24
2012
Depth Is Not The Mets Strength
An article by 
Ever since losing the NLCS to the St. Louis Cardinals in 2006 when they were destined to win, it seems the Mets have been a snake-bitten franchise.
The collapses of 2007-08, the injury plagued years from 2009-11 and of course the Madoff ponzi scheme have marred the past few years for this franchise.
The combination of injuries and the lack of spending power have meant that the organization simply has had to move forward with what it has.
First off, injuries happen to every team every year, but the Mets have had an uncanny amount the last few years. The problem is that the team has lacked depth for other guys to fill in at the Major League level.
Now, these are all Major League players we’re talking about. Many of us fans can only dream about making our big league debuts, but for these players, it has become a reality.
But based on the lack of depth, some guys who either aren’t ready for big league action or simply are not as talented have been thrust into extended action.
The whole point of having a minor league system is to have someone ready if a player on the big league roster gets hurt. Of course, it’s also to develop young prospects, but that’s why there are many levels in each organization.
Just look at the situation this year. The team hasn’t had the funds to bring in any high-priced talent, and it decided not to bring in any role-type players to compete for spots. All the players the team brought in basically assumed a spot on the roster.
That’s all fine, if they all stay healthy. But already Andres Torres is dealing with injury, and here’s where the lack of depth comes in.
If Torres misses time (which it’s too early to tell just yet, but I’m just using him as an example), who plays center field? Jason Bay said he would shift over, but he needs to worry more about his offensive production rather than trying to cover the expansive Citi Field gaps—even with the fence reduction.
Prospects like Kirk Nieuwenhuis and Matt den Dekker are said to still need some time to develop in the minors. Even the name of middle infield prospect Jordany Valdespin has been thrown out there.
Here lies the problem: There’s no middle ground. If the guy on the big league level goes down, there are really only unseasoned prospects to fill in. Scott Hairston would be an option, but he’s hurt too. What is going on with this team!
I have always been an advocate of letting the young guys play if the situation is right. If a guy can be called up and fly under the radar for a few weeks as he gets his legs under him, that’s great. But if he’s looked upon as a major run producer immediately, that pressure is never good.
Depth is a major concern for the Mets moving forward. Hopefully, if the money issues are somewhat behind them, that can be something Alderson and company address over the next few years.
The roster may only be made up of 25 players at a time, but it’s imperative that the higher levels of the organization have players that can step right into action.
About the Author: Jim Mancari
Jim Mancari hails from Massapequa, N.Y. He recently earned a Master's degree in Journalism at Hofstra University. He is a devout Mets fan and takes pride in his team, despite their lack of success over the last few years. Like all Mets fans, Jim has plenty of hope. He also writes as the sports reporter for the Brooklyn Tablet newspaper and the senior editor of metroBASEBALL Magazine. Click my name to view my personal website.
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a ML depth chart can go only so deep with a 25 man roster. So the CF depth was Torres then Hairston. Any team that loses there starter and the back up is going to be short. Hence the need (as noted) for guys pushing their way up from the minors. So, #3 on the chart was Kirk, but with him nursing an injury too, of course they are short.
So, unless the ML injuries resolve this week, they will have to dip into the broader depth pool: the rest of baseball. Especailly at this time, there are always guys available. MiL invites cut loose, AAAA guys you can get cheap, 40 man roster casualties.
basically, the Mets (like every other team) really couldn’t have 5 ML quality CFs laying around. So if you get caught short like this, you troll around and come up with someone.
Exactly how they got Pridie last year I believe.
And with the new CBA rules, supposedly there will be even more FAs cut loose late in ST than in the past.
One thing this team has to learn to embrace is the concept of having 5 cornerstones. Guys that will be here for 10-12 years and an ever revolving cast of decent – good players surrounding them for 2-3 years at a time.
Intelligent choices on middle tier free agents who don’t come here on 5 year guaranteed deals and vesting options and stuff like that.
There are a multitude of reasonable type B free agents available every year who on one and two year deals can play well for you, have plenty to prove, don’t cost you a #1 draft pick but leave behind a supplemental pick when they go FA. Instead of losing a top draft pick you gain one. That’s two extra chances of getting a longer term solution for one of the numerous weak spots and no albatross contract to risk having to live with.
BUY TO RENT should be the mantra. For a long time now the idea has been to “take care of a position” for 4-5 years because that affords time to take care of other positions and start narrowing them down. I can understand that in theory but in reality if one of those positions you’ve “taken care of” busts then your stuck for years and the money used there has gone to waste and you’ve cost yourself a top draft choice as well.
Take Castillo. Emergency trade, no complaints. did what he had to, didn’t kill us with Butera although it wouldn’t have killed us to have him now either but anyway, Castillo was a plan B, Houston made an offer. let him go, take the pick (usually in the 40-60 range) and get a stop gap if you can’t find a decent 2 year guy and re address 2B the next year.
Same with Perez. End of 2008, take the pick and sign a type B FA for 1-2 years. Gain a supplemental round pick for losing Perez and potentially another when the replacement leaves.
Delgado was a type B at the end of 2008. Not going to last forever and with two bad 1st halves in 2007 and 2008 probably not going to be a type B ever again. Get something for him and get a one or two year rental with something to prove and possibly cash him in for another pick later.
Wagner was a type A leaving behind TWO picks, Don’t trade him and give Boston those two picks. Keep him and keep the picks for yourself and have two chances to get a useful player for 6 years or more or have something to trade.
Barajas was a type B at the end of 2010. We sold him for cash on August 22nd to LA who wasn’t even in the race for a Wild Card. I don’t know how much cash we got but I know he wasn’t sold to save on salary cause he was only making 500 K for the whole year. The real savings was in not have to pay the signing bonus of the draft pick he would have left behind. The Dodgers then (as well as everyone else) had their choice to resign him or take the pick. They resigned him for a year on Dec 3rd, played him last season and let him go FA and now will have the 51st pick in the 2012 draft. That should have been our pick in the 2011 draft which was the deepest draft in 10 years or more. The 51st pick last year was the NYY top selection Dante Bichette Jr. and one of the top catching prospects Austin Hedges went at 54.
The chance to get one of those guys was not worth what ever money the Mets saved on the draft bonus or got from the Dodgers.
Now that’s 6 picks we could have had from rounds that have a 66% success ratio in prospects making it to the Majors and all from guys who because of talent or being at the end of their careers weren’t cornerstones and still leaves a decent chance of getting more from the replacements, doesn’t hurt and probably helps the on field effort and completely eliminates the risk of an albatross contract you can’t get out of.
That’s how you build depth while staying competitive at the same time.
There are other strategies one can employ that would do the same but the idea has got be to get off a guy while he still has serviceable years left in him, or at least the perception that he does.
The risk of poor free agent deals is next to nothing in this case since your only talking 2-3 year deals at the most to guys who are still looking for the big payday and even if the “swap” doesn’t turn out in your favor you still have the draft pick which could make it a gigantic win.
Those picks kept by going type B instead of A added to those picks received by letting guys go will be your depth and some of them will turn into your cornerstones as well, other will be available to make trades with.
Buy (type B) to rent, then recycle, rinse repeat and at some point they’ll be no need to scour the list of who’s available for 8-12 spots on the 40 man roster every year.
How can you compile 5 cornberstone guys when you actually have one let him go or trade him?
I can’t for the life of me think of any team that has 5 cornerstone guys
You can’t amass 5 cornerstones who will be with you for 10-12 years if you spend all your best draft picks on guys who’ll only be with you for 2-5 years. That’s kind of the point.
Rollins, Utely, Hamels, Howard and Ruiz have been the cornerstones of the Phillies 5 consecutive NL East pennants.
Jeter, Petite, Posada, Rivera and Williams the NYY five. (and IMO O’Neil became one too)
Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, Chipper and Andruw Jones the Braves five.
Zito Mulder, Hudson, Tejada, Chavez and Giambi the A’s six.
lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner, Posey, Brian Wilson the Giants five
Kemp, Either, Billingsley, Kershaw the Dodgers four.
Carpenter, Wainwright, Pujols, Edmonds, Molina the Cards 5.
Not all were homegrown, not all were with the team 10-12 years but all provided long term continuity and were intelligently filled in behind but they all provided the base that formed the core of their team. We really only had 3. Reyes, Wright and Beltran.
Who have been a cornerstone for how long? 4 or 5 years?
Bichette Jr or Austin Hedges who could have been selected with the draft choice we sold to the Dodgers could certainly become cornerstones for the teams that selected them.
Well not Hedges, he got put off by San Diego selecting another top catching prospect Brett Austin ahead of him and the 2nd best IFA catching prospect 16 year old Jose Ruiz during negotiations and wound up going to college.
I don’t think money was the issue here because SD has spent big in the draft recently as evidenced by their early round selections of HS kids.
What you describe was the issue with Omar – he killed this team. Unfortunately, it is tough to change the business/talent model overnight. Sandy has almost gotten us there. Look what he did with Beltran – we got Wheeler. How much do you want to bet Omar would have extended him telling us “after the last 2 years we need consistency…”
I am very confident with Sandy at the wheel. And now that Picard has crawled back in his hole, I believe the Wilpons will give Sandy everything he needs – as he did Omar, but Omar was an idiot.
Keep in mind this team was 1 big hit from the World Series with a $95 million payroll, Omar told the Wilpons they need to spend to get over the hump, 3 years later (2009) it was a 70 win team with $142 million payroll.
If the Endy Chavez catch was the most recent apex of this franchise, Monday’s settlement marks the climb up from rock bottom – only get better from here!
With the new collective bargaining agreement it will be more difficult for us to do what everyone else has been doing for 5 years. Pump up the farm by going overslot but teams with supplemental picks do get to spend more without penalty because they have them so it’s still a viable strategy to try to get some higher end and longer term solutions in here and the opportunity for upgrades everywhere on the roster is enormous so there should be some good one and two year rentals available every year that fit in with present and future needs.
One interesting thing to keep an eye on is whether Alderson will use the projected value of the draft pick as a base line in any trade talks. If he doesn’t that is a clear indication that the Wilpon’s still don’t want to spend on the draft even with a cap and would prefer to acquire a lesser prospect who’s signing bonus has already been paid as opposed to taking the better prospect in the draft and paying the bonus themselves.
It was nice to see us spend a little in the draft last year (21st out of 30) and even though it represents a marked departure in previous practices what we did spend still fell considerably short of what the cap limit under the new CBA would have been.
Getting the wilpon’s to understand that building a baseball team is not a year by year occurence but a continual fluid process is vital to ever having a competitive team for more than a couple of years at a time.
Selling draft choices for cash in August is as harmful to the future as not taking them back when available in December or pissing them away in January and is in fact the reason this team never has an in their prime starting 8 that plays well on both sides of the ball or any depth when injuries strike.
Right but we are being told to do what now is forbidden more forcibly and risks losing 1st round picks….
See the point here you need to look at is doing things the way they were done before can’t work anymore!
So all this mentioning of us not doing it in the past is pointless since now you CAN NOT DO IT even if you wanted to!
It is now a forbiden method so no point even trying to do that now!
Going over slot isn’t forbidden, it just incurs unwelcome penalties that outweigh the benefit.
My point was that recycling one and two year type B FA’s and letting them leave, hopefully as type B’s again will net us extra picks and extra money to spend in the draft without incurring any penalties.
That’s not forbidden at all, you just have to have them on your roster the whole season.
Barajas still would have netted us a supplemental pick in the 2011 draft under both the expiring and new CBA provided we didn’t sell that pick to the Dodgers.
well I don’t know how you can plan that considering no one knows who is going to be type A type B until after they have played for you…
Really you should not build your roster based on what you might get for losing a player but what he can contribute to the baseball…
If it isn’t enough to keep him and get something for him I’ll take gravy but the potatoes is still most important.
Well I think it’s easily doable, even by accident like Barajas for example. He wasn’t signed to be a potential supplementary pick but in fact he turned out to be just that.
Now would you have preferred that we sold him for cash or kept him and drafted a catcher in the first round?
See there are times when you can’t offer arb to a guy because of the risk he’ll accept. Mike Piazza was a type B but we couldn’t afford to offer him arb since A, he probably would have accepted and B) we wanted to move on and C) his arb decision would be based on making 15 M.
La Duca was a similar risk for the same exact reasons.
Barajas arb would have been based on 500K, maybe he gets 1 M tops and he wouldn’t have killed us to keep him and he most likely declines anyway.
Now a smart FO, like the NYY will approach a guy like Vazquez for instance and give him something to decline arb because it doesn’t hurt his negotiating position one iota. No team interested in his services would have to forfeit a pick as a type B FA so he doesn’t care. We could have done the exact same thing with both Piazza, Lo Duca AND Barajas and even if you hate first round picks what harm is there in having them?
Yeah, depending on if any of these guys come back in time, maybe the Mets can pick up an outfielder right before they break camp
So the question is why did Sandy want to hold off till the middle of the season using some of the money he had left to address the problem of injury? Before spring training we already knew the team had depth problems and there were enough relatively inexpensive bench players available all winter.
He is now going to be forced to get some bench strength for he really has no choice and has to be a bit less rigid with his payroll structure. As you mentioned, rushing the kids will be a bad idea since they are not completely ready yet. This is also going to cause changes in the 40 man roster in some manner.
Again, this resembles more a business man running in charge of the personnel decisions than a baseball man. Can’t believe those he relies on advised him we had adequate bench strength
They had enough bench strength. they were supposed to have back up bench guys already before injuries happened?
I would suspect that they also wanted to see how the MiL possibilities looked at some positions (CF being one of them) before bringing in even more guys that they couldn’t keep.
Not arguing that he should have Stick…Just pointing out that statement was said about Omar in 2009….
Xtreeme always claims Omar was unprepared for the injuries in 2009….
Not a peep now and I’m fine with that provided there wasn’t a peep about it then….
It could be said Sandy really ignored the everyday positions in favor of the 7th 8th and 9th inning Bullpen this offseason and he is paying for it now.
Kirk will get healthy and come up once the season starts to solve this problem in a more meaningfull way.
