he doesn’t have a 3rd knee to expose to injury.lol
I mean I agree Joey.D. Lmao.
Fonzi,
Now I’m the one really LMAO – you send posts agreeing with yourself???
I know Joey, I’m starting to sound like Metsie.
Hi Fonzie,
You said that, not me. LOL
I affectionately refer to Daniel as “Marvelous Murph” because his misadventures both with the glove and as a base runner remind me so much of my first Met hero – “Marvelous” Marv Thronberry. I still can’t forget that game I was watching on TV when Marv hit that famous triple in which he was called out on an appeal play at first. Not quite eleven years old, I had no idea what an appeal play was. Murph and Marv – both marvelously funny, unintentionally of course.
I never saw Marv play, I missed him by a couple of years but I heard the stories. Kiner once said Marv lost a groundball in the sun. I don’t even think Murphy could do that. lol… But he’ll try.
The defensive issue is why I was really pulling for Havens to finally be healthy and stay on the field. He really is probably the best combination of good defense and real offensive potential they have for 2B right now. Who knows if we will ever see it in action though.
I see a lot of the players out there as stop gaps anyway. Part of the clean up process or whatever you want to call it. I’m not willing to say that the FO just doesn’t give a crap about whether guys can play in the field or not. More like they inherited a number of guys and are making the best to cobble the team together right now, to figure out who can play and what to do with them.
I see Thole and Murphy as being on make good deals right now. This is their shot to show they can handle the job, or they will be moved (out or over). Whether Wright is around is still a wild card in this too.
a big problem with catcher especially is, it is not easy to find a LT option if you didn’t groom it yourself. And the BUs available that have a good reputation with the glove were all really limited to being a BU, and mostly old, so not going to help much. If Thole doesn’t develop this year, he will be gone.
Murphy won’t stick at 2B unless he really shows he can be at least average. And what the hell. no one gives the team any chance this year, so might as well find out.
and Torres was brought in because he IS a glove man (and of course, plenty of people just dumped all over his offense!). So yes, Sandy had to find a guy to play for a year until a prospect was ready, and he got a D first guy.
Probably better to look at new players being brought into the organization if you want to see if the FO values all around play (including D). The organization already has plenty of DH all bat types.
anyway, I highly suspect that within 2 years there will be a new catcher in place, a young CF with a good glove (Kirk, Den Dekker) and havens/valdespin (of the current crop) at 2B with Tejada at SS. Making the team perfectly fine up the middle.
Tejada, better hope he is good enough to stick at SS.
Havens not being able to stay healthy is a big disappointment.
If he doesn’t come back from this oblique injury and stay relatively healthy for the rest of this season, not sure what his projected ceiling will be.
shocking mets have another injury this time zach wheeler but dont worry, jessep will defend the medical staff…..
Nothing to see here folks!!!! It is business as usual…
NY Mets = multiple injuries & players playing out of position to compensate…also stunt a promising young prospects(Valdespin’s) growth by playing him out of position when he’s supposed to be honing his skills and improving at (2B & SS)his natural position(s) .
And Mets fans wonder why this farm system doesnt produce talented hitters that can field there positions…..See Duda(LF,RF,1B), Murphy(3B,LF,2B),Meijia(call up way too early and was worked like a govt mule out of the pen),Jose Reyes(moved to 2B to make way for the immortal Hall of famer Kaz Matsui),Satin(every infield position except C,SS), Turner (1B,2B,3B now SS…Disaster waiting to happen)….
This team doesnt surprise me anymore, if they brought up Nimmo (whom is 3-5yrs away from mlb)to play CF opening day I wouldnt be surprised….
NY MESS its always something….why cant this team get anything right???
What?
The reason guys like Duda and Murphy have moved around is that they have no natural or strong position, but can hit, so they are trying to find a place to play them.
Satin and Turner are playing different positions because they are bench guys. AKA utility players. And they have to be able to play multiple positions to have any chance of holding down a ML job.
Oh, and Turner was a SS early on (and played there in the minors). It isn’t something new they were trying.
Valdespoin is an interesting idea. Not that uncommon to take a MI and try them in CF either. And it isn’t going to derail his development trying it out in ST (the natural place to try new things). Could also be a chance to get him a job in the Majors, if there isn’t a starting gig available. And most reports indicated that SS was not going to be a real option for him.
Players in the minors are usually willing to play anywhere if it can get them to the show.
No way anyone could have predicted Torres, Hairston and Capt. Kirk’s injuries, so no one to blame here. Also no reason to believe Bay can’t step up and Loewen or Baxter with a right-handed hitting platoon partner couldn’t work for a while in LF. From the perspective of BA and power, it is probably a plus, but the Mets are in need of speed. Seems to me, they missed the boat on Endy Chavez for some unexplainable reason. Chavez was available and just the man to be the 4th OF. He is excellent at all three positions and a natural CF. He has speed and is a decent hitter, albeit without much power. But he was available and seemed to make perfect sense. He and Hairston would have made a very good L/R off the bench and Endy would have played the last couple of innings of virtually any game the Mets led after the 7th. My guess is they could still make a deal for him or someone of his ilk.
good point. at the end of ST there will always be glove only type guys available. Cuts will have to be made soon.
Hey here’s an idea, let’s all overreact. Holy hell you all are talking like all three of them are out for the year. you’re all saying “the season didnt even start yet”. EXACTLY, THE SEASON DIDN’T EVEN START YET. There’s still two weeks before it even starts. Don’t know if you all looked at a calendar lately.
Agree, WAY to early to “panick”. By Opening Day one or all three will be ready.
Hi Fonzi,
I have a picture of Marv fielding a ground ball with his chin up and his eyes closed. Sorry you weren’t around to be there at the beginning. It was great and spontaneous. Even Marv’s erratic play came not from limited talent but by trying too hard.
Joe