27
2012
Fear Factor: Mets Bench Scares Nobody?
An article by 
So what do you make of a Mets bench that includes Mike Nickeas, Mike Baxter, Justin Turner, Scott Hairston and Ronny Cedeno? It doesn’t exactly strike fear in the hearts and minds of opposing pitchers, does it?
Well on that note, check this out from Adam Rubin at ESPN NY:
A Mets official said Monday there is concern about the lack of feared hitters on the team’s bench. The official said the Mets will be searching the last week of spring training for upgrades once players are cut loose from other camps — particularly because of the $100,000 retention bonus required to keep certain players with major league experience on minor league contracts who will not make the Opening Day roster.
I keep forgetting about this new rule and this supposed crop of free agents that are going to suddenly be available in the next week or so. But honestly, will something become available that is that much better than Justin Turner or Scott Hairston?
And if they do, are they the ones being replaced?
I would imagine Mike Baxter would be on the bubble…
What about Nickeas? Is his spot as the backup to Thole safe?
I think we could have done a better job this offseason in a few areas, even with the limited funds. There were some nice bench options that went real cheap.
Do you think we could have done different things with the same dollars? How would you have played it? Think about that…
Anyway, I’m having another procedure today, this time on my heart. See you on the other side.
LGM
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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Again, this team might hit 280 and have a high OBP as a team, but the lack of power hitters in the roster makes it tougher for the team to score runs.. last year we had a good BA as a team and one of the highest OBP yet we were not scoring many runs due to lack of power threat in the lineup.. for you the mets to score 3 runs they needed to piece together 4 and 5 hits in a inning, which in major league is very difficult.. Now with the new dimensions and a healthy ike and if duda keeps progressing we can have 2 legitimate HR threat in the lineup, but it remains to be seen. other than those 2 everyone else is either a line drive type player or a singles hitter.. Ohh, and NO SPEED on the team either… So the runs will be hard to come by unless Duda and Davis become MVP’s type players for this team, the reason why i don’t mention wright it’s because of his bad back, that can put a strain on his HR power and speed as well.. But let’s hope he along with everyone stays relative healthy this year..
power they should have. Much more so than last year.
davis and Duda are legitimate big power guys that can hit long HRs. And if wright is healthy, he is proven to be an upper 20s guy (as recently as 2010). Heck, he hit what, 14 last year in an abbreviated season, playing much of it with a broken back.
Bay of course is the wildcard. Most likely he remains shot. But Murphy can hit double digits at least.
anyway, I agree that team speed is lacking, but not worried about power or the long ball this year.
I am going to venture that you will have 3 guys hit between 20-30 HR in Wright, Duda, Davis and then 15-20 with Murphy and Bay. Again, that is assuming the new walls add a few to the totals and these guys have healthy full seasons.
very reasonable. And wright, davis and Duda would have been good for 20+ with the old walls.
Might be shooting high on Murphy, and Bay while that should be a no brainer (and an off year!) don’t bet the farm on it.
Actually , if they get bay in a platoon by 7/1 (if not sooner) with someone like Kirk that has some pop, then the duo will break 20 also.
Even as bad as Bay was last year if you give him a full season of AB’s he still would have been in the 15-20 range. I suspect that the shorter fences will add a few more so I predict about 18 for Bay.
Also with Muprhy, he did manage 12 in 2009 so I could see with regular playing time him getting 15.
Even Torres hit 16 two years ago in SF of all places! And his home/away of 7/9 makes it even more impressive. He’s very capable of hitting double-digits. The Mets probably have double-digit power numbers 1-6 until they hit Thole at 7. Power is definitely not the issue, provided everyone’s healthy.
He had 18 HRs in 910 PAs as a Met the last 2 years. I’m not predisposed to taking the over.
12 in 400 PAs last year, so I guess 15 is doable, but I don’t think he is gatting many more PAs than that anyway.
I don’t think power will be an issue, speed maybe. I don’t want to see them become a station to station team but with Davis, Duda, Wright, Bay and shorter fences there should be more power than we have had the last few years. Honestly I can’t see the offense being a problem. The pitching and defense, who heck knows?
just the way the piece was written, it seems to be focused on that “big bopper” to come off the bench capable of jacking a HR. Like what the Phils expect out of Thome.
Mets have a few guys that can hit some here and there (Hairston had a few) but not that type of guy, but they should have a few legitimate options for getting a hit at least.
Hey, I got a big name power hitter for the bench. Jason Bay. And if the glove is a train wreck, Murphy. For bay, that is also the beauty of a platoon, you end up with a better guy (albeit with large splits) on the bench too.
I actually think Murphy would be a fantastic bench/utility guy if they end up going with a stronger overall player at 2B.
I just don’t think this Mets team can afford to have Murphy on the bench most days. Even if he was a utility guy they would have to find a way for him to get 400 PA.
I agree completely Stick. Murphy would be a terrific utility/PH. That’s really what’s wrong with our bench is that our bench guys are starting in Murph, Thole and Torres. Hell even Tejada could be considered one of the rotation at 2B and SS. That would be one hell of a bench. One you’d look forward to seeing a starter get a day here and there but on the Mets their full time everyday starters.
We need some all around complete ballplayers to put our bench guys where they belong.
I do think that the plan as for Torres to be a place holder until an internal option (Kirk) was ready, at which time he would become the 4th OF. And on this team, a LH 4th OF should get a lot of work (starting for bay, and some defensive replacement time for Duda).
Murphy was great off the bench, but until his glove loses him the 2B job (if it does) and another option is ready (Valdy or havens) it won’t happen.
Torres, hairston, Murphy and MI guy doesn’t look at all shabby.
Most of you are ASSUMING we’ll get that type of production, remember guys, our focus more than anything was to be less aggresive and more patient to improve our OBP, which is the focus of the org. that takes away the agresiveness of a hitter, I don’t think we’ll have more than 3 mets with 25+ hr’s. hell, i don’t even think wright will get to 20, either because of his back issues or because he’ll be traded midway.. I don’t see this team having the power #’s most of you are predicting, but i wish i am wrong and you guys are right..
I wonder if Jose is upset that we “changed” our focus to OBP? Considering he posted a career high last year in his contract year? OBP isn’t just about getting walks, it’s about getting YOUR pitch to hit.
You see? See how you harp on jose reyes without me saying anything about him? That is why you’re pathetic, you’re one of those who always keep the “i’m not bias” comment flowing so people would buy it, but knowing you from back then you never fooled me, you didn’t like reyes then because he interfere with the succes of your choker boy Dwright, i am sure you were dancing around when he signed with the marlins because it gave your boy the chance to be franchise player right? Must you take a shot a reyes when ACTUAL MET players posed a high OBP? am i wrong in saying that’s the focus of the front office? You’re the one who keeps telling people that he’s on another team to not talk about him yet you take a shot at him because i made a simple comment about the front office? a REALITY based on what we’ve seen? you see why i am starting to see how much of an AS***** you are?!?
Just to let you know, in 2008 posted a 297 BA and a 358 OBP, making it 61 points over his BA, last year he hit 337 with an OBP of 384, only 47 Points ahead of his avg..
But you have no clue what focusing on OBP even means. It’s not going to the plate and looking for a walk. It’s about pitch recognition and hitting the pitches you CAN hit and laying off the ones you can’t. So to say that focusing on a higher OBP would lower your HR rate would be foolish and contradict the very premise of the focus.
As to my point on Reyes, do you give NO credit to the Mets new approach to him having a career year?
I wouldn’t think that a new hitting coach would make such a big difference in one season for an 8 year veteran like Jose but who knows? The biggest difference I noticed was Jose not reaching for that soft stuff on top of his front foot and popping it up in the infield.
That’s what a more patient disciplined approach gets you. More balls, better counts to hit in and more pitches to drive.
I think that along with the contract year allowed Reyes to focus more on what HE needed to do to become more successful. Sorry but to go from a .321 OBP the year before with absolutely no patience at the plate and saying he doesn’t need it to having a .384 OBP you have to give the current staff some of the credit.
Could be TRS. Didn’t hurt that it was a constant focus of the coaches either or saw the results of some other players and it certainly didn’t hurt that he wasn’t in a lineup of so many grip it and rip it guys with low OB and tons of strikeouts like the year before.
Even if Reyes wasn’t influenced by Hudgens the environment alone that he was in would have helped and there’s now way of knowing that Hudgens didn’t work with him on that issue.
BA is going to be higher when you are in hitters counts. 2-1 vs 1-2 is a huge difference. And that is the point about preaching plate discipline, and recognition.
Instead of hacking at a pitchers pitch early (like a breaking ball in the dirt), let it go. Put the pitcher in a hole, and they have to come in with a strike. That would be the hitters pitch that you crush.
It does not mean be passive, take fat pitches hoping to walk. that would be Luis Castillo, an outlier. And if you get a BP FB on the first pitch, certainly tee off.
