1
2012
Collins Sets Thole Straight, Says No. 1 Job Is Up For Grabs
An article by 
Josh Thole’s honeymoon period with the Mets is officially over. No more kid glove treatment, no more excuses, time to man up…
That was pretty much the message that Terry Collins delivered yesterday to Josh Thole according to Andy Martino of the Daily News.
“Basically, what I told him was that last year was not acceptable,” Collins related. “I told him there was too much of that (demonstrating a waving, backhand glove action) that caused Dickey and others wild pitches they didn’t deserve. I told him: ‘I don’t care if you worked on eliminating the 3-4 different stances you had last year, I want to see it.’ I also told him: ‘If you catch the way you did last year, you’d have to hit a whole lot more than .268 to justify me keeping you there.’ ”
In other words, Thole, who has essentially had on-the-job training at the major league level these past 1½ seasons after converting from first base, is going to have to earn his job this spring — and that being the incumbent means nothing in Collins’ eyes. The other day, the manager told Rob Johnson, a light-hitting defensive backup catcher with the San Diego Padres last year, not to think he was in camp competing for the No. 2 job. Even though Thole may have the edge going in, Collins said, the No. 1 job is very much up for grabs.
Lets face it, Mike Pelfrey wasn’t the only Met who regressed significantly last season. At times Josh Thole was absolutely brutal behind the plate. His game calling was questionable too and on a few occasions he was called out for it by Pelfrey, Niese and Collins. He led the National League with 16 passed balls last year and according to Collins, it could have been a lot more save for the fact they were ruled wild pitches. Baserunners stole more on him last season as well.
Thole’s got a lot of work to do.
About the Author: Joe DeCaro
I'm a lifelong Mets fan who loves writing and talking about the Amazins' 24/7. From the Miracle in 1969 to the magic of 1986, and even the near misses in '73 and '00, I've experienced it all - the highs and the lows. I started Mets Merized Online in 2005 to feed my addiction. Follow me on Twitter @metsmerized.
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And THAT is what is so mystifying about Alderson doing absolutely nothing to strengthen the catching position going into this season. He obviously views this as a throw-away season before it even begins, so why shouldn’t the fans view it the exact same way, and act accordingly? At least we have decent minor league baseball to follow.
At least we have decent minor league baseball to follow”
Lol, petey, then you’re gonna love this:
http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/nimmo-believes-he-s-better-prepared-1.3568221
I kinda like it.. Show your manhood at an early age.. Points up with the CORE
I’m with you, but looking at what else was out there, it would be throwing a great deal of money at over the hill backstops who would need to be platooned anyway. Given the restrictions this team has, lack of financial flexibility and the holes at multiple positions that this team currently has, it was no surprise that they rolled with what they had. Personally, I would have liked to have seen the investment in a veteran backstop to help the younger pitchers in Niese, Gee, Schwinden, etc. grow their games and help mental road block Pelfrey not be, well, Pelfrey-esque.
At the end of the day, it’s time for Thole to show he belongs. Or, we move along and hope a C prospect comes back in a package for when Pelf/Bay/Wright/Rauch/Murphy/whomever is moved at the trade deadline.
I agree that the options out there seemed to be very underwhelming. And nothing that I can recall that seemed like a catcher of the future or LT ML option.
so I think Johnson is that guy (he is a real good glove/game caller, right? just can’t hit much?) Since it seems like the vet guys they could have had (say, Pudge) can’t hit anyway, might as well roll with Johnson.
What I was hoping to see was snagging a guy that is well regarded and either about ready to graduate from the minors, or maybe was stuck on a ML roster as a back up that could be around for a while. But, we will never know what Sandy tired to do (maybe he asked about, and the return required was more than he would spend).
I had wondered if Niese could have gotten Grandal back from Cincy, but I think he was an add to the Alonzo, as it was Alonzo that they needed to move. Grandal + 1 or 2 others would have been nice. Granted, that doesn’t help the Mets and their own SP issues…
I really was not a fan of trading Neise. I still think he has th epotential to be a strong SP, and it is too early to give up on him.
