I don’t know how much the press or the Madoff situation hanging over the heads of the Wilpon affected the players. But I do know that with Madoff looming and the press literally pounding on them the difference in their style of play (not the won-lost record) was noticeably different before and after those trades. They began pressing, tying to do too much which showed in their loss of concentration. The sound aggressive play became reckless and risky. Even with continuing to score 4.4 runs per game without Beltran, the pressure was on the young kids to score more because there was less confidence in the pitching. Starters felt they couldn’t rely on the bullpen to protect their leads and the pen seemed lost without knowing they had KRod coming out in the ninth and thus lost focus on doing their own job.

Whether or not this permeates into 2012 and beyond is, of course, anybody’s guess. I could be completely wrong on my take of things. But one thing is for sure – I never saw a team as close as five games out in the loss column almost two thirds into the season – and playing as much as eleven games over .500 since the horrible start dismantled. Never. Not once.

I also never saw a franchise in such a big market area as New York in such financial disarray as the Mets (Dodgers make a close second LOL). With all their financial messes, the Marlins waited till their team won the world series before cutting them apart. They were losing money and getting further in debt yet stayed with it’s high salaried players instead of conducting a mid-season fire sale.

I think the latter was responsible for the former and nothing else. Moves like that for a team in the position of the Mets have never been done in mid-season before. Often, teams stood still and didn’t go after more help (i.e., the Pirates during their miracle first half) but they never dismantled.

This afternoon, Sandy Alderson admitted to Mike Francesa that the Madoff situation and what it could POTENTIALLY cost the Wilpons made it necessary to dismantle the team, something he also said he does not have to worry about now. He also said, however, that he had some money to still spend on the roster last year but didn’t. I can see that in savings from no longer having Beltran and KRod but at that point, spending on other players wasn’t worth it from a baseball perspective either.

Whether this will be just a bad memory for the fans and nothing more, we won’t know for a few years yet. And I hope that the pressure of having to meet such high expectations in front of a hyped up New York crowd doesn’t have an adverse affect on the young Wheeler when he is called up.

We shall see. All we can do is contemplate at this point and for all we know, it might make no difference in the overall performance of the team in the years to come, one way or the other, Wheeler and all.

I don’t know that the team was dispirited or felt undermined by the FO if at all and IF they did it may not have been due entirely to the trades either. there were other things going around that clubhouse. The end of such a bright future that never came together after starting out so well. The Madoff thing, never ending injuries, all the negativity of the press but you know Joey those trades created openings for other guys to get a chance. Duda in RF, Parnell and Acosta at closer. Young unestablished players are greatful for those chances. Older veteran’s who are fully focused on a ring are the one’s most hurt by that. All players seek to establish themselves and then win.

Whatever poor feelings they had (if any) would certainly be buoyed by a dominant Zach Wheeler (if it’s to be) every 5th day and when you think about that’s exactly what we lacked in 2006 and 2007.

Whatever short term hit they may have taken by the front office couldn’t have been as soul crushing as seeing one of their own highly compensated under performing players refuse to go down to the minors to increase the teams chances in 2010 and seeing the FO and ownership bail on them by not simply ditching Oliver Perez while there was still a chance.

After all they had to look at him lounging around the clubhouse everyday. Carlos at least left a lot of class, some good wishes and even a nose job behind, not to mention, maybe, just maybe…………something even better.

Your points are, of course , quite valid too. There are so many ways to look at the equation.

We both agree there is no way knowing how the season might have ended if things were handled differently. But I’m sure it would have ended in a much more positive note. Though not comparing the potential of this team to that of the ’69 miracle club, I will use 1968 as an example. Through late June the ’68 club had been playing at a pace that kept them just three games below .500 – an amazing feat for a team of mostly young and inexperienced players. But after flirting close to .500 the first half of the year, they also had a poor second half and finished 16 games below the break-even point and avoided finishing last (again) by just a half-game.

But the won-loss record was not significant because we all saw the potential with the sudden emergence of Koozman, Ryan, McAndrew to to along with rookie of the year Seaver, plus the emerging double play combination of Harrelson and Boswell and hopes that the horrible year for Agee was not indicative of a then two-year decline since winning the AL Rookie of the Year Award in 1966.