Personally this is just a year of going through the motions, punching the seasonal clock and getting the actual Met team (thats is in the MiLs) ready for 2013 which will be make or nbreak year for this front office!
Joey D,
Someone’s got to look out for the long term interests of the team. If that had been going on all along we wouldn’t have anything to worry about but realistically when your starter, reserve and AAA prospect on the 40 go down that’s going to cause a problem for every team.
Even in 2010, 9 months after the injury and 2 months after the surgery the best Minaya could do was Gary Matthews Jr.
If Granderson had gone the NYY could slide over Gardiner and even Swisher if absolutely need be as both of them have extensive playing time in CF. We don’t have those types of corner OFer’s and haven’t in years. Church could have played there in a pinch but Floyd, Alou, Green, Murphy, Bay, Duda? not likely.
We haven’t had a farm capable of producing a Gardiner or obtaining a Swisher. The best situation we’ve had in CF was back when Omar first took over. Cameron, Milledge, Gomez and then the ultimate, Beltran. Cameron went for Nady, Milledge for Church and Schneider and Gomez in the Santana trade and Beltran’s deal ran out, Kirk got hurt again and den Dekker isn’t even on the 40 or anywhere close offensively and Pridie was sacrificed to protect a potential long term solution from rule 5 poachers and may not have been available anyway.
May hurt us this year but is basically the result of work left undone in prior years and the misfortune of injury to all 3 guys at the same time.
Few teams would have good solutions available in this circumstance.
even top teams are thin at positions. Look at the phils. If Vicky goes down for CF, they are picking between posednik and pieere. Behind that, I guess it is the other guy. A couple of MiL invite types, one of whom at least can’t even play CF.
At 2B, they lose Utley again (and that in no way was a surprise), and the backup is a guy that was a rule 5 last year (a mediocre utility guy). He got hurt, so the only thing left is their MiL SS who has never really played 2B before, but is getting a crash course.
Right, all teams are going to be thin at some postions, even good teams. Are the Mets even “thin” in CF anyway? Three of our top CF options are hurt. I think most teams 4th options in CF are going to be very weak too.
Oh and of course Agee brings up GMJ, and forgets to mention that we had Pagan as a backup that year. He did a great job filling in for Beltran in 2010.
Pagan did do a great job in 2010 as he did in the 2nd half of 2009 but no matter how you slice it, whether you consider GMJ to have been brought in to back up Pagan or to be the starter (as he was on opening day) it was a poor effort. Maybe the best one possible at the time but their was considerably more time to deal with the problem.
Beltran had been hurt in July the year before. His injury was as much a condition as it was an injury. The Mets own Doctors flat out told Beltran there was nothing they could do for him. Presumably this information would have been passed on to the GM.
I never got the sense that the Mets were upset they were caught off guard by the surgery in January because it left them vulnerable in CF. I’m 100% positive the s**t fit was because of the timing of the surgery as it related to season ticket renewels and sales.
And again that was January and the original injury was 6 months prior. This is the end of March.
If GMJ, in whichever capacity you choose was the best we could do with 9 months notice how much better can anyone be expected with just two weeks?
Hi T,
Yes, an organization has to look out for the long term interests of the team, both in the financial and personnel areas. But are things so bad that we can’t spend a little bit more just to have somebody on the bench who can step in for an injuried player? Not a super-sub but at least somebody to fill the hole. That’s also looking after the long term interests of the club rather than rushing up a prospect too soon, which isn’t in our long-term interests.
Why release Nick Evans or Willie Harris – too expensive?
Roster spots Joey,
We already lost a potential great bullpen arm in the rule 5 draft and had we kept Nick Evans (who was never given a shot here anyway) or Willie Harris we would have lost prospects regarded as better than the one we did lose (Rhymer Cruz)
The importance of having guys not on your roster in December cannot be overstated especially with so many slower developing prospects exposed to the rule 5 and guys in AAA and AA being injured (Havens, Kirk, Mejia) and not being able to provide depth but needing to be on the 40 or potentially lost like Flores was in the 2006-2007 off season.
Evans and Harris type guys are usually available as Pridie and Turner were and even if not will hurt just a little but nothing compared to how much it would hurt to lose a future All Star who is already in your system.
Hey Jim maybe just a food for thought point here….
You mentioned that Bay has to focus on what he is doing at the plate…
But every report about Bay’s woes seem to be based on his overthinking his batting mechanics.
Perhaps the struggling with CF is just what the doctor ordered in his case and it is the thing that takes his mind off the batting finally!
It’s a counterintuitive idea to say the least but perhaps thats what Bay needs, LESS focus on what he is doing at the plate?
Actually just in general his bat would not hurt us anywhere near as bad if he were playing CF. Here is the problem, who the heck plays LF then? Are we any better off?
No but your better off with a valdespin in LF where a real OF like bay can help cover ground for him and Duda than you are with valdespin in CF playing outfield for the first time and having to cover his space and Dudas….
Torres will probably be back before the season starts anyway so it’s really a moot point.
If Torres comes back and only lasts a month by then either Hairston or Kirk will be used.
I think for a kid like Jordany it might be easier to play CF than it would be LF. He has had no experience reading the ball off the bat in the OF. CF the biggest issue is covering the ground, he can do that.
And you ink it is better to put him in the position that must be able to read EVERY hit to the OF as opposed to just those on the left side?
Do a little reading of interviews of CF’s and guys switching back and forth. They all say that it is much easier to pick up the balls off the bat in CF as you are uh.. in the center. Ask a guy like Beltran what is tough about switching to a corner spot? The ball off the bat. Again, I say that if you are just throwing a guy out who has great speed it is easier for him to pick up balls off the bat in CF.
yeah but you have three times the grouund to cover….
Picking up the ball is fine but you still need to get a good jump off it and any mistakes picking the ball up because you do not play OF is amplified in Center by a factor of two compared to LF!
Metsie, as a guy tha like you around this site, can i give you an advice? as soon as you see anything from that guy fonzie look the other way, he’s nothing but an instigator who is baiting you into insulting him and you’re falling for it, you’re better than that, even though some of your comments are as long as a book, the CORE salute you and wouldn’t want you to get banned for being baited into.. move on, there have been a few of us who have been baited and gotten banned for it..
Baiting him into insulting him by providing counter opinions and facts to back up those opinions. Yeah around here that could be considered baiting.
except for the fact Fonzies facts and links make my case not his!
OK so that’s why you were baited into insulting him. Got it.
TRS you know full well he started with the insults and that when you insult me I will fire your childish bull right back at ya!
Your only supporting him because he is fighting me not because you believe anything he says!
Do you believe the 2008 team should be blown up for missing the playoffs by one game?
Did you think that in November of 2008? (forget hindsight!)
Do you believe Hunsicker was a more successful Met GM than Omar and Phillips?
You don’t actually agree with him your just supporting him because he is fighting me so you don’t have to!
thats fine but you know I will label you based on the company you keep!
Thats kind of how we met isn’t it?
Still can’t stop lying I see. I said Hunsicker has been a better GM, Not the better Met GM. I said I would take Hunsicker over the rest of your list. Maybe you should check his resume with Houston and Tampa. I already said Phillips had the most success of your list of Met GM’s. Spin, spin, spin. And I never insulted you once unless you think calling you a liar and BS aartist is an insult. Just look at those fine things you were saying to me.
yeah you say a lot of things….Most of it just childish bull!
I provided facts, you provided lies and insults.
Yep you provided MY facts!
Dummy!
LOL, so I am being held down by the company I keep. Would that mean you are being held under and drowning?
Now back to your point, I do not for a second believe that Sandy had nothing to do with those A’s teams. Was he the primary scout? Most likely not. However to hold him responsible now you have to give him credit then.
2nd do I believe the 2008 team should have been broken up after 2008? In hindsight? Most likely. At the time not completely. True to form I was open to the idea of change but only at the idea that the Mets would get better. Not as some type of revenge for putting the fans through hell. Looking back though it’s easy to tell from a more rational point of view instead of emotional at the time that team was not going to get it done and neither was Omar. The 2009 team wouldn’t have won the division healthy or unhealthy and the “great” 2007 and 2008 teams that only missed the playoffs by one game? Won 87 and 88 games. How often are 88 and 89 wins going to win the division anyway? Those teams were flawed and had more holes than we know. The only reason 2006 was such a great year, if you look how many players played above their career averages and had break out seasons? It was a good run of luck. Because of that the 2007 and 2008 teams went all in and came up craps, abandoning the plan of pitching, speed and defense for patch work and the biggest name.
If you really think so then I guess you are as dmb as he is!
I was going to give you more credit than that perhaps on this point I AM wrong!
I got it so because someone does not see it your way then they are dumb. Wow, there are a lot of dumb people in the world then and most of them more intelligent than you are.
Metsie, redefining the word dumb.
No you got it for agreeing with an idiot who thinks proof of my point makes his and that blowing up a team one win away from the playoffs is a good thing!
Not because you disagree with me!
But what you AGREE with!
Right so because he disagrees with you he is an idiot and because I believe anything he does that in turn makes me dumb.
Again, Metsie Mr. 157 redefining the word dumb.
Let me guess it is twister day in your class right?
No HE is stupid for making an argument and posting the evidence that supports the guy he is arguing with and calling it proof of his side!
An Idiot for thinking a team one win away from the playoffs should be blown up!
And your an idiot for not recognizing that is who your supporting!
In regards to your sandy point…
The difference then and now is he has no boss over him that the baseball guys report to!
Back then he did!
The baseball guy reported directly to sandy’s boss!
Those two made the BASEBALL decisions and ordered Sandy what to do and like a good marine he would SALUTE go YES SIR and get implement their decisions!
Here everyone reports to Sandy, baseball people, Business people!
SANDY makes the final decision, not his boss!
I know many would like to think jeff and Fred dictate final decisions to Sandy but thats simply not the case here!
But it was the case back then because the baseball guy reported directly to Sandy’s boss!
So let me make sure I got what you mean before you change it again like you did with Delgado/Reyes yesterday and your screw up with 157 not being at least 150 games. You honestly think that Sandy had NOTHING to do with the success of those A’s teams?
Honestly KNOW he had little to nothing to do with the baseball decisions before 1991, Two years after they won their WS!
Rigney reported to Sandy’s boss not sandy until 1991!
Assistant to the EXECUTIVE Vice president of Baseball Matters!
Sandy was just a VP not an Exec VP of baseball operations!
He was part of the operating team not the EVALUATION team!
Was he there? Sure!
So were a few Executive secretaries too do they get the lionshare of the credit for the build of the WS team of 89?
He did not make the baseball decisions for that team until 1991!
And since the date is relevant to WHEN they decided to spend what they spent to win that WS it is hardly plausible Sandy was the one who told them to spend what they did, he wasn’t deciding who to get and only negotiated what they got after the guy above him decided HOW MUCH Sandy cold pay him!
I showed the link, I showed the titles!
And the only proof showed against that is one that shows Sandy kept his mouth shut while others debated the players they would get or not get, pay or NOT pay!
You want to show he was making those decisions then I suggest you spend the rest of the class’ time looking for a something other than a quote from sandy saying “I kept my mouth shut when players were discussed” to make that point!
Hi Metsi,
That has been the point I’ve been making ever since you raised the point about the differences in the front office today as compared to years ago. It is not plausable for Sandy, with his limited knowledge of the insides of the games, could have been responsible for the draft picks and team development. Those issues had to be handled by others. Regarding who reported whom back in Oakland I do not know one way or the other but it does seem that Sandy was part of the team, not the head of it.
Of course, in New York it appears he has total control but if he determined how much to spend on the payroll I can’t believe the Wilpons would want to see the team and the fan base fall apart as it has. Whatever the Wilpons might be, they appear to look at the Mets with a passion beyond just a business venture. If Sandy didn’t fit into their mission statement for the team, why hire him, knowing so well what his credentials, backround and way of handling things are.
Like Perez and Castillo, was this just another bad signing?
Hi Joey.D
Actually it is plausible Sandy was responsible for the draftpicks. I showed a link yesterday that proved it. Quote, “Using Bill James Formulas, Sandy drafted Mark McGwire for his power potential and Jason Giambi for his on base percentage. Did he scout them? No, that would’ve been Walt Jocketty and Dave Weincek, but he made the pick.
Thy know full well they are dead wrong Joey…
They are just playing games and insisting I’m wrong hoping the more bullcrap they throw some might actually stick!
They got handed their surrender and in Fonxies case even provided the information needed to embarass himself!
Now it’s just the childish insults hoping to throw more crap on their embarassment so it’s harder to see in the comments amongst all the crap!
it’s an old tactic around here…
Not one insult from me. You have been the one with the insults because I showed you proof you were wrong. You can’t debate without insults. BS artist hate when they’re proven wrong.
Metsie, that guy is another SANDY lover.. you won’t win against them.. move on.. don’t waste your time or even insults, it’s not worth it… trust me..
I know alex…But I did win against him….With his help by posting that link! LOL
So lets even pretend you won a battle. That would make you what 1-1 Mr. 157?
LMAO. I waxed you on two seperate topics. All total I gave you 6 links, you gave 0.
If we waited till the non tender list came out and signed Werth we would have kept out #1 and Flores and won it, and maybe been able to package the guy we drafted for a better pitcher than Perez.
Werth sicked at the time thats why he was non-tendered!
And you two beautiful dreamers keep on dreaming!
You link showed Sandy kept his mouth shut thats all!
I kinda tought we were finished with this but you just won’t let a sleeping dog lie.
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/sandy-alderson-s-20-most-significant-moves-1.2411013#1
http://www.nctimes.com/sports/baseball/professional/mlb/padres/article_46bd16d6-ecc9-5caa-a030-893e3f6bf3e8.html
http://deadspin.com/5841798/deadspin-classic-the-forgotten-man-of-moneyball
http://dmick89.com/cubs/?p=900&fb_source=message
Maybe he just kept his mouh shut from 81-83 when he was just general counsil. I have at least a dozen more to sho he made the decisions long long long before 1992.