Yeah, I hear you. I didn’t want to have Niese traded either, but considering the hauls that the young SPs were bringing back, I’m sure that’s why Alderson was entertaining the idea.
Latos was far more attractive to Cinn than Niese would have been but look what SD did in that deal. Traded a really top young LH starting pitcher still under team control!
That’s the kind of premium top catching prospects command.
If we did something like that some guys here were go ********.
They add Grandal to their already impressive stable of catching prospect including Austin Hedges, Rocky Gale and Jose Garcia. They’ll get good play most likely from Grandal starting as soon as mid season, they’ll have depth and they’ll also have a choice prospect to get their own Latos or Pineda when the time comes.
You got to plan to have a catcher, not just look around at an A ball first basemen who caught in HS a declare yourself all set for the next decade.
if the team wins alittle u can always add a guy (preferable a righty) in july. lets not all freak out over this.
Petey, I’m with you on that. Outside of the current SP situation, the current catching platoon of Thole/Nickeas bothers me the most. I’d rather bring in Pudge for 1 year on the minimum (Pudge apparently called the Mets recently) and wait till midseason to make a trade for another catcher like Miguel Montero, who will be a FA soon. I cannot see Thole in their plans and Alderson seriously cannot tell me that Thole is deserving of a roster spot. Slap hitter, TERRIBLE D.
To the people who put down the idea that the Mets could have strengthened themselves this winter, I would say you are right that Johnny Bench, in his prime, was not available for the Mets to pick up this winter. HOWEVER, there were a few catchers who changed teams that I would feel much more comfortable going into battle with, if I knew one of them was on the Mets roster. Again, I am NOT saying these guys are to catching what slicing machines were to bread, but they represent an upgrade at the catching position for the Mets this year. I would have gladly taken Ramon Hernandez for the year and see what happens.
This just illustrates the problem with waiting until the off season every year to figure out who’s going to be your catcher next season. Very rarely are there good alternatives and even those few times there are the player has a choice.
For all anyone knows maybe we did make contact with Hernandez. He could have chosen Colorado over us for any number of reasons having nothing to do with the 6.4 M over two years he got from the Rockies.
Catchers in other minor league systems should have been looked at as trade acquisitions years before if you wanted one in 2011-2014 not a guy playing 1B in your own system. Recently Wilson Ramos, Yasmani Grandal, Jesus Montero and Carlos Santana were traded but you have to be looking beyond just this year or you’ll never get a guy like that. You also need to have something to trade for guys like that.
Good Points pete!
I don’t really blame Alderson but lets face facts here if they really think pushing him is needed they could have gotten someone a little more credible to throw in there instead!
Truth is it didn’t really work with Paulino so I don’t really see them getting anyone or saying anything that is going to make this guy better!
They should coach instead of threaten him and if it means less time to coach other things well then get more coaches!
And what do you think he should have done, call up Johnny Bench
Thole sucks as a catcher and he’s not even good enough to be a backup because his defense is so bad. That no attempt was made to replace him speaks volumes.
We’ve got Thole still trying to prove he can be an adequate catcher.
Murph trying to prove he can play 2nd base.
Duda hoping to play a decent RF.
Tejada trying to take over at SS.
All 4 fail, it’s going to be a long season…….
That’s alot of square pegs being forced into round holes. A couple of those are probably doomed to failure.
Let’s not forget DWright, who finished last in Fld% out of all the starting third-basemen in the league last year. This Mets team is so poorly conceived, that it stands every chance of being a defensive nightmare all season long.
Oh boy….I didn’t know that about Wright. I knew he didn’t have a good defensive year but didn’t realize it was that bad.
Wright had to be impacted by playing so long with a busted back. Assuming that really is fixed, I am not worried about him too much.
And Duda should be servicable at least, and Tejada respectable. Murphy is the only one where I think it could get ugly.
Stick, stop making excuses for Dwright.. Enough Already god!!!! he defensively is not that good, most of his errors are due to his weak arm… man,..
Well, hard to argue about his throwing, but it is certainly a legitimate thing to consider if his #s were down last year. And reasonable to expect that if the back is healed, he will have a better chance at making plays that he used to.
And get off your crusade on the guy!