But, if the pitcher won’t give in and throw a pitch you can drive, take the walk and keep the line moving, because not making an out is always better than making one. That is what they are trying to do (covert outs to OB), not converting hits to walks.
Best explanation I’ve seen yet.
It’s less about being passive and more about not being gullible and goes right to the heart of Ted Williams Science of hitting.
If pitchers could get you to get yourself out by rolling the ball under the plate that’s what they would do. You’d never even see a strike.
You can’t just have one blanket approach for everybody in the organization and what you’re talking about is exactly that. It looks good in type, theoretically, but in real life each player is different and you can’t make everybody play the same way.
Among the many things you’re forgetting is that sometimes depending on the game situation you have to swing at a pitch out of the strike zone,especially one that’s fairly close, in order to make contact. If the hitter following you is in a slump, weak, etc. and the winning run is on 3rd or there’s a runner you want to move from 2nd to 3rd – in order to WIN the game (and that’s a word the new breed doesn’t like) you may have to made a productive out.
Yes productive outs exist and sometimes it’s better to go out of your way to make contact than just sit back and let the next guy do it.
And the “sit back and let the next guy do it” philosophy permeates this organization like a virus from the front office down to the batter’s box.
And also there are some good hitters who are just bad ball hitters, it is there success, and NOTHING you do can change that.
Leave the coaching to the hitting coach and let him work with each individual player on a case by case basis. It should NOT be an organizational-wide philosophy – That’s just LAZY. Even Keith Hernandez early last year said he did not like this new philosophy and he’s right.
every team has an organizational philosophy. And they should, and teach a way of playing from the lowest levels.
And to put it in simple terms, this really is “don’t swing at crap you can’t hit”.
But of course each player is different and treated as such. And game circumstances dictate what you do in an AB. That is basic situational hitting.
and most of the time, the guys that have a terrible overall approach (hacking at anything a pitcher throws) are the same guys that are useless situationally (such as swinging for the fences with the winning run on 3rd and 1 out).
What you’re talking about should NOT be an “organizational philosophy”. Now if you want to hire a hitting coach with that philosophy that’s another story. Just like during Howard Johnson’s last season as batting coach here plenty of people here including myself were clamoring for a new hitting coach. And that had nothing to do with anybody’s “philosophy”, it was just a baseball reaction as old as baseball itself. These Mets needed a hitting coach who would help them be more patient. Maybe during another team that would not be the type of hitting coach the Mets needed – but it was in this case. So it should NOT be a company-wide philosophy.
And I guess I can say all organizations have a philosophy although you have no proof of that and neither do it.
You know what this organizational philosophy should be?
– playing hard, sliding hard, being aggressive on the field AND at the plate
- The “philosophy” right down to the minors should be aggressiveness, controlled aggressiveness, doing what you can to WIN games, playing outstanding DEFENSE
Putting the emphasis and playing hard, running hard, playing SMART and making smart decisions on the field should be the philosophy, not wasting everybody’s time trying to make all hitter’s the same. The latter has nothing to do with creating a culture of winning but the other stuff i laid out does. Ask George Steinbrenner – you know what his “organizational philosophy” was? Winning..and winning at ALL costs
See below, that IS this hitting coach’s philosophy. Be aggressive on YOUR pitch.
““Hunt your pitch,” he tells his players.
“We want to do damage in the middle of the plate.”
Does that sound like a guy who is only focused on the walk?
An awful lot of Steinbrenners actual decisions hurt the cause of winning. The list of prospects that became tremendous players he gave up for retreads was off the charts. It really wasn’t until he was out of everyone’s hair that the Yankees were able to advance a plan of sustained excellence and get away from the year by year plan that lead to 13 consecutive seasons without winning.
That’s what has led to 16 postseasons in 17 years.
I don’t know how you can say winning two making three WS plus one more playoff appearance as hurt losing!
Truth is until 1990 (.414 that year when he was suspended in July and after the amateur draft) they only had TWO sub .500 seasons before that! The year before 1989 .460 and 1982 .488!
This rebuild you talk about fixing them led to the following:
1990 .414
1991 .438
1992 .469
1990 they got Carl Everett (10th overall) lost him to expansion Got Pettite in 22nd Posada 24th – George was still there!
1992 They got Jeter 6th Overall
Williams they signed IFA in 1985 when George was still in charge!
So Hardly ANY of that core you say was built while George was gone was actually gotten while George was gone!
It happened pretty much at the same time!
In 1990 they got 14 MLB players – george was involved!
in 1991 they got all of 3 MLB players in that entire draft! (I wish my brother george was here!)
in 1992 they got all of 5 MLB players in that entire draft Jeter only one worth a damn!
in 1993 they got all of 4 MLB players Then george comes back!
So this assertion that George missing helped them to build a winner is plain utter revisionitst history!
All they got while he was gone was Jeter and it took a top 10 pick plus 194 other picks to get it!
Yeah they were so smart about rebuilding while George was away!
PHOEY!
Part of the Yankees offensive philosophy is working counts to get the starters pitch count elevated so they can get him out of the game in the middle innings and do damage to the weaker bullpen arms. It works well for them. Redsox too.
Steinbrenner was suspended in 1990. He probably trades those kids for washed up allstars if he’s not suspended. He already had trade talks brewing for Pettite, Bernie and Mariano but finally deferred to Stick Micheal who pleade with him not to do it.
JULY of 1990 One month after they took Pettite so I don’t see where this trade talk comes from it’s just more made up crap!
The NYY’s were on that treadmill of trading prospects for older PT/Platoon/DH type guys to fix deffencies in their lineup for a while Metsie.
Doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have traded Pettite 2-3 years later or that they wouldn’t have at all. Just that thats the way they were going about about their business back then.
Had Steinbrenner stayed anythings possible except Jeter and he wouldn’t have been enough even with all the money in the world.
1995-the present could have been known as the Jeter years just like 1982-1995 were the Mattingly one’s and the 60′s the Horace Clark years. meaning essentially no playoffs.
Well tag all I can nsay is Steinbrenner was only gone two years and they didn’t trade pettite and didn’t get him or Posada while George was gone.
It was loosing wholesale that got them their one good pick in 1992! (jeter)
The rest were all from the last draft George was there for!
Sure they had a habit of trading kids for all stars and it resuklted in three WS appearances, two wins, one more playoff and slew of .500+ seasons…
George didn’t stop the winning it stopped as all good cycles do as it will once they lose Jeter and Rivera soon enough.
Its what I keep trying to get accross to you in the 25 year history subject.
baseball winning and losing is cyclical!
You win for a little while and how long that while lasts depends on how good you are at still getting talent without the benefit of top picks, Who comes available in FA and a little bit of luck!
Stability in coaching is also VERY important and that is something that we have never had here but the Yankees have even WITH George firing people left and right!
Their best run was under Torre (12 Years!),
Atlantas was 20 years PLUS because Cox was also the GM before he managed them!
Manuel has been in Philly for 7 years now!
WHo was the last Met manager to manage that long?
Who was the last GM to last that long?
It is a product of where we play and a voracious opinionated media that kills us!
And if you really want to know the truth Geroge’s genius was in fooling everyone to focus their hate on HIM so his people could do the job they did under the radar!
Any move that proved bad was blamed on him!
Leaving Michaels and Cashmen out of the firing line and media scrutiny!
All they had to deal with was George and that made them make sure they did a good job as well! Just to not have to deal with him!
Wells is kind of the Mickey Lolich of his day. Proof of just how long and well a poorly conditioned (in the normal sense) a pitcher can be and still be damn effective even into his mid 30′s because the skills needed to pitch don’t disappear like the skills needed to play 2B, SS or CF or just the everyday grind of playing any position.
Different standards apply to pitchers than position players and different standards again to Wells himself.
My comment is hung up in moderation but the short version is of all those guys only Giambi cost draft pick. That’s it.
The vast majority of them were trades for guys for 1-3 years or FA’s on 1-2 year deals.
A few of these moves were for longer periods of time like Boggs, Tino, Sheffield, possibly O’Neil but by signing them it didn’t inhibit the rebuild or the continuation of the rebuild one iota.
Only Giambi cost a single pick and it was an era of players lasting a long long time as well and most guys were 28 or 29 with 1 or 2 years left on their deals and then re extended with many of those guys going year to year.
No fat cats brought in on brand new 5 year deals like Bay starting at age 31.
And who did the teams that got those picks from us get in return?
Anyone worth mentioning?
Metsie your a lot brighter than that.
You know perfectly well that we could have drafted anyone, not just whoever the Giants or whoever took. You also know our former GM’s perceived strength was in young talent evaluation so why would you think he would do worse than Sabean and Barr (for example) ?
Secondly those prospects while in your system, even if they wind up not succeeding in the Majors are still useful assets while their in A-, A+ and AA.