Thanks for the comment though! I’ve never been called beautiful by a man before. That’s kinda scary. Lol
2006 was a combination of some career years and the good fortune of an extremely weak NL East and a very mediocre NL in general but it was still dependent upon one of our division rivals furnishing us with a couple of their best players, no different than 1999 or 2000.
Without Piazza, Leiter, Delgado and La Duca we’re just as mediocre as everyone else especially with the pitching. Great pen but poor rotation. Doesn’t mean we couldn’t have won, just that the plan, if you can call it that, of expecting a divisional rival to help put us over the top is not exactly a plan grounded in sound baseball principles.
I guess you miss the point that the GMs job is to make sure we are BETTER than those WEAKER division rivals and HAVE guys on the roster who have career years!
Same could be said for any team you seem to think did it better!
I don’t miss that point at all. Opportunities should always be taken advantage of and if ever there was a year to go all in, 2006 was it and it wasn’t like that was an unknown to Minaya. He did employ exquisite timing.
He knew that Florida would have tough go of it having lost Delgado and La Duca to us and Philly as well having lost Wagner. The braves were in recycle mode and Washington occupying it’s acustomed spot at the bottom.
Where Minaya may have misjudges things is in thinking that he really had built a 97 win team when 1/2 the schedule was against teams that spent at least 2/3rds of the season under .500.
That may have caused a misjudgement as to how good we really were as well as the likelyood that we could be equally as good as we were with so much age and down our Ace in 2007. The late season surge by the Phillies could have served as a cautionary note as well. Probably he was seduced by being so close, can’t say I blame him we all were to some degree but counting on extreme age to replicate career or career average years is dodgy enough but to then import a ton of age on top of it even dodgier still in Alou and later Castillo.
The remade bullpen cost us for sure but we weren’t really 10 games worse than 2006. More like 5 but everyone else was better and that narrowed the gap too.
The signs were there but having been so close I can’t say I blame him, just that some of the off season moves were really too reckless with too much potential downside some of which we’re feeling right now.
So tell me who should he have gone all in with in 2006-2008?
And how does that fit into your hatred of monkeyball and spending?
I agree we should have tried to get another Ace in any of those years…
Who was there that we missed out on?
(Note not saying no one was there just not sure that anyone was either! Maybe you can put a name to that all in…)
I would have even given up a 1st round draft pick to sign him.
And if it meant we didn’t have some of the guys we are putting all our hopes in now but got us a World Series I would take that as well!
Yeah I would never have any qualms about giving up a #1 pick for an ace and I’m not sure there were any. I know Randy Wolf and Carlos Silva were FA’s and I wouldn’t have given up a #1 for those guys.
Derick Lowe I would have and that turned out to be a disaster. I prefer the trade and extension for an ace if possible but what he can bring you is worth taking risk as opposed to say a LFer where you could forge a LH/RH or Off/Def platoon between two minimum salaried “imperfect” players.
The reality is you have to get into a position where your able to wait if the right guys not available rather than screw yourself with a Lowe, Silva, Lackey or Perez that not only cost you baseball games, are practically or totally untradeable, tie up a roster spot and payroll and cost you a draft choice on top of it.
Go type B on a 1-2 year deal, get creative rather than reach and pray.
So basically FA was bare and the only real option was making a trade for one with a ton of prospects….
Which begs the question who were our biggest prospects we were holding on to so dearly?
F-Mart?
Pelfrey?
Humber?
Guerra?
Hell I if we gave away our top 4 prospects in 2007 for an Ace, Omar would be called a genius right now wouldn’t he?
Well it probably cost us the Santana deal if we did. I have no idea but what we did do was give up a #1 and lose a potential starting catcher by signing Alou. Those pieces could have been used down the road to get CC as Milwaukee did in beating us out for the Wild Card in 2008 and then been turned into two #1 picks if we didn’t sign him or if we do there’s our 2nd ace.
Better idea anyway than spending those pieces on a 40 year old everyday OFer.
Do you really think it would have taken our top 4 picks to get one? really?
Even if just the top two you still get Santana!
And who is going to get you that 300BA and 40 RBis if not Alou!
the reason we signed him is because we HAD no one to play there and he was supposed to platoon because there was no way for Omar to have drafted and developed a kid in 2 short years to play there!
Well you don’t solve problems by making mistakes. Alou at no cost other than money is a brilliant move. Alou at the cost of a #1 pick and a 21 year old catcher with 21 HR’s in A+ is a horrible move.
The real problem with that move is it was done before the non tenders came out, before the rule 5, before SF had to offer him arb, before trades could be considered and the foolish notion that Alou was considered a platoon player is laughable. He was the starter with a defensive caddy in Chavez. Well conceived plan and very well executed but the thought process of losing a #1 pick and a top prospect for a year or two without even checking any other possabilities is assinine.
Philly picked up Jason Werth a couple weeks later off the non tender list, got 4 excellent years out of him and then got 2 #1 picks, we got 100 games out of Alou over two years, lost a #1 pick and a top prospect…………and oh yeah, lost the post season to Philly the next two years as well by 1 game each year.
That difference in those two moves was easily the difference in both pennant races and the swing of the picks/prospect will continue to provide the Phillies an advantage over us.
How do you think they get to keep trading for Lidge, Blanton, Lee, Halliday, Oswalt and Pence? By pissing their draft choices away?
You mention some A ball catcher and a 1st rounder…
Got any names for those two?
It’s only a mistake if your more worried about 2011 than you are about 2007 and 2008!
Was Omar even here in 2011 to worry about it?
If he hadn’t had Alou in the lineup in 2007 we he might have gotten fired even sooner!
He won quite a few games for us with his bat!
Alou only played in 100 games over two years and it’s not like injuries to him could be described as bolts of lightning coming out of the blue. He spent a lot of his 20′s and 30′s on the DL. Even people in favor of the move were concerned about the injury history. The fact that other options weren’t even considered before he was signed is really short sighted.
If Omar simply waits a week to sign him SF would have had to offer him arbitration or we keep our #1 pick. With the Giants going hot and heavy after Zito and Alou being 40 years old and his father being replaced as manager it is very unlikely that they offer him arb.
We might have taken Cecil, Hunter, Lubek or Zimmerman who would be a big help right now. Or maybe we take d’Anaurd, Mike Giancarlo Stanton or Freddie Freeman. Fact is no knows if we would have gotten something or gotten something to trade. What you can say is we almost certainly gave up the pick when we didn’t have to. We also lost a roster spot by signing Alou before the winter meetings and lost our best catching prospect.
I recogonize that to you Minaya could do no wrong and Alderson nothing right but I can’t see how anyone can defend this.
Philly didn’t rush into things that off season. They waited for the non tender list to come out and signed Jason Werth (800 G’s) and got 4 great seasons out of him including two in which they beat us out by 1 game. Then got two #1 choices FOR him.
Even if everything else that off season goes exactly the same the difference in Werth vs. Alou was well more than the difference of 1 game in 2007 and 2008 and probably cost us having something to trade for a Halliday or lee as well by losing the #1 pick and the top catching prospect.
You have to have something to trade, we turned a top catching prospect and a #1 pick into Alou who we couldn’t trade and only played 25% of the games he was here for and it’s not like one can say that wasn’t a well known risk.
Properly balancing risk and reward as well as present and future needs is what made this move such a failure for us and such a win for the Phillies. Had they signed Alou and we sign Werth we win, they lose.
So, there’s your ace.
Started out in LF, moved onto the DL and headed on for retirement. Now he’s a GM for one of the Dominican winter League teams. Escogido, the winners of the Caribbean World Series.
Hope his quad has healed by now.
Yeah and we MIGHT have not been in it in September without him, thats the problem with Maybes and coulda’s!
The 1st rounder you complain about losing was not going to solve your problems with the starting rotation in time to make Perez not an ootion to sign anynore!
But again if you want an ace why wait till the last second every year and sift through the various piles of crap offered up?
What kind of a plan is that?
That’s a good plan to prevent yourself from ever getting an ace.
The Maddox, CC, Lee type only come around once every five years or so. Many other require having the goods to trade for. That’s how we got Cone, Did, Darling, Ojeda, Santana, Leiter and Hampton.
From people we drafted and signed 2-4 years earlier.
*Sid
and I ask again name the ACE he could have drafted in 2005 and developed in time!
You say he ignored it but he didn’t he just didn’t have the time to have him ready!
He took Pelfrey in 2005 he WAS filling an SP hole in 2007!
Are you suggesting he should have gotten TWO aces in that draft?
Name the second guy!
Name the name say the guy who never does. OK.
How about Cliff Lee. Phillies got him in July 2009 for a package of minor leaguers. Who says every acquisition has to be at ticket selling time?
See by signing and resigning the wrong guys you wind up not having the goods when the right guys come available.
Or perhaps Blanton, Harden Wolf or Sabathia who were traded at the 2008 deadline.
But again you have to have the goods in the farm to get them. Presumably the guys we could have drafted with picks given up for Appier, Cedeno, Weathers, Floyd or Alou could have formed a nice package for one of these guys. Don’t you think?
your the one bitching about not taking a path you can’t identify not me!
All I did was say who to trade and let the market set who we get for them!
Which is all a GM does! Come up with some expendable names to go around the league and make calls to other GMs and ask what he might get for those names!
Your actually claiming there was an option there that even you admit didn’t exist and your solution was to draft a kid and rush him up in a year which you always complain about being done with pelfrey!
SO pick a point you want to remain…
He should have drafted and rushed some UNNAMED kid to fill perez’ spot or he rushed Pelfrey because he couldn’t make a pick when he was with Montreal that the Mets could put in his and Perez’ place!
Don’t forget that importing a guy is pretty much the only way we’ve ever had any starting pitching since 1969 and 1973. Gooden, Swan and Jones we developed. Darling, Sid, Ojeda, Cone, Leiter, Hampton, El Duque, were all trades.
Pedro, Glavine, were FA’s. Guys like Rick Reed or RA Dickey that don’t cost anything are rare but not unheard of. Chris Carpenter is a guy that was just released (2002). Adam Wainwright was traded. Joel Pinero was a plan B in the preseason before 2009. Got 2/16 and we would have picked up a supplemental round pick by “swapping” Ollie for Pinero lessening the risk of the difference in performance which is obvious Omar was concerned about with Perez just to begin with.
Of course he could have kept Vargas as an option for the 2nd half of 2009 and just let Perez go.
You asked me for names I gave you names. Five of them. Now you bitch that I gave you names.
Fine, have it your way. don’t stockpile any talent to have to trade for an ace, just sign/resign guys and keep shoveling s**t against the tide.
At least that plan works when you combine it with a division rival giving us 2 of their best players.
Unfortuantely when they don’t it leads to seasons were out of it by Sept 1st like we have been 17 times out of 23.
Good plan.
a Trade in 2009 would have replaced Perez in 2007 and 2008?
A trade AFTER resigning Perez would have made perez’ contract go away?
Wow I didn’t know he had a time machine in his back pocket!
All those guys you mention at trade bait were already gone I suppose the time machine would be used to stop those moves as well?
Your clearly trying to avoid the point by rearranging and confusing the concept.
That’s cool, carry on.
No your the one confusing the point by saying Omar didn’t fix Phillips Mistakes and didn’t trade for guys AFTER he already was forced to sign Perez to that contract!
Perez was a bad signing no one denies this but you have so far failed to come up with an option OMAR had to fix that problem without the use of a time machine or an Oracle!
And your blaming Omar for not having either!
It’s a common mistake those who use hindsight for their facts often make!
Sure He could have gotten Lee and we would have had a 190 Million dollar Payroll last year because by the time Lee got here you would still be on the hook for Perez!
Same with the deadline trades you mentioned!
I AGREE I would have made ANY of those deals!
Lee would have been good not just for 2011 but this year as well!
But 2009 would have been largely the same because in 2009 we lost half our team to injury and there was no way without an oracle to predict that!
And Perez would STILL have been a wasted signing because you solution came about AFTER he was siged or two years before Omar ever got here!
Omar wasn’t forced to resign Perez, he chose to resign him based largely on the lack of other options available to him which I clearly stated was more on Phillips than Minaya.
But Omar was also well aware of when Perez would have to be reupped and could have been proactive about it. Trade for Wolf at the 2008 deadline for instance and not trade away Jason Vargas. Let Perez go and keep the pick which provides options for later or swap Perez by letting him go and signing Pinero and letting Wolf go and getting a pick for him too. That’s two well regarded prospect that could put you in the conversation when a Halliday comes around.
Perez at 3/36 wouldn’t be palatable to anyone in those conversations even if he was pitching well because those deals are about cost and control years.
Except for the fact that my links proved Sandy was making baseball decisions long before 1992 with Oakland. Like drafting Mcgwire in 1984. Nothing in the link I posted proved otherwise, but you keep grasping at those straws and you stay classy.
Except for the fact they didn’t!
Except for the fact that they did prove you wrong! Still waiting for that proof Sandy didn’t make baseball decisions before 1992. I’ll be here when you find it.
You gave the proof he didn’t why not go read it?
He kept his mouth shut…UNTIL 1992!!!!!!!!
yeah you think he stayed quite for a year and then threw his weight around and went against what his boss decided!
With thinking like that you should have a long career at the fry station in McDonalds!
Only no where in that article did it say he kept his mouth shut until1992. It did however say he drafted McGwire using Bill Jame formulas. Which again happened in 1984. He didn’t throw his weight around he was respectful. But everybody here knows that you always put words in other peoples mouth.
Insults still can’t help you. It just shows how immature you are when you lose a debate.
No where in that article did it say Ringney reported to him or that he had anything to do with mcGwire in it either!
Rigney’s name wasn’t even mentioned, nor did I say that. It sure did say Sandy drafted McGwire, and Giambi too.
oh I know Alex…I was just busy working on a web site and gave him some of his crap back at him looking to see if his mommy made him shut off the computer and forced him to bed! LOL
Wow, Alex the biggest baiter on this site is calling me a baiter. Hilarious. Not only does Metsie make stuff up but now Alex follows suit. Not surprised.
That is a great point!!!