Crusade???? You mean stop EXPOSING HIM and all HIW WEAKNESS???
I don’t understand the people that make excuses for Wright’s fielding when all you have to do is watch him play with an open mind to realize he sucks at third base. The guy is a horrible fielder. The best place on the diamond for Wright is unquestionably first base, where his wet noodle of a throwing arm and silly side arm throwing motion, wouldn’t expose him as much, and cause him to be credited with errors at such an unearthly rate.
Petey, i am sure i’ve said this before, but, the CORE salute you for that comment.. His legion of fans (the few remaining) can’t seem to understand the man defensively is a liability, i think he can catch pretty well, and he covers good ground, but his throwing errors have KILLED the mets many times, 2B should’ve been his best position!
Well, Tejada is a short stop. He played SS 10x as often as 2B coming up. I don’t doubt he can play his position. It’s his bat that should be the concern.
hell, everybody should be fighting for a job at this point.
and this is where not having any prospect depth (at the position) in the system hurts. At least that way you are building with/around someone, and can have continuity, as opposed to bringing in some mediocre veteran every year that has to learn from scratch.
Oh this is Rich! Pelfrey calling out Thole for his game calling. You slug-you stunk. You spent more time walking off the mound and wiping your no brain forehead . So all the pitching woes of last year falls on Josh Thole’s shoulders. This is a real winning attitude going into a new season. Hey Collins, if you feel this way about your catcher, send him down or trade him. You ain’t such a great manager either and I will not be sorry to see you go. I am not praising Josh Thole but criticism is best done in private. You have no class, no class at all. I will not be sad when you walk. PS: if this was your son would you humiliate him in public? You are a slug!
what’s wrong with announcing guys have to earn there job? I don’t see it as somehow calling him out. More like a challenge!
and some pitchers need to be led by their catcher (not every pitcher is like a Halladay or Maddux that runs his own game).
And Collins does not get to decide who to trade (or even who to send down)> He just gets to play the guys the FO gives him (and yes, I know he gets to give input to the process too).
Well let me just say. Over the course of my career (now retired) I attended numerous personnel and management courses and public criticism is one of the worst counseling methods and by the way the least effective way to improve a person’s performance and attitude. When I read the comments I said to myself , is Collins trying to use public humiliation to affect change and to motivate his cathcer? If the answer is yes-it will not work. As a famouse politician once said”have you no common decency?”
I might have more of a problem with this if I hadn’t already read Thole’s own comments first on his shortcomings last year.
Not sure about going so far as to ‘publicly’ tell him he still has to earn his primary catcher spot but I got the impression Thole and TC were already on the same page concerning what he needs to work on.
TC might be a little too vocal or honest with the media. We’ll see how that plays out this year.
And yeah, no argument from me on all of Pelfrey’s woes being blamed on Thole. I don’t think so…..
Some of Pelfrey’s inability to hold runners on base belongs to Dan Warthen.
Yes but only in regards to the fact that Warthen worries about his physical mechanics and has done nothing for his mental mechanics which is where all of Pelfrey’s problems lay!
Pelfrey approaches each pitch like the rest of them never happened!
He focuses only on what he wants to throw right then and now without regard for what came before and what he plans to throw next!
And he focuses so much on what pitch he is going to throw and how geat he is going to throw it he forgets there are 8 guys behind him and someone on base he needs to worry about!
And how many times was your work plainly view-able by millions of people in real time? The dynamic is different when you have a job that is very much in the public spotlight.
I couldn’t agree more Lou: humiliation and making a man feel embarrassed for shortcomings probably will never get you to get his best.
I coach adolescents in football, an there’s a fine line between showing your frustration and anger, and then alienating a kid with it. Pete Carroll (Seahawks coach) is kind of an ideal to me in this regard. Look what he did at USC. Of course, there are all different kinds of styles, and I don’t know exactly how TC talked to Thole, but criticism’s object has to be improvement as a result.
pro sports though are a different world, and ‘challengin” a guy like this has always been a part of the macho world.
Besides, I don’t think Terry said anything humiliating. He was talking about known issues. telling the truth like everyone always asks for!
If anything, it was simply sending the message that everyone had to earn their right to be there.