How do you think the Phillies got Blanton, Lee, Oswalt and Halliday or are you of the opinion that everyone they traded for those guys is going to make it?
News flash! Some of them won’t and yet the Phillies still got value from them.
sure and we could have busted just as much as the teams who got the picks!
Point is we didn’t we got something that made 2006-2008 worth watching!
Nothing we took would have made 2009 or 2010 better unless there is some ACE you think was there…
Got any?
Just because someone got taken later on doesn’t mean we would have taken them with the picks!
Because at the time they were not seemed worth taking in the 1st, if they were someonre else would have!
Name the Ace that was taken between our pick we gave away in 2006 and our 2nd rounder…
Chamberlain?
Tillman?
The problem is you think because we could have taken something that there WAS something good tio take!
But the truth is the guys that were there and rated at the top probably wanted more money than any were worth and what they would add was not as much as Wagner and Alou added to the years we got them!
Maybe the difference is that I can connect the dots. I can see how the quick fix bleads right into 66-72 win seasons. Even 59 win seasons if you can imagine.
Anyone can actually, it’s very easy, just open your eyes.
That to me is UNwatchable. And it takes a lot longer to get out of there then the 2 or 3 watchable seasons that we did have.
Maybe I’m just more interested in having every season watchable, not just every 3rd or 4th one on average.
Another thing. I’m not sure if the Marlins will be giving us two of their best players anytime in the near future and in the last 23 years that’s been the only time we’ve actually been able to watch our team in the post season which is another thing I’m very interested in watching so I’m not sure that it’s safe to count on them again, do you?
Maybe we should consider getting our own elite talent level prospects without counting on the bad fortune of divisional rivals. Don’t you think?
Well then connect them here…
Tell us the names and events that led to them without using the word MIGHT, MAYBE, and FUTURE!
All you really have is a bunch of dots you keep throwing up and trying to make connections which aren’t connectuions just supposition and then clouding it all with what happened 19 years before Omar was in charge!
We’ve been through this before Metsie.
1) Not enough younger truly talented young players to form a true core who will be here for years to come and for new comers to fit into.
2) Too many older expensive players on their last deal
3) not enough younger team control year guys in support roles ie bench, bull pen and credible AAA depth.
Just too many baseball vagabonds and hobo’s shuffling through yet another city for another year or fat cats on too many 4-7 year deals many of whom are on what they already know will be their last deal.
Some of our truly worst years have been one;s primarially made up of older guys on their last legs such as 1993, 2002, 2003 and many prospects and draft choices were sacrificed in order to get this bad.
yes we have because you keep making the SAME false statements time and time again!
1 – Not enough younger truly talented young players to form a true core!
Yeah no one like Davis, Murphy, Duda, Tejada, Kirk, Harvey, Havens, Mejia, Niese, Gee, and Familia around here…..You crowned Philly king for having 4 homegrowns in their core, we have 11 ELEVEN!!!!
2 – Most expensive guys all fit the parameters you suggest is good!
Only 5 or 6 did not and they w short contract guys! Not the Long term ones….Point two you keep saying but isn’t true!
3 – There are plenty but you keep saying they can’t be rushed up yet! We got plenty of Bench and had plenty of guys under control as Bench! Pridie, Evans, F-Mart lots of guys…Catcher is the only place where we were weak and after two years Sandy has done nothing about it either! Not a PEEP from you about that?
We will keep on going over this over and over again until you stop making statements that aren’t true!
And then I will be able to get rid of my Kid Macro that I have to use each time you BUILD FROM WITHIN folks claim we have none of what you want!
Your counting guys that aren’t even here, are injured, incomplete or defensive liabilities and comparing them to Rollins, Utley, Howard, Hamels, Ruiz, Victorinno. That’s 6 by the way. Plus we don’t even have a catcher and no chance of getting one anytime soon.
We basically have half our everyday starters are first basemen and your comparing them to Utley, Rollins, Victorinno, Werth, Ruiz, and Howard. Please give me a break.
Don’t you realize those guys are very very good defensively (other than Howard) and they hit the **** out of the ball as well from 2007-2010.
Go position by position. 2012 Mets and 2007 Phills. Thole – Ruiz, Ike – Howard, Murphy -Utley, Tejada – Rollins, Wright – Polanco, Bay – Ibanez, Torres – Victorinno, Duda – Werth
Not even close right?
Best possible case scenario add in Kirk, Mejia, Valdespin, Harvey, Familia, in a year and we have a chance but the key will still be adding to them, not taking away from them.
Oh Really? Nimmo and Wheeler are here?
You just used them two posts ago to say something about what is better these days now that Sandy is here!
“In 2011, for example, Hudgens gave succinct instructions to free-swinging shortstop Jose Reyes: Don’t chase high fastballs or breaking balls in the dirt. Blessed by mostly good health, good luck and his own freakish athleticism, Reyes recorded the highest OBP of his career, getting on base at a .384 clip. He did not do so by taking walks. He attacked fastballs.”
Good quote TRS, I hadn’t seen that before.
Thanks. Makes you wonder how things might have been different if Hudgens had been here instead of Hojo.
Plate discipline is even more important for a high contact hitter who doesn’t strikeout much like Reyes because making contact with the kinds of stuff he frequently did resulted in weak contact whereas a swing a miss by a lesser contact guy would at least result in another chance in that AB (assuming it wasn’t on a 2 strike count) even though it may have been in a pitchers count at least the chance of a mistake still would exist.
LOL was it his OBP he increased or was it his BA which was also the highest BA of his career?
This is why you OBP guys keep failing to make your case!
IF what you say is the goal of OBP is true it’s MUCH TRUER for the BA than the OBP!
The focus is NOT actually the OBP it is the BA and OBP merely follows that increase in BA!
But god forbid OBP should play second fiddle to BA in your theory!
It would be blasphemy of any moneyballer to make such a claim or even suggest it!
Everything you just said focus’ on increase BA which as a sidebar increases the OBP!
The focus is better HITTING not better OBP because OBP is not about HITTING it’s about being on base HOW you get there is the focus of the increase and Hudgens is working on increasing OB by increasing BA not increasing BA by increasing OB!
You guys have it all ass backwards!
the actual purpose is to make less outs. And again, you confuse OBP with walks. The hitting coach, and OBP philosophy in general, doesn’t care (actually probably prefers) to get hits instead of walks.
why is it is so hard to understand? Get on base is good, making fewer outs is good, and hitters do better when ahead in the count.
simplify it to the mantra every player heard in little league: “Stop swinging at crap!”
Stick you’re talking about the very first, the very early learning stages of baseball. It’s time to move on. You’re talking about stuff teams talked about since the beginning of time.
Again, this “NEW” philosophy is actually taking a step backwards in development.
Again, the organizational philosophy should be about WINNING, playing hard, playing SMART, running hard and being AGGRESSIVE.
As for the individual stuff – what you are talking about – you leave that to the coaches for players on a case by case basis and stop wasting time with ridiculous talk like “outs are bad, getting on base is good’
EVERYBODY in the history of baseball, even those with a passing interest already know that.
There are lot of OUTS that win games too. Let’s keep the philosophy about WINNING.
Nobody likes to talk about those things anymore.
How do they focus on making less outs?
BY GETTING MORE HITS! BETTER BA!
If it’s not about Walks then it really is about BA not OBP!
BA is about everything that is NOT a walk or a HBP!
A point seemingly lost on the OBP crowd!
I AM juSt CUriOUs buT wHY whEn We ArE acTuallY diScusSing baseBalL dO YOu hAVe to TYpe LIke THiS?
Now back to your point. You really don’t understand that the philosophy is designed to increase hits and walks which is a byproduct of focusing on OBP. Get the count to a hitters count, swing at your pitch only and if they don’t give it then take the walk. Not hard to understand the philosophy.
Yeah TRS and that approach goes way back to LL, Legion, HS and Ted Williams. Nothing new about it at all.
That more selective approach did start to get lost a little during the steroid era along with an emphasis on defense, hit and run, SB’s because of risk/reward and the higher overall SLG of that era.
Now things are being reinvented back to the way they’ve always been. Nothing new about it at all.
“Again, the organizational philosophy should be about WINNING, playing hard, playing SMART, running hard and being AGGRESSIVE”
that is the stuff you learn on day 1 of Tee ball, before they get to “don’t swing at crap” (since that doesn’t apply until there is live pitching).
LOL, very true Stick.
Isn’t the foundation of playing smart “don’t swing at crap”?
That and “get your head out of your ass”:
no sorry but nice attempt at keeping up stick
The first day of t-ball is…..T-ball
If you’ll notice when watching games, players are not hustling, half assed slides, not playing smart, looking over their heads while rounding 3B, not picking up their coaches, LOOKING at the catcher while stealing.