Similar to the Tigers not want Cabrera to be a DH; keeping him in the field keeps him focused. Maybe putting in center can just shift is thinking a little bit.
I’ll argue that depth and injuries has been a problem going back to even 2006.
Look at what happened…Pete and DL’uque went down before the playoffs…if either was healthy we wouldn’t have needed to start Trach, Maine or Perez. If we had some bullpen depth, we wouldn’t have needed to trade Nady away and get stuck with Mota and Shawn Green.
If we had pitching depth in 07 and 08, then w overused and killed the bullpens and had nobody who could close games. If there was any pitching depth, Omar wouldn’t have gotten Jedi mind Tricked by Bore-ass in to signing Perez into the horrible deal.
This is Omar’s big folly. They had a great run in 06 and came close…but instead of expecting the fact that were wasn’t enough depth to keep it going, he caved to fan pressure and picked up risky players hoping that it could hold together instead of taking a step back and letting the system develop a little.
This is the only reason why I give Alderson any kind of a pass…but next year, there should be no reason why he can’t make some legit moves to get the team competitiveness.
Precisely USMF….
In juries are a natural part of the baseball season, every team has them and how young or old your roster is, doesn’t seem to matter.
Just look at the list of younguns we have on the IR!
If we have more than anyone thats not a sign we are too old or have injured proned players, it’s a sign we have very bad coaching from a strength and conditioning standpoint and that we need to work on that aspect a little more importantly than bringing guys out to a field that is made up to have CitiField dimensions the second day of training camp and holding a HR derby!
I just wonder where all those guys who blames Omar for the 2009 inuries are now that Sandy is going through the same thing despite his larger youth contingent?
The depth isn’t nearly as big an issue right now, so long as Torres gets back soo enough. If he hits complication or is out for a long period of time, it’ll become an issue. But at least the answers are guys like Valdy, Den Dekker or Kirk, prospects with some promise, and not scrap heap rejects like Cory Sullivan, Jeremy Reed, and Emil Brown.
Hi Fonzi,
Could you post that link again regarding Sandy and the draft picks – I think I missed it.
But I do remain cautious as to whom receives credit for what in the media nowadays. How often does Paul DePodesta get the press coverage in New York? Why is Tannenbaum coming up so often with the Jets since yesterday when he handled only the legal and financial part of the deal?
Remember what you said regarding Wikipedia and the press being wrong in alluding to that Sandy only adopted money ball in 1995 and not before? Let’s say I am incorrect, then the same principle could be applied to that article.
But I think I do have a very plausable point about Sandy being unable to make the picks himself based on his own baseball knowledge (or the use of computer analysis) rather than his relying on the concensus of his baseball people instead. He just did not have the background while others in the organization did.
Kind of similar to my situation at work. Our new boss was hired because he is much more astutute in the legalities of contracts and budgets related to our type of work than those in the past. But, at the same time, he appears quite limited in actually knowing how to accomplish the services our office is responsible for doing (am keeping that information hush hush in case he reads this LOL). More is dependent upon us in the decision recommendations than before.
Again, sorry I missed that article and thanks for forwarding it again. I’ll look it over and let you know my thoughts.
Joe
http://www.usatoday.com/educate/college/careers/CEOs/8-24-05.htm
I also posted it in the other thread, and answered your post from earlier today.
I’ll repost for you.
Reply
Fonzie13 March 22, 2012 at 1:27 pm .
Hey Joey, you’re now comparing the NFL and MLB and trying to make assuptions based on the GM position of an NFL franchise. The Jets have a Lawyer for a GM and the Giants have a Footbal guy as their GM, so whats the point?
Paul DePodesta had no professional baseball experience when the Indians hired him, He’s every bit the computer analyst as Sandy was. Neither you or Metsie have shown one piece of evidence that shows Sandy wasn’t involved with trades, draftpicks or free agent signings with Oakland. All you showed was that he came without professional experience and relied on others for information and learned from others which I’m not disputing. He did however make baseball decisions long before 1992 and until you show eveidence that someone else made those decisions all we are going to do is keep posting the same old same old.
http://www.usatoday.com/educate/college/careers/CEOs/8-24-05.htm
In this article it shows that you are correct, he leaned on others, he kept his mouth shut, he learned from those around him. Notice in the other parts that Metsie refuses to acknowledge is that it says “Using Bill James formulas which even you know is the grandfather of sabermetrics, Sandy Alderson drafted Mark McGwire on his power potential and Jason Giambi on hs on base percentage. McGwire was drafted in 1984, that’s long before, 8 years to be exact that Metsie claimed Sandy started making decisions.
It’s no different than any other organization in MLB. The scouts scout, and the GM’s make the calls with input from the entire staff, the GM’s make the tradesFA signings and draftpicks, with input of the entire staff. Assistant GM’s sometimes orchestrate the trades like Minaya did with Mike Piazza but you can’t tell me that he didn’t make any trades or sign free agents based on your assumption. Until you show me evidence that he didn’t and show me the proof(links with the person responisble) that someone else made baseball decisions from 83-92 all we are going to do is go back and forth and disagree with eachother. All you’re giving me is what you assume would be non plausible.
Talk to you later J.D.
yep and all that link says is Sandy kept his mouth shut in the 80s!
Joey posted those same quotes from it before you even came up with it to prove our point!
And you then posted the link and proved what we have said is true to the rest of the posters here!
Also Joey while your saying he didn’t make those decisions base on lack of experience, you’re failing to realized he is the founding father of the saber minded executives. He didn’t make decisions based on scouting for we know he wasn’t. He made his decisions on analytics. Depodesta is also an Ivy League graduate with a degree in economics. He didn’t even play college ball, Sandy did. He was no more experienced than Sandy was coming into the sport.
It’s amazing how much time and effort some people will devote to a ridiculous arguement around here (as if it will ever change someones mind!) who the hell cares about what happened in 1991 in Oakland? not relevant to the 2012 Mets.
And of course a GM does not do everything themselves. None do, nor are they supposed to. The boss sets the direction (guidelines/organizational philosophy), then hires people that are experts (or should be) in their area, and turn them loose. Sure, they will have big moves run past them for approval, but that does not mean they have to think them up or do all the leg work.
and even the draft, outside of maybe the first round, is someone elses responsibility. But the GM should supply the framework (philosophy and $$ available).
with everything a GM is responsible for these days, they are just senior management. and as with any manager, they are responsible for what happens, even if they didn’t have a direct hand in it (or know in advance).
I’m just playing Metsie’s game. I’ll play as long as he wants to play.
maybe Joe can make a thread for you 2 guys (and anyone else that wants to join!) called “what did Sandy know and when did he know it”.
The issue was that 1989 A’s were used to say Sandy has spent when he had the chance…
Only problem was Sandy wasn’t in charge of building those A’s in 1989!
thats where it had relevance to today!
Because it was stated that Sandy has always spent when he could but history from his running the A’s all on his own and his time with the padres have showed he never has really spent a lot!
Has done quite a bit of cutting in his day though!
Whats the padres salary these days?
Who’s the one in charge in SD? Payroll went up 3 different years under Sandy there and went down in his 3rd and his 5th and final. Sandy did build those A’s teams and had the highest payroll one year. You can’t dispute facts. Even though you try, you still haven’t succeeded.
so you think that everyone would do the same things today (in a very different environment) that they supposedly did 23 years ago? And that no one ever evolves in their thinking? and that conditions don’t change?
bottom line, he was involved in the FO when the team spent a lot. Then when budget $ available was slashed by the owners. Then with other teams that had limited payrolls.
no one can say what the hell he will spend once he is given room to spend it.
and even if he did or didn’t back with the A’s, it still has no real relevance to the Mets in 2012..
Stick it’s nothing more than anti Sandy hog wash. The want to take him to task for cutting payroll but refuse to acknowledge he made the baseball decisions in Oakland when they were a top payroll team Sandy only gets blame for lowering payroll in Oakland. I enjoyed playing this game.
Been saying this for a while. Not only do we not know what Sandy’s budget is we don’t know how much he will spend or who he will spend it on yet. We will soon enough.
And you think someone with 20 years of cutting spending wherever he has been and has started off here also doing that has changed his way of thinking?
What is the more logical conclusion?
He has changed and this cosistency with history is only temporary?
Or that he is doing what he has always done and hasn’t thought about changing?
This coming from someone who said that it doesn’t matter how many games Reyes missed because he was still as productive in 120 games. Then when that situation was applied a couple of years ago said he did not care what Delgado’s production was if he was going to miss that many games.
yep batting Champ and leader in RS somewhere around 14th in the entire league!
How many of those guys in the league played a full season yet still couldn’t score as much as Reyes in 126?
You are still ignoring how you said yourself that you did not care about production if the guy couldn’t keep himself on the field. Your quote, not mine. Now when it fits your point you switch sides. MR. 157. What a phony.
What was delgado leading the league in that year?
Pray tell!
I said if you bothered to read….Reyes’ missed time didn’t matter if he was leading the rest of the team in RS, 14th in the LEAGUE in RS and the league batting champ!
What did Delgado lead the league in the years he was injured?
Get it now?
I doubt it because I know you and Fonzie aren’t really trying to make a point just baiting me!
And I don’t really care what you think I said!
Cause your limited interpretation of what you THINK I meant really doesn’t hold a lot of weight!
No, but I think thats exactly what Sandy is doing!
Hi Fonzie,
Thanks for the link. As Metsi pointed out, that was also the one I used to make my counter-point about Sandy. Talk about two people reading the same thing and coming to completely different conclusions – that’s the two of us in a nutshell!
Now the article indeed quote Sandy as saying he really knew nothing of the game. It said he relied on other people by keeping his mouth shut. But then it just goes on to attribute all personnel moves to Sandy in general. There is no mention about Sandy slowly going from keeping his mouth shut and learning from others to taking any sort of hands-on approach regarding the molding of the team from the point of player personnel assessment.
Regarding Paul DePodesta, the link I submitted yesterday quoted Sandy on leaning on him for his baseball knowledge and insight. Yes, he is a fan of sabremetrics but as I mentioned, it seems that Paul uses both disciplines in his assessments and that advanced computer analysis is nowhere the end-all of things.
And as far as NFL to MBL general managers, the point is that both require men who know how to financially run a team and men who know how to get the right players. Tannenbaum has little to do in selecting player personnel above the financial and legal ramifications it has on the franchise and negotiating with other general managers on those types of issues. He was not the one who got Denver to agree to what draft pick levels they would accept to give up for Tebow. That’s how it seems it works in baseball too even though putting together the makeup of a football team is entirely different from that of one on the diamond.
Will still look for that article about the general managers and their reliance one way or the other on advanced computer analysis. I do know that it makes for a great game of stratomatic!
Joe
It should also be noted Joey that the article is from 2005 and it’s quick description of how Sandy got INTO the business was an historic aside and most of the comments about what he built were in regards to the A’s post 1992 where Sandy had full control by then!
Joey did you do selective reading? I’m guessing you bypassed the mentioning of Sandy drafting Mark McGwire. Any way, no one has yet to show me he wasn’t involved in baseball decisions before 1992. He drafted McGwire in 1984. That’s all there is to it. I’ll defer when you show me evidence that he wasn’t. Assumptions are not facts.
Yeah he SIGNED his decison into being while he was being quiet!
ROFLMAO Know when your beat and just stop it already!
Too bad it was the Montreal Expos that drafted McGwire in 1981. Lucky for any future suitors He opted to go to USC instead
He was still drafted and signed by Oakland. I don’t see why that’s too bad. Metsie when I get beat I’ll admit it. I’m not like you. When you prove your claim, I’ll agree with you.
Fonz, You might as well just accept that to the fans of Phillips and Minaya Alderson has done nothing and hopefully (for them) he will continue to do nothing cause the last thing they want is to see him become successful.
Meanwhile people fall all over themselves to find things to credit Phillips or Minaya for that they didn’t even do or seek to make excuses for their every mistake. Claiming nonsense like at least by trading or signing Mo Vaughn, Alomar, Appier, Bernitz, Weathers, Cedeno , Zeile, means “Phillips was trying to win.” Trying to win he may have been but the reality is he was handed an 88 win team with the 8th smallest payroll (including 2 expansion teams) made a couple of huge salary dump type deals and stole a large part away from the future and was successful only because of other peoples players and the owners checkbook. After taking over an 88 win team with plenty of room to add payroll (no bloated contracts) he won 88, again then 97, 94, 82, 75 and 66. and led us right back to where we were 4 years before he took over. Left to his own devices all he could do was trade or spend away the future. Luckilly he was s**tcanned before he traded Wright and Reyes.
Minaya tried to do it the same way Phillips did but he didn’t inherit John Olerud, Rick Reed, Rey Ordonez, Bernard Gilkey, Lance Johnson, Bobby Jones, Carl Everett, Jay Payton, Jason Isringhausen, Todd Hundley, Benny Agbayani, or Edgardo Alfonzo. He couldn’t leverage his salary dumps with the Marlins into two quick 90 win seasons cause he didn’t inherit an 88 win one, the best he could do was one but he tried non the less and bloated back up the payroll and clogged it up with useless desperate reaches that he chose simply because there was no one else. Nontheless to the tried and true monkeyballer it was nothing but injuries and fate that caused us to win as many as 90 games just once. Non monkleyballers identify pitching as the reason. Shame Minaya didn’t have much to work with when the Marlins were selling Josh Beckett but it had systematically been stripped of anything more than potentially useful during the Phillips years and after Kazmir Reyes and Wright the next level of talent added to the farm was Heilman, Pagan, Wiggenton, Linstrom, Owens, Milledge, Gomez. After that, zippo. Not much your going to be able to with that. Potentially useful younger players who could have held the fort for us had been sent elsewhere for nothing or next to nothing including Bay, Mora, Izzy, Nelson Cruz, and Scott Kazmir in search of the quick fix the way heroin users used to comb the street of the LES and crack heads guarded the entrance to bridges and tunnels in the 80′s all to the same effect. One good high followed by complete and utter despair.