Nor did that poor second half dour the spirits or attitude of the players. As they took their lumps playing out the season, they still gained confidence in themselves, learned more about playing the game and developed an important winning attitude, not the losing one that Tom Seaver saw in the locker room his rookie season. Gil Hodges stuck with the kids but also relied heavily on 34 year old Ed Charles (the team co-leader in home runs) for his clubhouse leadership.

They were not a dispirited team which saw their efforts undermined by the front office. They entered 1969 with an extreme sense of confidence. This was not projecting itself as the first eastern division champion for even Gil admitted even as the team was inching itself closer to the Cubs in July that winning 85 games was a more realistic expectation and a stepping stone to real contention in 1970. I remember a lot of us getting worked up by the end of June with even Bob Brown, who did the pre and post game shows over WJRZ radio, telling fans to cool down their enthusiasm because this team was not going to win any division.

So that’s why IMHO, having left the team alone and retaining KRod and Beltran would have been more important in the long-term “rebuilding” than undermining and demoralizing it by getting Zach Wheeler. As others have mentioned, the team looks dead and I noticed on 30/30 that even David Wright had the more “you never know” attitude instead of saying we have a good ball club that’s going to surprise everybody. Even if he didn’t believe it inside, isn’t that what most say, at least in March, anyway?

Your point about the young kids walking away in October thinking they had proved something in themselves is correct – but how much of that focus is more on their own future than that of their team? That can lead to playing for one’s own self (i.e., Jose Reyes and others during their free agent years?) which makes for a group of individuals rather than a team. If the team falters for a few years waiting for the farm system to be the savior, those future hopefuls might very well find the likes of Davis, Murphy and others looking to move on to teams they feel have a chance of winning now – not further onto the future.

Might not also. But the foundation has already been set and doesn’t seem to be changing.

Good chatting as always,
Joe

We basically have half our everyday starters are first basemen and your comparing them to Utley, Rollins, Victorinno, Werth, Ruiz, and Howard. Please give me a break.

Don’t you realize those guys are very very good defensively (other than Howard) and they hit the **** out of the ball as well from 2007-2010.

Go position by position. 2012 Mets and 2007 Phills. Thole – Ruiz, Ike – Howard, Murphy -Utley, Tejada – Rollins, Wright – Polanco, Bay – Ibanez, Torres – Victorinno, Duda – Werth

Not even close right?

Best possible case scenario add in Kirk, Mejia, Valdespin, Harvey, Familia, in a year and we have a chance but the key will still be adding to them, not taking away from them.

1 – Not enough younger truly talented young players to form a true core!
Yeah no one like Davis, Murphy, Duda, Tejada, Kirk, Harvey, Havens, Mejia, Niese, Gee, and Familia around here…..You crowned Philly king for having 4 homegrowns in their core, we have 11 ELEVEN!!!!

2 – Most expensive guys all fit the parameters you suggest is good!
Only 5 or 6 did not and they w short contract guys! Not the Long term ones….Point two you keep saying but isn’t true!

3 – There are plenty but you keep saying they can’t be rushed up yet! We got plenty of Bench and had plenty of guys under control as Bench! Pridie, Evans, F-Mart lots of guys…Catcher is the only place where we were weak and after two years Sandy has done nothing about it either! Not a PEEP from you about that?

We will keep on going over this over and over again until you stop making statements that aren’t true!
And then I will be able to get rid of my Kid Macro that I have to use each time you BUILD FROM WITHIN folks claim we have none of what you want!

1) Not enough younger truly talented young players to form a true core who will be here for years to come and for new comers to fit into.

2) Too many older expensive players on their last deal

3) not enough younger team control year guys in support roles ie bench, bull pen and credible AAA depth.

Just too many baseball vagabonds and hobo’s shuffling through yet another city for another year or fat cats on too many 4-7 year deals many of whom are on what they already know will be their last deal.

Some of our truly worst years have been one;s primarially made up of older guys on their last legs such as 1993, 2002, 2003 and many prospects and draft choices were sacrificed in order to get this bad.

Tell us the names and events that led to them without using the word MIGHT, MAYBE, and FUTURE!