It’s time to put the emphasis back on how to play the game and not make organizational philosophies about making everybody do the same thing. You can’t and you shouldn’t. And as a Mets fan, if you need to be reminded of all the times the Mets have left runners in scoring position and not being able to deliver big hits in the big spots – if you haven’t learned – what important..instead of laying down and just playing follow the leader of the new Gm..then i guess it’s going to take a few more seasons of….. playing STUPID, making dumb baserunning mistakes, not hustling out ground balls, looking back over your shoulder while the 3B coach send you home…for you to maybe learn your lesson
funny, before this year there was never so much talk about “OBP”
Sure there were up and down years hitting as a club and we all knew that Hojo had to be replaced. But before that this stupid, and I DO mean stupid talk never existed.
The problem was always getting the runners in in big spots to win games. Can’t wait to see the Mets leave runners in scoring position – AGAIN – this year for these people to just sit and stare at it. Runners being left on base.
A lot of wasting time talking about a philosophy that was never the main issue of this team. But i can think of many other “infamous moments” in Mets history that have changed their destiny to talk about. OBP is not one of them
” Playing STUPID, making dumb baserunning mistakes, not hustling out ground balls, looking back over your shoulder while the 3B coach send you home…for you to maybe learn your lesson”.
That’s been going on here long before this GM got here and there’s no reason why these issues can’t be addressed and at the same time preach better plate discipline.
why? Because it annoys you!
Sandy’s first week in office: “As GM our organization philosophy will be to play the game the wrong way. No situational hitting, don’t throw to the cutoff man, and above all when you slide only use one half of your ass. If we can do this we will break the 1962 record for most loses, LGM!!!”.
Well it’s not the current FO’s philosophy that failed in the 2007 or 2008 pennant races, they weren’t even here. Offense wasn’t the problem with those teams anyway as both of them had very high OB. Those teams failed because they couldn’t keep anyone off the bases.
LMAO. Only half of it though.
‘“As GM our organization philosophy will be to play the game the wrong way. No situational hitting, don’t throw to the cutoff man, and above all when you slide only use one half of your ass.”
LOL…You forgot to add: ‘And we don’t ever want to Win, under any circumstance’.
Sometimes ACTIONS speak louder than words, and his actions are letting us know that that’s exactly what he’s thinking.. 2 lousy offseason, poor handling of the reyes negotiations, trading away 2 all stars for aNOTHING in return but a single A pitcher.. You tell me then what GM will win like that!? keep defending that arrogant as***** of a GM while we keep losing games…
Win? Who wants to win, I just want to put all that money that we are not spending (you know the money that doesn’t exist) in my pocket just so we can’t win.
No Gary he didn’t say that, but he did say he was going to build with a long term sustainable view and to date can you name one long term player acquired aside from Wheeler?
Are any of our signings for the long term?
Did we not even have a draft last year?
More or less what Frank Cashen did when he got here. Both of them have a similar background as well.
“The problem was always getting the runners in in big spots to win games. Can’t wait to see the Mets leave runners in scoring position – AGAIN – this year for these people to just sit and stare at it. Runners being left on base.” — Bayonne
Bayonne, only one team scored more runs with runners in scoring position than the Mets last year, the world champion Cardinals. and only three teams hit for better average with runners in scoring position than the Mets.
Oh yeah, and the Mets scored the most runs in the league with runners in scoring position and two outs. and only two teams hit for better average with runners in scoring position and two outs, the world champs and the phillies.
Probably because they all had better plate discipline in those spots so they were getting their pitch to hit more often by getting into favorable counts, Metsie.
Those are excellent points Chris. The whole team showed a much better approach and plate discipline than they did the year before. Most of the season they led the NL hitting with 2 out and RISP and 2 out runs scored. The amazing part is they did most of that with a makeshift lineup. That hopefully continues with a full season from Ike, a healthier Wright and continued developement of Duda. I have no idea what to make of Bay, but I think the offense should be good enough to compete. It’s the pitching and defense that worries me.
Probably the Cards and Phlllies being much better teams had something to do with it too.
Wow, everybody can now talk about “plate discipline” must be something new and special and makes you really know your baseball saying the words “plate discipline”. It’s en vogue now.
Yep, plate discipline. That’s the secret EVERYBODY is talking about – plate discipline and the Cardinals and Phillies were better than the Mets offensively because of….plate discipline.
Plate Discipline. Aha, now i know how it works.
Plate Discipline
I know the Mets went on a giant scoring spree the days immediately following Beltran’s departure but has anyone compiled the amount of runs the Mets scored after that time? While the loss of Beltran might have been replaced by the bat of Duda, I still dream of what the scoring might have been with both those bats together and Murphy not having been injured. Enough perhaps to overcome our pitching woes? On MLB’s 30/30 it was all agreed that the Mets need to score a lot of runs to make up for the pitching weakness.
it’s plate discipline Joey,
I think that guy Chris is on to something, now all of us sitting here at home know the secret!
Plate discipline. That’s what wins championships and that’s why the Cards and Phils beat the Mets out – their plate discipline was better than ours. Whodda thought that they were even better teams?!
plate discipline….
Mets scored 4.4 runs a game with Beltran and 4.4 without him.
So does that mean they would’ve scored more than 4.4 if he were still with them? Or maybe it could be even less than 4.4 with him still because the games could mean more therefore leading to stronger competition and better pitched games.
And also there’s a matter of the competition faced too. But stats like that are good something – conversation.
It means they scored 4.4 runs per game with Beltran and 4.4 runs per game without him. I answered Joey’s question. You can speculate on fantasy scenarios all you want, like what they would have done with them, or what Wright would net in a trade. But unless you have anything with substance to add, you can go back to your corner now.
and i guess since the bullpen fell apart once K-Rod is gone it would be a fantasy to envision a better bullpen if he stayed. I raised fair questions buddy unless you expect everybody to take that stat at face value.
Now let’s get back to your recent revelation that you’re this site’s number one Tejada supporter. Does Des know this? You and him are close, right? I kind of associate you two story-tellers together
Cone, Clemens and Wells are pitchers. They operate much more independently than than your everyday starters. They also have a different athletic skill set. A skill set that allows those who avoid or return from elbow and shoulder injuries to survive and thrive. With pitchers you see a large number who are finished after 6 years and an equally large number who maintain or even increase their dominance into their mid 30′s.
Position players peaks run from 23-31 or 32 with the peak peak being 26-30 and only a small number extending beyond 32 and an almost none getting better after 32, unlike pitchers of which many have actually gotten better after 32.
Obviously this doesn’t hold true during the steroid era but before and after there have been many pitchers who maintained or set new career highs for themselves in their mid 30′s.
Position players not any where close in numbers as pitchers.
Are you saying Wells was not a fine specimen of an athlete?
LOL TRS….Yeah Wellls was a true adonis wasn’t he?
Tag – So now your already creating EXCEPTIONS to the RULE you tried to make?
Ok They are pitchers, They were also FAs who were not in their prime but just for argument sake lets see the exceptions you will create for the following…
Wade Boggs
Mike Stanley
Mariano Duncan
Cecil Fielder
Tim Raines
Chilli Davis
Daryl Strawberry
David Justice
Paul Oniel
Scott Brosius
Robin Ventura
Gary Sheffield
Ruben Sierra
Kenny Lofton
John Olerud
Tino Martinez
Jason Giambi
Hidecki Matsui
Curious but I think I am lost in the debate here. Are we saying that you don’t need veterans to add to your core of homegrown players? Are we saying that you can do it all through FA? Again, it seems the answer lies right in the middle. Develop that core of 4-5 young players that are under control and price advantage to the team, then go out and get guys that fit those guys to surround them either by trade or FA making sure that you don’t go too far one way with those by only bringing in expensive FA on the downside of their careers.
Well TRS I am saying you do and that signing those guys FA is required for proper team construction…
Tag is trying to say that you should not sign guys who are past their prime!
And he suggested the Yankees didn’t but I was just showing him that they did and did it plenty!
This is a notion he came about by analyzing 25 years and using that to cite Omar’s mistakes…
But what he fails to realize is that the Acquisitions Omar made and he trashes as MONKEYBALL consisted on precisely what he says is the way to go:
Beltran 28
Castillo 31
Perez 25
Green 33
Martinez 33
Church 29
Santana 29
K-Rod 27
Francouer 25
Bay 31
All fit HIS concept for what to sign more than his concept of what Omars mistake was.
Only ones who don’t fit are:
Alou 40
Delgado 34
Lo Duca 34
Wagner 34
Glavine 37
Hernandez 40-50 depending on who you believe! LOL
And out of that group Alou is about the only one you can say was not worth having if you wish to dismiss his 2006 contributions and only focus on 2007!
The picks they cost us netted the teams who got them NOTHING!
So tags assertion that only getting players in their prime (as defined by him <34 Years old) really is not correct!