Right even in high school I purposely call out some in front of the team because one I know they can handle it, two I know it will motivate them, three I also know as a product of that it will motivate some of his teammates that I know can’t handle being called out. Example with this one, calling out Thole may actually motivate Thole, Rob and Mike. As with anything though, over-use would make it ineffective.
Let me commend you for coaching young folks. You are changing their lives for the positive and you can be proud of that. The BEST mentor and coach I have ever seen is Lou Holtz. I would observe him on the sidelines of Notre Dame football games and his demeanor and the way he handled his athletes and talked to them was special. Compare this to Terry Collins and see my frustration with his managerial style.
Do we really know Terry’s clubhouse or dugout managing style? All we know are the things the press gives us.
True, but I can only judge him on his public statements and what I observe.
I understand and that is why I think you have to use caution in making any judgement about his coaching style or ability.
Nobody said all of the pitching issues were because of Thole, but he did not do a good job behind the plate last year.
I have no problem with Collins saying this publicly, since it is something that has already been said and he discussed it with Thole first.
Its cling guys accountable–and it does not have to be done in private. This is not Little League. These guys cost money.
Well JDon let me ask you this…
Should your Boss walk out in front of everyone you work with and say If JDon doesn’t get his crap together he is going to be replaced?
Should he go on national TV or call the papers and do that too?
You get paid don’t you?
Or is something like that better left in the manager’s office one on one without all the Theatricality and public exposure?
Thole is a professional baseball player, not a call center employee.
I have no problem with what he did. Thole hasn’t earned a guaranteed starting job. And you don’t know what kind of discussions went on last year between Collins & Thole. Maybe they did speak in private and hes using a public forum as a last resort?
Ahh so Workplace Ethics and Employee respect do not apply?
You know I think it shouldn’t apply anywhere then!
Just because you chose a particular profession doesn’t mean the rules of proper Employer Employee conduct should go out the window!
In fact all it’s really going to achieve is lose the players faster for terry!
So far we have had two weeks of ST and Two guys called out in the press for bing on Terry’s shitlist!
GREAT JOB!
for most people in normal jobs, their job hunt, annual pay, etc. is not reported in minute detail on the internet and in the papers. And there isn’t a transaction column for when you get released.
and generally you don’t have to go to camp each year and compete for your job!
he gets paid a ton-is in an extremely competitive environment and is answerable to the press. next question.
Since when how much you get paid determines of you should be respected and treated like a Human?
Or is this more DNC Class Warfare where Screw the RICH PAY the POOR is the American Way!
I would love to see some of you face the behavior you support in your own lives!
You with your boss calling you out and Jessup getting fired for being 28 and too old!
It is clled the BIG leagues. Maybe they should just give everybody a trophy, declare him a winner in life, and send him home. Honesty has no place here. Kudos for Terry for telling it like it is. Everyone around here screams about the lies of the Wilpons and the evasions of the front office. I like Terry.
And your in the BIG LEAGUES for whatever it is you do for a living as well!
There is no MORE professional level of what you do above you is there?
There is just no reasoning with you as long as you think that playing major league baseball somehow equates with roofing or carpentry or technical work. Do you presently have a job? Do you get up and go to work every day? There is no template tht can be used for every work environment.
Sure there is one template for all!
It’s called RESPECT! and EVERY HUMAN BEING no matter what they do for a living should get it!
If you think otherwise then I feel sorry for the people around you!
Metsie — Alright, you’ve made your point repeatedly. Yes one should treat another human being with respect. But one should not browbeat another human being. Obliquely perhaps, but that is also a form of respect. Both aspects get to be tiring platitudes when constantly repeated.
Cheers to you and to all. Have a great day!
Des th lesson I’m getting across has much further ramifications than just how we treat baseball players!
A littl bit of putting yourself in other shoes would really do some good around here on this site wouldn’t you say?
I think people tend to forget that Thole was very promising and quite good in 2010. There’s no doubt that he regressed last season, but the term “sophomore slump” was coined for a reason. Before we declare that he’s not eveng good enough to be a backup or that Sandy should have brought in a glorified bullpen coach to “mentor” Thole, let’s see which Thole is the real one, 2010 or 2011.