All the more reason for the slower and more patient build up instead of the Phillips Plan. Minaya didn’t inherit a team on the rise, with a farm, besides He had the talent to do it the right way. He didn’t have to settle for the quick fix only option out there for the next 3-5 years. The short term thinking where you convince yourself that a 40 year old everyday player won’t get and hurt, and 4 40 year old pitchers are all you need in the rotation or that Castillo was 25 again, with fresh knees, Perez could be Koufax, he took some time to develop too didn’t he? Bay will be no different in our park and lineup than he was in Boston even though he is now entering the time frame that marks the start of decline in 99.9% of hitters over 100 year of baseball history excluding the steroid era.
Of course Minaya could have been concerned that the monkeyballer was coming after HIM if he didn’t buy buy buy the quick fix media friendly way that endears those unable to think for themselves to an utterly proven failure of a concept in both theory and even worse in reality.
thi from a guy who thinks the GM doesn’t draft players the Dir of Scouting does…
And you are so far off base with your assumption we want Sandy to fail!
If thats what we wanted we wouldn’t be complianing about what he has done!
He would be giving us what we want according to you!
We want him to succeed!
But he is not going to if he keeps on letting All Stars go for squat and using the money he saved to sign three Armando Benitez’ in the Bullpen!
So you want him to sign a bunch of expensive short shelf life guys, trade the future out of the farm (like Phillips, not Minaya did) and wait for the Marlins cash crunch to hit, ride the wave for a couple of years and slip back to 20,25 or 30 games under .500 like we’ve done three times in the last 20 years.
OK.
and you want him to trade All Stars for AA maybes straight up!
Your way takes 50 years..Will you look back and write a piece that you repeat for a year when that happens about how syupid you were for thinking your way works?
Your idea is to stage Old Timers Day 81 times a year, then blame injuries or the latest one…………..fate, for yet another uncompetitive season (17 out of the last 23 if your counting) unless you can convince a division rival to hand over a couple of their best players again.
That’s the only way monkeyball has ever gotten us to the postseason, or even close to it.
Hi Fonzi,
Why do I believe Sandy through use of computer analysis was not the one who decided to draft McGwire and others? Well, I think everyone will find the attached quite fascinating and will provide the answers:
http://www.baseballexaminer.com/FAQs/scouting_faq.htm
As you can see, it takes a baseball mind to evaluate the potential of raw talent and that a grading system had been in place long before that. It’s not based on one’s statistics, whether traditional or advanced – it’s based on noticing one’s raw mechanics and movements. As the author points out, one could be the best player on his own team and look good against opposing pitchers or hitters but that means little once he becomes pro and plays everyday against a higher level of competition. No computer analysis or formula can determine those characteristics, especially since the point is emphasized that his statistical record against others is meaningless since he is playing against a lower caliber of players. And one does not need a computer to add up one’s total grade to see if he has the potential to be that five star player.
That’s why I strongly profess that a non-baseball man can cast the team’s pick selection on draft day but the determination of who to pick and who should come ahead of others in that pick is made for him. The grading can only be based on one’s observed mechanics and perceived ability to improve on them – it is not based on comparing one’s stats against those of others.
Your turn! LOL.
Take care,
Joe
Okay Joey, now you’re countering with a totally different argument. I know exactly what scouts do.
They gather the information, they go from city to city to watch these kids play. They give their opinion, the GM makes the call.
From what most people are saying across the blogs, the GM usually only calls the shot on the 1st and maybe the 2nd round picks and then they bolt and leave it up the scouting director.
Many have different opinions. Do you know for sure that Theo Epstein, Josh Burns, Jon Daniels and other executives that like Alderson are GM’s without prior professional experience, do not make the calls on draft picks.
Are you just assuming because guys like the aforementioned and Alderson don’t have scouting backrounds can’t make the call. I already showed you the link that says Sandy made the call on at least 2 picks, McGwire and Giambi
. So far no one has shown me any evidence he didn’t make decisions before 1992. Alderson, Epstein, Daniels,etc…were not mentioned in that link. You just showed me what I already knew.
Your turn! lol
Hi Fonzi,
Sandy joined the Oakland club in 1981 as it’s legal counsel, a non-related baseball function. Two years later he became the team’s General Manager.
Honestly, it is too unrealistic to expect that in two to three years one whose expertise is in law, finance and administration can suddenly go from admitting having no knowledge of the professional aspects of the game and sitting behind a desk to suddenly become capable of making such calls on their own. You are aware of the skill, insight and instinct a scout needed before I posted that article. There is no way an individual with Sandy’s background could have that same knowledge and capability of his scouting staff and directors, let alone the further capability that is required for him then make those final important decisions.
So I’m sorry my good friend, but we are indeed in opposite camps on this one. Education and years of hands on experience matters and the more complex the job, the more of both that is needed. It just doesn’t work any other way no matter what the profession, let alone sports. That is not speculation. That is just part of the learning experience.
Nightie night!
Hi Fonzi,
Another point of disagreement we had was your belief that with advanced computer analysis Sandy was then able to make the final decisions regarding who to draft and who got priority over the other. This is what you said:
“Also Joey while your saying he didn’t make those decisions base on lack of experience, you’re failing to realized he is the founding father of the saber minded executives. He didn’t make decisions based on scouting for we know he wasn’t. He made his decisions on analytics.”
That’s why I repeat
“As you can see, it takes a baseball mind to evaluate the potential of raw talent and that a grading system had been in place long before that. It’s not based on one’s statistics, whether traditional or advanced – it’s based on noticing one’s raw mechanics and movements. As the author points out, one could be the best player on his own team and look good against opposing pitchers or hitters but that means little once he becomes pro and plays everyday against a higher level of competition. No computer analysis or formula can determine those characteristics, especially since the point is emphasized that his statistical record against others is meaningless since he is playing against a lower caliber of players. And one does not need a computer to add up one’s total grade to see if he has the potential to be that five star player.
“That’s why I strongly profess that a non-baseball man can cast the team’s pick selection on draft day but the determination of who to pick and who should come ahead of others in that pick is made for him. The grading can only be based on one’s observed mechanics and perceived ability to improve on them – it is not based on comparing one’s stats against those of others.”
Hey Fonzie, do you realize instead of first run comments, I’m now subjecting others to “summer repeats”?
Hi Joey. D
Sorry I ididn’t see this yesterday. If you scroll up in this thread, You’ll see 3 more links that backs my point and I have plenty more where that came from. It shows that everyhing you’ve been countering with is wrong.
Hi Fonz,
Read those links when you posted them and you might scroll back to see some of my counterpoints.
We obviously see things from a different perspective and seem entrenched in our ways even when it comes to interpreting the points being made by those articles and the manner in which the authors were writing them. Again, one saying Sandy signed certain players does not mean he was responsible for anything more than that – the signing. There was no mention about Sandy having any role in evaluating the talent and what went into making his decision. All that you read was writer’s prose.
The article I attached was more in-depth and clearly indicates how statistics compiled by a potential prospect and subsequent computer analysis is meaningless. If Sandy made his decision based on the point ratings compiled by the scouts, how does he come to a final conclusion when there are some that are within the same points of one another? No, that final decision has to come at the recommendation of the baseball men.
Hope you also scrolled down to see some more of my postings. Fonz, I would really like to know what your thoughts are regarding my question about Yogi Berra in 1957, when Yogi said he had a lousy year but the sabers say differently – and whose opinion you would then place more value with. Also gave my thoughts about what was discussed in the 30/30 segment (yes, it went on at 5:00 AM as promised) and today’s broadcast and noted the almost entire lack of reference to any statistic. Those points have to be weighed in against what a computer comes up with.
Know these won’t change your opinion but curious about your counterpoints to my counterpoints to your counterpoints and both of us saying the other one is wrong (and with that, I just hope there is no third alternative that says WE’RE BOTH WRONG!)
Another bad outing by Pelf today.
Bonjouir,
I’m guessing you skipped right over Bill Gayton and Grady Fusons comments. Scouts who claim they learned how to scout from Sandy. Something you said wasn’t plausible.The 1st link was to show he was making decisions before 1992. This one below shows that what you said is not impossible. Now the scouting argument is one I never disputed. You totally changed the original disagreement to fit your argument. I’ll be honest. I didn’t even know these 2 scouts learned how and what to look for in a player from Sandy.
http://www.nctimes.com/sports/baseball/professional/mlb/padres/article_46bd16d6-ecc9-5caa-a030-893e3f6bf3e8.html
I watched the game on the St Louis station. Pelfrey got off to a pretty good start but then the wheels fell off in the third. Typical Pelf!
Oh and I forgot to answer the Yogi question. It wasn’t a good year for Yogi’s standards but if we got 24 Hr’s and 82 RBI’s from our Catcher, I’ll sign on the dotted line for that. Not great but a decent year. He did miss 20 games. He finished 14th in the MVP voting and that was way before sabermetrics existed, so the writers thought he had a good year.
Grady Fuson Hired in 1995 not before 1992 when Sandy actually took control
So again your links do not show anything about what Sandy knew Pre 1992 and he taught them how to scout for MONEYBALL nothing more!
All the guys and articles you have posted are all POST 1992 that you are trying to attribute to Sandy knowing something pre-1992 or that his statistics were even being used before 1992 when which is when he took over the baseball operations!
Joey D – This guy is just going to keep insisting his lie is a truth and keep going until you give up which he will claim as a victory and proof he “HANDED IT” to you or you finally say you agree with him because your bored senseless arguing with a guy who posts any link from 1995 on that shows Sandy in charge of something as if it is something about pre-1992 Athletics!
Ignore him already he will go away!
Guess you missed something. cLooks like 1985 to me.
SAN DIEGO —— When Bill Gayton went to work as an area scout for the Oakland Athletics in 1985, he didn’t yet realize that his boss, A’s general manager Sandy Alderson, was on the cutting edge of evaluating and drafting baseball players.
I did go away but you had to pick it back up Saturday morning so I joined back in with ya.
Great evidence there….
DID NOT REALIZE…what his BOSS was doing…..
Which means he had no clue what Sandy was doing in 1985!
Gayton: Sorry your Honor I can’t testify to what Sandy was doing in 1985!
FONZIE: See proof of what Sandy was doing!
Yes it was great evidence, I know. I’m glad you finally decided to admit the truth. Key words,1985, Alderson and boss. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
And you enjoy the rest of that La La Land life you think is reality!
Hi Fonz,
Forgot to mention one point raised in the Times article involving the Padres G.M. and his relationship to Sandy.
Both the article and the Padre G.M. point heavily to statistical analysis. The article also points out that in his first year as G.M. Sandy picked Terry Steinbach and followed the next two years with Marc McGwire and Jose Canseco. Again, the point raised in that article about how scouts evaluate potential draft picks that STATISTICS COMPILED BY THESE POTENTIAL PICKS are meaningless simply because of the inferior talent they faced. So if Sandy relies on cold and extensive data to come to his conclusions, he did not, and never will, have any such tools to work with.
So there are holes in those stories which I feel the authors don’t recognize – just as you believe there are holes in stories that suggest Sandy didn’t adopt money ball until 1995. With Blll James taken away from the process, how does computer analysis fit into the equation – even in theory? That’s the logical question I have. Sandy admitted having no baseball knowledge so how on his own could he have made those final pick decisions? I can see him acting upon the recommendations of those who made the recommendations, which is not the same as his acting upon his own research and evaluation.
I think my Mr. Met bobble head has been reading all our exchanges and getting a headache for his head is bobbling on it’s own without any help from anyone here!
I’m not a saber guy but I am open minded about it but I’m really not that convinced of it’s usefulness in scouting amateur players. A little perhaps on later round guys but the same hold true in taking a flyer on tool guys. !st, 2nd and 3rd rounders should be elite talent and demonstrated performance and no nut jobs.
For what it’s worth Havens would be a classic saber style pick while Nimmo would be the complete opposite.
Okay Joey! I have to chalk it up to stubborness. The evidence was handed to you on a silver platter. Can’t change your mind even though the people involved said it was so. First you said he wasn’t making the decisions at all and now you’re saying something completely different. That he did’t make them on his own. Well golly gee, thanks for telling me something I’ve known about the GM position since forever. Who make decisions on their own without their staffs input? I’ll end it here before it gets twisted again. Next you’ll be telling me Sandy went on the coffee runs for his staff.
Peace My Friend!
that evidence may be able to fool you but anyone with a brain knows those links don’t prove anything you have said!
Find one that is dated BEFORE 1992 that ta;lks about how valuable Sandy was to baseball decisions if you really want to prove it to us…the rest of your crap is all about post 1992 and actually about MONEYBALL which didn’t start until 1995!
Fonzi,
I did not appreciate the insinuation of being a double-talker playing word games. Nor did I like the word stubborn being applied exclusively to me. I went out of my way to be extra polite, recognizing we were both set in our ways, and even made humor at my own expense so not to appear insulting and disrespectful. The manner and tone of your last remarks were totally uncalled for and rude.
I do not like being put in the position of having to defend myself on this. From the beginning I was quite clear with my assertion that Sandy did not have the talent, insight, experience or ability to assess raw talent to make player personnel decisions regarding those draft picks. He had the authority to sign players which is different than having the skill to assemble players. The accolades for having an astute eye for drafting talent went to the baseball people who had the ability to see great potential in Steinbach, McGwire, Canseco, etc. and make them Oakland’s top draft picks. Sandy simply took over from there. Then, when the aspect of sabremetrics was added to the conversation I immediately pointed out that accumulated statistics in high school and college was meaningless and so computer analysis was not an option in which he could share some of that credit with others.
Yogi Berra knew what he did in 1957, including the many situations he did not come through in one way or another and when his contributions imply further padded a lead.
But whether I am right or wrong in my assessments means little to me as do attacks on my integrity.
I have a suggestion for EVERYBODY. Why not bury the hatchet, forget about what has been said in the past about one another, shake hands and start all over again on a friendly basis? Disagree all you want but remember that we’re all Met fans and have a high standard to live up to!
Otherwise, well…., got to admit the shock radio type treatment is indeed entertaining!
And yet another great season gets underway…..it’s going to be so hard to watch this….