The Majority of signings were in the age group he suggests, there were more failures and the majority of money went to the age group he suggests it should than in the 34+ list
And he says this because of his 25 year dissertation of why the Mets suck, and the reason he goes back to 25 years is precisely because what he is trying to say should be done WAS DONE while Omar was here and he needed those extra 19 years to hide that fact!
And forgive me I forgot to list Sheffield in the 34+ers
Actually they go hand in hand just like RS and RBI.
Raise your BA your automatically raising your OB. Raise your OB without a hit and your getting better pitches to hit later, which raises your BA and consequently your OB.
Rightso it’s not about raising OBP since the WALK isn;’t the goal it’s about incresing the BA not OBP!
Increase the BA and the OBP follows!
The GOAL is the increased BA not increased OBP!
Actually the goal IS to increase OBP by forcing the hitter to hit his pitch and leaving the ones that are not his pitch alone. So either get your pitch or take a walk.
The goal is definitely to raise the BA, the way to do that is to be more selective which has the effect of raising both.
Bingo Tagee. The focus is on “OBP” only because if they are being selective and not swinging at bad pitches and only swinging at pitches they can do damage on then their BA and Walks will go up as a byproduct thus raising their OBP.
You just contradicted yourself there TRS…
You say it’s about increasing OBP but then agree with Tagee who actually gets it!
It is to increase BA! And you don’t have to take a pitch to do that!
In fact taking a walk does not increase BA it isn’t even counted!
What it does it maybe help you increase BA later! So increasing OBP is really about increasing BA if what you say is true is correct!
I think Tag gets it and I think you just keep arguing because you want to argue not because you really understand what your saying!
They do go hand in hand because if you are focusing on your OBP and not swinging at bad pitches then the ones you do hit will be hit harder and thus raise your batting average. However, by not swinging at balls and being more selective because of the focus on OBP you are also going to walk more.
SO>>>> Focusing on your OBP will most likely result in a higher BA and a higher Walk rate which are byproducts of focusing on OBP.
So the focus is BA not OBP because the end result is BETTER HITS not more OB!
They go hand in hand because more hits increases OB but more ob does not INCREASE BA even one one millionth of a percentage point!
So then you were intially wrong is the end goal is better hits the FOCUS is on HITTING, BA not OB!
And if you try and twist this to saying you get better OB well OB doesn’t rate worth of hit any better than BA does!
But hitting the ball better is STILL the focus not the OB!
The Phils were not better than us offensively last year. The Mets scored more runs than any team in the division and 6th in the NL. Offense wasn’t our problem last year. While plate discipline is nothing, new not everybody has it and it was a huge reason why the team and especially Reyes played so well offensively. We didn’t have it in 2010 and it showed in the reults. Our offense sucked. You may not want to believe it but it makes a huge difference, compared to the free swinging philosophy. If they ran the bases a little better they would’ve scored even more runs. Hopefully they improve that aspect this year.
Dodging the facts again Bay and focusing on the last sentence because you have no answer for what was before.
If the Mets focus on OBP was so bad for the team and it did not help with RISP (because those who watch baseball know that is the Mets only problem) then do they get no credit for this?:
“Bayonne, only one team scored more runs with runners in scoring position than the Mets last year, the world champion Cardinals. and only three teams hit for better average with runners in scoring position than the Mets.
Oh yeah, and the Mets scored the most runs in the league with runners in scoring position and two outs. and only two teams hit for better average with runners in scoring position and two outs, the world champs and the phillies.”
The problem wasn’t in getting the young players Metsie, it was in keeping them. The NYY had traded away numerous goo to really good players for nothing or next to nothing for years.
Personally I’m not convinced that George had anything at all to do with scouting Posada, Williams, Pettite, or Rivera. Those guys were all drafted or signed months before George was suspended. He couldn’t have been scouting Jeter cause he was suspended then.
Again though. It wasn’t about getting guys, it was about trading them for crap on it’s last legs.
Another point. Back when the NYY went to four (4 not 3) World Series (winning two) there were no compensation picks due. All it cost was money. Totally different deal from now especially if going over slot is out of the question like with us.
The bulk of the heavy lifting on those teams was done by homegrown players or players obtained in trades anyway. FA for the NYY in those days included tons of busts. Gullett, Collins, Whitson, Tartabull ect.
The facts are with Steinbrenner’s ledgendary impatience his teams from 1982-1995 all failed to even make the playoffs once. 13 years in a row, with the Majors largest payroll.
Consideing all the winning they have done I find it extremely difficult to say there was a problem at all!
It’s you guys who seem to think Winning without having every position filled with homegrowns is a problem!
The issue really is you are more interested in growing talent than winning ballgames is to me!
And that is basically the main issue of the spenders/non-spenders as well!
Nonspenders are all concerned about the MiLs and BA’s list and drafts and kids and youth…
And everyone else cares about Wins and don’t really give a damn how young or old the team is that gets there!
I would take the years the yankees have won without any homegrowns or fewer if that what it took to have a meaningful season every year!
Not at all Metsie,
I think Nettles, Chambliss, Randolph, Dent, Lyle, Pinella, Figgy, Rivers (all trades) along with White, Guidry, Munson were what made those NYY teams.
I have no problem with trading prospects for vets, I just know that you can’t win with those vets when they arrive at various ages between 32-40. Those guys the NYY’s got arrived in their prime.
They added to them via FA before the current compensation system cost them #1 and #2 draft picks so who cares, but when they started running amok with a new FA every year for every need they lost…………13 straight times they didn’t make the playoffs even with the Majors largest payroll.
Not winning is losing. To some 3 pennants and a Wild Card in 4 consecutive seasons has been described as “not winning” so how can not winning any postseason berths in 13 years be described as winning?
It can’t.
“I just know that you can’t win with those vets when they arrive at various ages between 32-40″
But they HAVE Won!
How old was Cone, Clemmons and Wells?
Keith Hernandez is probably the best example of patience and discipline in his hitting approach.
Eleven seasons with at least 77 walks, ten seasons with more walks than K’s and a lifetime OB .88 better than his .296 BA. The ultimate hunter of pitches to drive if you ask me which is not to say that he never got caught looking at strike 3. It happens to every good hitter, not as often to bad one’s because they don’t take pitches which condequently causes them to get LESS pitches to hit.
Murphy doesn’t walk all that much but he barrels the ball which is what it’s all about. No one cared about Vlad Guerrero swinging out side the strike zone cause he was deadly at it but we don’t have any Vlad Guerrero’s here.
I remember one AB in 2008 against the Cubs (how could anyone forget) in which one of our hitters went out out of the strike zone attempting to make a productive out and looked what happened.
There really isn’t anyone in the lineup or bench that can afford to not get their fair share of good pitches to hit.
Leave the coaching to the hitting coach, I agree. And our current hitting coach believes in hitting your pitch and forcing the pitcher to give you that pitch. Not a big deal but certainly a better philosophy than to swing at everything dammit approach that Hojo seemed to have. Does Sandy believe OBP is important? Yeah. Did he hire a hitting coach that shared that philosophy? Yeah. Has that hitting coach been very successful at multiple levels? Yeah.
So again, it’s not like he is preaching go up there, don’t swing take a walk RBI’s are not important. What he is focusing on is making the pitcher come to you instead of coming to the pitcher.
well sometimes you have to win a game and the pitcher is NOT going to come to you.
Sorry buddy but you can’t make the pitcher come to you all the time, sometimes YOU have to make an adjustment in order to move a runner over, make a productive out, or just hit the ball a certain way.
And you know what type of hitters can do that? Good ones, good hitters with good eyes and good bat control can become situational and if you’re a talented bat handler you can perform according to the situation more often than not. And that includes attempting to do those things when the pitcher is ON and is NOT coming to you no matter what you do.
That’s all i’m saying cuz you’re gonna come back with some “book read” response – nothing innate.
Again ” Good ones, good hitters with good eyes and good bat control can become situational and if you’re a talented bat handler you can perform according to the situation more often than not.” Those guys have a high OBP. There are very few guys who are good situation hitters with bad OBP and poor pitch recognition.
Think about his, what if Wright had not struck out but had taken the walk? The guy was practically trying to walk Wright by pitching around him. Make him hit our pitch. What if he had not offered?
again, you haven’t a clue of what you’re even talking about. That remark i made has nothing to do with a hitter’s OBP. Joe McEwing could be good in spot like that or maybe even an Alex Cora could be able to adapt in a certain situation..or any journeyman contact hitter. You don’t particularly have to have a good “number” at anything. A hitter may not be that talented but could be a good bat handler in certain situations
OBP is the by-product of your talent and NOT the first action
you have no idea dude so don’t try and engage now have your customary last word cuz that’s what people like u do.
Uh so I can’t respond because you want to have the last word so I can’t have it? LOL, if you did not want me to respond then why would you respond?