All you really have is a bunch of dots you keep throwing up and trying to make connections which aren’t connectuions just supposition and then clouding it all with what happened 19 years before Omar was in charge!

Yes I have heard you say that and I don’t feel your point is without merit. Not at all. I’m not sure how much more our guys could have done though as they were all fighting for their baseball lives or in their walk years. Excluding Bay perhaps so perhaps they got some of that residual benefit anyway. Not saying it is exactly the same thing but I think quite a few young guys walked off the field on October 1st having proven something to themselves.

Murphy, Tejada, Duda. Others may have determined they have a little more to do to get themselves fully established. Gee, Niese, Thole. All in all not a bad year for many of them aside from the unfortunate injury to Ike.

I’m a big believer in talent over everything else. Talent without will or smarts won’t get you far but will and smarts without talent isn’t taking you to the playoffs to often either.

The last time we got a potential starting pitcher that high in the draft (where Wheeler was taken, 1st rnd #6) was Phil Humber, the time before that was Paul Wilson, the time before that was Doc Gooden. That just shows me the level of risk involved and since I don’t see us drafting that early too often I think the risk was well worth it because one Doc Gooden can take you a long long way and you just don’t get the chance all that often.

Will he be Humber, Wilson, Gooden or someone else? Time will tell but he at least has a shot at being Gooden and if Harvey is too now you can start making moves that accentuate the present with a much better chance than we had being 7.5 GB with 6 teams to hurdle.

Anyone can actually, it’s very easy, just open your eyes.

That to me is UNwatchable. And it takes a lot longer to get out of there then the 2 or 3 watchable seasons that we did have.

Maybe I’m just more interested in having every season watchable, not just every 3rd or 4th one on average.

Another thing. I’m not sure if the Marlins will be giving us two of their best players anytime in the near future and in the last 23 years that’s been the only time we’ve actually been able to watch our team in the post season which is another thing I’m very interested in watching so I’m not sure that it’s safe to count on them again, do you?

Maybe we should consider getting our own elite talent level prospects without counting on the bad fortune of divisional rivals. Don’t you think?

Haven’t I been saying that even if the team faded in September, that winning the wildcard was not as important as it was the players building up confidence, maturity, experience and a winning attitude by finishing up with a winning record instead of stumbling miserably like it did? An 84-78 record would have gone a long way carrying momentum and confidence into this year.

So don’t look at it as winning the wildcard as it was being allowed to play their game and improve, showing front office support and not keeping the idea in the back of their minds that no matter how well they do, the front office is going to undercut what they are accomplishing.

That’s an essential ingredient to building a winner. It’s not so black and white as the team’s particular finish but how that finish was accomplished.

The NYY really didn’t win in the 80′s. After 1981 they never made the playoffs despite adding many a free agent. That’s what led to them having to rebuild.

Secondly I can’t see how we could be considered to be contending last year. 7.5 GB is not huge and 6 teams, depending on how far back isn’t impossible but the combination of the two things makes it an extreme long shot just to be standing at the wire.

I wonder if you can point to specific teams that made a successful climb to the playoffs after being behind 6 teams and 7.5 games.

Remember we had one route already blocked, SF AZ, Mil, Pitts and St. Louis had two routes. That further diminishes the chances wouldn’t you say?

Personally I thought it was incredibly lucky to have a chance to get Wheeler because the potential ace or #2 pitcher is the hardest thing to obtain. Look at what Philly and the NYY have had to do to get a couple. Drabeck, d’Anaurd, Montero. Some of the best prospects in the game at the time of the trade. To get a potential ace or #2 for the last two months of Carlos was more than we could have dreamed of.

Nothing we took would have made 2009 or 2010 better unless there is some ACE you think was there…
Got any?

Just because someone got taken later on doesn’t mean we would have taken them with the picks!
Because at the time they were not seemed worth taking in the 1st, if they were someonre else would have!

Name the Ace that was taken between our pick we gave away in 2006 and our 2nd rounder…
Chamberlain?
Tillman?

The problem is you think because we could have taken something that there WAS something good tio take!
But the truth is the guys that were there and rated at the top probably wanted more money than any were worth and what they would add was not as much as Wagner and Alou added to the years we got them!