Well Collins can say whatever he wants but he basically just threatened Thole with a foam rubber knife because lets face it who is he going to give the Job to instead? Nickeas?
I’m sure Thole is quaking in his boots over that notion! LOL
“I told him there was too much of that (demonstrating a waving, backhand glove action) that caused Dickey and others wild pitches they didn’t deserve.
Amen, Mets fans. But what took Terry and Warthen to implement some corrections for their interrelated problems. Should have been done last summer.
file that in the “warthen is useless” file (if you can cram anything else in there!)
I like the fact that TC being honest and putting the challenge to Thole. It’s time for Thole to put up or get the hell out of the way.
I also like Thole’s attitude coming into the season,he knows he has work to do and he’s working on it, but he also has the attitude that he believes he’s good enough to have the job.
I wish that we signed a vet like Pudge…look at what he did to help the Marlins young pitching staff? I think that’ something we could have used. But then again, there was a lot of things I wished Sandy did this off season, upgrading the catching position was probably #6 on the list..other than trading Pagan and kinda barely getting a closer, he didn’t do any of my “priorities”.
But I’m also not as down on Thole as others…his receiving sucked, but he’s shown he can be better…the big jump in SB’s I can point to Pelf as the primary reason. Non of the other pitchers had big problems with SB’s and Paulino showed a big jump in SB’s too…so I think it’s more than the catchers sucking as the reason.
Thole is young, he plays hard, he’s still learning…he has potential to be decent, but now’s the time to become a MLB catcher.
I see Thole becoming a Lo Duca type catcher…not “great” behind the plate, but passable, but also a good hitter with a little pop and doubles ability. I don’t expect a catcher to hit like Piazza, but you at least gotta be better than him catching and then show that there is value in your bat.
Here is what Thole Heard…
“If you don’t get your act together I’m going to replace a .268, .345, .344 hitter with a .189, .246, .264 hitter!”
Oh I’m sure he is as scared as a as Roy Halladay is facing Chin-lung Hu!
metsie, LMAO, how pathetic is our Catcher situation???!?!? Lmao, but hey, sandy alderson HAD A GOOD DAY, that’s all that matter to some people in this site
250 comments from now we could be looking at this comment as the reason we got completely off topic. However, I think most of us are bored of the Sandy conversation.
yeah why not turn it into another Bash Wilpon thread instead…
Afterall anything not hung on Sandy is Wilpon’s fault right?
I’m personally not blaming Sandy for not having a catcher…
I’m blaming Terry for threatening a player in public with being replaces with a guy who is barely Career AAAA!
Well, he IS the GM of the new york mets, he’s doing an awful job as the GM and some of us get crucified because we put him on display for the phony he is… Again, you were not part of the Sandy revolution in this site when he was hired, to peg someone as a genius and seeing the result we’ve gotten is very DISCOURAGIN to say the least!!!!!!
Yet, do you think there is even one person on this site that does not know how you feel about Sandy? If your job was to “expose” him then you have already achieved your goals on him and Wright. Why attempt to turn every conversation into the same tired sides discussion?
Why attempt to turn every conversation into the same tired sides discussion?”
I am not conversing with anyone, i am stating the OBVIOUS!!!! If you don’t like my comments you can not comment on them and move on, i don’t comment on some of the crap some people write here, i see it and if i see it’s not worth conversing on it i keep it ROLLING… i suggest you do the same!
Right, like how you even commented at all on the College post? You obviously had an interest in the article and felt your opinion was worthwhile.
Also, when you click “reply” that kinda means you are having a conversation.
You can hardly blame Alderson for not having a competent Major League catcher here after just being hired 18 months ago.
You couldn’t blame Minaya either when he got here for not having one either. Minaya was able to pick one up by the salary dumping Marlins but now times have changed. He was also able to sign a pretty decent catcher in Castro who was non tendered. Later he was able to trade an inherited asset for Schneider who sucked and bring up Santos and Thole who had almost as many minor league games at 1B as he did behind the plate but it’s the work he didn’t do in this area that is the reason we have no catcher to this day.