Again, read about our current hitting coach’s philosophy before you say it’s only focused on taking the walk.
As I said if it isn’t focused on walking then it is not focused on OBP either!
It’s focused on increased BA which is the BEST OB you can get!
So this claim they are working on OBP is wrong and just secondary to increasing BA which you see to ignore in your thought proccess!
Not at all. It’s about not giving in to the pitcher and hunting your pitch. Thus you will in turn raise your batting average as you said because you are swinging at your pitch more often but you will also raise your OBP due to being more selective.
And pray tell what do you plan on doing with that pitch?
If you say HIT IT then the focus is BA not OBP!
OBP is only the focus when you do NOT have a pitch to hit!
It’s about taking the WALK when you can’t get a hit!
If you think walking helps you to hit better then your walking to increase BA not OB!
Man oh man are things always so white and black with you. Focusing on OBP is focusing on hitting your pitch and taking the walk if you don’t get it. It’s both, why is that so hard to comprehend? You don’t have to focus on just hitting or just walking… however playing smart baseball and hunting your pitch instead of swinging away to try and get the hit no matter what and just swinging at what the pitcher gives you every time? That’s not smart baseball.
I’m not totally sure why the same debate has to happen on every post.
You guys are all arguing about perception.
For example, if a leadoff hitter has a .279 batting average and a .322 on base percentage, one can look at that BA and say “respectable” but then you look at the fact he hits #1 in the order and has an OBP of .322 and you should recognize he’s not very good at his job, because as of a leadoff hitter his job is to get on base.
Not all OBP or all BA are black and white. A guy like Adrian Gonzalez has a high OBP because he’s an elite hitter who makes things happen at the plate.
A guy like Prince Fielder has a high OBP because he’s been more feared possibly because of who was hitting behind him (McGehee, Hart etc)
A guy like Miggy has a high OBP because he’s an elite hitter who makes things happen at the plate, but also is an extremely patient hitter and forces pitchers to throw strikes.
Everybody’s different. It depends on the makeup of your lineup, and the type of hitter you have. The best hitters have a high Avg, OBP, and Slg combined.
To me, Miguel Cabrera was the best all around hitter in MLB last year and should have won the MVP because of it.
And why are things always so reversed from what your trying to argue with you?
“Focusing on OBP is focusing on hitting your pitch…”
Thats focus is about HITTING!
Not getting OB…
If you focused on getting OB when you don’t get a hit thats not about hitting it’s about WALKING!
Jessup just pretty much said this!
OBP focus is about having a good BA and decreasing the outs when you do NOT get a hit!
It’s about WALKING when you do not hit!
So focusing on OBP IS ABOUT WALKING a point you claim isn’t so!
and if you think it is done to help hitting then the focus isn’t OBP it is BA where the HITS and only the HITS are recorded!
So make up your mind TRS is it aboput Hitting (BA) or about WALKING (OBP)?
What you keep saying is the goal is about increasing BA which if done correctly will also increase OBP!
But if you think the focus is OBP and NOT BA then OBP is all about walking something else you claim is not true!
So which is it dude?
OBP is not about walking and about making BA better or OBP is about increasing BA which really means the goal is BA not OB?
PLEASE for the love of god make up your mind here and admit which side of this line you keep trying to straddle your wrong about!
If the goal is to increase the hits then it’s a focus on BA not OBP!
If the goal as Jessup stated is about increasing good results when your not getting a hit then it’s all about the WALK!
Last response from me about this one so we don’t ruin another thread.
Focusing on OBP is about getting your pitch to hit and if you don’t taking the walk. Thus focusing on OBP will have a by product of raising both your BA as well as your Walks. It’s about both thus I don’t have to pick a damn side.
Metsie I think I kind of agree with all of you in this argument. Even though I am sure I get clumped into 1 group or the other.
I think part of the problem is some people view a walk so negatively. If lets say Miguel Cabrera has a 6 pitch at bat, and 4 of those pitches are not in his “wheelhouse” and are called a ball. Does that mean he didn’t go up there to hit?
If you swing at a pitch out of the strikezone, wouldn’t you agree the odds are in the pitchers favor? Half of OBP is based on what the pitcher throws at you.
Miggy was intentionally walked 22 times, he drew 108 walks. Does that mean he isn’t going up there to hit but just to walk? Or does it mean he is such a good hitter that he knows the strikezone and knows where he needs pitches to be in order to cause damage?
OBP just tells you a little more about a hitter because there’s more to hitting than just hacking away. The best hitters have a higher BA+OBP+SLG.
If you have a high BA, low OBP and high SLG it just shows you have a flaw as a hitter. If you have a high OBP but a low BA and low SLG, it shows a different kind of flag.
If you have a high OBP, SLG and low BA then uh… who the hell are you? Adam Dunn?
Youk, McCutch, Granderson, Fowler, Pena would all be guys I’d say show a flaw as a hitter due to low BA but higher OBP and SLG. Not saying they aren’t fine hitters, but
Guys like Starlin, Peralta, Jeter, Jay, Bourn, Ethier would fall in the high BA but lower SLG/OBP
Again, nice hitters, but a flaw.
Depends on what you want from them in your lineup
TRS – No focusing on getting your pitch to hit is about HITTING not OBP!
Taking the walk is about OBP when you don’t get your pitch but the reason for patience is to get a HIT not just ON BASE!
If getting a HIT is the desired result then the focus is on increasing and improving the result of that BA not to tick up OBP which is just something else you get while getting that better hit!
When you buy a concert ticket and go, you get a ticket stub! The GOAL was to see a concert not get a ticket stub!
The Stub is only INCIDENTAL to the goal! The FOCUS was to see a concert not increase Ticket Stubs!
Yes Jessup we do agree on what the focus is. Increasing OBP is secondary to increasing BA and SLG. Taking Pitches may help the latter which makes the focus those and not the resulting OB. So the focus really isn’t on the OB it is on the BA and saying improving the OB is really a lie your looking to improve something OTHER than OB where BA and SLG are concerned. If the players OB doesn’t go up in that scenario but the BA and/or SLG do you can’t say you failed because the focus was not really about the OB at all! He didn’t walk more, didn;t get OB more but he got more valuable OB or he incresed it no more than he increased his BA! So BA increase was what imporved the OBP the OBP didn’t increase the BA!
In your very good example a focus of OBP is not so much about increasing BA but in walking more when you can’t increase BA! That in itself does make OBP a focus on WALKING!
Is it bad to walk? Hell NO and none of the BA folks say it is bad, just not as good as a hit due to the ramifications a ball in play can bring that a walk can not such as the RBI without bases loaded and ability to get more than one base (for one OB) as a result of the hit!
The OB was still not the key there it was what kind of OB he got so the focus wasn’t really on the OB but the result of HOW he got the OB!
In the case you cited it is perfectly reasonable to ask a good BA player to focus on OB when it would be almost impossible to increase BA from where it is.
That is WHOLLY a focus on OB and WALKING!
Because you determined that it is an achievable improvement where increasing BA of a .290 – 300+ hitter is not.
Andf I have no issues with that provided the focus on the walk does not take away from the benefits that BA was bringing you!
Such as a guy taking a 3-1 fastball down the pipe hoping to walk instead of crush a fat pitch
Thats the only WORRY to a focus on OBP.
Agreed, I can find some bad offensive players who have a decent average and low OBP. It is much harder to find some bad offensive players who have a high OBP and low BA.
No back up catcher is going to be a big bench threat, since they rarely get used as a PH anyway.
Not likely to be a BU SS/2B that will scare anyone, so that lets Cedono off the hook.
So either Baxter or Turner. Turner most likely because of where he plays.
So, who might be out there with a big stick, but most likely if they are a feared hitter but only getting a bench gig, they must not be particularly viable in the field.
A guy like Thome? Would that have been possible for the Mets?
Keep inmind guys like that (at the end of a big career) are often in thta “one more shot at a ring” mode if they have anything left offer.
Or maybe someone better than Baxter frees up that can play OF passably. Damon? Is that someone that anyone will fear?
anyway, I’m sure someone wil be able to produce a list, but again, any “feared” hitter that was scrapping for a bench job is going to have some baggage 9coming off injury, no longer able to play the field, or they just plain sucked last year).
I like the idea of Damon. I know his CF days are behind him but is he better there than what we currently have? Then when Torres is healthy he can platoon with Bay. Could be a guy that could still even hit lead off. I just don’t know if playing for the Mets is something Damon would even consider.
he had a better year last year than I thought (for a 37 YO dude). But, in the last 3 season, he only has 4 games in CF, and last year only played 16 in the OF at all.
So as a bench guy (basically a 1 AB DH!) could be good. Pretty sure though playing regularly in CF might not work too well. But again, not someone to be “feared”
If they got a different 2B, Murphy would be a very similar player.