Well, if anyone saw the Mets on MLB’s 30/30 and watching the broadcast today, notice there was very little talk about statistics of either kind. Instead, Al Leiter, Larry Bowa and John Shmoltz focused on improving on one’s grip to develop or better perfect certain pitches, the hitches in the swing, how to position one better, poorly playing a grounder, etc.– so many things about one’s mechanics, what one has to learn or develop or the ability of one to either adapt or resurrect what has been forgotten and has to get it back. Mike Nickeas was interviewed in the dugout and talked about what he saw in the pitchers he handled in terms of the pop in their hands, the mixing of pitches, etc. The only stat really mentioned was about certain pitchers needing to get that extra mile per hour
Even with Wheeler, they said he has the raw talent with a great fastball but has to learn how to better develop his second and third pitches – and especially work on controlling his pitches. Video showed him getting away with this in A ball because inexperienced batters were swinging at pitches out of the strike zone which he would not be able to get away with facing more experienced hitters at higher levels.
I bring up all these points for today we heard professionals talking about professionals in terms of real baseball and nothing to do with stats, past, present or even projected. They talked about how they looked in such infinite detail that would make sabre students drool with envy.
Nobody spoke of WAR, OPS or any type of stat. As Keith said, box scores from a game are all sterile and I think this can be extended to computers. And Bobby O added that if during the year one throws a shutout but all 27 outs were hard hit, that wouldn’t make him feel good.
I wouldn’t expect Keith and Bobby O. be able to provide us detailed information on the fine print in contract clauses, the pros and cons regarding deferred payments, insurance liabilities or the amount a team has to spend each day on just opening the ballpark and turning on the lights. This knowledge is required of Sandy and all others whose expertise is law and finance. Those with the experience and knowledge of a Keith, Bobby, etc. are the potential types who are qualified to make decisions on all levels of player development and personnel. Anyone hearing them talk in this manner understands that it is this type of knowledge which formulates a team and it’s future and that real assessments cannot be learned by analyzing stats fed out from a computer.
MLB network also runs a regular series called ‘Clubhouse Confidential’:
First of its kind baseball program dedicated to analytics, covering the game with modern statistical research and value projection, asking pointed questions and going against conventional wisdom.
********************************************
Any franchise looking to be successful, any FO looking for all and any advantage towards winning, will be using both traditional and modern methods to do so. To ignore one for the other would be a disadvantage.
The FO and/or GM doesn’t need to be an expert in all. They just need to employ the best minds they can find in each area. Best scouts, best player developers, best statisticians, best coaches, etc. etc.
Hi SRT,
I’ve caught that show often on MLB Network. It is indeed a deeply analytic discussion of the game. Baseball would not be immune to such infinite and detailed dissection for use of a computer has become a staple in everyday, ordinary life. Information regarding all of us is now fed into a computer for evaluation on our work performance, financial stability, health and risk factors, etc.
But how relevant is that information and how well can it be utilized is another story. Is it so cut and dry that the need for a Gene Michael, a Bill Rigney, even an Omar Minya at the head of the table is no longer necessary? Has it come down to the point that one who assembles the forty man roster need not have an inside, professional baseball background but only the ability to comprehend what the computer tells him? No, it is like you suggest, a combination.
But the point I am making in regards to those who wear the general manager’s hat like Sandy (expertise being in the business end) is that one cannot go by the information obtained by a computer and act upon that not having an in-depth knowledge of the game itself. Yes, he can indeed assemble a front office staff of knowledgeable baseball people also adept to the new advanced baseball analysis and statistics who can then use all their combined skills to weigh in the decision making. And it’s those type of people who would deserve the credit for assembling the talent – not the outsider with only a P.C. by his side.
That’s also why I raised the question of Paul DePodesta. He is both a man with a deep baseball background and a disciple of sabremetrics. Sandy admits heavily depending upon him in making his baseball decisions. But I really believe it is the Paul DePodestas, who use both disciplines in making assessments, and not the Sandy Aldersons, whose knowledge is in law and business administration, that truly deserve the credit for the steps a club takes. Take away the baseball people and leave the major front office decision making to legal minds, financial officers and computer analysts based on their interpretations of the information gathered and one has assembled a fantasy league baseball team, not a major league one.
The same applies specifically to Sandy Alderson and other non-baseball people in his position – take away their Paul DePodestas and leave them to their computers with all the facts, formulas and every bit of vital baseball information at their disposal and see how successful they and their team of computer programmers can be in putting together a ball club based on sabremetrics and money ball formulas on their own. Those like Paul DePodesta who have both a baseball mind and appreciation of advanced statistical analysis, yes, but not those whose backgrounds are not in baseball.
So that’s why I say Sandy does not deserve the credit for decisions related to baseball personnel as he is for rubber stamping those decisions and then taking on the negotiations. That is not to say he isn’t a top flight baseball executive. It’s just saying that his role deals with the complexities of operating a major league franchise and not player development and that he thus wants his organization to also rely on sabremetric study and money ball fiscal prudence when making their recommendations to him on how to proceed with player personnel.
With his background, it would be impossible for Sandy to trade places with Paul DePodesta and serve as Vice President for Player Development and Scouting where those recommendations on player personnel are developed and then presented to the general manager for consideration. That takes a deep knowledge of baseball itself, with or without advanced computer analysis.
This is the only point I disagree on with those who support Sandy. He is a baseball executive who deserves all the credit due for running an organization and getting the best people to work underneath him. But that is administrative. He does not deserve credit for having the insight and skill to mold together a team. The actual legwork was done by others without his contribution and was then presented to him for approval as a chief financial officer, as it is in any business. For example, at work our own President got credit for a major accomplishment we achieved but working with the Vice President, I knew it was all his input and recommendations even though his name was not even brought up in the press releases.
Considering baseball and the owning of a baseball team is a business, I’m fine with a FO that’s more than one dimensional.
In-depth knowledge of the game itself’ and ‘a baseball mind’ can be subjective. Anywhere from an ex player,a coach to a GM with years of experience. That being said though, I don’t believe SA is here for the long haul anyway. He was brought in to try and get the franchise pointed in the right direction from top to bottom, while initially trying to field a team with a reduced payroll and limited funds. At which point he’ll be handing it off to the next GM, whoever that may be.
“I don’t believe SA is here for the long haul anyway. He was brought in to try and get the franchise pointed in the right direction from top to bottom, while initially trying to field a team with a reduced payroll and limited funds. At which point he’ll be handing it off to the next GM, whoever that may be.”
Hi Srt,
Ever hear the old expression “from your mouth to God’s ears”?
I agree with you and that probably included his hiring of CRG to get the place in order.
But can CRG make up for a half billion dollar loss plus the sudden stoppage of revenue that the Wilpons were receiving from Madoff which had to effect the Mets financial ledger in some capacity. Would love to find the confidential report from CRG to see if my hunch is right that the problems stemmed in large part from the Madoff fiasco happening at the same time there was the creation of a Citi Field with dependence too much upon luxury suites and a 42,000 seat capacity necessitating higher ticket prices, fees, etc. that outpriced the fans.
In my uneducated opinion, It seems the decision to go ahead with the latter was based on the prior. It is obvious that the former general manager over-extending the roster payroll is nothing more than a minor part of it. After all, if one says having to pay $132 million in a settlement is a victory, then how could a payroll being $35 million more than Sandy now wants have been so catastrophic?
I agree with SRT that Sandy’s job one was building a strong organization (the foundation to build on if you will), and part of that was stabilizing finances (payroll and other costs), but that was not the sole mission.
Organizational philosophy, player development (scouting/drafting too), all that stuff.
And that once the basics were done, he was going to hand over the building back up phase.
But IMO what killed the cash flow was the attendance drop. Without that, they would have been fine. Madoff was more of a funding source, and without that they had to go to MLB and the banks. But now that they are over the hump, and raised capital via share sales, it is again all about revunue coming in from the team.
also, Madoff imploded back in 2008. Not like this is anything new.
and the 132? Cost certainty. They had to be prepared for much worse, so in effect keep that money in reserve.
bottom line, they need more asses int he seats to generate the additional revenue to up the spending.
Well, didn’t see your response stick before I added mine.
Seems we’ve come to the same conclusion.
Agree with both you and Stick – it wasn’t the amount of the payroll but how it was tied up around just a few players and thus limiting the Mets in their ability to continue putting together the best team possible.
But as far as attendance, Met executives were quoted in many financial journals that in 2009 they expected to break even with an average 39,000 in attendance. Well, that year they averaged 38,941. Did the 4,779 less tickets being sold cause them to go deep into the red? How much of that also included the unsold luxury suites?
Also, how many purchased tickets hoping to re-sell them on Stub Hub? Just because ticket sales might have created that 38,941 paid attendance figure, the empty seats dried up the additional revenue counted on by parking fees and concessions. Even with someone getting a bargain on the secondary market, the rest of those costs were turn-offs as well.
The Wilpons are stuck in a catch 22. If they want more people in actual attendance they need to lower the overall costs (not just the initial ticket prices but those added on processing fees, parking, concessions, etc.) making it difficult for the average fan to just that more than once a year. But by charging less, they need even more attendace to compensate for the lesser revenue per attendee. They will not get that when all they can fit into Citi Field is 42,000.
Poor long-range planning. Perhaps CRG will tell them that was part of their mistake.
It’s not the overall amount of the payroll that was the problem – it’s the majority of the money tied up in just a handful of players.
Also – don’t believe the payroll amount per say was the problem but the 2 years of down revenues that couldn’t support the payroll was the problem. Wilpons – especially in the past 2 years with the lawsuit hanging over their heads – were not putting their hands in their own pockets to subsidize the team finances. Not when there was a chance they might lose the team. Therefore, payroll had to be slashed. This is my take on it, anyway.
It was all about flexibility in terms of payroll, the MLB team, MILB team, the organization as a whole. The team just did not have any of that when Sandy arrived and that is the large task he is faced with.
Was reading an article about Dr. Bobby Brown commenting on the lack of statistics to show how often Joe DiMaggio stretched a single into a double in the eighth and ninth innings and eventually scored, helping to win a close game. But then he added that he didn’t need to see any stats to know that DiMaggio was the best in the game in doing this – he saw it for himself in things the Yankee Clipper did that opposing players were unable to do.
Also came across the attached in which Tony LaRussa comes down on money ball and the over-emphasis of statistics. Kind of interesting, considering he worked for Sandy Alderson. And note the inaccuracies he found in “Money Ball” – plus the same argument made by many of us less astute baseball fans that Oakland’s continued success in 2002 had little to do with Billy Beane and his dependence upon computer programming.
http://www.lfpress.com/sports/baseball/2011/10/27/18889196.html
Pete Rose was also very adept at taking the extra base and forcing a throw and giving his team opportunities to score more runs.
Maniac,
Why do I suspect you didn’t refer to any stats when presenting that observation about Charlie Hustle?
You’re right about Rose. In my lifetime the greatest stretch of a single into a double came in during that September showdown against the Cubs in 1969. Agee led off with a routine ground single to left but never stopped because he knew that with the outfield being wet, it would slow down the ball getting to Billy Williams who was playing him deep in left. It also caught Williams off-guard and that extra split second was all Agee needed. Tommy said because of all those considerations, he didn’t think it was a risky play. Agee was thinking of in advance of doing exactly this if the situation presented itself. Playing the game intelligently was something instilled in him and his teammates by the great Gil Hodges and that type of characteristic cannot be measured in a computer statistic.
Joey I like stats and use them often. When I was a kid there was the old guy who lived next door to us, a rare die hard Brooklyn Dodger fan who kept rooting for them even when they went to LA because ho loved Hodges, Snider and a kid named Koufax who he went to high school with at Lafayette in Brooklyn. I went to New Utrecht, Lafayette’s rival in Bensonhurst sports.
He used to tell me that stats were invented so the ignorant could understand the difference between good players and bad, and that the purists needed no such assistance, He passed away a long time ago, but I never knew a bigger purist than him.
Hi Maniac,
Nice story about that elderly person you grew up with. And very wise too, about stats for the “ignorant” and purists not needing that assistance.
I love stats too – always did and always will. Stats are the fun part of the game and important to measure individual achievements and records to break. That’s the only reason Jose took himself out of that final game last year – and the only reason why most of us made it a point to listen to the game while at work.
Will also never forget Mickey Mantle saying later on in life how upset he was with not appreciating at the time his career was winding down what it would have meant to leave the game with a lifetime .300 bating average. Had he cared more about that when he was younger, he said he would not have played that last year or so (though he didn’t touch on the point how much he needed that $100,000 salary – an astronomical figure for anyone at that time, let a ball player – and needed it so much that he endured tremendous intolerable pain and personal humiliation being a shadow of himself instead of retiring)
But the use of statistical research to enable one with no professional knowledge of the game to mold a ball club, no way. That reminds of a cartoon I saw in a magazine a long time ago. The catcher went to the mound to discuss how to pitch to the next batter. “I don’t know much about this guy” he said, ” let’s see what it says on his bubble gum card”.
Here’s the thing, why at this point in his career do you think Sandy is ONLY using stats to mold his team? Do you not think in 31 years Sandy has developed that baseball knowledge as well? I am sure that even though his original background wasn’t baseball he now knows more about baseball, what goes on in an organization and what to look for in a prospect more than ANYONE on this blog. Who among us has 30 years of experience in MLB? Does anyone seriously think they are only using OBP and a couple of real saber stats (as OBP isn’t one) to build the Mets? Foolish.
the only stat Sandy is using is the Paycheck stat!
I can find no statistical methodology that could have been used to justify the moves he has made!
You guys keep waving the flexability banner but have we achieved spending flexability yet?
Do we intend to use it?
And if not what is the point of having something you don’t plan on using?
Same old tired debate. Do we really want to subject everyone to that again?
Well when ou keep on bringing out the lame tired excuses then your going to get socked with the same tired debate!
So far all I see from this ‘Payroll Flexability” is three Armando Benitez’ with 5 times the ERA!
An excuse to you is a reason to others. Again, I am not starting this debate with you again. Move on and along.