Why isn’t that re-building pattern being followed today?

Exactly, TR.

A good blend of youngsters, players in their prime and key veterans does a team make. It can also be primary veterans with one or two good years left (as we saw with the 2006-8 Mets) but that means continued replenishing into the free agent market like Omar was doing (and the Yankees during the eighties, etc). It is rare that a sudden onslaught depending primarily on call-ups within a year of so of each other comes together and creates a winner (Tampa Bay, the ’69 Mets, etc.). There has to be a blend, a mix.

The Mets had that blend last year and were a joy to watch. And they were doing it without the help of the near dozen bargain basement players obtained over the winter – not to mention doing it with the loss of Ike Davis and no Santana, plus lengthy injury to Wright. Still, it was dismantled under the guise of “re-building”, a business smokescreen to justify the dumping of contracts due to the Wilpons’ catastrophic financial troubles (a big market team is not going to go broke due to an overpaid roster). One does not break up a contending team to get a highly rated prospect – they usually try to add on a missing piece to get it better (but not at the price of sacrificing the future). And they could have continued with a nice blend this coming season but obviously didn’t.

If fans want to say that the Wilpons were in bad financial straits and thus they had no choice but to dump Krod and Beltran (and eventually not try to re-sign Reyes) I will agree with them 100 percent. But those who want to justify these moves, especially in the case of Wheeler, as a baseball decision necessary for “rebuilding” a team that was going nowhere in the years ahead, and thus obtaining players like Torres, Rauch (or the group we got last year) just as fill ins till the youth comes aboard – that is simply looking at things wearing blinders. A lot of that youth is already on the club and was last year already showing signs of sprouting it’s wings.

You know perfectly well that we could have drafted anyone, not just whoever the Giants or whoever took. You also know our former GM’s perceived strength was in young talent evaluation so why would you think he would do worse than Sabean and Barr (for example) ?

Secondly those prospects while in your system, even if they wind up not succeeding in the Majors are still useful assets while their in A-, A+ and AA.

How do you think the Phillies got Blanton, Lee, Oswalt and Halliday or are you of the opinion that everyone they traded for those guys is going to make it?

News flash! Some of them won’t and yet the Phillies still got value from them.

Anyone worth mentioning?

The vast majority of them were trades for guys for 1-3 years or FA’s on 1-2 year deals.

A few of these moves were for longer periods of time like Boggs, Tino, Sheffield, possibly O’Neil but by signing them it didn’t inhibit the rebuild or the continuation of the rebuild one iota.

Only Giambi cost a single pick and it was an era of players lasting a long long time as well and most guys were 28 or 29 with 1 or 2 years left on their deals and then re extended with many of those guys going year to year.

No fat cats brought in on brand new 5 year deals like Bay starting at age 31.

Tag is trying to say that you should not sign guys who are past their prime!
And he suggested the Yankees didn’t but I was just showing him that they did and did it plenty!

This is a notion he came about by analyzing 25 years and using that to cite Omar’s mistakes…
But what he fails to realize is that the Acquisitions Omar made and he trashes as MONKEYBALL consisted on precisely what he says is the way to go:

Beltran 28
Castillo 31
Perez 25
Green 33
Martinez 33
Church 29
Santana 29
K-Rod 27
Francouer 25
Bay 31

All fit HIS concept for what to sign more than his concept of what Omars mistake was.

Only ones who don’t fit are:
Alou 40
Delgado 34
Lo Duca 34
Wagner 34
Glavine 37
Hernandez 40-50 depending on who you believe! LOL

And out of that group Alou is about the only one you can say was not worth having if you wish to dismiss his 2006 contributions and only focus on 2007!

The picks they cost us netted the teams who got them NOTHING!

So tags assertion that only getting players in their prime (as defined by him <34 Years old) really is not correct!
The Majority of signings were in the age group he suggests, there were more failures and the majority of money went to the age group he suggests it should than in the 34+ list

And he says this because of his 25 year dissertation of why the Mets suck, and the reason he goes back to 25 years is precisely because what he is trying to say should be done WAS DONE while Omar was here and he needed those extra 19 years to hide that fact!