Play for the Mets? Well, if he was willing to go from the red sox to Yankers, he will go anywhere for a job!
But he has shown the desire to play for a contender as well.
I know he could not start 162 games in CF but I bet there is enough juice to play a few more games out there at a better ability than a AA guy and a converted SS.
den dekker and Valdespin were never going to be starting out there.
and playing for a condendor goes out the window when the season is about to start and you still don’t have a job!
how about platoon mate for bay? That way, whichever one is not starting will be your veteran bench bat.
If we’re talking strict platoon, Damon would start roughly 60-65% of the time with Bay on the bench. I’m not sure how I feel about that.
trs86 — Relevant link on the lack of plate discipline:
http://www.metsminorleagueblog.com/the-cf-situation-no-plate-discipline-no-majors/
Thanks, any coach would agree that what separates major league and minor league players is pitch recognition and plate discipline. Ask good ole Val.
No team’s bench scares anybody.
Very few you are right. Otherwise why are they on the bench? The Phillies got lucky with Thome willing to come and be a PH only guy just because of his history with the Phillies.
Especially in the NL where we don’t carry a big threat for the DH.
Not true.The thought of going with these players as our bench for 162 games scares the crap out of me!!
Minus the backup catcher which never pinch hits anyway, is it really that bad? Turner proved to be very valuable, Cedeno? I bet the Phillies would like to have him right now. Really it’s just one decent OF away from being ok.
so convert baxter into a better OF and it looks fine. But is someone like Austin Kearns (just a name that probably represents the type of guy out there) or even Ankiel really that much better?
I don’t know about you all but Turner is not impressing me, especially this spring.
His defense isn’t all that special and he hasn’t got going yet this year. Hitting well below the mendoza line.
If he’s not going to be the type that can come off the bench and get a PH, I think we can do better.
I am not too worried about his spring results. He showed last year he can be a decent MI backup with some hitting ability.
Davis and Duda are legitimate. Murphy will get 20 HR’s and 30 doubles if his glove allows him to stay in the lineup. Wright and Bay must punish LHP and a platoon mate for Bay no later than Mid July will be a big help
Torres, Tejada and Thole have to keep the lineup moving. If they can just do that we’ll be close to the division lead in runs scored. The rotation isn’t horrendous pending continued improvement by Niese and Gee and health by Santana. Pen, bench and AAA depth are the biggest question marks. If there isn’t an overwhelming need for any of the three we could flirt with .500. If there is we could flirt with 70 wins. Probably somewhere inbetween, 75 in a tough division.
I am constantly amazed how the well versed fan base that comments here, discusses these issues before the Mets brass realize what is going on. Do we follow the team and know team ballplayers better than Alderson and the front office or do we as fans concentrate on “the game” while the front office concentrates on the fan base and making money? Interesting, isn’t it?
who says they don’t recognize it? the problem is, we can brainstrorm all we want, but they have to live in reality.
So saying “you need a better bench bat” is easy. Most of the time, identifying a few options is doable. What gets hard is convincing them to sign up, especially if you can’t/won’t wildly overpay.
Look at Thome as an example. Not a chance in the world he was signing with the mets, so he was not a viable option. Other guys that the Mets were monitoring/had interest in (per reports) also elected to go elsewhere.
That was the most difficult job in judging Omar’s moves and continues to be today. I know it is shocking but the Mets had a budget then, have one now, some players want to play in NY, some don’t, some seek to only play on the west coast, some the east, some for a contender, some not, some for a starting job only, some for a minor league deal….
Metfan Lou — Are you out of your blooming mind? So often the collective voice of ignorance is expressed here. Because there is sometimes unanimity of thought might just mean zippo.
Des,
I come here to getr a little solace from my fellow Met fans not for you to agree with my wife!
Good luck Joe D! Everyone is sending you positive vibes!
Yeah Joe, take good care of yourself! Thanks for all you do on here!
Good luck to you, Joe. Hope all goes well with your procedure and your back on your feet in no time.
Get well soon Joe!
And so you feel right at home I will disagree Joe…the Mets bench scares a LOT of people…
But they all root for the Mets! LOL
To have a fighting chance Bay has be the player he was with the Red Sox. We have no cavalry coming over the hill. I guess what could be called the “waiver wire” will produce no suprises and I would favor youth then to retreads. We have enough of them. We like to take chances on what could be given a former busted wing now “healed”.
I have some confidence in the lineup but not to the tune we are crediting them with in reference to the big bop. Torres, if his calf holds out, may be a pleasant surprise. Valdespin, if he can play outfield at all, should be on the roster. He can run, hit, and is aggressive. Today he will lead off ad play CF. I think I am not alone in my thinking.
Pelfrey and Bay both belong on Newhart. (old sitcom about a shrink) WTF? Maybe Keith should be hitting coach. His comments from the booth about struggling hitters are on the money and he speaks from experience and expertise. He should work with Bay. Pelfry I don’t know.
I think we are looking at 80 wins provided injurious calamity doesn’t smite the plans. Harvey will be up at some point. Collins will squeeze every last win possible for our hapless, lovable and underrated Mutts.
No idea how serious the calf injury was but they can take forever.
Good luck, Joe.
Does anybody have an idea of which MLB players might be released? If they don’t make their parent clubs one would have to hope that they are still decent players who just couldn’t make the cut on a roster packed deep with talent – not cuts by clubs with limited talent to begin with which would only give us more of the same of what we have already.
Also, we must keep in mind that other teams will be competiting with the Mets for their services – if they are any good, of course. That might not go well with the payroll limitations.
As I said we can only guess what the run scoring would have been like had Beltran and Duda been in the lineup together. The fact that we scored the same 4.4 runs Beltran and 4.4 with Duda separately does raise credence to the hypothesis that it could have been even more with them together. And though run scoring was not our problem, the amount of runs we amassed was more critical than for other teams. Teams with better pitching did not need to have such run scoring power but us, with our bad pitching, more run scoring was essential.
That was the point I made about the 2002 A’s. As Tony LaRussa confirmed, they had such a dominating pitching staff that they could have afforded to lose the league’s MVP in Giambi along with Dammon, especially because the returning hitters weren’t slouches at the plate either. Their pitching and dependable hitting still enabled them to easily outscore the opposition. It wasn’t a dire situation as depicted in the movie. Sort of like the 1963 Yankees. Their two big guns, Mantle and Maris each missed more than half the season yet the team was so strong in hitting, bench strength and pitching that they still ran away with the American League pennant.
Like the the M and M boys of the early sixties, perhaps we will have the Three D’s – David, Davis and Duda to boast about.
“Curious but I think I am lost in the debate here. Are we saying that you don’t need veterans to add to your core of homegrown players? Are we saying that you can do it all through FA? Again, it seems the answer lies right in the middle. Develop that core of 4-5 young players that are under control and price advantage to the team, then go out and get guys that fit those guys to surround them either by trade or FA making sure that you don’t go too far one way with those by only bringing in expensive FA on the downside of their careers.”
Exactly, TR.
A good blend of youngsters, players in their prime and key veterans does a team make. It can also be primary veterans with one or two good years left (as we saw with the 2006-8 Mets) but that means continued replenishing into the free agent market like Omar was doing (and the Yankees during the eighties, etc). It is rare that a sudden onslaught depending primarily on call-ups within a year of so of each other comes together and creates a winner (Tampa Bay, the ’69 Mets, etc.). There has to be a blend, a mix.
The Mets had that blend last year and were a joy to watch. And they were doing it without the help of the near dozen bargain basement players obtained over the winter – not to mention doing it with the loss of Ike Davis and no Santana, plus lengthy injury to Wright. Still, it was dismantled under the guise of “re-building”, a business smokescreen to justify the dumping of contracts due to the Wilpons’ catastrophic financial troubles (a big market team is not going to go broke due to an overpaid roster). One does not break up a contending team to get a highly rated prospect – they usually try to add on a missing piece to get it better (but not at the price of sacrificing the future). And they could have continued with a nice blend this coming season but obviously didn’t.
If fans want to say that the Wilpons were in bad financial straits and thus they had no choice but to dump Krod and Beltran (and eventually not try to re-sign Reyes) I will agree with them 100 percent. But those who want to justify these moves, especially in the case of Wheeler, as a baseball decision necessary for “rebuilding” a team that was going nowhere in the years ahead, and thus obtaining players like Torres, Rauch (or the group we got last year) just as fill ins till the youth comes aboard – that is simply looking at things wearing blinders. A lot of that youth is already on the club and was last year already showing signs of sprouting it’s wings.
Forgot to add – wasn’t the blend of veterans, players in their prime, and youngsters was what made the Oakland teams under Sandy and Beane so successful? “Rebuilding” didn’t just come through the farm system – it was aided by trades, free agent signings and retaining some of the veteran players already on those teams.
Why isn’t that re-building pattern being followed today?
Two points Joey D.