Ah so getting rid of All Stars to sign three guys who average a 7.3 ERA is reason?
Who Knew?
It’s not the argument your tired of…
It’s trying to defend this REASON you think is enough to pass muster but isn’t quite working out to be the “GOOD DAY” Jessup thought it was!
or the REASONABLE move you thought it was!
Metsie, sorry buddy but you will have to find someone else to help you turn this blog into the Pro vs Anti Sandy Blog. I am no longer participating. It’s boring to me and I am sure to everyone else.
You started it not me!
I didn’t make this pro or Anti Sandy…
You did by PRO sandying with your continued excuse making!
You made the first PRO Sandy post!
And since you started I made sure to post the response to it!
If you didn’t want to start one why did you?
I gave my opinion, you gave yours and we move along. That’s all it’s gonna be on this subject. Sorry.
Well it’s a bit hypocritical to complain about the resumption of a subject you started isn’t it?
Don’t start nothing won’t be nothing!
LOL
It’s a sad day if I post an opinion on what the desire is and it starts something.
And an even Sadder day that you think you (and only you) should be able to post your opinion but someone else should not be allowed to respond with theirs!
Because your tired of people taking issue with your opinion!
If your tired of people taking issues and starting comments on your opinion then stop posting them!
Then they will feel no need to respond to the NOTHING!
Nope I just did not want to turn the page into the classic sides debate again. I said my peace, you said yours and I refuse to argue about them. However, now we are going back and forth on me not wanting to go back and forth.
hen it’s very simple….DON’T!
Paul DePodesta, a deep baseball background? The same Paul DePodesta known as Google boy, who carries a laptop around with him. an economics major from Harvard, a deep baseball background? Who knew?
It only stands to reason that Sandy would hire those who worked with him in Oakland and San Diego and adher to his philoslphy of computer analysis leading to money ball.
Since Paul is the Vice President of Player Development and Scouting and since he too relies more on computer analysis than the advice of those beneath him, all that means Sandy is not the only culprit responsible for the player moves made the past 15 months.
Joey this got lost with Metisie’s garbage.
Here’s the thing, why at this point in his career do you think Sandy is ONLY using stats to mold his team? Do you not think in 31 years Sandy has developed that baseball knowledge as well? I am sure that even though his original background wasn’t baseball he now knows more about baseball, what goes on in an organization and what to look for in a prospect more than ANYONE on this blog. Who among us has 30 years of experience in MLB? Does anyone seriously think they are only using OBP and a couple of real saber stats (as OBP isn’t one) to build the Mets? Foolish.
HI Tr,
No, I really do not believe that in his 30 years as a baseball executive Sandy has developed the skills to judge player personnel bascily beyond his computer analysis. The reason is what his job responsibilities were during that time. Sandy was the Chief Executive Officer for San Diego during his five year tenure in San Diego, a business position. Before that, he spent seven years serving in the Commissioner’s office. In his prior 16 years in Oakland, with no baseball experience on a professional level, he was initially hired as the team’s general counsel, a legal position. Two years later, he then becomes the general manager with no professional knowledge of the game as he has openly admitted. And thus I contended that his main role there was running of the operation, not the molding of player personnel.
Yes, he has 30 years experience in baseball. But it’s behind the front desk. In fact, it makes one wonder if he does the sabremetric analysis himself or relies on the judgement on others he has hired. Certainly, he and DePodesta have the business qualifications. But that doesn’t teach an individual about putting together player personnel. It means he has knowledge of the game from a computer, being a fan, and listening to baseball insiders – which does not mean having the skill.
You are right, we do not know how much Sandy, Paul and others rely on the computer analysts and on the baseball analysts, however, at least publicly, sabremetrics is heavily attributed to their decisions. If this paints an untrue proportion and reliance on computer analysis, that is then the fault of saber supporters, their own public statements, the media, MLB public relations or a combination of both.
I guess we will agree to disagree. I see no way that Sandy has not been paying attention to the baseball side of things for 30 years and has not learned from that position while relying only on computer stats. Sorry.
He couldn’t have possibly learned how to build a team as an outsider with no previous professional experience but somehow Paul DePodesta an economics major from the same Harvard University has a deep baseball background. It’s called an agenda, TRS. Even The A’s ex scouts Bill Gayton and Grady Fuson say they learned everything they know from Sandy. Seems to me he learned about the game the same way Paul DePodesta did. The same way Theo Epstein, Jon Daniels, Andrew Friedman, Ben Cherington, Jed Hoyer, Josh Byrnes, John Mozeliak learned.
Hi Tr,
We are probably disagreeing on two things and that is fine with me if it’s OK with you.
First is how much of a role Sandy actually takes in the actual evaluation of talent and player moves. The more I’ve researched him the more it appears that his involvement had to entrenched with running the business end of a sports franchise than the actual player personnel aspect. That is where his expertise is and thus, the credit for the player moves attributed to him might be more in general simply because Sandy is the man at the top.
Yes, one could say that is only conjecture on my part. But consider the case in point of him being credited for selecting Steinbach, McGwire and Canseco as first round draft picks with the connotation that his decisions at least in part were based on sabremetric analysis. Now, with absolutely no knowledge of the insides of the game (which he never tried to deny) and with the understanding by scouts that stats compiled by raw talent is virtually useless in the assessment of raw talent, how could he have hit upon Steinbach? Impossible. Same thing the next two years with McGwire and Canseco. He couldn’t. His people could, but not him. He could have faith in their understandings and then rubber-stamp those recommendations but there is no way he had the keen eye and judgement necessary to participate in any assessment. And there was no saber knowledge for him to use. The pieces just do not fit.
The second is the use of computer analysis to formulate player moves. My disagreement is with the degree in which so many fans place on it – not the usage itself. As mentioned, when advocates of advanced stats make the case that Jeff Bagwell is the fifth best first baseman of all time, that Yogi Berra is wrong in his assessment of his 1957 performance, that a kid from Toronto called up in August should be compared to the all time greats of the game, that Jason Bay would still be able to hit for power moving to Citi Field., that a Lastings Miledge was going to develop into a dependable major league outfielder without taking into account his attitude problems, well that is why I say statistics used on a professional level to assemble a team plays a minor role.
How often have we seen a player with poor stats still be given a chance by someone who saw something in him that the stats didn’t show? R.A. Dickey come to mind?
I also saw something wrong with Dontrelle Willis early in 2006 which would never appear in stats but indicated to me that his career was going to go onto sharp decline. It was not with his pitching at the moment but with his sudden antics on the mound. He began running off the mound to get the return throw, became tremendously fidgety on the mound, including muttering to himself. He would often seem to be sulking – so unlike the Willis of before. Others disagreed with me but sure enough his career spirrelled downward and finally it was revealed he had been suffering with anxiety and could no longer pitch. A sad situation but something one whose emphasis on sabremetrics would not know and might ignore on the basis of what he was told.
So the above summarizes why I don’t place tremendous emphasis on computer analysis and money ball. After all, Tony LaRussa himself said what was depicted in the movie was quite misleading and scoffed at many of the conclusions drawn on how to manage a game by computer analysis.
Also, one must question how much influence steroid use played in the inflation of statistics (since both began hitting the scene around the same time) for so many players which would then distort the findings from that computer, making differences in players seem larger than they really were?
Joey what I guess I am saying is that you are formulating your opinion based on what others say about Sandy. Just because some are pro Moneyball doesn’t mean that is the only thing Sandy does or uses to make decisions. In fact any of the “Moneyball” GM’s would tell you that it takes the use of scouts AND stats to formulate an ideal plan.
My biggest point remains that if you think that Sandy has not learned a lot about baseball itself as played on the field and is able to use that in his decision making is to turn a blind eye to 30 years in baseball. Do you think he never watches the game or never hears anyone talk about the game or never talks to scouts?
Hi trs,
I had been giving Sandy all the credit in the world for the moves I thought he made prior to the successful run of Oakland teams via draft picks, free agent signings and trades. I was also attributing that to Sandy having a keen eye and insight for recognizing and evaluating talent before his days of sabremetrics and money ball.
I was basing that on my “traditional” (what a pun, right? LOL) concept of a general manager when the finances were handled by the team’s President or Treasurer. My thoughts about Sandy and his career in baseball changed about three weeks ago when I became aware of and started delving deeper into the many hats the general managers can now wear today and learned that the title and responsibilities vary from team to team (yup, Metsi’s insistence on this got me to examine it and find out for myself what’s what).
So with the Wilpons financial situation being so bad and they chose Sandy to help get them out of the mess, and considering his legal background and executive experience, he is indeed perfect for the job they hired him for – which I believe is getting their financial mess back in order.
Now, to the point about Sandy being able to develop the skills and insight to mold player personnel after 30 years in the game, well I do think he has a better appreciation of the sport and understanding of it, yes – but not to the degree and magnitude essential to play an important role on an executive level. Even Theo Epstein, who also studied Law and is an ardent user of statistical analysis and money ball and did not play the sport, grew up following sports intensely and served as the sports editor for the Yale University newspaper among other things and thus had a background in sports more than of a fan and understands there are limitations to statistical analysis. He said to Peter Gammons, for example, that offensive decline doesn’t show up as fast in statistics as defensive decline. He wasn’t like Sandy who admitted he knew very little about baseball before joining Oakland as it’s legal counsel.
And as far as Sandy’s professional understanding of the game, I will again point out his answer to a question raised by the viewing audience during one of his first sit down interviews on SNY. He was asked if he was going to bring in the fences so the Mets could hit more home runs. His answer was no, the players were going to have to learn how to hit home runs at Citi Field instead. Anybody who knows baseball knows how ridiculous an answer that was, especially coming from one credited with being well versed in the game. He did not mention about the team building itself to conform with Citi Field, i.e., the emphasis more on pitching,defense and speed instead of power. His answer to the lack of home runs hit by the Mets reminded me of Sarah Palin’s response to dealing in foreign affairs (I can see Russia from my house and the Russians fly over Alaskan air space).
All this combined is why I believe Sandy’s skills are in the senior management field, not the player management one. I don’t believe my assessment is unrealistic and until one of us is able to get the confidential inter-office correspondence from Oakland and New York, belief is all we can go by rather than substantiated evidence. Attributes to him regarding his influence on others with computer analysis is one of executive leadership.
So Joey, a regular baseball fan like yourself could figure out what was wrong with Dontrelle Willis but a Lawyer who became a GM of a baseball team could not have learned how to do these things? Interesting to say the least. You have to understand the reasoning behind the McGwire pick. I have about 20 different links explaining just how he came to the conclusion. Why he chose McGwire rather than the other 3 guys that were on their wish list, not that you’ll believe it but what the heck.
http://www.metsfever.com/2010/10/i-have-questions-about-this-alderson.html
Remember sabermetrics is not moneyball and moneyball was about Billy Beane’s tenure with Oakland. Alderson is against moneyball and said he wouldn’t have taken the job if he had to run a franchise that way.
Yup, I don’t get why everyone associates Sandy with moneyball to start with.
Also, I have learned a tremendous amount about baseball from not only playing and coaching the game a little but also reading books, looking at stats, listening to radio shows and participating in blogs. What makes us think Sandy would be unable to do the same to a much greater extent when his job has been baseball related for 30+ years.
Fonzi,
Thank you for the link. But again, notice it emphasizes how he changed the philosophy of the franchise – that being sabremetrics and money ball – but it does not mention anything about his skill coming into play in the selection of the draft picks, trades, etc. (BTW I’ve always said that the money ball value comes from the assessment of the sabremtric analysis and that they are connected, not one of the same). In all that has been posted, there is no mention from Sandy about his own hands-on observations of what he specifically saw in those players (i.e., their mechanics, their instincts, mental attitude or anything else scouts look for) that made him decide they should be his top draft picks.
As far as Willis, my small understanding of psychology was better than the lawyer who signed Taylor Buccholz, right?
Taylor started talking about his depression with the team psychiatrist Ron Svetich during his days in Colorado so his symptoms did not develop over night but somehow the signs of his condition went unnoticed when the Mets re-assembled it’s bullpen that prior winter. Buccholz was counted on heavily and was indeed pitching well during his brief stint with the Mets until his problems just overwhelmed him.
Of course, the Met bullpen is totally unimportant compared to the demons Taylor has been dealing with inside and all any of us should do is to wish him and his loved ones well as he works on being able to handle those demons better in the future so he can get back to having a productive and happy life.
Joey, I already gave you that link that says he did and you tried to shoot that one down too, lol. What more evidence do you need? I just saw your response to TRS saying that at least Theo Epstein grew up following sports intensely and was the sports editor for Yale. So that gives him a better understanding in evaluating players? He didn’t even play baseball, at least Sandy played 2nd base for Harvard for 3 years. And I must correct you. Sandy said he had no backround in scouting and player developement he didn’t say he didn’t know anything about baseball. How could he play college baseball if he didn’t know anything about baseball. Do you think he got a hit and yelled touchdown? lol. For some reason you think this guy makes all of his decisions based on a computer which couldn’t be further from the truth. he said it himself that advanced stats are just a tool and that there has to be a balance between scouting, developement and the use of statistics. If you followed our 2011 draft picks they were based on the scouts projections not sabermetrics. Moneyball had nothing to do with our draft picks. Your point about the Buchholz signing is? They knew about his illness with depression which is why he only signed for 600K plus incentives. The Citifield comment is much to do about nothing. You have a right to your opinion but if you take away your dislike for him and actually read the articles as I have you’ll learn alot more about the man than what you are perceiving. In the last few weeks I have read dozens of articles about him and where I was once on the fence about him and his philisophy I am now a firm believer that he is the right guy to turn this franchise around. I haven’t been able to say that since Frank Cashen was the GM and that’s a long time ago.
Have a good one Joey
http://www.nctimes.com/sports/baseball/professional/mlb/padres/article_46bd16d6-ecc9-5caa-a030-893e3f6bf3e8.html
I forget to share this link. Paul DePo spoke about traditional scouting that has it’s flaws as well.