Washington has an outstanding backup in Jesus Flores who would be our starting catcher if Minaya hadn’t lost him in the rule 5 draft. Imagine if Alderson lost a 21 year old catcher who hit 21 HR’s in A+ because he signed someone to the 40 man roster one week before the draft. You guys would go bullshiiiittttt. And rightfully so. Especially if the guy he signed not only cost us our best catching prospect but also a #1 draft choice and then only made it through 1/2 of a season over two years. Two years in which we missed by 1 game each time.
Lots of the best catchers in MLB and the minors were signed and drafted from 2005-2010 and we got none of them. Many of them could have been selected with draft picks we gave up or could have taken back. Still others were signed internationally and a couple of them have recently been traded for ace and ace potential current pitchers and one for a washed up Matt Capps.
The only high draft choice Minaya spent on a catcher was a 3rd rounder in 2010 and Phillips and then Duquette never did. That’s 13 years and just one 3rd rounder, plus Francisco Pena (AA) and Albert Cordero (A+)
What do you want him to do materalize one out of thin air? Trade Harvey or Familia for one?
Not a lot of options out there to address this vital position neglected over and over again by Met GM after Met GM. In fact the only guy who did provide a decent catching candidate internationally in his one year here was Duquette (Flores), not Minaya in 6 years.
Who would have even thought that was possible?
I agree with a lot of the things you say but losing Flores was still not that big of a blow. The problem lies in the fact of seeing the organizations weak-point and never addressing it in the minors. I guess all hopes were that Pena would work out and he has so far been a bust.
So far
Flores: .253 .305 .394 .699
Thole: .276 .350 .356 .706
Well TRS those numbers weren’t known at the time Flores wasn’t protected. What was known was that he was our best and only catching candidate other than the just signed 16 year old Pena in rookie ball and going up to AA pretty damn close assuming continued development.
Secondly no way you can compare their stats since Flores, as a rule 5 had to be kept on the MLB roster, then got hurt and had to be kept on the next year as well and was basically a 3rd string guy who rarely played. He also got hurt during his rehab and missed another season so his entire career has been stop and start since we lost him and while you can compare their offensive stats there is absolutely no comparison defensively in any way shape or form.
Basically if we had just waited one week to sign Alou we would have had a roster spot for Flores before the draft and we probably keep our #1 pick as well. For a team that is so chronically undermanned at 5 or more positions every year to just give away guys for nothing is simply inexcusable and in this case is the primary reason we don’t have a capable Major league catcher yet again and right now who’s to say when we will?
Meanwhile Washington has two that are both better than ours, one of which we flat out gave them and he’s just their back up. The Nats also used a top catching prospect to get Gio and waved goodbye to a guy who would instantly be our best catcher.
Phillies have Valle in AA, Braves Bethancourt and Marlins Realmuto and all three of those guys would be our best catching prospect by a wide margin so my point is how can you lose a guy you already have when you could have signed Alou one week later?
Tell you the truth I don’t see us solving this position without giving up Niese or someone similar and that just makes us weaker elsewhere.
Flores was a terrific prospect with a great arm. He was also coming into his own as a hitter in 2009 when he got his throwing shoulder screwed up. It went from a shoulder bruise to a torn labrum. Ouch.
LoL, http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo?slug=ap-201203011047388782516
Burnett has an orbital fracture. Ouch.
https://twitter.com/#!/Pirates/status/175267150330728448
What was that?!!!??! The Macarena?
Sorry meant that for the post above this one
Off Topic:
David Wright on the expanded playoffs: “That would have been nice five years ago.”
LMAO… I am starting to like this new David wright.. First it was the U shirts and now this… he knows he and the team choke and is embracing the new opportunity imo.. good for him..
After you come to terms that this team isn’t competing for 1st place, relax and ride this
team out and see what develops.If Kirk makes the opening day lineup, Bay would be the only
non farm system starter. Are Pelfs #s that much better with other catchers? The Mets could have selected Grandal over Harvey, I think they got it right. I’ll buy a ticket to see a home
grown Mets team over the 50 years of revolving door stratogizing we have had.
So it’s between Nickeas and Thole? Yikes this is going to be one LONG season.