The NYY really didn’t win in the 80′s. After 1981 they never made the playoffs despite adding many a free agent. That’s what led to them having to rebuild.
Secondly I can’t see how we could be considered to be contending last year. 7.5 GB is not huge and 6 teams, depending on how far back isn’t impossible but the combination of the two things makes it an extreme long shot just to be standing at the wire.
I wonder if you can point to specific teams that made a successful climb to the playoffs after being behind 6 teams and 7.5 games.
Remember we had one route already blocked, SF AZ, Mil, Pitts and St. Louis had two routes. That further diminishes the chances wouldn’t you say?
Personally I thought it was incredibly lucky to have a chance to get Wheeler because the potential ace or #2 pitcher is the hardest thing to obtain. Look at what Philly and the NYY have had to do to get a couple. Drabeck, d’Anaurd, Montero. Some of the best prospects in the game at the time of the trade. To get a potential ace or #2 for the last two months of Carlos was more than we could have dreamed of.
T,
Haven’t I been saying that even if the team faded in September, that winning the wildcard was not as important as it was the players building up confidence, maturity, experience and a winning attitude by finishing up with a winning record instead of stumbling miserably like it did? An 84-78 record would have gone a long way carrying momentum and confidence into this year.
So don’t look at it as winning the wildcard as it was being allowed to play their game and improve, showing front office support and not keeping the idea in the back of their minds that no matter how well they do, the front office is going to undercut what they are accomplishing.
That’s an essential ingredient to building a winner. It’s not so black and white as the team’s particular finish but how that finish was accomplished.
Joey D,
Yes I have heard you say that and I don’t feel your point is without merit. Not at all. I’m not sure how much more our guys could have done though as they were all fighting for their baseball lives or in their walk years. Excluding Bay perhaps so perhaps they got some of that residual benefit anyway. Not saying it is exactly the same thing but I think quite a few young guys walked off the field on October 1st having proven something to themselves.
Murphy, Tejada, Duda. Others may have determined they have a little more to do to get themselves fully established. Gee, Niese, Thole. All in all not a bad year for many of them aside from the unfortunate injury to Ike.
I’m a big believer in talent over everything else. Talent without will or smarts won’t get you far but will and smarts without talent isn’t taking you to the playoffs to often either.
The last time we got a potential starting pitcher that high in the draft (where Wheeler was taken, 1st rnd #6) was Phil Humber, the time before that was Paul Wilson, the time before that was Doc Gooden. That just shows me the level of risk involved and since I don’t see us drafting that early too often I think the risk was well worth it because one Doc Gooden can take you a long long way and you just don’t get the chance all that often.
Will he be Humber, Wilson, Gooden or someone else? Time will tell but he at least has a shot at being Gooden and if Harvey is too now you can start making moves that accentuate the present with a much better chance than we had being 7.5 GB with 6 teams to hurdle.
Hi T,
Your points are, of course , quite valid too. There are so many ways to look at the equation.
We both agree there is no way knowing how the season might have ended if things were handled differently. But I’m sure it would have ended in a much more positive note. Though not comparing the potential of this team to that of the ’69 miracle club, I will use 1968 as an example. Through late June the ’68 club had been playing at a pace that kept them just three games below .500 – an amazing feat for a team of mostly young and inexperienced players. But after flirting close to .500 the first half of the year, they also had a poor second half and finished 16 games below the break-even point and avoided finishing last (again) by just a half-game.
But the won-loss record was not significant because we all saw the potential with the sudden emergence of Koozman, Ryan, McAndrew to to along with rookie of the year Seaver, plus the emerging double play combination of Harrelson and Boswell and hopes that the horrible year for Agee was not indicative of a then two-year decline since winning the AL Rookie of the Year Award in 1966.
Nor did that poor second half dour the spirits or attitude of the players. As they took their lumps playing out the season, they still gained confidence in themselves, learned more about playing the game and developed an important winning attitude, not the losing one that Tom Seaver saw in the locker room his rookie season. Gil Hodges stuck with the kids but also relied heavily on 34 year old Ed Charles (the team co-leader in home runs) for his clubhouse leadership.
They were not a dispirited team which saw their efforts undermined by the front office. They entered 1969 with an extreme sense of confidence. This was not projecting itself as the first eastern division champion for even Gil admitted even as the team was inching itself closer to the Cubs in July that winning 85 games was a more realistic expectation and a stepping stone to real contention in 1970. I remember a lot of us getting worked up by the end of June with even Bob Brown, who did the pre and post game shows over WJRZ radio, telling fans to cool down their enthusiasm because this team was not going to win any division.
So that’s why IMHO, having left the team alone and retaining KRod and Beltran would have been more important in the long-term “rebuilding” than undermining and demoralizing it by getting Zach Wheeler. As others have mentioned, the team looks dead and I noticed on 30/30 that even David Wright had the more “you never know” attitude instead of saying we have a good ball club that’s going to surprise everybody. Even if he didn’t believe it inside, isn’t that what most say, at least in March, anyway?
Your point about the young kids walking away in October thinking they had proved something in themselves is correct – but how much of that focus is more on their own future than that of their team? That can lead to playing for one’s own self (i.e., Jose Reyes and others during their free agent years?) which makes for a group of individuals rather than a team. If the team falters for a few years waiting for the farm system to be the savior, those future hopefuls might very well find the likes of Davis, Murphy and others looking to move on to teams they feel have a chance of winning now – not further onto the future.
Might not also. But the foundation has already been set and doesn’t seem to be changing.
Good chatting as always,
Joe
Thanks Joe,
I don’t know that the team was dispirited or felt undermined by the FO if at all and IF they did it may not have been due entirely to the trades either. there were other things going around that clubhouse. The end of such a bright future that never came together after starting out so well. The Madoff thing, never ending injuries, all the negativity of the press but you know Joey those trades created openings for other guys to get a chance. Duda in RF, Parnell and Acosta at closer. Young unestablished players are greatful for those chances. Older veteran’s who are fully focused on a ring are the one’s most hurt by that. All players seek to establish themselves and then win.
Whatever poor feelings they had (if any) would certainly be buoyed by a dominant Zach Wheeler (if it’s to be) every 5th day and when you think about that’s exactly what we lacked in 2006 and 2007.
Whatever short term hit they may have taken by the front office couldn’t have been as soul crushing as seeing one of their own highly compensated under performing players refuse to go down to the minors to increase the teams chances in 2010 and seeing the FO and ownership bail on them by not simply ditching Oliver Perez while there was still a chance.
After all they had to look at him lounging around the clubhouse everyday. Carlos at least left a lot of class, some good wishes and even a nose job behind, not to mention, maybe, just maybe…………something even better.
Hi T,
I don’t know how much the press or the Madoff situation hanging over the heads of the Wilpon affected the players. But I do know that with Madoff looming and the press literally pounding on them the difference in their style of play (not the won-lost record) was noticeably different before and after those trades. They began pressing, tying to do too much which showed in their loss of concentration. The sound aggressive play became reckless and risky. Even with continuing to score 4.4 runs per game without Beltran, the pressure was on the young kids to score more because there was less confidence in the pitching. Starters felt they couldn’t rely on the bullpen to protect their leads and the pen seemed lost without knowing they had KRod coming out in the ninth and thus lost focus on doing their own job.
Whether or not this permeates into 2012 and beyond is, of course, anybody’s guess. I could be completely wrong on my take of things. But one thing is for sure – I never saw a team as close as five games out in the loss column almost two thirds into the season – and playing as much as eleven games over .500 since the horrible start dismantled. Never. Not once.
I also never saw a franchise in such a big market area as New York in such financial disarray as the Mets (Dodgers make a close second LOL). With all their financial messes, the Marlins waited till their team won the world series before cutting them apart. They were losing money and getting further in debt yet stayed with it’s high salaried players instead of conducting a mid-season fire sale.
I think the latter was responsible for the former and nothing else. Moves like that for a team in the position of the Mets have never been done in mid-season before. Often, teams stood still and didn’t go after more help (i.e., the Pirates during their miracle first half) but they never dismantled.
This afternoon, Sandy Alderson admitted to Mike Francesa that the Madoff situation and what it could POTENTIALLY cost the Wilpons made it necessary to dismantle the team, something he also said he does not have to worry about now. He also said, however, that he had some money to still spend on the roster last year but didn’t. I can see that in savings from no longer having Beltran and KRod but at that point, spending on other players wasn’t worth it from a baseball perspective either.
Whether this will be just a bad memory for the fans and nothing more, we won’t know for a few years yet. And I hope that the pressure of having to meet such high expectations in front of a hyped up New York crowd doesn’t have an adverse affect on the young Wheeler when he is called up.
We shall see. All we can do is contemplate at this point and for all we know, it might make no difference in the overall performance of the team in the years to come, one way or the other, Wheeler and all.