Maybe he learned some lessons about team work in the jungles of Vietnam where sometimes winning tomorrow was dependent on surviving today.
I don’t know that the Mets have ever employed a military man in the FO before. I do recall Art Howe speaking almost everyday of how the guys “battled out there” but I don’t know that that would count.
I’m reasonably sure that Sandy understands the chain of command pretty well and has probably learned a thing or two about players in his 30 years in the business and I’ll bet anything he has a pretty fair grip on risk vs. reward having served the United States in combat.
Except that doesn’t seem to be the case here Joey.
Nimmo, Fulmer, Evans, Montgomery, Marquez Tuschak are all the anthysis of the typical moneyball stat oriented draft. If anything Minaya’s draft would have been considered far more moneyball centric than Alderson’s first one.
Shields, den Dekker, Vaughn, Davis, Havens, Ceciliani, Kunz, Rustich, Niessen, Clyne, Smith, Ratliff, Satin, Gorski, Forsythe, those guys are real moneyball draft choices.
Alderson’s first, not so much.
100% accurate Tag. I don’t understand all this computer shit being harped on everyday. The scouting staff increased when Sandy was hired and the first 2 picks were the total opposite of moneyball, analytical, computerized philosphy. They were traditional, old school heavily scouted picks. The Moneyball philosophy is drafting college players based on numbers and we drafted a bunch of high upside High School kids in the later rounds last year. I have never seen a fanbase so divided over their front office personnel. This franchise has tried the free agent frenzy patchwork approach twice and it both timme in wound up in the shitter only this time with financial ramifications. At least if your going to be anti Sandy, know what is actually going on with he draft picks.
Three times Fonzie if you count “the worst team money could buy” Pt. 1.
Monkeyballers going apes**t over building a baseball team instead of assembling an Old Timer day squad I guess.
How could I forget!
Repressed Memory Syndrome Fonzie, otherwise known as Massive Eyesore Traumatic Syndrome or METS for short.
I think the disagreement between many of us is not whether we are pro or anti-Sandy as it is the degree of importance placed on sabermetrics and money ball in the scheme of things. We can only guess how Sandy and Paul came up with the trades this past winter or the free agent signings of Caresco, Young, Capuano…. we all know the names. What percentage was reliance on baseball minds, how much was based on what they saw in the computer and how much was based on placing an economic value on players.
I just don’t see the baseball traditionlists coming up with those on that list. Would they depend upon so heavily injured players to fill two slots in the rotation and a major slot in the bullpen if they have yet to prove they made it back all the way both physically (i.e. Young) or performance wise (i.e., Caraso and Capuano)? Those slots were eventually handed to the young kids but that was obviously not the intent.
Of all the guys they have brought in only two (Carrasco and Francisco) got more than a one year deal. That was most important because of all the prospects Omar produced that are still in A+ and AA (Flores, Armando Rodriguez, Carson, Satin, Lagares, Puello,) or injured and unlikely to help in AA and AAA this year (Mejia, Havens, Lutz, Kirk) and give a little extra time to Valdespin, Schwinden, Familia and Stinson)
That’s 15 guys on the 40. He’s protecting as many prospects as possible and gathering another years worth of information about who’s going to be solutions in the future and where he has to look outside the organization. Some of these prospects not tossed away for an extra year of a LOOGY, ROOGY, RH pinch hitter or 5th OFer might be instrumental in trades too if they continue to develop for those areas we don’t have the answer to inside the system.
Next year spots need to be available for Gorski, Cordero, Vaughn, Cecceliani among others and they don’t figure to be in the Majors or even be able to provide credible AAA depth.
Sign guys to multi year deals they have to be on the 40 come the rule 5 draft and everyone on the DL has to be pulled back onto it as well so the question is would you prefer to have had Chad Qualls and Adam Harang on a two year deal last year and have lost Robert Carson and Armando Rodriguez and the potential they have or could return in a trade for a better 2011?
Sure you can say a GM’s job is to do both but where was that sentiment the last 15 years when we didn’t do any looking toward the future? If it had been addressed in more than just the most perfunctory possible fashion we wouldn’t be in this position.
Those are the sort of considerations that are behind the signings that he’s been making and the guys with a few options are probably all heading somewhere else before they come here because of A) more years, B) more money, C) better chance to win elsewhere and D) prefer to play closer to their off season home.
That shrinks the pool of available guys down quite a bit wouldn’t you say?
Even for one year, those are not the guys to get.
Who were the guys to get?
Well see here’s where you come to A) Guys who can sign elsewhere for two or more years. B) Guys who got more to go elsewhere. C) Guys who went elsewhere for a better chance to win a ring, and D) Guys who opted to play closer to their off season home.
So yeah, who were the better guys to get?
Agee, I look at it like this. We had about 3 barrels to scrape the bottom out of, and we happened to scrape the bottom out of the wrong barrel. When you work with a budget of a 1980′s budget in 2011. You get Sta Minghia!
Yeah Fonz when you buy the cheapest grapes, pick them too early and ferment and age them in a barrel carved from trees in a nuclear waste site in the former Soviet Union and slap a fancy decal on the bottle your not going to be on too many top wine lists.
Fonzi,
We were talking specifically about the early draft picks in Oakland. I argued at the time that he did not have the professional skills to evaluate talent and, by his own admittance, knew very little of baseball on a professional level. So you answered with the following:
“Also Joey while your saying he didn’t make those decisions base on lack of experience, you’re failing to realized he is the founding father of the saber minded executives. He didn’t make decisions based on scouting for we know he wasn’t. He made his decisions on analytics.”
So when I provided specific details on how evaluation of raw talent is reached, showing that analytics is meaningless in scouting and evaluating raw talent you then just now said:
“For some reason you think this guy makes all of his decisions based on a computer which couldn’t be further from the truth. he said it himself that advanced stats are just a tool and that there has to be a balance between scouting, developement and the use of statistics. If you followed our 2011 draft picks they were based on the scouts”.
So first you acknowledge Sandy had a lack of professional hands-on baseball experience and knowledge to make those draft pick decisions. So you added that he did not make his decisions on scouting but by analytics instead. When it was pointed out that analytics is meaningless in judging the potential of raw talent, you now suggest he was versed in both – but change the discussion from the early eighties to that of 2011.
Your statements contradict each other, distort mine and actually change subject of the conversation .
Otherwise, it is fine with me that we disagree on where he is today. You say his thirty years in the game enabled him to develop the hands on baseball skill which he merges with advanced computer analysis. I contend that with his deep involvement in the administrative end required undue attention in matters of legal, financial, contractual, etc. with Oakland, San Diego and for the long period working in the commissioner’s office being directly responsible for all these activities simply could not have afforded him the extensive amount of time and training to develop skills of observation, insight and knowledge of player management and development.
So either he depends mostly on his computer analysis or the computer analysis and baseball observations of those below himin which he set the tone for how organization should be run. In any case, though he might recognize and appreciate that “advanced stats are just a tool and that there has to be a balance between scouting, developement and the use of statistics” all those qualifications are not part of his overall resume.
Which does not make me anti- or pro- Sandy. It simply is recognition that he has set the tone for his organization on how he wants things done and that his own personal role is more on the business end then hands-on activity regarding player personnel evaluation and roster decisions – even though the final decision rests on his shoulders. And if I am mistaken and he is indeed more involved in team personnel beyond just relying on the conclusions and recommendations by his staff, then to me it seems his own research is more through the computer.
I do believe computer analysis is more helpful for the untrained eye than it is for those who are involved directly in the game itself who already have an understanding of what the computer reveals in a statistical language and projection. For the baseball pros, the computer is more a data base of information which is more reliable than memory or notes. It might indeed provide some revealing information the baseball minds might have overlooked in a player, but that is in terms of storage and not analytic in nature. And, many teams recognize the need for extensive computer analysis if, for nothing else, simply to get an idea of what other teams might be thinking – sort of like intelligence gathering by countries.
Hello Joey.D!!!
You’re right I did say he made the pick of BIg Mack based on Bill James formula’s but what I found out as I dug deeper to try and get to the bottom of this with all the back and forth yes he did, no he didn’t was that his scouting staff gave him a list of players based on exactly what you said, tools, mechanics, the rating system and he made the McGwire pick base on the analytics. I know he wasn’t traveling aroud with the scouting staff watching these kids play. Rather than take a guy like Cecil Espy and I forget the other two but they were the toolsy, athletic type of prospects, he took McGwire based on his power potential and his on base potential. Same with Giambi.
The last link I gave you was actually a shock to me myself. I had no idea until I researched it that he had incorporated the analytics into his entire scouting staff. Fuson and Gayton claimed to have learned everything about scouting from him and that really shocked me. Also don’t get mixed up with the analytics being just statistics like I did. The analyzation is of plate discipline, walk rate, contact rates stuff like that. Not stuff like Batting AVG, RBI’s, and stats like that. I think that’s where everybody including myself was misinterpreting the analytical part of the scouting. It’s scientific analysis not performance analysis.
Where the contradictions came in was because of Metsie saying he made little to no baseball decisions at all before 1992 which we know is false and then it was he couldn’t have made baseball decisionsat all because he was a Lawyer and had no backround.
I saw an interesting link from a speaking event that DePodesta did. I have to find it and post it. I thought I did it lastnight but it didn’t show up.
Check this out from DePodesta. Talking about a bad trade based on his scouts assesment of a players bad swing. The scouts didn’t like his swing so the Indians traded him. That player was Jeff Kent.
http://www.greatertalent.com/PaulDePodesta/
Very interesting Fonzie,
I didn’t know that professional scouts gave credit to Alderson for revolutionizing their own industry. That’s a good sign.
I was an in favor of Jon Daniels or Terry Ryan when we had a vacancy but I’m impressed with the way Alderson has slowed down the rushing of prospects and isn’t singularly focused exclusively on just the upcoming year for a change.
I think this bodes well for our future providing he can follow Minaya’s prospects with elite all around talent and properly develop them.
Neither did I agee. I came across a few articles and found out a lot more than I ever gave him credit for.
http://www.nctimes.com/sports/baseball/professional/mlb/padres/article_46bd16d6-ecc9-5caa-a030-893e3f6bf3e8.html
Fonzi,
Don’t you think an apology is in order for the uncalled for and embarrassing accusations about my being stubborn with evidence handed to me on a silver platter, changing my mind saying one thing and then something completely different, by my twisting things when I did nothing of the kind – not to mention the sarcastic comment about coffee for the staff?
“Okay Joey! I have to chalk it up to stubborness. The evidence was handed to you on a silver platter. Can’t change your mind even though the people involved said it was so. First you said he wasn’t making the decisions at all and now you’re saying something completely different. That he did’t make them on his own. Well golly gee, thanks for telling me something I’ve known about the GM position since forever. Who make decisions on their own without their staffs input? I’ll end it here before it gets twisted again. Next you’ll be telling me Sandy went on the coffee runs for his staff.”
Wouldn’t your feelings be hurt had I made such comments about you just because we disagreed about something?
Not to mention the following remark about my using the example of Dontrell Willis to point out there are so many things about players that can’t be measured through mathematical equation:
“So Joey, a regular baseball fan like yourself could figure out what was wrong with Dontrelle Willis but a Lawyer who became a GM of a baseball team could not have learned how to do these things? Interesting to say the least.”
Again, wouldn’t your feelings be hurt had I made such comments about you?
And notice I was correct in that this was exactly what the Mets failed take into account when it came to Taylor Buccholz and his serious health issues? When picking him to fill an important spot in the bullpen this problem (which had been torturing Taylor during his days in Colorado and probably beforehand) either went overlooked or was not taken seriously enough. Is it that Sandy and his organization becoming so much involved in cold statistical analysis that it is failing to equate in it’s proper perspective the important factors of the human character in general? Of course, poor Taylor is the extreme and not the norm, but it does point out the dangers of automation becoming too dominant a force in molding personnel. The flaws in all of us and certainly the character of the individual and the chemistry flow that makes up a team cannot be measured on paper.
Joey, if you were offended by me calling you stubborn then I most certainly do apologize. I honestly have been called much worse on this site, so if you called me stubborn that wouldn’t bother me at all but not everybody is the same so I wouldn’t want to offend one of the more gentlemanly posters on this site. I take insults with a grain of salt.
As far as changing the argument from one to the other, I believe I have a case. When this topic began, Metsie claimed that Sandy never made baseball decisions until after 1992 and after you said you did some research agreed.
When I presented a good half dozen or so links to show that was not the case, then it became he could’nt have made those decisions himself. His underlings did all the groundwork and he got all the credit for it.I never said he did it all by himself without the work of his staff but I dug even deeper and found out even more than I originally thought. I had no idea that 2 prominent scouts gave him the credit for their scouting philosophy and success. Like you, I always assumed it was statistics that they used to make their decisions but it turns out it was more than just performance statistics, it was scientific analytics.
I never disputed the fact that the scouts are the ones that determine which players get put on the teams wishlist by a lot of what you showed with that link you gave, with the rating scale, etc… He did make his final determination from the list of players using analytics. He may not have personally scouted them but his handprints were all over the scouting philosophy and I never knew that until this whole topic was raised over a week ago and I read up on it. So i guess you can say we all learned a little something.
Did you have a look at the Paul DePodesta videos? I thought they were pretty interesting.
I don’t think you have to worry about these guys just sitting in front of a computer trying to build the team. The majority of our draft picks were scouted and drafted the total opposite of aa moneyball philosophy. I’m sure there were some analytics but there were also a lot of highschool high upside picks that goes against the moneyball approach to drafting and building a team, thanks God. Once again.
Also Joey, Sandy knew of Buchholz condition. That’s why he got such a low base salary. It was a risk reward signing and he was one of our better relievers until he got hurt. Nothing wrong with taking a flyer on a guy when you don’t have a lot of money to work with. Those are the types of signings you get. Buchholz went out of his way to compliment Sandy for the way he treated Taylor and his family after the depression reared it’s ugly head again. Hopefully Buchholz gets well and gets back on the mound for somebody.
Oops I hit reply too fast, I meant to say once again I apologize for offending you. No hard feelings.